NOT mumbo Jumbo afterall? PSI for real

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Theoryofrelativity, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    deleted in protest to really poor moderation
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2007
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  3. D H Some other guy Valued Senior Member

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  5. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    the difference between you and I, is that I use the powers of PSI so debunked books to me are like you telling me name is not my name? irrelevant and nonsense, meanwhile the link I provide relates to 'science' you obviously never read it.
     
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  7. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    The power of PSI? Well, hell kid, go and take that million dollars off Randi, it's waiting for you! Until you do, I don't believe you though.

    And, why if you can demonstrate PSI, are you not demonstrating it to us, but linking us to some book instead?

    If you want to convince us, show us.
     
  8. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    I have no desire to convince you or anyone else of anything, I merely made the comment in order to explain that there was no point 'trying to convince' me PSI does not exist.

    The link I provided explains how science is beginning to be able to observe and explain these phenomena, so much so that soon it will not be phenomena anymore.

    The governements of the world already train and hire people for 'psychic' activities, remote veiwers etc, so it is already known to exist in real terms as why go to such lengths to train and employ people in this area. This is not what the thread is about, the thread is about how the science community is now recognising it. Which is fascinating.

    The link will explain why it is hard to test these things and it is very hit and miss thing. I myself dabbled with all things paranormal and occult when younger and did indeed do 'demonstrations' but they were always at my initiation, as to do these things (unless trained otherwise and I am not..amateur if you like) you have to be in a particular state of mind, which is not easy to do under stress conditions or to conjur up, more it's either there or its not.

    Try now to empty your mind of all thoughts (this is what is required for telepathy) how easy do you find it to think of nothing? it's not easy at all, and if you are being tested, most likely you'll be thinking about the test.
    Anyway, check out the link, and comment on that please...as for myself, I am not the subject, the link is.

    (ps, I'm not a kid, I'm way past my teenage yrs)
     
  9. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    Another quote from the link in first post:

    "This is for real?

    When discussing the reality of psi phenomena, especially from the scientific perspective, one question always hovers in the background: You mean this is for real? In the midst of all the nonsense and excessive silliness proclaimed in the name of psychic phenomena, the misinformed use of the term parapsychology by self-proclaimed "paranormal investigators," the perennial laughing stock of magicians and conjurers … this is for real?

    The short answer is, Yes.

    A more elaborate answer is, psi has been shown to exist in thousands of experiments. There are disagreements over to how to interpret the evidence, but the fact is that virtually all scientists who have studied the evidence, including the hard-nosed skeptics, now agree that there is something interesting going on that merits serious scientific attention. Later we’ll discuss the reasons why very few scientists and science journalists are aware of this dramatic shift in informed opinion.


    Shifting opinions

    The most important indication of a shift from Stage 1 to Stage 2 can be seen in the gradually changing attitudes of prominent skeptics. In a 1995 book saturated with piercing skepticism, the late Carl Sagan of Cornell University maintained his life-long mission of educating the public about science, in this case by debunking popular hysteria over alien abductions, channelers, faith-healers, the "face" on Mars, and practically everything else found in the New Age section of most bookstores. Then, in one paragraph amongst 450 pages, we find an astonishing admission:

    At the time of writing there are three claims in the ESP field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study: (1) that by thought alone humans can (barely) affect random number generators in computers; (2) that people under mild sensory deprivation can receive thoughts or images "projected" at them; and (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any other way than reincarnation.

    Other signs of shifting opinions are cropping up with increasing frequency in the scientific literature. Starting in the 1980s, well-known scientific journals like Foundations of Physics, American Psychologist, and Statistical Science published articles favorably reviewing the scientific evidence for psychic phenomena. The Proceedings of the IEEE, the flagship journal of the Institute for Electronic and Electrical Engineers, has published major debates on psi research. Invited articles have appeared in the prestigious journal, Brain and Behavioral Sciences. A favorable article on telepathy research appeared in 1994 in Psychological Bulletin, one of the top-ranked journals in academic psychology. And an article presenting a theoretical model for precognition appeared in 1994 in Physical Review, a prominent physics journal."
     
  10. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    I am in no doubt that your mind is empty.
     
  11. Cottontop3000 Death Beckoned Registered Senior Member

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    Nor am I, phlogistician.
     
  12. c'est moi all is energy and entropy Registered Senior Member

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    It al depends on the paradigm from which a scientist operates. In a mechanistic paradigm, all this must be necessarily rubbish and hence, explainable with fairly simple things (such as trickery) that can almost always be summurised as common sense. On the other hand, it cannot be denied that more and more people have left that old paradigm for a post-mechanistic one. Even in social sciences such a movement is beginning to surface. Many scientists believe that there is more in the mind than the old paradigm allows. Some speak out lout, some not. It is especially those who are not involved in any research, and with some degree of education, that like to make everyone believe that a good scientist is positivistic, materialistic and mechanistic (did I forget and -'stic' :d). Anyway, that doesn't matter. What matters is that those on the field itself are changing, not those hanging around on forums. For example, the holographic brain theory of Karl Pribram is gaining more support and attention as time proceeds. Why? Conventional neuronal computation theories are embedded in a Newtonian paradigm of matter. It opens virtual no new possibilites or ways of research and it can't explain a number of important things.

    I think it is all but normal that the common layman that does believe in psychic phenomena, immediately "jumps" on those scientists or published researches that have a much more positive attittude towards these (almost certainly as a result of a non-mechanistic world view). Mechanism has been surpressing the beliefs in such things as something in which only dumb or ignorant people believe - that is because mechanism has erroneously been mistaken for being more than a paradigm, it is reality. This must have caused great frustration over the years in the 'other' group (you can start counting app. from the publication of The principia by Newton - 1687). Because it became the prevailing paradigm (due to its great success of course), intellectuals were kind of forced to operate from within it. Beliefs about something more would remain something private, or simply something to discuss with collegues that are similar in this.

    On the other hand, the more "common" people's jobs didn't depend on such matter. They have probably expressed themselves more freely about it, but have most certainly in many cases been rediculised by others (non-scientists) who also merge(d) reality with a mechanistic paradigm. IMO, this has finally resulted in what we see today on forums such as these. On first sight, it seems that it is always the less educated, simpler people that like to believe in 'psi', whereas those who are "smarter" tend not (resulting in useless and unequal "debates"). This is an illusion for me. It's not reality as I have explained above. The topic of debate is even irrelevant in order to understand what is going in. It has to do with frustration, new paradigms, arrogance and the resulting social interaction. One is a fool if he were to participate in any such topic trying to discuss it honestly (sidenote: I am not participating on the topic. I'm exposing it the way I see it.)
     
  13. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    Not true at all. I'd love it to be true, and to discover how it works. But if it works, it works for real reasons, real, measurable reasons. PSI etc interacts with the real world allegedly, and if so, can be measured. That's mechanistic, and I look forward to someone being able to demonstrate a measurable effect.
     
  14. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    As most of what you say is already reiterated in some part in the link I have provided, then agreed, except for this part here.

    What part of this can you show evidence for? You say it's an illusion for you, yet you yourself have created that illsuion, scientists may have rejected PSI in the past but scientists themselves are NOT the most intelligent people on the planet and that is the illusion, that they are. They are merely individuals who chose to pursue that line if work.
     
  15. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    Phlo, I don't doubt that you have never been witness to any kind of what you call 'paranormal' experience or activity, as I know many people who have not. In light of which your skeptisism is entirely valid. I myself am skeptical of others experiences even though I know from my own, there is a lot we have yet to understand about the mechanics of the brain. Are random events measureable? Anyway read the link, I am sure the answers you seek are in there somewhere. Its a long link! I'll check it out more later.
     
  16. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    from link

    "Theme 2: Evidence

    Theme 2 discusses the main categories of psi experiments and the evidence that the effects seen in these experiments are genuinely replicable. The evidence is based on analysis of over a thousand experiments investigating various forms of telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition, psychic healing, and psychokinesis (presented in Chapters 6 through 10). The evidence for these basic phenomena is so well-established that most psi researchers today no longer conduct "proof-oriented" experiments. Instead, they focus largely on "process-oriented" questions like, What influences psi performance, and How does it work?

    Also presented are experiments exploring how psi interacts with more mundane aspects of human experience like unusual physical effects associated with the "mass mind" of groups of people (Chapter 11), psi effects in casino gambling and lottery games (Chapter 12), and applications of psi (Chapter 13).


    Theme 3: Understanding

    The wealth of scientific evidence discussed in Theme 2 will show that some psi phenomena exist, and that they are probably expressed in more ways than anyone had previously thought. The vast majority of the information used to make this case has been publicly available for years. One might expect then that the growing scientific evidence for genuine psi would have raised great curiosity. Funding would flow, and researchers around the world would be attempting to replicate these effects. After all, the implications of genuine psi are profoundly important for both theoretical and practical reasons. But this has not yet been the case. Few scientists are aware that any scientifically valid case can be made for psi, and fewer still realize that the cumulative evidence is highly persuasive"
     
  17. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    Have a stab at that sentence again, the double negative and contradiction in one sentence obfuscating the meaning.

    I think though, that you don't think I've ever witnessed anything 'paranormal'?Well, for one thing, the 'paranormal' does not exist. If things happen, they happen for reasons, and are therefore 'normal', however elusive and infrequent.

    But, have I had experiences that some may term 'paranormal'? Yes, but with a little thought and analysis, these things turn out to be statistical freaks, and coincidences.


    Mechanics, exactly. It is not paranormal, but physics and chemistry, if there is anything to this phenomena. BUT physicists and chemists find nothing when they look.

    YES! And when they are, they are covered by normal distribution curves, and fall within statistcally expected rates of coincidence!
     
  18. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    Don't waste time being pedantic.

    I said in my post, what 'you call paranormal' I also do not call these events paranormal, its just easier as this is the common understanding.

    ahhhhhhhh 'coincidence', a convenient word for the ignorant.

    Are you saying that physics and chemists know all there is to know about the human brain, as if you are then you are very misled. In time they will no doubt find the mechanism for these phenomena, they ARE looking. Why look for pink polka dot elephants, very expensive time wasting activity?
     
  19. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    from link "Shifting opinions

    Other signs of shifting opinions are cropping up with increasing frequency in the scientific literature. Starting in the 1980s, well-known scientific journals like Foundations of Physics, American Psychologist, and Statistical Science published articles favorably reviewing the scientific evidence for psychic phenomena. The Proceedings of the IEEE, the flagship journal of the Institute for Electronic and Electrical Engineers, has published major debates on psi research. Invited articles have appeared in the prestigious journal, Brain and Behavioral Sciences. A favorable article on telepathy research appeared in 1994 in Psychological Bulletin, one of the top-ranked journals in academic psychology. And an article presenting a theoretical model for precognition appeared in 1994 in Physical Review, a prominent physics journal.

    In the 1990s alone, seminars on psi research were part of the regular programs at the annual conferences of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Psychological Association, and the American Statistical Association. Invited lectures on the status of psi research were presented for diplomats at the United Nations, for academics at Harvard University, and for scientists at Bell Laboratories.

    NEW (not in the book): The first US patent for a psi effect was granted to Princeton University researchers on November 3, 1998. Patent "US 5830064" is entitled: Apparatus and method for distinguishing events which collectively exceed chance expectations and thereby controlling an output. This patent specifically covers distant mental control of electronic random number generator outputs.

    The Pentagon has not overlooked these activities.

    From 1981 to 1995, five different US government-sponsored scientific review committees were given the task of reviewing the evidence for psi effects. The reviews were prompted by concerns that if psi was genuine, it might be important for national security reasons. We would have to assume that foreign governments would exploit psi if they could."
     
  20. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    It was a badly constructed, ambiguous sentence, and that does not aid debate. Pay more attention to your prose.


    I don't call anything paranormal, so get off your high horse.

    Random coincidences can and do happen. Ignoring this fact is ignorance actually. For instance, you only need a group of 23 people to have a 50/50 chance of two people sharing the same birthday. Many would consider this odd, but it's just maths.

    No, I'm not saying that, what I am saying is there is NO evidence for PSI, despite all the books that are SOLD on the subject. Real science isn't sold, it's distributed in peer reviewed journals. You might think that random occurrences are significant, but real scientists don't.
     
  21. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    No I won't pay attention to my prose, that's not why I am posting, if I wanted prose lessons I'd join an English forum.

    Clearly you haven't read any of the info I've posted or the link as you will see there are publications in peer reviewed journals.

    quote from my previous post (which you clearly did not read) "A favorable article on telepathy research appeared in 1994 in Psychological Bulletin, one of the top-ranked journals in academic psychology. And an article presenting a theoretical model for precognition appeared in 1994 in Physical Review, a prominent physics journal." There was also 5 page paper in science mag.

    It's much wiser to say "I'm skeptical, but I'll keep an open mind until proof is presented" than say "it doesn't exist until proof is presented" as that is just plain ('scuse my prose') stooooooopid.

    I started off this thread with a link and quote form that link, not becuase I expect to convince anyone of PSI but because the scientific world is doing so. What a waste of time, when people like yourself, ignore it. Why participate in the thread at all. You are missing it's entire purpose, which is to review what it says then argue the points if you can! Not just spout old fashioned 'the world is flat' until proved otherwise theories.
     
  22. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    You are a bit vague on the exact identity of these peer reviewed papers, or I have missed the direct link to any of them.

    Could you point out which peer reviewed articles you are talking about exactly?
     
  23. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    Please read the link posted originally then get back to me, that's all I'm saying now, no point continuing this debate without understanding of topic?
     

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