Phoenix Mars Mission Landing Celebration
Sunday, May 25, 2008 from 3:00 - 8:00 p.m.
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/



Intense Testing Paved Phoenix Road to Mars
05.09.08 -- When NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander descends to the surface of the Red Planet on May 25, few will be watching as closely as the men and women who have spent years planning, analyzing and conducting tests to prepare for the dramatic and nerve-wracking event known as EDL - Entry, Descent and Landing

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/index.html

Phoenix Mars Mission Landing Celebration
Sunday, May 25, 2008 from 3:00 - 8:00 p.m.
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/



Intense Testing Paved Phoenix Road to Mars
05.09.08 -- When NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander descends to the surface of the Red Planet on May 25, few will be watching as closely as the men and women who have spent years planning, analyzing and conducting tests to prepare for the dramatic and nerve-wracking event known as EDL - Entry, Descent and Landing

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/index.html

That'd suck if it landed 50 feet from something interesting that it couldn't analyze. :bawl:
I think they should have made this lander mobile.

wow...this is very exciting news, I hope it all goes well

hey when I go to that site that cosmictraveler posted it says that I am "You are cordially invited:" ...am I that special? or do other see it 2?

hey when I go to that site that cosmictraveler posted it says that I am "You are cordially invited:" ...am I that special? or do other see it 2?

Anyone can go there and watch along with those that also are there. It is an open invitation to anyone that lives around the area I'd think but as is stated, you are invited as well wherever you may come from.;)

Phoenix on Course for May 25 Mars Landing
05.22.09 -- With three days and 3 million miles left to fly before arriving at Mars, NASA's Phoenix spacecraft is on track for its destination in the Martian arctic.
Read more

Today on the Phoenix Blog: Science Team Preps for Landing
05.22.09 -- As Phoenix approaches its final destination, the science team in Tucson, Arizona, is discussing how to divide up the digging area once the spacecraft is safely on Mars.
Go to blog, post your comments

Phoenix Mission Briefings
May 22, 2:30 p.m. (11:30 a.m. Pacific)
May 24, 3:00 p.m. (12:00 p.m. Pacific)
May 25, 3:00 p.m. (12:00 p.m. Pacific)

Other people watch "the game" I watch rocket launches and space probe landings, is there something wrong with that?

I got the wide screen set to NASA TV and I got my little beer hat all readily for this one on Sunday, GOOOOOOO PHOENIX !!! But I haven't change the Beer in it since the last shuttle launch.

wow ElectricFetus, if you weren't a lesbian I would marry you

wow ElectricFetus, if you weren't a lesbian I would marry you

I was thinking you would say something about how since I don't support human spaceflight I should not support rocket launches and unmanned space flight, but instead you managed to surprise me with your ignorance.

I was thinking you would say something about how since I don't support human spaceflight I should not support rocket launches and unmanned space flight, but instead you managed to surprise me with your ignorance.

oh yeah...you don't support humans spaceflight, that's not cool.

oh yeah...you don't support humans spaceflight, that's not cool.

We been over this: leave space to humanities successor (a successor that aren't limited by food, water, air, mortality and animal desires), keep the talking monkeys on this mud ball. Space should be the realm of the post-humans.

We been over this: leave space to humanities successor (a successor that aren't limited by food, water, air, mortality and animal desires), keep the talking monkeys on this mud ball. Space should be the realm of the post-humans.

what post-humans?! Are you back to that energy ball thing again? Humans need to expand to stars before it is too late.

what post-humans?! Are you back to that energy ball thing again? Humans need to expand to stars before it is too late.

Too late for what? In 100 years or more humans will be obsolete, any humans in space will simply be in the way.

what post-humans?! Are you back to that energy ball thing again? Humans need to expand to stars before it is too late.

Just a reminder that radiation as well as cosmic particles destroy DNA as well as other cells in the human body. There's no solution to prevent some of these radioactive particles from getting through to the humans on board a spaceship of any type made with todays materials. So until humans can eliminate these deadly types of particles , humans shouldn't go into a long space voyage whatsoever. There is no shielding made that can prevent all particles from hitting the space craft and causing catastrophic damages to the entire human biological system.

cosmic read it: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/25aug_plasticspaceships.htm

We need to have many humans in space, so that those who possess the genes for faster DNA regeneration will live and will give birth to children who have those genes. We need to start this evolution of human adaptation to space as fast as we can so that the bones of those who have the most calcium absorption will be passed on and those who do not will die.

cosmic read it: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/25aug_plasticspaceships.htm

"Plastic is an appealing alternative: Compared to aluminum, polyethylene is 50% better at shielding solar flares and 15% better for cosmic rays."

Which means it can't stop all of the rays at all, only helps a little bit, so what do you want me to say? It still won't protect the humans very much.

"Plastic is an appealing alternative: Compared to aluminum, polyethylene is 50% better at shielding solar flares and 15% better for cosmic rays."

Which means it can't stop all of the rays at all, only helps a little bit, so what do you want me to say? It still won't protect the humans very much.

fine...what about plasma shielding? having ionized gas around the spaceship rotated and be used to absorb any other radiation.

read: http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/cold_plasma_000724.html

We need to have many humans in space, so that those who possess the genes for faster DNA regeneration will live and will give birth to children who have those genes. We need to start this evolution of human adaptation to space as fast as we can so that the bones of those who have the most calcium absorption will be passed on and those who do not will die.

Or we could just upload humans into robotic bodies. I guarantee you we will do that before we "breed" people for space flight.

Or we could just upload humans into robotic bodies.

And than what? Humans do not want to have a body made of metallic junk, plus this so called "uploading" is nowhere to be 100% efficient at transferring all of the personality of a human. And we all rather have flesh than metal. Like if I hugged you, you might squeek* being displeased and all...but if your were made a metal and I would plug my electrical cord to your electrical cord...well that just lacks the emotional curiosity that made our existence so worthwile.

And than what? Humans do not want to have a body made of metallic junk, plus this so called "uploading" is nowhere to be 100% efficient at transferring all of the personality of a human. And we all rather have flesh than metal. Like if I hugged you, you might squeek* being displeased and all...but if your were made a metal and I would plug my electrical cord to your electrical cord...well that just lacks the emotional curiosity that made our existence so worthwile.
Well by the time we can download ourselves into robot bodies (or even better, bodies made of nanites) we should have virtual reality, so you can perceive your robot body life however you want. Like The Matrix, except you're in control of the program.

Personally I think venturing deep into space in flesh and bone bodies will never happen, they're just too fragile.

As for OT, isn't the Discovery channel doing a live show for the landing?

Or we could just upload humans into robotic bodies. I guarantee you we will do that before we "breed" people for space flight.

It would be better to send AI robots!! That way there's little costs involved and humans will be safe. I just don't understand why a human must go into space when we all know of the great deadly dangers as well as very expensive costs involved. Robots will be but a fraction of cost and disposable as well.

Well by the time we can download ourselves into robot bodies (or even better, bodies made of nanites) we should have virtual reality, so you can perceive your robot body life however you want. Like The Matrix, except you're in control of the program.

oh yeah? with 8 minute lag on planet Mars...in virtual environment?! :bugeye: never happening.

It would be better to send AI robots!! That way there's little costs involved and humans will be safe. I just don't understand why a human must go into space when we all know of the great deadly dangers as well as very expensive costs involved. Robots will be but a fraction of cost and disposable as well.

because robots are not humans, this is human civilization. We are humans, we as majority have intent to live on and reproduce and expand to the universe and conquer all there is. AI robots are just tools, they are not us.

And than what? Humans do not want to have a body made of metallic junk, plus this so called "uploading" is nowhere to be 100% efficient at transferring all of the personality of a human. And we all rather have flesh than metal. Like if I hugged you, you might squeek* being displeased and all...but if your were made a metal and I would plug my electrical cord to your electrical cord...well that just lacks the emotional curiosity that made our existence so worthwile.

want is of no need when your immortal and can take any form you want, think beyond the limitations of human brains. If there is something you desire you can
1) simulating it a VR where you can experience anything in ways far more profound then reality can provide.
2) you can simply reprogram your self to be free of any desire or emotion that you find bothersome of difficult to appease.

our existence is grossly limited compared to what technology could do to us, I would say that is more worthwhile,

As for the efficiency of uploading: your going to die, would you rather be dead and gone like tears in the rain, or would you rather as much of you as possible live on, forever, to see things you will never live to see? To solve the existential problems of being uploaded it simply can be implemented as soon as you die, thus it leaves no duplicate problem, also the process of uploading may in fact be lethal as is, best to do it when your already dead.

you know guys I participated a bit in the Phoenix Program, before the thing was sent to Mars...I did some work on the mass spectrometer instrument. But that is like 1/1,000,000th of the work made for Phoenix.

oh yeah? with 8 minute lag on planet Mars...in virtual environment?! :bugeye: never happening.
How is that any different than dealing with lag between Earth and Mars in the "real world"?

want is of no need when your immortal and can take any form you want, think beyond the limitations of human brains. If there is something you desire you can
1) simulating it a VR where you can experience anything in ways far more profound then reality can provide.
2) you can simply reprogram your self to be free of any desire or emotion that you find bothersome of difficult to appease.

our existence is grossly limited compared to what technology could do to us, I would say that is more worthwhile,

As for the efficiency of uploading: your going to die, would you rather be dead and gone like tears in the rain, or would you rather as much of you as possible live on, forever, to see things you will never live to see? To solve the existential problems of being uploaded it simply can be implemented as soon as you die, thus it leaves no duplicate problem, also the process of uploading may in fact be lethal as is, best to do it when your already dead.

Exactly our existence is grossly limited, and even in that limitation I get other limitations like your rejection of my adoration of you.

As for death, I rather die and be born in a new body of a child (such is my reincarnation belief) than continue my existence in metal junk. I want to experience this life over and over again in faces of other people.

How is that any different than dealing with 8 minute lag between Earth and Mars in the "real world"?

I am talking about comparing it to live people on Mars, in comparison to robots controlled via virtual environment from Earth with 8 minute lag.

Exactly our existence is grossly limited, and even in that limitation I get other limitations like your rejection of my adoration of you.

As for death, I rather die and be born in a new body of a child (such is my reincarnation belief) than continue my existence in metal junk. I want to experience this life over and over again in faces of other people.

You can do that, in a VR and make your self completely unaware that it isn't real.

You can do that, in a VR and make your self completely unaware that it isn't real.

well than it isn't space...whats the point :shrug:

Look all of you space haters, begone. Humans will conquer the stars, and not some metal junk. The time will come when humans will live and prosper across Solar System and beyond.

I am talking about comparing it to live people on Mars, in comparison to robots controlled via virtual environment from Earth with 8 minute lag.
Ah, I'm talking about in the future. We'll probably send a manned mission to Mars before all this talk about robot bodies and virtual existence happens.

But sending human bodies to other star systems seems like way too much hassle. You have to worry about food, water, air, radiation, acceleration, gravity, aging, disease, social problems (what do you do cooped up in a metal can on a 20 year voyage?) and so on. With artificial bodies all of those problems can be side stepped.

well than it isn't space...whats the point :shrug:

the server you reside in can be anywhere, on earth, the moon, and asteroid, alpha centari.

lets say you want to live on a colony on alpha centari, we send a small high speed robotic probe to there, it setup a communication system, you then upload your self there at the speed of light, set up your colony to what ever standard you like, grow a bioroid body for your self and live the good life with a scenic view like this:

http://www.kulmann.de/alpha_centauri_b2.jpg

your bioroid body can live for thousand of years or as long as you want, and when your done you can upload your self to another star system, slit into many, remerge into one, or merge into others, no limits.

ElectricFetus...until than we got to go to space as humans in our own bodies we were born with. Because we dont have this "uploading" technology you speak of and it lacks ethical principles.

ElectricFetus...until than we got to go to space as humans in our own bodies we were born with. Because we dont have this "uploading" technology you speak of and it lacks ethical principles.

We don't have the technology to colonize space either. Ethics, talking monkeys think that have morality, they are just animals that have made rules to try and not kill each other like the animals they are! Our successors will have real ethics, ethics not limited by the desires of a talking monkey!

We don't have the technology to colonize space either. Ethics, talking monkeys think that have morality, they are just animals that have made rules to try and not kill each other like the animals they are! Our successors will have real ethics, ethics not limited by the desires of a talking monkey!

yea well you and I are these "talking monkeys" and I have a duty to my kind to expand the reign of our civilization and give it a place by the stars.

yea well you and I are these "talking monkeys" and I have a duty to my kind to expand the reign of our civilization and give it a place by the stars.

duty? Talking monkeys have no such duties other then to eat, sleep and make more talking monkeys. They are a step in evolution doom to replacement, they are malformed species and spreading their waring, hating, ignorant kind across the galaxy would be a notorious crime! Once they have evolve beyond killing each other, beyond hate, beyond instinct and animalistic impulses then they can take over the stars, but when that happens they won't be human.

duty? Talking monkeys have no such duties other then to eat, sleep and make more talking monkeys. They are a step in evolution doom to replacement, they are malformed species and spreading their waring, hating, ignorant kind across the galaxy would be a notorious crime! Once they have evolve beyond killing each other, beyond hate, beyond instinct and animalistic impulses then they can take over the stars, but when that happens they won't be human.

you be that. Meanwhile, I am an evolved monkey with duties.

you be that. Meanwhile, I am an evolved monkey with duties.

and evolved monkey is still an animal.

and evolved monkey is still an animal.

yea well I got sense of holiness in me and universal connection. And I am yet to find another "monkey-matey" girl for me....because currently only L monkeys here and there. :cool:

We don't have the technology to colonize space either. Ethics, talking monkeys think that have morality, they are just animals that have made rules to try and not kill each other like the animals they are! Our successors will have real ethics, ethics not limited by the desires of a talking monkey!
were you drunk when you typed this?

Anyway humans aren't as bad as you think, robots will be a reality before the first mannend mars mission and their is nothing that indicates that uploading yourself is going to be possible in the near (100 year) future

were you drunk when you typed this?

Anyway humans aren't as bad as you think, robots will be a reality before the first mannend mars mission and their is nothing that indicates that uploading yourself is going to be possible in the near (100 year) future

There was nothing that indicated power flight would be possible in 100 years to the people back in 1808 either.

wow...this is very exciting news, I hope it all goes well

:eek:Yes, I think this is the first inter-planetary mission that NASA has done since 2005!:cool:

Sunday evening at 4:53 pm California time, we will know if the spacecraft made it to Mars safely.

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/183671main_ra2-mola-516.jpg


http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/623eeb211b.jpg

The spacecraft will land in the Northern Hemisphere of Mars...I presume thats Vastitas Borealis...

Mars...is beautiful.

13 hours to go till touchdown...this is it people...

Sunday at 4:53 p.m. Pacific Time is the first possible time for confirmation that Phoenix has landed. The landing would have happened 15 minutes earlier on Mars, but the radio signals take 15 minutes to travel from Mars to Earth at the distance separating the two planets today.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/release.php?ArticleID=1709

12 hours to go...

You know people the reason this mission is so much more important than all the previous missions is because it is landing on an area of Mars were there is actually been detected high concentrations of water...frozen...but water neverthless, which is of course a precursor to life

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoenix/status.html
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html

You know people the reason this mission is so much more important than all the previous missions is because it is landing on an area of Mars were there is actually been detected high concentrations of water...frozen...but water neverthless, which is of course a precursor to life

Perhaps it is only frozen nitrogen or carbon dioxide, now we might learn the truth.:shrug:

this is it 8h more waiting for a 10 days full system diagnostic... We should have a poll on wether it will crash or not

Perhaps it is only frozen nitrogen or carbon dioxide, now we might learn the truth.:shrug:

Frozen nitrogen or carbon dioxide, does not have hydrogen which is what was detected (by neutron detectors.) Water is the only likely source of that hydrogen, and their could be organics in that frozen water, life perhaps frozen that comes out ever few eons when the polar regions get warmer, just perhaps.

Perhaps it is only frozen nitrogen or carbon dioxide, now we might learn the truth.:shrug:

Frozen nitrogen is highly unlikely since it freezes at 69.1 K and the lowest temp on Mars is 139 K.

I know someone who's name is on the lander.

the phoenix entered mars atmosphere.

Landed.

its funny to see all those scientists happy.

What's up with the bald guy and the thing stuck to his head? I guess he's making the best of his baldness?

Think thats funny; imagine if it exploded :p
The look on thier faces would be priceless (though, it would came at a very high price too.)

Is there a full mission schedual somewhere? When do they start with the data collection?

-Andrew

when do they find bumble bee?

Great job, well done to everyone involved with that project!! Now lets hope it will send back information. :)

Great job, well done to everyone involved with that project!! Now lets hope it will send back information. :)

the real project is humans on mars. ive always wanted to go.

the real project is humans on mars. ive always wanted to go.

Exploration, no matter how it is accomplished, will be needed by many diverse ways to study the universe before humankind can reach out.

Exploration, no matter how it is accomplished, will be needed by many diverse ways to study the universe before humankind can reach out.

i hope not.

http://www.smallartworks.ca/Gallery/EnterpriseA/Beauty1.JPG

Humans need to understand space and prepair for travel in it SAFELY and cost effectively utilizing all peoples from many countries to accomplish this goal for humanity.

Humans need to understand space and prepair for travel in it SAFELY and cost effectively utilizing all peoples from many countries to accomplish this goal for humanity.

thats not gonna happen in the near future. there are too many humans who hate each other over meaningless things. just look how many of them come here, and they are supposed to be intellectuals.

thats not gonna happen in the near future. there are too many humans who hate each other over meaningless things. just look how many of them come here, and they are supposed to be intellectuals.

Look at the ISS, it has over 15 countries working with it. It can be done if humans want to do it. ;)

yay!

Look at the ISS, it has over 15 countries working with it. It can be done if humans want to do it. ;)

bur of course. only problem is humans are self centered monkeys with an inferiority complex.

there are too many humans who hate each other over meaningless things. just look how many of them come here, and they are supposed to be intellectuals.

bur of course. only problem is humans are self centered monkeys with an inferiority complex.

Heh.

thats not gonna happen in the near future. there are too many humans who hate each other over meaningless things. just look how many of them come here, and they are supposed to be intellectuals.

Careful - don't use THIS place as any sort of gage!! It seems that the majority here are just kids that have barely mastered tying their shoes. They've still got a LONG way to go before becoming intellectuals.

Want proof? Look at the popularity of threads like "Star Wars vs. whatever."

Yes, we do have some pretty smart people here but they are definitely in the minority.

It seems they are not publically showing the pictures Phoenix got from Mars...

Careful - don't use THIS place as any sort of gage!! It seems that the majority here are just kids that have barely mastered tying their shoes. They've still got a LONG way to go before becoming intellectuals.

Want proof? Look at the popularity of threads like "Star Wars vs. whatever."

Yes, we do have some pretty smart people here but they are definitely in the minority.

i dont think so. just because they write there doesnt mean they arent grown man. and being an intellectual doesnt mean you have to be a fully grown man. or woman.

It seems they are not publically showing the pictures Phoenix got from Mars...

hu hu!!! they are hiding bumble bee!

hu hu!!! they are hiding bumble bee!

no seriously...usually they show the pictures right up, like they did with Spirit and Opportunity

no seriously...usually they show the pictures right up, like they did with Spirit and Opportunity

so? a malfunction or cover up?

It can't deploy it's equipment for about a half hour. With the rovers it was the same thing. Pictures weren't released until an hour or two after they landed.

~String

It seems they are not publically showing the pictures Phoenix got from Mars...

They said that the first picture wouldn't be sent for an hour and a half after landing or so. That would mean about another, what, 40 minutes or so?


Careful - don't use THIS place as any sort of gage!! It seems that the majority here are just kids that have barely mastered tying their shoes. They've still got a LONG way to go before becoming intellectuals.


Yes. Read Only is also strong in the dark side.
Irony is lovely.

There you go.
Pictures are coming in.

Some of the images:

http://fawkes4.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=8

hmmm...I expected the place to look more lively than that...at least some ice...but nope...

http://fawkes4.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_434.jpg

That was an awesome landing! Them counting down the altitude was just teeth shattering, even with MER we did not have that much data come up during the decent (Just toned beacon signals)!

Now they landed way eastward of what they wanted (maybe even out of the landing eclipses) that a little weird, I hope the soil still has ice for them.

http://spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoenix/images/color1.jpg

Electric Fetus...the whole Vastitas Borealis has got water ice all over it as mapped by Odyssey 2001 probe

Electric Fetus...the whole Vastitas Borealis has got water ice all over it as mapped by Odyssey 2001 probe

It just one of the maps they showed on NASA tv showed spot of different terrain, wonder what that is, if if pure ice under a few cm of dust Phoenix could be in trouble as it can't dig through pure ice (only permafrost).

It just one of the maps they showed on NASA tv showed spot of different terrain, wonder what that is, if if pure ice under a few cm of dust Phoenix could be in trouble as it can't dig through pure ice (only permafrost).

nope in Vastitas Borealis...there is no pure ice.

nope in Vastitas Borealis...there is no pure ice.

We can only hope.

A flat and featureless plain. No tectonic activity to produce mountains.

A flat and featureless plain. No tectonic activity to produce mountains.

its low altitude too...all across the northern hemisphere

"ESA completed a key step in its ongoing support to NASA's Phoenix mission, when signals from the Phoenix Mars lander recorded by Mars Express were successfully received at ESA's Space Operations Centre (ESOC), Darmstadt, Germany. NASA has just made the first few images available."

Read more (http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM8IJ1YUFF_index_0.html)

Awesome picture!

http://spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoenix/images/mroparachute2.jpg

Yep, that a picture of it DURING decent to mars! MRO took this snap shot and was lucky enough to get a shot of it during the very few minutes of it riding the parachute down.

...Phoenix could be in trouble as it can't dig through pure ice (only permafrost).


/perplexed

lookee here
youse a biologist
how would you know that factoid?
and of nuke reactors and shit

/scratches head

/perplexed

lookee here
youse a biologist
how would you know that factoid?
and of nuke reactors and shit

/scratches head

1. It doesn't matter who I am.
2. they said so on one of these nasa briefings that the arm can't dig through solid ice, at best it can sample the surface of solid ice with a rasp on the back-hoes scoop.
3. I can READ! I READ stuff like nuclear reactors and shit, etc. Dam.

1. It doesn't matter who I am.
2. they said so on one of these nasa briefings that the arm can't dig through solid ice, at best it can sample the surface of solid ice with a rasp on the back-hoes scoop.
3. I can READ! I READ stuff like nuclear reactors and shit, etc. Dam.
ElectricFetus, the scoop on the arm can't dig through hard ice, but they added a grinding bit, picked up at a local hardware store, that can grind through very hard ice. In fact, it is the ground up particles of water ice that NASA will retrieve for the onboard labs. They think they can get the particles into the craft before the ice sublimates. The scoop is just for digging through surface soil to uncover the ice which lies below the surface.

I heard about it last summer. Anyways, I sort of wish that they found life, because our planet is becomming more unhabitable by the second. We would have a colony on Mars, wouldn't it be nice?

There's really very little wrong with the Earth. I like space exploration for the education that it gives and the way that it solves the "all of our eggs in one basket" problem.

I heard about it last summer. Anyways, I sort of wish that they found life, because our planet is becomming more unhabitable by the second. We would have a colony on Mars, wouldn't it be nice?

Not really because they wouyld need a constant supply of goods from earth and they always will be in space suits if they go out onto the Martian surface. The average temperatures range fron 200 below zero to 200 above zero, not very easy to live in those conditions as well as no oxygen and being hit with enormous amounts of radiation.:(

If you have water, you have pretty much everything. Actually, the next thing to look for is nitrogen. That might be harder to find than water.

I have believed for a while that Mars may be rich in metals because it's a lot like a stripped core of a planet.

If you have water, you have pretty much everything. Actually, the next thing to look for is nitrogen. That might be harder to find than water.

I have believed for a while that Mars may be rich in metals because it's a lot like a stripped core of a planet.

You don't have oxygen. You can't stop radiation from killing you either.

You don't have oxygen. You can't stop radiation from killing you either.

H2O? Shelters built from the native soil or ice? Hello?

H2O? Shelters built from the native soil or ice? Hello?

So you want to live underground without sunlight? You can do that here on Earth , why leave Earth then? :shrug:

Because there are way too many hot martian babes that need attending to.

I believe our species should stay on earth, and die on earth, space is for our successor.

ElectricFetus, the scoop on the arm can't dig through hard ice, but they added a grinding bit, picked up at a local hardware store, that can grind through very hard ice. In fact, it is the ground up particles of water ice that NASA will retrieve for the onboard labs. They think they can get the particles into the craft before the ice sublimates. The scoop is just for digging through surface soil to uncover the ice which lies below the surface.

I know that, I can listen, the grinding bit is only for rasping the surface of ice in which they can get enough particles to sample (and quickly) but it can't dig through the ice.

I believe that our species thrives (psychologically and biologically) on colonization, and that these steps should be more concertedly promoted officially as part of that instinct/imperative.

REDCOLONY (http://www.redcolony.com/)

........http://www.marssociety.org/MDRS/images/msftr01.jpg
Mars is not just a scientific curiosity; it is a world with a surface area equal to all the continents of Earth combined, possessing all the elements that are needed to support not only life, but technological society. It is a New World, filled with history waiting to be made by a new and youthful branch of human civilization that is waiting to be born. We must go to Mars to make that potential a reality. We must go, not for us, but for a people who are yet to be. We must do it for the Martians.
The Mars Society (http://www.marssociety.org/)


We are the consciousness of the universe, and our job is to spread that around, to go look at things, to live everywhere we can. It's too dangerous to keep the consciousness of the universe on one planet; it could be wiped out. Mars will always remain Mars, different from Earth, colder and wilder. But it can be Mars and ours at the same time. And it will be. There is this about the human mind: if it can be done, it will be done. We can do it, so we will do it. So we might as well start.-Kim Stanley Robinson (http://www.redcolony.com/features.php?name=whycolonizemars)

Robinson's sole "consciousness of the universe" concept is pretentious, but the sentiment and imperative is still valid.

So you want to live underground without sunlight? You can do that here on Earth , why leave Earth then? :shrug:

because we need to expand to space, Earth will not be enough.

yeah kind of what the conquistadors said about the "new world": "We got to expand into it, spain is not enough!"

It's true: I've lived in Spain and loved it, but... it's still true. It also seems that we won't have the ethical downside of destroying other civilisatons in this case, and we may save our own in the process. Seems eminently worthwhile to me.

It's true: I've lived in Spain and loved it, but... it's still true. It also seems that we won't have the ethical downside of destroying other civilisatons in this case, and we may save our own in the process. Seems eminently worthwhile to me.

no, we will be spreading human war, hate and general stupidity across the heavens. Read about the technological singularity and the transhumanist manifesto.

So you want to live underground without sunlight? You can do that here on Earth , why leave Earth then? :shrug:

Because it is one more place that humanity can make a home for a few million people. Because we can. I haven't actually checked to find out if Mars's atmosphere prevents overexposure to radiation from solar flares.

no, we will be spreading human war, hate and general stupidity across the heavens. Read about the technological singularity and the transhumanist manifesto.

So what? It's a natural part of human existence. We are no different than any other animal in that way. They fight, we fight. It's natural. And yet will still manage, as a race, to show some discretion in that violence. I'd say we do pretty damn well for ourselves.

And as far as "spreading" the hate, there's nobody else around to influence or topple, so it's no worry. The Solar System is ours to explore and colonize.

ElectricFetus: "[war, hate and general stupidity are] a natural part of human existence."

We are capable of consciously, deliberately evolving beyond and leaving behind our most primitive behavioral baggage- efficient pioneering of worlds beyond our own may even insist that we do so. To paraphrase the famed Astronaut Buzz Lightyear: "To Stupidity and Beyond!"

I wonder just who will own Mars? Let us say humans do colonize Mars then who reaps the material rewards of what it offers? :shrug: Is it going to belong to just one nation to exploit or is it going to be first come first served?:(

ElectricFetus: "[war, hate and general stupidity are] a natural part of human existence."

We are capable of consciously, deliberately evolving beyond and leaving behind our most primitive behavioral baggage- efficient pioneering of worlds beyond our own may even insist that we do so. To paraphrase the famed Astronaut Buzz Lightyear: "To Stupidity and Beyond!"

Ha! Good luck believing in such idealism, a handful of idealist and alturist is possible, but a colony? No with enough people your going to get all the problems that people have.

JDawg,

See: appeal to nature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature). Just like every other animal on earth we should stay on earth! The solar system is much easy to explore with machines, and the technology needed to colonize space is nearly as radical as the technology needed to revise the human mind and body.

Fresh images sent back by NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander during its first full day operating in the Martian northern polar region showed most of its science instruments in good health, mission scientists said.
The one snag on the lander occurred when the protective sheath around the trench-digging robotic arm failed to unwrap all the way after touchdown and now covers the arm's elbow joint.

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/190/pho21ox4.th.jpg (http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pho21ox4.jpg)
Expand (http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/190/pho21ox4.jpg) (199kb, 1280 x 880)
Credit NASA/JPL/University of Arizona

Read more (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24838828/)

MRO found waldo:

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/230854main_PSP_008591_2485_RGB_Lander_Inserts_516-387.jpg

This is too good :D notice something?

http://www.stevethecat.com/images/mars/steve_phoenix_lander_02.jpg (http://www.stevethecat.com/mars.htm)

That's a fake, right?

That's a fake, right?

Click it and see for your self.

Fresh images sent back by NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander during its first full day operating in the Martian northern polar region showed most of its science instruments in good health, mission scientists said.
The one snag on the lander occurred when the protective sheath around the trench-digging robotic arm failed to unwrap all the way after touchdown and now covers the arm's elbow joint.

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/190/pho21ox4.th.jpg (http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pho21ox4.jpg)
Expand (http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/190/pho21ox4.jpg) (199kb, 1280 x 880)
Credit NASA/JPL/University of Arizona

Read more (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24838828/)

that white thing in top left is a parachute, right?

http://www.stevethecat.com/images/mars/phoenix_dvd_installation.jpg

By the way, there's the DVD with my friend's name on it. Hope the Martians have a good DVD drive.

Only 1 DVD to take? No case? Cheapskates.

Only 1 DVD to take? No case? Cheapskates.

it could be worse: if that DVD is made of plastic it will decay under the ionizing radiation flux into goo in a few thousand years anyway. Silicon oxide and gold would make for a long lasting DVD (though brittle).

that white thing in top left is a parachute, right?

Hum,
could be the backshell

Colour View to Northwest of NASA Mars Phoenix Lander

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3918/pho1nw3ix9.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pho1nw3ix9.jpg)
Expand (http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3918/pho1nw3ix9.jpg) (192kb, 793 x 1280)
Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/University of Arizona/Texas A&M University

...there's the DVD with my friend's name on it.

Hum,
i managed to get my name on there too.

This is too good :D notice something?

Cleanwroom-

You're doin it wrong!

This is too good :D notice something?

Mai new litterboks, yezz this will do nicely...

A bolt from the Lander?

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9066/phobolt1tr1.th.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phobolt1tr1.jpg)
Credit: NASA/JPL-Calech/University of Arizona

it could be worse: if that DVD is made of plastic it will decay under the ionizing radiation flux into goo in a few thousand years anyway. Silicon oxide and gold would make for a long lasting DVD (though brittle).

It's actually made of silica glass, apparently.
"As part of our Messages from Earth project, The Planetary Society collected names to travel to Mars on board the Phoenix lander. I'm happy to announce the silica glass mini-DVD with a quarter million names on it (including all Planetary Society members) has been installed on the Phoenix spacecraft and is ready to go to Mars!

In addition to the names, the disc also contains Visions of Mars, a collection of literature and art about the Red Planet. The names and Visions of Mars were written to the silica mini-DVD by the company Plasmon OMS using a special technique. The resulting archival disk should last at least hundreds of years on the Martian surface, ready to be picked up by future explorers.

After the disc was written, a special label was applied to the disc to identify it for future explorers. Then, the whole assembly was "baked out" (to kill microbes and also to reduce future outgassing of the materials), and Lockheed Martin in Colorado installed it onto the spacecraft."
http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/messages/20070523.html

Ice?
http://planetary.org/image/lg_1018.jpg
http://planetary.org/blog/article/00001481/

It's actually made of silica glass, apparently.
"As part of our Messages from Earth project, The Planetary Society collected names to travel to Mars on board the Phoenix lander. I'm happy to announce the silica glass mini-DVD with a quarter million names on it (including all Planetary Society members) has been installed on the Phoenix spacecraft and is ready to go to Mars!

In addition to the names, the disc also contains Visions of Mars, a collection of literature and art about the Red Planet. The names and Visions of Mars were written to the silica mini-DVD by the company Plasmon OMS using a special technique. The resulting archival disk should last at least hundreds of years on the Martian surface, ready to be picked up by future explorers.

After the disc was written, a special label was applied to the disc to identify it for future explorers. Then, the whole assembly was "baked out" (to kill microbes and also to reduce future outgassing of the materials), and Lockheed Martin in Colorado installed it onto the spacecraft."
http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/messages/20070523.html

Silica glass = Silicon oxide
But good, now it will actually last for eons (Figure the reflective side is gold)

I heard the scoop finally got to the sand to the gas analyzer instrument and MECA( Microscopy, Electrochemistry and Conductivity Analyzer ).

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/md_4865.jpg

I think it will take a week for the analysis to get the results of the soil.

there isalready some dust on those solar panels

Just a reminder that radiation as well as cosmic particles destroy DNA as well as other cells in the human body. There's no solution to prevent some of these radioactive particles from getting through to the humans on board a spaceship of any type made with todays materials. So until humans can eliminate these deadly types of particles , humans shouldn't go into a long space voyage whatsoever. There is no shielding made that can prevent all particles from hitting the space craft and causing catastrophic damages to the entire human biological system.

Do you have any numbers to back this up? Studies?

I heard the scoop finally got to the sand to the gas analyzer instrument and MECA( Microscopy, Electrochemistry and Conductivity Analyzer ).

The robotics that they have are this slow and awkward, and we've been working on robotics for how many years now?

Does anyone realize? Having an atmosphere on Mars makes it a lot easier to land because wind erosion creates much flatter plains with smaller rocks. A wheeled vehicle can land on that kind of terrain. The boulders on the moon take much longer to break down.

There is no shielding made that can prevent all particles from hitting the space craft and causing catastrophic damages to the entire human biological system.

Water.

Water.

Tons of it would be a help but then some cosmic rays will still penetrate even that amount. :(

The robotics that they have are this slow and awkward, and we've been working on robotics for how many years now?

NASA robotics are 10 to 15 years old due to the fact that they have to be tested in MIL spec chips that are highly dependable and every line hand coded for a specific application. NASA and most U.S. Government Labs do invent the wheel every time. That is why they spend so much of Tax dollars. Every electronics and circuit board is hand made. NASA does not like commercial off the shelf products, after all they have the most PhDs and hence feel, can do a better job.

NASA robotics are 10 to 15 years old due to the fact that they have to be tested in MIL spec chips that are highly dependable and every line hand coded for a specific application. NASA and most U.S. Government Labs do invent the wheel every time. That is why they spend so much of Tax dollars. Every electronics and circuit board is hand made. NASA does not like commercial off the shelf products, after all they have the most PhDs and hence feel, can do a better job.

I would not say that completely the problem, NASA has been forced in resent years to use "off the shelf" to save money, but RAD hardening the testing of equipment does mean nasa has to use technology that is many years behind it time: the RAD750 is just a radiation harden G3 processes and despite the fact that is has nearly 1/100 the processing power of todays computer its still the best CPU nasa can get for space, the next mars rover MSL will have a RAD750.

Most commercial off the shelf products are build to withstand vibrations while being transported on trucks while cushioned in styrofoam, to withstand only tiny radiation doses, and for operation at room temperature. Even equipment intended for use on Earth in extreme environments costs dearly. Ruggedized equipment is expensive. The most rugged environments on Earth pale in comparison to the vibrations induced by launch and Mars entry. Equipment receives a huge radiation dose between Earth and Mars and continue to receive a very high radiation dose while on Mars. Mar's weather is anything but room temperature. Whatever is sent to Mars has to be small and very miserly with respect to power consumption.

The avionics equipment are of the vehicle components most sensitive to vibration, radiation, and temperature. The kinds of avionics equipment that does meets these requirements is expensive and very far from state of the art. Now compound that with the fact that the avionics equipment is one of the earliest design decisions made in any space venture because the avionics are one of the vehicle components most critical to the mission. The avionics equipment is selected early on the mission design, and selected from equipment that is already out-of-date because of the need for rad and vibration hardening. Compound this with the fact that it takes time to design and build the vehicle, time to test it, time to transport it for launch, and time to transport it to Mars. It should come as no surprise that the equipment we send to Mars is ten years or so (or more) out of date.

I would not say that completely the problem, NASA has been forced in resent years to use "off the shelf" to save money, but RAD hardening the testing of equipment does mean nasa has to use technology that is many years behind it time: the RAD750 is just a radiation harden G3 processes and despite the fact that is has nearly 1/100 the processing power of todays computer its still the best CPU nasa can get for space, the next mars rover MSL will have a RAD750.

Why do not they use an external radiation shield case such as Hafnium/Zirconium sandwich or Depleted Uranium foil...then they can have the latest and greatest.....oh...well..

Most commercial off the shelf products are build to withstand vibrations while being transported on trucks while cushioned in styrofoam, to withstand only tiny radiation doses, and for operation at room temperature. Even equipment intended for use on Earth in extreme environments costs dearly. Ruggedized equipment is expensive. The most rugged environments on Earth pale in comparison to the vibrations induced by launch and Mars entry. Equipment receives a huge radiation dose between Earth and Mars and continue to receive a very high radiation dose while on Mars. Mar's weather is anything but room temperature. Whatever is sent to Mars has to be small and very miserly with respect to power consumption.

The avionics equipment are of the vehicle components most sensitive to vibration, radiation, and temperature. The kinds of avionics equipment that does meets these requirements is expensive and very far from state of the art. Now compound that with the fact that the avionics equipment is one of the earliest design decisions made in any space venture because the avionics are one of the vehicle components most critical to the mission. The avionics equipment is selected early on the mission design, and selected from equipment that is already out-of-date because of the need for rad and vibration hardening. Compound this with the fact that it takes time to design and build the vehicle, time to test it, time to transport it for launch, and time to transport it to Mars. It should come as no surprise that the equipment we send to Mars is ten years or so (or more) out of date.

Sounds logical. However, we might be comparing Apples to Oranges. The hardware have leapfrogged over the years. But the human logic has not changed much. Humans have not doubled their IQ every 18 months. So, a ten years old logic should be as good today but only work faster and quicker with new machines. We should have better logics in place by now....that was the point...

We should have better logics in place by now....that was the point...
What in the world (or more appropriately, out of this world) makes you think we don't?

What in the world (or more appropriately, out of this world) makes you think we don't?

Ahh...

The robotics that they have are this slow and awkward, and we've been working on robotics for how many years now?

The rovers have to be able to maneuver on their own and take pictures on their own. They had better proceed slowly as there is no repair depot on Mars and as it can take up to 45 minutes between the time when something goes awry to the time a human override command arrives back from Earth. The rovers are autonomous vehicles, the first of their kind. So once again, what in the world makes you think NASA doesn't have new logics in place?

The Mars Phoenix Lander is a different kind of vehicle. It isn't a rover, for one thing. NASA has to trade off functionality and scientific outcome versus cost and feasibility for every space mission. Flying something to Mars is not cheap. We do not have the capability to send everything we want there. We have to pick and choose. In the case of the Phoenix Lander, that the vehicle had to make a landing argued against packing a whole lot of functionality into the vehicle for a couple of reasons. Firstly, landing a big hulking vehicle is a lot harder than landing a small, compact vehicle. The vehicle had to have limited functionality to have any chance at landing successfully. Secondly, we hadn't done a landing for decades, and our success rate was never particularly good. When one gambles in Vegas it is best not to hock the house. Landing on Mars is a big gamble.

Kmguru, in asking "why are our probes so stupid/limited/clunky?", you and MetaKron are asking a loaded question, one along the lines of "when did you stop beating your wife?".

Kmguru, in asking "why are our probes so stupid/limited/clunky?", you and MetaKron are asking a loaded question, one along the lines of "when did you stop beating your wife?".

That is definitely funny and universal....

Having worked on a major NASA project many years ago and done robotic programming in mid nineties for serious Hazardous Waste management for a private contractor - I agreed with MetaKron and explained certain limitations the way, government systems are built.

For example, our nuclear power plants today would cost $5 Billion for 1200 MW while a coal based system including heavy pollution control will cost only $2 Billion at most. What proponents will not tell you is that about $2 Billion would go on administrative and non-nuclear activities, just because it is a nuclear plant- like even the pencil has to be certified making it a $10 pencil.

It is what it is....( another useless sports cliché of our times ) :D

why can't they have a separate module within the rover which will act as a repair instrument on its own wheel and with its own arm? All it has to do is charge with the solar arrays of the lander and than go around repairing and brushing off dust from the solar arrays.

Or maybe we can just introduce electrostatic pulses along the array to get rid of the sand.

NASA does not like commercial off the shelf products, after all they have the most PhDs and hence feel, can do a better job.

too bad...that would cust the costs many times.

Kmguru, in asking "why are our probes so stupid/limited/clunky?", you and MetaKron are asking a loaded question, one along the lines of "when did you stop beating your wife?".

When did you stop beating your wife, then?

That is definitely funny and universal....

For example, our nuclear power plants today would cost $5 Billion for 1200 MW while a coal based system including heavy pollution control will cost only $2 Billion at most. What proponents will not tell you is that about $2 Billion would go on administrative and non-nuclear activities, just because it is a nuclear plant- like even the pencil has to be certified making it a $10 pencil.

It is what it is....( another useless sports cliché of our times ) :D

You know of course that we can only have the right kind of graphite around a nuclear reactor...

Why do not they use an external radiation shield case such as Hafnium/Zirconium sandwich or Depleted Uranium foil...then they can have the latest and greatest.....oh...well..

'cause it weighs to much and does little for vibration protection? it makes sense though I would envision a Europa orbiter needing such protection even with existing radiation hardened hardware.
Here the specs on RAD750 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750) the present best in space bound CPU.

'cause it weighs to much and does little for vibration protection? it makes sense though I would envision a Europa orbiter needing such protection even with existing radiation hardened hardware.
Here the specs on RAD750 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750) the present best in space bound CPU.

They did not say specifically how it was RAD hardened. I have a feeling that its was covered with borophosphosilicate glass to capture the neutrons and other methods from EMF, all coated and shielded and not redesign of the electronics to increase band gap or redundancies....

They did not say specifically how it was RAD hardened. I have a feeling that its was covered with borophosphosilicate glass to capture the neutrons and other methods from EMF, all coated and shielded and not redesign of the electronics to increase band gap or redundancies....

Aaah wikipedia, source of questionable generlizaed information, SOMETIMES WITH LINKS TO MORE REPUTABLE SOURCES (Like BAE brochure)!

Aaah wikipedia, source of questionable generlizaed information, SOMETIMES WITH LINKS TO MORE REPUTABLE SOURCES (Like BAE brochure)!

It does not say how they hardened it just the RAD hard is 2X - looks like they just put a shield on it and a lot of gold coatings....

It does not say how they hardened it just the RAD hard is 2X - looks like they just put a shield on it and a lot of gold coatings....

You need to be spoon fed?

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj70/WellCookedFetus/RAD750Hardening.png

Could be....except rad hardening...it looks like an Industrial grade design as in http://www.gefanucembedded.com/

But I could be wrong.....

The bottom panel in the graphics posted by ElectricFetus gives a clue: "Customization of the PowerPC 750 to improve SEE hardness required replacement of the circuitry while maintaining identical logic function".

Yes Sandia Lab does a rad-hard Intel Processor too....I supposed bolting on a shield does not work....wonder what the Chinese do...

But somebody is working on it....a cheap way...

http://sbir.gsfc.nasa.gov/SBIR/abstracts/95/sbir/phase1/SBIR-95-1-09.07-4167.html

http://sbir.gsfc.nasa.gov/SBIR/abstracts/95/sbir/phase1/SBIR-95-1-09.07-4167.html
Better stated as worked on it, rather than working on it. That was a 1995 SBIR project by Space Electronics, Inc. (http://www.spaceelectronics.com) (not to be confused with the Space Electronics Inc. (http://www.space-electronics.com) that makes mass properties measurement equipment). The first link redirects to Maxwell Technologies because Maxwell acquired the Space Electronics, Inc. that performed this SBIR in 1999; see http://sec.edgar-online.com/1999/02/12/16/0000936392-99-000171/Section2.asp.

So what happened to this SBIR work? It became a product! (Not many SBIR efforts do.) A bunch of products, actually, centered on the radiation hardening technology developed in the cited SBIR. One such product is Maxwell Technologies' SCS750 (http://www.maxwell.com/microelectronics/products/sbc/scs750.asp) single board computer.

Good link D H. Many years ago, I was involved in a Faultproof design of a system that had a special enclosure for protection besides internal immunity logics etc for nuclear core control.

Anyway, let us watch whether we found water or not....

I here about this before, these people are still using PC750 like the BAE RAD750 but they use 3 running at commercial speeds and smaller lithographic resolutions (the small the circuits the more prone to error from radiation) by having three processors voted error correction is used where the three will do an instruction, report their answer and if any one of the 3 reports a different answer its reset on the fly, the 3 processors run in sync as one processor with the error rate much lower then a single processor (the chances of 2 out of 3 erroring at the same time is extremely low).

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=phoenix-probing-martian-s

News: no ice found in the sample, possible explanation: the water sublimed away while it was in the scoop.

Why can not they find out what was that white stuff? Dry ice or water ice?

Why can not they find out what was that white stuff? Dry ice or water ice?

because:

1. if it was any ice...dry ice or water ice...it sublimed from the scoop long ago before it got to the mass spectrometer chamber

2. perhaps it was just a refraction of the material...magnesium or something...magnesium is white, so maybe it was magnesium powder (and as far as I remember Martian soil does have magnesium in it...10% *Oddysey 2001 data*)

Now they are almost certain that the white stuff is water ice.

Indeed,

"Dice-size crumbs of bright material have vanished from inside a trench where they were photographed by NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander four days ago, convincing scientists that the material was frozen water that vaporised after digging exposed it."

Source (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/06_19_pr.php)

Or frozen nitrogen.:shrug:

Or frozen nitrogen.:shrug:

We already went over this. Nitrogen freezes at a temperature 69 degree C below that of the coldest temperature found on Mars.

There still is a possibility that it is frozen CO2, or "dry ice".

My error, I meant CO2, sorry.:o

OK, so a question for the panel:

There's no way they really expect to find any form of life on that rock, right? I mean, the water vaporizes...vaporizes. That's cold, baby. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some places in the solar system that had some form of life, but Mars? I just can't picture it. Not even microbial.

If I recall correctly Mars has less then 1% nitrogen...that begs a question...how will humans create the pressure needed with only 23% of oxygen needed, what will feel in for the rest?

Now they are almost certain that the white stuff is water ice.

We sent a multimillion dollar probe to find water but do not have instruments to check it....how stupid is that?

We sent a multimillion dollar probe to find water but do not have instruments to check it....how stupid is that?

they got instruments to check it, the problem is in sublimation...

If I recall correctly Mars has less then 1% nitrogen...that begs a question...how will humans create the pressure needed with only 23% of oxygen needed, what will feel in for the rest?

Human can live for in theory in a pure oxygen atmosphere at 4.7psi or in normal oxygen (=>3.3psi)/low neutral gas (nitrogen/argon/helium/etc) (=>1.7psi)/low pressure environment for their entire lives.

Extracting nitrogen out of Martian atmosphere is simply a matter of sucking Martian air, pressurizing it and then freezing out all non-wanted gas (CO2), heck we extract xenon and argon from our air all the time be doing such a processes.

humans cannot live with argon gas...it is too heavy. And helium is not present on Mars. Nitrogen is way too low in abundance to maintain, constant leakages will occur.

Humans can live in pure oxygen?! No way...the cells would undergo extreme metabolic reactions as well as pure oxygen explodes easily.

ISS has life supporting system, how do they maintain pressure? what gases besides Elektron module producing oxygen are in air?

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/250502main_SS019IOF897904859_127F8RABCT1_full_516-387.jpg

Wow...that does look so white, so white I wouldn't think it was water ice, but it is...

humans cannot live with argon gas...it is too heavy. And helium is not present on Mars. Nitrogen is way too low in abundance to maintain, constant leakages will occur.

Humans can live in pure oxygen?! No way...the cells would undergo extreme metabolic reactions as well as pure oxygen explodes easily.

ISS has life supporting system, how do they maintain pressure? what gases besides Elektron module producing oxygen are in air?

There have been experiments with human living in argon atmosphere, it works, by your logic helium would not work because it "too light", weight of the molecule as little effect.

Most early astronauts functioned in pure oxygen, fighter pilots function in pure oxygen, a human can live in pure oxygen at normal pressure safely for several hours, and at reduced pressure of 4.7psi theoretically indefinitely, pure oxygen at 4.7psi provides the same amount of oxygen as normal atmosphere at 14.7psi to your lungs, it will not have any effects on metabolism. Also 4.7psi does not provide much increased fire hazard, during the mercury to apollo days they would pre-pressurize the spacecraft to 14.7psi with pure oxygen so the spacecraft would not implode from sea level air pressure outside, then during or after lunch they would bring the pressure down to a safer (both for the astronauts and for fire safety) pressure of 4.7psi, this policy worked fine until Apollo 1 when a fire broke out while pressurized at 14.7psi, afterwards they would have the astronauts launch in their spacesuits at 14.7psi pure oxygen while filling the spacecraft with 14.7psi pure nitrogen, then when entering orbit they would bleed off the nitrogen atmosphere and replace it with a 4.7psi oxygen atmosphere, and the astronauts would take off their spacesuits. Honestly you should Google these things before making a idiot of your self!

Honestly you should Google these things before making a idiot of your self!

"few hours" is not good enough ElectricFetus, my goal is to allow colonists to live their lives on planet Mars, not just "few" hours.

Also, I stated the same thing, pure oxygen is way too dangerous as it explodes easily.

"few hours" is not good enough ElectricFetus, my goal is to allow colonists to live their lives on planet Mars, not just "few" hours.

Also, I stated the same thing, pure oxygen is way too dangerous as it explodes easily.

Your not capable of reading large paragraphs are you? let me simplify it:

Pure oxygen at 14.7psi (normal pressure): not longer then 24 hour exposure, fire hazard
Pure oxygen at 4.7psi (reduced pressure): indefinite exposure is safe (in theory), not a fire hazard.

Now do you see why I response "GIYD"? Because even when I do waste the time of explaining it to you it does not sink in!

...
Pure oxygen at 4.7psi (reduced pressure): indefinite exposure is safe (in theory), not a fire hazard.

Now do you see why I response "GIYD

I diagree with this statement here alltogether. So called "theory" is faulty.

I diagree with this statement here alltogether. So called "theory" is faulty.

Look it up your self! Its a fact, not my opinion.

Quoting you ElectricFetus:
"Pure oxygen at 4.7psi (reduced pressure): indefinite exposure is safe (in theory), not a fire hazard"

please give links and proof.

Here's some notes from a lecture on "Basics of Spacecraft Life Support" (http://www.colorado.edu/ASEN/asen5016/03-LifeSupport.htm), to compare what spacefarers have been breathing:

Mercury (1 m3) 100% O2 at 5 psi, 1 person

Gemini (3 m3) 100% O2 at 5 psi, 2 people

Apollo Command and Service Module (CSM) (7 m3) 3 people

· 100% O2 at 5 psi on orbit

· 60% O2 / 40% N2 during launch

Lunar Module (2 people) (5 m3) – Apollo environment

Skylab Orbital Workshop

· Habitable volume of approximately 300 m3

· 72% O2 / 28% N2 at 5 psi

Space Shuttle

- Orbiter (71 m3)

· Sea level pressure 3.1 psi ppO2 (21%)

· 10.2 psia pre-EVA, 30% O2

- ET and SRB’s

Spacelab (~70 m3) – shuttle environment

SPACEHAB (~31 m3) – shuttle environment

ISS (~1200 m3) – standard atmosphere, driven largely by research constraints


At atmospheric pressures at or below 5 psi and under microgravity, there is no more O2 contributing to a fire (in other words no more of a fire hazard) than we have at normal surface conditions on Earth. We don't require any other gases than Oxygen for our metabolism (but the Water, CO2, methane, acetone, etc. that we exhale must be kept below problematic levels). Where other gases are added in artificial breathing (underwater or spaceflight) it isn't because of any physiological need for them. You could say that our physiology produces a surplus of CO2 and H2O (which are necessary) for our needs in a closed environment.

My error, I meant CO2, sorry.:o

It turns out that it can't be frozen CO2 either. Dry ice under those conditions would disappear too fast.

So Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo had Oxygen 100% at 5 psi.

But those missions were way too short to actually have humans breath only oxygen for their lifetime...

I do understand that fire hazard will no longer be there.

So Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo had Oxygen 100% at 5 psi.

But those missions were way too short to actually have humans breath only oxygen for their lifetime...

I do understand that fire hazard will no longer be there.

Lets look at the mechanics of it: more oxygen makes fire burn more right? How much oxygen is in the air, 21% or a partial pressure of .21 bar, if you were in an atmosphere of .21 bar of pure oxygen the amount of oxygen reaching the fire would be the same as in normal air (not including the properties of nitrogen of course). Although .21 bar atmosphere of pure oxygen (3.1psi) will to your lungs look oxygen depleted, to your lungs it would seem like 2km above sea level because the partial pressure of CO2 and water vapor in your lungs will drop the oxygen partial pressure, the math though comes out that at 4.7psi pure oxygen your lungs should feel the oxygen partial pressure of sea level air (actually a little lower).

Doesn't look like anyone has posted this yet. Nasa has confirmed that the white stuff is water ice.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080620.html

"NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander repositioned its robotic arm slightly Tuesday and is now poised to deliver Martian soil to its wet chemistry laboratory."

Read more (http://uanews.org/node/20315)

Doesn't look like anyone has posted this yet. Nasa has confirmed that the white stuff is water ice.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080620.html

Didn't catch that news release, thanks for posting it! :)

"Flabbergasted" NASA scientists said on Thursday that first analysis of Martian soil appeared to contain the requirements to support life.

Read more (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=5255072&page=1)

"Flabbergasted" NASA scientists said on Thursday that first analysis of Martian soil appeared to contain the requirements to support life.

Read more (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=5255072&page=1)

like what? water? lol :p what a bunch of naive dopes. :rolleyes:

You might be able to grow asparagus in it really well.

You might be able to grow asparagus in it really well.

what...just water? no nutrients? as far as I remember martian soil is full of oxides with magnesium, silicon, aluminum...

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080626.html
From the horse's mouth.

Quoting:

"The alkalinity of the soil at this location is definitely striking. At this specific location, one-inch into the surface layer, the soil is very basic, with a pH of between eight and nine. We also found a variety of components of salts that we haven't had time to analyze and identify yet, but that include magnesium, sodium, potassium and chloride."

To Mars, Again!

WASHINGTON -- NASA has submitted funding proposals for a new Mars mission, scheduled to launch in 2012. The mission will entail a new Mars lander called the Advanced Series Polymorphic Asparagus Research Automated Growing Unit Seedfarm, or ASPARAGUS, and is expected to grow several varieties of asparagus in martian soil.

"[We] might be able to grow asparagus in it really well... It is very exciting for us" says Sam Kounaves, mission planner for the new endevour.

The lander will be expected to gather soil and deposit it into a 'grow-op' like container, where asparagus seeds will be added to the mix. "We just don't know what will happen after that, it will be very exciting to watch the developments unfold over subsequent weeks." he adds.

Included in the lander will be a CD filled with asparagus recipies for future astronauts of the first manned Mars mission, planned for 2050. "The CD will contain dozens of recipies all featuring asparagus as the main ingredient. Things like boiled asparagus, steamed asparagus, steam boiled asparagus, fried asparagus, and even just plain asparagus!" says Angela Schmidt, the mission's asparagus habilitation expert.

The $480 million project is expected to be greenlit later this year.

I wonder when NASA will send a robotic craft to Mars , have it retrieve some samples, then have it return to Earth? Anyone know when that is scheduled?:shrug:

"NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander enlarged the "Snow White" trench and scraped up little piles of icy soil on Saturday, June 28, the 33rd Martian day, or sol, of the mission."

Read more (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/07_01_pr.php)

@cosmictraveler
probably 2020

I dont get it...Mars Odyssey 2001 already confirmed with its neutron scattering equipment that water is present on mars as ice...we all know it...so why all the big cheers now? just because they took a close picture of it?

To Mars, Again!

WASHINGTON -- NASA has submitted funding proposals for a new Mars mission, scheduled to launch in 2012. The mission will entail a new Mars lander called the Advanced Series Polymorphic Asparagus Research Automated Growing Unit Seedfarm, or ASPARAGUS, and is expected to grow several varieties of asparagus in martian soil.

"[We] might be able to grow asparagus in it really well... It is very exciting for us" says Sam Kounaves, mission planner for the new endevour.

The lander will be expected to gather soil and deposit it into a 'grow-op' like container, where asparagus seeds will be added to the mix. "We just don't know what will happen after that, it will be very exciting to watch the developments unfold over subsequent weeks." he adds.


Included in the lander will be a CD filled with asparagus recipies for future astronauts of the first manned Mars mission, planned for 2050. "The CD will contain dozens of recipies all featuring asparagus as the main ingredient. Things like boiled asparagus, steamed asparagus, steam boiled asparagus, fried asparagus, and even just plain asparagus!" says Angela Schmidt, the mission's asparagus habilitation expert.

The $480 million project is expected to be greenlit later this year.

I dont believe it...cite please :cool:

Hey I searched for alkaline plants here on Earth and found this: http://www.demesne.info/Garden-Help/Solutions/Soil/Alkaline-Soils.htm

basically these will grow on Mars...with water and temperature of course...

notice: aloe and asparagus will do well.

Hey I searched for alkaline plants here on Earth and found this: http://www.demesne.info/Garden-Help/Solutions/Soil/Alkaline-Soils.htm

basically these will grow on Mars...with water and temperature of course...

notice: aloe and asparagus will do well.

That list doesn't include any plants that people normally eat.

"Tests show the resulting mud to have a slightly alkaline pH level of between 8 and 9, comparable to sea water and favouring asparagus and the like (but, sadly for Martian tennis fans, not strawberries)."

Read more (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/jul/02/spaceexploration.mars)

"The U.S. space agency says the next sample of Martian soil to be analysed by the Phoenix Mars Lander might be its last."

Read more (http://www.dailyindia.com/show/255674.php/Phoenix-soil-analysis-might-be-ended)

"Scientists running the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment, known as HiRISE, on NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter have processed more details in an amazing image their camera captured as the Phoenix spacecraft descended through Mars' atmosphere during its landing on May 25, 2008."

Source (http://uanews.org/node/20486)

Phoenix Conductivity Probe Inserted in Martian Soil

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/phoenix/collection_16/phx20081007-500.gif (730kb, gif)

Read more (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/images.php?fileID=9357)

imagine them getting Martian translated tv signals through the ground...

“NASA’s Mars Lander encountered some difficulties over the weekend, related to its robotic arm.”

Read more (http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_Mars_Lander_Encounters_New_Problems_With_Its_ Robotic_Arm_20441.html)