SEOUL, South Korea - North Korea announced for the first time Thursday it has nuclear weapons, and it rejected moves to restart disarmament talks anytime soon, saying the bombs are protection against an increasingly hostile United States.

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The communist state’s statement dramatically raised the stakes in the 2-year-old nuclear confrontation and posed a grave challenge to President Bush, who started his second term with a vow to end North Korea’s nuclear program through six-nation talks.

“We ... have manufactured nukes for self-defense to cope with the Bush administration’s evermore undisguised policy to isolate and stifle the (North),” the North Korean Foreign Ministry said in a statement carried by the state-run Korean Central News Agency. The news agency used the colloquial term “nukes” in its English-language account.

The claim could not be independently verified. North Korea expelled the last U.N. nuclear monitors in late 2002. It is not known to have tested an atomic bomb, although international officials have long suspected it has one or two nuclear weapons.

The CIA has estimated that with a highly enriched uranium weapons program and the use of sophisticated high-speed centrifuges, North Korea could be making more. Some analysts and observers have put the estimate at six to eight.

rest of the story here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6944560/




Should the US be concerned? N.Korea is saying (as I highlighted) that they were doing this because of Bush's aggressive policy towards them....do you think that is true?

lets attackkkk iran...........haha. Evidence it bit far from iran but who cares??? :p :D

It is not like the US never bullied North Korea, ya know....? :rolleyes:

Bush has an aggressive policy towards everyone who can either make him and his pals richer or control stratigecaly important territory.

if I was north korea who seem a bit paranoid just now I would keep those nukes.. atleast with them if bush ever plans to invade north korea they will have somthing to bargain with.

The situation in north korea is very tense but I dont think they will use their proposed nuclear weapons.

What could we do about it? Those nukes are probably in hardened underground bunkers. We can't invade, and we can't nuke them.

N. Korea would have developed these sooner without the US and they lied to Clinton.

If you think N Korea is reasonable, then you're being unreasonable.

I called them paranoid not reasonable. And I would rather they werent there to be honest.

Axis of Evil...not exactly a heart warming gesture.

Lol good point, but then comes the chiken and the egg idea...

did they get into the axis of evil before they made their nukes or after?

Anyone remember that mushroom cloud a few months ago?

What mushroom cloud

Somehow I get the feeling the media fallout will worsen the situation.

Odin'Izm, there was a huge explosion, NK claimed they were removing a mountain for a hydroelectric station (I think),
anyways, if there was a nuclear explosion, then Russia and the US knows about it because of the satellites (you can not hide gamma ray bursts).
---
Anyways, NK is a shithole in which nobody should dirty his hands in. That's imho.

p.s. If I were NK I would keep the nukes too, you can not be safe against the US if you have no nukes. A lesson I hope Iran learns from.

Yeah, a few months ago there was a huge mushroom in North Korea. They said it was a mining explosion, but who the hell blows a mountain to bits when they mine?

Wow i havent heard about that.. then again I stoped watching the news...

Thanks for telling me though :) I looked it up and found a quote i agree with

"It's difficult to say, but it won't be easy for North Korea to conduct a nuclear test without resulting in massive losses of its own people," said Koh Yu-hwan, a North Korea expert in Seoul. "I think there is a more possibility that it is a simple accident, rather than a deliberate nuclear test."

but one thing was strange:

The damage and crater left by the explosion in Kim Hyong Jik county was big enough to be noticed by a satellite, a source in Beijing told Yonhap.

This is a serious challenge to American power, because it shows how utterly ineffectual it has become. North Korea can seriously attack her neighbours with nuclear weapons, so to incite a war with NK would mean Japan’s economy (even if not nuked) would be thrown into depression, and the effects of such a war would be disastrous for the capitalist economy, and confidence in Asian markets could collapse and a world wide recession could come about, to think that in 1997 the collapse of the Thai Bahat almost caused a depression an NK nuking her neighbours would surely do it.

The damage and crater left by the explosion in Kim Hyong Jik county was big enough to be noticed by a satellite, a source in Beijing told Yonhap.

It's possible that one of their rocket bases blew up. Shit happens. A non nuclear explosion can be pretty powerful too. (remember the gas pipeline expl. in USSR)
But a nuclear explosion can not be hidden from the US and Russia's sattellites (gamma ray bursts).

Besides the US and Russia can trace a nuclear submarine by its' reacotor if not deeper than 350m. And that's only a reactor.
I'm sure that atleast the US has a good sattellite coverage over NK.

Well, if they already have them then there is no point negotiating with them to stop developing the technology. Having nukes gives them nothing, having a program to develop nukes gives them a bargaining chip, which they've thus far been able to use to get quite a bit of attention. As far as I see it they just removed their bargaining chip. I don't get it.

Lol good point, but then comes the chiken and the egg idea...

did they get into the axis of evil before they made their nukes or after?Both. The history's starting to become complex at this point.

They agreed to cease efforts to develop a fuel cycle under the 1994 Agreed Framework; a deal where they'd stop trying to build themselves a weapon in exchange for fuel oil and the construction of a light water reactor (LWRs don't produce Plutonium in their spent fuel). Chief amongst the stipulations of the Agreed Framework was the line item that the 5MW(t) LMFBR (the only operating reactor they are known to have with the capacity for breeding Plutonium-239) at Yongbyon would be scrammed, shut down, placed under seal, and monitored by the IAEA.

The AoE speech was in January of 2002 as a subset of the SotU, I think - or maybe it was in late-2001. In any case, in December of 2002, with Iraq under the microscope, North Korea withdrew from the NPT, removed the seals and monitoring equipment, and restarted the reactor.

In June-July of 2003, the first batch of fuel rods (the ones put in the past December) was done being bombarded and had been fully transmuted into Pu-239 weapon fuel. They were withdrawn from the core and are now available to be fashioned into a weapon. Given the mass of fuels, it is not unrealistic to expect them to be able to fab up 6-8 weapons from them, depending upon how crafty they are at milling them down and machining the parts.

This is all regarding their Plutonium program. It also came to common knowledge at a later date that they had a functional Uranium enrichment program in place before the 1994 freeze, and because it was covert, they never shut it down throughout the later-1990s. Not sure if there's an estimated figure on how much HEU they got out of it, but if there is, I've not seen it.

Short answer: While the Axis of Evil speech surely didn't mend any hearts, it has been intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that both Iran and North Korea have been in hot pursuit of complete fuel cycles and weapons programs since the late-1970s, and probably earlier.
Yeah, a few months ago there was a huge mushroom in North Korea. They said it was a mining explosion, but who the hell blows a mountain to bits when they mine?It was not a nuclear test. We would have known about it through seismic transients and satellite sensors if it was.

So, what's wrong with that?
If the US, UK, France, Russia, India, Pakistan has the right to protect themselves by nuclear weapons then any other country in the world has that right too.

Yea. I heard about this morning when I turned on the news. Didnt hear the full story. I was still in that half alseep daze. Im wondering where it will go from here.

Having nukes gives them nothing, having a program to develop nukes gives them a bargaining chip, which they've thus far been able to use to get quite a bit of attention. As far as I see it they just removed their bargaining chip. I don't get it.

I agree that NK’s chips are largely gone, but it may not be so dire. Consider that now NK has admitted it has nukes, it will put much more pressure on the US from NK’s neighbours to talk one on one and get more concessions, because what would be better for US power then to get NK to give up her nukes for peace? NK may actually be doing the smartest thing to one up the American’s, but it could very well fail horribly. The onus is on the United State’s now, NK has moved her chips. Because now NK can export these nukes, and seriously challenge American military power.

They agreed to cease efforts to develop a fuel cycle under the 1994 Agreed Framework; a deal where they'd stop trying to build themselves a weapon in exchange for fuel oil and the construction of a light water reactor (LWRs don't produce Plutonium in their spent fuel).

Which were short in coming, funding for the reactors was never really fully there, construction was WAY behind, and the food came in but irregularly, the US like NK did not live up to the 1994 agreement sufficiently enough.

Chief amongst the stipulations of the Agreed Framework was the line item that the 5MW(t) LMFBR (the only operating reactor they are known to have with the capacity for breeding Plutonium-239) at Yongbyon would be scrammed, shut down, placed under seal, and monitored by the IAEA.

Which NK did *until the Axis of Evil speech I would imagine*…the 1994 framework did not talk about Uranium which is supposedly the process NK has been using lately.

[Short answer: While the Axis of Evil speech surely didn't mend any hearts, it has been intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that both Iran and North Korea have been in hot pursuit of complete fuel cycles and weapons programs since the late-1970s, and probably earlier.

Then why the US give those nations more reason to pursue those programs? The US has itself to blame for this, the Bush administration giving up on the Sunshine policy, and the Axis of Evil speech would not make Iran or NK think “well were on his bad list better make nice”. Seriously, how can American’s (not you) think so simplistically about this world its shocking.

... If you think nukes are going to stop the US in the long term, then you're kidding yourself. A country like NK can be surrounded and contained... we already have the technology to make it impossible for NK to do a land based ICBM launch on the US.

If they got subs, then we'd have a problem... no so much in the lack of technology as in the expense of defending the whole US... it's a large country... it's far cheaper to just invest in mobile icbm killers and put them around a hostile force... then you go in.


They can detonate their bombs in a scorched earth policy... but if we know that's likely then we'll adapt our deployments to minimize losses.




The important thing you have to realize, is that the US is trying to change the world. So nukes isn't going make that go away... just delay us.



What I actually think the US is going to do is get the countries in that region to pressure NK out of their current policy… I mean… they’re already in famine conditions…. Cut off their remaining support and they have no choice. NKs actions aren’t pleasing anyone.

... NKs actions aren’t pleasing anyone.

Americas actions arent making people happy either.

Americas actions arent making people happy either.
more specific... NK is basically making no one happy. The US remains astronomically more popular. Don’t exaggerate a few countries in Europe to mean the entire world. Europe is very prone to eurocentrism and thus tends to say that anything that a large portion of Europe doesn’t like is in fact the world.


The important thing to remember is this:
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050129/capt.cadd10801291951.iraq_overseas_vote_cadd108.jp g
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/gallery/2005/01/28/finger350.jpg

France is largely caving to the reality that the US's actions are going to be seen in an increasingly positive light... and is therefore making peace with that future now.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

Only new news here is that they announced it.

Condi's trip to France and Germany rattled them. Chirac's comment to her that "the cynics were wrong, Bush was right" rattled a lot of people.

And NK needs money. This is an attempt at the type of shake-down Clinton and Albright fell for.

When NK falls, and it won't be long, what we will discoverr will be among the worst atrocities in history.

If you think nukes are going to stop the US in the long term
No, but at least you can go down with a bang and pride, not like Iraq.
Cause maximal damage if the X hour is there. Make lives in SK miserable.

I'm not favouring NK's idiotic policies or regime, but I honour every country's right to sovereignty.

No, but at least you can go down with a bang and pride, not like Iraq.
Dude, they are a starving people kept in bondage by a tyrannical mad man that kills anyone that resists him what so ever. The wives of one of his generals said something along the lines of "Kim isn't very nice to women" or something because he has about hundred concubines and straight out prostitutes that generally brutalizes. Somehow Kim heard about this and confronted this woman at a state dinner. She responded with something along the lines of "you could be a little nicer to women" and her husband stopped the conversation saying "I would like the honor of killing my wife"... he then promptly killed his wife.

Maybe Europeans can stomach that bullshit... I don't know how much of the old time of kings has left you. But that is absolutely intolerable from our perspective.


Their is no pride in any of that.


I'm not favouring NK's idiotic policies or regime, but I honour every country's right to sovereignty.
All you're honoring is a master's right to his slaves. That kind of talk should have gone out with the last century. For the US, that ended with the Civil War.

Should the US be concerned? N.Korea is saying (as I highlighted) that they were doing this because of Bush's aggressive policy towards them....do you think that is true?

Bush is not going to like this. His orders are to invade Iran and his excuse is because they MIGHT someday have nuclear weapons (the same lame excuse he used to invade Iraq). With North Korea openly declaring they have nuclear weapons, the case to invade Iran next crumbles, and with North Korea actually HAVING nuclear weapons, the US is not likely to invade. As Iraq proved, the US only invades nations that don't really have weapons of mass destruction.

All you're honoring is a master's right to his slaves. That kind of talk should have gone out with the last century. For the US, that ended with the Civil War.
NK is not the USA and the USA is not the world.
I don't care slavery or not, but it's a state and it has its' rights.

NK is not the USA and the USA is not the world.
I don't care slavery or not, but it's a state and it has its' rights.
States derive their rights from the people. Ergo, a state that enslaves its people has no rights. Period.

Ius Naturale -> everyone has a right to defend oneself, even despotic regimes.

Of course, invade it, please, not that I or anyone else has any power in that, but don't complain if many will die.
Actually it would be funny if the country mass suicides itself with all its' citizens because of the US invasion.

Should the US be concerned? N.Korea is saying (as I highlighted) that they were doing this because of Bush's aggressive policy towards them....do you think that is true?

Bush is not going to like this. His orders are to invade Iran and his excuse is because they MIGHT someday have nuclear weapons (the same lame excuse he used to invade Iraq). With North Korea openly declaring they have nuclear weapons, the case to invade Iran next crumbles, and with North Korea actually HAVING nuclear weapons, the US is not likely to invade. As Iraq proved, the US only invades nations that don't really have weapons of mass destruction.

Actually it would be funny if the country mass suicides itself with all its' citizens because of the US invasion.
that's a disgusting thought...

You believe in the rights of nations and I believe in the rights of human beings...

all i can do is give you the finger.
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/gallery/2005/01/28/finger350.jpg

Its the friggin americans with the excused stockpiles of weaponry and highly funded machines of war that we need to point the finger at.
The fact that the US has been creating these weapons since before WW2 show the potential of not just what could happen to the rest of the world, but also, what could happen to the american people themselves.

I believe in the not too distant future, it will be the loyal american public themselves that will fall victim to the inconsiderate minority within the powerful sects of the secret agencies within the American Government.

George Bush better have a good reason to explain to the world, why he started War after war, over the "voices in his head, that tell him too".

He's just a moron-puppet. Imho of course.

I can't wait for this stupidity to end... about two years from now and the only people making these asinine claims will be the dried up tools that never stop and no one ever listens to...

So bloody annoying...

Bush has an IQ of 91. :bugeye:
The guy is a lame redneck.
Clinton for example has an IQ of 182 (the same test).
And no IQ test is needed. Too many of his interviews and announcements have been laughing shows all over the world.
We had a thread here (top 100 Bush blunders) or something like that. Not to say that about 1000 were collected.

That is no claim, that's a fact.

North Korea announced for the first time Thursday it has nuclear weapons, and it rejected moves to restart disarmament talks anytime soon, saying the bombs are protection against an increasingly hostile United States.

That's actually quite a fair statement, in my opinion.
The U.S.A has done nothing but intimidate and whine about countries like North Korea. And the fact that it still frowns of communism.
And the little fact that it invaded Iraq.

If I were North Korea, I would be stockpiling weapons as if it were the next Cold War.

Karmashock:

You believe in the rights of nations and I believe in the rights of human beings...

OH MY!
ROTFLMFAO!!!

This is the same individual who tried to defend the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, claiming that they were not protected by the Geneva Convention!!!

Hahah. Keep those jokes coming, Karma. It's funny when you trip over your own feet due to self-contradictions. ;)

No, but at least you can go down with a bang and pride, not like Iraq.
Cause maximal damage if the X hour is there.

iraq isnt over, they are still fighting, despite the fact that their children are human sheilds for the americans

Oh, I think they use their children as shields too, but that's not the point.
I was talking about the official state possition. Now it's mostly only uncoordinated resistance and banditism actions, there is no governmental body behind it.

To fight the American Military might is pointless for Iraqi's......The current administration in Amercia has already shown that they dont care about international law or opinion so the best thing that Iraqi's can do is elect a Goverment body that is Anti-Occupation and tells(not asks) Americans to dismantle their bases and leave.Since Bush wont set a time table(for leaving) then the Iraqi's need to do it for him

Oh, I think they use their children as shields too, but that's not the point.
I was talking about the official state possition. Now it's mostly only uncoordinated resistance and banditism actions, there is no governmental body behind it.

what about the mujahideen supreme council, they send orders to all te mosques across iraq telling people what has to be done, then the fighters go do it

Bush has an IQ of 91. :bugeye:
The guy is a lame redneck.
Clinton for example has an IQ of 182 (the same test).
And no IQ test is needed. Too many of his interviews and announcements have been laughing shows all over the world.
We had a thread here (top 100 Bush blunders) or something like that. Not to say that about 1000 were collected.

That is no claim, that's a fact.
cite your source.

Bush's SAT score was 1206 (566 Verbal, 640 Math). See the upper-left
corner of his Yale transcript:
http://www.iuptown.com/YaleProtest/bushs_yale_transcript.htm



That was a full 180 points below the median score for the Yale University class of '68.(four years later) :m:

Guys i asked around and NO ONE i know has heard of the N korean mushroom cloud story.
BBC never showed the story neither did the other news chanels here in britain, prime example of news filltering im actually quite scared / disapointed by it.

Avatar: As much as I hate what america is doing.. I hate what Kim is doing to his people even more.

as for bill clinton he had an IQ of 129. 190+ is not humanly possible since steven hawking has an IQ of 176 and he can use more than 5% of his brain for thought.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3650702.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3648794.stm

Odin'Izm, the North Korea mushroom cloud story:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/13/nkorea.blast/

It was not accompanied by an electromagnetic pulse, so it couldn't have been nuclear, it was strange, though.

Since this Karmashock reject can’t read my posts, I behove all members of the forum to collectively point and laugh at him after his “argument” is raped, thank you also we should try to ignore this troll, why feed a dying brain?

A country like NK can be surrounded and contained... we already have the technology to make it impossible for NK to do a land based ICBM launch on the US.

Impossible? One almost peed his pants here, America’s NMD has never shot down an ICBM in a real world situation, I doubt NK is going to put a beacon on their warheads telling the NMD shield where it is. America is not defended from a NK attack period, NK can in due time attack American targets in the US itself, and even according to the CIA she already can with the West Coast of the United States. But the threat of nuclear attack isn’t really for the US its for NK’s neighbours, how can one contain a nation that wants to be contained? Seems stupid…much like you…doesn’t it?

it's far cheaper to just invest in mobile icbm killers and put them around a hostile force... then you go in.

What is this supposed to be? PS2 game? After reading this now I know you can’t even point on a map where NK is.

They can detonate their bombs in a scorched earth policy... but if we know that's likely then we'll adapt our deployments to minimize losses.

The scorched earth will be in SK not in NK paving the way for a easier invasion of the South, the US cannot defend SK adequately even according to US military projections.

The important thing you have to realize, is that the US is trying to change the world. So nukes isn't going make that go away... just delay us.

The US is trying, and its failing rather horribly, and its little games is actually destroy America’s economy bit by bit, since Osama said his goal was to bankrupt the US, boy he’s doing a damn good job.

What I actually think the US is going to do is get the countries in that region to pressure NK out of their current policy… I mean… they’re already in famine conditions…. Cut off their remaining support and they have no choice. NKs actions aren’t pleasing anyone.

Forgetting the equation of China are we…well again he probably thinks that NK is located in India.

So too all other posters, put this idiot on ignore, don’t feed the disease of ignorance.

"A country like NK can be surrounded and contained... we already have the technology to make it impossible for NK to do a land based ICBM launch on the US."

You must be refering to the high-tech Attari command system where we shoot down the incoming missles before they can blow up our cities..........
I believe it is called Missle Command. Yes, we do posses Attari's. Sadly, its only a game.

Well if I were one of these Axis of Evil, I would be increasing nuclear research to the max. Heck, they should just ally with one another and trade nukes since they ARE marked for invasion. The Axis of Evil speech was just totally stupid and only strengthens their hatred for America and their need to defend themselves.

I also sure don't want to see us putting sanctions on North Korea now that they have nukes. Why? Because it's just another Pearl Harbor waiting to happen. The Japs bombed us due to all the oil and other economical sanctions we had on them.

And with all the terrorism that people have in their minds, haven’t they learned anything about the desperation which causes one to blow themselves up? I’m sure they’d rather fight like a normal army but they lack the power and equipment to do so and building bombs and having themselves go boom is the most they can muster. So if North Korea has a nuke, you better be damned sure they’re going to use it out of desperation. C’mon, the people there are killing and eating themselves due to lack of food. To think they won’t try some huge kamikaze ala nuclear style is horribly shortsighted and naive. Yes, history DOES repeat itself. No, these times are NO different than any other. It’s funny how no matter what year it is, the people living in it always thinks their time is different than before.

While we may not like the rulers of North Korea, we just have to realize that there are always going to be people different than us. Just because they don’t rule the same way we do doesn’t mean our way is the best and only way to rule and anyone that doesn’t do it our way is bad. Treat them like a normal country open up trade. Quit being so stupid about not liking how they are. I doubt that’ll ever happen tho considering we still have stupid sanctions on Cuba of all places. I just hope that now that since finally someone that’s being oppressed has nuclear capability, that it’ll force us to quit acting so high and mighty, or we’ll pay the price that every egostistical person that underestimates the underdog does.

- N

States derive their rights from the people. Ergo, a state that enslaves its people has no rights. Period.
There is still slavery going on in most of countries, including the United States of America. Just a few years ago some girls that had been brought over from India as sex slaves died because toxic fumes got into the little rooms they'd been living in. This happened in Santa Clara, Ca. I believe. A little boy from Western Africa was selected for slaughter in a voodoo cerimony. They found what was left of his body in the river Thames. Try reading National Geographic every now and then.

States derive their rights from the people. Ergo, a state that enslaves its people has no rights. Period.
Certainly!
So..... let's overthrow our governments? :D

There is still slavery going on in most of countries, including the United States of America. Just a few years ago some girls that had been brought over from India as sex slaves died because toxic fumes got into the little rooms they'd been living in. This happened in Santa Clara, Ca. I believe. A little boy from Western Africa was selected for slaughter in a voodoo cerimony. They found what was left of his body in the river Thames. Try reading National Geographic every now and then.
That's illegal and against the will of the people AND the government.

So you have no case.
:rolleyes:

Why are we feeding the troll ppl?

In a way, Karma is a boon to this forum, as it gives the members a chance to test their mettle against a Bush supporter.

That's illegal and against the will of the people AND the government.

So you have no case.
:rolleyes:
Since when did something being illegal stop people from doing it. The truth is the institution of slavery still exist. There are at least 2 million slaves in the world. In fact one could argue that you and all the other red neck idiots that blindly believe anything the Govt. says. When it comes down to it they don't care about the "will of the people" or whether an issue is legal or not if they profit from it, speaking generally and not of slavery. Tell me, how's the weather in LaLa Land this time of year? You have no case. :rolleyes:

My hand could not keep up with my brain on that last post and I made a grammatical error. In fact one could argue that you and all the other red neck idiots that blindly believes anything their Govt. says are enslaved.

In a way, Karma is a boon to this forum, as it gives the members a chance to test their mettle against a Bush supporter.
Well yeah. I don't think I disagree with what he says nearly as much as the rest of you seem to but irrespective of that I don't see the point in ignoring alternate opinions. Monolithic environments where everybody pats themselves on the back are boring, and I vastly prefer having people to disagree with (and sometimes profoundly).

Unless the guy's being really offensive, which I don't think Karmashock is, I don't see a huge reason to complain.
Then why the US give those nations more reason to pursue those programs? The US has itself to blame for this, the Bush administration giving up on the Sunshine policy, and the Axis of Evil speech would not make Iran or NK think “well were on his bad list better make nice”. Seriously, how can American’s (not you) think so simplistically about this world its shocking.
Well, I pretty much agree. We live in different places but down here where I am people act like this nuclear thing is something new, and I'm getting tired of correcting them.
the 1994 framework did not talk about Uranium which is supposedly the process NK has been using lately.
It's still covered by the NPT, which they were at the time signatories of. My point was that they paid service to the Agreed Framework (which failed for other reasons) while at the same time undermining its intent. If you ask me, the weapons they're claiming to have are a result of their HEU program, and not the recent Plutonium fiasco.

Bush has an IQ of 91. :bugeye:
The guy is a lame redneck.
Clinton for example has an IQ of 182 (the same test).

His IQ is estimated to be equivalent to John F. Kennedy's.

Try reading if that's not too tough for you.

http://www.csbsju.edu/uspp/Election/bush011401.htm

The IQ test in general is faulty. Hey, Avatar, you went to Yale too, right?

There's probably no chance that NK's nuclear threat will be taken seriously, since the US is capable of massive retaliation like during the Cold War. I don't believe, however, that this makes it any more feasible to conduct an invasion. Rather I think progress might be made if the US resumes its proper place in the UN and negotiates on equal terms.

Since when did something being illegal stop people from doing it.
Implicit in my point was that a state that enslaves its people has no rights. Since all states derive their rights from the people.


As NK does this and the US does not, you have no case. The state itself would have to do this or support it for you to have a case. As it’s only a few people skulking in basements, you have no case.
-------------------------------------------
As to IQ tests, I demand the people maligning him to make a choice.

Is Bush stupid and making the country do stupid things?

Or

Is Bush stupid, but controlled by intelligent forces that are making the country do evil things?

Because you can’t say that Bush is making the country do stupid things AND that he’s controlled by Cheney/Rumsfeld/etc.


If you try and eat your cake and have it too, then you’re being dishonest.

Avatar: As much as I hate what america is doing.. I hate what Kim is doing to his people even more.

so isnt that something that his people must decide they want changed, i mean if the N koreans rebelled then i wolud support them fully, however they seem to be content with the current situation, so no war is needed

There's probably no chance that NK's nuclear threat will be taken seriously, since the US is capable of massive retaliation like during the Cold War.

they can attack north korea as mush as they like, but nuclear war is the thing which will push the other 40% over the edge and the US will be swamped by rebels

so isnt that something that his people must decide they want changed, i mean if the N koreans rebelled then i wolud support them fully, however they seem to be content with the current situation, so no war is needed


Slayer its not at all that easy, he has firm control over the people with his military and intelligence agencies.. just like stalinist russia, It is impossible for the people to start a rebellion.

who says they have to be armed and organised, if they rebel in any form, then it is time for reform, until then any action the americans take against them i wolud consider to be as terrorist as all other american wars

who says they have to be armed and organised, if they rebel in any form, then it is time for reform, until then any action the americans take against them i wolud consider to be as terrorist as all other american wars


You still dont get it , rebellion of any form will be destroyed by the authorities there... no one can call for a reform either as they will be killed... your young and might not comprehend a way of life like this but trust me it has and will continue to happen ... especially when the outside world cant control that nation (which is up for argument)

You think people didnty want to reform or rebel in stalin's russia? of course they did but they all got sent to gulags or to the firing squad.

Ofcourse I agree I dont like america's envolvment in this, and the blame on communism for the state of the country, but I still dont like Kim...

no-one likes kim but kim. and communism is definitely not to blame, in fact if it was not for the capitalists treating the controversial new economic system as evil then it would have been able to develop to its full potential, but the capitalists declared war and forced the communists to spend money on weapons instead of welfare

(nail on the head) But still I would atleast keep the people at relevantly stable food levels before spending money on weapons.
, I dont respect or like kim for doing that to his people, no matter the circumstances.

no-one likes kim but kim. and communism is definitely not to blame, in fact if it was not for the capitalists treating the controversial new economic system as evil then it would have been able to develop to its full potential, but the capitalists declared war and forced the communists to spend money on weapons instead of welfare

Actually it was soviet paranoia and Russia's age old empire building phobia.
All imho of course. I won't defend my position. There are better things to do, but that is my oppinion.

His IQ is estimated to be equivalent to John F. Kennedy's.
Try reading if that's not too tough for you.
http://www.csbsju.edu/uspp/Election/bush011401.htm

Ok, then I was mistaken and misleaded. I apologize.
But I don't whitdraw my claim that Bush is an unintelligent moron, because I've heard enough of his speeches.

No, communism declared war on capitialism. If you had left us alone and not called us evil, then we might have lived in peace. But you promised our destruction... That scared us... and so we destroyed you first.


Next time choose better enemies... choose weaker ones.
===================================
Ok, then I was mistaken and misleaded. I apologize.
But I don't whitdraw my claim that Bush is an unintelligent moron, because I've heard enough of his speeches.
what do you think you'd sound like if 100 million people were listening to every one of your speeches?

I doubt he sounds like that in private.

Karmashock, other high status polititians don't seem to have that problem.

No, communism declared war on capitialism. If you had left us alone and not called us evil, then we might have lived in peace. But you promised our destruction... That scared us... and so we destroyed you first.


Next time choose better enemies... choose weaker ones.
===================================

what do you think you'd sound like if 100 million people were listening to every one of your speeches?

I doubt he sounds like that in private.

you were called evil for good reason, and you proved it. when it was said that capitalism would be destroyed that was in reference to the economic apartheid and unrest that it caused, communism will become the only way of life, and the more you try to resist it, the harder it is going to be when ruled under it

Damn I hate communists!

Karmashock, other high status polititians don't seem to have that problem.
You didn't answer my question. Have you ever given a speech in front of 200 people?


TV is very hard on our politicans. Back in the day you did most of your debating by writing essays or debating in a public square. Do you know how many of our presidents were just awful speakers? Lots of them were... doesn't mean they were dumb, just bad speakers. That bush is a bad speaker goes without saying... doesn't mean he's stupid.
==============================
you were called evil for good reason, and you proved it. when it was said that capitalism would be destroyed that was in reference to the economic apartheid and unrest that it caused, communism will become the only way of life, and the more you try to resist it, the harder it is going to be when ruled under it
You sealed your own fate when over threw a peaceful fledgling democracy in Russia and turned it into a Stalinist hellhole... followed by declaring the conquest of the planet.


Don't get all whiny on us cus we kicked your asses.

Communism is dead, get over it.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

communism is well alive whether you want to stay in the stone age or not

mm, why don't you go and live in NK?

communism is well alive whether you want to stay in the stone age or not
where is it alive and well? Cuba or NK? Cus china is only communist in name... and that isn't even going to last long.

Communism isn't compatible with human nature. Enough of ruined societies experimenting.

why not, the chinese economy is growing at insane speed currently, and since the US has become so reliant on chinese labour they will crumble as soon as china becomes self reliant. and with the primary capitalist influence gone socialist states will soon adopt a communist system

The chinese economy is not a communist one.

You didn't answer my question. Have you ever given a speech in front of 200 people?


TV is very hard on our politicans. Back in the day you did most of your debating by writing essays or debating in a public square. Do you know how many of our presidents were just awful speakers? Lots of them were... doesn't mean they were dumb, just bad speakers. That bush is a bad speaker goes without saying... doesn't mean he's stupid.
==============================

You sealed your own fate when over threw a peaceful fledgling democracy in Russia and turned it into a Stalinist hellhole... followed by declaring the conquest of the planet.


Don't get all whiny on us cus we kicked your asses.

Communism is dead, get over it.

Love and peace, Karmashock.


Your entire statement shows you live under a rock, and dont know what the hell you are talking about. Russia was never a fledgling democracy, it turned straight from monarchy to socialist in the bolshevik revolution.

As far as bad speakers goes he was refering to other leaders around the world. And bush is stupid because it can be seen by the things he does let alone the things he sais. "fish and humans can co-excist peacefully"

As for communism attacking capitolism first is a lie no one everl iked the idea of communism since it first started appearing because it questioned the selfish nature of a standard person. And the problem between the two is that both were trying to expand and take over the world at the same time each one questioned the other's ability to do so.

China isnt communist , its socialist communism has not excisted yet in any form.

The chinese economy is not a communist one.
ditto and duh :D


You've got people so rich in that country that they're building french castles... while you've got other people that are so poor that they've got food... and that's about it. Is that equal?
===========================
Your entire statement shows you live under a rock, and dont know what the hell you are talking about. Russia was never a fledgling democracy, it turned straight from monarchy to socialist in the bolshevik revolution.
This is a lie. One name: Alexander Kerensky

Lenin and all his ilk are ass holes. If someone had just shot that motherfucker in the head, then Russia might well have enjoyed freedom for most of this century instead of suffering under the state slavery of communism.

As far as bad speakers goes he was refering to other leaders around the world.
Again, I’m sure there have been emperors that stuttered and were nonetheless brilliant. Bush is a bad public speaker. That doesn't make him a bad private speaker or an idiot.

As for communism attacking capitolism first is a lie no one everl iked the idea of communism since it first started appearing because it questioned the selfish nature of a standard person.
Actually, if you really want to play chicken and egg games, Marx declared war on capitalism with his book "das capital". Marx invented your silly ideology/economic system and he declared war on capitalism before he had even finished his work on communism. His whole reason for creating it was because he hated capitalism in the first place.


Your people made war on us, not the other way around. You lost that war. It's over.

What's that? You still want to fight? So does the black knight.
http://www.dustcatchers.com/toys/sideshow/montypython/mon_blackknight.jpg

And the problem between the two is that both were trying to expand and take over the world at the same time each one questioned the other's ability to do so.
Empire is as empire does... who have you ever helped? Have you ever made anyone's life any better? Ever? My country is filled with MILLIONS of refugees from the slaughter of communism! We've got Jews that fled Russia, Afghans that fled during the soviet occupation, we have Vietnamese that fled before and after the Vietnam war, we have Koreans, and we have Cubans.

Who immigrates to communist countries? No one. They're hellholes. No one wants to live in your sick system. As much as people bitch about the materialistic US, people actually want to live here.


Seriously... go live in NK or Cuba if you like it so much....don't drag us down with you.

Love, peace, and prosperity, Karmashock.

Karmashock dont wash me with ignorance.

Alexander Kerensky: Ye whats your point he started the new socialist system which the americans labeled as (communist).

As for Lenin , he actually did some good unlike Stalin who truely deserves to die. As for suffering under the tyrany of communism have you ever lived under it? no . I have I enjoyed it alot more than what russia and the other SVD countries have turned into now.

Oh so bush is now an emperor, Im talking about the presidents of european countries there are plenty who speak alot better than bush and most of them dont do the stupid shit bush is doing.

Marx developed marxism on which communism was founded that dosnt meen that communist countries addopted the same idea of total destruction of capitolism.

Capitolism will fall due to its own flaws sooner or later.

As for that obsene statment "who have you ever helped"
*Compare Soviet central Asia to the surrounding countries. They have 100% literacy, they had (some time ago) medicine and level of life which was much higher than the surrounding countries. During soviet the era huge amounts of money were invested in Developing countries in Africa, Asia, Latin America.
Not to mention saving europe from nazi opression in ww2.
The people who go to america from russia have a high level of education and leave for work.
By the way there are loads of refugees from afganistan and vietnam living in moscow, so dont think your the only centre for escape, i would rather commit ritual suicide than go back to the states , so do several of my jewish friends who would rather stay in russia.

As for Nk goes.. I dont like what their doing or consider them communist so no i wont live there.

As for cuba. I owuld Like to but its hard to get there.


And comparing any excistent socialist country to the idea of communism is stupid. The failures of those countries does not affect the real idea of communism which in it self is very good.

Karmashock dont wash me with ignorance.

Alexander Kerensky: Ye whats your point he started the new socialist system which the americans labeled as (communist).
Nope, we didn't label it anything. He was not a Bolshevik... he was a product of the nearly bloodless February Revolution... which we supported as opposed to the very bloody October revolution which damned that country for the better part of a hundred years... which we didn't support.

If anyone is ignorent in this, it is you. Kerensky wanted to stay in WWI and the Bolsheviks used anti war sentiment and violence to institute their slavish regime.

As for Lenin he actually did some
no, he was as much an asshole as the rest... perhaps not a horrible as Stalin... but that's just because stalin is hard to compete with when it comes to evil fucks.

I have I enjoyed it alot more than what russia and the other SVD countries have turned into now.
If that were the case, then that's what the people would ask for... they're not.

Oh so bush is now an emperor
I didn't say that, don't be cheap.

Im talking about the presidents of european countries there are plenty who speak alot better than bush and most of them dont do the stupid shit bush is doing.
What stupid thing has bush done?

Marx developed marxism on which communism was founded that dosnt meen that communist countries addopted the same idea of total destruction of capitolism.
How were we supposed to take their aggression and expansion after WWII? How were we supposed to take the phrase "we will bury you!"

Get fucking real.

Capitolism will fall due to its own flaws sooner or later.
Unlike communism, we're organic. We evolve. The capitalism of today is far more advanced then it was 100 years ago. If we have so many weaknesses, then why are we the strongest countries on the planet?... why do we keep getting stronger?

Face it, we rule.

As for that obsene statment "who have you ever helped"
*Compare Soviet central Asia to the surrounding countries. They have 100% literacy, they had (some time ago) medicine and level of life which was much higher than the surrounding countries. During soviet the era huge amounts of money were invested in Developing countries in Africa, Asia, Latin America.
You've bribed a few regimes... good work. Any one would rather live in japan, tiawan, or South Korea over China, north Korea, or Vietniam.

Not to mention saving europe from nazi opression in ww2.
No, you just put them under communist oppression... The breaking of the berlin wall was beautiful thing... all those people being freed from your degenerate empire.

As to WWII
The US had as large an army as Russia did in WWII and many times the resources. We were the industrial engine for most of the allied war effort. We even supplied the russians to a great extent.


Anyway, we crushed the Nazi air force. Russia didn't start wiping the Germans out until Germany had to redirect all of its air power to keep us from bombing Berlin.
Of course, we didn't do it alone either... there was the British, Canadians, and Australians too... The English-speaking world is not to be trifled with.

The people who go to america from russia have a high level of education and leave for work.
That's not what they told us.


As for Nk goes.. I dont like what their doing or consider them communist so no i wont live there.
Do you admit that they would be better off if they were a part of South Korea?

If you're honest you will.

As for cuba. I owuld Like to but its hard to get there.
No it isn't. Fly to Mexico or Canada first. There are flights there every day. You just can't fly straight from the US to Cuba


And comparing any excistent socialist country to the idea of communism is stupid. The failures of those countries does not affect the real idea of communism which in it self is very good.
Yes it does. Capitalism works. Democracy works. They're more then ideas. Communism leads to horror.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

U.S. forces intervened on the side of the Tsarists before the revolution was over. There was no way to know how things would turn out for a Bolshevik Russia at that time, our intervention in a civil war was purely ideological.

In other words, the United States, independent of its associated allies, and knowing full well from reports of their own people in Russia that the Bolsheviks were not agents of the German government, had decided to intervene in the Russian Revolution on the side of the anti-Bolsheviks, and in support of a "military dictatorship." The actual American intervention did not take place then, in December, 1917. Those rumored Tsarist generals proved to be generals without soldiers, and the United States had to wait until a more suitable military force arose in opposition to the Bolsheviks. That suitable military force came later, in 1918, and the United States then intervened. The point that must be made here is that as early as December 11, 1917, only one month after the Bolshevik seizure of power, the President of the United States had decided in principle on intervention in Russia......

.......Additional evidence of the essential and primary bias against the Bolsheviks in motivating American intervention came in the first month of 1918, when American military advisors in Russia urged the United States government to assist the Bolsheviks in resisting the continuing German advance -- with whom Russia was still at war. Then, in February, the French government formally asked the United States if it would join with France in a general collaboration with the Bolsheviks, against the Germans.

Lansing, after submitting the formal French request to Wilson, later penciled the notation upon it: "This is out of the question. Submitted to the President who says the same thing." That was February 19, 1918. In Moscow, a few days later, the Bolshevik Central Committee voted to accept assistance from the allies if it was offered --Lenin himself cast the tie-breaking vote. And on March 5, Lenin and Trotsky gave to Raymond Robins, an official of the American Red Cross mission in Russia, a specific inquiry about the possibility of beginning talks concerning United States aid to Soviet Russia.

It seems clear that had the United States government been more anti-German than it was anti-Bolshevik, February and March, 1918, would have been the time to demonstrate some. As Professor William A. Williams has correctly observed, "American leaders were of course interested in re-establishing resistance to the Germans on the eastern front, but they were not sufficiently anti-German to overcome their anti-Bolshevism." Without assistance, the Bolsheviks had to seek peace with the Germans. Their decision to accept the heavy demands of Germany in order to gain peace and, in their minds, to save the revolution, set in motion a series of events, leading to armed intervention by over a dozen nations, the United States included, and one of the most brutal and costly civil wars in history.

http://www.mmmfiles.com/archive/civilwar.htm

If we hadn't intervened in their civil war, who knows how things might have turned out? They might have ended up as threatening as the Socialists in Western Europe. But the brutality of the war strengthened the hand of the authoritarians who came to power, and they had no love for the U.S. since we had helped their opposition, and declared war on them.

There's probably no chance that NK's nuclear threat will be taken seriously, since the US is capable of massive retaliation like during the Cold War.

That's not much of a threat to North Korea. One nuke being set off in a highly populated U.S. city would probably have more of an impact than of North Korea being wiped off the map. So in this case, I think North Korea can still use threats even knowing about the consequence of sure destruction of themselves. M.A.D.D. between the U.S. and U.S.S.R. just do not compare to North Korea. Russia had lots to lose, North Korea doesn't. This is the same reason why "terrorists" fight as they do by blowing themselves up because once one is oppressed there's not much to lose. It’s not as “mentally ill” as the government would like one to think.

“When you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose.” – Bob Dylan

- N

No, communism declared war on capitialism. If you had left us alone and not called us evil, then we might have lived in peace. But you promised our destruction... That scared us... and so we destroyed you first.

Remember that quote, and hold no bias when applying it. :)

- N

Remember that quote, and hold no bias when applying it. :)

- N
HAHAHAHAHA :D
vice versa indeed
axis of evil, eh?

Remember that quote, and hold no bias when applying it. :)

- N
I'm glad the terrorists are scared... they should be... we're coming.

Unlike the soviets, we won't lose. ;)

Bullshit bullshit bullshit blah blah blah blah blah blah


Lets face it we have 2 totally different view points and arguing over it wont change either of our opinions.

All this capitalism vs communism never seems to be resolved. Maybe it's cliché, but why can't we seek some sort of middle ground? Might it not eventually undermine the support of extremist governments/dictatorships?

As for a M.A.D. policy against NK, I don't see how they have nothing to lose. If they are trying to improve their position in the world by using nuclear threats then it doesn't help to be completely annihilated.

Unlike the soviets, we won't lose

No you won't lose, you'll implode.

Lets face it we have 2 totally different view points and arguing over it wont change either of our opinions.
No, this isn't a matter of opinion. This is historical record. Are you Russian? Cus I talked to Ukrainian in the states (recent immigrant) that had a head full of propaganda. We're both at a university, so I made him a bet on some of his claims and we went to the library. We reviewed the material, and I won... It was only one dollar but I didn't really care... I felt good about knocking that propaganda out of his head.

/smiles/ Were those American books? I mean.. american author interpretation of history?
I've read some history books from the 30s, etc, and they all have their twist of propoganda or at least interpretation of history.
The russians have their distinct one (we saved Europe from the Nazis), the americans do (we saved Europe from the nazis), French do (we kicked nazis ass), probably some still living nazis also have their version (just wait and we'll kick your ass again).

/smiles/ Were those American books? I mean.. american author interpretation of history?
Not one of the facts was contrversal. Any one of them could be varified by a hundred difference sources. The soviets admited to the more sketchy ones when they USSR fell.

As for a M.A.D. policy against NK, I don't see how they have nothing to lose. If they are trying to improve their position in the world by using nuclear threats then it doesn't help to be completely annihilated.

By having to resort to using nuclear threats to improve their position in the world only shows their desperation and how little they have. I mean c'mon, their citizens are killing each other and eating each other due to lack of food, as an example.

- N

P.S. Heh, I put M.A.D.D., darn that Mothers Against Drunk Driving logo getting stuck in my head. :p

The IQ test in general is faulty.
His brain is also faulty, ya know? :D :cool:
(yes, I'm talking about GWB)

No, this isn't a matter of opinion. This is historical record. Are you Russian? Cus I talked to Ukrainian in the states (recent immigrant) that had a head full of propaganda. We're both at a university, so I made him a bet on some of his claims and we went to the library. We reviewed the material, and I won... It was only one dollar but I didn't really care... I felt good about knocking that propaganda out of his head.


I would like to knock the propoganda out of your head. As far as brain washing goes your the one affected by the cold war xenophobia of the Ussr, and if he's a recent immegrant he will be affected by the shit pool kuchma left in the press in ukrain, you must remember that ukrains former president was a close friend of yelsin, and both enjoyed washing news reports.

And its all based on opinion because I will remain a supporter of communism when we'r done as you will a supporter of capitolism .. thats all there is to it.

And please dont wash me in Ignorance like you always do "your russian arent you?"

And its all based on opinion because I will remain a supporter of communism when we'r done as you will a supporter of capitolism .. thats all there is to it.
And I will remain a supporter of a state guided capitalistic economy in the favour of its' citizens who have state guaranteed liberal rights.

Getting a hold of nukes makes good sense for any country out there, it guarantees almost as much safety as the US's $450 billion conventional army at a fraction of the cost. Nukes, as long as they don't get into the hands of terrorists or radicals, actually keep the peace better than a conventional army would. No sane government would launch an attack against a country that has access to nukes, because the fallout of a nuclear conflict would inflict more damage on the world than any conventional army ever could.

If all the nukes are held by sane governments.

Neildo: their citizens are killing each other and eating each other due to lack of food, as an example.

Is that true? If conditions are really that bad then I think it will not be long before Kim's government implodes - to me what NK is going through now seems like a re-enactment of the Cold War on a smaller scale, with mismanaged government spending leading ultimately to economic collapse. And for all those who still believe in leninism, the spectacular failure of the Soviet-era GOSPLAN, the kolkhovs, and other state-controlled apparatus should be convincing enough that ultimately, communism doesn't work.

Getting a hold of nukes makes good sense for any country out there, it guarantees almost as much safety as the US's $450 billion conventional army at a fraction of the cost. Nukes, as long as they don't get into the hands of terrorists or radicals, actually keep the peace better than a conventional army would. No sane government would launch an attack against a country that has access to nukes, because the fallout of a nuclear conflict would inflict more damage on the world than any conventional army ever could.

If all the nukes are held by sane governments.


problem is no one would ever use their nukes.. politicians are scared of them.

In one of his books Douglas Adams told that the most dangerous thing in existance is not weapons of terrible destruction, but people insane enough to use them.
NK seems to be pretty radical.

I agree. but still doubt they would use them

His brain is also faulty, ya know? :D :cool:
(yes, I'm talking about GWB)

Seems kind of stupid to use your faulty brain to accuse people of faulty brains. In this case, I don't think it takes one to know one. You just... are one.

I don't think he's the brightest man who ever lived, but he's obviously brighter than you.

wesmorris, your ad hominems no matter how well placed don't contribute to the quality and topic of this discussion or forum.

I agree. but still doubt they would use them
I think they would, if the gov. of NK sees their day of doom. They know that noone will pity them. So to save their honour and not stand in war trials (funny it's mostly the loosers who get war tried) I think it's pretty possible they will use their nuclear arsenal (if any) to not give an inch of NK to the hated (by them) USA.
It's the end of history for them in either case. As someone said here previously: people who have nothing have nothing to lose. The gov. will have nothing to lose if the USA attacks them or the country finally falls in hell from famine, etc.

Don't you think so? I'm interested in hearing your view.

[QUOTE=Karmashock] Cus I talked to Ukrainian in the states (recent immigrant) that had a head full of propaganda.
You say that as if your head wasn't full of propaganda. Maybe you should learn some spelling and grammar from somewhere other than the George W. Bush Skool of riting.

I would like to knock the propoganda out of your head. As far as brain washing goes your the one affected by the cold war xenophobia of the Ussr, and if he's a recent immegrant he will be affected by the shit pool kuchma left in the press in ukrain, you must remember that ukrains former president was a close friend of yelsin, and both enjoyed washing news reports.

And its all based on opinion because I will remain a supporter of communism when we'r done as you will a supporter of capitolism .. thats all there is to it.

And please dont wash me in Ignorance like you always do "your russian arent you?"
Lets do it. Put up or shut up.

I dont think physical violence works over the net.. we need to wait till MSN 9