Alright people,

I'd like to affirm my position here and now and back it all with clear evidence in my own thread.

Here we go:

Firstly, for those who think otherwise, I'm not against Palestinians getting a state of their own. I see this situation as a work in progress....

If we take a look at the situation, a few murderes blow themselves up every week. Although its decreased in frequency, it continues to happen. and nothing is Done. The school sytstem is littered with anti-Israeli propoganda. THe extremists are teaching the young children that murder is okay, and that Israeli people (as well as anyone american) are bad. That a disgusting philosophy. And sadly, its the dominating one. You can see what happens when those two ideas merge -- murder Israelis because there bad and they hate you.

Well, their plan is working, and with great support from the international community. They continue to send money to the cell style government of Arafat where no one is resposible and everyone condemns. Where's the credibility in that? This only worsens the situation, and postpones and prospect of a palestinian state at the expense of the people.

Israel is asking one thing: that Arafats government be reformed (now), and that responsibility is taken for terrorists and their CHILDREN. Where's the problem with that?? Is arafats career too much to pay for the wellbeing of his people???

The international community, says no, maybe we can try to work around that, and has being saying such since the days arafat has led the terrorists group cloaked as the PLO (which is now known as the PA).


Forming a Palestinian state greatly affects Isreal. THeyr're not heartless oppresors as so many of you blindly believe. When Israel says, "we will only help the formation of a palestian state if OUR safety and wellbeing isn't sacrificed" people still hold the literal mentality that a palestinian wellbeing should be held above that at all cost of the Israeli's. That's what's stopping a palestinian state, that byproduct arrogance, coming off the godliness of foreign politicians who only wish to get re-elected.

So Israel says "we'll help you form a legitimate state, not a terrorist base" legitamite states require responsible government who will take FULL responsibility for the actions of their people. THE PA does not do that. THerefore, as long as they;re present, a new state cant exists. 2+2=4, 2 plus one doesnt. Its as simple as that.
Is spreading anti-israeli propogranda throughtout the school system not enough proof that his government is constituted irresponsible cowards???




So answer me these question:
If a people cannot hold a responsible government, then how can they hold a state with no violent threats to it's neighbors??
How can you expect the democratically elected government of a country to allow immediate patriation of a country that poses a direct threat to the people of that country.

They're simple questions, and I can only expect the simple answer of-- no, they cant have a state until they're responsible for themselves.
How am I in the wrong?

It sounds logical Elbaz, that is why America is with you. But most others are not. So what is the problem? Is there another side to the story? We need a Palestinian POV too.

Somewhere in this forum I had a solution to the problem. But until the real mediators do their thing, we can post till cows come home - peace wont break out. If we at the forum had the capacity to influence such mediation, the problem would have solved by now.

In the mean time...we can only hope....

I should be awarded some sort of salary for going around correcting your errors!

Elbaz:
The school sytstem is littered with anti-Israeli propoganda. THe extremists are teaching the young children that murder is okay, and that Israeli people (as well as anyone american) are bad. That a disgusting philosophy. And sadly, its the dominating one. You can see what happens when those two ideas merge -- murder Israelis because there bad and they hate you.


Don't tell me, you've read the Palestinian curriculum. You haven't? Well, lets tak a look at that from someone who has:

According to a November 2001 paper published by George Washington University Professor Nathan Brown, "the Palestinian curriculum is not a war curriculum; while highly nationalistic, it does not incite hatred, violence, and anti-Semitism. It cannot be described as a 'peace curriculum' either, but the charges against it are often wildly exaggerated or inaccurate."

http://www.nad-plo.org/textbooks/nathan_textbook.pdf

Your argument (the mirror of US and Israeli ones) is that the Palestinian Authority must reform itself into an institution that takes responsibility for its actions and can thus become a responisible government.

Further, all terrorists must cease violence and then Israel will engage in talks for a Palestinian state.


From a Paelstinian perspective, there are some probelms with this approach.

First, the Palestinians would argue that no other nation state in the world is required to show the high standards of governance you would like to impose prior to determining their own fate. Let's be honest, it's a short-term policy anyway. Suppose the PA reforms and is as ideal as you'd like - what's to stop them electing some virulent anti-Israel leader when they get their own state? Nothing. So why try and dictate policy now? It is hardly fair to judge the somewhat incompetent PA on the basis of the limited powers it has obver the past few years anyway. This, quite honestly, is a delaying tactic.

Second, there is little trust of the Israeli government. From Oslo to the start of the second Intifadah Israel delayed, lied and ultimatley backed away from their responsibilities. During that same period there was barely a murmur of violence in Israel from Palestinians, but Israel settlements in the occupied territories (which they promised to stop) accelerated by over 100%. Hardly a trust building measure given the Palestinians were living up to their end of the deal.

And now Israel's ruling party has refused to allow a Palestinian state at all. Arafat accepts Israel's right to exist but not, I'm afraid, vice-versa. No Israeli PM can now deliver any agreement on Palestinian nationhood given the opposition in the Knesset.

Thirdly, the only people who can end the violence are the Israelis. You say - stop violence and we'll give you a state. Palestinians say you're not going to trick us again. If Israel said here you go - take it - that would be it. End of violence. Why is there violence? Because there is occupation. End the occupation end the violence.

Yes, it's that simple.

People, let me know what u think.
It's very very important to me to know what u think.

Then I tell u my point of view.


Just groove on!! (dedicated to RipleOfDeath... ;))


Love u all,
Gil Weinstein

Elbaz,

Let's imagine we are neighbors. Your house is right next to mine. I have a belief that my God gave me your house, so I decide to occupy it and treat you as a second class citizen.

After about 35 years, you start getting pissed off. Every once in a while you go to my house and blow something up. I decide not to give you your house back because you keep blowing up things my house.

All the other neighbors on our block support me. They tell you to enter peace negotiations with me so that maybe one day you might get part of your house back.

Kind of a shitty deal for you, isn't it.

Think about it a little.

Tom

What about the both sides???

And your "fable" is not suitable enough for the real situation here, in my bleeding HOME.

Accept it or not, it's my HISTORIC home, and my neighbour just wants the fucking little GREEN land which left to us, the Jewish people.

And you know why?
Because it's GREEN, whilst his BIG homes full of anger, hate, racizm and natism.

Arafat and his leadership has been growing a new generation which full of ultimate hate to the Israelis, and- TO THEMSELVES!!
All their school books and the media are full of brain-washing content and evil materials, making little children and women to suicide themselves for killing other people, for nothing.



I don't need to give you info, sources and links on the net.
You know it very well.


So what's the problem?

Have u ever tried living like that?
Getting killed, loosing your friends, afraid to get out to streets just because you "took" a very little piece (about 1.5%)
of the Mid East land???

They can go back to Jordan or Cairo, if they want.
Joran is worse than Israel. They know it.
The grass there is full of evil flowers (Not all the flowers, however)

Try to understand me a little, Tom.
U can respect my beliefs or don't. It's not the point!


TNX for listening to me.

Love u all,
Gil Weinstein. :)

"The grass is always greener on the other side ,
the neighbours got a new car that you wanna drive
and when time is running out you wanna stay alive

We all live under the same sky
we all will live we all will die
There is no wrong
Ther is no right
The circle only has one side"

(Side, Travis---my favorite Band :))

Dear Captain Canada!!!

We stoped "occupying" the land. All we want now is a normal life.
The other side wants it also.

But-
people (if we can call them that way) like Yassir Arafat continuind with their evil deeds.
In Oslo Agreements, for instance, Israel really wanted to help the Palestinians, to rebuild their life, we even gave them a lot of money, especially for the education section.

And what Arafat and his demons did????

Simply. They have been established hate factories.
Arafat has never tried ,even a little bit, to STOP the viloence, to talk with his people about love. Even about love to themselves


Ok, Israel has done bad things. No one is perfect.

But look what their leadership is doing.

I'm really sorry for that, not just for my people, but to them also.


Bye 4 now.

Peace from Israel,

Gil Weinstein.

End the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights and you'll have my full support should any violence continue. Until then, I may not agree with Palestinian tactics, but they have a case that needs to be answered. And don't give me the 'Arafat had a deal on a plate and walked away' line. That tired piece of propoganda is dead in the water. Less than 50% of the area occupied illegally by Israel was offered in a series of Bantustans. Palestinians need a genuine state. When that happens, peace can come. But you'll need to dismantle the 'settlements' I'm afraid. Colonialism and expansion through militarty conquest has no place in the world anymore.

Just withdraw and everyone will be with you. Until then you are the occupying power denying the Palestinians their just right to self-determination.

Gil Weinstein,

Let me remind you that before 1947 there was Palestine. Jews wanted their own country.(Why a religion should have it's own country, I don't know. I consider myself a scientist. Maybe scientists should have their own country as well, since science could be considered a religion)

Back to my point, in 1947, the United Nations split Palestine into a Jewish side and an Arab side so that both religions can have their own country.

Now it's over fifty years later, and there is NO Arab side anymore. Israel got half, and then just took the other half. Where is the Arab side of Palestine that was promised to them by the UN????

About the Palestinians teaching hate, if my country was illegally occupied for 35 years, I would be teaching hate to my kids as well. What are they supposed to do, teach their kids to love their occupier???

Tom

The Six Day War was forced on us, we didn't want it to happen.

But our neighbours DID.

Jordan is a really diffucult target for the people who threw out of there.

We in Israel truly want a peace, but what kind of peace?

If Arafat will still be there, when we give them a country, he will continue to his next step- OCCUPYING Tel Aviv.

So, what will you say then? That the Jewish occupied Tel Aviv and it's a sin???

If you say so, then USA, Canada, UK and other many countries have no right to exist..!!

Anyway, Haifa, where I live now (BTW- I'm 16 years old), is a very good example of Arabs and Jewish live in harmony and true respect to each other. I'm so PROUD of that, but...

Arafat wants to put the end to this. He sends brain-washed suicide bombers even to Haifa, and I'm totally afraid when every morning I get to school on the bus, and don't know if it's my last ride with my Arab and Jewish friends.

BTW- let me correct you. Israel is not based on religion.
It's the country of Jewish (Most citizen are Jewish), not the Jewish country.


True peace,
Gil Weinstein


TNX for your comments! :)

After the 1967 War, Golda Meir said to the enemies of Israel,
<B>"We can forgive you for killing our children; however, we can never forgive you for forcing us to kill your children."</B>

Gil,

If Arafat will still be there, when we give them a country, he will continue to his next step- OCCUPYING Tel Aviv.

If the Palestinians have their own country, people like Arafat would become obsolete. And if he did attempt to do something like that, there would be no sympathy in the world for the Palestinians anymore.

But you also have to remember, you would give the land to the Palestinians, not to Arafat. Arafat is just temporary and he's getting old, he'll be gone before you know it. But the Palestinian people will remain your neighbors.

BTW- let me correct you. Israel is not based on religion.
It's the country of Jewish (Most citizen are Jewish), not the Jewish country

I know people here in the US that are Israeli citizens even though they've never been in Israel. The only reason they are Israeli citizens, is because they are Jews. As far as I know, they can vote in the Israeli elections as well.

On the other hand, the Palestinians can't vote in the Israeli elections. Since Israel considers the Gaza Strip and the West Bank a part of Israel wouldn't that make Palestinians Israeli citizens with all the rights(voting) of any other Israeli citizen???

Unfortunately, the reason Palestinians in the occupied territories can't vote is because they are the wrong religion. If the Palestinians were Jews, I don't think there would be a problem, do you??

The Six Day War was forced on us, we didn't want it to happen.

Regardless of whether it was forced upon you or not, you can't punish civilians, by occupying their land, for things that their government or military did. In any conflict, civilians should be left alone during a conflict, or after the conflict is over.

Finally, who does the land of Israel truely belong to?? The answer is it doesn't belong to anyone. The fact is that every country in the world was, at some point, occupied by a nation or group, that is no longer in control of that country. The US once belonged to the Native Americans, while Europe at one time or another, belonged to just about everyone nation or group in Europe. To argue about who owns a piece of land is an arguement that can never be resolved. So what do you do???

What you can do is to create an international organization that will determine the borders of every country. This organization was created after WW2, and it's called the UN. Once the UN decides the borders of a country, no foriegn power, under any circumstance, has the right to change those borders. As you know, the UN decided, in 1947, that a part of Palestine will remain for the Palestinians. I believe that no one, not even Israel, has the right to take this personal right away.

Tom

Given that 85% of all palestinians fully support terror attacks on Israel, I believe that a bloodbath is the only solution. Fill the streets with dirty bigoted muslim blood. The palestinian people are not worthy of existence any longer. I fully support any and all reprisals that Israel may take against them. Negotiated peace only works when you are dealing with rational human beings. The palestinians are the least rational people to ever exist on this planet.

Captain Canada should be ashamed of himself for smearing an ally like Israel. He seems to have forgotten that he is living on land stolen from another people as well. Hypocrite!

First I will reply to Brad Rules:

<I><B>
" 1) Negotiated peace only works when you are dealing with rational human beings. 2) The palestinians are the least rational people to ever exist on this planet. "</B></I>

You're right. Israel has given to the palestinians many chances ro rubuild their life, to bring peace to the area, but they rejected them all.
MOST of them simply want to kill us, and they get support from Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Syria and Saudia, and worse than that- they get support from blind people like you, Captain Canada, my dear friend.

I told you one, I will tell you once more:

ISRAEL WANTED, WANT AND WILL WANT PEACE FOREVER.
Listen to our last message, "light a candle".

For now maybe, "The palestinians are the least rational people to ever exist on this planet", but in my opinion nice people like Captain Canada ARE the least rational on our bleeding planet.


<B><I>Captain Canada should be ashamed of himself for smearing an ally like Israel. He seems to have forgotten that he is living on land stolen from another people as well. Hypocrite!</I></B>


Yeh, we all should be ashamed of ourselves, but we need to learn from our mistakes\sins\errors.

People always forget. But Captain Canada, will you ever learn something?


Thanx for the great supporting, Brad Rules.
It cheers me.
:)

I am a touch confused.

Gil:
We in Israel truly want a peace

Truly he says. Then...

Brad Rules:
I believe that a bloodbath is the only solution. Fill the streets with dirty bigoted muslim blood. The palestinian people are not worthy of existence any longer.

followed by:

Gil:
Thanx for the great supporting, Brad Rules.
It cheers me.



I think we all see where you're both coming from! Hate. And you wonder why there's a problem!?

If you're prepared to engage in something that at least bares a passing resemblance to argument and reasoned thought I'll be around...

A. Captain Canada, you don't honestly believe there is no war/terrorism propoganda on the Palestinian side, do you? Trust me, there's more than enough propoganda for the whole world on both sides of the conflict. I suppose they use maps that have no Israel on them for geological reasons?

B. I forget the exact story, but I believe that technically Israel used to belong to the Jews, but they were kicked out a long long long time ago, and now the Arabs are pissed off they're back, because it's "their" homeland, so both sides honestly believe it's their homeland (which I guess is kinda true). Correct me if I'm wrong, my world history is a little fuzzy around several thousand years ago.

Proosthus, you're exactly right, every country was at one time occupied by another, and as long as the UN remains fair (which some would say is debatable, but I think they're fine for now anyways) everyone, including Israel, should respect the borders.

Of course, if terror attacks continually come from one country against another, it has a right to defend itself, militarily if necessary. What else are they supposed to do, give in to terrorist demands? If they did, it would be open season, everyoen who wants anything would run terror attacks and demand something. They other option is to sit there and let its citizens die.

Originally posted by Captain Canada
I am a touch confused.

Of course u are confused!!
I tell you why.
First, You in UK think that you're PERFECT, but you DENY the truth
that your country is also was established after bloody hystory.
Second, according to your PERFECT behavior, you are trying to be very nice to the muslims in your country. Too nice.
But times will come and then you see...
The citizen will feel the dander of big islamic movements in YOUR lovely country, Captain Canada, and then they will kick out these muslims. I bet you. So stop your naivety.

Originally posted by Captain Canada

I think we all see where you're both coming from! Hate. And you wonder why there's a problem!?

If you're prepared to engage in something that at least bares a passing resemblance to argument and reasoned thought I'll be around...


Hate? Let me remind you the HATE in your country, Captain.
Racizm, Nazism, stoping the immigrants entrance to your big and rich country.

I know the reason for HATING US, the Israelis.
You are simply JEALOUS, dear Captain Canada!.
"Jealous? in what?" you might ask, so I answer you:
<B>You are jealous because we succeeded to establish a GREAT country which full of beauty and love.

You are even getting worse when you hear that people here are support Israel. You can't face it, cause suddenly you understand that you are blind.</B>

Gil...

I guess I must really be hitting a nerve to be subjected to such personal (and now national) attacks! Scratch beneath the surface of a self-styled 'man of peace' and you soon see the bloodlust. Oh well.

I will, of course, address my comments to those with a point and an argument. I enjoyed the rant, but there really is no reason to respond. I think we can both agree on one thing - your comment stands for itself!

SpyFox_the_KMeson...

A. Captain Canada, you don't honestly believe there is no war/terrorism propoganda on the Palestinian side, do you? Trust me, there's more than enough propoganda for the whole world on both sides of the conflict. I suppose they use maps that have no Israel on them for geological reasons?


I don't believe everything the Palestinians say. Nor do I agree everyting the Israelis say. I also distrust the media you are force-fed. I suppose the Israelis use maps that have no occupied terirotries or Palestine on them for geological reasons? But so what? Clearly both sides view the land as theirs.

Of course, if terror attacks continually come from one country against another, it has a right to defend itself, militarily if necessary. What else are they supposed to do, give in to terrorist demands? If they did, it would be open season, everyoen who wants anything would run terror attacks and demand something. They other option is to sit there and let its citizens die.

Funny. When Iraq invaded Kuwait (it did have a legitimate historical claim - not to mention the fact that the Kuwaitis were stealing Iraqi oil) there was no talk of the Kuwaitis negotiating a settlement. Or showing that they had the democratic institutions that warranted their claim to nationhood. Kuwaiti resistence was not condemned. The international community did not ask Kuwaitis to disarm, disavow violence and negotiate a compromise to give them 50% of the country back. Iraqi losses to armed resistence was not viewed with sympathy. The UN passes resolutions calling for Iraq to withdraw - this was why the US went in. Very similar resolutions ask Israel to withdraw. No one even bothers with sanctions.

Under the terms of the Geneva convention (to which Israel is laughably a signatory) states under occupation are allowed to resist through force. Colonisation of occupied land is barred.

Don't give in to terrorism. That's what Thatcher and Reagan said in the 1980s when people called for Mandela's release from prison. The US State Department listed the ANC as a terrorist organisation right up to its accession to government. The taliban was not a terrorist group when it fought Russians, but it was when it fought Americans.

Tell me, do you believe everything you're told without the merest question?

As for the US media - it is warped:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020610&s=massing

1. How is the building of settlements on the West Bank equivalent to the murder of innocent civilians? :bugeye:
2. How can an outsider impose a peace if both parties are unable or unwilling to carry it out? :bugeye:

1. Both are considered illegal internationally. (if you're judging the morality of the argument through a death count then you're looking at over 1,200 Palestinian dead against 200 Israeli in the past two years...)

2. You can't. But you can try. That's why we use sanctions ins't it?

Originally posted by Brad Rules
Given that 85% of all palestinians fully support terror attacks on Israel, I believe that a bloodbath is the only solution. Fill the streets with dirty bigoted muslim blood. The palestinian people are not worthy of existence any longer. I fully support any and all reprisals that Israel may take against them. Negotiated peace only works when you are dealing with rational human beings. The palestinians are the least rational people to ever exist on this planet.

Captain Canada should be ashamed of himself for smearing an ally like Israel. He seems to have forgotten that he is living on land stolen from another people as well. Hypocrite!

Are you the same pathetic kid who has been insulted and riped apart repeatdly by one of the members here in forum because of your idiotic ideas to kill all the arabs??. If you are,..........oh well then........please don't reply to a nice argumental thread. I mean you just can't think from your brain and I feel pitty for you. :( :(

Captain appears ignorant of the fact that Israel is the only democracy in the region and it is the only country in the region that recognizes human rights.

All of the arab regimes are repressive and totalitarian.... EVERY FRIGGIN ONE OF 'EM. We should support demolishing these racist, repressive, fanatic regimes.... not creating more of them.

Captain believes that only good europeans like himself are deserving of democratic governance and therefor virulently opposes any democratic governments in the Middle East. With friends like him, the arabs don't need enemies.

Originally posted by Brad Rules

:D Where do you get your medication from? I hope not walmart. Since the side affects are pretty serious.:p

Prosoothus:
Elbaz, Let's imagine we are neighbors. Your house is right next to mine. I have a belief that my God gave me your house, so I decide to occupy it and treat you as a second class citizen.

After about 35 years, you start getting pissed off. Every once in a while you go to my house and blow something up. I decide not to give you your house back because you keep blowing up things my house.

All the other neighbors on our block support me. They tell you to enter peace negotiations with me so that maybe one day you might get part of your house back.

First off, Prosoothus, I'd like to remind you of the old saying:
what's right is not always popular, and whats popular is not always right. In the southern US a couple hundred years ago, everyone was pro-slavery for example. Everyone supported slavery, including those who bought merchandise or sold the slaves. Was it right? Think about it.


Concerning the first part of this quote:
All you've done is interpretted the situation into the way you think of it. IF you look at the facts, you'll see that Jewish immigrants to the region bought the land generously from a willing Palestinian people. They didnt "TAKE IT" as you seem to imply. It's a fair transaction in my book. They claim rape and we say, "dont spread your legs and be sending the wrong signal!!!"
Concerning the rest:
The most vocal (a large majority) opposed Jewish 'occupation of the land. THey started all of the wars, including the one designed to rid them of the region and take back 'their land'. As well, extremists wont do extreme things like blow themselves up once in a while, they'll do it as frequently as they can. Thats what makes them extremists. Any post '67 land the Israeli's have right now is extremely strategic and important. And as I've said, until Israel is guaranteed security, it should be in a vulnerable position.
The majority isn't always right, and just because everyone on the block is tellin' me to jump off a building doesnt mean I should.

Captain Canada
Don't tell me, you've read the Palestinian curriculum. You haven't? Well, lets tak a look at that from someone who has:
When I hear news of textbooks that show Palestine in the place where Israel should sit, I sure as hell consider that Nationalistic. Sure they're not inciting hatred, they're just sending a different message. And indirect feed of hatred. And when they put posters of suicide bombers in elementry school rooms, they're trying to tell the kid's "these were good men", INDIRECTLY inciting hatred once again. It doesnt have to be direct as the University guy says it isnt. THat doesnt mean, however, that no hatred is meant to come of it.
Your argument (the mirror of US and Israeli ones) is that the Palestinian Authority must reform itself into an institution that takes responsibility for its actions and can thus become a responisible government.

Yup, that's basically my argument. First off, I dont care about the iffs. Israel has some demands, and if you try to hold those demands below the Palestinians, your showing only a clear bias. This is why I consider the UN biased. I'm also disgusted that you'd believe Israel is trying to delay peace. They've given so many lives to attain it, as well as given so much energy. 99% of Israeli's want peace and want it now. Israel isnt trying to delay.

Also, do you think it matters whether or not Palestinians accept Israel as a legit country? Everybody knows they are. Its political strategy, almost bootlicking(asskissing), but on an international scale.

And finally, If you believe that only Israeli's can stop the Violence, then you inherently believe that Palestians can not be held accountable for the actions of their people. And if you believe that, then maybe you can answer me this question. If the current government cannot regulate the actions of their people, then how can Israel be guaranteed that a future palestinian state would stop all terrorism and active extremism? Thats just it!! THere is no guarantee without responsible leadership, and as I've pointed out, if you believe in that only Israel can stop terrorism, then you must also be aware that there is no guarantee of peace for the Isralies. Because the extremists will tell you "WE DONT WANT TO SEE ANY PIECE OF ISRAEL" the extremists, the people at the root of all this violence are your means of justifying Israeli submission.

Also, I'd like to reitterate one thing that Gil W said. Your being a little too nice to the Muslims of Brittain. You claim that media here is spoondfeeding us the "Wrong information" But I claim that your media, and Muslim presence is spoonfeeding you misguided and biased information. Europeans arent right about everything. Remember the time that UN guy claimed a massacre happened? And then they came in, found that 50 had died, and all were given the chance to surrender? what do you call that. something like 30 Israeli's died in that conflict if memory serves me right. Who's trying to hide the truth.




So I ask: What's so wrong with Israeli demands?
Israel has made it very clear that it cannot make peace with arafat. The world can flush that idea down the toilet. When they get a leader who will take responsibility and a strong stand, then I'm confident peace can be made. But until then, dont expect Israel to get in a more vulnerable position.

Originally posted by Captain Canada
1. Both are considered illegal internationally. (if you're judging the morality of the argument through a death count then you're looking at over 1,200 Palestinian dead against 200 Israeli in the past two years...)


More than 600 Israelis have been killed in the past 2 years.

I don't believe everything the Palestinians say. Nor do I agree everyting the Israelis say. I also distrust the media you are force-fed. I suppose the Israelis use maps that have no occupied terirotries or Palestine on them for geological reasons? But so what? Clearly both sides view the land as theirs.
I'm not "force-fed" the media, and there's no need for insulting statements like that. You missed my point. I agree with you on almost every point, I was just pointing out that Palestine, as well as Israel, uses blatant propoganda. I should apologize, however. Reading back through the posts, I can't find the remark to which that was referring, it was probably misdirected. But you have to admit that both sides use propoganda and both sides promote hatred, at least to some degree.


Very similar resolutions ask Israel to withdraw. No one even bothers with sanctions.
Why should Israel withdraw from it's own borders? I believe you view Israel as an invader into Palestinian territory. But, as I mentioned before, the land technically belongs to the Israelis if you go back far enough in history, so the argument is moot. Both sides want each other dead, I think they should kick everyone out of the land and give it to me, so I can build the world's largest parking lot.

What about the both sides???

Uhh...

And your "fable" is not suitable enough for the real situation here, in my bleeding HOME.[B]

Your HOME? No. You were born there, yes. But your grandparents were not. Your great-grandparents, your great-great-grandparents, your great-great-great-grandparents, your great-great-great-great-grandparents, your great-great-great-great-great-grandparents, your great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents, your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents, nor your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents lived there (or at least that is true with most of the Israeli population, not nessecarily you.) Maybe your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents and their families grew up there (or at least a portion of them), but that's too long ago to claim it as your own. Should Germany let the Celts rule? Or the US let the red indians rule? NO. Too long ago.

[B]Accept it or not, it's my HISTORIC home,[B]

What, because your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents and their families grew up there? Well, in that case, it's my land as well. Oh, and I get dibs on Tanzania as well, that's where my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents and their families grew up there. :rolleyes:

[B]and my neighbour just wants the fucking little GREEN land which left to us, the Jewish people.

No, wills from that long ago NO LONGER FUCKING COUNT. Neither do promises in books. Even if they're given by a divine providence. You don't get THAT land. You go get land somewhere ELSE if you insist on a Jewish homeland. Or, you are treated as immigrant families on Arab land.

And you know why?
Because it's GREEN, whilst his BIG homes full of anger, hate, racizm and natism.

Oh yes, I imagine so.

Well, I wonder why it's full of ANGER AND HATE. Maybe that's because YOU'RE TAKING THE SOIL FROM UNDER HIS FUCKING FEET. If he did that to you, you wouldn't be happy.

Also, RACISM isn't possible: you're of the same macrorace as him. SEMITES = Jews+Arabs. It's actually quite true. However, in the past most anti-semites have either been against Arabs and Jews or JUST Jews, leading people to believe this word means Jewish people. Not at fucking all. It means ARABS+JEWS+GE'EZ+BERBERS+etcetc.

Arafat and his leadership has been growing a new generation which full of ultimate hate to the Israelis, and- TO THEMSELVES!!

Hmm, I wonder why that might be? (not. isn't it FUCKING OBVIOUS?)

All their school books and the media are full of brain-washing content and evil materials, making little children and women to suicide themselves for killing other people, for nothing.

No, actually, it's their society in which they see their friend's parents' house bulldozed one month, their own the next, and their friend shot the next month. FUCKING DUH!

I don't need to give you info, sources and links on the net.
You know it very well.

Yes, you do. I don't know it very well.

So what's the problem?

Fuck. Didn't I just tell you?

Have u ever tried living like that?
Getting killed, loosing your friends, afraid to get out to streets just because you "took" a very little piece (about 1.5%)
of the Mid East land???

Have you ever tried living like a Palestinian? Getting killed, losing your friends, afraid to get out to streets just because somebody else took all of the land you live on?

Also, how much LAND it is compared to the rest of the Middle East doesn't matter. THEY ALREADY FUCKING LIVED THERE!

They can go back to Jordan or Cairo, if they want.

Contrary to popular belief, that doesn't work well. The variety of Arabic spoken by Egyptians is not mutually intelligible with that spoken by Palestinians. Also, Israeli troops won't let them leave, anyways. Levantine Arabic is no longer intelligible with Lebanese Arabic (although they were once the same language), but Levantine Arabic is spoken in Jordan. But, let's consider your next comment when we think about this...

Joran is worse than Israel. They know it.

Well, if that's so true, why should they move there?

The grass there is full of evil flowers (Not all the flowers, however)

You must follow the Sharon philosophy: "Palestinians=Arabs=Terrorists=Dead men"

Try to understand me a little, Tom.
U can respect my beliefs or don't. It's not the point!

Before I really knew much about international affairs, I was really for Israel (because of seeing about suicide bombers, etc). But when I looked below the surface, I saw what was really happening.

TNX for listening to me.

You're not fucking welcome.

"The grass is always greener on the other side ,
the neighbours got a new car that you wanna drive
and when time is running out you wanna stay alive

We all live under the same sky
we all will live we all will die
There is no wrong
Ther is no right
The circle only has one side"

(Side, Travis---my favorite Band :))

Hmm. Yeah, that makes sense.

I'm not "force-fed" the media,

I don't care where you live, you're force-fed media. Some manage to withstand that, but I highly doubt you are one of these people.
(I refrain from viewing media most of the time, and look at timelines with discriptions of each event rather than reading biased accounts of events)

and there's no need for insulting statements like that.

That's not really an insult. It's true for most people. It may be insulting to the media, but it shouldn't be insulting to consumers.

Why should Israel withdraw from it's own borders? I believe you view Israel as an invader into Palestinian territory. But, as I mentioned before, the land technically belongs to the Israelis if you go back far enough in history, so the argument is moot. Both sides want each other dead, I think they should kick everyone out of the land and give it to me, so I can build the world's largest parking lot.

If you go back far enough in history? You need not go back nearly as far to find that the USA should really be a confederation of Native American tribes with Anglos and other non-tribal peoples treated as 2nd-class citizens. If you don't live in the US, the same thing can be said about Canada, Mexico, the rest of North America, all of South America, Australia and New Zealand, as well as most of non-Italian western Europe (once occupied by Celts and even others before them) and most of India, most of North Africa, most of the Middle East, etc.

Now, let's see who got to Israel before the Jewish people came out of Egypt: the Caananites. If I remember correctly, these people have a majority in the genepools of Jewish Czechs, and somewhat less so in other Jewish Slavs. There is a fairly small 100% Caananite population today, however none have a language distict from Israel's. Nowadays, they make up the small portion of the population of the occupied territories not living in a settlement but being Jewish (and fully supporting Palestinian Arabs and blending for the most part with them, and as they are orthodox jews, their religious rules largely coincide with those of Muslims.

Palestine is at fault because the murder of innocents can never be an acceptable solution to a problem. Strangely enough, this is also the reason why Israel is equally at fault. There is no good-guy here. But there is a solution.

Although Palestine gets little support from the US, they are getting sympathy from the rest of the world. But as long as the suicide bombings continue, people arguing against Palestine are going to continue to have a point. So putting an end to that has to be the first move. I don't care that Israel is also at fault, Palestine is going to just have to prove they are the better and make the first move in this way.

Once that ends, the Palestinian government should make a formal complaint to the UN, EU, and even the US (why not?) for every single atrocity that Israel commits. Don't retaliate. Israel must also pull back to the originally agreed borders. That's what was agreed upon, and a commitment is a commitment, after all.

I'll try and briefly address each of you in turn.

Elbaz

1. Textbooks. A moot point really. You reckon they're distorted - I expect they are. So are Israeli textbooks. I don't really think that it's necessary to teach hate to either side - they're pretty well practised at it I'd say. As to a solution I think this is a sidetrack that we could go on about all day.

2. Also, do you think it matters whether or not Palestinians accept Israel as a legit country?

Well it did matter until they accepted it. Now Palestinians accept Israel's right to exist, but Israel (or rather Likud) no longer accepts the Palestinian's right to a state. Just more indication of the shifting standards. But since you don't trust Palestinians (and I don't trust either Israel or the Palestinians) this isn't really relevant.

3. And finally, If you believe that only Israeli's can stop the Violence, then you inherently believe that Palestians can not be held accountable for the actions of their people. And if you believe that, then maybe you can answer me this question. If the current government cannot regulate the actions of their people, then how can Israel be guaranteed that a future palestinian state would stop all terrorism and active extremism? Thats just it!!

Well I don't believe that Arafat or the Palestinians can control trrorism completely. I'm sure that the PA's ability to control these groups is affected by Israel's military action. I also think that Arafat has more influence than he has claimed, but Hamas and Islamic Jihad? His control and influence over them is tiny. It's also extremely difficult for him, politically, to crackdown and throe these people into Israeli prisons given the unpopularity he would generate amongst his people.

So no, he can't regulate all 'terrorism'. No, he can't guarantee Israel's security to the extent you'd like. But if we're going down this route do we hold Sharon responsible for the activities of Israeli terorists (admittedly limited, but they have caused deaths) and agressive settler activity? Is Bush responsible for the US murder rate? It's just an impossible standard you set to delay an agreement.

Evidence suggests that progress towards a Palestinian state will drastically reduce violence though. Tell me, how many suicide bombings were there from 1992-2000 when Palestinians believed peace was coming? How many deaths? How many terrorist attacks?

And how many illegal settlements were built? How many new hurdles placed in the way of a final settlement? How much 'on-the-ground' relaity creating did the Israelis engage in? The Palestinainds felt deceived. I think they were.

Arafat's words are not sending these suicide bombers into Israel - the anger at the occupation is. Ditch Arafat and the bombing will go on. Press them more and more and the bombings will go on. Leave the occupied territories and the bombing will end. It's in Israel's hands. To paraphrase Clinton's campaign slogan - IT'S THE OCCUPATION STUPID!


SpyFox_the_KMeson

But, as I mentioned before, the land technically belongs to the Israelis if you go back far enough in history, so the argument is moot.

The criteria for who the and belongs to is? The bible? Who was there first? What? It is clearly a preposterous position. We're all from Africa anyway, so who does that belong to?

Israel's right to exist was created by the UN. They also gave Palestine the right to exist (in what is now Israel). The Palestinians aren't even arguing for what the UN gave them - just the bit that was occupied in 1967. Technically, that land belongs to Jordan and Egypt - Israel has no legal claim whatsoever on this land and the UN has passed several resolutions calling for an immediate withdrawal.

Spoon-fed - No insult intended. Just an observation. You don't have to swallow it.

JustinSmith

The occupation must end first. Arafat can't control an angry people. There will be no solution while the occupation continues. Did we ask the French resistence to cease attacking Germans in WWII?

ANyway - check out the arguments of GB-GIL Trans-global. He pretty much seems to see things as they are.

Why doesn't Israel kill 10,000 palestinians for every Israeli killed? The palestinians are killing as many Israelis as they can. Why is Israel pulling its punches? It is clearly capable of killing all the palestinians in relatively short order... a nice bombing campaign comes to mind. If Israel hit back in the manner I have outlined, the palestians would fall into line in short order or cease to exist. In either case the problem would be solved. The palestians have had 30 years to act like humans, they have failed to do so. It is time to deal them out of humanity's great card game. It will be a shame to see them go.... but what purpose do they really serve anymore?

The criteria for who the and belongs to is? The bible? Who was there first? What? It is clearly a preposterous position. We're all from Africa anyway, so who does that belong to?
Yes, that's exactly my point. Everywhere I turn, someone always mentions about the Palestinians being there first. It doesn't matter who was there first, the argument is pointless. That's all I'm saying. I don't think that you personally said this, however. No point arguing, we agree! :)

srael's right to exist was created by the UN. They also gave Palestine the right to exist (in what is now Israel). The Palestinians aren't even arguing for what the UN gave them - just the bit that was occupied in 1967. Technically, that land belongs to Jordan and Egypt - Israel has no legal claim whatsoever on this land and the UN has passed several resolutions calling for an immediate withdrawal.
Sorry, it thought that you meant Israel should withdraw from *all* of Israel. Yes, I definitely agree that Israel needs to get the hell out of the Palestinian territories. I think people should stop arguing about what is right, or what land belongs to who, and just give each side the land that the UN designated for them.

I agree with your statement that if Israel ends to occupation first, the bombings will stop. It's impossible for the police force to watch every last person in the country, and either way, someone has got to make the first move towards peace. Of course, if Israel does pull out of Palestinean territories, and the bombings continue, and *then* nothing is done to stop it, then I think Israel has the right to protect its own people.

Originally posted by Gil_W
What about the both sides???

And your "fable" is not suitable enough for the real situation here, in my bleeding HOME.

Accept it or not, it's my HISTORIC home, and my neighbour just wants the fucking little GREEN land which left to us, the Jewish people.
Let me see; the Romans kicked out most Jews after the 70AD & Bar Kochba revolts, scattered them to the four winds, then 19 centuries later, they want the land back? Not many people could claim land after that length of time. And since my ancestors traveled all the way from Africa to N. America, can I claim all that as my ancestral land?

So what's the problem?

Have u ever tried living like that?
Getting killed, loosing your friends, afraid to get out to streets just because you "took" a very little piece (about 1.5%)
of the Mid East land???
That's the problem, 19 centuries later, you decide to take back the land, using a western European people (Jews) and techniques (conquest of the Western Hemisphere) as your example? Only problem was, the Palestinians did not die like the Indians did, they also had access to modern weapons and they are steeped in the war-like traditions of the Old World (unlike the Indians, who were a stone-age people, and usually fought by "counting coup" or "flower wars" to get honor, slaves &/or sacrificial victims), having fought Europeans since 632AD.

They can go back to Jordan or Cairo, if they want.
Joran is worse than Israel. [/B][/QUOTE]
I think muslims could say that of Jews, go back to all the European & western countries you came from, yes or no?

Originally posted by Gil_W
What about the both sides???

And your "fable" is not suitable enough for the real situation here, in my bleeding HOME.

Accept it or not, it's my HISTORIC home, and my neighbour just wants the fucking little GREEN land which left to us, the Jewish people.
Let me see; the Romans kicked out most Jews after the 70AD & Bar Kochba revolts, scattered them to the four winds, then 19 centuries later, they want the land back? Not many people could claim land after that length of time. And since my ancestors traveled all the way from Africa to N. America, can I claim all that as my ancestral land?

So what's the problem?

Have u ever tried living like that?
Getting killed, loosing your friends, afraid to get out to streets just because you "took" a very little piece (about 1.5%)
of the Mid East land???
That's the problem, 19 centuries later, you decide to take back the land, using a western European people (Jews) and techniques (conquest of the Western Hemisphere) as your example? Only problem was, the Palestinians did not die like the Indians did, they also had access to modern weapons and they are steeped in the war-like traditions of the Old World, having fought Europeans since 632AD. Unlike the Indians, who were a stone-age people up until then, and usually fought by "counting coup" or "flower wars"; to get honor, slaves &/or sacrificial victims. The bow and arrow was a recent innovation that had made it to them, and they used it well against their enemies.

Also, muslims claim that all of dar al-islam(the land of Islam), is to be defended, and since Israel is an intruder to them, and so part of dar al-harb(the land of war), they have to fight them.

They can go back to Jordan or Cairo, if they want.
Joran is worse than Israel.
I think muslims could say that of Jews, go back to all the European & western countries you came from, yes or no? Anyway, many Israelis have come to the US to live, I met a few in L.A.

Originally posted by Gil_W


More than 600 Israelis have been killed in the past 2 years.

How many of these died "willingly"? (=army deaths, non-civilian deaths etc)