The whole "Is Islam a violent religion?" debate has been beaten to death, so I'll start off with the second most common criticism of Islam.

Women in Muslim nations are forced to cover most of their bodies, and very often their faces with a veil. This is one of the most oppressive restrictions on women that has ever been, and Islam commands it! It is even hazardous to womens' health- a lack of sunlight reaching the body can cause a Vitamin D deficancy. My views on this subject are perfectly summaried in the following political cartoons (there are several pages to these): http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/TelnaesTaliban/main.asp

Oh, and don't give me one of those bullsh#t responses like "women in muslim nations like having all of their rights taken away from them and being covered head and toe." It's a load of bs and we all know it.

Most Muslim countries in the world are also resititing change by not accepting modern technology. Most Muslim nations are in the Third World category because modernizing is against Islam.

There are a few other reasons that I find Islam to be a bad influence on the world, and I might list them later.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm a liberal and absolutely despise those Jerry Farewells who attack other religions because of their own personal agendas, but there are problems with this religion and its social aplications. If you are Muslims don't think I'm attacking just you. I attack right wing Christians as well.

kill the thread

Spook, what are you talking about? Please, I want to have a real discussion on this, even if there are several discussions out there that are similar to this one. Don't flame or troll my thread.

Thanx.

Well, thier beliefs seem to keep them in order. They only attack immoral people (except when they attack other Muslims- I dont get this). I think that they have distorted thier text to amazing lengths, but it is their religion. Leave them alone.

I do wholeheartedly agree that it is wrong to make women different from men, but its tradition dude. Americans wont change the dollar bill to plastic because of tradition. If Muslims changed their beliefs, there would be mass riots from the followers of Islam. Only in time will they change.

The Islamic culture itslef is very oppressive. I mean, look at it like this. If you live in an Islamic country and don't conform to their way of life, you get...smitten. It's human nature to want to be accepted (well, most of uf, myself not included). So they abondon their freedom only so that they can be loved and respected. More than once has such behaviour led to extremism (Taliban, and lets not forget that other situation where Iran went from a modern and cosmopolitan country and directly into the twighlight zone.)

I don't know if I can fully blame the religion since it's more of a cultural thing. But theres alot of bigotry and...

Damnit. Parents need the phone. I look forward to broadband. :cool:

BRB

[QUOTE]Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
The whole "Is Islam a violent religion?" debate has been beaten to death, so I'll start off with the second most common criticism of Islam.

Women in Muslim nations are forced to cover most of their bodies

====================================

NAME ME ONE AMERICAN PRESIDENT WHO HAPPEN TO BE WOMAN??????????????????????????????????

IN INDONESIA, THE LARGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY, THE PRESIDENT IS MUSLIM WOMAN: PRESIDENT MEGAWATI.


Liberation by the Veil :

Modesty and chastity , very important ideologies with Islam, are achieved by prescribing standards on behavior and the dress of a Muslim. A woman who adheres to the tenements of Islam is required to follow the dress code called Hijab, other synonymes are Veil, Purdah, or just Covering. It is an act of faith and establishes a Muslim's life with honor, respect and dignity. The Hijab is viewed as a liberation for women, in that the covering brings about "an aura of respect" (Takim, 22) and women are recognized as individuals who are admired for their mind and personality, "not for their beauty or lack of it" ( Mustafa ) and not as sex objects.
Contrary to popular belief, the covering of the Muslim woman is not oppression but a liberation from the shackles of male scrutiny and the standards of attractiveness . In Islam, a woman is free to be who she is inside, and immuned from being portrayed as sex symbol and lusted after. Islam exalts the status of a woman by commanding that she "enjoys equal rights to those of man in everything, she stands on an equal footing with man " (Nadvi, 11) and both share mutual rights and obligations in all aspects of life.

Men and women though equal are not identical, and each compliments the other in the different roles and functions that they are responsible to. " From an Islamic perspective, to view a woman as a sex symbol is to denigrate her. Islam believes that a woman is to be judged by her [virtuous] character and actions rather than by her looks or physical features" (Takim, 22). In the article, "My Body Is My Own Business", Ms. Naheed Mustafa , a young Canadian born and raised, university-educated Muslim woman writes, "The Quran [ which is the Holy Book for Muslims] teaches us that men and women are equal, that individuals should not be judged according to gender, beauty, wealth or privilege. The only thing that makes one person better than another is his or her character." She goes on to say, "In the Western world, the hijab has come to symbolize either forced silence or radical, unconscionable militancy. Actually, its neither. It is simply a woman's assertion that judgement of her physical person is to play no role whatsoever in social interaction."

Muslims believe that God gave beauty to all women, but that her beauty is not be seen by the world, as if the women are meat on the shelf to be picked and looked over. When she covers herself she puts herself on a higher level and men will look at her with respect and she is noticed for her intellect , faith ,and personality, not for her beauty. In many societies, especially in the West, women are taught from early childhood that their worth is proportional to their attractiveness and are compelled to follow the male standards of beauty and abstract notions of what is attractive, half realizing that such pursuit is futile and often humiliating (Mustafa).

Chastity , modesty, and piety are promoted by the institution of veiling. "The hijab in no way prevents a woman from playing her role as an important individual in a society nor does it make her inferior." (Takim,22)

A Muslim woman may wear whatever she pleases in the presence of her husband and family or among women friends. But when she goes out or when men other than her husband or close family are present she is expected to wear a dress which will cover [her hair and] all parts of her body , and not reveal her figure. What a contrast with Western fashions which every year concentrate quite intentionally on exposing yet another erogenous zone to the public gaze! The intention of Western dress is to reveal the figure, while the intention of Muslim dress is to conceal [and cover] it, at least in public (Lemu,25).

The Muslim woman does not feel the pressures to be beautiful or attractive, which is so apparent in the Western and Eastern cultures. She does not have to live up to expectations of what is desirable and what is not. Superficial beauty is not the Muslim woman's concern, her main goal is inner spiritual beauty. She does not have to use her body and charms to get recognition or acceptance in society. It is very different from the cruel methods that other societies subject women, in that their worth is always judged by their physical appearance. The are numerous examples of discrimination at the workplace where women are either accepted or rejected, because of their attractiveness and sex appeal.

Another benefit of adorning the veil is that it is a protection for women. Muslims believe that when women display their beauty to everybody, they degrade themselves by becoming objects of sexual desire and become vulnerable to men, who look at them as " gratification for the sexual urge"(Nadvi,8). The Hijab makes them out as women belonging to the class of modest chaste women, so that transgressors and sensual men may recognize them as such and dare not tease them out of mischief" (Nadvi, 20). Hijab solves the problem of sexual harrassment and unwanted sexual advances, which is so demeaning for women, when men get mixed signals and believe that women want their advances by the way they reveal their bodies.

The western idiology of, 'if you have it, you should flash it!' is quite opposite to the Islamic principle,where the purpose is not to bring attention to ones self, but to be modest. Women in so many societies are just treated as sex symbols and nothing more than just a body who "display themselves to get attention" (Mustafa) . A good example is in advertising, where a woman's body is used to sell products. Women are constantly degraded, and subjected to reveal more and more of themselves. .

The Covering sanctifies her and forces society to hold her in high esteem. Far from humiliating the woman, Hijab actually grants the woman an aura of respect, and bestows upon her a separate and unique identity (Takim, 22). According to the Qu'ran, the same high standards of moral conduct are for men as it is for women. Modesty is essential in a man's life, as well, whether it be in action, morals or speech. Islam also commands proper behavior and dress of men, in that they are not allowed to make a wanton show of their bodies to attract attention onto themselves, and they too must dress modestly. They have a special commandment to lower their eyes, and not to brazenly stare at women.

In Sura Nur of the Holy Qu'ran it says, " Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them, and God is well acquainted with what they do". Many of the misconceptions of the Muslim woman in the west, particularly her veil stems from Arab and Muslim countries that have deviated from the true doctrines of Islam, and have " mixed up Islamic principles with pre-Islamic pagan traditions" (Bahnassawi, 67)

In this present period of decline from Islam, many Muslim women are alienated , isolated from social life, and are oppressed by Muslim men and rulers who use the name of religion for their injustices. (Bahnassawi, 65) In this instance, the Hijab is used as a means of keeping many Muslim women away from society, with the misconception that it signifies isolation and weakness. But as many Muslim women come back into the fold of the untainted and true Islam, they are able to recognize the injustice of men who have for so long stripped them of their rights to be an integral part of society and "deserving the same dignity, honor, progress and prosperity as the men" (Nadvi,26). Women regaining their true identity and role in society, are now wearing Hijab and embracing its concept of liberation for women, and are taking their rightful places that Islam had endowed upon them fourteen hundred years ago.

that was pure horseshit...

as blackstone stated in another thread..
just imagine women takin off their veils in saudi arabia... what would happen?
also, when you live in a muslim country, you have to abide by the laws of ramadan.. some places its severe... here u can't eat or smoke outside durin ramadan in the day time... why do non muslims have to conform to that? cuz they are livin in a muslim country? imposition of practises on ppl who dont believe in them... that's not cool...

women are oppressed in muslim countries and its a fact... you can't get around that by quotin some surahs for me...

Women are abused in Muslim countries. Since when were they given an ounce of respect, green? Give me a break. No matter what your prophet M says, it is a fact that women are abused. In one news story covered by TIME (forgot which issue, find it yourself) a woman was raped by a Muslim holy man and then was stoned to death for "adultery". In another, a woman had sulphuric acid thrown on her face by a sheikh for putting on a touch of makeup. Think over the fact that your post is completely indefensible. Right, they're given a heck of a lot of liberation.

On the other hand, you don't find anything nearly as horrifying in Xtian or Hindu countries. Find some hard facts and stats to back yourself up.

Originally posted by sycoindian
that was pure horseshit...

Exactly. I specifically asked for no "women like to be veiled" crap, but there are 11 paragraphs of it in Green World's post, and he probably just copied and pasted it from some website. I could have created a better arguement for vieling myself, even though I am totally against it. He didn't address my point that veiling causes vitamin D deficianies, or that the veil is a form of bondage just like chains.

The veil is just another form of men "marking their territory."

And Green, you did not reply to the other post I asked you to respond to. More and more women are getting closer to the Presidency here in the United States, and have already succeeded in other western nations. Women who acheive leadership status in Muslim nations do so only because Islam is not a major force in the nations they live in.

"Women are liberated by the veil." Pure horseshit. It's just a way of telling women that they are not good enough to be seen, according to your views. Why aren't men forced to cover themselves in Islam?

this thread should not be killed. if people can have problems with the christian religion and be able to beef about them, then, a thread about the beefs against Islam as well as any other corny religion out there has just as much right to be heard. islam is a whacked-out religion. yes, that's right...that is MY opinion.

check this out...

http://www.hambastegi.org/selectedarticles/editor121.htm

As I was going to say, theres alot of bigotry in the religion of Islam. It was written around the beliefs of some polygamist and pedophile 1500 years ago. I'll use an example from my own religion, Judaism, to demostrate just how dumb people can be when trying to understand God and his teachings (by misinterpreting them completely and making of fool the supreme high commander)

Some Babylonian Talmudic scholars argued that if a gentile steals a horse from a Jew, he should be killed, where as a Jew should be aloud to steal a horse from a gentile with minimal punishments. Consequently, many of these scholars where corrupt and gave Judaism a bad name. Though, they still managed to pump out some peaceful and enlightening religious tidbits. Needless to say I take most talmud with a grain of salt. Anything written by man is probably biased...An entire religion based on the teachings of man (mohammed) is pure bigotry.

Which brings me to Islam. Mohammed was a man. Believe it or not he was a man like anyone else and probably less richeous than the next polygamist. He was a man and his teachings were corrupt. Even the smallest technicalities and forms of bigotry were magnified throughout the ages into the true Islamic religion and culture we see today. 1500 years ago, men got their sex through rape, and such is still the case in almost all Islamic nations. Women don't have a choice. They're treated like dogs.

Liberation by the Veil :
liberation from the shackles of male scrutiny and the standards of attractiveness

Same shit, different pile. You argue that all women should want to wear a veil. But what about those that dont? What happens to them? In most cases, your religious leader will instruct the woman to be gang raped and then married off to some feg against there will. Your explanations look all pretty on the outside, but I think your hiding some dirty scripture from us. Women are not treated equally in almost any Muslim nation. They're treated like dogs, and I've seen cases were men value their dogs more than their wives.

Another thing, "male scrutiny and the standards of attractiveness", I have a real problem with this one. You're basically telling me that Muslim women are so weak and submissive that they should be prone to scrutiny based on the prettiness of their faces. So 'women are equal to themselves but a man is always better.'

Finally, arguing that hiding yourself is the best way to freedom is about the stupidest thing you could say. Lets define freedom:

According to dictionary.com
free·dom ( P ) Pronunciation Key (frdm)
The condition of being free of restraints.

If a veil restrains you from letting your face hang out naturally, then how can it be classified as freedom?

Another case of male superiority IMO,,,
Replace your argument with this one concise statement:
"Since men are superior to women, than women are only restrained by the shackle that is male judgement. Thus, the only freedom lies at the liberation from their standards and dealings."

That about sums it up.


-Elbaz

Originally posted by Elbaz
As I was going to say, theres alot of bigotry in the religion of Islam. It was written around the beliefs of some polygamist and pedophile 1500 years ago.
-Elbaz

I have to agree. Like I said earlier, I'm a liberal who can't stand people who bash Islam just to promote their own religion (usually Christianity), but Islam does have its problems. Why couldn't Allah have choosen a more pure man to be his prophet?

By the way, I am a Christian, albeit a liberal and what I consider "reasonable" one. I'm just pointing this out to avoid bais, like how NBC does a story on General Electric and then notes that GE is the parent company of NBC.

Originally posted by Blackstone
well put bro...Im so sick of this "women like viel" , and "viel is for women's good" bullshit.

Agreed. The only reason they don't throw them off is because they are so damn brainwashed by all the Koran shit, plus being beaten if they do.

Just go to the political cartoons link in my first post. It explains all of this.

Originally posted by Elbaz
The Islamic culture itslef is very oppressive.

(Taliban, and lets not forget that other situation where Iran went from a modern and cosmopolitan country and directly into the twighlight zone.)

I don't know if I can fully blame the religion since it's more of a cultural thing. But theres alot of bigotry and...


Their culture has several aspects to it, that have ‘nothing’ & ‘everything’ to do with their religion;
1) art (persian miniatures, calligraphy)
2) literature (poems, stories like 1001 Nights)
3) architecture (Alhambra & Taj Mahal for example)
4) government (several empires; arabic, turkish, mogol, mogul)
5) science (cataloged & expanded Greek & ancient knowledge)
6) philosophy (of those they came upon)
7) music (I'm listening to flamenco right now)
8) war (used techniques to conquer half their world)
9) technology (whatever they got, they used)
10) language (in most european languages, that they came in contact with, (Spanish the most)).

No, it's not perfect, but neither is any other human system. It may have aspects of it that tend to visions of grandeur, wanting back it's 'golden age', when it ruled & lead the world. And if my understanding of the Q’ran is correct, the plan is jihad until all the world is ruled by muslims for the Islamic community (umma), all other Dhimmi (thats christians & jews) then under their control. That is when lessor jihad ends. Get ready for the future!

You don’t have to like islam or muslims, to admire its accomplishments. It will leave a legacy to humanity, even if it disappeared tomorrow. While in “Pitch Black”, it was looked as surviving our move to the stars, I do not feel that it will, until there is a change in muslims concept of the future of humanity & islam's (& others’) place in it. Muslims in the West & the Middle East must choose what type of islam will survive in the future. Whether its jihad until the end of time or peace (salaam) for us all? And I don't mean by submission (islam) to Islam!

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/glossary.html#C

Salaam y'all

That cartoon makes a good point, Blackstone, but here is an entire group of them:
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/TelnaesTaliban/main.asp

Just seeing those cartoons make me appriciate freedom more and more. Islam... yuck!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zero
[B]Women are abused in Muslim countries. Since when were they given an ounce of respect, green? Give me a break. No matter what your prophet M says, it is a fact that women are abused. In one news story covered by TIME (forgot which issue, find it yourself) a woman was raped by a Muslim holy man and then was stoned to death for "adultery". In another, a woman had sulphuric acid thrown on her face by a sheikh for putting on a touch of makeup. Think over the fact that your post is completely indefensible. Right, they're given a heck of a lot of liberation.

On the other hand, you don't find anything nearly as horrifying in Xtian or Hindu countries. Find some hard facts and stats to back yourself up.

======================================

You are so misinformed about the Muslim countries, there are 54 MUSLIM country, to assume that women are oppressed in all these countries is ABSURD.

I asked a question and it seems everyone in embarresed to give an answer to, name me one American president who happen to be woman?

You told ABSURDLY that you can't find abuse of christian women in christian or hindu countries !! REALLY MR.HINDU ??

DID YOU FORGET THE HINDU HABBIT OF BURNING THE WIFE OF THE DEAD HUSBAND ALIVE AFTER HIS DEATH ??

In the 'civilized' world, women are ABUSED daily, the problem of DOMESTIC VIOLENCE reached alarming rates, in the U.K for example every 4 days a woman dies as a result of domestic violence, in Russia every 4 minute a woman dies as a result of domestic violence.

go and check the reports by AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL to see the scale of woman abuse in your CHRISTIAN or Hindu cow worshipping country.

Even in the US, the women abuse reached new lows, here you have the OFFICAL site of the division of criminal justice services, they are urging the people to STOP violence against women:

http://www.wvdcjs.com/justiceprograms/violencewomen.html

[QUOTE]Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
Exactly. I specifically asked for no "women like to be veiled" crap, but there are 11 paragraphs of it in Green World's post, and he probably just copied and pasted it from some website. I could have created a better arguement for vieling myself, even though I am totally against it. He didn't address my point that veiling causes vitamin D deficianies, or that the veil is a form of bondage just like chains.

The veil is just another form of men "marking their territory."

And Green, you did not reply to the other post I asked you to respond to. More and more women are getting closer to the Presidency here in the United States, and have already succeeded in other western nations. Women who acheive leadership status in Muslim nations do so only because Islam is not a major force in the nations they live in.
==================================

BULLSHITE, women in the USA are abused daily, check my other response for your question.

We has MUSLIM prime ministers and Presidents for nearly 30 years, until now, 2003 and you dont have A SINGLE US PRESIDENT OR EVEN A VICE-PRESIDENT WHO IS WOMAN !!

For more INFORMATION about the abuse of women in the west visit this WONDERFUL LINK:

http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/w_violence.htm

Green, can you give me an objective news article supporting your position? One with no propaganda?

You are avoiding the issue of veiling.

After I'm done arguing for all of my posts I'm retiring for real.

Interesting to note that one of the first ways that a population is enslaved is to destroy and control them sexually.

A woman's power is traditionally rooted in her command of her body. Take this from her and she is most easily manipulated, unless she is extrordinarily strong.

Islam first destroyed its women mentally by subjecting them a barrage of lies about the existence of God and the benefits of submission. To destroy her completely, it took away her most basic right of dominion over her body.

*A sneer begins to form on Xev's lip and she spits out only one word, albeit quite sufficiant*

Vile.

You've bred a religion of violent slaves and the world is reaping the consequences, like dragon's teeth grown into warriors. You've taken something precious and holy like the surrender of power in the sexual relation and twisted it into something ugly. You've destroyed the humanity of millions with this absurd religion, and you shall no longer succeed.

Finally, someone agrees with me. :)

Oh my god, are you saying someone agrees with me?

*Faints*

No, me.

What do three million battered women do wrong every year?

They don't fucking listen!

Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
Green is still avoiding me. He sent me a PM with some bullshit website, but he's avoiding public debate with original thought so he is avoiding the issue.

I am NOT avoding public debate, I have every day around 50-60 E-mails from around the world from people who are interested in islam, I have to reply to them as well.

At least replying to them is more useful than replying to you because you are doomed, there is no gain from debating you, I am warning you from fearful doom.

but CERTIANLY I am not avoiding you, why you dont go and respond to my thread about the SHOCKING facts regard the western treatment of women ??? LOSER .

Doomed? What makes your claims any more credible than all the other little fundies I've met from other religions. What is this, five?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
[B]Doomed? What makes your claims any more credible than all the other little fundies I've met from other religions. What is this, five?

If you dont believe in God ALmighty, you are doomed.

The Holy Quran: 57. Al-Hadîd

In the Name of Allâh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
1.
Whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Allâh, and He is the All-Mighty, All-Wise.
2.
His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, It is He Who gives life and causes death; and He is Able to do all things.
3.
He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him). And He is the All-Knower of every thing.
4.
He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then Istawâ (rose over) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be. And Allâh is the All-Seer of what you do.
5.
His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. And to Allâh return all the matters (for decision).
6.
He merges night into day (i.e. the decrease in the hours of the night is added into the hours of the day), and merges day into night (i.e. the decrease in the hours of the day is added into the hours of the night), and He has full knowledge of whatsoever is in the breasts.
7.
Believe in Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and spend of that whereof He has made you trustees. And such of you as believe and spend (in Allâh's Way), theirs will be a great reward.
8.
And what is the matter with you that you believe not in Allâh! While the Messenger (Muhammad ) invites you to believe in your Lord (Allâh), and He (Allâh) has indeed taken your covenant, if you are real believers.
9.
It is He Who sends down manifest Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) to His slave (Muhammad SAW) that He may bring you out from darkness into light. And verily, Allâh is to you full of kindness, Most Merciful.

http://www.quran.org/

http://www.al-sunnah.com/quran.htm

http://www.theholybook.org/

Isn't God the God of the infidel Jews and Christians which you are ordered to kill by the Koran. Perhaps you should have said Allah.

Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
Isn't God the God of the infidel Jews and Christians which you are ordered to kill by the Koran. Perhaps you should have said Allah.


Allah is the arabic word of God.

you see, everyday I discover how ignorant you are about islam.

now, I have a question for you, if Islam is that bad, why are so many people converting to this great religion ???????

[QUOTE]Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
[B]Green, can you give me an objective news article supporting your position? One with no propaganda?

You are avoiding the issue of veiling.

After I'm done arguing for all of my posts I'm retiring for real.


I am not avoiding any issue, you are avoiding discussing the FACTS and the FIGURES in my thread about the western abuse of women, the figures in my thread are NOT from Islamic resources, they are from WESTERN resources and I supplied you with these resources to check by yourself.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
[B]Good point. Maybe he is not. He is from the Muslim world were people are not allowed to be educated because of religious reasons.


REALLY ??? WHEN MUSLIMS IN SPAIN WERE BUILDING THE MOST ADVANCED CIVILIZATION IN EUROPE, YOU WERE STILL LIVING ON THE TREES.

I have MASTER degree in Economics from MUSLIM university which are recognized by most of the WESTERN universities, I traveled and l lived for a while in your 'civilized' west, something gave me MORE ammunition to counter the lies against Islam.

I have seen how you guys live, how you go out on friday and saturday nights, how you behave in your pubs and in your clubs..

I learnt a lot about your sick societies.

THE FUTURE IS FOR US NOT FOR YOU.

Why don't you use Allah when you mean your god and God when you mean the god of the Jews and Christians. You can't even get that right.

People are joining your faith because they can't accept the fact that they might just be wormfood when they die. PS, I'd rather be wormfood than with a moster like Allah who would force women to seclude themselves through veiling.

Reply, I've got to get some sleep. I've been to one strip club in my life and that's it. Am I one of the people who visits the "clubs and pubs?"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
[B]Why don't you use Allah when you mean your god and God when you mean the god of the Jews and Christians. You can't even get that right.

People are joining your faith because they can't accept the fact that they might just be wormfood when they die. PS, I'd rather be wormfood than with a moster like Allah who would force women to seclude themselves through veiling.
========================================

The GOD of the jews and the christians is the SAME god of Islam, got it MR. IGNORANT ?

ISLAM is the ONLY religion on earth that RESPECT and GLORIFY JESUS and MOSES the prophets of christianity and judaism.

Your answer about why people converting to islam SUCKS.

You chose to be left out, fine....just wait for the day when you will be displayed in front of the almighty.

God of Christinity = Trinity = the father, son, and holy spirit

Allah= one being= one giant lie

I consider myself Christian, so am I muslim?:confused:

You are avoidng my statement after the wormfood explanation, about how I would not want to be with a sexist deity like that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
[B]God of Christinity = Trinity = the father, son, and holy spirit

Allah= one being= one giant lie

I consider myself Christian, so am I muslim?:confused:
===============================

NO, you got it wrong, the God of christianity is NOT trinity, I can prove that to you from your own FALSE ABSURD bible.

Anyone who submit his will to GOD is MUSLIM.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
[B]You are avoidng my statement after the wormfood explanation, about how I would not want to be with a sexist deity like that.
==============================

Could you explain it more and could you please refrain from insulting my faith ?????

Your Allah orders women to lower themselves to dirt by wearing veils and keeping away from society whenever possible. Sorry, but it is true. I don't think Allah exists. He is just a creation of Mohammad, a pedophile. Sorry, but it is true, even if it is attacking your faith.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
[B]Your Allah orders women to lower themselves to dirt by wearing veils and keeping away from society whenever possible. Sorry, but it is true. I don't think Allah exists. He is just a creation of Mohammad, a pedophile. Sorry, but it is true, even if it is attacking your faith.
====================================

I explained in my reply why muslim woman have to conver her head ONLY not all her face.

Now, let us look at your FAITH and how it treats women:

Men can shave the women's heads if women don't cover their heads:

1 Corinthians 11:5-10: "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."

1 Corinthians 11:13: "Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God (with her head) uncovered?"

---ISLAM is the ONLY religion on earth that RESPECT and GLORIFY JESUS and MOSES the prophets of christianity and judaism. ----

Again.. you're wrong.. the Bahai' Faith recognizes all of them too..

<font color="red">From moderator: Please keep it civil, people. I realise you can't agree on each other's religions, and you're welcome to discuss those issues. However, derogatory comments intended only to inflame add nothing to the discussion.</font>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sycoindian
--ISLAM is the ONLY religion on earth that RESPECT and GLORIFY JESUS and MOSES the prophets of christianity and judaism. ----

Again.. you're wrong.. the Bahai' Faith recognizes all of them too..
===========================

Bahai' is NOT faith, it is corrupted sect of Islam.

Originally posted by Green_World
[QUOTE]Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
[B]Why don't you use Allah when you mean your god and God when you mean the god of the Jews and Christians. You can't even get that right.

People are joining your faith because they can't accept the fact that they might just be wormfood when they die. PS, I'd rather be wormfood than with a moster like Allah who would force women to seclude themselves through veiling.
========================================

The GOD of the jews and the christians is the SAME god of Islam, got it MR. IGNORANT ?

ISLAM is the ONLY religion on earth that RESPECT and GLORIFY JESUS and MOSES the prophets of christianity and judaism.

Your answer about why people converting to islam SUCKS.

You chose to be left out, fine....just wait for the day when you will be displayed in front of the almighty. Allah is not the same, its a moon god that Mohammet used to convert arabs to monotheism, check out the cresent moon among early Middle Eastern religions.
There is no respect if you change Moses & Jesus to become muslims when the would have been hard-pressed in their earthly lifetimes to believe anything Mohammet said about them , their mission or their religious beliefs. I could write that Mohammet believed in & died as a Christian & but that his followers corrupted islam back then, & since Mohammet is long dead, how can you prove I am wrong? Muslims did that to Moses & Jesus, copying sayings without understanding the menaing or if they were just sayings (targums).
http://www.occultopedia.com/t/targums.htm

---Bahai' is NOT faith, it is corrupted sect of Islam---]

prove it

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Randolfo
Allah is not the same, its a moon god that Mohammet used to convert arabs to monotheism, check out the cresent moon among early Middle Eastern religions.
There is no respect if you change Moses & Jesus to become muslims when the would have been hard-pressed in their earthly lifetimes to believe anything Mohammet said about them , their mission or their religious beliefs. I could write that Mohammet believed in & died as a Christian & but that his followers corrupted islam back then, & since Mohammet is long dead, how can you prove I am wrong? Muslims did that to Moses & Jesus, copying sayings without understanding the menaing or if they were just sayings (targums
=================================

BLAH.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sycoindian
Bahai' is NOT faith, it is corrupted sect of Islam---]

prove it

=========================
Baha'is believe in the Oneness of God. This leads them to believe in the Oneness of Religion, the "changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future." In this sense, the Baha'i Faith is related to all past religions. Its roots however, are in the religion which immediately preceded it, Islam.

Even the word BAHAI is MUSLIM name.

No one (except for James) is debunking what I said, but we all realize that Green is wrong. Covering heads, covering faces, what's the difference? Women are oppressed either way. What is the point to women covering their hair? There is none, except to demonstrate their lowly position in muslim societies.

Yes,I have had a share of Problems dealing with Violence Involved with Islamists.

As far as Women's rights issue is concerned...Let me give you an example to illustrate correctness of this Thread.

We(I and my couple of Friends) once went to Dubai as there was a Shopping Carnival and Dad had some work there.One of my friends(a girl) was asked(within the Flight) to cover her face with Burkha before she reaches Dubai,this was also directed to other Women on the Aircraft.Some women when resisted were warned of Cancellation of Visa permanently...


think about it.


bye!

And becoming a president Means Freedom of Rights fro Women?


sorry...
I dont blame ISLAM as a religion for this.But i blame some stupid people who interpret their Relegion Quite Strongly...you know what i mean.there's nothing wrong with the relegion.It never says Kill innocent people...But as POPE SAYS:

<I>"LET THE GRACELESS ZEALOTS FIGHT"</I>



BYE!

Originally posted by zion
Yes,I have had a share of Problems dealing with Violence Involved with Islamists.

As far as Women's rights issue is concerned...Let me give you an example to illustrate correctness of this Thread.

We(I and my couple of Friends) once went to Dubai as there was a Shopping Carnival and Dad had some work there.One of my friends(a girl) was asked(within the Flight) to cover her face with Burkha before she reaches Dubai,this was also directed to other Women on the Aircraft.Some women when resisted were warned of Cancellation of Visa permanently...


think about it.


bye!

That is BS, I have traveled to Dubai 3 times with my wife and no one asked us her to cover anything and it was even before we were converted to islam. If you have been to dubai you wouldn't talk like that. City with night clubs, bars dance clubs never asked any women to cover their faces. I have been there 3 times and I can tell for sure that you are lying here. So please avoid lies and disinformation about things you don't know. I don't understand what is the purpose of disinformation and spread lies?.

Just making them cover their hair disgusts me.:mad:

Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
Just making them cover their hair disgusts me.:mad: Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
Just making them cover their hair disgusts me.:mad:

"Making them" yes it is the key word. Who is making them? An individual or a religion ? You have shown your anger and hate or what ever emotions or feelings you have for islam, but you cannot blame it on religion. I hate to say that, there is not a single Islamic country in this world right now, which follows the islamic rules. They all suck. All the countries are curroupted do the horrible extends. They are all using Islam as a tool to control the masses. A shield to hide behind, they use it as their last resort to justify the wrong doings. Is it the religion? or the people. It is the illiteracy, clutures, lack of knowledge of their own faith and ignorance.

I have never asked my wife to cover her head. She does it anyways. USA is a free country, why many muslim women cover their heads? I am sure no one forced them to. Atleast no one that I know of. Why do they cover it then? where is the oppression. Why is it when a muslims women covers her head it is oppression but when a NUN covers her head it is for religion? what kind of bullshit is it?

Sorry, it seems like, you and some others thinks that Saudi Arabia is a muslim country. According to Islam and Quran it is not even close to a muslim country. Does it help?. None of them are following Quranic teachings or the laws. They hand picked what they wanted to follow and left the rest aside. Just like any other religion.

Women in Muslim countries will be made outcasts if they do not cover, nuns do it out of free will.

Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
Women in Muslim countries will be made outcasts if they do not cover, nuns do it out of free will.

Did you miss my post? or are you a handicap? There is probably only one country where they make women wear veil "saudi", I don't recall it as a law any where else.

Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
Women in Muslim countries will be made outcasts if they do not cover, nuns do it out of free will.

Said by you. Yes offcourse.:o Only you can come up with ideas like that.

Who the hell do all of you think you are. My problems with Islam indeed, don't flatter yourself. How are these your problems, is it because your wife sister girlfriend mother daughter has taken up the veil. If it doesn't affect you then don't dare to condescend another human who is obviously more learned then you on this subject just because (almighty) you think it is not a good idea. I am tired of people taking a few extreme examples and forming generic conclusion based on the newsworthy. I ask you why do you want to see these women remove their veils? I dare say it is the same reason as why they want to keep it on. If you didn't understand before then let me explain it to you in western terms wearing a veil is much like pretty girls going out to Gay night clubs. You may hear women previously muslim who have forsaken islam condem the practice and this will be brought to you via the media ,word of mouth etc because it has more interest value than the opposite. But remember these are women that would be considered as brainwashed by those immensely overwhleming numbers of women who choose not to rid themselves of this peace of mind that is brought by tyhe veil. Imagine if you will being a creature with intelligence as women are who live their lives lying about or misrepresenting their HEIGHT, HAIR COLOUR,EYE COLOUR, HAIR,BREAST SIZE,LIP COLOUR, LIP SIZE,SKIN COLOUR,WEIGHT, EVEN VAGINA SIZE ETC ETC. and all of these at costs that would pay off a malibu property. Even going as far as surgery to perpetuate these misrepresentations it sounds like a science fiction but it is true of earthlings. And what kind of creatures do we expoect to evolve from this preoccupation. should we be surprised that we have so many mental health problems borne(largely) by this what you call freedom. Should i start on them Delusions of grandeur, beleumia, annorexia anxiety. What do you expect they are living a farce.

How are these your problems, is it because your wife sister girlfriend mother daughter has taken up the veil. If it doesn't affect you then don't dare to condescend another human who is obviously more learned then you on this subject just because (almighty) you think it is not a good idea.
Yeah! The hell with human rights! Every man and woman for themself! Never question anything that doesn't directly affect you - what a wonderful thought... :rolleyes:

Requiring by law a person to cover their head is wrong. Either you believe in a certain degree of personal freedom or you do not. Many people and many muslims do not. Its that simple.

Religion is often (primarily I would argue) used as a tool to control people. I would have no problem with Islam if it were traditionally practiced in a secular culture with a tight control on its fanatical. This isn't the case today however.

Originally posted by Markx
Did you miss my post? or are you a handicap? There is probably only one country where they make women wear veil "saudi", I don't recall it as a law any where else.

One of the most important muslim nations orders this horrible rule. And even if it is not on the books it is an unspoken rule that women are to be opressed via veiling.

Originally posted by Doing Words
Who the hell do all of you think you are.

Well, I may not be the president, but seeing women being oppressed under this horrible clothing restricition depresses me and causes me to lose my faith in humanity. Just seeing those women walking around with their faces covered like they have done something wrong makes me want to throw up. Oh wait, they did do something wrong... being born in a muslim society.

I don't know anyone who was killed or suffered because of the Holocaust. Is it not my problem?

I ask you first so you can grasp my angle. In the land where you can do more than just whine and bitch about lack of human rights, Namely your country is everything as it should be, are you living in utopia. Now i ask these rights that you speak of are rights as you see them, who are you to be imposing unwelcome rights upon others. Then don't stop there why don't you call it opression when countries make it illegal to bear arms. you know those killing devices that is a constitutional right in the US. What say you to the rest of my post then are we in agreement because as in true western fashion you are hoping to disproving me by attacking insignificant points. Concentrate on your own backyard bfore you try and change the world of those whom you know little more than what you have been told to know about.

duly noted what you said DW..

it is fair that western ideas not be imposed on other countries...
but we are talkin about human rights here... let the women decide if they want to wear the veil or they don't... give them the power instead of forcing it upon every one of em... i have seen some stark examples of women who hate wearin the veil, but can't do jack about it...

Markx:
Did you miss my post? or are you a handicap? There is probably only one country where they make women wear veil "saudi", I don't recall it as a law any where else.

And are attacked in other countries by zealots.

B/W, I like you. Pity to see you in this mess.

Doing Words:
Who the hell do all of you think you are. My problems with Islam indeed, don't flatter yourself. How are these your problems, is it because your wife sister girlfriend mother daughter has taken up the veil. If it doesn't affect you then don't dare to condescend another human who is obviously more learned then you on this subject just because (almighty) you think it is not a good idea. I am tired of people taking a few extreme examples and forming generic conclusion based on the newsworthy. I ask you why do you want to see these women remove their veils? I dare say it is the same reason as why they want to keep it on. If you didn't understand before then let me explain it to you in western terms wearing a veil is much like pretty girls going out to Gay night clubs. You may hear women previously muslim who have forsaken islam condem the practice and this will be brought to you via the media ,word of mouth etc because it has more interest value than the opposite. But remember these are women that would be considered as brainwashed by those immensely overwhleming numbers of women who choose not to rid themselves of this peace of mind that is brought by tyhe veil. Imagine if you will being a creature with intelligence as women are who live their lives lying about or misrepresenting their HEIGHT, HAIR COLOUR,EYE COLOUR, HAIR,BREAST SIZE,LIP COLOUR, LIP SIZE,SKIN COLOUR,WEIGHT, EVEN VAGINA SIZE ETC ETC. and all of these at costs that would pay off a malibu property. Even going as far as surgery to perpetuate these misrepresentations it sounds like a science fiction but it is true of earthlings. And what kind of creatures do we expoect to evolve from this preoccupation. should we be surprised that we have so many mental health problems borne(largely) by this what you call freedom. Should i start on them Delusions of grandeur, beleumia, annorexia anxiety. What do you expect they are living a farce.

Are you female? No?

Then shut your ignorent ass up.

are you living in utopia.
No, I am not living in utopia. Listen - you are sidestepping the issue and not being direct. What is being discussed is not where I live or the rights/status of women in America.

Ok - The question is whether forcing women to wear a veil by law/religious doctrine is acceptable. Do you believe it is acceptable or not? Just answer that question. Here are some more:

Do you believe humans have basic rights? Do humans have a general right to live as they please or not?

The fact is that these governments and people do not believe in these basic rights. I disagree with them. Is that clear enough for you?

If the Muslim world wasn't in the news left and right it might be easier to ignore their depressing, primative culture. But since we can't get them off CNN I have a problem with their oppressive requirments for women.

Originally posted by Xev
Markx:


And are attacked in other countries by zealots.

B/W, I like you. Pity to see you in this mess.

.

Really not a mess but very serious point raised by (npa), but he misses all other explanations and logic and like to insist on one thing. Ignoring the 26 countries and painting all with the same brush. I just reply to another person where he was trying to tell every one how his female friend was made to wear a veil. That was plain BS. Because I have been there few times and what he said was incorrect. Anyway, women have been mistreated in islamic countries and there is no question about it. They are not mistreated because ISLAM said so. There are plenty of examples of women treated badly in China, Russia or other third world countries, hell if you know how they treat women in India, you wouldn't believe it. I have friends from India and I can't imagine what they tell me.

Through out the history women have been treated worst then men. One can blame it all to religion or to the religious pandits. What I like to know why women in western world when converted or other muslims women wears a hijab or veil, when they have no pressure?.

The issue of women's rights is one of the few times I absolutely insist on a utopia. As much as mistreatment of women--of anybody for any reason--bothers me, I am lately refusing to play ball with the Joneses on this one. While I'm happy that women are out of the veil in Afghanistan and taking their drivers' tests as well--it's not about denying these progressive steps at all--I have found that Americans have no right to talk about ill-treatment of women anywhere in the world. When a woman is worth more than her weight as a prostitute, when a deadbeat father is held to answer and the single mom is no longer given shite for merely surviving, when the artistic attraction of a television show is something more than how hot is the chick ...

Look, until women are treated properly, they are not treated properly. So Muslim women are treated badly? Why don't we elevate them to American status: 1 in 4 women you know will be sexually assaulted during your lifetime, as a minimum. She is worth 15-20% less for equal labor. It is her fault that the father didn't stick around. "Son of a gun" can mean your father or mother, but "Son of a bitch" is pretty clear. Conservatism would punish women for being anything other than baby factories and flatbackers for their husbands. Oh, a little cleaning and cooking does well, too. We have no grounds in the US to be complaining about the treatment of women. There is no "our problem" and "their problem". It is all the same freaking problem. If all the leaders of all the nations and religions sat down together and hammered out a true doctrine of human rights, women would still be left off it.

Islam as a formal institution is six-hundred years younger than Christianity. Count back a few years, like six hundred. Yeah, Islam might, in many of our opinions, have much to do insofar as doctrine, practice, and reality are concerned. But the more we bitch (see? we have a gender problem when a generalized negative term is derivative of a female something ....) about Islam and the less welcoming we are toward these people--for that is what they are: people--the slower the process of reconciling disparate cultures will go. In the US we like to think of ourselves as civilized. While that point is debatable, it is worth pointing out the history that occurred to create that condition--the world transformed completely during that period. A similar transformation may be inherent in the reconciliation of East and West. Nonetheless, the longer we hold sins "we" commit against "them", the slower goes that reconciliation.

We are the human species.

We are on this rock together.

People need to get used to this reality.

And soon.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by tiassa
:


Thank you for a nice logical post, like always.:cool:

1 in 4 women you know will be sexually assaulted during your lifetime, as a minimum.

1 in 4 idiots on the internet also use this annoying-ass statistic:

1. Myth: One in four women in college has been the victim of rape or attempted rape.

Fact: This mother of all factoids is based on a fallacious feminist study commissioned by Ms. magazine. The researcher, Mary Koss, hand-picked by hard-line feminist Gloria Steinem, acknowledges that 73 percent of the young women she counted as rape victims were not aware they had been raped. Forty-three percent of them were dating their "attacker" again. -

http://www.iwf.org/news/010417.shtml

Tiassa,
Nice post though a little off the point. Yes, utopia should be demanded. Yes, problems with female rights persist everywhere on this planet - East, west, north, and south.

While I'm happy that women are out of the veil in Afghanistan and taking their drivers' tests as well--it's not about denying these progressive steps at all--I have found that Americans have no right to talk about ill-treatment of women anywhere in the world
We have no right to talk about ill-treatment of women anywhere? Then who does have the right??? Of course we have issues like anyone else...but if you are trying to suggest that women in the US have no more rights than women in Saudi Arabia..well, surely that is not what you mean.

Like 'doing words' you are avoiding the main issue by saying "Nobody is perfect so no complaining...keep to yourself!".

The point is that requiring a woman to wear a veil is wrong. Agree?

"We have no right to complain" is the anthem of the pussies.

As long as my fellow humans are being forced to regard themselves as mere cattle:
As long as my fellow humans are being legally discriminated against:
As long as my fellow humans are being tortured and beaten without their consent:

As long as this is, I have a fucking right to complain. And I will.

Originally posted by fadingCaptain
Tiassa,
!".

The point is that requiring a woman to wear a veil is wrong. Agree?

As a muslim, I agree. But Don't balme blame it on religion, agree?.

Markx, would you agree that in the present world Islam is the most misused and/or misrepresented major religion? And I exclude the statement that the United States is a Christian nation, as it quite obviously has not been for quite some time.

I am no expert of the Qu'ran, but I do believe it states that Islam should ensure no small group of people control a mass amount of the finances in a nation, no? Out of curiosity, if this is true, what is with royalty in (supposedly) Islamic nations?

As a muslim, I agree. But Don't balme blame it on religion, agree?.
I am no Islamic scholar so much of what I know comes from friends and forums like this...with that said I do not blame it on the specific religion of Islam as I have been told the teachings of the religion do not advocate mandatory veiling. So no I do not blame it on Islam.
Mainly, the blame must go to the people who are in power where this occurs. But also I think partial blame falls to religion itself (not specific to Islam). IMO, the sooner the world wakes up and realizes the polarizing, repressive, and controlling nature of religion, the better.
It is good to see a muslim step up on these forums and say veiling is wrong.

Thanks Tiassa i see more

Captain ans NotPresAnd
I am not missing the point i think you may not be understanding, I do not suggest you do not complain about injustices but
1 complain poigniantly so that you are not wasting your precious life.
2 what you are calling a human right is exactly that, what you all believe to be a human right . Nobody here can tell me that the majority of women wearing the veil wish to be rid of it. whereas i can tell you by virute of its existence which is much mo0re than all you have got which is just imagination. the overwhelming majority want the veil and do see it as freedom above and beyond what you think you are enjoying. Do not forget the stories you all use are inherently a small number of cases for it it was the order of the day it would not be news worthy and you would not of heard it and you wouldn't have drawn conclusions based on the extreme collective.

Xev
I am sorry i cannot really reply to your arguments as they are emotive, angry and bitter. But let me explain something to you. If you were to actually wear a veil in this most innapropriate world let us ascertain your losses from your gains.

Losses amount to a world where you have:
*a Lack of vitamin D
*perhaps some ridicule (but now it would be impeaching your freedom to wear a veil). But nonetheless it would be a sacrifice.
*not recieve the joy of arousing men (lets face it is enjoyable) but this is only available to the about 10 % of women the rest would probably enjoy the mystique of a man not knowing what she looks like so this may not count..
i cannot think of any more but please add to it as you see fit.

Gains amount to living in a world where you:
*do not have to do your hair for 30-50 minutes a day
*Do not need to apply make up which has to be removed 15 = 5 mins
*do not need to shave your legs as frequently
* do not have to spend your families money on make-up, hair dressers, I would have to reccomend you placed a limit at perfume and continued to indulge (but i don't think even the saudi's have a problem with this either)
* just wear comfortable bras (oh and by the way you should also be rid of that desire if you have it , to slash your breasts and arificially increase and/or decrease your breasts and the associated cost saving {ie a new car perhaps or a holiday}
*This is a new one oblige men to talk to you with only the substance of what you say on their minds(of course after the initial shock)
*reduce the chances of being robbed by a muslim theif(and probably christian as well we are crazy remember)
*experience intrigue in you unlike 90% of women have seen.
*eliminate the risk of skin cancer
*Guard against halitosis to and from you
*reduce the chances of being caught if you are having an affair and/or committing a crime

sorry i have to go now but feel free to fill in if you can think of any other advantages.


and no i am not a women

Yes you may be right but i can also show you some stark examples of people who don't want to pay taxes but they have to also.
If that was not good enough then let me rephrase it would the world, or for choice of a better word, people be better off if it were law to eat and exersice properly. Would we be better off even when you count the oppression. honestly. Well my point is this there is a regrettfully large faction of the populous that are bettered off being forced to help themselves. while on this stark point i should mention another benefit of wearing a veil that i forgot to mention and it's result is arguably the riddance of what must be the greatest fear of most people second only to a death and that is INFIDELITY yes. I can assure you that this would be the second most ctastophic occurence to death in my life(and as we are inalienably created equal i am assuming it applies to most opthewrs. well this is a guess and perhaps somebody would care to research the frequency of infidelity amongst partners between the veil wearing communities and the not.

Originally posted by Doing Words
what you are calling a human right is exactly that, what you all believe to be a human right . Nobody here can tell me that the majority of women wearing the veil wish to be rid of it. whereas i can tell you by virute of its existence which is much mo0re than all you have got which is just imagination. the overwhelming majority want the veil and do see it as freedom above and beyond what you think you are enjoying.And if a woman does not desire to wear the veil?

You see, no one here is arguing that women should not be able to wear a veil if they so choose.
What is being argued is that women should be free to wear one or not based upon their own choice.

You seem to be missing the point entirely.

~Raithere

Originally posted by tiassa
I have found that Americans have no right to talk about ill-treatment of women anywhere in the world. When a woman is worth more than her weight as a prostitute, when a deadbeat father is held to answer and the single mom is no longer given shite for merely surviving, when the artistic attraction of a television show is something more than how hot is the chick ...While I agree with you regarding the ill-treatment of women globally I cannot agree that Americans or anyone else should not decry any such treatment, anywhere. Improvement, even if is only relative is still improvement. And that the public takes notice of these extreme examples also serves to bring all of these problems into the public consciousness.

We might take for example the thoughts of the Founding Fathers who, while they were fighting for the rights of white land-owners, founded the principals of liberty and democracy that we have extended to all classes, both sexes, and all races. That Jefferson owned slaves is not inconsequential but truth, once revealed, is difficult to cover up again. They wrought better than they knew.

~Raithere

dont ANY of you know that its a CHOICE?????

hell i have known that since we studyed islam as part of our study of the culture of indoneasia in year 7

Xev
I am sorry i cannot really reply to your arguments as they are emotive, angry and bitter.

Emotional? Damn straight I'm emotional. And no person deserving the label of human is unemotional when it comes to the forced degradation of non-consenting humans.

Losses amount to a world where you have:
*a Lack of vitamin D
*perhaps some ridicule (but now it would be impeaching your freedom to wear a veil). But nonetheless it would be a sacrifice.
*not recieve the joy of arousing men (lets face it is enjoyable) but this is only available to the about 10 % of women the rest would probably enjoy the mystique of a man not knowing what she looks like so this may not count..

Actually, Doing Words, I exist for purposes other than arousing men. I am a Nietzschean, hear me roar. *Smiles*

Gains amount to living in a world where you:
*do not have to do your hair for 30-50 minutes a day

I rarely spend more than a minute combing my hair every day.

*Do not need to apply make up which has to be removed 15 = 5 mins

I apply makeup in the morning if I've got nothing better to do. That's it for the day.

*do not need to shave your legs as frequently

Eww gross, and resemble a cavewoman?

* do not have to spend your families money on make-up, hair dressers, I would have to reccomend you placed a limit at perfume and continued to indulge (but i don't think even the saudi's have a problem with this either)

I make my own money. I do not visit hair dressers.

* just wear comfortable bras

Already do. I don't have to face a dichotomy of making myself uncomfortable or hiding my body.

(oh and by the way you should also be rid of that desire if you have it , to slash your breasts and arificially increase and/or decrease your breasts and the associated cost saving {ie a new car perhaps or a holiday}

Nup, perfectly happy with myself in that regard.

*This is a new one oblige men to talk to you with only the substance of what you say on their minds(of course after the initial shock)

I don't bother with men if they can't discuss Hegel with a curvacious young woman in a tight shirt.

*reduce the chances of being robbed by a muslim theif(and probably christian as well we are crazy remember)

Hmm, I pity the son of a bitch who tries to rob me of whatever money I haven't spent on books (not much).

*reduce the chances of being caught if you are having an affair and/or committing a crime

Wouldn't cheat on the man I love, and I'd be a better criminal than that.

and no i am not a women

So then, how can you judge what a woman's experience would be like, behind that veil?

If a woman wants such a thing, so be it. However, it should not be forced. No human should be forced, whether by force of law or force of custom, to degrade themself.

oh just B\W christanity made it a church law that women wear head covering and gloves in church, jewish men MUST wear headcovering in a cinagog (sorry if thats misspelt)

whats the difference?

and for the first post that said they dont get vitamen E (or is it D?) havent you ever herd of "slip slop slap"

thats in AUSTRALIA because of the sun, i imagin if i was living IN A DESERT that i would do more than that (ie stay out of the sun all together)

dont ANY of you know that its a CHOICE?????

Yes.

"Be veiled or have acid thrown at you"
"Be veiled or be forced to die in flames"
"Let yourself be degraded or we will do it for you"
"Reduce yourself to this or we will drag you down even further"

Hell of a choice, Anthony.

OMG americans and there "freedom"

i herd one of you (think it was XEV) say that its "impeaching on my freedom" to let the police random breath test

so much for "freedom"

you can keep it

are we talking about islam as a RELIGION or the culture of a FEW contrys?

so much for "freedom"

Freedom.

I will not be humiliated unless I wish to be.
I will not be reduced to the status of a sexual object unless I choose to be.
I will not be enslaved.
I will not be silenced.
I will never lose the protection of my laws simply for being born female.

I am American, and we value our freedoms too lightly. But we value them all the same.

are we talking about islam as a RELIGION or the culture of a FEW contrys?

The culture of numerous countries, which is based on the religion of Islam.

i will be free even if it kills me and everyone i care about

And how would allowing women a choice in veiling kill anyone at all?

it was more a case of you have ur culture they have theres and HOW DARE YOU impose yours on them (unless you would like australia to "liberate" you from your own idiocy with breath testing and seat belt laws, and impose OUR culture on YOU)

and xev you STILL havent answered the question because the religion its TOTALLY a choice where the things i named in OTHER religions arnt

it was more a case of you have ur culture they have theres and HOW DARE YOU impose yours on them

I impose nothing. I am not going to single-handedly invade Saudi Arabia. If I pity the poor women in my own town who are veiled, well, that's hardly an impostion.

(unless you would like australia to "liberate" you from your own idiocy with breath testing and seat belt laws, and impose OUR culture on YOU)

This is irrelevent.

and xev you STILL havent answered the question because the religion its TOTALLY a choice where the things i named in OTHER religions arnt

I have nothing but contempt for anything that interrupts and destroys the human. That includes most religions.

Choice? I think I debunked that argument. Let me quote:

"Be veiled or have acid thrown at you"
"Be veiled or be forced to die in flames"
"Let yourself be degraded or we will do it for you"
"Reduce yourself to this or we will drag you down even further"

Hell of a choice, Anthony.

xev i cant be bothered if you dont even bother to STUDY what your talking about

look at indoneasia which just HAPPENS to be the biggest musliam country in the world

no one is stoned because they dont wear it

Anthony, why assume I haven't studied?

As for Indonesia, I'm not going to comment unless you can back up your statements.

actully my dear:p

the burden of proof is on YOU seeing as YOU said they stoned people for it, you KNOW its impossable to prove a negative

No. You made a statement. Back it up.

My statement did not address stoning. Unveiled women have had acid thrown at them in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (I think) and have been forced to stay in burning buildings in Saudi Arabia.

your again blaming all muslims for something that happens in a few countrys

do you blame all catholics for irland?

I blame not Muslims. I blame Islam.

No, but I blame Catholicism for the Inquisition.

Ok. My only real problem with Islam (other than the Koran ordering me to be killed) is the clothing requirment for women (head covering and veil). It's oppressive. Islam turns me off in every field, but the veil is my one major beef with this recekhed religion.

Ok. My only real problem with Islam (other than the Koran ordering me to be killed) is the clothing requirment for women (head covering and veil). It's oppressive. Islam turns me off in every field, but the veil is my one major beef with this recekhed religion.

yes lets go to war and kill 1000s of them so they can be free

dont worrie that they will also be dead

if they CHOSE to follow it then who are YOU to dictate they cant?

oh and xev muslam IS islam

they are the verb and noun (i THINK) respectivly

[QUOTE]Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
No one (except for James) is debunking what I said, but we all realize that Green is wrong. Covering heads, covering faces, what's the difference? Women are oppressed either way. What is the point to women covering their hair? There is none, except to demonstrate their lowly position in muslim societies.
======================================

Did you ask yourself why WOMEN in the WEST are converting to ISLAM and covering their FACES FREELY ????

CHECK THIS PICTURE:
http://www.islamfortoday.com/Candice%20Vancraenenbroek.jpg

and here you can check this stroy:

Karla's conversion to Islam:

How could you, an educated American woman convert to Islam - a religion that oppresses women?" - Blonde-haired blue-eyed, former Christian, Karla, explains how her theological dissatisfaction with the doctrine of Jesus as God and her discovery of the rights given to women in Islam led her to become a Muslim.

My conversion process to Islam was a long one (it took 20 years!). It started when I was 12. I went to this over-priced private school...very Anglophile...made us wear uniforms...had us in Forms, rather than grades, etc. Anyway, we were studying the major religions of the world--had a little book on Christianity, one on Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. I remember being really fascinated with Islam, and thinking that Muslims weren't hypocrites like the Christians I knew. I remember two things really standing out for me. One, being the focus on one God alone. I had always had questions about Christianity's viewing Jesus as God--and how that went against the first commandment. The second item that stood out was salat. Not just praying five times/day, but how the majority of the prayer focused on worshiping God. In Christianity, our prayers tended to be "gimme prayers." "God, give me this...God give me that."

I went to college in Washington DC, which has a pretty large Muslim population. My interest in Islam was still definitely there--although I was way too shy. I used to do "drive by mosquings"--going by the Islamic Center on Mass Ave., too shy to go in. Once I called to see if they had classes for people interested in Islam, but I never received a call back. I did buy myself a copy of the Qur'an, and began to read it. It was amazing. It just kind of went into my heart, y'know? The thing that really amazed me about Islam from the beginning, were the rights given to women. I know many people today would laugh at me for such a statement, but as somebody who has read the Bible--I saw rights given to women in Islam that were never given to women in the Bible. Women were given the right to refuse a partner in marriage; whereas, in typical Christian Western Culture at the time (600s CE), women were basically viewed as their father's property--to marry as he saw fit. Women were guaranteed a portion of their father's and husband's inheritance; whereas, in the West, that inheritance typically went only to the eldest son. Women had the right to own property and enter into contracts. A right that women in the United States did not obtain until the mid-Nineteenth Century. The Prophet Muhammed preached against female infanticide--a common practice of the time, and one that is still a problem in India and China. Of course, today it is a high-tech female infanticide--abortions done after an ultrasound to determine the sex of the child. Both men and women were admonished to seek knowledge from "the cradle to the grave." Unfortunately, culture seems to interfere with some of those rights these days.

During my senior year, I found a dawa program on TV called, "Islam." It featured a western looking woman anchor who would interview people on various topics regarding Islam. I believe it was put out by the Islamic Information Service, but I'm not sure. I became totally addicted to this show...actually setting my VCR to tape it, if I was going to be out. I don't remember which channel it was on--just that it was shown on Fridays, and that each show began with "In the name of God, Most Merciful, Most Gracious." When the shahadah show came on, I knew I believed...so I said it with my TV. In God's mind did I become a Muslim then? I don't know. Unfortunately, I did not know any Muslims to talk to about Islam. I was also very worried about what my friends and family would think. Sometime following graduation (I think this was 1990 or 1991), the Saudi Embassy sponsored an Islamic Art exhibit downtown. I remember asking one of the exhibitors if they had any additional information on Islam--and the guy said, "No." I was crushed. I just didn't know where to turn to find out more about Islam. Who to talk to about my questions. I was just too shy to go into a mosque. I didn't even know if I could go in, as a woman. I didn't know if I'd be properly dressed...or if I'd be the only non-Arabic speaking person there. I just kept reading my Qur'an, and asking God the questions. Hoping God would answer my prayers.

My hunger for God did not cease, however....so I decided to go with a more conventional religion, and became a Christian sometime during my mid-20s. The problem was, I always had questions/doubts regarding Christianity---mainly about the concept of the Trinity/Divinity of Jesus. Jesus as God just didn't make sense to me--as it would go against the First commandment and what Jesus himself seemed to practice. He always focused on God the Father, so to speak. When asked, he said that the Greatest Commandment was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. God--singular. That's something I've always strived to do, and hope to improve at still. I asked a few different pastors about my doubts, and the response I would get would be, "You simply need to have faith." I remember in one Bible study class this guy started saying all these lies about Muslims. I spoke up, and said, "That's not true." and began to tell the people in my Sunday School about what Muslims really believed. See...even then...I couldn't deny the shahadah. I still believed that there was only one God, God, and that Muhammad was the Prophet of God.

While at grad school in Tennessee, I contacted the Muslim Student Association on campus. Two sisters met me at a local bakery for tea. Unfortunately, they didn't really understand that I wanted to convert--and the whole meeting was rather bizarre. I decided that I would just consider myself a Monotheist, and call it a day. I would read on all of the major Monotheistic faiths--Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. I became more and more uncomfortable with Christianity, though. If I went into a church, and there was a crucifix on the wall...it would weird me out. It seemed like an idol that people were worshipping. I did enjoy learning more about Judaism--and found it to be the closest to Islam. Sadly, the two brothers fight way too much these days.

I joined my current company almost two years ago. Coincidentally during my HR orientation, there was a guy who I would work a lot with there. He ended up working for me on numerous projects, and we became friends. He was just out of college, and a rebel. I started asking him how he could drink, if he was a Muslim (threatened to tell his Mom)....asked him why he didn't go to Jummah (Friday) prayer, etc. Over the course of a year, I realized that in talking to him, I was really talking to myself. (I don't drink though--never have.)

So around last February, I went to our local Islamic Center's New Muslims class on a Wednesday night. There was nobody there. One of the brothers kept saying...just wait for Isha (the evening prayer)...the Imam (religious leader) will be here...but I felt too uncomfortable. I left. About four weeks later, I tried again. There was a class going on. That night, 10-11 years after I had first said shahadah in my apartment in DC in front of a TV set, I said shahadah in front of the Imam, a Muslim Sister, and a whole bunch of people interested in Islam. Since that time, I've learned to pray (something I had tried to teach myself through the Web and videos for years!)...and begun to study Arabic. Insha'Allah (God willing), one day I'll be able to read and understand the Qur'an in Arabic. I'm totally amazed that I can already read certain bits of the Qur'an; although, my vocabulary does not allow me to understand much...yet.

Monday, October 8th 2001, was a momentous day in my life as a Muslim as well. I wore hijab (Muslim head covering) for the first time ever to work as part of the Scarves for Solidarity campaign. I was the celebrity at work--people kept walking by my office door, etc. I had posted articles about "Scarves for Solidarity" as well as Islam on the door. And when people asked me, "Are you one of them?" or "Are you a Muslim?" I said, "Yes." So now I'm out of the "Muslim-closet" at work. I guess people just assumed that a blonde-haired blue-eyed person could not be a Muslim. The main question people seem to ask, is "How could you, an educated American woman convert to Islam--a religion that oppresses women?" They are quick to try and equate the rights of women in Afghanistan with the rights of Muslim women everywhere. Basically, what I tell them, is that the Qur'an gives women more rights than the Bible does--in print. That was one of the things that first drew me to Islam. Unfortunately today, Islam is no longer the leader in women's rights. I had a choice--deny what I believe (i.e. that There is only one God, and that Muhammed is a Prophet of God)...or accept what I believe, but work to change the problems that exist within the Muslim community. I chose the latter.
_________________________________

Glossary for non-Muslim readers
dawa - invitation to Islam
shahada - profession of Islamic faith

Firstly apart from your repulsive grandstanding the comments you made in retort to my pro's and cons are again an illustration of my inference that you make generic conclusions a minority of cases, Lets assume you didn't reduce yourself to lying in your reply every single answer yopu gave places you in the minority of female characteristic examples. are you trying to tell me most women don't have the concerns i have outlined for gods sake woman wake up. I have realised from your replies however one very very important lesson. and tyhat is are you ALL listening . Well liisten carefully.
Are you ready .

You majority americans who are preaching the ever important right of freedom are actually missing the most important right pertaining to freedom that exists Yes you are in the worst bondage imaginable (and this is very evident by all of you continually repeatedly continuallly repeatadly using radical infrequent and extreme examples of most everything to make general conclusions) this bondage i speak of is the ever important and most important freedom of having your own opinion, I don't know what is worse the filtration of the news to let you hear what it is wanted for you to hear or the fact that you are oblivious to this. I am by know means a conspiracy theorist but the media being controlled is a reality your decision to be led is apathy.
Let me extend a word of advice for when you next want to argue race creed or religion. Am i taking a rare example and using it to try and change what is the majorities preference and All men are inalienably created equal so nobody is wrong except the minority.

Raithere
Read it again and again and again then reply saying "I am sorry"

Tyler
very lateral and i am impressed

Asquard

I am humbled by your patience

Notpresidentandrew
I apologise if i sound condescending but you are living testimony of "a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing"

Why don't you answer my questions?

Here is a very simple question for doing words or asguard or green world:

Should women be allowed to choose if they wear a veil or not?

Just answer that question. If your answer is yes, we are in agreement. If your answer is no, you have no respect for your fellow humans.

It is a simple request.

Originally posted by Doing Words
Read it again and again and again then reply saying "I am sorry"I'm not quite sure what it is I have to apologize for, perhaps you could be more specific.

~Raithere

im with fadincapitan (deliberate:D ) here...

it boils down to that one simple question... lets hear it...

QUOTE]Originally posted by Tyler
Markx, would you agree that in the present world Islam is the most misused and/or misrepresented major religion? And I exclude the statement that the United States is a Christian nation, as it quite obviously has not been for quite some time.

I am no expert of the Qu'ran, but I do believe it states that Islam should ensure no small group of people control a mass amount of the finances in a nation, no? Out of curiosity, if this is true, what is with royalty in (supposedly) Islamic nations? [/QUOTE]


Yes Sir! you are absolutley right. Quran has given very specific and clear instructions about rulers and checks and balancing etc and no one, so far in muslim world is following them. Some are trying, but power hungry royalty is the major problem in the way. It is a sad fact what you have just stated. Frankly I feel sick when I think about arab rulers sepcialy.


fadingCaptain

Islam is all about choice, you wanted to know if they should be allowed to wear it or not? YES! they have a choice according to Quran, the whole Quran is choice, you beleive it or not it is your choice, it is a warning of what will be coming, you believe it or not and every one will answer to GOD by himself. Just a warning, if people are misusing it they will be held responsible.

Xev,
You are looking at the some incidents and drawing conclusions, in the population of more then 1.5 billion people you are lookin at 5-7 incidents and thinks that is what is going on in those countries. As far as I know more then 75% Of Pakistani women do not wear a veil, I may be wrong but I have friends from India and Pakistan and I have talked to them about it many times before I converted. It is a misconception and a very common one, thanks to the Television and Media bias.

Originally posted by Green_World
[B][QUOTE][i]

IN INDONESIA, THE LARGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY, THE PRESIDENT IS MUSLIM WOMAN: PRESIDENT MEGAWATI.
Yes that's right, because the president behind her was blind, remember??

:D

Should women be allowed to choose if they wear a veil or not?

Just answer that question. If your answer is yes, we are in agreement. If your answer is no, you have no respect for your fellow humans.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Before i reply to your simple question. will you answer this before you reply.

The quote above of your last post is the epitomy of a bigot is it not. You are saying agree with me or you are a fcuking idiot, are you not. you should have the decency to ask a question demanding an arbitrary answer. are we agreed here.

I do have respect for fellow human beings exceeding most i am told. But yet i must say NO (while i maintain any corporal punishment is not condoned for this or anything in general).
Just as mankind would be better off if we are legislated to eat and excersise correctly, we constantly prove we (continually in immense numbers) do not know what is best for us so a little legislative guidance may be in order. i mean who likes to pay taxes and who wishes they could speed unlimited in their sports cars etc. While some (some being the operative word here) western women are balanced most are fraught with with a totally wacked outlook (look at my losses and Gains post) I mean if you ask a woman about what it is that concerns her most in life(here i am refering to amount of time concerned) most if honest will refer to their looks in one way or another and wish they could change or disguise their problems if we continually to let this evolve we will continue to have 90% of women sad for life as they don't get the unjust benefits that those born beautiful are adorned with. Do some research on mental health in the west and examine the multitude of problems our women experience or just count the numkber of tablets downers uppers prozac etc that we NEED. before you reply they are to poor to have all these tablets and therapy and so there problems go undetected.
That to is valid but i have spoken to women of both cultures and while i grant many (not most and most importantly not the mature and learned) of them wish they could be rid of this oppressive veil they all have much more correct or at least tangible concerns. So while it would be oppressive to demand by legislation they don a veil i think the argument would win they it would extend peace of mind to more woman than not. Just as legislating healthy food and excersise their would be outcries from everyone but the earth would be better for it.

Doing Words:
You majority americans who are preaching the ever important right of freedom are actually missing the most important right pertaining to freedom that exists

You know what? I agree! If only what you typed made sense.

Yes you are in the worst bondage imaginable

Sadly, tragically, no.

Hey, are you planning to address my arguments?

(and this is very evident by all of you continually repeatedly continuallly repeatadly using radical infrequent and extreme examples of most everything to make general conclusions)

Great! Then you'll address my arguments!

this bondage i speak of is the ever important and most important freedom of having your own opinion, I don't know what is worse the filtration of the news to let you hear what it is wanted for you to hear or the fact that you are oblivious to this.

And this has what to do with my arguments?

I am by know means a conspiracy theorist but the media being controlled is a reality your decision to be led is apathy.

Umm, are you going to address my arguments now?

Let me extend a word of advice for when you next want to argue race creed or religion.

Okay. Then will you address my arguments?

Am i taking a rare example and using it to try and change what is the majorities preference and All men are inalienably created equal so nobody is wrong except the minority.

Oh, I guess you're not going to address my arguments. Pity.

Asguard:

yes lets go to war and kill 1000s of them so they can be free

If you actually paid attention to my posts, you'd notice that I oppose military action against Iraq.

dont worrie that they will also be dead

See above.

if they CHOSE to follow it then who are YOU to dictate they cant?

I'm arguing for their choice to be slaves. Thus your argument is irrelevent.

oh and xev muslam IS islam
they are the verb and noun (i THINK) respectivly

A Muslim is someone who follows the religion of Islam. A religion is a concept, thus can never be a true noun.

The quote above of your last post is the epitomy of a bigot is it not.
Do you know what the word bigot means?

I do have respect for fellow human beings exceeding most i am told. But yet i must say NO
You do not have respect for your fellow humans. If anyone tells you different they are full of shit. You think women should be required by law to cover their heads, just because YOU think they should do it. That is pathetic. The rest of your post was worthless except to suggest that you also think there should be regulations on what people eat and how much they exercise. You are a believer in repression and control. I am a believer in the individual and freedom.

DW.. do you just realize what you said? its real sad.. trynna cover up insensitive behaviour towards women with crappy rationalization... individuality and freedom are much respected ideals in this world and you deny both to women... it reflects on how men want to keep women subservient and always a few paces behind... and you mentioned legislation.. who came up with that legislation? men? right? proves my point... men know whats the best for women and they should just accept their judgement to be accurate... how self involved is this practice?

Originally posted by fadingCaptain
Do you know what the word bigot means?


You do not have respect for your fellow humans. If anyone tells you different they are full of shit. You think women should be required by law to cover their heads, just because YOU think they should do it. That is pathetic. The rest of your post was worthless except to suggest that you also think there should be regulations on what people eat and how much they exercise. You are a believer in repression and control. I am a believer in the individual and freedom.

Bigot, taken from a shortening of By Got, french slang for 'superstitious and intolerant"

Originally posted by Green_World

Did you ask yourself why WOMEN in the WEST are converting to ISLAM and covering their FACES FREELY ????

Karla's conversion to Islam:

"How could you, an educated American woman convert to Islam - a religion that oppresses women?" - Blonde-haired blue-eyed, former Christian, Karla, explains how her theological dissatisfaction with the doctrine of Jesus as God and her discovery of the rights given to women in Islam led her to become a Muslim.

Well, you will always get converts to islam, it is an appealing religion for those that want simple, straightforward answers. I to, had problems with the Trinity, left Catholism at 17 y.o. Explored Judaism & maintained a connection with them until 26 y.o.

I became a christian again after having problems accepting:
1) the use of the 'royal we' in the Hebrew Bible; "elohim" (gods) is the plural of "el"(god) used several times, including in Genesis where it says, in Genesis 1:26, “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…” ”,
2) the fact that the universe exists, which presupposing ‘cause & effect’, (a common idea in science), but does not explain the ‘why’, or the ‘how’ we exist (what was the spark that started this universe?)
3) the fact that life exists in all its diversity on this earth (what was the spark of life?)
4) the fact that as modern humans (for over 100,000 years), it took us so long to start inventing things, so that for 80,000 of those years we were still stone-age, so that the last 20,000 of those years we have invented; art, architecture, agriculture & a technology more sophisticated than rock tools & weapons. (what was the spark of that genius?)
5) the reading of science-fiction had brought me the possibility that there were more explanations to & dimensions to reality
6) events in my life, that led me to believe that transient events are not explainable by science &
7) the fact that Christians always prayed for me & shared their faith with me.
Which science could not answer, but faith did

I believe that islam has many good & bad elements in it:
1) 5 simple rules (easy to remember & follow)
2) mixes ideas from Judaism & Christian (borrows from the past)
3) believes in public displays of religious fervor (Jesus condemned them, as being shallow & their own reward)
4) believes it is the ‘final’ religion (presupposes that it is more correct than Christianity or Judaism)
5) believes that Arabic is a divine language (presupposes that god only speaks Arabic, so that all others need to learn it to properly understand the q’ran)
6) legitimizes many worldly practices (slavery, piracy, war for conquest, polygamy, 2nd class & 3rd status for minorities & women)
I will never convert to islam, I feel that it is a poor imitation of Christianity, & because of the central place of the Arabic language in Islamic belief & thought, it is a tribal religion unworthy of a universal “God”, but worthy of a crescent moon-god named ‘allah’ whose Arabic followers got to reform him into a monotheistic deity via Mohammet’s ‘visions'.