I just saw Fitna on youtube.

I think ALL Muslims should broadcast it on their blogs and websites.

I certainly will.

Its an excellent Dutch anti-Islam film. :cool:

You have a website?

You have a website?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103

Dutch Muslim Channel Offers to Air “Fitna”

This is hilarious: the only channel in the Netherlands that wants to broadcast Geert Wilders’ movie “Fitna” is… wait for it… the Dutch Muslim Channel (Nederlandse Moslim Omroep). When asked whether that isn’t a little bit strange, a spokesman for the channel said that he doesn’t find it strange at all; the channel frequently allows Islamcritics to say what’s on their minds.

:bravo:

Excellent!!!

Lets hope they show it in all Muslim countries. :xctd:

i thought the mods decided its forbidden to open a thread on this.

as usual SAM can do everything she wants to.

This is exactly why many rational people leave this forum.

This is exactly why many rational people leave this forum.

that sure does explain the rise in anti jewish and israeli posts.

Frankly I think the hoopla leading up to the film was more exciting than the film itself.

He has only talked about extremists and imams who provoke some people.

The association with Quranic verses is unfortunate but not unusual; he's not saying anything new that we haven't heard ad nauseum in this forum.

All in all its pretty dull and boring.

I don't see the relevance of this thread!

Its my free thoughts on the subject of the Dutch anti-Islam film.

i think that if there is no double standard in sci fi forum, this thread should be deleted and SAM should be reported to plazma, just like it would happen to any of us.

Asguard does not moderate Free Thoughts, invert does.

Anyway, here (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,544059,00.html) is a good review of the film:

In a review, a film critic for the Dutch paper NRC Handesblad says the message of Geert Wilders' film is straightforward: the Koran calls for violence and Muslims are receptive to that call. The style of rhetoric recalls "An Inconvenient Truth" and "Harry Potter: Witchcraft Repackaged."

"Fitna," which according to the credits at the end of the film was made by Wilders and someone hiding behind the name of Scarlet Pimpernel, is a 16-minute long compilation of largely archive material.

The archive material has been edited to make Wilders' point: that the Koran calls for violence and Muslims are receptive to that call. It is a tried and tested method of film-making.

According to the book Nazis and the Cinema (Susan Tegel, 2007), the Soviet film-maker Esfir Schub was the first to work like this in her film The Fall of the Romanov Dynasty (1927). The most noted example of this technique is Der ewige Jude (The Eternal Jew) (1940) by Frits Hippler. To make it clear, apart from the use of existing material, there is no similarity between that anti-Semitic production and "Fitna." Hippler wanted to show that Jews were sub-human, and combined images of filthy Polish ghettos with squirming rats to make his arguments more powerful. In "Fitna," Muslims are only shown if they make radical statements.

This rhetoric makes "Fitna" similar to ...Harry Potter: Witchcraft Repackaged, by a US evangelical group which wants to prove that JK Rowling's books are dangerous to children. The conclusion is the same as in Wilders' film: ban the books.


That pretty much sums up the movie in my opinion.

I find it interesting that Wilders himself does not appear on camera.:p

Sorry vega , i am a bit lost here..

what has sam done exactly apart from say that she like an anti-islamic film and she reckons all muslims should have it on their websites and stuff, whats wrong with that??

Or am i missing something due to the fatc that i have not posted for a while

Asguard does not moderate Free Thoughts, invert does.


so you posted it here to override Asguard . how lovely:rolleyes:

ill bet if i have done that ill get reported, but no, not deer old SAM who can do what ever she wants on sci fi. :D

You're off topic

You're off topic

so report me :D

No one has ANY free thoughts about the movie? :confused:

No one has ANY free thoughts about the movie? :confused:

maybe we should ask this guy?

http://www.sherlockhoundpetdeli.com/images/bob%20weekend%20escapes/donkey.jpg

Mr. Spock: "maybe we should ask this guy?"

Shubak, ya himaar?

He won't answer me, Spock.

I watched as much as I could stand of Fitna-pure trash propaganda. Draqon posted a link to it in a way that seemed complimentary, and that sort of presentation here did ruffle me: I wouldn't like for Sciforums to start resembling a neonazi board, with prominent links to all sorts of corrupt and ignorant screeds.

Because Fitna is making global waves, I wish we could discuss it in Whirled Events. The most interesting aspect to me will be how universally it is recognized as the shit that it is. I'm wondering if extreme propaganda like this might open the eyes of some people who have caught only a mild case of the islamophobia virus. Maybe Fitna will be more thought-provoking than hate-mongering within intelligent communities. But it's sure to fan the flames among those harboring ignorant fears and deep hatred of Islam.

:bravo:

Excellent!!!

Lets hope they show it in all Muslim countries. :xctd:

I can see good things coming from this.

http://boortz.com/images/muhammed_cartoon.jpg

francois: "I can see good things coming from this."

Would you care to be specific? I can see good and bad, and I'm not sure on which side there will be the most impact (see my last post).

its funny posting a thread on fitna in a forum filled with people who think 911 was an inside job, or either a mossad(zionist) doing.

I can see good things coming from this.

http://boortz.com/images/muhammed_cartoon.jpg

That reminds me. Apparently he forgot to ask permission to use the cartoon

Danish newspaper cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, whose depiction of the Prophet Mohammed with a bomb in his turban sparked violent protests in 2006, complained on Dutch TV that Wilders used his work without permission, "so it is simply a case of violation of copyright rules".

as well as the clip

Dutch director Rob Muntz was also surprised to see a clip of an interview he conducted with Theo van Gogh, the Dutch filmmaker who was stabbed and shot dead in Amsterdam. Muntz says he never gave permission, and will seek legal advice too.

and got confused between a rap singer and a murderer

Wilders also mistakenly used a photo of Dutch-Moroccan rapper Salah Edin instead of Mohammed Bouyeri, Theo van Gogh’s murderer. Edin, perhaps unsurprisingly, is also suing.

Rather silly, if you ask me.

Mr. Spock: "a forum filled with people who think 911 was an inside job, or either a mossad(zionist) doing."

That doesn't seem accurate, at least not outside of the pseudoscience threads. Those kind of wild conspiracies don't get an eager reception in the World neighborhood. It seems to me as if alarmism about "Islamofascist World Domination" gets more play, at least when it's not as sensationalist as Fitna.

Mr. Spock: "a forum filled with people who think 911 was an inside job, or either a mossad(zionist) doing."

That doesn't seem accurate, at least not outside of the pseudoscience threads. Those kind of wild conspiracies don't get an eager reception in the World neighborhood. It seems to me as if alarmism about "Islamofascist World Domination" gets more play, at least when it's not as sensationalist as Fitna.

so not accurate that there were days i lost count of the posts blaming israel and the US on 911.

There's an important difference between acknowledging Israeli and US provocation of terrorism, and speculating that Israel and/or the US were secretly involved in the 9-11 attacks. Of the former, there have been many proponents, including myself. Of the latter, not so many- and their arguments are easy to logically debunk. It just isn't honest to conflate those two camps.

Conflating very different arguments is a similar sort of slapped-together reasoning that Fitna apparently displays. There may be some redeeming value in critiquing it.

There's an important difference between acknowledging Israeli and US for provocation of terrorism, and speculating that Israel and/or the US were secretly involved in the 9-11 attacks. Of the former, there have been many proponents, including myself. Of the latter, not so many, and their arguments are easy to debunk. It isn't honest to conflate the two camps.

This is a similar sort of slapped-together reasoning that Fitna apparently displays. There may be some redeeming value in critiquing it.

sure there is a difference. i never said there wasnt. perhaps the slap around is yours, for mixing the two without me saying so, a?

Because Fitna is making global waves, I wish we could discuss it in Whirled Events. The most interesting aspect to me will be how universally it is recognized as the shit that it is. I'm wondering if extreme propaganda like this might open the eyes of some people who have caught only a mild case of the islamophobia virus. Maybe Fitna will be more thought-provoking than hate-mongering within intelligent communities. But it's sure to fan the flames among those harboring ignorant fears and deep hatred of Islam.

I think the Dutch Muslims are setting a great example.

There was virtually no reaction throughout the Netherlands to Geert Wilders' much-anticipated film, that was watched by more than 2 million people within the first two hours of its release on the internet.

The vast majority of Dutch viewers, Muslims and non-Muslims alike appear not to have found the film particularly provocative towards Muslims.

In Eindhoven, several Muslim organizations distributed special forms in the city's seven mosques enabling everyone to file a complaint of discrimination against Wilders with the Dutch police.

But in the crowded shopping streets of Lombok in the fourth largest Dutch city, Muslims appeared much less motivated to take action against Wilders. Friday's shopping continued as usual.

'No, we are not talking about Fitna,' a man standing among a large group of Muslims standing outside a local mosque after prayers on Friday, told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa.

'We are talking about my new car. That's really more important than some film by a Dutch legislator about the Koran.'

Another man, who identified himself as Ahmed, 27, added, 'Of course we watched the movie. But the truth is Wilders showed nothing new in his film. What does he think, that I agree to the horrific executions he showed in his film?'

In a local grocery store, a woman wearing a black burka responded confused when approached by dpa. She said she cannot talk to the media. Asked whether she had seen Wilders' movie, she apologized and walked away.

Another Muslim woman, wearing a headscarf had apparently witnessed the encounter, and approached dpa on her own initiative.

'It is a pity she did not talk to you,' said Fatima, a 32-year-old mother of two. 'Her refusal to talk to Western media confirms the ideas of people like Wilders.'

'The truth is that the vast majority of us, Dutch Muslims, do not identify with terrorist and fundamentalist ideas such as those expressed in the movie.'

'We just want to live our lives,' she said, 'but it's people like Wilders who polarize society and make us feel estranged. He says he sees a lot of integration problems in the Netherlands. The sad truth is that he himself contributes to them too.'

The umbrella organization of the Jewish community in the Netherlands, CJO, released a statement on Friday expressing a similar view.

'The film is counterproductive,' the CJO statement said. 'The expressions about Jews originating from the Koran, and referred to in the movie, demonstrate that some Muslims have horrific ideas about Jews and also indoctrinate children with such ideas. However, the way Fitna portrays reality polarizes society.'

Meanwhile, Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende said he was 'proud' of Dutch Muslims and praised their calm reactions following the film.

The Dutch parliament is due to discuss the film on Tuesday.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/europe/features/article_1397356.php/Anti-Islam_film_fails_to_provoke_Dutch_Muslims

maybe the dutch muslims feel as if they cause enough problems? one doesnt protest something he feels as true.

Mr. Spock: "perhaps the slap around is yours, for mixing the two without me saying so, a?"

Well then I'll own up to it. Without throwing all criticism and conspiracy-spinning about the US and Israel together, I don't see how you can reasonably suggest that the wildest 9-11 conspiracy-theories get as much advocacy here as islamophobia.

Sam: "I think the Dutch Muslims are setting a great example."

That's interesting, and encouraging. Maybe a this over-the-top Islamophobic propaganda will reveal its ridiculousness more than it will incite raw emotions. I hope so, but I'm still waiting for the aftershocks.

so you posted it here to override Asguard . how lovely:rolleyes:. :D


Actually I posted it here because someone asked for a link to it and I knew where it was. SAM had no dealing in having me post this or else I probably would not have. As for it being banned, I don't know about that as yet.

Mr. Spock: "perhaps the slap around is yours, for mixing the two without me saying so, a?"

Well then I'll own up to it. Without throwing all criticism and conspiracy-spinning about the US and Israel together, I don't see how you can reasonably suggest that the wildest 9-11 conspiracy-theories get as much advocacy here as (for example) Islamophobia.

arent we clever.

they get a lot of attention, or at least used to. even if they didnt as much as i claim, blaming the US and israel for provoking them, isnt that all much better.

another path to take the responsibility away from the perpetrators. from a superior position i presume.

I just saw Fitna on youtube.

I think ALL Muslims should broadcast it on their blogs and websites.

I certainly will.

Its an excellent Dutch anti-Islam film. :cool:

Weren't you arguing that it shouldn't be broadcasted just a few weeks ago? Or am I imagining things (again)?

its funny posting a thread on fitna in a forum filled with people who think 911 was an inside job, or either a mossad(zionist) doing.

hello spocky

i trust you are ok

pls can provide proof of this accusation

~~~~~~~~
cheers
zak

Weren't you arguing that it shouldn't be broadcasted just a few weeks ago? Or am I imagining things (again)?

That was before I saw it. I think it should be freely broadcast.

Its already on youtube, but it would help if they broadcast it on all television channels.

cosmictraveler: "Actually I posted it here because someone asked for a link to it and I knew where it was. SAM had no dealing in having me post this or else I probably would not have. As for it being banned, I don't know about that as yet."

This issue would be a good opportunity for clarifying what we consider unacceptably offensive, or excessively disruptive around here.

If a piece of blatant propaganda were introduced in a complimentary fashion here, and a hateful rabble were raised around it, I like to think that it will not go unchallenged around here by general members and by the moderators. There is a difference between discussing a hate-mongering phenomenon, and participating in it. It's not always distinct, and we shouldn't leap to conclusions, but that's where I think we should draw the line.

hello spocky

i trust you are ok

pls can provide proof of this accusation

~~~~~~~~
cheers
zak

the ever so "nice" ZAK

hey hows it going troopers


SO there you go, i have not been on sciforums for a while and today i have spent a little time on here and a lot of what i have read is anti- SAm stuff and accusations fo thsi and that and blah blah blah,..

Pls tell me what SAm has done so wrong cos i think she is great


Things is getting real nasty in places and i sense a snitch mentality which is not nice too, even the might Geoff has been banned cos he typed one too many s's talk about pedantic..

thank goodness Count Zero is not around cos if i had called him, count dooku someone would ahve snitched and i woudl ahve got banned - i hope not anyway!!!

And in the words of Tim Simenon

i'm outta here.........Peace

Zak

SAM little patron.

so how is "steve fucking mccleran" is doing this days? :rolleyes:

i thought the mods decided its forbidden to open a thread on this.

"Mods"? No. Not at all. There are three active mods in the political fora and the decision to "not" allow it was decided by one. I will stand by that decision until we can come to a better consensus between the three of us and the supreme leadership of this website.

IMHO, it belongs in politics and this discussion should go on there.

i think that if there is no double standard in sci fi forum, this thread should be deleted and SAM should be reported to plazma, just like it would happen to any of us.

Why should it be reported, what has happened that is so bad? A topic was posted by SAM? Though I share your scepticism about everything that SAM does, I can't say she's done anything wrong here. I mean, this is a free thought of her's and it is a film... so it kind of belongs here... ish.

so you posted it here to override Asguard . how lovely:rolleyes:

ill bet if i have done that ill get reported

Stop complaining. And, no you wouldn't have been reported if the subject matter fit in the new forum you posted it in.

its funny posting a thread on fitna in a forum filled with people who think 911 was an inside job, or either a mossad(zionist) doing.

Really? Because I know a lot of people in this forum, and I can only name two-or-three people who truly believe that. Some think that there was collaberation and some think that there were "other" factors that were covered up, but few I know think it was an inside job.

~String

Mr. Spock: "[9-11 conspiracy-theorists] get a lot of attention, or at least used to. even if they didnt as much as i claim, blaming the US and israel for provoking them, isnt that all much better."

But there's a difference. Just like there is a difference between criticizing Muslim radicals and individual firebrands, as opposed to conflating Islam with terrorism.

cosmictraveler: "Actually I posted it here because someone asked for a link to it and I knew where it was. SAM had no dealing in having me post this or else I probably would not have. As for it being banned, I don't know about that as yet."

This issue would be a good opportunity for clarifying what we consider unacceptably offensive, or excessively disruptive around here.

If a piece of blatant propaganda were introduced in a complimentary fashion here, and a hateful rabble were raised around it, I like to think that it will not go unchallenged around here by general members and by the moderators. There is a difference between discussing a hate-mongering phenomenon, and participating in it. It's not always distinct, and we shouldn't leap to conclusions, but that's where I think we should draw the line.

i wonder if you would feel the same about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWF2nLs0M_g&eurl=http://forum.bgu.co.il/index.php?showuser=2904

it will be a piece of documentary then would it not:rolleyes:

That was before I saw it. I think it should be freely broadcast.

Its already on youtube, but it would help if they broadcast it on all television channels.

Why? Your average Joe can't tell bullshit apart from reality when it comes to Islam. For the knowledgeable, the film will be a weak, boring display. For the uneducated, it will be (the only) source of information. The last thing the world needs is more Islamophobic cockgobblin' pricks.

Mr. Spock: "[9-11 conspiracy-theorists] get a lot of attention, or at least used to. even if they didnt as much as i claim, blaming the US and israel for provoking them, isnt that all much better."

But there's a difference. Just like there is a difference between criticizing Muslim radicals and individual firebrands, as opposed to conflating Islam with terrorism.

a difference yes. instead of blaming it directly on israel, blaming it on israel in an indirect approach. its even worse, because the first is very easy to debunk.

"Mods"? No. Not at all. There are three active mods in the political fora and the decision to "not" allow it was decided by one. I will stand by that decision until we can come to a better consensus between the three of us and the supreme leadership of this website.

IMHO, it belongs in politics and this discussion should go on there.



Why should it be reported, what has happened that is so bad? A topic was posted by SAM? Though I share your scepticism about everything that SAM does, I can't say she's done anything wrong here. I mean, this is a free thought of her's and it is a film... so it kind of belongs here... ish.



Stop complaining. And, no you wouldn't have been reported if the subject matter fit in the new forum you posted it in.



Really? Because I know a lot of people in this forum, and I can only name two-or-three people who truly believe that. Some think that there was collaberation and some think that there were "other" factors that were covered up, but few I know think it was an inside job.

~String

that sure explain why every second thread i make as a response for SAM threads on jews and israel get locked or either moved, while hers get a vivid attention. :D

or is it that the broad population agrees with her?


After lissioning to the comments by the PM of the Nethlands and others including the social justice commissioner of australia and a repersentive of the muslim council as well as the guy who made the movie i have decided that this movie consitutes hate speach. I also feel it will add nothing to discussion on this site because even he has said it says nothing that is not already on the public record which means it would serve no purpose here but to victomise muslims on this site

There fore any threads linking to the movie or discussing it will be deleted and concidered to be over riding a mods edit and will be refered directly to plazma and james

Why? Your average Joe can't tell bullshit apart from reality when it comes to Islam. For the knowledgeable, the film will be a weak, boring display. For the uneducated, it will be (the only) source of information. The last thing the world needs is more Islamophobic cockgobblin' pricks.

Thats why I said Muslims should see the film. Clearly, there is a need for dialogue, unity and reform in Muslims and nothing brings people together than stuff like this film.

Its the same reason I would advocate all Jews to see the Der ewige Jude for instance.

Thats why I said Muslims should see the film. Clearly, there is a need for dialogue, unity and reform in Muslims and nothing brings people together than stuff like this film.

Its the same reason I would advocate all Jews to see the Der ewige Judefor instance.

the eternal jew? funny to hear that from someone who actually believes in it.

Have you seen it?

Have you seen it?

i think that opera vid is better. :D

the ever so "nice" ZAK

:
Spocky, Hi - thank you for your response

suprise suprise
eeerr thanks for answering my question........................:rolleyes:



SAM little patron.
:

err there was no need to post another post from my other thread into this one. But then again you can if you want who cares, not sure what you mean by it all though, pls elaborate if you may


so how is "steve fucking mccleran" is doing this days? :rolleyes:

i dont have a clue.. hopefully he is either sucking a dead mans dick or impaling his back side on a cactus...
~~~~~~
Out
Zak

i think that opera vid is better. :D

I think you'll find it interesting. Apparently they quote a lot of stuff like this:

For example, in Deuteronomy it is written: "Unto a foreigner thou mayest lend upon usury, but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury."

The benediction of the Sabbath: Praise to the Lord who has set apart the holy Israelites from other people. The heathen, who do not keep the law, will be destroyed.

And this:

This parasitical Jewish race is responsible for most international crime. In 1932, Jews, only 1 per cent of the world's population, accounted for ... 47 per cent of crooked games of chance -

Not to mention Taqiyya

It is an intrinsic trait of the Jew that he always tries to hide his origins when he is among non-Jews.

and matters of assimilation:

Jewry is most dangerous when it is allowed to meddle in the most sacred things of a people -- in its culture, religion and art, and pass judgement on it.

Its interesting to see the patterns of propaganda.

i dont have a clue.. hopefully he is either sucking a dead mans dick or impaling his back side on a cactus...
~~~~~~
Out
Zak

now that is the ZAK im talking about :D

I think you'll find it interesting. Apparently they quote a lot of stuff like this:



And this:

Not to mention Taqiyya



Its interesting to see the patterns of propaganda.

yes indeed, most muslims i met beileve that, or they beileve zionism is taking over the world. some of them surf here, other blame the zionist from europe in the palestinian problem.

they even accept the hate towered those zionist because they are considered foreigners and claimed the arabs wanted a bi national state from the beginning. without any proof of course.

yes indeed, most muslims i met beileve that, or they beileve zionism is taking over the world. some of them surf here, other blame the zionist from europe in the palestinian problem.

they even accept the hate towered those zionist because they are considered foreigners and claimed the arabs wanted a bi national state from the beginning. without any proof of course.

yes, its interesting to see the patterns in propaganda.;)

the ever so "nice" ZAK



SAM little patron.

so how is "steve fucking mccleran" is doing this days? :rolleyes:

now that is the ZAK im talking about :D

hey spocky,
not sure i get what you mean?? well of course thats me???

why what do you think of Stev Muthafuckin macleran


~~~~~~~~~~
out zak

Thats why I said Muslims should see the film. Clearly, there is a need for dialogue, unity and reform in Muslims and nothing brings people together than stuff like this film.

I was thinking of how to counter your statement, only to realize that I truly can't. I guess I do agree with this. However, this doesn't mean that millions of uneducated non-Muslims worldwide won't see the video and formulate a misinformed opinion about Islam.

yes indeed, most muslims i met beileve that, or they beileve zionism is taking over the world. some of them surf here, other blame the zionist from europe in the palestinian problem.

they even accept the hate towered those zionist because they are considered foreigners and claimed the arabs wanted a bi national state from the beginning. without any proof of course.
how many muslism do you meet and know spocky>??

yes, its interesting to see the patterns in propaganda.;)


who knows, maybe its the same people who claim the holocaust happened because jews lived separately?

no wait, that wasnt right. :rolleyes:

how many muslism do you meet and know spocky>??

too many.

too many.

really?? what do you quantify as too many???

I was thinking of how to counter your statement, only to realize that I truly can't. I guess I do agree with this. However, this doesn't mean that millions of uneducated non-Muslims worldwide won't see the video and formulate a misinformed opinion about Islam.

Are these the ones who think for themselves? Or weren't already having negative opinions about Muslims before?

Are these the ones who think for themselves? Or weren't already having negative opinions about Muslims before?

or having bad opinion on the parasitic jews. going uncriticized by some.

Are these the ones who think for themselves? Or weren't already having negative opinions about Muslims before?

A mix of both, but likely more of the latter. Why?

Sam, I think you have pointed out a most fitting context for examining Fitna, with a comparison to Der ewige Jude. Sources like Google video include fitting disclaimers about the views expressed in propaganda films like that, and so should we.

If the member posting a link to Fitna in whirled events had done so with a little tact and sensitivity, the discussion may have continued there.

There's a certain protocol for bringing the most odious specimens into our fair laboratory for examination. It would be better if sloppy handling were corrected with minimal hubbub, so we can resume sciforums research into the perspectives vying to shape our future.

Asguard does not moderate Free Thoughts, invert does.

you're sleek on jurisdiction...:cool:

Sam, I think you have pointed out a most fitting context for examining Fitna, with a comparison to Der ewige Jude. Sources like Google video include fitting disclaimers about the views expressed in propaganda films like that, and so should we.

If the member posting a link to Fitna in whirled events had done so with a little tact and sensitivity, the discussion may have continued there.

There's a certain protocol for bringing the most odious specimens into our fair laboratory for examination. It would be better if sloppy handling were corrected with minimal hubbub, so we can resume sciforums research into the perspectives shaping our future.

really? in fitna the assertion on muslims were made on actual footage, where in the NAZI propaganda machine the jews are compared to mice who needs to be exterminated.

its funny how it was SAM who agreed with kadark that jews are parasites makes the comparison.

hypocrisy knows no bounds when it comes to the religious hate for jews.

There you are, draqon- the culprit!

Do you endorse Fitna? If not, do you understand the tactful necessity for presenting it unambiguously?

Mr. Spock: "really? in fitna the assertion on muslims were made on actual footage,"

If you don't mind holding your nose to review some of Der Ewige Jude via Google Video, you'll see the same techniques of editing actual footage into a bizarre and hateful thesis.

There you are, draqon- the culprit!

Do you endorse Fitna? If not, do you understand the tactful necessity for presenting it unambiguously?

me? the culprit? not at all ... I think that even though Fitna depicts truth, this truth is very selective and seems to suggest that all Muslims are that violent. I mean they got problems with population of Muslims in Netherlands? its their problem, they should solve it another way than blaming all sins on each other. I think it was right that this film was banned.

Mr. Spock: "really? in fitna the assertion on muslims were made on actual footage,"

If you don't mind holding your nose to review some of Der Ewige Jude via Google Video, you'll see the same techniques of editing actual footage into a bizarre and hateful thesis.

so fitna compares muslims to rats?
interesting. where?

if someone made a documentary on the NAZIS and their hateful speech and propaganda would you still compared it to Der Ewige Jude?

i remember mostly seeing only footage filmed by muslims themselves.

draqon: "Fitna depicts truth"

You're wrong. The false message of Fitna is that Islam is the source of terrorism such as the 9-11 attacks.

"I think it was right that this film was banned."

Am I mistaken, or did you post the link to Fitna? That's what I remember, along with a similar ambiguous endorsement as you have just posted again. I don't want to misunderstand you, so please clarify.

draqon: "Fitna depicts truth"

You're wrong. The false message of Fitna is that Islam is the source of terrorism such as the 9-11 attacks.

"I think it was right that this film was banned."

Am I mistaken, or did you post the link to Fitna? That's what I remember, along with a similar ambiguous endorsement as you have just posted again.

Like I said it depicts selective truth. Should people see it? yes. Is it truly correct? No

Spock's analogy with Nazi's well fits here.

draqon: "Fitna depicts truth"

You're wrong. The false message of Fitna is that Islam is the source of terrorism such as the 9-11 attacks.

"I think it was right that this film was banned."

Am I mistaken, or did you post the link to Fitna? That's what I remember, along with a similar ambiguous endorsement as you have just posted again. I don't want to misunderstand you, so please clarify.

so you excuse the actions of 911? give me a break.

Mr. Spock: "if someone made a documentary on the NAZIS and their hateful speech and propaganda would you still compared it to Der Ewige Jude?"

Not if it were the least bit objective. However, if a documentary were fabricated with the thesis that Christianity was the impetus behind the Holocaust, the comparison might be valid.

Do you really have such difficulty discerning between obvious propaganda and history?

"so you excuse the actions of 911?"

Not in the least. Do you really have difficulty with the difference between provocation and justification?

These are such extreme examples, that it's easy to suspect you're only trying to distract. But if you do have trouble recognizing these differences, we're a long way from shared or comparable perception.

draqon: "it depicts selective truth. Should people see it? yes."

Then why did you assert in Post 67 "I think it was right that this film was banned.""

"Is Fitna truly correct? No"

That's less ambiguous, but can still be interpreted as elusive. Do you agree, or disagree with Fitna's thesis that Islamic scripture and tradition motivates or incites terrorism, draqon?

draqon: "it depicts selective truth. Should people see it? yes."

Then why did you assert in Post 67 "I think it was right that this film was banned.""

"Is Fitna truly correct? No"

That's less ambiguous, but can still be interpreted as elusive. Do you agree, or disagree with Fitna's thesis that Islamic scripture and tradition motivates or incites terrorism, draqon?

Let me put it to you this way, all religious scriptures incite some sort of action on behalf of that religion followers and when those actions confront other religious believes...we got confrontations. People call it terrorism, wars, jihad...whatever...its confrontation.

Do I see that Quaran incites terrorism from what I seen in the movie? Yes it does seem that way. Is the movie lying to me that those are the exact words of Quaran? Maybe...I just don't know. But if that is what Quaran did say, than yes it does incite violence.

but guess what this Fitna movie isn't clean either, rather than stating that those verses are followed by extremists of this religion only...it claims that all muslims think and feel that way and thus will do that which extremists do. I do not agree with this...but I might be wrong.

If you had put that much thought into your post when you linked the movie, it would have been less controversial. I doubt I would have reacted critically if that had been the case. It's worthwhile to discuss the real basis for concerns over whether Islamic scripture really is terroristic within context and reasonable interpretation.

I'm only relying on my memory of a glance, since Asquard deleted the thread- so excuse me if I'm being harsh, draqon. My impression was that you posted the video in a vaguely supportive way, without any disclaimer as to its blatantly offensive nature- that's what I would consider distasteful, in the same way as I would if someone posted a link to Der Ewige Jude with an ambiguous appeal to check it out.

hypewaders...I havent seen the actual video when I posted it.

That might have been worth mentioning.

Sam, I think you have pointed out a most fitting context for examining Fitna, with a comparison to Der ewige Jude. Sources like Google video include fitting disclaimers about the views expressed in propaganda films like that, and so should we..

Coincidentally someone here on the forum had pointed a link to nazi propaganda during a previous discussion on Wilders and I happened to read about that kind of propaganda. The part about using real footage from archives and editing it to only reflect a biased viewpoint. So when I saw the movie this morning, I immediately saw the kind of movie it was meant to be.

I wish we could coin a term for video-montage propaganda-schlock. Since video editing and mixing has become available to nearly anyone with advances in IT, we'll probably see a prodigious expansion of video analogous to the cheap political tracts that are still sometimes handed out in the streets by charismatic fringe groups. 70 years ago, producing something like Der ewige Jude took considerable resources. Now, a pimply-faced kid can do some impressive video editing with a laptop.

People who are eager to promote the outrageous may soon revel in an era of easy attention, when technology enables almost anyone to turn out dramatic video screeds- even while a wide and gullible audience still lacks critical sensibilities when it comes to edited video imagery. When an acquaintance of mine collaborated in producing the film Loose Change, I was completely dumbfounded at the seriousness and scope of the reception his work of pure crap came to bask in around the world.

Is it reasonable to hope that a glut of shlocumentaries will stimulate critical viewing and thinking, more than it will add to ignorance and mob mentalities?

If video garbage can cause more people to increasingly stop and question what they see in video productions, it might eventually cause popular demand to compel even major US networks to desist from dishing out sensationalized junk, in lieu of audience-informing news.

I really don't know whether to be dismayed or encouraged. It seems like the nutters may enjoy the lead in amateur documentaries, for as long as shock and sensationalism hold more appeal in video media than responsibility and reason.

I've never encountered anyone who has admitted to initially lapping up something like Fitna or Loose Change, to later see through the hype. Nobody likes to admit being played for a sucker, and the biggest ideological suckers tend to dig in their heels. The debunking of multiplying shlocumentaries that find large gullible audiences may get tedious in the years ahead. A new era of samizdat video propaganda may stir up considerably more confusion and high emotion than clarity.

Wrt the movie, I think its a sign of the change that has long been awaited in Islam

I foresee very positive things coming out of it.

Nothing like exposing things to sunlight to see them for what they really are. :)

Here is another positive step:

Security stepped up as German theatre breaks taboo by staging Satanic Verses (http://arts.guardian.co.uk/theatre/news/story/0,,2269165,00.html)

German Muslim leaders called for calm yesterday. "This material has not lost its ability to offend," said Aiman Mazyek, general secretary of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany. "But freedom of opinion and the arts is of a high value and most Muslims are against censorship."

S.A.M. : "I foresee very positive things coming out of it."

I so hope you're right.

"Nothing like exposing things to sunlight to see them for what they really are."

What is different now, from the days of Der Ewige Jude, when hateful propaganda found its mark without being debunked?

In the USA, it seems to me that there is a ready audience that will find Fitna fitting in the War on Terror / Defend Holy Israel crowd. Do you expect that criticism such as we express here has become robust enough to ward off the virus?

S.A.M. : "I foresee very positive things coming out of it."

I so hope you're right.


Me too. :)
"Nothing like exposing things to sunlight to see them for what they really are."

What is different now, from the days of [i]Der Ewige Jude[/b], when hateful propaganda found its mark without being debunked?

In the USA, it seems to me that there is a ready audience that will find [i]Fitna[/b] fitting in the War on Terror / Defend Holy Israel crowd. Do you expect that criticism such as we express here has become robust enough to ward off the virus?


No I don't. However, there are some things that are significantly different. One is that the world is much smaller and people are more interdependent than ever. A second is that western economy is on the decline and people will soon have much bigger things to worry about than Muslims. A third is that all this criticism is creating interest and discussion in Islam, including among Muslims under theocracy and dictatorship. Nothing unites a family more than an outsiders criticism.

I'd advise you to buy sukook bonds. ;)

Here's to all of us getting our houses in order.

But just in case... Does the Malaysian or Dubai Sukook look more promising to you?

I'd stay away from teh Middle East. :D

They still have to learn how to compete

I can't wait to see that new movie!

Not in the least. Do you really have difficulty with the difference between provocation and justification?

These are such extreme examples, that it's easy to suspect you're only trying to distract. But if you do have trouble recognizing these differences, we're a long way from shared or comparable perception.

then define the two and explain the difference http://www.desidabba.com/img/eating.gif

too bad, its moved to politics. well lets see how ausguard will handle this now.

how many muslism do you meet and know spocky>??

too many.

really?? what do you quantify as too many???

Hi Spocky,

hows it going

iN light of your comment about knowing too many muslims as above - it would be nice if you could elleborate too what you mean by "too many" and the context, as per my post above

thank you for your response in advance

~~~~~~~~
out zak

Well...saw it, finally, since I had nothing better to do.

Well, actually I did, but I saw it anyway and I can't take it back.

...wasn't really that bad. No worse than Martin Luther tacking demands to a church door, which were really quite reasonable overall, and no worse a film than gets made about the naughty Westerners. Why such a stink? They weren't having a go at Mohammed or muslims themselves, although they did put the onus on muslims for change.

They removed the movie from Live Leak.

Well...saw it, finally, since I had nothing better to do.

Well, actually I did, but I saw it anyway and I can't take it back.

...wasn't really that bad. No worse than Martin Luther tacking demands to a church door, which were really quite reasonable overall, and no worse a film than gets made about the naughty Westerners. Why such a stink? They weren't having a go at Mohammed or muslims themselves, although they did put the onus on muslims for change.

I agree, hopefully this will (at least indirectly) help bring about change to moderate the radical muslims. Perhaps the best thing that came out of this though, is some of Europe seems to have finally put aside political correctness to face reality. Although some radical leftists probably don't like this, because it doesn't help their allies (the terrorists) that are doing dirty work for them against the "evil" "right-wing" west.

They removed the movie from Live Leak.


Another victory for the radicals. :bawl:

It was moved to this new site.

http://search.live.com/video/results.aspx?q=Fitna&setlang=en-US&setflight=0&docid=1594396573750&FORM=TVVR4

I agree, hopefully this will (at least indirectly) help bring about change to moderate the radical muslims. Perhaps the best thing that came out of this though, is some of Europe seems to have finally put aside political correctness to face reality. Although some radical leftists probably don't like this, because it doesn't help their allies (the terrorists) that are doing dirty work for them against the "evil" "right-wing" west.

You're kidding right? This film is an excellent motivation and excuse for extremists on both sides.

Sock Puppy: "Why such a stink? They weren't having a go at Mohammed or muslims themselves"

If we were to compile a shock video of every atrocity that Israel and the USA have committed, interspersed with Bible verses and right-wing evangelist rants, then the message would be analogous. If a film conflated atrocities and fiery sermons with evangelical Christian scriptures, like "every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" the message would be very much the same. A very similar provocative thesis can be advanced that the Bible, Moses, Jesus, and selected contemporary leaders command and control the faithful into terrorism, just as it can be insinuated that Islam is terrorism.

Now maybe such an exposition would cause some Christian and Jewish introspection, and for moderates to further expand their majority, as Sam seemed to have been speculating that Fitna will encourage in the Muslim world (edit: reading the post above, I'm not so sure anymore what you meant, Sam). Maybe watching snuff-films motivates pornography fans to some higher morality. I'm not so sure. I suspect that the provocation could stir up more emotion than reason, because that is the most frequent result of religious provocations.

It is my opinion that religions are often hijacked for political and revolutionary purposes. I suspect that the violent power-plays underlying religious cover are so dominant, that the results would be the same even if the religions of the world were somehow interchanged. Given the recent of the Mideast, with such corrupt regimes oppressing and such powerful international interests meddling, the intensifying desperation and resentment would be certain to boil over into radicalism couched in any religion- even if the most prevalent religion were a different one.

We are allowing ourselves to be distracted by the manipulators of religions, if we look to religion as the source of terrorism. Ruthlessness and violence are even more ancient, and more primitive than any religion. A back-and-forth culture war about whose traditions are bloodier will never be constructive. I'm all for mainstream Christians and Muslims and Jews, and practitioners of any faith promoting moderation and non-violence within their own faiths and communities. But in the sound and fury of intercultural broadsides like Fitna there is at least as much fear and loathing stirred up, as there is a calming opportunity for reason, understanding and reform.

If we were to compile a shock video of every atrocity that Israel and the USA have committed, interspersed with Bible verses and right-wing evangelist rants, then the message would be analogous.

Here is one. Anyone know how to insert Bible verses instead of anti-imperialism rhetoric?:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdRaCrfG92E

You're kidding right? This film is an excellent motivation and excuse for extremists on both sides.

So far I haven't seen westerners strapping bombs around their bodies and blowing up hundreds of muslims, nor have I seen westerners kidnapping and beheading innocent muslims.
So what do you think the "extremist" westerners are going to do ?

We already know what the extremist muslims are doing, we see it almost daily in the news. Bombing here, bombing there, kidnapping here, beheading there.....they deliberately target innocent civilians as a policy, while the west targets the killers themselves.

Many western nations have nuclear weapons; have they even thought about using them on muslim nations ? I doubt it. If they did, it would be out of retaliation for something devastating that happened to the west.
On the other hand, if some of the radical muslim groups seen in this film had nuclear weapons, what do you think they would do ? I tell you what, it wouldn't be painting flowers on the weapons.....

^^^is everyone in the west this naive?

Sock Puppy: "Why such a stink? They weren't having a go at Mohammed or muslims themselves"

If we were to compile a shock video of every atrocity that Israel and the USA have committed, interspersed with Bible verses and right-wing evangelist rants, then the message would be analogous. If a film conflated atrocities and fiery sermons with evangelical Christian scriptures, like "every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" the message would be very much the same. A very similar provocative thesis can be advanced that the Bible, Moses, Jesus, and selected contemporary leaders command and control the faithful into terrorism, just as it can be insinuated that Islam is terrorism.
.

Name a few attrocities the US and Israel have deliberately committed as a policy in recent years, I'm curious.

^^^is everyone in the west this naive?

and as usual SAM shows her humble and balanced opinion on the west.

^^^is everyone in the west this naive?

What's "naive" about this ? :

So far I haven't seen westerners strapping bombs around their bodies and blowing up hundreds of muslims, nor have I seen westerners kidnapping and beheading innocent muslims.
So what do you think the "extremist" westerners are going to do ?

We already know what the extremist muslims are doing, we see it almost daily in the news. Bombing here, bombing there, kidnapping here, beheading there.....they deliberately target innocent civilians as a policy, while the west targets the killers themselves.

Many western nations have nuclear weapons; have they even thought about using them on muslim nations ? I doubt it. If they did, it would be out of retaliation for something devastating that happened to the west.
On the other hand, if some of the radical muslim groups seen in this film had nuclear weapons, what do you think they would do ? I tell you what, it wouldn't be painting flowers on the weapons.....

Cazzo: "Name a few attrocities the US and Israel have deliberately committed as a policy in recent years, I'm curious."

Please stay curious, and listen to the outrage in the Mideast. Google up the Arab response to events in Qalqilya, Kafr Qaasim, Khan Yunis, Sabra, Shatilla, Haditha, Fallujah over the years. Learn of the Iraqi and Arab response to the innocent casualties of yesterday's and today's airstrikes in Iraq. Follow events in Gaza, the West Bank, and Jerusalem.

"So far I haven't seen westerners strapping bombs around their bodies and blowing up hundreds of muslims"

That's part of the great disconnect between USAmericans and residents of the Mideast. We have a state structure that exerts violence in our name. The oppressed of the Mideast do not. They have various, and even more unaccountable terrorists representing them in the blood market our headlines are dominated by. But as always in lopsided fights, the butcher's bill is much higher on the weaker side. Casualties due to terrorism are a fraction of the innocent deaths resulting from state-sponsored violence. But the rage is proportional to the loss, whatever the culture, religion, or politics.

I just saw Fitna on youtube.

I think ALL Muslims should broadcast it on their blogs and websites.

I certainly will.

Its an excellent Dutch anti-Islam film. :cool:

This was a real piece of propaganda, If i were an english teacher, I'd show this along with Fox news for analysis.

Cazzo: "Name a few attrocities the US and Israel have deliberately committed as a policy in recent years, I'm curious."

Please stay curious, and listen to the outrage in the Mideast. Google up the Arab response to events in Qalqilya, Kafr Qaasim, Khan Yunis, Sabra, Shatilla, Haditha, Fallujah over the years. Learn of the Iraqi and Arab response to the innocent casualties of yesterday's and today's airstrikes in Iraq.

"So far I haven't seen westerners strapping bombs around their bodies and blowing up hundreds of muslims"

That's the trigger for the great disconnect between USAmericans and residents of the Mideast. We have a state structure that exerts violence in our name. The oppressed of the Mideast do not. They have various, and even more unaccountable terrorists representing them in the blood market our headlines are dominated by. But as always in lopsided fights, the butcher's bill is much higher on the weaker side. Casualties due to terrorism are a fraction of the innocent deaths resulting from state-sponsored violence. But the rage is proportional to the loss, whatever the culture, religion, or politics.

You haven't named one attrocity the US and Israel have deliberately committed......
Please do, to back up your claims.

Cazzo: "Name a few attrocities the US and Israel have deliberately committed as a policy in recent years, I'm curious."

Please stay curious, and listen to the outrage in the Mideast. Google up the Arab response to events in Qalqilya, Kafr Qaasim, Khan Yunis, Sabra, Shatilla, Haditha, Fallujah over the years. Learn of the Iraqi and Arab response to the innocent casualties of yesterday's and today's airstrikes in Iraq. Follow events in Gaza, the West Bank, and Jerusalem.


did arabs ever butchered anyone hypewaders?

Cazzo: "You haven't named one attrocity the US and Israel have deliberately committed......
Please do, to back up your claims."

That isn't the subject of this thread. I've already given you some keywords to Google, and that's as far as I'll take it here. If you would really like some education on the subject of US/Israeli oppression in this venue, then I suggest you start a separate thread soliciting it.

Mr. Spock: "did arabs ever butchered anyone hypewaders?"

Obviously Arabs have butchered other people and each other. I don't know of any broad classification of humans who have not.

how many muslism do you meet and know spocky>??

too many.

really?? what do you quantify as too many???

Hi Spocky,

hows it going

iN light of your comment about knowing too many muslims as above - it would be nice if you could elleborate too what you mean by "too many" and the context, as per my post above

thank you for your response in advance

~~~~~~~~
out zak


Spocky,

i would appreciate some sort of a response to the above.


and as usual SAM shows her humble and balanced opinion on the west.


espically in light of the above comment

cheers
Zak

Cazzo: "You haven't named one attrocity the US and Israel have deliberately committed......
Please do, to back up your claims."

That isn't the subject of this thread. I've already given you some keywords to Google, and that's as far as I'll take it here. If you would really like some education on the subject of US/Israeli oppression in this venue, then I suggest you start a separate thread soliciting it.

Oh, but it is, because some people in this tread have tried equating westerners "as bad" as radical muslim terrorists.
I think because you can't find one attrocity the US and Israel have deliberately committed, you're resorting to your response here.

Mr. Spock: "did arabs ever butchered anyone hypewaders?"

Obviously Arabs have butchered other people and each other. I don't know of any broad classification of humans who have not.

other humans? interesting. if you want to us to look back, why dont go back a little further to see what arabs did to this "other" humans, and the consequences of their actions. mmmm............

Spocky,

i would appreciate some sort of a response to the above.





espically in light of the above comment

cheers
Zak

why are you a pain in the ass?

That isn't the subject of this thread.

Cazzo: "Oh, but it is, because some people in this tread have tried equating westerners "as bad" as radical muslim terrorists."

No, this thread is a discussion of the significance of the short film Fitna. Diverting it into a lengthy tit-for-tat comparison of atrocities is tangential.

"I think because you can't find one attrocity the US and Israel have deliberately committed, you're resorting to your response here."

You're making hasty assumptions, considering our respective post counts. Click on a member's name, and you can review that member's post history. You can also use the forum search tool to review past threads here. If you take a little time, you'll learn that I'm not being evasive in this conversation, but selective.

"arent you funny"

The insinuation that I am avoiding discussion of US and Israeli atrocities here because there is a dearth of them is particularly disingenuous on your part, Mr. Spock. We've discussed such things elsewhere, you and I. Let's just demure from this disruptive behavior in class, and return to discussing today's film, boys and girls.

That isn't the subject of this thread.

Cazzo: "Oh, but it is, because some people in this tread have tried equating westerners "as bad" as radical muslim terrorists."

No, this thread is a discussion of the significance of the short film Fitna. Diverting it into a lengthy tit-for-tat comparison of atrocities is tangential.

lol

arent you funny

More on the film:

Singapore has joined international condemnation of the anti-Qur'an film Fitna made by the Dutch far-right MP Geert Wilders. A government spokesperson said freedom of expression gave no one the right to insult a religion or race. Malaysia's former Prime Minister Mahatir Mohamad has urged Muslim around the world to boycott Dutch products.

Earlier the film was denounced by United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and countries including Iran, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Pakistan and Jordan. Reactions in other Muslim countries were mild.

The Dutch government has distanced itself from a strong condemnation issued by EU chair Slovenia. According to Slovenia, the film incites hatred, which in the Netherlands is an offence punishable by law. The Dutch government claims the film only aims to hurt people´s feelings.

The controversy surrounding the film will be discussed today during an EU meeting in Slovenia.

Be interesting to see what the EU meeting results in.

The UN and EU have already deemed it pointless and "that the only good that the film does is incite further hatred and intolerance."

everyone fear islam. little by little islam will take over the world.

That isn't the subject of this thread.

Cazzo: "Oh, but it is, because some people in this tread have tried equating westerners "as bad" as radical muslim terrorists."

No, this thread is a discussion of the significance of the short film Fitna. Diverting it into a lengthy tit-for-tat comparison of atrocities is tangential.

You yourself on the previous page stated :
"If we were to compile a shock video of every atrocity that Israel and the USA have committed, interspersed with Bible verses and right-wing evangelist rants, then the message would be analogous" :eek:

So all the sudden, since you can't provide "1" example backing up your claim, now it's "off the topic" :confused:

everyone fear islam. little by little islam will take over the world.

I don't fear islam, but I do fear the radicals seen in that film, and the left-wing radicals that back them up.

I don't fear islam, but I do fear the radicals seen in that film, and the left-wing radicals that back them up.

well not everyone everyone. but enough people fear islam so they cant stand up to the atrocities committed in the name of islam.

i mean, i prefer to have peace and all, but im a realist. sometimes war is the only option. and make no mistake, it is a terrible choice.

Cazzo: ' "So all the sudden, since you can't provide "1" example backing up your claim, now it's "off the topic" '

That's right. So far as I'm concerned, it's tangential to the topic here. As I already related, it's often discussed in other threads. If you'll review what I wrote above, there are some keywords for what you're asking about. Google away, and/or start a separate thread on the subject if you like.

I'm going flying right now, but I'll check back and "back up my claim" later in an appropriate venue, if you're seriously in the dark about it.

dude....:crazy:

why are you a pain in the ass?

why cant you answer simple questions...

why do you know / have meet "too many muslims"????

Please explain what you mean by that???????


everyone fear islam. little by little islam will take over the world.


get a grip Spocky pls

More fallout from Fitna:

Dutch employers association VNO-NCW demanded that legislator Geert Wilders compensate Dutch businesses abroad which have been harmed by his controversial film Fitna, chairman Bernard Wientjes said in an interview with the daily Het Financieele Dagblad on Saturday.

Malaysia's former prime minister Mahathir Mohamad called for a boycott of Dutch business after Malaysian authorities condemned the film, Dutch media reported.

Earlier, around 30 Jordanian newspapers, radio stations and websites launched a bid for a boycott of Dutch businesses.

Several Arab countries are due to discuss Wilders' film Fitna at the Arab summit in Damascus this weekend.

'If they decide to boycott Dutch businesses, it will harm Dutch exports. Companies like Shell, Philips and Unilever are easily recognizable as Dutch companies,' Wenties told Het Financieele Dagblad.

'I do not know how rich Geert Wilders is, and whether he has a good insurance. But if there is a boycott, we will investigate whether we can hold Wilders accountable.'

the saudis are positive they are doing the right thing here?

instead of letting it go away they are making an even bigger fuss then it is.

dumb dumb dumb

why cant you answer simple questions...

why do you know / have meet "too many muslims"????

Please explain what you mean by that???????





get a grip Spocky pls

spocky, pls answer the question above..

or have you lost your tongue on this one!!!????????????

spocky, pls answer the question above..

or have you lost your tongue on this one!!!????????????

stop trolling.

why cant you answer simple questions...

why do you know / have meet "too many muslims"????

Please explain what you mean by that???????





get a grip Spocky pls

stop trolling.

if you answered the question i wouldnt keep asking...

why dont you want to answer the question.

asking a question is not trolling

go on report me for trolling then??

if you answered the question i wouldnt keep asking...


so stop trolling.

so stop trolling.

i am not trolling - you answer the question or report me!!!

Zakariya...if someone is ignoring a question they are most likely not going to answer it. So just skip it. Repeating it like a parrot will not lead to an answer. By saying that Mr.Spock has "met too many Muslims" he implies that he has seen many Muslim people and because of what he has seen of them displeases him and thus he wishes not to see them anymore by setting a limit to himself that he has seen too many of them. An analogy to this would be a soldier on a war in Afghanistan who has seen to many dead children and blood...and now does not want to see it anymore.

i am not trolling - you answer the question or report me!!!

im in a good mood. i have no problem to report you.

Zakariya...if someone is ignoring a question they are most likely not going to answer it. So just skip it. Repeating it like a parrot will not lead to an answer.

draqon - pls look thrugh the thread if you would my good sir.. then you may know why i would like to get to the bottom of it..

obviosuly it could bore you if you did so dont worry if you dont

draqon - pls look thrugh the thread if you would my good sir.. then you may know why i would like to get to the bottom of it..

obviosuly it could bore you if you did so dont worry if you dont

stop whining will ya

draqon - pls look thrugh the thread....

Zakariya04 I edited my post for explanation, please see.

im in a good mood. i have no problem to report you.

excellent go on report me

i'm in a good mood too - my company made record turnover and profit last year our best year so far!!!!:D:D:D

excellent go on report me

i'm in a good mood too - my company made record turnover and profit last year our best year so far!!!!

im in a good mood because this was so far my best semester :D

maybe ill continue t a master degree:D

consider yourself reported

im in a good mood because this was so far my best semester :D

maybe ill continue t a master degree:D

consider yourself reported


good lad spocky,

i have 2 masters degrees:D

report me again for every post you dont like of mine

good lad spocky,

i have 2 masters degrees:D

report me again for every post you dont like of mine

fine with me :rolleyes:

the saudis are positive they are doing the right thing here?

instead of letting it go away they are making an even bigger fuss then it is.

dumb dumb dumb

I think boycotting products is a good idea.:p

e.g. the boycott of Danish products

http://www.fahad.com/pics/boycott_denmark_lrg.jpg

which is still ongoing in Gulf supermarkets.

What is more amusing is stuff like this:

EU warns Iran on Danish boycott (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/07/cartoon.denmarktrade/index.html)

EU warns Saudi Arabia over Danish boycott (http://www.theparliament.com/EN/News/200601/75a2942b-db6c-4d5a-be2e-636c2692f287.htm)

Apparently "freedom" of expression is a one way street.

" the Spock report"
Spock continues to disappoint Spock fans everywhere but being loyalist Spockists ( Spockonians/Spocksters/Spockjocks etc.) they cannot bring themselves to shitcan Mr. Spock.
This unenviable duty is abdicated to Mr. Spud who has zero qualms in telling Mr. ( sic Spock) to Fuck ( sic, Spud) Awf!

I think boycotting products is a good idea.:p

e.g. the boycott of Danish products

http://www.fahad.com/pics/boycott_denmark_lrg.jpg

which is still ongoing in Gulf supermarkets.

What is more amusing is stuff like this:

EU warns Iran on Danish boycott (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/07/cartoon.denmarktrade/index.html)

EU warns Saudi Arabia over Danish boycott (http://www.theparliament.com/EN/News/200601/75a2942b-db6c-4d5a-be2e-636c2692f287.htm)

Apparently "freedom" of expression is a one way street.

i think its dumb. but what the hell....10 years from now no one will remember the saudis.

" the Spock report"
Spock continues to disappoint Spock fans everywhere but being loyalist Spockists ( Spockonians/Spocksters/Spockjocks etc.) they cannot bring themselves to shitcan Mr. Spock.
This unenviable duty is abdicated to Mr. Spud who has zero qualms in telling Mr. ( sic Spock) to Fuck ( sic, Spud) Awf!

now youre just being mean :bawl:

i think its dumb. but what the hell....10 years from now no one will remember the saudis.

Highly unlikely. They have established themselves quite well in business world.

Highly unlikely. They have established themselves quite well in business world.

with oil. what happens when that runs out?

with oil. what happens when that runs out?

Like I said...business ties...social services...resorts.

Like I said...business ties...social services...resorts.

you need money for that-their ONLY source of income is oil.

you need money for that-their ONLY source of income is oil.

currently, but that income is being switched to business.

fine with me :rolleyes:

so how many times you report me then spocky?????

it would be a lot eaiser if you just answered the question or explain why you dont want to answer it??

i cant wait for a moderator to ask me to explain why you reported me!!!!

i think its dumb. but what the hell....10 years from now no one will remember the saudis.

Its not just the Saudis, I know Muslims in places as far flung as the US who stopped buying all products that are Danish.

Arla foods in the UAE for example lost almost 95% of its sales and closed shop in many locations or used repackaging to avoid detection as Danish. They were losing $1.6 million a day.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/10/AR2006021001821.html

And why do you think its dumb? Don't you remember the Jewsih boycott of German products before WWII?

Its not just the Saudis, I know Muslims in places as far flung as the US who stopped buying all products that are Danish.

Arla foods in the UAE for example lost almost 95% of its sales and closed shop in many locations or used repackaging to avoid detection as Danish. They were losing $1.6 million a day. And why do you think its dumb? Don't you remember the Jewsih boycott of German products before WWII?

for someones who hates jews and blame them for the holocaust you sure do a lot of comparison towered them.

thats almost funny.

for someones who hates jews and blame them for the holocaust you sure do a lot of comparison towered them.

thats almost funny.

pls post proof of this vile accusation spocky???????????????

pls post proof of this vile accusation spocky???????????????

she said it plenty of times. i dont need to qoute it after she admitted it more then once. just because you were out of the glooms for so much times doesnt mean you need to but it you know.

she even said the palestinians hate the zionists because they are immigrants from europe, and agreed with kadark who said jews are parasites.


:p

she said it plenty of times. i dont need to qoute it after she admitted it more then once. just because you were out of the glooms for so much times doesnt mean you need to but it you know.

she even said the palestinians hate the zionists because they are immigrants from europe, and agreed with kadark who said jews are parasites.


:p

prove it spocky prove it????

prove it spocky prove it????

i dont recall all those threads, im sure SAM here can help you. just search kadark parasites and see SAM response.

the blaming of jews and immigrants from europe thingy was said ssssooooooo many times, i really dont need to prove it.

i dont recall all those threads, im sure SAM here can help you. just search kadark parasites and see SAM response.

the blaming of jews and immigrants from europe thingy was said ssssooooooo many times, i really dont need to prove it.

i am just lookign for thee posts where sam says she hates jews

i am just lookign for thee posts where sam says she hates jews

she said jews lived separately which caused the holocaust, she said that palestinians hate jews because they came from europe, she even said the gunman who killed those 8 kids in jerusalem did it because a rabbi molested him, and so many other examples...

He probably figures the parasite comments suffice.

Hey! I thought posting about this movie was a bannable offense??!!! Is there more than one movie?

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1798073&postcount=1
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1798074&postcount=1

It depends. Grey area @ scimuslim.

i dont recall all those threads, im sure SAM here can help you. just search kadark parasites and see SAM response.

the blaming of jews and immigrants from europe thingy was said ssssooooooo many times, i really dont need to prove it.

she said jews lived separately which caused the holocaust, she said that palestinians hate jews because they came from europe, she even said the gunman who killed those 8 kids in jerusalem did it because a rabbi molested him, and so many other examples...

so she didnt say she hates jews - thank you spocky

so she didnt say she hates jews - thank you spocky

verbally? no. but agreeing with kadark jews are parasites is enough-after all he insists he doesnt hate jews.

verbally? no. but agreeing with kadark jews are parasites is enough-after all he insists he doesnt hate jews.

ok good -0k so you lied by sayign that Sam says she hates jews!!!!

and then you call me a liar!!! what does that make you i wonder..

I am going now

have a good weekend

ok. give SAM a kiss for us.

ok good -0k so you lied by sayign that Sam says she hates jews!!!!

and then you call me a liar!!! what does that make you i wonder..

I am going now

have a good weekend

so you find it ok kadark said jews are parasites :rolleyes:

shocking. :p

http://www.fahad.com/pics/boycott_denmark_lrg.jpg

The sign (bottom right) says :
"Sorry, We don't [ ]
products made in Denmark."

They could be slipping any word in there.

In Arabic it says "Fucking Sell".

Actually, I htink it says "No Breakfast Patsies pastries"

I think the Red Sign says "Are you Phlemish Finnish?"

Mish halaal.

Khalasni, sharmoota.

so you find it ok kadark said jews are parasites :rolleyes:

shocking. :p

spocky, when did i say that????? pls retract this vile statement unless of course you can find a post where i have said or agreed with the statement.

pls stop trying to disparage me.

oh and btw you still havent explained what you mean by @knwoing too many muslims

Sock Puppy: "Why such a stink? They weren't having a go at Mohammed or muslims themselves"

If we were to compile a shock video of every atrocity that Israel and the USA have committed, interspersed with Bible verses and right-wing evangelist rants, then the message would be analogous.

Well, those videos occur already. Has it incited Israelis and Americans to murderous rampage? Should the Catholic authorities have responded to Luther with pillage and atrocity? (I know they did, but should they have?) The charge has been given and it is for others to decide what to do with it. 'Reform' would be a good suggestion. Or have a little introspection.

^^^is everyone in the west this naive?

Do you actually think such videos encourage violence from Westerners? That strikes me as naive.

"So far I haven't seen westerners strapping bombs around their bodies and blowing up hundreds of muslims"

That's part of the great disconnect between USAmericans and residents of the Mideast. We have a state structure that exerts violence in our name.

But in the name of geopolitical advantage (a game all nations play), not in the name of religious outrage or superiority.

Sock Puppy: "Do you actually think such videos encourage violence from Westerners?"

Didn't you ever notice how the culture-war rhetoric reaches highest levels in the USA right before new shock and awe? Brown people (overwhelmingly non-terrorist) die in tens of thousands in every cycle.

"That strikes me as naive."

It is naïve, considering how the disproportionate killing on either side of the insane "Global War on Terrorism/Islamofascism" incites terrorism.

We have a state structure that exerts violence in our name.

SP: "But in the name of geopolitical advantage (a game all nations play), not in the name of religious outrage or superiority."

The USA is wrecking millions of lives and fortunes in the Mideast and Afghanistan, in the name of citizens like me, and you if you're USAmerican; in the name of US political superiority; and in the name of Manifest US/Israeli Destiny. There will be blowback. In fact, it's already arriving. If you think the fall of the Dollar and US economy is unrelated to our shameful foreign policy, and our national irresponsibility with our most defining international treaties and our own Constitution, then you have much to learn.

Which we all do, because I didn't protest enough before this trainwreck was set up with big obvious lies.

Sock Puppy: "Do you actually think such videos encourage violence from Westerners?"

Didn't you ever notice how the culture-war rhetoric reaches highest levels in the USA right before new shock and awe? Brown people (overwhelmingly non-terrorist) die in tens of thousands in every cycle.

Yes, but not because people insult God.

We have a state structure that exerts violence in our name.

SP: "But in the name of geopolitical advantage (a game all nations play), not in the name of religious outrage or superiority."

The USA is wrecking millions of lives and fortunes in the Mideast and Afghanistan, in the name of citizens like me, and you if you're USAmerican

Yes, but as I said this is something all nations do and isn't religious in any specific way. Anyway, I'm not US American, or at least not in the sense that they might mean in South Carolina, or at least not yet. Might be soon though! Assuming that bloody H1B ever goes in. Buh.

Sock Puppy: "Do you actually think such videos encourage violence from Westerners?"

Didn't you ever notice how the culture-war rhetoric reaches highest levels in the USA right before new shock and awe? Brown people (overwhelmingly non-terrorist) die in tens of thousands in every cycle.

"That strikes me as naive."

It is naïve, considering how the disproportionate killing on either side of the insane "Global War on Terrorism/Islamofascism" incites terrorism.


I know, God forbid we bomb a country full of brown people. Doesn't matter that they flew airplanes into our buildings, and blow themselves up every day in markets. No, because they're brown, we're not allowed to. It's off-limits.

Believe it or not, I agree that we have no business waging war over there. But not just because Iraq has nothing to do whatsoever with terrorism. Actually, I don't want us over there because I know we're losing American lives every day in that hellhole for no good reason. Brute force won't end terrorism. Well, short of killing everyone, that is.

But enough bellyaching over how many brown people die, and how none of them deserve it. No, the citizens don't, but how about you point your accusatory finger at the extremist groups that did provoke us? Better yet, let's ask the fine citizens of the Middle East why they can't get their heads out of the asses long enough to create a stable peace in the region on their own.

Oh, that's right, we can't. We can ask those questions, because no one in that region can be held accountable. It's not allowed. Only the United States and its allies are accountable. Don't get me wrong, I think Bush should hang, but don't place all the blame on him. I mean, he's probably the dumbest President this country has ever had, but he wouldn't have had an excuse if he wasn't provoked.

But enough bellyaching over how many brown people die, and how none of them deserve it. No, the citizens don't, but how about you point your accusatory finger at the extremist groups that did provoke us? What would the accusation be ? That they provoked us to kill a lot innocent people, destroy entire countries that had nothing to do with them, create networks of torture prisons, and put our military strategy and logistics in the hands of the major stockholders of Halliburton ?

Pretty damn effective strategy for wrecking us, if they actually planned it out that way. Better yet, let's ask the fine citizens of the Middle East why they can't get their heads out of the asses long enough to create a stable peace in the region on their own. To which they will respond: "Leave us alone and we will. We have before. " They might be wrong, of course - but there's no way to tell at the moment.

I completely agree with iceaura, so I'll just respond to other parts of your above post, JDawg:

"God forbid we bomb a country full of brown people. Doesn't matter that they flew airplanes into our buildings, and blow themselves up every day in markets. No, because they're brown, we're not allowed to. It's off-limits."

It's not off-limits, it's out of sight and out of mind, for most people I interact with in the USA. That doesn't mean that the pressure isn't building for more blowback, as the obscenely-disproportionate casualties, suffering, deprivations, insult, and anger mount.

"Brute force won't end terrorism. Well, short of killing everyone, that is."

That lesson still hasn't been adequately learned, judging by popular US media and sentiment. Neither has the lesson been learned to recognize incendiary propaganda. We in the USA will continue to be trapped in this downward juggernaut until we learn to better recognize and more assertively reject both military overkill (in Federal and New! Corporate packaging) and reactionary propaganda.

The culture-war rhetoric reaches highest levels in the USA right before new shock and awe? Brown people (overwhelmingly non-terrorist) die in tens of thousands in every cycle.

Sock Puppy: "Yes, but not because people insult God."

Where manipulators encourage religion as the rallying-point of outrage, the effect is the same. "God" (at least in name) becomes prominent in the cycle. Invocations of God are as prominent in US society as in the Mideast, but the channels and their superficial prominences differ. Nobody gets elected in the USA without professing faith, and no culture-wars are waged without deep, if often subliminal religious undertones.

"But in the name of geopolitical advantage (a game all nations play), not in the name of religious outrage or superiority."

The USA is wrecking millions of lives and fortunes in the Mideast and Afghanistan, in the name of citizens like me- and in your name, if you're USAmerican.

"this is something all nations do and isn't religious in any specific way."

There is no other contemporary nation wreaking such sustained havoc, and as flagrantly as the USA today. On both "sides" of it (as distortingly framed, the surreal West vs. "Islamofascism" diorama) religion seems hopelessly entangled. It's ostensibly quieter on the USAmerican side. But in the Bible Belt for example, there is a lot of belligerence that is wrapped up in often unspoken, but powerful dogma about assumed US and Israeli righteousness, and about the inevitability and necessity of unprecedented bloodbaths in the Mideast. The present US Administration relied heavily on an evangelical base in order to consummate their quiet Putsch. Just because you don't hear fundamentalist USAmerican Christians chanting "God is Great" (& on Our Side, etc) loudly in the streets does not mean that they aren't passionately thinking it. USAmericans have an equal propensity for political manipulations of religion as do the most angered and turbulent Muslim nations of the world. We show it differently, but certainly not with any less violence.

Just because you don't hear fundamentalist USAmerican Christians chanting "God is Great" (& on Our Side, etc) does not mean that they aren't passionately thinking it.

So you know what people are thinking? Maybe that is part of your problem.

John99: "So you know what people are thinking?"

Not always- but often, yes I do. Especially when it comes to people I've lived among. If you listen especially carefully to plain-speaking people , it isn't hard to learn what they're thinking. Try it.

ok. Does God speak to you too?

No, not in any sense that I'm aware of.

hmmm. i know there are fundamentalist Christians in U.S and there are also fundamentalists of other religions but i have never met a fundamentalist Christian in almost 30 years of living in U.S. They sure seem to get blamed for everything though.

Do you talk to God yourself.

"i have never met a fundamentalist Christian in almost 30 years of living in U.S."

For the sake of this topic, and in hopes of adhering somewhat to it, I hope we can agree to consider USAmerican Christians who believe that a Mideast Armageddon is pending, and that the USA must fight on the side of modern Israel in it. Let's consider these as our "fundamentalists". There are millions of such believers, making up a considerable voting and volunteering block. They influence other USAmericans who do not share their fundamentalist religious beliefs, too. You can easily find a church in any sizeable US community where you can meet such believers, believing in what amounts to a new Crusade.

"They sure seem to get blamed for everything though."

I think they deserve some blame for abandoning reason sufficiently to be dangerously manipulated.

"Do you talk to God yourself."

No.

"i have never met a fundamentalist Christian in almost 30 years of living in U.S."

For the sake of this topic, and in hopes of adhering somewhat to it, I hope we can agree to consider USAmerican Christians who believe that a Mideast Armageddon is pending, and that the USA must fight on the side of modern Israel in it. Let's consider these as our "fundamentalists". There are millions of such believers, making up a considerable voting and volunteering block. They influence other USAmericans who do not share their fundamentalist religious beliefs, too. You can easily find a church in any sizeable US community where you can meet such believers.

"They sure seem to get blamed for everything though."

I think they deserve some blame for abandoning reason sufficiently to be dangerously manipulated.



There are also millions of Muslims, millions of Jews, millions of Hindus and millions of non-religious in U.S. Certainly the ones who may believe that "a Mideast Armageddon is pending, and that the USA must fight on the side of modern Israel in it." are in the minority and honestly i have never even heard of this except for conspiracy sites.

You can easily find a church in any sizeable US community where you can meet such believers.

If you say so. I doubt that is true though.

Where manipulators encourage religion as the rallying-point of outrage, the effect is the same. "God" (at least in name) becomes prominent in the cycle. Invocations of God are as prominent in US society as in the Mideast, but the channels and their superficial prominences differ. Nobody gets elected in the USA without professing faith, and no culture-wars are waged without deep, if often subliminal religious undertones.

But of course, Iraq isn't a culture war. It's about oil, as you've said. Culture has nothing to do with it. Again, Americans are not going to try and massacre muslims over being called "pigs" and "apes". Nor do crowds take to the streets even after airplanes strike skyscrapers. It isn't the same phenomenon at all.

"But in the name of geopolitical advantage (a game all nations play), not in the name of religious outrage or superiority."

The USA is wrecking millions of lives and fortunes in the Mideast and Afghanistan, in the name of citizens like me- and in your name, if you're USAmerican.

Any nation, I think you'll find, would be equally happy to wreck lives in any number of nations to achieve its ends. The Americans merely happen to be more proficient at it than most. It's deplorable, but not in any special category of deplorableness; nor, moreover, does it touch on the original subject, which is the Fitna video. Let us leave this issue aside now and return to the subject.

USAmericans have an equal propensity for political manipulations of religion as do the most angered and turbulent Muslim nations of the world. We show it differently, but certainly not with any less violence.

Disagreed. The US invades different nations for oil, or profit, or votes, but you won't see a response on the order of the cartoon riots in America, or anywhere else in the Western world. If you have evidence otherwise, then please post it; but until then let us also leave this issue aside and return to the point.

John99: "Certainly the ones who may believe that "a Mideast Armageddon is pending, and that the USA must fight on the side of modern Israel in it." are in the minority and honestly i have never even heard of this except for conspiracy sites."

You can easily find a church in any sizeable US community where you can meet such believers. It's a popular notion (http://www.leftbehind.com/channelbooks.asp?channelID=228).

John99: "If you say so. I doubt that is true though."

Don't take my word for it- look around. You're ignoring a massive and hugely influential segment of US opinion- the fabled One Nation Under God.