http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6047020.stm


The BBC's Lars Bevanger in Oslo says this year's winner caught most there by surprise.

Many commentators had expected an award to someone involved in peace talks, our correspondent says.


***************


What is this a joke or what?

Many have said a muslim would get the nobel peace prize this year for diplomatic reasons, they seem to have struggled to find a muslim involved in peace talks that have brought peace & security, so this year they have searched high & low for a muslim who excells in other fields in this case giving out loans, many have said some of his loan rates have been very high, somewhat making him a bit of a shylock in some cases.

I wonder will the president of HSBC bank or standard chartered bank quailify next year too.

I was under the impression great people like nelson mandela & desmond tutu win the nobel, not shylocks.

Whats your view is this a joke?

Good us muthafucking muslims must be quite peacefull then.....

fuckall duiffeerence it will make anyway but fucking good for him
#

Its sodding pathetic - just goes to show how the award has now been de-valued

Awarding it to Henry Kissinger on the other hand.....

Might as well give it Abu Hamza next year

He would probably drop it.

Awarding it to Henry Kissinger on the other hand.....

Or arafat...

He would probably drop it.

LOL :D

The man who won it looks like he deserved it Vincent. Maybe you'd rather Tony "Five Wars" Blair won it instead.

vincent:

Your implication that the Nobel prize winner is dishonest amounts to libel.

If you have no evidence of dishonesty, I expect you to retract your allegations.

Thankyou.

vincent:

Your implication that the Nobel prize winner is dishonest amounts to libel.

If you have no evidence of dishonesty, I expect you to retract your allegations.

Thankyou.

James i am always willing to back up any statement i make, i am not in the propaganda business i deal only in facts.


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061014/LOCAL17/610140459/1012



But Grameen is not without critics, many of whom focus on the bank's high interest rates. Its business loans carry a rate of 20 percent, significantly higher than the 10 percent to 15 percent charged by commercial banks.

Reports routinely circulate in Bangladesh's media of people being forced to borrow from second or third sources, often at higher interest rates, to repay Grameen loans.




***************


So james here we have this nobel peace winner charging 20% interest rate in some case almost twice the rate of local banks, if that is not loan shark mentality what is?

And why are the local bank president who charge half as much interest rates not getting the nobel, are they catholic or buddhist so dont qualify this year as it is known that a muslim was always going to win this year.







http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a5Gs51olgRbM&refer=home


In his will, Nobel said the prize should be awarded to ``the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between the nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace.''








James after reading the above do you feel this years nobel winner fits one thing in nobels will, i think not.



James i originally heard about his excessive rates on bbc world news, however there website does not always print word for word what there newscasters say.

James i have no problem with a muslim winning the nobel, the king of jordan would be a good choice or the afgan prez, however i dont consider a loanshark charging twice the rates of banks a worthy choice, neither does nobels will.

"In 2002 a report in the Wall Street Journal said the bank was running into trouble because of increased competition and a fall in the bank's loan repayment rate.

Mr Yunus responded by telling the BBC that the bank was in its "strongest position ever".

"Micro-credit is something which is not going to disappear... because this is a need of the people," he said.

"Whatever name you give it, you have to have those financial facilities coming to them because it is totally unfair... to deny half the population of the world financial services."

Now Mr Yunus hopes that the Nobel peace prize will provide a huge boost to Grameen."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6047234.stm

Vincent,
I noticed two things about your quote from the Indystar article. Those were two paragraphs at the end of a lengthy piece that was positive about the bank and its effects. Of course the bank has its critics. There is no person, or institution on the planet that does not get criticised. The article appears to have added these observations in order to provide a balanced report. I think all you can take from it is that, yes, they charge high interest rates. Am I right in saying this is your main objection?

Secondly, if that is your objection, have you not overlooked the fact that this bank is about micro-credit. It gives very small loans. Loans so small, that regular banks would have no interest (oops! was that a pun) in taking them on. Now I don't know a lot about business, but I do know that it probably takes about the same time to process a loan for $50 as one for $5000. So the overhead cost of these loans is much greater as a percentage. It seems reasonable that they should charge a larger fee to ensure they can cover the administrative costs fully. Had you considered that aspect?

Vincent,
I noticed two things about your quote from the Indystar article. Those were two paragraphs at the end of a lengthy piece that was positive about the bank and its effects. Of course the bank has its critics. There is no person, or institution on the planet that does not get criticised. The article appears to have added these observations in order to provide a balanced report. I think all you can take from it is that, yes, they charge high interest rates. Am I right in saying this is your main objection?

Secondly, if that is your objection, have you not overlooked the fact that this bank is about micro-credit. It gives very small loans. Loans so small, that regular banks would have no interest (oops! was that a pun) in taking them on. Now I don't know a lot about business, but I do know that it probably takes about the same time to process a loan for $50 as one for $5000. So the overhead cost of these loans is much greater as a percentage. It seems reasonable that they should charge a larger fee to ensure they can cover the administrative costs fully. Had you considered that aspect?


You make it sound so mary poppins for our nobel winner!!!!!!


Let me educate you on the daily wage in his country, well its one or two dollars a day, so a loan of $200 dollars represents over 3 months pay to them.

Now if you applied that same principle to someone in europe 3 months pay would represent nearly $5000 dollars hardly a trifle amount.


So your small micro loans are quite substantial to a person living in his country, to prove the point further many of his clients have had to get another loan ith a 3rd party to pay our nobel winners bank back.

Remember my friend always look at the big picture, not just the pretty ones people paint for you, i live in asia thailand, i know the daily wage throughout asia & my friend it is a joke, in thailand it is $5 dollars a day, but thai people get paid a damn site more than people in india or bangladesh.

You make it sound so mary poppins for our nobel winner!!!!!!.I'll take that as some sort of weird compliment.:)
Let me educate you on the daily wage in his country, well its one or two dollars a day, so a loan of $200 dollars represents over 3 months pay to them..Thank you. I was not familiar with the specifics of Bengali wages. I imagined them to be lower than the norm here in Indonesia.

I agree that $200 would be a substantial sum. My understanding is that many of the loans are for smaller amounts than this, while those loans that are of this size are given to small groups of individuals.

Interesting as your comments are you still haven't addressed my central point. It costs the same to process a small loan as a medium sized loan. If the bank is not to go out of business it needs to charge more interest, or to levy a flat fee for processing. They have chosen to go with a higher interest rate.

I don't see what you find unwelcome about this. The bank could not function without these higher interest rates and therefore all the people who have benefited from such loans would still be trapped in poverty. Are you saying you do not believe that micro-credit is a valuable idea?

I'm just trying to understand your objection to what seems to be a productive and useful idea that is benefiting many thousands of poor individuals. Do you wish these people to be trapped in poverty for ever?

He's not a loan shark lending money to destitute people who have little hope of acquiring enough to pay it back. He's a venture capitalist lending money to people who have a plan to leverage it and create capital, thus increasing the GDP and wealth of the country. 20 percent is a quite reasonable rate of return on venture capital, in fact it's rather low.

This is the way of the future. The concentration of wealth and capital that characterized the industrial era will dissipate as information technology lowers the threshold for entering many business sectors. Internet-based businesses themselves, whose primary commodity is information, have a ridiculously low startup cost, even relative to the cost of living in Bangla Desh. Children are launching them. But even businesses that deal with tangible goods like clothing and crafts can operate at a volume level that was impractical in the days before computer-aided manufacturing made it possible to "manufacture" one object and the United Parcel Service made it feasible to deliver it.

Not everyone is an opulent American who can raise a few hundred dollars to start a business or to take advantage of a one-time opportunity by sticking his debit card into an ATM and getting a cash advance. A need exists to finance small operations efficiently and Grameen satisfies it.

Sure he is making a profit on his enterprise and perhaps it's a sign of the paradigm shift that it's possible to make a profit by doing something that improves the world. Considering that socialism proved to be a dismal, stifling failure except in small nations with relatively homogeneous populations who think of themselves as one big family, isn't this a refreshing new paradigm to live under? I don't see the need to be so negative about it, it's a real sign of hope.

James i am always willing to back up any statement i make, i am not in the propaganda business i deal only in facts.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061014/LOCAL17/610140459/1012

But Grameen is not without critics, many of whom focus on the bank's high interest rates. Its business loans carry a rate of 20 percent, significantly higher than the 10 percent to 15 percent charged by commercial banks.

Reports routinely circulate in Bangladesh's media of people being forced to borrow from second or third sources, often at higher interest rates, to repay Grameen loans.

***************
So james here we have this nobel peace winner charging 20% interest rate in some case almost twice the rate of local banks, if that is not loan shark mentality what is?

And why are the local bank president who charge half as much interest rates not getting the nobel, are they catholic or buddhist so dont qualify this year as it is known that a muslim was always going to win this year.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a5Gs51olgRbM&refer=home

In his will, Nobel said the prize should be awarded to ``the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between the nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace.''

James after reading the above do you feel this years nobel winner fits one thing in nobels will, i think not.

James i originally heard about his excessive rates on bbc world news, however there website does not always print word for word what there newscasters say.

James i have no problem with a muslim winning the nobel, the king of jordan would be a good choice or the afgan prez, however i dont consider a loanshark charging twice the rates of banks a worthy choice, neither does nobels will.

Hello Vincent - Excellent post !!!!

In my opinion the Nobel Peace Prize is now no longer the prestige coveted prize it once was.

Giving this Nobel Peace Prize to that money lender subdues the award to the equivalent of giving the Victoria Cross to a loanshark.

What is so peaceful about a money lender??????

....equivalent of giving the Victoria Cross to a loanshark.

Stu, did you even read Fraggles post?

Stu, did you even read Fraggles post?



Yes Nick - It's a form of Islamic Banking and nothing more - read up on it!!

http://www.hsbcamanah.com/hsbc/amanah_banking

With the development of viable Islamic alternatives to conventional finance, Muslims are increasingly able to participate in the financial world without bearing an economic penalty.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its not a new idea

And Vincents joke about the HSCB getting the Nobel prize next year might not be far from the truth

Oh dear oh dear.

This isn't about banking that conforms to sharia law. It is about micro-credit.

Tell me something Nick - Do you honestly believe that a form of banking has anything to do with the Nobel Peace prize

As Vincent pointed out

"In his will, Nobel said the prize should be awarded to ``the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between the nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace.''

The jerk who got the Nobel Prize has done nothing of the above

Oh dear oh dear.

This isn't about banking that conforms to sharia law. It is about micro-credit.


Where do you think he got the idea from

Oh dear oh dear. This isn't about banking that conforms to sharia law. It is about micro-credit.Yes, Nick is right. You guys just aren't getting it. If someone had done this in Ecuador in accordance with the Ancient Code Of The Inca it would have been just as great. It's not about which laws it runs under. It's about the fact that it works in a pre-industrial country in a post-industrial world.

Hummm - well I cant help but wonder what the previous winners of the Noble Peace prize think of this years winner

Interesting as your comments are you still haven't addressed my central point. It costs the same to process a small loan as a medium sized loan. If the bank is not to go out of business it needs to charge more interest, or to levy a flat fee for processing. They have chosen to go with a higher interest rate.

I don't see what you find unwelcome about this. The bank could not function without these higher interest rates and therefore all the people who have benefited from such loans would still be trapped in poverty. Are you saying you do not believe that micro-credit is a valuable idea?

I'm just trying to understand your objection to what seems to be a productive and useful idea that is benefiting many thousands of poor individuals. Do you wish these people to be trapped in poverty for ever?



"Interesting as your comments are you still haven't addressed my central point. It costs the same to process a small loan as a medium sized loan. If the bank is not to go out of business it needs to charge more interest"



Ok i will answer your bug up your ass question, ok the guy or gal processing the loan is payed about 2 or 3 dollars aday, he has a photocopied 2 cents piece of paper for the the applicant to sign, no credit cheques as anyone is given a loan, so he or she spends 30 minutes tops imputting the data on the computer, bank manager spends 5 minutes looking at data, say ok give them the cash.


Just how expensive to you think this loan application process is???????????????

You are dealing with bank staff who get paid pathetic wages by western standards 1/70th of a western daily wage.


All your comparisons seem to relate to western costs & overheads, in bangladesh the bank presz can have a hundred staff working for him, AND ALL HE IS PAYING OUT IS 1 OR 300 DOLLARS A DAY FOR THEM, a bank manager in the uk can have 2 staff & he is paying out $300 dollars aday for them.


Please relate to the country you are talking about, & stop fantasizing.

This guy is not worthy of the nobel, i cant think of a more pathetic canditade other than bin lid.

As a muslim won last years nobel too, i wonder if buddhists spent all year burning flags & attacking embassies worldwide, & set off thousands of explosions in a year, will they win next year??????????????

And what did last years muslim winner do to deserve it too, the UN guy who is suppose to be stopping nuclear proliferation, what a bang up job he is doing pakistan nuclear india nuclear, north korea nuclear, iran going nuclear, pakistan nuke scientist selling his secrets to every whore in the world who will listen to him.


I am sick of people getting honours they dont deserve all because the powers that be are trying to humour the muslim world.

The king of jordan or the afghan prez, the only 2 muslims who deserve a nobel.

But these guys are hated by muslims & left wingers why?
Because they have a brain, there intelligent & thats dangerous in the middle east, its also means your a puppy dog of the west, yeah having intelliegence & the ability to think without religon clouding your judgement is really a western disease, i can see why muslims despise these 2 muslims.

You know something Vince

Perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye - it could be propaganda

It just might be a way of introducing the word "peace" to muslims - I mean most of them in the ME have probably never heard of the word before. Now all of a sudden they hear of a muslim getting a prize for peace. If they are intelligent enough they might even try to understand what the word means.

vincent, you're racist....

muslims are not a race

Why cant Vincent disagree with the choice? Jeez you guy's are anal.

It's not a matter of disagreement. He's discriminating against the guy just because he is a muslim. It's completely illogical. Being a muslim doesn't make you unworthy of recognition. So when he says the guy didn't deserve the prize just because he was a muslim, vicent is being racist.

Racism is discrimination against any group of people- and that's exactly what he is doing.

Ok i will answer your bug up your ass question, .I'm not sure what is generating your hostility. I think this is a discussion board. Right? You've posted some thoughts and I am trying to understand your thinking.
You seem to be ignoring something that devalues your basic argument. I am trying to determine why you are ignoring this. Surely we can discuss this without you going all emotional on me.:cool: (That's what husbands are for.)
Now, most of your post falls into the class "I'm pissed off and I don't care who knows it." I've looked back through a few of your posts and I see you don't think much of Islam, or muslims. That's fine. You are entitled to your viewpoint. I am not debating that with you. I am trying to discuss your claim that a 20% interest rate is excessive.
Your argument appears to be:
"Ok i will answer your bug up your ass question, ok the guy or gal processing the loan is payed about 2 or 3 dollars aday, he has a photocopied 2 cents piece of paper for the the applicant to sign, no credit cheques as anyone is given a loan, so he or she spends 30 minutes tops imputting the data on the computer, bank manager spends 5 minutes looking at data, say ok give them the cash.
Just how expensive to you think this loan application process is???????????????
You are dealing with bank staff who get paid pathetic wages by western standards 1/70th of a western daily wage.Yet this simply fails to answer my question. Do you accept that it costs pretty much the same to process a loan for $50, as for $500, or $5000? Regular banks give out loans that are large compared with those issued by banks involved in micro-credit. The likes of Grameen has processing overheads which represent a larger percentage of the loan than is the case with a regular bank.
Do you think you could just state whether you agree with that statement, or not, without throwing another tantrum. (;) just kidding.) If you don't agree with it, could you explain why.
Thanks.

You know something Vince. Perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye - it could be propaganda. It just might be a way of introducing the word "peace" to muslims - I mean most of them in the ME have probably never heard of the word before. Now all of a sudden they hear of a muslim getting a prize for peace. If they are intelligent enough they might even try to understand what the word means.Actually the standard word used in greeting throughout the Arabic-speaking region is Salaam. It means "peace." It's the same word as Hebrew Shalom, with a couple of phonetic shifts since the two languages separated.

Actually the standard word used in greeting throughout the Arabic-speaking region is Salaam. It means "peace." It's the same word as Hebrew Shalom, with a couple of phonetic shifts since the two languages separated.



Now all they have to do is understand the meaning of the word

At least it's better then the US, where the word "peace" is just a myth... :rolleyes:

It's not a matter of disagreement. He's discriminating against the guy just because he is a muslim. It's completely illogical. Being a muslim doesn't make you unworthy of recognition. So when he says the guy didn't deserve the prize just because he was a muslim, vicent is being racist.

Racism is discrimination against any group of people- and that's exactly what he is doing.


If you had bothered to read this thread you would have seen in 2 of my posts that i dont have a problem with a worthwhile muslim winning the nobel, i listed 2 such muslims the afghan prez, and the king of jordan, 2 muslims who are very peaceful, & have tried to bring peace between muslims & other faiths.


A muslim shylock is not worthy of the nobel, if you think otherwise than you miss the meaning of giving the nobel to a man of peace, a loan giver is not a man of peace.

I have no doubt some of his loans have been to criminals, who maybe by guns with the loan money, how do you figure buying arms contributes to the spirit & meaning of the nobel prize which is to reduce arms around the world.

For a man who seeks the truth you seem to know nothing of it.

You are retarded.

Poverty causes violence. You eliminate poverty, violence is gone. The guy was decreasing poverty. Therefore, he was making the world more peaceful.

Think, p-lease!

You are retarded.

Poverty causes violence. You eliminate poverty, violence is gone. The guy was decreasing poverty. Therefore, he was making the world more peaceful.

Think, p-lease!


Once again your truth is lacking, thailand is a poverty stricken country where the average wage is $5 dollars a day, in the 9 years of living here i have seen no crime, i have seen no violence, now if you compare brazil your country with thailand you will see the difference, brazil is also poverty stricken but it is the most violent place in the world, what is the difference very simple the buddhist religon teaches peace, & also that wealth is not important.

poverty does not cauase violence, people do & there mentality of violence, in a society & religon that teaches non violence, you will have very little violence.



"You eliminate poverty, violence is gone"

Why is bin lid violent he is a millionaire, why do drug lords around the world kill thousands each year, there millionaires too.

Violince is caused by people, who do not respect other humanbeings, people who cannot enjoy life for what it is, a chance to see this beutiful world for another day.

You my friend are guided by material wealth for happiness, & that is stupid beyound belief.

If you want to be happy try helping others you prat, instead of helping yourself to riches to get your false security of happiness.

Money stops violence, what stupidity, respect stops violence, respect for others, something you know nothing about.

I know who will be next up for the nobel prize!
For advancements in medical research and science.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele
http://history1900s.about.com/od/auschwitz/a/mengeletwins.htm

and then also same year for financial ingenuity and helping the people of the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron
:rolleyes:
Mediocrity requires aloofness to preserve its dignity.
Charles G. Dawes

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/charlesgd172698.html

Once again your truth is lacking, thailand is a poverty stricken country where the average wage is $5 dollars a day, in the 9 years of living here i have seen no crime, i have seen no violence, now if you compare brazil your country with thailand you will see the difference, brazil is also poverty stricken but it is the most violent place in the world, what is the difference very simple the buddhist religon teaches peace, & also that wealth is not important.
You are a retard. Brazil is one of the most peaceful countries in the world. We are know to be one of the most peaceful people. You say thailand has no violence? Well, look closely, because thailand is the world center of sex slavery. That's sound pretty peaceful to me...:bugeye:

poverty does not cauase violence, people do & there mentality of violence, in a society & religon that teaches non violence, you will have very little violence.
You are an idiot. There's a clear proven correlation between poverty and violence.

Why is bin lid violent he is a millionaire,
He has a purpose.

why do drug lords around the world kill thousands each year, there millionaires too.
That's how they earn and keep money, you retard.


You my friend are guided by material wealth for happiness, & that is stupid beyound belief.
I'm a buddhist.

You obviously don't know me... :rolleyes:

If you want to be happy try helping others you prat, instead of helping yourself to riches to get your false security of happiness.
Again, you are an idiot. I've helped many and I'm in the process of founding a society for that very reason. I've spoken about it before here some time ago. I've spoken with one_raven about it.

Here's a bit of it....

"Vision
We dream of a world where all children are happy, free and safe throughout their lives.


Mission
To actively pursue the well being of mankind through the establishment of global connections among people, the dissemination of our values and principles, and the democratic control of global resources.


Values and Principles
The Mind
Through integrity, excellence is achieved.
Through excellence, imperfection remains perfect.
Love heals all suffering and imperfection.
Unconditionally, it leads to complete peace.


The Heart
Where there is divide, there is war.
Where there is diversity, there is peace.
From the valuation of diversity, we bring unification.
The unification of all people leads to peace.


Goals
Eliminate poverty
Eliminate racism
Eliminate war
Eliminate suffering
Protect environment"


Money stops violence, what stupidity, respect stops violence, respect for others, something you know nothing about.
Once again, you are a retard. It's proven that poverty causes violence.

There's a clear proven correlation between poverty and violence.




Come on dude
do you realy think there is any point in debating this with anyone ?
Personaly, i concieve no logical progresion of debate with someone who rejects this principal.


Its like walking into a mosque with your gumboots on covered in pig shit eating a roasted pork leg and trying to explain its only meat and whats the big deal you just want to borrow the telephone to call your personal banker.

. Brazil is one of the most peaceful countries in the world. .


Ha ha ha ha - Now that proves you've lost the plot - idiot

Its like walking into a mosque with your gumboots on covered in pig shit eating a roasted pork leg and trying to explain its only meat and whats the big deal you just want to borrow the telephone to call your personal banker.




ROFLMFAO - THAT IS JUST BRILLIANT :D :D

Once again your truth is lacking, thailand is a poverty stricken country where the average wage is $5 dollars a day, in the 9 years of living here i have seen no crime, i have seen no violence,
First, NONE?!?! That's shocking to hear about any country, let alone one who's national past time is fighting. Thailand is where most really serious kickboxers will go to train, because you can actually make a living fighting there. How non-violent.

First, NONE?!?! That's shocking to hear about any country, let alone one who's national past time is fighting. Thailand is where most really serious kickboxers will go to train, because you can actually make a living fighting there. How non-violent.


So what you're saying is that we should stop all contact sports like Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Boxing, Wrestling, lets throw out Rugby and Ice Hockey too, and maybe we should ban Soccer and American Football while we're at it.

Yup - Sport is sooooo violent :

Poverty causes violence.


Yeah? - I dont remember the Ethiopians being a violence bunch :rolleyes:

So what you're saying is that we should stop all contact sports like Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Boxing, Wrestling, lets throw out Rugby and Ice Hockey too, and maybe we should ban Soccer and American Football while we're at it.

Yup - Sport is sooooo violent :

NOOOO!!! I'm saying that the sport is violent. Therefore, he must have seen some violence living there. The fact that it's so common could be the reason why he doesn't see much crime. I find it impossible that there isn't any. I have heard from others that it is much more peaceful than most places in the west. I'm not saying anything against violence that isn't regulated either though, just to be clear. I believe it is a healthy part of life.

NOOOO!!! I'm saying that the sport is violent. Therefore, he must have seen some violence living there. The fact that it's so common could be the reason why he doesn't see much crime. I find it impossible that there isn't any. I have heard from others that it is much more peaceful than most places in the west. I'm not saying anything against violence that isn't regulated either though, just to be clear. I believe it is a healthy part of life.

Every country has kick boxing even the uk, so what, its contact sports, my reference was i see no violence on the streets no crime in the 9 years i have lived here, in my home country in london i saw violence & crime almost every day, yet london is not poverty stricken.

Crime & violence is a product of society & how we educate & bring up our children to respect others, in china & thailand & singapore, buddasim plays a large part in a peaceful society.

That prat truthseeker seems to think brazil is the most peaceful place in the world, how is it in every statistic on violence & crime, brazil figures in the top 10 every year, most of the time the top five, like i said he lives in a dreamworld.

In brazil the streetkids rob you with guns, where else in the world do you see such a thing, they even have police deathsquads who go around killing street kids.

But hey truthseeker says brazil is a fab place LOL, i had a relation who went there, & was robbed within a day at knifepoint.

You are a retard. Brazil is one of the most peaceful countries in the world. We are know to be one of the most peaceful people. You say thailand has no violence? Well, look closely, because thailand is the world center of sex slavery. That's sound pretty peaceful to me...:bugeye:


You are an idiot. There's a clear proven correlation between poverty and violence.


He has a purpose.


That's how they earn and keep money, you retard.



I'm a buddhist.

You obviously don't know me... :rolleyes:


Again, you are an idiot. I've helped many and I'm in the process of founding a society for that very reason. I've spoken about it before here some time ago. I've spoken with one_raven about it.

Here's a bit of it....

"Vision
We dream of a world where all children are happy, free and safe throughout their lives.


Mission
To actively pursue the well being of mankind through the establishment of global connections among people, the dissemination of our values and principles, and the democratic control of global resources.


Values and Principles
The Mind
Through integrity, excellence is achieved.
Through excellence, imperfection remains perfect.
Love heals all suffering and imperfection.
Unconditionally, it leads to complete peace.


The Heart
Where there is divide, there is war.
Where there is diversity, there is peace.
From the valuation of diversity, we bring unification.
The unification of all people leads to peace.


Goals
Eliminate poverty
Eliminate racism
Eliminate war
Eliminate suffering
Protect environment"



Once again, you are a retard. It's proven that poverty causes violence.



Sex slavery?


There are prostitute in every damn country in the world prat, why dont you open up your eyes to it, in holland prostitution is legal, in new zealand the same, soooooooooooooooooo.

So what has prostitution in thailand got to do with poverty & violence, where is your link.

The girls who work in the go go bars in thailand do so of there own free will you sap, there will always be one bar in thailand that maybe is doing something illegal sex slaves underaged kids, but the same can be said of any country, only last year i read of dozens of sex slaves found in houses in the Uk, so as usual your point is so pathetic its unreal.

You seem to think if you give everyone in the world a million dollars there will be no more violence!!!!!!!!!

Just how stupid are you, violent people are usually violent by nature, even if they have a million dollars, they will want the other guys million, then the other guys.

Violence is caused by the society you live in, in thailand they respect eachother & there religon teaches against material wealth & violence hence there is next to no violence here, in brazil or the uk the respect is not there, its a dog eat dog society, hence the violence & crime.

Africa is poverty stricken & they have a gun culture & violent society there, i often see kids running around with guns there, when children are brought up in violent societies they will grow up to be violent, any fucking scientist will tell you that.


You are a typical anarchist make everyone rich then the world is all better, if everyone is rich who drives taxis, busses, who works in food shops, NOBODY BECAUSE EVERYONE IS RICH PRAT, then what do you have anarchy, which is your wet dream.

STOP LOOKING FOR THE EASY WAY OUT, stop blaming poverty for anything & everything & try using your brain, PEOPLE CAUSE VIOLENCE NOT POVERTY, if you were right & i was wrong thailand would be the most violent place in the world as $5 dollars a day buys alot of violence in your dreams, but the reality is thailand in the 9 years i have lived hear has been violence & crime free, which is something i cant say of my own country the UK.

See how i slag off my own country, yet you Mr truthseeker keep saying brazil is such a non violent place, when you only to well you are telling a pack of lies!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That about sums up your entire debate here, you just can not be honest about anything, are you blind even your president in brazil last month his men were running around with $500,000 in a suitcase to buy dirt against there opponents, where else would you see that in the world other than latin america, crime is rampant in your country fro the presidents office to the street kid with a gun, WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Vincent - Its hard work talking to theses sort isn't it

Sort of like banging your head against a brick wall - mind you - probably get more sense out of a brick wall

Dr. Yunus and Grameen Bank gave small loans to poor women and changed millions of poor women's (and men's) lives, directly or indirectly, not only in Bangladesh but also across the world (even here in America).

Congratulations to him. He's a good fella. Totally deserved it.

They have very good repayment rates, better than most banks or commercial lenders, and when you compare that to Bangladeshi (or Desi) institutions, then the numbers are just amazing.

*edit* The loans are given out based on trust. Informal groups recommend their group members to be creditworthy. The bank not only loans money to these people, but also teaches them some sorta skill set that would ensure that the loan would be properly utilized. Since the loan is based on trust (and not collateral), the repayment rate is usually in the mid to high 90s. Pretty amazing stuff.

Good thing about this man yunus is that after two decades of workin in anonymity, his ideas are winning converts, i mean the top world policy makers. A simple idea has rose him to the top, he deserves that nobel prize.

hopefully this propels the progress of poverty elimination even further.

Might i add there have been 2 other bengali nobel prize winners .
tagore and amartya sen. sen was brought up in Dhaka and his father taught at Dhaka university. It has also been won by Chandrasekhara (Indian) and Dr. Abdus Salam (pakistani) for physics.

It's an impressive system. I've been reading about it. He boasts a 99% repayment rate. It's based on a honor system where you're held accountable by your own peers. Therefore the repayment is high.

It has helped women mostly make a living in impoverished nations all around the world.

Fazle Abed is another Bangladeshi who has played a key role in the fight against poverty...look up BRAC (Bangladesh Rural Advancement Committee) if any of you are interested in learning more...

actually it demonstrates how capitalism DOESNT help ppl.
convential banks fail to lend to the destitute since they lack suitable collateral which is ingrained into 99percent of people as a *Necessity*. the fact that Grameen bank utilises social ostracization to ensure that people repay the loans offered to them is evidence of Socialism at work (socialism looks to the inherent good in people as its base fundamental whilst classical economics looks to peoples fundamental greed.

i presume part of the reason to give him the prize was to raise his profile exponentialy and make grameen style banks a political issue in many developing countries, i fully expect a whole bunch of new micro-credit organizations to be founded in the next 24 months because of this.....
it has given micro credit *official* establishment respectability

In Bangladesh, the best thing Grameen Bank did was to empower women, like women who had been left by their husbands (not divorced, just left on their own). In rural Bangladesh, when women would venture out of their homes to work, to put food on the table for their families, it was looked down upon. That's something Yunus and the Grameen Bank has been able to change in many, many communities. Now women work and earn money for themselves and their families. Even when the average Bangladeshi did not have a phone at home, Yunus brought cellphones to these poor, destitute women who could not even afford two meals a day before Grameen Bank entered their communities. This guy has some seriously innovative ideas.

Omg... those guys are so incredibly retarded I can't get through them at all! :eek:

No wonder the entire forums warned... :rolleyes:

Sex slavery?
So what has prostitution in thailand got to do with poverty & violence, where is your link.

there is actualy 3 different issues here.
1. domination and control and extortion of women (for what ever be that sex or other things).
2 religous consideration of the female (what level of respect as a human or equal they receive).
3. womens rights in general.

Legalising Prostitution actualy reduces the extortion and domination of women,
So this is one reason why many fundermentalist countrys would not want to legalise it because they quite clearly have a religous consideration that women are less valuable than men, thus men are allowed to own sell use kill or what ever they like to a women.

the other issue is psychopathic greed, where people sell people and or sex to make money.
this is also refered to as slavery and sex slavery.


Some interesting thoughts to keep in mind.
the majority of the world beleive in a religion where the women is a second rate animal to a man.
Soo... trying to use the religous debate to outline anything that is on a par with such an ethic (right to life or right to anything realy) is mearly hypocrisy.

If women are not afforded equal rights then they are not equal, AND further more those who think they are not equal and do not treat them equaly are of less worth than the women who nurture their own daughters to be slaves.

atleast we can understand that women know to keep a daughter quiet and agreable to pedophillia and such like to stay alive.
unlike those who run the countrys and operate and allow this slavery to go on.


as they say "Prostitution is the oldest profesion".
and men will do anything to get sex.
men have decided to treat women like animals so they can get sex for free when ever they want (RAPE).

Regardles of the religion, culture or country, it goes on in every country in the world in some manner, admittedly those countrys that openly promote equal rights of women and legalise prositution it is going to be a heck of allot less.

IF you raise boys to think women are less valuable than them and you raise girls to think they are of less value than anything else.
WHAT hope have you? ... of crawling out of a society where people live and think like wild animals (worse than actualy but no need to get into that).

there is no other known animal that inflicts pain and suffering and death on its own species for enjoyment (sadism).
humans are the only one.


Once muslims and christians value women as equals then i will start to consider them as human beings, until such time they deserve less respect and less resources than endangered animals like the tiger and the whales and various other animals that are not pre disposed to canibalistic annihilation of the species.

Equal rights should be a right to life

millions have died for civil rights and equal rights and rights to freedom of speach

and they go on dying in the millions of genocide and the likes (africa and asia and china and some baltic countrys)

we can land a person on the moon but we cant give a women equal rights ?!?!?!?!?!

I misplaced my sunglasses. Any problem with using a normal font?

Omg... those guys are so incredibly retarded I can't get through them at all! No wonder the entire forums warned.How about a hint? You will never "get through" to people by calling them bad names. You must speak to them, not about them. I have read your posts and I think I understand what you're saying, but you could do better. If you say something and the other person apparently does not understand you, the only useful thing to do is assume that it's your problem and try saying it in a different way. Because if it's the other person's problem you can't fix it.

If the other person really is a [bad name] then it makes even less sense to try to fix their problem. All you do is get yourself riled up and life is too short to waste any of it feeling that way. And everyone else has to scroll past your bad-name posts while trying not to let it affect their joy in the day at hand.

I'm sure there are lots of people here with whom you can have a perfectly sensible, information-packed dialog. I have certain people whose posts I ignore and whose threads I try to stay off of. Most of us do.

"Goddess grant me the strength to change the things I can change,
The serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
And the wisdom to know the difference."

I always change "god" to "goddess" just to keep my image up. But I think that "things" needs to be changed to "people." Especially on Sci Forums. :)

Let it go. It's not worth it.

I'm amazed how you always make sense out of nonsense, Fraggle...:D

Equal rights should be a right to life

millions have died for civil rights and equal rights and rights to freedom of speach

and they go on dying in the millions of genocide and the likes (africa and asia and china and some baltic countrys)

we can land a person on the moon but we cant give a women equal rights ?!?!?!?!?!

I think women are doing ok here in the UK

We had maggie Thatcher as the government leader of Britain for *cough* far too long, but anyway thats another isue

Our Queen is the head of state - and also the Head of the Church of England - who by the way have lots of female vicars or priests whicheverway you want to look at it

I mean like - The Queen is a Christian and she's the Head of the church - cant say fairer than that for equal rights in Christianity.

Women dont do too badly in the UK at all. There was an issue about equal pay a few years ago but I believe thats all been cleared up now.

That prat truthseeker seems to think brazil is the most peaceful place in the world, how is it in every statistic on violence & crime, brazil figures in the top 10 every year, most of the time the top five, like i said he lives in a dreamworld.

In brazil the streetkids rob you with guns, where else in the world do you see such a thing, they even have police deathsquads who go around killing street kids.

But hey truthseeker says brazil is a fab place LOL, i had a relation who went there, & was robbed within a day at knifepoint.


Brazil is so great that all the criminals flee there because its so full of crims no-one has got a fat chance of finding them.

Remember which country the Nazi's all fled to just as the war was finished - yep - BRAZIL.

I can only think of two good things Brazil is good for - making nuts and playing soccer. LOL!

Brazil is so great that all the criminals flee there because its so full of crims no-one has got a fat chance of finding them.

Remember which country the Nazi's all fled to just as the war was finished - yep - BRAZIL.

I can only think of two good things Brazil is good for - making nuts and playing soccer. LOL!
Actually Paraguay & Argentina were the main countries the US let Nazis flee to.

I'm not going to argue a stupid point like that genji


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/34781.stm


The Brazilian commission investigating the country's role in sheltering Nazi fugitives

I'm not going to argue a stupid point like that genji


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/34781.stm


The Brazilian commission investigating the country's role in sheltering Nazi fugitives:confused: I don't want to argue. More Nazis settled in Argentina & Stroeesner's Paraguay than any other country. A few ended up in Uruguay, a few in Bolivia and a few in Brazil. But the majority of Nazis were slipped into Argentina & Paraguay, nothin to argue about dude.

:confused: I don't want to argue. More Nazis settled in Argentina & Stroeesner's Paraguay than any other country. A few ended up in Uruguay, a few in Bolivia and a few in Brazil. But the majority of Nazis were slipped into Argentina & Paraguay, nothin to argue about dude.


Yeah its no big deal - all shit countries anyway. I wouldn't go anywhere near them

Yeah its no big deal - all shit countries anyway. I wouldn't go anywhere near themNone of them are 'shit' countries. Poor maybe from decades of rightwing military dictatorships, backed by the USA, but not shit countries. I'd take a tour of South America anyday!

None of them are 'shit' countries. Poor maybe from decades of rightwing military dictatorships, backed by the USA, but not shit countries. I'd take a tour of South America anyday!


You're welcome to them

I never knew that the USA backed some rightwing military dictatorships of Brazil and Argentina

Can you explain

You're welcome to them

I never knew that the USA backed some rightwing military dictatorships of Brazil and Argentina

Can you explainWell, I'm off work in 10 minutes but I'll try; US backed and installed Augusto Pinochet, a far right military dictator of Chile. The CIA murdered Salvador Allende because he wasn't the candidate Washington wanted. 20k-40k killed.
Galtieri of Argentina: Rightwing military dictator installed by the US. Thousands disappeared and thousands more murdered. Invaded Falkland Islands as well/
Colombia: Run by US installed and equipped death squads and a far right military dictator. Thousands murdered over the last 40 years.
Peru: Fujimori junta kills thousands in his military dictatorship.
Stroessner of Paraguay: Nazis best friend. Murdered thousands. Supported by USA.
Bolivia: Military dictorship for 40 years. Thousands murdered by US backed rightwing juntas.
Uruguay: Rightwing junta kills hundreds in purge supported by US.
Venezuela: Under rightwing jackboot for 50 years, until recent elections. Thousands killed in longtime dirty war against unions and peasants.

Although I agree that Muhammad Yunus shouldn't have won the Nobel Peace Prize, I think he definitely deserves at least the Nobel Economics Prize.

What many here who bash the Grameen Bank fail to realize is that micro-financing is a very effective way of combatting moderate poverty (I don't think it addresses extreme poverty). Yes, the interest rate may be 10% or 20%, but it is based on an HONOUR system of payment. Meaning if they fail to pay, that's it. The Bank doesn't seize property. There is no collateral, unlike other lending institutions and banks.

These types of small business ventures are what forms the BASIS of an economy for the third world. As these small businesses expand, they hire more and more labour, spreading wealth around and increasing the standard of living.

This system is way better than the system that the World Bank and IMF run on, where if certain countries can't pay the excessive loan repayments, then the World Bank and IMF forcibly take the money from the countries (even if it means the collapse of that particular economy).

Microfinancing won't solve poverty, but it does go in the right direction. It's light years better than those who falsely claim, "oh, the third world is poor because it's their own fault" and "they're greedy and lazy".

I never knew that the USA backed some rightwing military dictatorships of Brazil and Argentina. Can you explain.Brazil, rightist military government, 1964-1985. U.S. business leaders supported it because it completely suppressed the labor movement: not one successful strike during the entire period. Several U.S. administrations, notably LBJ, supported it because of its flaming anti-communist stance.

Argentina, rightist military government, 1966-1973, similar pattern of U.S. support.

You're welcome to them

I never knew that the USA backed some rightwing military dictatorships of Brazil and Argentina

Can you explain
OMFG!!!!! Are you from this planet!!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Oh, of course... you were taught lies at school....:rolleyes:


http://www.crimesofwar.org/special/condor.html
"This article explores recent evidence linking the U.S. national security apparatus with Operation Condor. Condor took place within the broader context of inter-American counterinsurgency coordination and operations led and sponsored by the Pentagon and the CIA. U.S. training, doctrine, organizational models, technology transfers, weapons sales, and ideological attitudes profoundly shaped security forces in the region."


http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA/Veil_Condor.html
http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/oct1998/pino-o31.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor

OMFG!!!!! Are you from this planet!!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Oh, of course... you were taught lies at school....:rolleyes:


http://www.crimesofwar.org/special/condor.html
"This article explores recent evidence linking the U.S. national security apparatus with Operation Condor. Condor took place within the broader context of inter-American counterinsurgency coordination and operations led and sponsored by the Pentagon and the CIA. U.S. training, doctrine, organizational models, technology transfers, weapons sales, and ideological attitudes profoundly shaped security forces in the region."


http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA/Veil_Condor.html
http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/oct1998/pino-o31.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CondorGreat links! Not to mention the period from WW2 to 1990!!!!!

OMFG!!!!! Are you from this planet!!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Oh, of course... you were taught lies at school....:rolleyes:



Did they teach you sarcasm at your school???

I went to school in the UK where the history taught is of the UK - not the US

Even so - the history lessons about Britain purposely left out the gore of how the British Empire was built

One example not taught in UK schools about the formation of the British Empire:- Every Tasmanian was rounded up and killed when the British landed on their Island - they killed every single one.

We weren't taught lies - they just conveniently left out the truth.


Talking of the truth - How much truth is there in this article?

http://www.rense.com/general31/cyc.htm

Dr. Yunus and Grameen Bank gave small loans to poor women and changed millions of poor women's (and men's) lives, directly or indirectly, not only in Bangladesh but also across the world (even here in America).
Congratulations to him. He's a good fella. Totally deserved it.

Agree completely. Dr Yunus will go down in history as discovering one of the greatest socio-economic ideas of all time. If what has been written about him is true, he also will be known for doing this out of curiosity and good will to his fellow man.

Actually it demonstrates how capitalism DOESNT help ppl. convential banks fail to lend to the destitute since they lack suitable collateral which is ingrained into 99percent of people as a *Necessity*. the fact that Grameen bank utilises social ostracization to ensure that people repay the loans offered to them is evidence of Socialism at work (socialism looks to the inherent good in people as its base fundamental whilst classical economics looks to peoples fundamental greed.


This is a distorted view IMO.
Socialism was irrelevant to Grameen Bank

Capitalism is in essence the right to private property.
Socialism removes assets from private hands and turns it over to a secular government, which is nothing more than other people.

Banking is a direct result of the free distribution of wealth/money.
The fact that traditional banks did not find their way to the villages where they were/are so desperately needed is a weakness of the system and of individual people, but not a condemnation of the right to private property.
In fact Dr Yunus has proven that Capitalism works for everyone, not just the wealthy.

Any system is prey to the weaknesses and evil of some men. Socialism included. And using social peer pressure as a tool is nothing new. Companies all over the world use 'teamwork' and 'peer pressure' to increase effectiveness.

"Muslim wins nobel peace prize"

That implies all muslims are violent, or unfit to ever possibly win the peace prize for some other reason.

Anything that says "all of ____ people are ______" is discriminatory.

Talking of the truth - How much truth is there in this article?

http://www.rense.com/general31/cyc.htm

its from rense.
'nuff said, smartguy. i dont even need to open it to know its a load of garbage.