http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/21/BAGMTLTGM51.DTL&hw=Religious+hate+seen+as+motive+in+killing&sn=001&sc=1000

Local Muslim leaders on Friday denounced as a likely hate crime the brazen daylight shooting death in Fremont of a mother of six, and police said that they had arrested a parolee described as a "person of interest" in connection with the slaying.

Killed Thursday by a single bullet to the head as she walked with her 3-year-old daughter on a well-to-do residential street, she was distinguished by a hijab, the head scarf worn by some devout Muslim women. The Afghan immigrant had no purse or money on her, family members said.

Stunned relatives and Muslim leaders said the only motive they could see, outside of insanity, would be hatred.

"Whoever did this did not see Alia Ansari, a mother of six children," said Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, one of the nation's most respected Muslim scholars and leaders, who spoke to the media outside of the Ansaris' modest two-bedroom apartment. "He saw a symbol of something that people are taught to hate."

"All that we can assume is that it's a hate crime," said Hassan Ansari, 23, the youngest of Alia Ansari's seven siblings.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/22/BAGMTLTPGE1.DTL

Hey indians are being killed around the world too because they look like muslims to the uneducated, i feel sorry for the indians, i dont feel sorry for the muslims, muslims have let terroists & loony clerics & imans take over there religon, is it any wonder every nut out there wants to kill them?

The australian loony iman, & the uk loony cleric case in point oz girls deserved to be raped, & gays deserved to be killed, IF YOU PREACH RAPE, & KILLING, WHAT ON EARTH DO YOU EXPECT IN RETURN, theres a old saying you reap what you sow, & the leaders of islam are sowing nothing but hatred & contempt for the west, women, & gays, so guys gather in your harvest thats what i say................

Hate that is so strong that it enables a person to kill a total stranger for no more reason than a suspicion that the stranger is of a certain religion or social persuation, is as close to insanity as insanity can get.

Those religious leaders do more harm than good by promoting the hate mentality in reverse by innuendo. What they are saying subliminally is, 'look, people are beginning to hate us for our religion, our belief, our culture... they hate us.' Negative messages like this can and do stir the emotions of sheep-minded people, and the militant amongst them will use the leader's statements to their own ends and seek revenge against other innocent people, thereby perpetuating the conflict and hate, which is completely manufactured by manipulative or stupid people to satisfy their own agenda.

Now if I was a muslim, the rattle would be firmly out of the pram. I imagine a few burning effigies, tantrums and hails to allah would follow...not to mention some suicide bombings to make the point.

"What happened here is an act of terrorism," said Rona Popal, executive director of the Afghan Coalition

Rich. Very rich indeed

Hate that is so strong that it enables a person to kill a total stranger for no more reason than a suspicion that the stranger is of a certain religion or social persuation, is as close to insanity as insanity can get.

Those religious leaders do more harm than good by promoting the hate mentality in reverse by innuendo. What they are saying subliminally is, 'look, people are beginning to hate us for our religion, our belief, our culture... they hate us.' Negative messages like this can and do stir the emotions of sheep-minded people, and the militant amongst them will use the leader's statements to their own ends and seek revenge against other innocent people, thereby perpetuating the conflict and hate, which is completely manufactured by manipulative or stupid people to satisfy their own agenda.

Where is all the hate coming from?

its coming from the mouths of loony muslim clerics & imans, they are inciting violence worldwide with there hatred of the west & western womens freedoms, & gays.

If muslim clerics & imans sticked to teaching peace & stayed the fuck out of politics & western lifestyle, there would be very few hate crimes against muslims.

As far as I know, no Muslim women have committed acts of violence against us. Just the men. Even if some people generalize from that that all Muslim men are our enemies, still only the most vile coward kills his enemy's women--as the terrorists routinely do.

Women are a force for peace almost everywhere in the world. To kill your enemy's women is to remove his influences for tolerance, moderation and negotiation so that he will continue fighting. In addition it outrages him and makes him grieve in a way that killing his father, brothers and sons cannot do, so that he will be angrier and fight more viciously.

A person who does this actually wants war.

This is how these things get going. Their looneybirds kill our women and children, the hotheads among us start killing their women and children, then more of them become hotheads... Both sides get angrier until they are so irrational that there is no hope for negotiation and peace.

This is the legacy of Abraham. Some days I almost wish his little fairy tale about a god and angels and heaven and hell was real, just so I could take comfort in the belief that Abraham is rotting in the deepest cavern of hell for the evil he loosed on humankind

As far as I know, no Muslim women have committed acts of violence against us. Just the men. Even if some people generalize from that that all Muslim men are our enemies, still only the most vile coward kills his enemy's women.

Women are a force for peace almost everywhere in the world. To kill your enemy's women is to remove his influences for tolerance, moderation and negotiation so that he will continue fighting. In addition it outrages him and makes him grieve in a way that killing his father, brothers and sons cannot do, so that he will be angrier and fight more viciously.

A person who does this actually wants war.

I don't think you'll find the west up in arms, supporting this killing, in the name of God

As far as I know, no Muslim women have committed acts of violence against us. Just the men. Even if some people generalize from that that all Muslim men are our enemies, still only the most vile coward kills his enemy's women.

Women are a force for peace almost everywhere in the world. To kill your enemy's women is to remove his influences for tolerance, moderation and negotiation so that he will continue fighting. In addition it outrages him and makes him grieve in a way that killing his father, brothers and sons cannot do, so that he will be angrier and fight more viciously.

A person who does this actually wants war.


Well if she was from afghan no doubt she was wearing a burka, now wearing a burka in america is like waving a red flag to a bull.

I feel very insulted & sorry for mankind when i see a woman with a veil or burka on, IT IS JUST A PURE MALE CHAUVENISTIC PIG THING, it has no place in this century none at all, & there is no justification for it, other than keeping women in the gutter.

In countries that have freedom all there lives, burkas & veils dont fit, they just anger the locals who see it for what it is, a dog collar a muslim man has around his wife.

It is a fact that fundamentalist Christian ministers and fundamentalist Islamist leaders do incite and promote hate between the 2 religions. The conflict is as old and probably even older than the bible, but modern leaders should know better, should exercise restraint and should promote peace and reconciliation instead of what they do now, but as mentioned before, they each have their own agendas.

Hey indians are being killed around the world too because they look like muslims to the uneducated, i feel sorry for the indians, i dont feel sorry for the muslims, muslims have let terroists & loony clerics & imans take over there religon, is it any wonder every nut out there wants to kill them?

Wth? So its okay for innocent Muslims to be killed simply because us Muslims ‘have let terrorists & loony clerics & imans take over’ our religion?

We let them take over our religion?

Who is it that gives loonies like Omar Bakri and Anjum Choudary airtime? Do they appear on Muslim channels? No. It is the BBC and CNN, they give them airtime, they allow them to spout their hatred, Muslim groups are always complaining yet nothing is ever done. The Western Media is obsessed with loonie clerics and Imams, they are obsessed with misrepresenting Islam and Muslims, they are obsessed with making sensationalist headlines, blatant Islamophobia, demonising Muslims, talking complete s*** etc. It’s the same with the politicians, all attacking Muslims for political gain.

Bulls***

Well if she was from afghan no doubt she was wearing a burka, now wearing a burka in america is like waving a red flag to a bull.

I feel very insulted & sorry for mankind when i see a woman with a veil or burka on, IT IS JUST A PURE MALE CHAUVENISTIC PIG THING, it has no place in this century none at all, & there is no justification for it, other than keeping women in the gutter.

In countries that have freedom all there lives, burkas & veils dont fit, they just anger the locals who see it for what it is, a dog collar a muslim man has around his wife.

Is this a justification for murdering the woman? If not, what the fuck are you saying?

I don't think you'll find the west up in arms, supporting this killing, in the name of GodI don't know. There are plenty of people who claim to be Christians who support the war against the Iraqis, even though the vague shred of rationality behind it evaporated long ago. I think they just want to see Muslims killed over 9/11 and they don't give a damn if it's the wrong Muslims. Christianity is far stronger in America and this is surely a major reason that the people of more secular Europe can't figure out why we're doing this. I have only met one non-religious American who supports the war. The rest of us are almost ready to emigrate.

Thanks for posting that, Ghost. This may be the first ever actual case of murder of a muslim by a non-muslim in the name of religious hatred, if indeed that was the motive. The reverse is far, far more likely of course; yet the fact that it occurred at all is indicative of a society that has reached the limits of its tolerance, if indeed that was the reason she was shot. The article indicates, however, that the police have not made that assertion:

"We still have no definite indication as to motive," said police Sgt. Jeff Swadener, a department spokesman. "Was it racial? Was it a hate crime? Was it a street robbery or a random act of violence? I don't know."

She was in a "well-to-do neighbourhood", as the article states. Perhaps it was merely a case of economic resentment. Economics, as I'm sure we all know, is the primary motive behind most crime. The haves vs the have-nots. Not so?

Geoff

People that kill innocent people at random are in some way insane. Excuses are just window dressing.

Hey indians are being killed around the world too because they look like muslims to the uneducated, i feel sorry for the indians, i dont feel sorry for the muslims, muslims have let terroists & loony clerics & imans take over there religon, is it any wonder every nut out there wants to kill them?

The australian loony iman, & the uk loony cleric case in point oz girls deserved to be raped, & gays deserved to be killed, IF YOU PREACH RAPE, & KILLING, WHAT ON EARTH DO YOU EXPECT IN RETURN, theres a old saying you reap what you sow, & the leaders of islam are sowing nothing but hatred & contempt for the west, women, & gays, so guys gather in your harvest thats what i say................

muslims have let terroists & loony clerics & imans take over there religon,
no they haven't.
dipshits like you pulling up meaningless, distorted, overhyped internet links doesn't equate to muslims letting anyone take over their religion.
Don't confuse popular media distortion for actuality britboy.

IF YOU PREACH RAPE, & KILLING, WHAT ON EARTH DO YOU EXPECT IN RETURN,
then kill those who preach it, not inocent muslims.

Loony Imam:

Australia's most senior Muslim cleric has prompted an uproar by saying that some women are attracting sexual assault by the way they dress.

Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali said women who did not wear a hijab (head dress) were like "uncovered meat".

(lets not look at the rapists as a criminal, where did his need to rape come from? why was the woman revealing herself???)

loony Vince:

Where is all the hate coming from?

its coming from the mouths of loony muslim clerics & imans, they are inciting violence worldwide with there hatred of the west & western womens freedoms, & gays.

If muslim clerics & imans sticked to teaching peace & stayed the fuck out of politics & western lifestyle, there would be very few hate crimes against muslims.

(lets not think of the person that decided to put a bullet into the head of an innocent women, he was just responding to the hatred of Muslims!!!!!!!!!!)

wth?

I don't know. There are plenty of people who claim to be Christians who support the war against the Iraqis, even though the vague shred of rationality behind it evaporated long ago. I think they just want to see Muslims killed over 9/11 and they don't give a damn if it's the wrong Muslims. Christianity is far stronger in America and this is surely a major reason that the people of more secular Europe can't figure out why we're doing this. I have only met one non-religious American who supports the war. The rest of us are almost ready to emigrate.

You make a good point. Perhaps we are just more subtle. I for one don't strongly support any religions, yet agree with the war. Our reasons for war may not have been admirable, but they weren't religious either, IMO

Where is all the hate coming from?

its coming from the mouths of loony muslim clerics & imans, they are inciting violence worldwide with there hatred of the west & western womens freedoms, & gays.

If muslim clerics & imans sticked to teaching peace & stayed the fuck out of politics & western lifestyle, there would be very few hate crimes against muslims.


Where is all the hate coming from?
you.

its coming from the mouths of loony muslim clerics & imans, they are inciting violence worldwide with there hatred of the west & western womens freedoms, & gays.
no, they are the opinions that suspiciously grab all the media attention, so that narrow minded little bigots like you who attain all their information about islam from the popular media can copy and paste these over hyped "stories" and pat yourself on the back and delude yourself that you're well informed.
you know nothing.


If muslim clerics & imans sticked to teaching peace & stayed the fuck out of politics & western lifestyle, there would be very few hate crimes against muslims.
again as above.
for every "loony" cleric that grabs the headline there are 100x more learned scholars and muftis who give the real view, but that never reaches the mass media because that's not the image of islam that the media wants to portray and its not want you want to hear about because you just want stories that support your biassed and prejudiced views.

you have no interest in the truth.

Thanks for posting that, Ghost. This may be the first ever actual case of murder of a muslim by a non-muslim in the name of religious hatred, if indeed that was the motive.

Is this a f***** game to you? Is that all you ever think about?

The reverse is far, far more likely of course; yet the fact that it occurred at all is indicative of a society that has reached the limits of its tolerance, if indeed that was the reason she was shot. The article indicates, however, that the police have not made that assertion:

GeoffP, you talk out of your arse. I find it hard to take you seriously.

She was in a "well-to-do neighbourhood", as the article states. Perhaps it was merely a case of economic resentment. Economics, as I'm sure we all know, is the primary motive behind most crime. The haves vs the have-nots. Not so?

You believe that?

Ghost, please calm down. Why are you so angry? I don't know the motive of the murderer; do you? I merely wish to examine all the alternatives before passing judgement as is routinely done here on SciForums. I'm sure you're aware of this.

And why do you bold my statement above? Do you assume there was no reason for any hatred this individual might hold, assuming he hated anything? We are told so often here on SciForums while attempting to judge cases on merit: think about circumstance, association, nuance. What led to these crimes? Why did this individual act as he did? So little seems to be evaluable in its own rights. I merely think those same rules should apply to all discussions.

And why shouldn't I believe that she was killed because she was in a wealthy neighbourhood? It certainly has happened before.

People are killed in drive-by shootings on a regular basis in the USA ...what makes this one so much different to all of the others? ...just 'cause she's a Muslim? Others who've been killed have been Christians ...so what?

Y'all and obviously some of the news media are just making this into something that it's not ...just for the hype of it all? ...to sell newspapers and advertising?

How many people are randomly killed in drive-by-style shootings every day?

Baron Max

This may be the first ever actual case of murder of a muslim by a non-muslim in the name of religious hatred, if indeed that was the motive.
Do you always make wildly false unsupported staements like this? If you're serious, at least try for making a factual statement.
The reverse is far, far more likely of course; yet the fact that it occurred at all is indicative of a society that has reached the limits of its tolerance, if indeed that was the reason she was shot.
I personally would like to believe that people conducting random shootings are in no way indicative of society. Do you really believe the kind of person who kills a stranger is that affected by society?

Killed Thursday by a single bullet to the head as she walked with her 3-year-old daughter on a well-to-do residential street, ...

I just remembered something ....a few weeks ago here in Dallas, a man was killed in a similar way ...bullet to the head in a quiet, affluent part of town. They later discovered that the bullet came from a gun, almost a mile away, that was fired by accident while the man was loading the rifle.

So ...perhaps until we know what really happened, we should not jump to erroneous conclusions, huh? Innocent until proven guilty and all that silly crap??

Baron Max

Do you always make wildly false unsupported staements like this? If you're serious, at least try for making a factual statement.

Not sure where you're going with this. If the shooter - if he is the shooter - said that he did it for religious reasons, then wouldn't my statement thereby be correct? I'm not saying that's what it was - it might well not be, and the police don't believe it is - but if it was, how would my statement be false?

I personally would like to believe that people conducting random shootings are in no way indicative of society. Do you really believe the kind of person who kills a stranger is that affected by society?

Well, perceived or real slights or inequities make people do all kinds of things. Riots, murders of apostates, burned embassies, or just general mayhem. Why couldn't a person internalize enough rage to do something like that?

Geoff

I can't believe some of you are attempting to justify her murder by saying "she's a muslim and their imams preach hatred", etc.

She was an innocent individual who was shot and killed. If she was killed because she was a Muslim, then it makes her killer just as much a sick bastard, as any individual who kills another because of their religious belief, regardless of what said belief may be.

What some in her religion preach should not come to play in her murder. She is the innocent victim here, not her murderer. You can't use the excuse that 'people are getting sick and tired and are lashing out'. There is no excuse to murder anyone. Nothing and no possible reason can excuse her murderer for his/her actions. Some of you need to gain some perspective. There is no justification for this woman's murder. She is the victim.

Stunned relatives and Muslim leaders said the only motive they could see, outside of insanity, would be hatred.

"Whoever did this did not see Alia Ansari, a mother of six children," said Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, one of the nation's most respected Muslim scholars and leaders, who spoke to the media outside of the Ansaris' modest two-bedroom apartment. "He saw a symbol of something that people are taught to hate."

"All that we can assume is that it's a hate crime," said Hassan Ansari, 23, the youngest of Alia Ansari's seven siblings.

What a load of crap. A perfect example of why Islam is so dangerous. Muslims begin making wild accusations and assumptions and will then turn to Islam to justify revenge.

Clearly, Hamza Yusuf if anything but a scholar or leader.

I don't know if you refer to me, but I make no such justification.

I am merely pointing out that the application of 'perspective' in arguments has been, to date, quite one-sided. There is inevitably the 'well, the murder of people via terrorism is bad, but the are terrorists too, and we must address root issues' deferral in political issues on the server; yet the reverse - that individual violence may occur in response to terrorism - seems to be a [i]verboten concept.

I most certainly do not excuse the murderer from justice, and punishment. If his motive was religious hatred, then he is wrong, and needs dealing with accordingly. But why is it more a sin to question the 'source motive' (if indeed that was the motive) for murder than it is to question the source motive for terrorism? Why is the one (excusing terrorism on external motive) acceptable and the other (speculating as to individual motive) not?

If this insensitive - and why not say it? it is - then I apologize. She is indeed the victim. I was merely wished to engage the readers, and certain ones in particular, in a little comparison.

It is the BBC and CNN, they give them airtime, they allow them to spout their hatred, Muslim groups are always complaining yet nothing is ever done. The Western Media is obsessed with loonie clerics and Imams, they are obsessed with misrepresenting Islam and Muslims, they are obsessed with making sensationalist headlines, blatant Islamophobia, demonising Muslims, talking complete s*** etc. It’s the same with the politicians, all attacking Muslims for political gain.

Oh look, someones already jumping on the bandwagon.

This may be the first ever actual case of murder of a muslim by a non-muslim in the name of religious hatred
Not sure where you're going with this. If the shooter - if he is the shooter - said that he did it for religious reasons, then wouldn't my statement thereby be correct?No. Do you really think that no Muslim has ever been killed for religious reasons by a non-Muslim?
Well, perceived or real slights or inequities make people do all kinds of things. Riots, murders of apostates, burned embassies, or just general mayhem. Why couldn't a person internalize enough rage to do something like that?
Riots, embassy burnings and general mayhem are generally mob acts, rather than individual acts. This killing was not a mob affair, and as such I maintain that any person who takes it upon themselves to kill someone for their mode of dress/religion/etc is not a representative member of society.

Stop slaughtering our people, invading our lands, subverting our cultures, and insulting our people and we'll stop shooting your mothers.

Fraggle Rocker

I don't know. There are plenty of people who claim to be Christians who support the war against the Iraqis,

You are totally stupid Fraggle, with that statement you just proved it, the war was and is not against the Iraqi, please prove that your are not stupid and provide proof that the war is against the Iraqi's, the only people today that are conducting war of terror against the Iraq Nation are the terrorist, and the war by the coalition was against Saddam, and the assholes that he put in power, not the Iraqi people.

Bombing in Iraq Kills Mostly Children
Bombing in Iraq Kills Mostly Children ... Russ Goemaere, said in a statement that "the terrorist undoubtedly saw the children around the Humvee as he ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071300336.html

Suicide bomb kills 125 near Iraq marketplace
"This terrorist attack constitutes a flagrant violation of international ... in a series of suicide bombings in Baghdad and the holy city of Kerbala, ...
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-03/01/content_420571.htm

Lateline - 29/10/2003: Analyst talks about suicide bombings in ...
The start of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan seemed to trigger a wave of terrorist bombings and speculation that Iraq has become a magnet for Arab ...
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2003/s978152.htm

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Attack near Iraq shrine kills 35
A suicide bombing at a market in the southern Iraqi city of Najaf kills ... A report estimating 655, 000 dead in Iraq diverges hugely from other estimates. ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4778849.stm

MOFA: Statement by the Press Secretary/Director-General for Press ...
... on the Series of Terrorist Bombing Attacks in Karbala and Najaf, Iraq ... who had been killed by the past terrorist acts including the recent ones, ...
http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/announce/2004/12/1220-3.html

U.S. releases chief Fallujah negotiator - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com
BAGHDAD, Iraq - The Iraqi government on Monday secured the release of the chief ... responsibility for numerous suicide bombings and hostage beheadings. ...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6095119/

Significant Terrorist Incidents 1961-2003: A Brief Chronology
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Homeland, September 11, 2001: Two hijacked ... Suicide Car Bombings in Iraq, December 15, 2003: Two days after the capture of ...
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm

Stop slaughtering our people, invading our lands, subverting our cultures, and insulting our people and we'll stop shooting your mothers.Who is the terrorist here? Since the big, bad US military has failed to secure any portion or city in Iraq it would be much, much easier for small-dick little pricks like you to do it the easy way and murder women & children.

Stop slaughtering our people, invading our lands, subverting our cultures, and insulting our people and we'll stop shooting your mothers.Oh yeah, what land of ours have Muslims invaded?

Genji:

Who is the terrorist here? Since the big, bad US military has failed to secure any portion or city in Iraq it would be much, much easier for small-dick little pricks like you to do it the easy way and murder women & children.

Speaking from a Machiavellian point of view, such tactics would probably stop the insurgency rather well if taken to a great enough extreme.

Oh yeah, what land of ours have Muslims invaded?

Europe and the United States, through a mass-exodus of immigrants who not only refuse to assimilate, but often hate the country they come to.

Dear All,

I hope all is well

thank you for posting this one ghost...

Sorry if someone may have mentioned what i am about to say..... If a muslim had killed a non muslim woman on the streets of the Uk in cold blood with a bullet in the head cos that woman was wearing what that guy thought was in-approriate dress (eg short sjkirt etc..0 you guys would be up in arms about it making a huige song and dance and demanding an apology etc... ghost, Myself, Sam and outlandish all would have condemmned this man for executing such vile actions...

So come on then you lot condem him and slaughter him like i would have done if this guy had been a muslim!!!!

bells thank you for your input and anyo ne else who has made a balanced contribution here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

take care
zak

Stop slaughtering our people, invading our lands, subverting our cultures, and insulting our people and we'll stop shooting your mothers.For a moment there I thought you were talking about the actions of the US in Iraq...

Speaking from a Machiavellian point of view, such tactics would probably stop the insurgency rather well if taken to a great enough extreme.So, killing innocent civilians stops wars? You mean like the Blitz failed to destroy British morale, or for that matter the Dresden bombing? Remind me why the 'War on Terror' started in the first place.

Zak, I think you've read the posts all wrong! No one that I could see has defended the killer in any way ...where did you get that idea? As I see it, everyone has condemned the killing.

The argument seems to be whether or not it's a hate crime, that's all.

No, Zak, like so many threads in the past ...you've just read this all wrong, or you're pulling you tired old tactics to stir the pot of Muslim/western hatred.

Baron Max

So, killing innocent civilians stops wars?

Sure as hell stopped the Japanese in World War II, didn't it? And in like manner, it stopped the Germans, too.

Remind me why the 'War on Terror' started in the first place.

Cause we didn't happen to like the radical Muslims flying our planes into the World Trade Center buildings. Other than that, we also don't like Muslim radicals blowing up innocent women and children ...DURING PEACETIME! In war, fully declared by legitimate governments, bombing enemy cities is acceptable practice ...just like the Germans did in England and like the British and Americans did to the Germans.

But crazed, radical individuals like the Muslim terrorists are just individual criminals, vicious murderers ...nothing else! Anyone who uses those terrorist tactics are simply taking the law into their own, individual hands ...and that ain't a nice thing to do!

Baron Max

Stop slaughtering our people, invading our lands, subverting our cultures, and insulting our people and we'll stop shooting your mothers.

So are you a murderer as well then?

Zak, I think you've read the posts all wrong! No one that I could see has defended the killer in any way ...where did you get that idea? As I see it, everyone has condemned the killing.

The argument seems to be whether or not it's a hate crime, that's all.

No, Zak, like so many threads in the past ...you've just read this all wrong, or you're pulling you tired old tactics to stir the pot of Muslim/western hatred.

Baron Max

Hey baron

thank you for your comments.

Perhaps I have read the posts all wrong, please can you refer me to where this has been openly condemed, i think bells cameout with something....

If it is not a hate crime what crime is, saying that the murderer could be one of this mentally deranged people.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Zak

Hay Baron welcome back, give em' hell!

If a muslim had killed a non muslim woman on the streets of the Uk in cold blood with a bullet in the head cos that woman was wearing what that guy thought was in-approriate dress (eg short sjkirt etc..0 you guys would be up in arms about it making a huige song and dance and demanding an apology etc... ghost, Myself, Sam and outlandish all would have condemmned this man for executing such vile actions...

So come on then you lot condem him and slaughter him like i would have done if this guy had been a muslim!!!!

And here we have another vengeful Muslim ready to justify their violence at the whim of their imaginative assertions.

No. Do you really think that no Muslim has ever been killed for religious reasons by a non-Muslim?

Well, let's say "documented murder", then. If there are other such, then I have yet to see them, and I express no opinion as to whether they exist or not.

Riots, embassy burnings and general mayhem are generally mob acts, rather than individual acts. This killing was not a mob affair, and as such I maintain that any person who takes it upon themselves to kill someone for their mode of dress/religion/etc is not a representative member of society.

Hmm...well I disagree here. Many people are moved to individual acts based on societal urges. But I would stipulate that those individual acts are not necessarily representative of society.

Sorry if someone may have mentioned what i am about to say..... If a muslim had killed a non muslim woman on the streets of the Uk in cold blood with a bullet in the head cos that woman was wearing what that guy thought was in-approriate dress (eg short sjkirt etc..0 you guys would be up in arms about it making a huige song and dance and demanding an apology etc... ghost, Myself, Sam and outlandish all would have condemmned this man for executing such vile actions...

Actually, ghost would have implied there were many other reasons why she had been murdered, and avoided any such apology, and Sam would have tried to explain why such a killing was not islamic.

Hay Baron welcome back, give em' hell!
Hi Buffalo,

i hope all is good with you.

i dont think think the baron needs too much encouraging on this my friend.

And here we have another vengeful Muslim ready to justify their violence at the whim of their imaginative assertions.

Dear (Q)

Ok then thats quite a reasonable assertion you have just made, thanks for that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

Actually, ghost would have implied there were many other reasons why she had been murdered, and avoided any such apology, and Sam would have tried to explain why such a killing was not islamic.

hey geoff

So quick to judge......without facts..... please post the backup...

~~~~~~~~~~
take care zak

Judge without facts? I presume you've been following the debate?

Ghost would have opined how people following the 'right' islam, the 'real' islam - you know, like our good friends at the MCB (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2425971,00.html) - would never support such a thing, and how only radicals would make such statements. Sam would tell us that such an opinion is not really islamic.

Except, of course, that there are many muslims today who agree quite strongly with this purported 'fringe'. What proportion? Who knows? I suspect it would be quite substantial, given the underscore of support for something as vile as terrorism. I believe there are true moderates - somewhere - but for their message to be accepted it is within the faith that da'wa needs to made, not out of it.

Best to you,

Geoff

Ok then thats quite a reasonable assertion you have just made, thanks for that.

It is an assertion based on evidence of your post. If you want to tell others to deal in the facts, please attempt to follow your own advice.

And please stop assuming this was a hate crime. All crimes are hate crimes regardless of who the victim.

The reverse is far, far more likely of course; yet the fact that it occurred at all is indicative of a society that has reached the limits of its tolerance, if indeed that was the reason she was shot.
Geoff

Limit of its tolerance for what?

And does that, in your opinion, justify the shooting of a random Muslim woman, if that were the reason she were shot?

And please stop assuming this was a hate crime.

All crimes are hate crimes regardless of who the victim.

So was this a hate crime?

sam:

Zionists, Republicans and their ilk will do anything to justify the butchery of Muslims, or anyone who opposes their Imperialistic attitudes. You should know this by now. It is their nature to act like sub-human filth.

Perhaps someone should point out to these people that perhaps the German society reached the 'limits of their tolerance' for the Jewish people prior to the Holohoax?

My my, wouldn't that provoke a nasty reaction?

sam:

Zionists, Republicans and their ilk will do anything to justify the butchery of Muslims, or anyone who opposes their Imperialistic attitudes. You should know this by now. It is their nature to act like sub-human filth.

Perhaps someone should point out to these people that perhaps the German society reached the 'limits of their tolerance' for the Jewish people prior to the Holohoax?

My my, wouldn't that provoke a nasty reaction?

No I am interested in hearing the explanation from Geoff for other reasons.

Perhaps he can define for me what these limits are and under what circumstances they are reached. I would also like to know what forms of retaliation he considers justified when these limits are reached.

sam:

No I am interested in hearing the explanation from Geoff for other reasons.

Are you sure that you don't suffer from any mental defects?

Limit of its tolerance for what?

I mean that in the same way that terrorism is excused on the basis of the actions of Israel.

Perhaps "achieved a dangerous level of outrage" would be a better way to put it.

And does that, in your opinion, justify the shooting of a random Muslim woman, if that were the reason she were shot?

Of course not.

sam:

Are you sure that you don't suffer from any mental defects?


I see no reason why I cannot ask for clarification. :)

Zionists, Republicans and their ilk will do anything to justify the butchery of Muslims, or anyone who opposes their Imperialistic attitudes. You should know this by now. It is their nature to act like sub-human filth.

Ah - my favourite racist returns! I hope you're not still smarting from the pasting I gave you on the genetic issues a while back. I thought you were supposed to be a biologist, though, Dan?

Perhaps someone should point out to these people that perhaps the German society reached the 'limits of their tolerance' for the Jewish people prior to the Holohoax?

Of course, one would wonder what crimes Jewish people had committed prior to being butchered by people like 'mountainhare'/'HH8H'. I'm sure he can quote chapter and verse from such respected sources as the Protocol of Zion, or Mein Kampf. Anything by Hitler or Ford. Then again, mountain's not really one for evidence or process. Never really has been.

Or perhaps even he is not too dull to spot irony? Sam so far has missed the boat, and is a far brighter prospect by far.

Well, I hold out no hope.

Sam so far has missed the boat, and is a far brighter prospect by far.

Well, I hold out no hope.

Aren't you being a little premature?;)



Perhaps he can define for me what these limits are and under what circumstances they are reached. I would also like to know what forms of retaliation he considers justified when these limits are reached.

Aren't you being a little premature?;)

Not in the slightest. Sam, you're one of the brightest people on here. That mountainhare should choose to associate with you is...well, repulsive.

I honestly wish you well, Sam. At the same time, I cannot help but be outraged at the excesses of islam, and I probably will continue reporting on them in my sarcastic manner. I think of you as a true reformer; I have no hope for your mission but I think muslims need it. I will say this: preach to your coreligionists. I, conversely, am already in the choir.

As for 'limits', that was rather a ruse. My apologies for that and the shot.

So was this a hate crime?

Sorry, to clarify, it was a crime based on hate as all crimes are based. The problem is that Muslims have glorified the "hate" aspect in that they appear unable to discern that all crimes are based on hate.

They single-out this crime and label it a "hate" crime in that it should be given special notice. The label itself is inherent in all crimes, hence their arguments based on the fact the woman was a hated Muslim are pointless.

People are killed in drive-by shootings on a regular basis in the USA ...what makes this one so much different to all of the others? ...just 'cause she's a Muslim? Others who've been killed have been Christians ...so what?

The woman was from an area with a large Muslim community, she was wearing the hijab, the traditional headdress for Muslim women, Christians don’t really have religious clothing that distinguishes them from Non-Christians.

Y'all and obviously some of the news media are just making this into something that it's not ...just for the hype of it all? ...to sell newspapers and advertising?

Newspapers are supposed to report the news! If an innocent women is shot in the head infront of her 3 yr old kid then I think people would want to know. Advertising? For what? Kevlar? Plane tickets out of America?

How many people are randomly killed in drive-by-style shootings every day?

In the US? God knows. In England I would say 0. In the rest of Europe, again I would say its very, very, low. It doesn’t happen everyday, people don’t just get shot.

What a load of crap. A perfect example of why Islam is so dangerous. Muslims begin making wild accusations and assumptions and will then turn to Islam to justify revenge.

Clearly, Hamza Yusuf if anything but a scholar or leader.

Tosh.

Alia Ansari migrated from war-torn Afghanistan at the age of 17. When her father died shortly thereafter, she became a second parent to her younger siblings. A life of hardship could not suppress her inner beauty, expressed most readily in an irrepressible smile. Her husband, Ahmadullah Ansari, an auto mechanic struggling to make ends meet for a family that includes six young children, five of them girls, spoke glowingly of Alia’s martyrdom and the place God has reserved for her in Heaven. Her story impressed on me the truth embodied in the words of a poet who said, “Be yourself beautiful, and you will find the world full of beauty.”

Her husband, contrary to the caricature of the vindictive, hateful, enraged Muslim, mentioned how the family did not wish her martyrdom be treated as a hate crime, because he did not want her death to be a source of agitation in the area’s large Muslim community. He also mentioned that the family would not want the murderer executed, because that would not bring his wife back. His wife was a martyr, her place in Paradise secure—for him that was enough.

His gentle voice was most emphatic when he mentioned that he did not want his wife’s death to be politicized. Rather, he wanted her spirit of love and reconciliation to prevail after her passing as it had during her life. He spoke of his desire that her funeral be a solemn service, where people of all faiths could gather to remind each other just how important it is to work to remove the pernicious stain of racial and religious hatred from this society lest it lead to ever deepening spirals of senseless violence.

As we sat on the floor of their sparsely furnished living room to eat a meal of traditional Afghan food, our gathering was overseen by four walls decorated with only an unframed picture of the Ka’aba, and a tapestry with Ayatu Kursi, the Qur’anic Verse of the Throne (2:255), printed on it. Husband, brothers, and cousins gathered around to tell me more about just who Alia Ansari was. They spoke proudly of a deeply religious individual who embodied the true spirit of the “Ansar,” the Helpers. The original Ansar were those Muslims in Medina who welcomed into their city and homes the faithful believers who had migrated from Mecca, fleeing the persecution of that city’s population. The Qur’an mentions the spirit the Ansar exhibited in the following terms:

http://www.zaytuna.org/articleDetails.asp?articleID=108

Not in the slightest. Sam, you're one of the brightest people on here. That mountainhare should choose to associate with you is...well, repulsive.

I honestly wish you well, Sam. At the same time, I cannot help but be outraged at the excesses of islam, and I probably will continue reporting on them in my sarcastic manner. I think of you as a true reformer; I have no hope for your mission but I think muslims need it. I will say this: preach to your coreligionists. I, conversely, am already in the choir.

I am not blind to the excesses that people commit in the name of Islam and I do speak out against them. I think any ideology worth its salt should be able to withstand scrutiny don't you?

I disagree with some of the methods employed for such "education" and I especially do NOT believe that anyone can be forced to change their ways, not at the level where their mindset would be reflective of their actions. I feel education and openness in dialogue is the best way to put a point across. It is slow but it was slow in the West for hundreds of years till the women got their voice in. Educating one woman educates a whole family and I believe that even in Islam, it is up to the women to pave the way for reform.

Thanks for the (qualified) vote of confidence though.:)


As for 'limits', that was rather a ruse. My apologies for that and the shot.


It was pretty transparent and if not for moutainhare I would have called you on it. :p

Tosh.

"Her husband, contrary to the caricature of the vindictive, hateful, enraged Muslim, mentioned how the family did not wish her martyrdom be treated as a hate crime, because he did not want her death to be a source of agitation in the area’s large Muslim community. He also mentioned that the family would not want the murderer executed, because that would not bring his wife back. His wife was a martyr, her place in Paradise secure—for him that was enough."

Peter?

The words in the above paragraph glorify the crime as a special 'hate crime' in that the husband now considers her a martyr. He is a hypocrite. You just made my point.

I am not blind to the excesses that people commit in the name of Islam and I do speak out against them. I think any ideology worth its salt should be able to withstand scrutiny don't you?

Of course, but Islam does not withstand scrutiny on many levels, including the level set by Islam itself, that of it being blasphemous to scrutinize it at all. How very hypocritical of you.

And if you actually were speaking out against it, that would be evident.

Educating one woman educates a whole family and I believe that even in Islam, it is up to the women to pave the way for reform.

Of course, that isn't likely to happen anytime soon within any Muslim state.

Of course, but Islam does not withstand scrutiny on many levels, including the level set by Islam itself, that of it being blasphemous to scrutinize it at all. How very hypocritical of you.

And if you actually were speaking out against it, that would be evident.

Of course, that isn't likely to happen anytime soon within any Muslim state.

Your comprehension skills leave much to be desired.

Then again, they are in all probability, just merely reflective of your blinkered vision.

Your comprehension skills leave much to be desired.

Then again, they are in all probability, just merely reflective of your blinkered vision.

Your inability to debate and only respond with insults has been noted.

Your wishy-washy platitudes for Islamic reform are as credible and pointless as the Islamic propaganda you bombard these forums with every day.

Your inability to debate and only respond with insults has been noted.

Your wishy-washy platitudes for Islamic reform are as credible and pointless as the Islamic propaganda you bombard these forums with every day.

:rolleyes: Ya right.

This from the one who writes religion related posts even in the Biology forum.

I'm not surprised you can't tell which is which anymore.

At least I have interests which extend beyond religion.

:rolleyes: Ya right.

This from the one who writes religion related posts even in the Biology forum.

I'm not surprised you can't tell which is which anymore.

At least I have interests which extend beyond religion.

Your assertions will never stand up to the evidence of your posts.

Your assertions will never stand up to the evidence of your posts.

I'm not gonna quake in fear over that.

I have previous experience of your "research". :D

I'm not gonna quake in fear over that.

I have no doubt you'll continue to fulfill your obligations; your status quo.

I have no doubt you'll continue to fulfill your obligations; your status quo.

Obligations? Status quo?

This is a discussion forum not the Presidential election.

You really ought to loosen up, you're turning into a TDM.

The words in the above paragraph glorify the crime as a special 'hate crime' in that the husband now considers her a martyr. He is a hypocrite.That reasoning is faulty. Proclaiming someone a "martyr" does not imply that the cause of her death was a hate crime.

A martyr dies for a cause. Her cause could simply be the need for Americans to be a whole lot less violent. As someone pointed out earlier, she could have been caught in the crossfire of a gang war, by a badly aimed mob hit, in the path of an errant bullet fired by accident, or by an angry wife shooting her unfaithful husband with a gun too big for the job so the bullet came out his back and continued through a wall and into the street. Things like that really do happen all the time.

I think instead of arguing over his choice of semantics during a moment of stress, we should all bow in humility to this man. How many of us could resist the temptation to say something divisive and inflammatory in his situation? If the heart of every Muslim, Jew and Christian could be so filled with peace and brotherhood during the most horrible moment in their lives, people like me would have to stop complaining about them and be respectful.

I'm not gonna quake in fear over that.

I have previous experience of your "research". :D


Research? this fucknut Q is like a arm chair general.

This kind doesn't have any other source of information but the internet. They think they have seen the world and know the world....cause its on the internet. Very sad.

It is a hate crime, there is no question about it.

I wonder if this incident will get as much attention as the woman who was shot?

Man held over 'racial' hit-and-run killing

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1934558,00.html


David Lees had stopped at a garage with a group of friends in the Prestwich area early yesterday morning. They became involved in a row with a group of Asians. Police said the row escalated and Mr Lees was run over.

That reasoning is faulty. Proclaiming someone a "martyr" does not imply that the cause of her death was a hate crime.

A martyr dies for a cause. Her cause could simply be the need for Americans to be a whole lot less violent.

If that was in fact his intent, then I'm wrong.

Research? this fucknut Q is like a arm chair general.

This kind doesn't have any other source of information but the internet. They think they have seen the world and know the world....cause its on the internet. Very sad.

And I love you too. We'll be seeing more of you, I'm sure. :D

And for the record, I've backpacked most of Europe, Asia and Africa for well over three years.

You really ought to loosen up, you're turning into a TDM.

I can only assume from your posts that 'loosening up' involves the suspension of disbelief.

It is a hate crime, there is no question about it.

Well, then: so is the story Stuart posted. And the one about the muslim who broke into a Jewish woman's centre and shot half a dozen people (including a pregnant woman), killing one. And the American jihadi who drove his truck into a crowd of innocent university students.

There are, of course, others. Let's apply the same standards throughout, then, if you please.

I can only assume from your posts that 'loosening up' involves the suspension of disbelief.

I give up. Henceforth I shall be prosaic and pedantic in our communications. :(

And for the record, I've backpacked most of Europe, Asia and Africa for well over three years.

Don't mean that you saw or know any more about anything than anyone else. Just walking around a country don't mean anything. In fact, someone who's read, studied a lot and watched the news might know a helluva lot more than someone who's been out walkin' around the world.

Baron Max

Don't mean that you saw or know any more about anything than anyone else. Just walking around a country don't mean anything. In fact, someone who's read, studied a lot and watched the news might know a helluva lot more than someone who's been out walkin' around the world.

Possibly, but highly unlikely. Living with people and watching them on TV are two completely different things.

It is a hate crime, there is no question about it.Huh? From what information did you deduce that? According to what's been posted here, there aren't even any clues as to who did it, much less their motivation. I don't think I'm missing anything because previous posters have also alluded to the perfectly reasonable possibility that she was an accidental victim of a bullet meant for someone else, or even a bullet that was not fired intentionally.

Huh? From what information did you deduce that? According to what's been posted here, there aren't even any clues as to who did it, much less their motivation. I don't think I'm missing anything because previous posters have also alluded to the perfectly reasonable possibility that she was an accidental victim of a bullet meant for someone else, or even a bullet that was not fired intentionally.

I don't know the cause but it does not seem accidental. According to the San Francisco Chronicle, witnesses saw a man get out of a car and shoot her at point blank range before getting into the car and driving away.

edit:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/21/BAGMTLTGM51.DTL

So either he was planning to shoot a random muslim women (hate crime), or he was looking for her in particular (premeditated murder)?

So either he was planning to shoot a random muslim women (hate crime), or he was looking for her in particular (premeditated murder)?

Apparently.

So either he was planning to shoot a random muslim women (hate crime), or he was looking for her in particular (premeditated murder)?

Or he was just seeking to shoot SOMEONE and she happened to be the unlucky one that was close at the time.

Just so y'all know, there are a tremendous number of murders that are simply random shootings or drive-by shooting ...with no relation to anything except the shooter wanted to shoot something/someone.

Baron Max

Or he was just seeking to shoot SOMEONE and she happened to be the unlucky one that was close at the time.

Just so y'all know, there are a tremendous number of murders that are simply random shootings or drive-by shooting ...with no relation to anything except the shooter wanted to shoot something/someone.

Baron Max

You must live in a very strange place.

You must live in a very strange place.

Huh? You've never heard of random, drive-by shootings occuring in the USA? If not, where in hell do YOU live? And don't they have news shows there????

Baron Max

Huh? You've never heard of random, drive-by shootings occuring in the USA? If not, where in hell do YOU live? And don't they have news shows there????

Baron Max

Not with the frequency that you appear to encounter them.

Just so y'all know, there are a tremendous number of murders that are simply random shootings or drive-by shooting ...

Not with the frequency that you appear to encounter them.

Sam, the USA is a very, very big fuckin' country ...with lots and lots of people. One drive-by shooting in each large city means a lot of killings over the entire nation!

What's the matter with your logic these days, Sam? Or are you just baiting me so I'll fly off the handle, then get banned again? If you don't want me to repond to you, Sam, just say so.

Baron Max

Sam, the USA is a very, very big fuckin' country ...with lots and lots of people. One drive-by shooting in each large city means a lot of killings over the entire nation!

What's the matter with your logic these days, Sam? Or are you just baiting me so I'll fly off the handle, then get banned again? If you don't want me to repond to you, Sam, just say so.

Baron Max

So when you say tremendous number of drive by shootings, what is your estimate of the figures?

So when you say tremendous number of drive by shootings, what is your estimate of the figures?

You're just baiting me, Sam, you can read just as well as I can.

Baron Max

Ignore her Baron - she's just trying to wind you up.

You're just baiting me, Sam, you can read just as well as I can.

Baron Max

No really, I was under the impression that such statistics were corrected for population, so I would like to know what your estimate of the rate is. Since I haven't been able to find any statistics online.

No really, I was under the impression that such statistics were corrected for population, so I would like to know what your estimate of the rate is. Since I haven't been able to find any statistics online.



Wow - that must be a first, or a lie.

Have you checked your favourite online encyclopedia WIKI yet? :D

Little miss innocent eh?

No really, I was under the impression that such statistics were corrected for population, so I would like to know what your estimate of the rate is. Since I haven't been able to find any statistics online.

"...I was under the impression that such statistics were corrected for population,..."

Corrected for population??? What the fuck does that mean?

Baron Max

Baron, it doesn't seem to me like Sam is baiting you. She's just asking for a source for your claim.

Wow - that must be a first, or a lie.

Have you checked your favourite online encyclopedia WIKI yet? :D

Little miss innocent eh?

Easily remedied by you providing the statistics yourself then, right?

"...I was under the impression that such statistics were corrected for population,..."

Corrected for population??? What the fuck does that mean?

Baron Max

Exactly what it says.

Corrected for the population. Per 100,000 people.

I work with demographic statistics. It is the primary rule in population statistics to correct for population by percent or per 100,000.

Baron, it doesn't seem to me like Sam is baiting you.

Yeah, I admit that she's pretty damned good at hiding it!

Baron Max

Easily remedied by you providing the statistics yourself then, right?


Ok doke - just over 300,000,000 people in the USA - lolol :D


Haven't you heard the phrase "Shoot at random"

I'd hate to live in Random. :)

Ok doke - just over 300,000,000 people in the USA - lolol :D


Haven't you heard the phrase "Shoot at random"

I'd hate to live in Random. :)

Yet another smartass adolescent :rolleyes:

Yet another smartass adolescent :rolleyes:


When you start talking sense you will recieve appropiate replies

When you start talking sense you will recieve appropiate replies

So asking someone the source of his figures is not sense?

And talking smartass is? :rolleyes:

So lets look at the possibility of honor killing? this should not be ruled out, the killer seem to target her, stopped and killed her in front or her 3yr. old. This seems to be one of the things that happen in Islamic families, quite often, and is not unknown to happen here.

So lets look at the possibility of honor killing? this should not be ruled out, the killer seem to target her, stopped and killed her in front or her 3yr. old. This seems to be one of the things that happen in Islamic families, quite often, and is not unknown to happen here.



That is quite possible Buffalo - or - perhaps she was intending to leave Islam, the penalty is death isn't it?

stu43t, that's what it seems to be from everything else that I see in the fatwa's that have been issued, and quotes from the Q'uran from many a Imam.

Judge without facts? I presume you've been following the debate?

Ghost would have opined how people following the 'right' islam, the 'real' islam - you know, like our good friends at the MCB (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2425971,00.html) - would never support such a thing, and how only radicals would make such statements. Sam would tell us that such an opinion is not really islamic.


Dear geoff

i hope all is well with you and that your weekend was good.

I never heard him mention this before my post.

Except, of course, that there are many muslims today who agree quite strongly with this purported 'fringe'.
Best to you,

Geoff

Do you have any figures to back this up, and if you are going t refer to surverys, please post the questions, the demographic pool surveyed and the timing of the survey etc...

~~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

. All crimes are hate crimes regardless of who the victim.

Good Morning Q

thank you for your post

Really, thats news to me!! I doubt even a psychologist could come to that conclusion.. I would have assumed that different cimes have different motives.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

One incident out of millions of Muslims, OMG it's an epidemic.

Really, thats news to me!! I doubt even a psychologist could come to that conclusion.. I would have assumed that different cimes have different motives.

Could you provide examples of crimes which don't involve hate?

Theft, for one.

Could you provide examples of crimes which don't involve hate?

Hi Q

Ok i could steal my neighbours garden gnome, doesnot mean i hate them, i just want there gnome.

Alternatively, i could nick a car does not mean i hate the owner just meant i wanted to go joy rding...

~~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

Theft, for one.

DUI, for two.

Sabotage, for three.

some murder may also have nothing to mdo with hate, just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Hijacking (seizure of coach), for four.

Sorry guys, all of your examples involve hate.

Generally as far as "the law" is concerned, hate crimes = bias crimes.