I'm still new to this forum concept so if I've misunderstood, please move this thread to Religion.


Muslim influence can sometimes be found far from Arabia. The first book of Eastern European Hasidism, Toledot Yaakov Yosef by Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye, disciple of the Baal Shem Tov (1780) twice includes the saying: “The wise man has said: You have returned from the minor war, now prepare yourselves for the major war”. That is, prepare for spiritual struggle which is more important than any material struggle.

This is a well-known Sufi saying, usually attributed to Muhammad. It probably found its way into Hasidic tradition through its appearance in Rabbenu Bachya’s Duties of the Heart. Rabbenu Bachya included many Sufi teachings and stories in his work, ascribing them to anonymous sages.

The boundaries between Judaism and Islam were not rigid in early times. There were Jewish converts to Islam. Muslim sources also mention a Jewish movement which accepted Muhammad as a prophet and the Quran as scripture. These Jews were still not Muslims since they did not consider themselves bound by the obligations of Islam (such as praying 5 times a day or making the pilgrimage to Mecca). The fact that, with the spread of Islam, Arabic became the language of the Middle East, North Africa and Spain, including the Jews of those countries, facilitated cultural cross-influences. For several centuries, most Jewish writing in those regions, both secular and religious, was in Arabic (though it was Jewish Arabic, written in Hebrew letters), and was strongly influenced by Muslim culture which was responsible for the spreading of the Arabic language.

e.g. There was a tradition of Jewish thought which arose in a Muslim milieu and expressed itself principally in Judaeo-Arabic writings. Today this tradition usually goes under the name of medieval Jewish philosophy. Its representatives include Saadya Gaon, Bachya ibn Pakuda, Ibn Daud, and of course Judah Halevi and Moses Maimonides.

It is a well-known fact that the Jewish authors in question were, in general, students of the works of the Muslim Falasifa (philosophers) and acknowledged their debts to them. Moreover they frequently and candidly adopted their interpretations of the works of Plato and Aristotle.

There is an important difference, however. In Islam, especially Western Islam, where the Judaeo-Arabic tradition flourished, philosophical and exegetical literature were fairly distinct enterprises. In the West the preferred philosophic teacher was al-Farabi, whose works have extremely few Quranic references, and refer mainly to classical philosophy and the works of Plato and Aristotle.

By contrast, in the works of the Judaeo-Arabic philosophers, Scripture and its exegesis play an important role.


There are some important differences between Jewish Sufism and its Islamic models. In Muslim Sufism the ultimate aim is to achieve union with God. The Jewish sources instead emphasize prophecy as the ultimate goal. The chasidim often referred to themselves as ‘b’nei hanevi’im’, the disciples of the Prophets. This seems to be associated with the belief mentioned by Maimonides that the gift of prophecy was soon to be renewed among the children of Israel. It could not have been an idea held by Muslim Sufis, for whom the cycle of prophecy had been terminated with Muhammed


Paul Fenton, “Judaeo-Arabic Mystical Writings of the XIIIth-XIVth Centuries”, in Golb, Judaeo-Arabic Studies (1997), 89
Hillel Fradkin, “Philosophy or Exegesis” in Golb, 103-105

Time-line:

by c. 500 BCE – completion of most books of the Hebrew Bible
70 CE – destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem by the Romans
c. 220 – completion of the Mishnah, founding text of Rabbinic Judaism, including Pirkei Avot, a collection of ethical sayings
by c. 400 – completion of the Jerusalem Talmud and early Midrashim
c. 571 – birth of Muhammad
c. 600 – completion of the Babylonian Talmud
c. 610 – first revelations of the Quran to Muhammad
622 – Muhammad’s journey from Mecca to Medina (both now in Saudi Arabia), the Hejira. Muhammad assumes leadership of Medina. Year One in the Muslim calendar.
632 – death of Muhammad
633-642 – Arab/Muslim conquest of Syria (including Palestine), Iraq and Egypt
711-712 – Muslim conquest of Spain
928-942 – in Iraq, Saadya Gaon writes his Arab translation of the Bible and other works
1038-56 – Samuel ibn Naghrela serves as vizier of Granada, high point of Jewish power in Muslim Spain
c. 1080 – in Spain, Rabbenu Bachya ibn Pakuda writes Duties of the Heart in Arabic
1085 – first beginnings of Christian reconquest of Spain
c. 1139 – in Spain, Judah HaLevi writes the Kuzari in Arabic
1190 – in Egypt, Maimonides writes Guide for the Perplexed in Arabic
1204 – death of Maimonides; his son R. Avraham ben haRambam succeeds him as leader 1200s and 1300s – Maimonides’ son and descendants, leaders of Egyptian Jewry, promote a Jewish version of Sufism as the best path of Jewish piety
1492 – final completion of Christian reconquest of Spain, expulsion of Jews and Muslims

http://post.queensu.ca/%7Ejjl/islam.html

Paul Fenton??? never heard of him.

Paul Fenton??? never heard of him.

You're not looking in the right places.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=pBe&q=JSTOR+%22Paul+fenton%22&btnG=Search

Thank's but it is not something i would look for. Did you produce the part above the timeline yourself?

If you did i will pay closer attention and read it again, can you possibly summarize it?

On a quick read through i was able to deduce that old jewish guys consulted old arab ones.

Thank you.

Thank's but it is not something i would look for. Did you produce the part above the timeline yourself?

If you did i will pay closer attention and read it again, can you possibly summarize it?

On a quick read through i was able to deduce that old jewish guys consulted old arab ones.

Thank you.

Duh, I'm not so good as that. :)

Its an article I came across in a blog I read regularly and I thought it was interesting enough to share, so I selected the parts I thought interesting and removed as much bias as I could.:o

The link is at the end.

actually, the similarities between sufi islam and judaism are staggering.

(maimonides is one of my favorites) :)

you should also look into moses de leon, sam. he wrote (allegedly) one of the jewish texts that sort of "bridge the gap" between islam and judaism, the zohar.
you will feel like you are reading a muslim text. :)

actually, the similarities between sufi islam and judaism are staggering.

(maimonides is one of my favorites) :)

you should also look into moses de leon, sam. he wrote (allegedly) one of the jewish texts that sort of "bridge the gap" between islam and judaism, the zohar.
you will feel like you are reading a muslim text. :)

Thanks, I'll look out for him.:)

actually, the similarities between sufi islam and judaism are staggering.

In particular, is there a connection between:

Sufism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism)
Hasidism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism)
Quakerism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Society_of_Friends)

I think the last had a saying "hands to work, hearts to God", but I may be confusing them with the Shakers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers) . . .

I think the last had a saying "hands to work, hearts to God", but I may be confusing them with the Shakers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers) . . .

indeed, this sounds like a quaker saying.

How is this science? Apart from forensic anthropology, anthropology isn't exactly science. Some dude discovers a piece of ancient settlement and uses clues to claim its part of a certain civilization. Keep in mind there is no real data to affirm his claims; too many variables. This is why anthropology is and can be argued whether its science or not. As for anything religion, thats just not science, religion is not something quantitative, there is no verifiable method. Separation of church and state, separation of religion and science. If religion is now science, then what is the point of it?

How is this science? Apart from forensic anthropology, anthropology isn't exactly science. Some dude discovers a piece of ancient settlement and uses clues to claim its part of a certain civilization. Keep in mind there is no real data to affirm his claims; too many variables. This is why anthropology is and can be argued whether its science or not. As for anything religion, thats just not science, religion is not something quantitative, there is no verifiable method. Separation of church and state, separation of religion and science. If religion is now science, then what is the point of it?

there is already a thread on this subject in "site feedback". please take your grievance there.

Some more interesting parallels and contrasts

http://www.houseofdavid.ca/isl_jud.htm

Probably the only major Islamic belief that Judaism would find unpalatable would be the recognition of Muhammad as the last and greatest of the prophets.
for the most part, this is correct.

for the most part, this is correct.

That claim is not entirely accurate; according to Surah al-Baqarah 2:285

"We make no distinction among any of His messengers"

That claim is not entirely accurate; according to Surah al-Baqarah 2:285

"We make no distinction among any of His messengers"

well...in practice, you and i both know that isnt true. :)
regardless, it is actually hard to differentiate the 2 religions' dogma aside from the veneration of mohammed, at least in my experience.

well...in practice, you and i both know that isnt true. :)
regardless, it is actually hard to differentiate the 2 religions' dogma aside from the veneration of mohammed, at least in my experience.

I find it incredible that most Muslims have read the Hadith which says that Muhammed did not want his sayings/actions recorded and see no contradiction in recording that statement.

I think the popularity of the hadith has made the Prophet more venerable, plus most Muslims ignore all the verses that say he is just a man, a messenger, etc and focus on him as a symbol of the religion. The Quran does not justify this behaviour in any way.

I find it incredible that most Muslims have read the Hadith which says that Muhammed did not want his sayings/actions recorded and see no contradiction in recording that statement.

I think the popularity of the hadith has made the Prophet more venerable, plus most Muslims ignore all the verses that say he is just a man, a messenger, etc and focus on him as a symbol of the religion. The Quran does not justify this behaviour in any way.

well, my lady and i have had conversations about this topic.
i have told her that i dont want to do any writings on religious subjects anymore, because you never know what somebody will do to your words 100 years from now.

i had about half a book on esoteric judaism written, and i stopped because of it.

*shrug*

well, my lady and i have had conversations about this topic.
i have told her that i dont want to do any writings on religious subjects anymore, because you never know what somebody will do to your words 100 years from now.

i had about half a book on esoteric judaism written, and i stopped because of it.

*shrug*

Writing about religion is good, I think, reading people's perspectives about how they view faith (even atheists) is important. I don't think you should abandon your writing. As it is, the internet is full of crap about religion. We need a few good men out there too.:)

Writing about religion is good, I think, reading people's perspectives about how they view faith (even atheists) is important. I don't think you should abandon your writing. As it is, the internet is full of crap about religion. We need a few good men out there too.:)
well, i think that my potential for severe damage is larger than my potential to help, so ill leave it alone.

:) doesnt keep me from my own personal writings though.
give me a shout and ill send you some of it if you want.

well, i think that my potential for severe damage is larger than my potential to help, so ill leave it alone.

:) doesnt keep me from my own personal writings though.
give me a shout and ill send you some of it if you want.

You write well and even if you decide not to publish you should keep at it.

Send me it, I love reading on religion and I know so little about Judaism.:)

You write well and even if you decide not to publish you should keep at it.

Send me it, I love reading on religion and I know so little about Judaism.:)

im a habitual comma abuser.
:)

I find it incredible that most Muslims have read the Hadith which says that Muhammed did not want his sayings/actions recorded and see no contradiction in recording that statement.

I think the popularity of the hadith has made the Prophet more venerable, plus most Muslims ignore all the verses that say he is just a man, a messenger, etc and focus on him as a symbol of the religion. The Quran does not justify this behaviour in any way.

Then there are all those Muslims who like to kill for god :rolleyes:

Then there are all those Muslims who like to kill for god

You know them personally I take it.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

My bad. I don't know them personally, so they don't exist.
lol

Yeah thats the truth.

They hate us because of our FREEDOM!:D

....
Sam, you're missing the point.
You say "gee, isn't it funny that these Muslims aren't acting like Muslims, but think they are, and call themselves Muslims?"

To which I say "gee, isn't it?";) ;)

....
Sam, you're missing the point.
You say "gee, isn't it funny that these Muslims aren't acting like Muslims, but think they are, and call themselves Muslims?"

To which I say "gee, isn't it?";) ;)

Yeah I'm sure if the Chinese found a weapon that would neutralise all the nuclear weapons in the US and then landed with a HUGE army in America and the opportunists became their best friends, the Muslims would be the only ones fighting back.;)

Yeah I'm sure if the Chinese found a weapon that would neutralise all the nuclear weapons in the US and then landed with a HUGE army in America and the opportunists became their best friends, the Muslims would be the only ones fighting back.;)

:shrug:

(finally a chance to use the "sam, you so crazy!" emoticon!!)

:shrug:

(finally a chance to use the "sam, you so crazy!" emoticon!!)

Thats the point.

You can't imagine what its like because its not a situation you've ever faced
Go to war once and then I'll ask you again.:)

So to explain your first non sequitor you... give another non sequitor?

What do the Chinese have to do with this? You'll have to forgive my slow American brain.

So to explain your first non sequitor you... give another non sequitor?

What do the Chinese have to do with this? You'll have to forgive my slow American brain.

I selected someone culturally different who would have the US screaming, "they hate us because of our FREEEEDOM".:eek:

It's a possible analogy.
Now please try to stick to the original topic.
This thread is not about USA vs Muslims.

Sorry.

Perhaps this topic should be renamed in reverse order!

In the Hejaz, Muhammad’s homeland, there were Jewish tribes with which he was intimately involved as he was, to a lesser extent, with Christian Arabs. Muhammad learned much from the Jews and using Judaism as a base, developed his new faith Islam.

There was no Arabic translation of the Hebrew Bible at the time, but Arabian Jews were deeply immersed in the mainstream of the Jewish midrashic tradition. Thus, in the Koran, many of the stories of the Hebrew Bible are retold in the form known from midrashim which diverges widely from the simple meaning of the biblical text. Many Jewish teachings, sayings, normative and ethical precepts are also found in the sacred oral tradition of Islam

It is of interest to note that there are cases of Jewish ideas or practices entering Islam, being changed and then returned to Judaism. Thus the Talmudic idea of kavannah (praying or doing a ritual act with conscious intent) entered Islam which invented ritual kavannah formulations and these in turn, in Hebrew garb, were reintroduced into Judaism by Jewish mystics.

Don't forget they both practice male genital mutilation as a seal of legions with a so called loving God!!!

Considering most of the qu`ran is badly plagiarised Torah and Christian scriptures. I find this thread amusing.

im a habitual comma abuser.
:)

Just finished reading the one on Heaven and Hell; you're an excellent writer, very clear and articulate. There are striking similarities with Islam.

Like this:

The reality of heaven and hell that has been set forth by the Holy Quran has not been set forth by any other book. It has indicated plainly that this system starts in this very life. It is said: For him who fears to stand before his Lord, there are two Gardens (55:47) One Garden is obtained in this very world. The fear of God restrains a person from vice. To run after vice generates a restlessness and distress in the heart which is a fearful hell. He who fears God avoids vice and escapes the torment which is generated by the slavery of passion and he makes progress towards faithfulness and leaning towards God whereby he is bestowed a delight and joy and thus his heavenly life begins in this very world
(Malfoozat, Vol. III, pp. I55- 156).

Thus as God Almighty has likened the words of faith of this world to the trees of paradise, He has likened the words of faithlessness of this world to the tree of hell and has indicated that the root of heaven or hell begins from this world. At another place hell is referred to as the blazing fire of Allah which mounts upon the hearts (104:8), that is to say, hell is a fire the source of which is the wrath of God. It blazes forth from sin and first overcomes the heart. This is an indication that at the root of this fire are the sorrows and desires and torments that seize the heart, inasmuch as spiritual torment begins with the heart and then comprises the whole body. At another place it is said: Its fuel are men and stones (2:25; 66:7); that is to say, the fuel of the fire of hell which keeps it blazing are first those men who turn aside from God and worship other things, as it is said: You and that which you worship beside Allah are the fuel of hell (21:99). Secondly, the fuel of hell are the idols. The meaning is that if these things had not existed there would have been no hell. Thus in the holy word of God, heaven and hell are not like this physical world. The source of both of them are spiritual matters. It is true that in the other world they will appear as physical, but they will not belong to this physical world
(Islami Usul ki Philosophy; Now printed in Ruhani Khazain (London, 1984), Vol. 10, pp. 7I-79).


God Almighty says in the Holy Quran: He who is blind in this world shall be blind in the hereafter and even more astray (I7:73). This shows that a person takes with him from this world the eyes with which to behold God Almighty and the senses with which to perceive Him. He who does not acquire these senses in this life will not enjoy them in the hereafter. This is a mystery which is not understood by the common people. If its meaning is not that which we have set forth, then it is entirely wrong that those who are blind in this world shall be blind in the hereafter. The truth is that to recognize God Almighty without any error and to acquire a true understanding of His attributes in this world is the key to all comforts and delights of the future. This verse clearly indicates that we carry a torment with us from this world and that the blind existence and foul actions of this world will appear in the form of the torment of hell in the other world and they will not be anything new. As by shutting the doors of a room a person deprives himself of light and of fresh life-giving air, or by swallowing a poison he puts an end to his life, in the same way, when he moves away from God and commits sin, he falls into a darkness and is involved in torment.

The meaning of the Arabic word for sin is to incline and to move away from the true centre. When a person moves away from God and withdraws from the light which descends upon the hearts from God, he is involved in a darkness which becomes a source of torment for him. Then he suffers the same type of torment of which type is his turning away. If he wishes to revert to the centre and transports himself to the spot where that light falls, he regains the light. As we observe in the world that we enjoy light in a room when we open its windows, in the same way, in the spiritual system to return to the true centre becomes the source of comfort and rescues from the suffering which had resulted from departing from the centre. This is called repentance. The darkness that is produced in this manner is called the misguidance of hell and to revert to the true centre which bestows comfort is called heaven. To move away from sin and to revert to virtue that would please God Almighty, becomes the atonement of the sin and wipes out its consequences. That is why God Almighty has said: Good does away with evil (11:115). As vice contains the poison of destruction and good contains the antidote of life, good alone is the means of overcoming the poison of vice. In other words, torment means the absence of comfort and salvation means the achievement of comfort and Joy.

The Essence of Islam: Volume Two
by Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

A bit more flowery than you but you get the essence of it.:)

Just finished reading the one on Heaven and Hell; you're an excellent writer, very clear and articulate. There are striking similarities with Islam.
:) im glad you were able to get through it. ive tried to share it with others, and they always said it was too dry. im happy you enjoyed it.

im sure you see why i cant post that kind of thing here.

:) im glad you were able to get through it. ive tried to share it with others, and they always said it was too dry. im happy you enjoyed it.

im sure you see why i cant post that kind of thing here.


I'm surprised anyone thought it dry.

I'm surprised anyone thought it dry.

well, mostly it was people that had no interest....i was in redneck rural illinois at the time i wrote all i sent you.

*shrug*

well, mostly it was people that had no interest....i was in redneck rural illinois at the time i wrote all i sent you.

*shrug*

In that case it makes perfect sense.:D

sam judaism dates back like 3000 years nearly as old as hinduism wich is 3500 years.


peace.

sam judaism dates back like 3000 years nearly as old as hinduism wich is 3500 years.


peace.

Er, yes, I know, I'm talking about the influences post Islam of course.:confused:

oh sorry that will teach me for not reading the actual post and going by the title alone.

i do that sometimes sorry.


peace.