It seems to me that the majority of people I know are missing a very obvious fact - music is sound. Recently this has become one of those annoying little things one obsesses over to me, and I can't seem to get over it. So many people I know - and quite likely this is because the majority of my circle is teenagers - are just plain out missing this fact. What do I mean?

Let me put it this way - why do you listen to the music you do? A few of you may be aware of the fact that I'm a phishhead, big into jam music in general, as well as huge into jazz - but I also love some classic rock, and do like some modern stuff and even some metal, some electronica, and of course classical. I'm not one of those jackasses who when you ask what they listen to they say "everything", but like many of us here on sciforums, I have not identified myself with any one musical culture.

Why?

Because I like what sounds good.

Is this unique?

I don't actually know. One thing to keep in mind through this whole mini-rant is that I'm not sure exactly how honest the people I'm talking about are or how simple minded they are, so I may be completely off base here. But the fact is I don't know that most people listen to what sounds good to them.

"I like their politics"
"I agree with the philosophy"
"They're expressing what I feel"
"I agree with the culture's goals/motives/feelings..."

We've all heard these sentances. I'm willing to bet anyone reading this has met someone who has stated they like a band for (at least in part) these reasons. But it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

I'll take Rage Against the Machine as an example. I use to love RAtM, and I still enjoy their music. I even agreed with a number of their political stances - but never once did I listen because I agreed. And I didn't stop listening because I disagreed. Their lyrics are largely politically driven, but who in fuck cares?

This is what I don't understand. I have met at least three people who have called themselves Rage fans largely for political reasons. Why??? Music is sound. What you like should be what sounds good to you! If you're looking for political discourse, don't listen to Zach scream "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me" thirty times - read a fucking essay! Or the newspaper. Or anyfuckingthing, but don't listen to a man shout slogans.

Because truly, that's all it is. In a 28 line song you cannot possibly expect a lyricist to state a position, logically prove it and defend it against possible arguements. At least not any valuable or original position. That's why people who are actually into politics don't write 28 line poems, they write essays and books. Zach screaming out anti-globalization lyrics is simply propoganda. It is willing propaganda. As opposed to a major corporation basically shouting "CONSUMERISM" you're hearing a millionaire singer shout "ANTI-CONSUMERISM". It is 100% the same.

Anyway, back to my original point - MUSIC IS SOUND!!!! Do not fucking listen to a band because you like what they stand for, listen to them because you like what sound they produce. Listening to music because you agree with the lyricists' political viewpoints is like loving Mulholland Drive because you agree with David Lynch that brocculi sucks (I actually disagree). It is the single least logical thing I can imagine.

Now, one rebuttal someone gave me to this point was that people who align music with politics do so because it is a way of expressing their individuality. She used a friend who's a metalhead as an example. No. Quite simply, no. Aligning yourself with a band for their politics is the polar opposite of individuality - it is trying to find people who think and feel somewhat like you and becoming part of a group. The opposite of individuality. Want to know what would be individuality? Taking the issue you think is important, researching it heavily and coming to a conclusion through research and analysis - not buying the album of a band because the singer expresses something similar to you.

Another rebuttal is that people are attracted to a sub-culture. Again, this is just heard mentality. The opposite of individuality, it is willingly submitting yourself to being a sheep.

I recently got in an arguement with one fellow phishhead who was talking about how Blink182 suck. I agree, they do. But he goes on to say "all popular music fucking sucks". Why? "Because it's popular". What a dumb thing to say. First of all, Phish are immensely popular; just because they don't get radio/tv play doesn't mean they don't have millions of fans. Second of all, not all popular music is necessarily bad. One other oddly hypocritical part of his statement was his fondness for Zeppelin. They were hugely popular in their day. It's not like Dec. 31st 1979 hit and all of a sudden it was a rule that anything people liked was necessarily bad. Such a goddamn narrow minded, self-righteous thing to say.

Punk. Don't even get me started on punk. There was a commercial here in Canada for the hard rock/punk music station (MuchLoud) where a guy with a mohawk et al is standing on a busy street next to some business men. Then the words appear; "stand alone in a crowd" and "be different" and shit like that.

i) yes, "be different" by looking exactly the same as everyone else in another sub-culture - fucking brilliant
ii) what the hell should the music have to do with the politics?

You know what, I've basically realized my whole problem with other people my age now is self-righteousness. Like those little shits that walk around with t-shirts with political slogans on them. Why? There are only two possible reasons I can come up:

i) to try and create awareness of your cause and turn people
ii) to let everyone be aware of your political stance

If (i) - what stupidity. For starters, I highly doubt someone who's not already on your side will be persuaded by the little slogan on your fucking t-shirt. And if they're that easily convinced, do you really want them? What ignorant and dumbass little shits they must be if a t-shirt convinces them.

If (ii) - that's just sad. Self-righteous fucks who think their opinion is so important that other people should care what it is.


But goddamn it, music is sound. If one more jackass tells me they like a band for their politics I'm gonna gouge out my own eyes. Do you enjoy an apple because apple trees are pretty? No, you enjoy an apple because it tastes good. You enjoy music because it sounds good. That's all their fucking is too it.

I believe people that give those reasons for liking the music they like because the music those people listen to invariably sounds like shit. They couldn't possibly like it for the way it sounds.
I like music for the way it sounds and low and behold I listen to pop because it clearly sounds the best. Oh and I like tenacious D for their comedy, plus it is bearable to listen to.

But other than that, I only go by what sounds good and without fail that lands me on totally uncool pop music.
Infact the "message" of the music I'm usually listening to will not only be something I disagree with but something that makes me furiously angry when I hear people trying to voice it.

But if the music sounds good I just don't care because its only music which only has one purpose and that happens to be to sound good. I go to television, movies and books if I want to hear opinions I agree with. Because they have the time to say something meaningful.
Actually I hate it when song lyrics try to be any more than light shallow catchy words to go with the music.

I think most people listen to the music they listen to so they can say they listen to that music to other people and if its obscure(and shit) enough they think the person they are telling will think that they are deep thoughtful hip human beings.

Originally posted by Tyler
But goddamn it, music is sound. If one more jackass tells me they like a band for their politics I'm gonna gouge out my own eyes. Do you enjoy an apple because apple trees are pretty? No, you enjoy an apple because it tastes good. You enjoy music because it sounds good. That's all their fucking is too it.

Seems a bit myopic to me.
Music IS sound, true.
But if it were as simple and clear cut as that, wouldn't everyone enjoy the same music?
Let's take the population of people who only listen to music for the sound and nothing more... Wouldn't THEY all enjoy the same music?
Of course not.
The reaction you have to music is the same as the reaction you have to any art form.
It is a reflection of you, your life, your beliefs, your past experiences...
Is a painting nothing more than a pretty picture and pleasing color coordination?
If you think so, then you are really missing out.

Even if music is nothing more than sound, a song (a good song) is often much more than just the music.
The lyrics are most often just as important (if not more important) than the lyrics.
It is poetry set to music.
Even if it has no lyrics, it often tells a story.
It is a form of artistic expression - the artist expressing emotions.
If you listen to it with an aim to experience the emotions the artist was trying to express, it can be an entirely different experience.

You said you are a fan of Jazz.
When you listen to it, do you just listen to the music and enjoy the pleasing sounds, or does it make you feel something?
What about the musicians (such as Thelonius Monk) who's music is rife with dischordant sound?
Do you appreciate that music?

Is a novel nothing more than words placed together to convey a specific idea?
Or is it a form of art and poetic expression of emotions, thoughts and experiences?

I can't help but feel pity for people that only listen to music for the sounds and want nothing more from thier music than pretty sounds to dance to.

Do you think that's what Mozart was?

I listen to music that I feel a connection with.
Sometimes it is just musical, sometimes it is just emotional, sometimes it is the way the artist chose to express something that I feel, sometimes it is political, sometimes it is something else altogether.

And I respect artists that utilize the mass-audience appeal of music to get across a social or political message in an effort to effect the lives of those that are willing to listen and if they do that with pleasing sound and admirable musical talent and ability, it is just that much better (Megadeath, TOOL and ani difranco immediately come to mind).

Tyler , you say...." You enjoy music because it sounds good. That's all their fucking is too it."

But some people like different things and sometimes the lyrics are what they like to listen to instead of just the sounds. Lyrics are very important to some people and those people would like to hear what others have to say rather than the sounds that they play. Different strokes for different folks. That is why variety is all around us and why we need to listen to many styles of music, not only for sounds but for content too.

Sometimes it's music with some words attached to it and sometimes it's poetry with some sound attached to it.

A lot of people do it to appear cool. And god knows, I've been ridiculed for my taste in music. Weezer as an example. Most of their lyrics are gay as hell, and people are *afraid* to like them for that reason. No matter how awesome the sound is. And they've made songs that rock hard.

Then, all of sudden, if you remember 2 years ago - 'Hash Pipe' comes along. It's a musical fortress with lyrics that aren't so gay. Maybe even 'cool'. People would tell me that its their only good song, and when I ask them why - 'because the rest of their songs are gay' ! These people can't even name two or three songs. And Island in the sun is always on that list.

I tried to introduce one of my most musically challenged friends to The Pixies, and he would not even listen to them because of the name. On another occasion, when I played one of their songs (unknown to him,) he asked me "who sings that," and after telling him 'the pixies' he's sighs, "oh..."

Same for Modest Mouse and a lot of other groups I listen to. Its absolutely pathetic. I just repeat to myself that if they'd rather listen to J Lo Eminem and Brittney, so be it. I tried. There's nothing anybody can do for them.

Anyways, my parents are yelling at me to get upstairs and entertain some guests..

Xerxes........ As I have said everyone has their own type of music that they like, as long as they listen to something it is better than them listening to nothing .....isn't it? Who are you to say what they should or should not listen to? I'm not being argumentitive only stating a fact that you should understand by now.

cosmic,

Yes. I have no problem with the personal tastes of other people, and honestly, I don't expect everyone to like the same music as me. The point you missed is that certain people (good friends* even,) are willing to overlook perfectly good music without giving it a try because of their image.

Example:

1) The Pixies
>My friend wouldn't even listen to them because of the name. When I randomly played a song of theirs that he liked, he was surprised to learn that it was by the Pixies, and kind of embarrased. He thought the name was too feminine..

2) People who like only one song from a certain band and without giving the other material a good listen, brush the rest away as crap. Not because of the music, but because of the image. Hash Pipe as the example that I used, but there are many examples in History
ie:
Marcy's Playground
White Town (Your woman,)

Its fair to not like more than one song from a band, just so long as its not based on image. And it is more often than not. Even I'm sometimes guilty.

If (ii) - that's just sad. Self-righteous fucks who think their opinion is so important that other people should care what it is.

*ahem*

No, you enjoy an apple because it tastes good. You enjoy music because it sounds good. That's all their fucking is too it.

MUSIC IS SOUND!!!! Do not fucking listen to a band because you like what they stand for, listen to them because you like what sound they produce. Listening to music because you agree with the lyricists' political viewpoints is like loving Mulholland Drive because you agree with David Lynch that brocculi sucks (I actually disagree). It is the single least logical thing I can imagine.

What you like should be what sounds good to you! If you're looking for political discourse, don't listen to Zach scream "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me" thirty times - read a fucking essay! Or the newspaper. Or anyfuckingthing, but don't listen to a man shout slogans.

For future purposes, it doesn't look so good stating such a point when the intial argument is laid out with such comments and suggestions that seem more like demands or orders.

Punk. Don't even get me started on punk. There was a commercial here in Canada for the hard rock/punk music station (MuchLoud) where a guy with a mohawk et al is standing on a busy street next to some business men. Then the words appear; "stand alone in a crowd" and "be different" and shit like that. i) yes, "be different" by looking exactly the same as everyone else in another sub-culture - fucking brilliant ii) what the hell should the music have to do with the politics?

This reminds of your other thread about fashion where Xev just plainly stated that true non-conformists don't make it habit to stick out, infact they blend in and it is very much true. I don't take those who go out of their way to be "individuals" seriously at all, infact it is just down right sad.

As for music and its implications as merely pleasing sounds or mind bending propaganda...well that all really plays down to who seeks what from music. You listen to it for the sound waves, ignoring the other content that may follow but others listen to it for explanations...to explain their lives, their shitty lives or shitty surroundings because to them some man on the mic can offer the answers in his pain.

Some listen because it all simply "relates"....because that man can say things you always wanted to say but could never put into words, things you were afraid to say but here comes this man who does it with no hesitence.

Some do it for the rush.....how the sounds effect them, release anger through thrash or get somber through trip-hop. Mood threapy of sorts.

And there are like me who do it for the imagery, the visuals songs provide for in your head.

To me it comes down to what you seek from music? Answers, support, a high, a release or whatever. To all of us music isn't just sound, to a lot of us it is something entirely more personal.

Music is sound....

Your ideas remind me of Woody Harleson and Wesley Snipes in White men can't jump, when the two get into a conversation about "hearing" and "listening" to Jimi Hendrix. The white-boy can listen to Hendrix, but the black guy can hear his music...something like that. Anyway..

I can level with you when you're talking about RATM and their political lyrics. I don't care what the message is of their music, it just sounds awesome. But I do know the crowd of people who take music as something that's idealistic and worth more than the it's aesthic pleasures.

Posted by Xerxes:
Do not fucking listen to a band because you like what they stand for, listen to them because you like what sound they produce
Music is sound. Music is also art. Do you know why a 2-year-old's fingerpainting isn't considered art, while something hanging in the New York Metropolitan Musuem of Art, which looks the same as the 2-year-old's, is considered a work of art? Art has meaning to it, more than the sensory aspects or aesthics of it. There are times when people like to take a break from analyzing art and just bask in its tangible pleasures. That's when music is sound. But there are times when people need something more than passively listening, or experiencing, music. There needs to be some thought-provication or ideal or moral controversy within the art. That's when music is more than sound, and that's when you get a person saying he or she likes a band because of what they stand for rather than how much that person actually enjoys the band's music.

And what the hell is "willing propaganda"? Isn't that also called independant research/study?
Posted by Dearprudence:
Oh -- I go by their artwork. If bands can't produce decent jacket-artwork, then forget it.
ehehe, I can't tell if that's sarcastic but that's the reason why CD prices are so high. The amount of 'fringe marketing' that goes into those prices is probably more than producing the actual music.