This is the second time in two weeks that failed attempts were made to kill Musharraf, how long do we give Mr. Musharraf before they succeed ???

Yes well he has not behaved very nicely, and though I have no specific information on the threat of the Pashtun tribes, the government (Musharaf himself) clearly shows to be very concerned if they would turn against them.

I don't think the effects of his potential assasination will be huge in the sense of a coup or anything in that nature, but the new general to be installed will either confront the tribes or back down for their wishes and confront USA. I think chances are slim there will come another Musharaf trying to balance somehwere in the middle, in the sphere of peace-keeping.

The sooner he dies the better......

The real question is whether or not the United States will occupy Pakistan by the end of 2004.

Originally posted by tiassa
The real question is whether or not the United States will occupy Pakistan by the end of 2004.

We might as well. Why not just go all the way? We all know that Osama is hiding somewhere there.

The real question is whether or not the United States will occupy Pakistan by the end of 2004.

Pakistan is not only more tribal then Iraq, it is posssibly even more militaristic, and surely more nationalist. The United States really cannot afford to invade or occupy Pakistan, and Pakistan is a nuclear state as well. The real question to be posed is will Pakistan become theocratic by the end of 2004?

And why would they become 'theocratic' ? Do you actually believe that some tribal Pashtun can replace an entire military regime ?

What has more weight in the scales for the average joe in Pakistan ? Kashmir or Allah ?

What's kashmir got to do with all of this ? There's no average Joe, there are over 150 million people from a great variety of ethnic groups.

And why would they become 'theocratic' ?

Well I don't think it would be a peaceful handover of power obviously, and no many Pakistani's may have their mis-givings for such a government, but the same could have been said for Iran in 1978.

Do you actually believe that some tribal Pashtun can replace an entire military regime ?

See I don't buy that, just because the Pashtun are the strongest supporters of a theocracy, we are dealing with 150 million ppl here, and there must be large pockets of support outside that community. I think it will become a rural vs. urban thing.

I think that Kashmir serves as a justification for the millitary regime to stay in power, somebody has to "defend" pakistan against the bad indians and who would be better at it than the millitary???

just like palestine is used by all kinds of parties in the region for other purposes than really giving peace to the people living in palestine or kashmir...

The fundies have realised how the millitary have played nationalistic feelings all these years and therefore have placed Kashmir even higher on their agenda than the pakistani government as a means to take wind out of the millitary sails and gain ground in the urban areas...


It is gonna be a long hot summer in pakistan.

Originally posted by Undecided
the same could have been said for Iran in 1978.

I would not make toomuch out of compares with Iran, Musharaf is not exactly the Shah and there was an actual Iranian foundation, here we speak basically of the Pashtun.

See I don't buy that, just because the Pashtun are the strongest supporters of a theocracy, we are dealing with 150 million ppl here, and there must be large pockets of support outside that community. I think it will become a rural vs. urban thing.

You have several wrong premisses, first of all :

* There is no desired 'theocracy' that is a western concept that has no political relevance in this instance. The Pashtun are not like any other Pakistani, and any other Pakistani is not like all other Pakistani either. There is not 1 system for which a certain ammount of people supports, there are certain groups of people that have their own system they can establish nationally or not.

* Rural and urban is another standard western idea of contrast, however when this relates to ethnicity the pictures becomes to look a little different.

There are 8% of Pashtuni, can you perhaps explain who exactly of the other 140 million will join them in their tribal craze ? If not, are there any others that take their fundamentalist views and impose them on this young nation ?

Originally posted by Vortexx
I think that Kashmir serves as a justification for the millitary regime to stay in power, somebody has to "defend" pakistan against the bad indians and who would be better at it than the millitary???

I agree, from my limited perspective on the issue I cant conclude anything else than that Kashmir is used by the government to keep certain people calm and have a righteous status.

just like palestine is used by all kinds of parties in the region for other purposes than really giving peace to the people living in palestine or kashmir...

The question is weither those other purposes are equal to eachother, or that there are issues to be added to previously mentioned. In that sense the situations are incomparable

Originally posted by Vortexx


It is gonna be a long hot summer in pakistan.


From a Indian and a Muslim perspevtive, I think, nothing will change in Pakistan. Indian and Pakistani Political parties always play Kashmir card and win elections. However military doesn't need to play this card, they can just take over when ever they want in Pakistan. If you have seen the history of sub-continent you can easily understand it. Anyways, I have strong feelings that nothing will change even if Musharraf get killed. Some other General will replace him and things will continue.

Usa attacking Pakistan? Not possible for next 20-40 years. USA cannot afford it. Only thing USA can do is give Indians massive military support and let them do their dirty work. Indian politicians are dumb enough to fall for that, but they will realize soon or later that USA will stab them in the back once the objectives are complete and many Indian understand it very well. Indian army may sound really great on papers but the reality is no secret. Also it will un-stable the whole Asia and China will not sit aside and the war will stretch and the only losers will be Indians/Pakistanis. Anyways, I will get back to you once I see some objections.

The United States really cannot afford to invade or occupy Pakistan, and Pakistan is a nuclear state as well. While some analysts would agree with you, and while my "tavern analysis" agrees with you, I'm not entirely sure the situation will allow the luxury of such a context.

It may be that Pakistan could become the one we need to afford. For the interesting political context, we might then look to Iraq as the extraneous conflict that we cannot extricate ourselves from.

But the simple basis of my sentiment is actually something that's going to require some kind of support, and as the Pakistani situation develops I hope to provide that support in the near future; I'm not entirely sure what numbers and ideas I'm looking for, however.

What strikes me about the situation, though, comes from some recent media chatter about the Afghani debacle inasmuch as the Taliban is gaining territory and apparently getting support from some madrassas in Pakistan. Not only did the Taliban meet outside Peshawar, but there is some talk that the madrassas are at least partly responsible for the Taliban's increasing numbers.

Enter into this the instability of Pakistani politics--superficial mention suffices here, as I must do some reading for context on this issue.

There is a substantial portion of the Pakistani population--substantial enough that it cannot be ignored--that seeks to undermine what we in the West would consider certain positive aspects of Pakistan and install what we in the West consider certain negative aspects of ideological extremism.

There have been two attempts on Musharraf's life in what was it, eleven days? What happens if the next one gets him? Will it mobilize an uprising? What protects Pakistan's stability in the long run? (I actually don't know the answer to this, so it's not entirely rhetorical.)

My fear is that the situation on the ground in Pakistan could develop in such a manner as to demand international intervention in order to secure the nukes; before that international intervention happens, though, we can expect the United States to be prepared to act proactively in its own defense, or however we choose to term it. If the nukes are in danger, the world will most likely respond reasonably; if the threat is exaggerated by interested parties, there will be hell to pay at the UNSC in the form of inaction; and if there's a hint of that happening--and how can I not at least consider the possibility that the Bush administration won't play straight even at such an hour--the United States may find itself rallying up for a third front in Pakistan in order to keep people our leaders and their analysts find undesirable away from the nukes.

And if that happens, things could get really ugly really quickly.

That's the basic outline of the possibility that I wonder about. Obviously, I need to gather certain information. More information about Pakistan's internal stability (http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,201657,00.html) will fill in the detail, but I don't know if I can actually make the argument unless I can find a way of figuring out just how much of Pakistan "dissents" from what I consider "the American position," or what Americans might consider "the acceptable course." While I've seen estimates running as high as 25% "extremist," I have not yet determined the validity of this number, nor have I come across any comments regarding the cohesion of those extremists--e.g. Will they "work and play nicely enough" together to cause this kind of trouble?

While I don't necessarily disagree insofar as I see it, Undecided, I'm not entirely confident that circumstances will allow the luxury of considering whether or not we can afford yet another front. And there comes a point in pacifism--e.g. when actual, known nuclear weapons are on the line--when direct military intervention becomes a fair consideration. While I still find the idea of warfare distasteful and reflective of a greater human disease, and while I would still hold Bush responsible for his role in agitating the region, I have no problem with the idea of putting Baby Blues and even American soldiers between the perceived enemy and the bloody nukes.

If the situation develops to demand it, well? (Doesn't mean you or I have to be happy about the situation, of course.)

The Bush administration worried about an Al Qaeda or Iraqi nuke. There now seems the very real possibility that, before this junta comes to an end, Bush will finally get his wish of having the real threat of a mushroom cloud to beat the people over the head with.

And at that point, whether it would have happened without the New American Century or not will become moot, which, incidentally is the best thing PNAC could possibly wish for.

At this time, however, the Bush administration and its Frankenstein politics of even recent days are not quite as relevant to my considerations. The good Doctor, as such, will have his hand dealt to him should Pakistan shake itself into chaos.

Originally posted by tiassa



If it will happen ( and it is a big if ) it will turn into WW3 easily. China will help Pakistan, India for sure want to have a piece of the pie and Iran wants Parts of Pakistan as well. So we are looking at China-Pakistan and some Arab Countries on one side and India, Israel and USA on other. Nukes can be use from both sides and it will be consider a real attack on a Islamic nation with Nukes and very likely rest of the arab and other muslims countries intervene because they can say usa is trying to disarm muslims from Nukes etc etc. It is very complicated issue Tiassa and I don't think that it will be as easy as Iraq or vietnam or any other conflict usa had since wwII. I am sure it will be third world war and any sane person would try to avoid it.

567

I must admit that I'm hoping that I am as wrong about this situation as I possibly can be. I'm just too busy spending Amazon and iTunes money right now to do the necessary homework. So I can still hope that I'll find something resembling a fact somewhere that sets my concerns to ease.

Until tomorrow, or so. I can't put off the reading forever, since I'm going from topic to topic and wondering about this wherever I think it's relevant.

Ok to start let's look at the real Pakistan:

Real Pakistan (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/pakistan_ethnic_80.jpg)

I would assert that the most nationalist Pakistani's are nearest to the Indian border, due to more development, and since Karachi and Islamabad are centres of Pakistan's economic and legislative centres, and because of the Indus River. IMO they are the least likely to want to join *for a lack of a better term* "theocracy". But in the green we have the Pashtuns who never wanted to be part of Pakistan, and they believe *rightly* that the British didn't care about the ethnic lines, and that Afghanistan is just an imperialistic machination. I would assert that a "theocracy" would set up in that region first as it has in Peshawar with the Taliban elected into power. The goal of the Pashtuns us create a Pashtunistan, and rid the world of Afghanistan. I am not too well versed on the Baluchi, but I believe that they are also Baluchi nationalists. If Musharaf is indeed overthrown and there is no emergency leader to fill the gap...the Pashtuns would be smart enough to actually seize this opportunity. It all really depends on where the Pashtun see themselves, as Pakistani's or as Pashtun's. Really I question I cannot answer, nor for the sake of regional stability I would have to answer. Remember the Pashtun only make up 13% of the country but that is the second largest group in the country. As for Tiassa and the US... the most I can see the US doing is secure Afghanistan. There is no power that can control the Pakistani situation, any foreigners in Pakistan and in Afghanistan (to the Pashtuns this may be seen as a imperialistic death blow to their nationalist hopes) meaning...you thought Iraq was bad? I just wonder how will India react to that ever happening.

Musharaf is not exactly the Shah

I disagree I see Musharaf epitomizing the west in the Islamic world. Like the Shah he has benefited from Western support, and has maintained Secularism, and dictatorship (western style). Like the Shah he had a loyal army, and a dis-loyal citizenry. He like the Shah was put into power by a coup d'etat. But unlike the Shah Musharaf is an experienced military man, and hopefully for him that should be enough. Eventually democracy should come back and quash any "theocratic" idea.

Originally posted by Undecided
Ok to start let's look at the real Pakistan:

Real Pakistan (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/pakistan_ethnic_80.jpg)
.

Your map is only showing the area coverd by ethnicity. It doesn't show how many people are form where. The most populated one is Punjab and then Sindh. There is very little population in NWP or Sarhad. So, it really doesn't prove anything. So in other words it is an area map not population map.

Thank You

Accutely aware of that, if you read my article I said that the Pashtuns only accounted for 13% of the population. But the land area they cover is large because they have a low population density in comparison to the Punjab because of the more cultivated and urbanized nature.

Surely the power of Allah protects Mushareff for this man has escaped assassination 8 times. Because of this man, terrorist groups are being cleaned out. The living of a regular Pakistani is much wealthier than it was before. The economic status has put Pakistan on the globe now. Pakistan is now on a constuction path and no longer a destruction one.

Those that wish to prevent Pakistan from taking steps forward, let the wrath of Allah be upon them. Cursed be their lives who dwell in jealously upon seeing common people living like them. Cursed be the greedy and the cursed be those who murder and who get others to murder.

Originally posted by certified psycho
The sooner he dies the better......

If you're going to reply, at least do it intelligently. But this time, I will forget your ignorance. However, please explain to me why would it be better?

Originally posted by icest0rm
We might as well. Why not just go all the way? We all know that Osama is hiding somewhere there.

Any occupation will be a failure. As for Osama, perhaps why don't we start here at home and get the "terrorists"?

Originally posted by icest0rm
We might as well. Why not just go all the way? We all know that Osama is hiding somewhere there.

just like we knew saddam had wmds

:m:

Originally posted by icest0rm
We might as well. Why not just go all the way? We all know that Osama is hiding somewhere there.

First, you dont have ballz to do that, you need to grow them first. Second, osama very likely is dead since he was on dialesis for a very long time and without it he may not have survived and don't forget ur daisy cutters ;). If he still is alive and living in pakistan..............*come and get him*:D

Originally posted by Undecided
Accutely aware of that, if you read my article I said that the Pashtuns only accounted for 13% of the population. But the land area they cover is large because they have a low population density in comparison to the Punjab because of the more cultivated and urbanized nature.

I agree that there is relevancy in the land-occupation in addition to the density, it is their area of controll most importantly due to the military abilities of these Pashtuni tribes, however this does not lead to any 'theocratic' possibilities. As far as I know only 8% speaks Pashtu.

I would assert that the most nationalist Pakistani's are nearest to the Indian border, due to more development, and since Karachi and Islamabad are centres of Pakistan's economic and legislative centres, and because of the Indus River.

Punjab and Sindh I suppose ?

IMO they are the least likely to want to join *for a lack of a better term* "theocracy".

You mean they do not like to be governed by Pashtun, as that is what 'theocracy' means in this instance, you are correct I doubt they would like it, who were we speaking of again, the 70% Punjab and Sindh ? As in over a 100 million people ?

You see you have now disproved your own point of any possibilkity for a 'theocracy' . Pashtun won't hijack 100 million people into their 'Pashtunistan', certainly not if these people include the Pakistani nuclear army.

But in the green

No but's, your assertion was :

The real question to be posed is will Pakistan become theocratic by the end of 2004?

Now I am very happy that you realized this was really a silly question with a centric premis that proved to fall apart when put to the test, but let's stay focussed for a second before we dwell on to new ways and possibilities.

We have seen that the theocracy to be established by the Pashtun faces resistance in numbers Pashtun can't handle.

I would assert that a "theocracy" would set up in that region first as it has in Peshawar with the Taliban elected into power. The goal of the Pashtuns us create a Pashtunistan, and rid the world of Afghanistan.

There is no 'first', the rest of Pakistan will never be subjected to some military tribes we have seen there are simply quantitative restrictions. There is also no interest whatsoever for any 'Pashtunistan' to rule Punjab, as you mentioned previously
(the Pashtuns who never wanted to be part of Pakistan). The implications are segregative, the following question would be why the Pashtun and their to-be Pashtunistan would want war with their brotherly nuclear Pakistan ?

As a matter of fact, I would consider it to be the best thing that could happen both to Pakistan's national development as well as our international Islamic struggle. Pakistan would releave itself from a bad roommate only to gain a friendly neighbour, and perhaps even the Kashmir issue might be put into a new light . More stability in Pakistan and more unity and a stronger front on the war against Amerika in Afghanistan.

I am not too well versed on the Baluchi, but I believe that they are also Baluchi nationalists.

Are they not only 3% of the population ?

If Musharaf is indeed overthrown and there is no emergency leader to fill the gap...

Musharaf is a general, certainly after 8 attempts on his live a general here or there thought himself of president. According to the Pakistani analysists it is no problem whatsoever to replace him, and knowing we are spekaing of a military regime here with previous mentioned history and a variety of other issues, I'm willing to believe it couldn't be too hard.

the Pashtuns would be smart enough to actually seize this opportunity. It all really depends on where the Pashtun see themselves, as Pakistani's or as Pashtun's.

I wonder ?

the Pashtuns who never wanted to be part of Pakistan

Now please explain me how, more or less foreign tribes penetrated the military regime ready to coup after Musharaf ? Either that or they declare a war of annihilation against whoever general would become president. Both are ridiculous options, is there any possibility for the Pashtun to rule over this country that is not ridiculous ?

The only option that such ethnic issues can be multi-goverend is when they secularize for instance like the Sunni,Shia and Christians in Baath Iraq. With the Pashtun and the whole 'theocracy' issue we move into the oposite direction, one that is distinctively linked with Pashtuni identity and school of thought and not with many other Pakistani.

I disagree I see Musharaf epitomizing the west in the Islamic world. Like the Shah he has benefited from Western support, and has maintained Secularism, and dictatorship (western style). Like the Shah he had a loyal army, and a dis-loyal citizenry. He like the Shah was put into power by a coup d'etat.

You are wrong on the first, and you bring irrelevant issues to the equasion, you disregard completely the political context in which these (and other that you dont mention) instances accur or played part.

1) If Musharaf 'epitomized' the west in the Islamic world then how come that Pakistan was the only country to acknowledge TALIBAN as the legitimate rulers and representatives of Afghanistan ? The only reason he sold them out was because the USA was not making jokes with this invasion and their '9-11' terror UBL Taliban hysteria.

2) Secularism is irrelevant, the school of thought to which Usama as well as Taliban belong are collaborating with USA, through the 'kingdom' of Saudi Arabia.

3) 'styles' are irellevant, important are how this regime functioned in political context, after all we are not comparing the military fashion of the Shah and Musharaf now are we ?

4) Loyal armies everybody may have or may have not who cares what is this for ridiculous point ? He may also have had a large army or a small one, greta number of inhabitants or a small number, whats the point to that ? BTW its not very western to be loyal :p

5) Most regimes get to power through a coup, again you point out absolutely irrelevant issues. They both have tanks in their army and they both had uniforms as well.

But unlike the Shah Musharaf is an experienced military man, and hopefully for him that should be enough. Eventually democracy should come back and quash any "theocratic" idea.

Quash ideas ? It's not a struggle between 'ideas' but between people, please let go for a moment of the virtual abstractualism that you are trying to draw into the picture, it completely distorts reality as experienced and present by the actual people involved.

Now as for the differences, his experience has not much relevance either, what is most relevant however is that he opposes an imperial stronghold, namely India. Allthough I am sorry for how a people became divided, reality is that India is a 'democracy' in every horrible sense of the word and more.

The Shah did not oppose imperialism, he cooporated with the other imperialist tools (Israel) installed.

Originally posted by Pakman
Because of this man, terrorist groups are being cleaned out.

This whole idea of terrorism is total bullshit, and you should know better being created through seperatism, what 'terrorist groups' is he cleaning out ? Against who do these groups fight and what is their political cause ? TERRORISM like COMMUNISM is nothing but a military excuse to crack down on popular resistance in countries facing imperialist regimes, so that these regimes remain in power function benefiscious for the imperialists. USA fights terrorism, Israel fights terrorism, Russia fights terrorism, Indonesia fights terrorism, even India fights terrorism tell me what wonderfullness can we see in Musharaf's struggle against 'terror' ? If he, like all the rest, fights as he claims this wonderfull struggle against 'global terrorism' by fighting native forces on their own land, and you propose to be happy with this, we can assume that you are in favor of the war on Islam ?

I most certainly do hope this is not the case but If so, please don't think that calling out His name in your post and cursing your enemies will save you from His judgement.

The living of a regular Pakistani is much wealthier than it was before. The economic status has put Pakistan on the globe now. Pakistan is now on a constuction path and no longer a destruction one.

I agree that Musharaf has done good on a national basis, and that the development is positive, but when this is making Pakistan an imperialist tool all 'achievements' become void of any value, because it places the life of a Pakistani on a higher level because of the destruction of his Muslim brothers. If he has no care for his Muslim brothers, then he should reconsider his position as part of the Ummah.

I am affraid that as it is going today, with these last assaults and the attitudes emmerging from it, it is going worse and worse for Pakistan on a base of piousness. Perhaps to give the Pashtun what they in reality want can get Pakistan out of the picture to be used as a tool, as well as influence Kashmir as well as go on and continue the economical development due to the increased stability inside Pakistan. As a Pakistani, how do you see and judge such a development ?

As for Osama, perhaps why don't we start here at home and get the "terrorists"?

Where's 'here at home' ? I do hope it is where I think, you had worried me with your previous outburst.

Second, osama very likely is dead since he was on dialesis for a very long time and without it he may not have survived

Why should he be without it, don't say you think he's going from hole to hole or cave to cave like supposedly Saddam would have in Iraq ?

If he still is alive and living in pakistan..............*come and get him*

Do you see how much better it would be for both the Pashtun as Pakistan if that would be Pashtunistan ? USA can come make war with pashtunistan, they are at war with it already since they are in Afghanistan so Pakistan can pull out it's involvement and watch GI's getting butchered. :D

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
[B]This whole idea of terrorism is total bullshit, and you should know better being created through seperatism, what 'terrorist groups' is he cleaning out ? Against who do these groups fight and what is their political cause ? TERRORISM like COMMUNISM is nothing but a military excuse to crack down on popular resistance in countries facing imperialist regimes, so that these regimes remain in power function benefiscious for the imperialists. USA fights terrorism, Israel fights terrorism, Russia fights terrorism, Indonesia fights terrorism, even India fights terrorism tell me what wonderfullness can we see in Musharaf's struggle against 'terror' ? If he, like all the rest, fights as he claims this wonderfull struggle against 'global terrorism' by fighting native forces on their own land, and you propose to be happy with this, we can assume that you are in favor of the war on Islam ?

I strongly hate this "war on Islam" that is being done by Bush and Israel.

In Pakistan, most of these terrorist groups are backed by Indian officials who prevent Pakistan from being a true rich country. The other terrorist groups fight for power or for controlling a region. They don't fight for a religous cause. The terrorism in Pakistan is not the one Bush is fighting. The "terrorists" in Pakistan are not Muslim, for if they were, they would not go and kill themselves, as in the recent attacks. So in no way could Mushareff's crackdown on terrorism be a war on Islam.

As they are good people, they are bad. Mushareff has banned the terrorist groups, cut off their funds, but not as he went to go and want to kill every one of them like Bush has. Mushareff is only looking to make Pakistan prosper and to help the people, for the country has been robbed many times from Sharif and Bhutto.

I agree that Musharaf has done good on a national basis, and that the development is positive, but when this is making Pakistan an imperialist tool all 'achievements' become void of any value, because it places the life of a Pakistani on a higher level because of the destruction of his Muslim brothers. If he has no care for his Muslim brothers, then he should reconsider his position as part of the Ummah.

Mushareff isn't just looking out for himself. He hopes to help all the Muslim country. Who did the Iraqis go to for help right before the war? Pakistan. Who did the Saudis look to for an ally and aid? Pakistan.

I am affraid that as it is going today, with these last assaults and the attitudes emmerging from it, it is going worse and worse for Pakistan on a base of piousness. Perhaps to give the Pashtun what they in reality want can get Pakistan out of the picture to be used as a tool, as well as influence Kashmir as well as go on and continue the economical development due to the increased stability inside Pakistan. As a Pakistani, how do you see and judge such a development ?

I am pleased with this development. Not since Pakistan was founded has any other President made Pakistan a great country. The founder of Pakistan's founder's motto was Unity, Faith, and Disciple. Mushareff has no personal agendas. He wants the country to prosper, to be rid of the people who hold it back, take out the warlords and the torturous private prision camps, etc.

95% of Pakistanis are Muslim. The ones who did the recent attacks are not. As I have said earlier, these people killed themselves for no good reason. They are either supported by warlords or Indian officials.

Anyway Ghassan, can you tell me how Pakistan can be used as an imperialst tool? That's the only part that got my confused with your post.

Originally posted by Pakman
Anyway Ghassan, can you tell me how Pakistan can be used as an imperialst tool? That's the only part that got my confused with your post.
This naive question really makes you to look like an amateur on pakistan's pathetic history and explains your ignorant statments like :

"In Pakistan, most of these terrorist groups are backed by Indian officials who prevent Pakistan from being a true rich country. "

Yes, because they were in the fold (meaning Empire) long before the Pashtun or Baluchi tribes, were within the imperial grasp of the British, and because (unlike the former) their nationals weren't all included into the "fold" because of Persia and imperial politics btwn Russia and England.

You mean they do not like to be governed by Pashtun, as that is what 'theocracy' means in this instance, you are correct I doubt they would like it, who were we speaking of again, the 70% Punjab and Sindh ? As in over a 100 million people ?

The Pashtun are overwhelmingly Islamic, and believe as in Afghanistan that it is a effective form of government. And in reality it was a relatively good government, if you want stability. Surely "Taliban" style government is not wanted in all of Pakistan, but it is a wave. Pakistan I believe is the experiment, whether "theocracy" can sweep the Islamic world or falter. Iraq as well...

Pashtun won't hijack 100 million people into their 'Pashtunistan', certainly not if these people include the Pakistani nuclear army.

Sure that is a possibility but not a fact, I don't know if the aspirations of the Pashtun include just Pashtunistan or all of Pakistan. I would say that because of the ideals of the Ummah, and a greater Islamic community, they would be in a position to cause havoc in the cities through terrorism, and the tribaly ruled areas in the north is almost impenetrable to the Pakistani army...it would be interesting to see how much they want. There must be supporters of "theocracy" in other ppl's of Pakistan; you never know it could be a populist thing. Musharaf is really lucky that the economy is growing the rate that it is next year a expected 5.1% growth rate.


We have seen that the theocracy to be established by the Pashtun faces resistance in numbers Pashtun can't handle.

But from whom? The army? Let's say there is a democratic revolution in the Pashtun areas, and they want to establish a "theocratic" state, separate that of Pakistan and in a joint union with the Pashtun areas with Afghanistan. These numbers mean nothing really if you talking about militaristic actions. I.E. the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the Pashtun proved to be a touch adversary, and weapons in the region is obviously ample. Now if this is translated into a national Pakistani thing, that's a different story, it's all in the context. Also a note, Musharaf's opposition is a Islamic party, throughout Pakistan. Should be interesting.

There is no 'first', the rest of Pakistan will never be subjected to some military tribes we have seen there are simply quantitative restrictions. There is also no interest whatsoever for any 'Pashtunistan' to rule Punjab, as you mentioned previously

But you see, you are thinking of it as a nationalist struggle btwn the Pashtuns and the rest. I would assert that the Pashtuns (some of them) would want that, but others would probably cease this opportunity to create a mini-Ummah, that is just Islamic and not nationalist in nature. It’s a possibility and neither of us can say either way.

The implications are segregative, the following question would be why the Pashtun and their to-be Pashtunistan would want war with their brotherly nuclear Pakistan ?

Again this is nationalist and it is possible...But what I think is that the Islamic revolution will start in Pashtunistan (in both Afghan, and Pakistan), and spread. Surely it can be seen as a Pashtun invasion of sorts, but the country has an increasing Islamist slant, that no one can deny. That could be seized if this looks more like an Islamic not nationalist struggle. The only way I could see a Pakistan vs. Pashtunistan scenario is if the Pashtuns UDI.

Are they not only 3% of the population ?

And so? They can still rebel, maybe not successfully, but still can burn the nationalist flames.


According to the Pakistani analysists it is no problem whatsoever to replace him, and knowing we are spekaing of a military regime here with previous mentioned history and a variety of other issues, I'm willing to believe it couldn't be too hard.

I'll give you that, but what about the vacuum? There will be a time of general chaos, also many generals may want to ascend into power, thus creating a power struggle. This could be avoided if Musharaf has a successor? Does he?

Now please explain me how, more or less foreign tribes penetrated the military regime ready to coup after Musharaf ?

The Pashtun aren't "foreign tribes" they are surely a part of the Pakistani military; there are around 500,000 military personal in Pakistan. They wouldn't be able to do it themselves, I believe more that this will be a alliance of Islam, rather then one of nationalism. Thus there will be a greater base of support.

Both are ridiculous options, is there any possibility for the Pashtun to rule over this country that is not ridiculous ?

I don't think the Pashtun will "rule the country" per se, I think rather that their religious ideology may. But they may as well want self-rule, is that ridiculous?

the Pashtun and the whole 'theocracy' issue we move into the oposite direction, one that is distinctively linked with Pashtuni identity and school of thought and not with many other Pakistani.

I wouldn't be so quick to judgment, things chance quite quickly. A alliance of convenience may happen, that is a great threat to the Pakistani secular government.


Quash ideas ? It's not a struggle between 'ideas' but between people, please let go for a moment of the virtual abstractualism that you are trying to draw into the picture, it completely distorts reality as experienced and present by the actual people involved.

So this is purely a nationalist struggle?

Originally posted by everneo
This naive question really makes you to look like an amateur on pakistan's pathetic history and explains your ignorant statments like :

"In Pakistan, most of these terrorist groups are backed by Indian officials who prevent Pakistan from being a true rich country. "

Ignorant statements? First of all, let me ask you why would any Pakistani want his country to be in the drain? There is absolutely no reason. India is the only country that wishes to see Pakistan crushed. For years, India tried to destory Pakistan. They waged wars with it, and when that failed, they have used other tactics. Now that Pakistan is out of a hellhole, why is it that all of a sudden these attacks are happening? Do you have a better explanation than that I have given you?

As for ignorant statements, perhaps you should look at yourself.

Originally posted by everneo
pakistan's pathetic history

you to look like an amateur on pakistan's pathetic history

Everneo
And what glorious heritage surrounds your nationality ...

Originally posted by icest0rm

armchair warriors with their loon theories of invading infidel lands probably have the life expectancy of chipmunks in most parts of LA, let alone the avearge middle eastern/south asian cities...

Originally posted by everneo
This naive question really makes you to look like an amateur on pakistan's pathetic history and explains your ignorant statments like :

"In Pakistan, most of these terrorist groups are backed by Indian officials who prevent Pakistan from being a true rich country. "


uh oh.........there goes anti pakistan vomiting by indian fundo...go on. Don't stop now.

Talking about venom and vomit.......lovely everno.

Pakman I am glad that you can see that, this pathetic RAW is only good for one thing, killing innocent. Majority of bombings are by indian terrorist groups mixed in with so called political parties of pakistan and by their terrorists camps in Gujrat and close to Rajistan sector. Where they not only train terrorists for pakistan but to teach them how to kill other minorites and specialy muslims in gujrat.

You know, the indians say it exactly the other way around, I suspect a bit of both must be true.

Observing this whole situation as a non indian / non pakistani from a distance, you must forgive me if I sometimes make somewhat crude assumptions because I am not as close to the fire to feel the heat and see the tiny details, but on the other hand:

I am not as deeply emotionally affected as the people living there, having familly there, wich I believe leaves more room for discussion without defining events from a US vs THEM perspective....

As I understand the indians say they legally inherited Kashmir way back from some maharadja (a kind of local Paul Bremer:p, securing the silk route instead of oil )which may be entirely TRUE!

As usual it was the British who left this big mess, just like iraq and palestine/israel and numerous other places, leaving the seeds for all kinds of future conflicts to come (one thing I think both indians and pakistani can agree upon on ;) )

BUT if you look at the large muslim population, was this maharadja chosen by them or forced upon them ? How LEGAL was this choice of this hindu maharadja to affiliate with India instead of Pakistan ? when he might acted against the will of the large majority of the people of Kashmir???

... one would think in general that being ruled by own kind of people (muslim/hindu/jew/palestine/whatever) wouldn't be a bad idea.

Are their any Pakistani / Indians that have considered splitting up Kashmir two-ways , or is this one of those holy undividable entities ?

Originally posted by Vortexx



This whole Kashmir thing makes me sick. Kashmir should be for kashmiris only. Pakistan and India need to Bugg off. But the problem lies with their political structures. Indian and Pakistan politics are run by Kashmir. Very stupid.

Originally posted by Pakman
Now that Pakistan is out of a hellhole, why is it that all of a sudden these attacks are happening? Do you have a better explanation than that I have given you?
Your naivity really surprises me.. or is it a deliberate posture of innocence..?

insider job & jehadis

A source assigned to a "high strategic position" spoke to Asia Times Online on condition of anonymity, and painted a rather different picture. He confirmed that a number of attempts had already been made on Musharraf's life as a result of his post-September 11 policies in which he abandoned support of the Taliban and threw in Pakistan's lot with the United States in its "war on terrorism" and the hunt for Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda fugitives in Pakistan.

Indeed, said the source, at least five attempts have been made on Musharraf's life since he came to power in a bloodless coup in 1999, of which three came from within the army. All of the attempts were ill-planned and the suspects quickly rounded up. Only one of these case has officially been made public, that involving local jihadis.

As a result of these attempts, and in the wake of a recent call by Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri - the Egyptian ideologue and second in command to Laden in al-Qaeda - for the people of Pakistan to stand up against Musharraf, security agencies have been placed on the highest alert.

- http://www.satribune.com/archives/dec21_jan3_04/P1_atimes.htm

The above is a pakistani source.

Latest Attack

President Musharraf appeared on state television hours after Thursday's attack.

He blamed Islamic militants for the attack and said he was now even more determined to "cleanse the country of extremists".

"We are fighting a war against terrorism," Mr Musharraf told state television.

Looking calm and composed, he blamed "extremists and terrorists who want damage the country, [and] defame the religion".

- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3351207.stm

Don't make me to laugh again by saying indians were involved in these attacks.

Originally posted by skywalker
Pakman I am glad that you can see that, this pathetic RAW is only good for one thing, killing innocent. Majority of bombings are by indian terrorist groups mixed in with so called political parties of pakistan and by their terrorists camps in Gujrat and close to Rajistan sector. Where they not only train terrorists for pakistan but to teach them how to kill other minorites and specialy muslims in gujrat.
How can you find out when a paki is saying lies..?

When his lips move (or when he types..? ) :p

Originally posted by everneo
How can you find out when a paki is saying lies..?

When his lips move (or when he types..? ) :p


thank you for proving our point. This hate will take you no where.... btw what are you doing here? how come you are not joining your brothers in Gujrat and Ayodeha ??

Here comes the ISI........Boo.:D

Remember the UBI / Cantrade scandal back 98-99???

it seems the CANTRADE bank still exists! The CIA must still be doing bussiness with drugslords to try keep muslimcountries secular...??? And not entirely unsuccesfully must I say.

Originally posted by everneo
[/url]

Don't make me to laugh again by saying indians were involved in these attacks.


It always have been.............:( pretty sad. I wonder why India can't live in peace with her neighbours.......Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Burma and Bangaldesh. Why everno? why you and your fundo bunndies do not understand how to live in peace?

Originally posted by skywalker
This hate will take you no where....
Your love for india makes me to reciprocate with same kind, despite the fact that india is the victim of pak sponsored terrorism. your tactics of blaming the victim is becoming too telling.

I wonder why India can't live in peace with her neighbours.......Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Burma and Bangaldesh.
Why Nepal, Srilanka.? They are friendly and don't export jehadis into India. Bangladesh is fast becoming east pakistan again. Thank your mullah - ISI ties.

Pakistan is not allowing afghanis to live in peace either. Irritating its neighbouring Iran by oppressing minority shia muslims. But alas China is a big brother even if it takes Aksai chin area of the Kashmir from Pak controlled Kashmir. Oh, no Pak would donate that area of Kashmir to China and shed tears for Kashmiris. Why don't you follow the Bhutan example.? why don't you flush out all the criminals and terrorists that bleed india in kashmir and rest of the country.? Why don't you live peacefully in your own country.?

Originally posted by everneo
Your love for india makes me to reciprocate with same kind, despite the fact that india is the victim of pak sponsored terrorism. your tactics of blaming the victim is becoming too telling.


Why Nepal, Srilanka.? They are friendly and don't export jehadis into India. Bangladesh is fast becoming east pakistan again. Thank your mullah - ISI ties.

Pakistan is not allowing afghanis to live in peace either. Irritating its neighbouring Iran by oppressing minority shia muslims. But alas China is a big brother even if it takes Aksai chin area of the Kashmir from Pak controlled Kashmir. Oh, no Pak would donate that area of Kashmir to China and shed tears for Kashmiris. Why don't you follow the Bhutan example.? why don't you flush out all the criminals and terrorists that bleed india in kashmir and rest of the country.? Why don't you live peacefully in your own country.?


U sound like a veggie pie speaking to India Times Reporter every day. I mean whine and bitch about invisible spooky, ghostly ISI. Your country is no ones friend you are dreaming again about akand india and it will not happen mark my word kido. Your fanatics will kill each other low cast vs high cast. Stop spreading terrorism to nepal and burma bangladesh to sri lanka. Learn to live in peace. :m:

Originally posted by everneo
He confirmed that [b]a number of attempts had already been made on Musharraf's life as a result of his post-September 11 policies in which he abandoned support of the Taliban and threw in Pakistan's lot with the United States in its "war on terrorism" and the hunt for Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda fugitives in Pakistan.

Ok. I can agree with you there. There is also some hatred among the Pakistanis because Mushareff helped America.

local jihadis.

Local jihadis does not equate the people being Pakistanis. It could be anyone living in that area.

He blamed Islamic militants for the attack and said he was now even more determined to "cleanse the country of extremists".

Once again, what I said above. Just because it's Pakistan doesn't just mean only Pakistani extremists live there. There would also be others who can hide under the diguise of being a Pakistani, but being something else. This criteria can apply to any nation in the world.

Originally posted by everneo

- http://www.satribune.com/archives/dec21_jan3_04/P1_atimes.htm

The above is a pakistani source.
. [/B]

Would be kind enough to tell me why do you think that above link is Pakistani? I am just wondering since I am unable to get to the main page and wasn't able to find anything else related to what you have mentioned.

Thank you

Originally posted by skywalker
U sound like a veggie pie speaking to India Times Reporter every day. I mean whine and bitch about invisible spooky, ghostly ISI. Your country is no ones friend you are dreaming again about akand india and it will not happen mark my word kido. Your fanatics will kill each other low cast vs high cast. Stop spreading terrorism to nepal and burma bangladesh to sri lanka. Learn to live in peace. :m:
You asked for it. Hearing truth sounds to you like whining and bitching. Don't try to hide the loonies in your arse and blame india for the pain.

567 :

http://www.satribune.com/aboutus.htm

Please read the story of its chief editor & founder.

Originally posted by skywalker
U sound like a veggie pie...

I mean whine and bitch about....



Go back and read your posts and find that you fit the description perfectly.

Stop spreading terrorism to nepal and burma bangladesh to sri lanka. Learn to live in peace.
What are you blabbering.? Can you substantiate without telling your own stories.? Spreading terrorism in India, Bangladesh, Nepal & Srilanka is well known, proven Paki bussiness.

Originally posted by everneo
Go back and read your posts and find that you fit the description perfectly.


What are you blabbering.? Can you substantiate without telling your own stories.? Spreading terrorism in India, Bangladesh, Nepal & Srilanka is well known, proven Paki bussiness.


http://search.csmonitor.com/search_content/1229/p08s03-comv.html

Guys
Here is a recent link that quotes a Western Media, which describes Pakistan exporting trouble everywhere.

Taliban = Pakistan Sponsored Terror Group during Elected Benazir Government Tenure

Kargil Invasion = During Elected Nawaz Sharif Govt tenure

Kashmir = Insurgency started During Zia's rule

To all Pakis who have never had the chance to vote for majority of their lives should understand that the democracies in world have Govt. which are answerable to the general population.

Pakman I see you are very understanding and do accept the facts when presented....but your buddy Skywalker starts all the postings with a personal assault which makes the discussion very personal and non informative.

India’s Army and RAW are answerable to the elected members from all religion and states. Just like we have here in US. Just as Tenet would have to answer for any mis-information on Iraq, Indian Defense Minister will have to answer any mis-adventure in any other country.

Pakistan could have been a great country but it chose the path of violence by being active in 80s Proxy war against Russians. The fall out is the million plus fanatics based in the NWFP and western borders who never left and were instrumental in creating Taliban.

And please no mud slinging just fact or information, which would make this thread interesting. We all are well-read and intelligent people who choose one side(or other) of the discussion so let us be cordial and enlighten each other.
Do I hear Yay!!:)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Guru

And please no mud slinging just fact or information, which would make this thread interesting. We all are well-read and intelligent people who choose one side(or other) of the discussion so let us be cordial and enlighten each other.
Do I hear Yay!!:) [QUOTE]

Thank you but what about you?:D :p




It was a joke ( I hope you got it ).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by skywalker
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Guru
[B]http://search.csmonitor.com/search_content/1229/p08s03-comv.html
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Guru


haha. More vomiting, another hidnu fundie trying to save his brother. lol. Yack Yack.........do it again kid. It will help you release your hate. We are better with the military goverment then the so called Indian Demon Crazy.


Look what terrorist India is doing through out the world,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3146357.stm

SAM huh??


Uh oh.............Stealing nuke planes??? Guess who??? another terrorist Indian?

http://headlines.sify.com/2681news5...ant~ blueprint

[b]Indian held in US for sending nuke plant blueprint

New York: An engineer of Indian origin has been arrested for allegedly sending blueprints of specialised valves, a critical part for nuclear plants, to a company's office knowing that they would be sent to North Korea.

In a complaint filed in Federal District Court in Manhattan, US District Attorney said that Sitaram Rai Mahadevan, 40 shipped the blue prints to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries in New York, one of the contractors involved in the construction of the Korean Peninsula Energy Development Organisations nuclear plant in Yongbyon in North Korea.

Mahadevan, who is a Canadian citizen with permanent residency status in the United States, was arrested on Friday.

He was subsequently released on a bail of 750,000 dollars and could get up to ten years in prison and a fine of 250,000 dollars if convicted.

Prosecution said that his application for license for export of similar valves along with documetation to India was rejected last year. The deal would have been worth 3.2 million dollars if approved.




This is what is going on in demon crazy..........

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ow?artid=153509


More killing of innocent in india.........please instead of getting Pakistan Fobic, stop the violance in your own backyard.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/...sia/3241516.stm



Indian Baboon repoter got shut up by US officials.......lol That is what happen when you lie to much and your Pakistan Fobia.

"Boucher, who seldom loses his cool, came close to doing so when he replied sharply, "First of all, I think the Indian Government has made formal public statements that express the Indian view, and you don't necessarily need to rely on what people might be saying in coffee shops."

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/defaul...7-9-2003_pg7_14


Two of the worlds great Terrorist organization working hand to hand.... http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/sep/08spec.htm

Pathetic baboonic RAW. lol



Yah right Demon Crazy India at its best.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/...00900010009.htm

Greast Phucking demon crazy. Look at your pathetic country.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/...00900010008.htm


Looks like you are going to be needing all the help in the world even from Pakistan to save your People.


http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/a...s.ap/index.html

600,000 affected by aids in one year. Instead of buying More missile from russia............how about some help for those people?

More terrorist attacks on minorities in India?? When would you stop this??

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/...sia/3226364.stm

Hindu fundies...........you'll love it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/...sia/3245988.stm

Indians uspet with this one............lol

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_485486,0000.htm

Hey for Indians every one is terrorist. The whole world is going to destroy them and they have to stock pile all of the worlds wepons to save their akand india.

More on indian genocides.



15/07/02 UK: LEADING ARTICLE - INDIA'S SHARE OF THE BLAME FOR THE KILLING IN KASHMIR.


WHOEVER WAS responsible for the terrible carnage near Jammu over the weekend, in which people disguised as Hindu holy men threw grenades and opened fire on civilians, killing at least 27 of them, the big picture is clear. Muslim extremists, whether or not they are directly linked to al-Qa'ida, want to provoke a religious war in Kashmir, a state with a Muslim majority that ended up in India rather than Pakistan when the British withdrew 55 years ago.
The Kashmir issue is a powerful recruiter to the ranks of an intemperate Islamic nationalism in Pakistan, and many sects are based in the country that pose a threat not just to regional stability but, like al-Qa'ida, to much of the rest of the world.
It is against this background that the conduct of the leaders of India and Pakistan must be judged - and it is against this background that Atal Behari Vajpayee, the Indian Prime Minister, must be condemned, while Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's military ruler, must be cautiously praised. Mr Vajpayee has shamelessly used the Kashmir issue - and George Bush's rhetorical war on terrorism - to stoke Hindu nationalism, the electoral motor of his failing party. Refusing to acknowledge the roots of the Kashmir problem - the fact that its people have never been allowed the right of self-determination - he seeks every excuse to accuse the Pakistanis of aggression. This posture of fake righteousness was exposed early last month when the Pakistanis shot down an Indian spy plane in Punjab.
General Musharraf, on the other hand, has persuaded most objective observers that he is sincere in his efforts to stop terrorists using Pakistan as a base. He has allowed the United States and its allies to operate on the border with Afghanistan, and he has taken some action against Kashmiri militants. It is not in Pakistan's interest to undermine its legitimate claim to Kashmir by supporting terrorism.
Paradoxically, the real ally of the terrorists is India's Prime Minister, who must share some of their responsibility for provoking nationalist and sectarian hatreds. Within hours of Saturday's atrocity, his Foreign Minister was accusing Pakistan of "inspiring" it. A more honest appraisal would lay some of the blame closer to home.
(c) Independent Newspapers (UK) Limited 2002. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, distributed or exploited in any way.


more????







more on demon crazy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/...sia/3348661.stm

"The head of India's election commission has described the country's politicians as poorly educated, impolite cheats.
Chief Election Commissioner James Lyngdoh, who leaves office in two months, told the BBC that not one of them was committed to democracy.
"
Great Example of Gov officials.......................sickening.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_408277,0008.htm

More sick soldiers......

http://www.ndtv.com/template/templa...=45503&callid=1



*yawn* getting tired now...heh. I will spit more later.


By the way that news link is Asia times run by some So called Pakistani, NOT THE PAKISTANI source of news mr.bal Tahkray. I can start a news paper by putting a story on a front page and call it a news paper. lol

Keep trying.

:D :p


Oh and don't kill your Sikh brothers either please.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2088/r_index.htm

True face of non-Proliferator India

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_429647,0008.htm

Top Indian Nuclear expert took Iran assignment
Jay Raina
New Delhi, October 23

A sensitive government investigation has revealed that Dr YSR Prasad, a former chairman and managing director of the Nuclear Corporation of India, took up an assignment in Iran after he retired in July 2000. He is believed to have helped Iran build technical and physical infrastructure for its nuclear power plants.

The revelations come at a time when Iran’s nuclear programme is under the scrutiny of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), and the Indian government is contemplating banning its nuclear scientists from taking up jobs abroad.

A classified government document on the investigation points out that Prasad, a highly rated scientist who spent years working on India’s atomic energy programmes, did not seek the government’s permission to go to Iran. Although Prasad wasn’t breaking any rules, the government may henceforth make it mandatory for nuclear scientists to first seek approval for such assignments — and clear only exceptional cases.

Top government sources said that though New Delhi and Teheran do have a strategic partnership, they do not collaborate where nuclear programmes are concerned.

Although nuclear scientists from the two countries have exchanged several visits in the past (the Iranians have visited facilities in Tarapur and Kakrapara, for instance), the visits have all been under the aegis of the IAEA.

The Indian government also permitted two Iranian students to carry out post-doctoral research at the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research in Mumbai.




and


Indian Sold Nuclear Plant Blue Prints to North Korea

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://inhome.rediff.com/news/2003/nov/01nuke.htm

Man of Indian origin arrested for selling nuke plant plans

Dharam Shourie in New York | November 01, 2003 13:56 IST


An engineer of Indian origin has been arrested for sending blueprints of specialised valves, a critical part for nuclear plants, to a company's office knowing that they would be sent to North Korea.

In a complaint filed in Federal District Court in Manhattan, a US district attorney said Sitaram Rai Mahadevan, 40, shipped the blueprints to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries in New York, one of the contractors involved in the construction of the Korean Peninsula Energy Development Organization's nuclear plant in Yongbyon in North Korea.

Mahadevan, who is a Canadian citizen with permanent residency status in the United States, was arrested on Friday.

He was subsequently released on a bail of $ 750,000 and could get up to ten years in prison and a fine of $ 250,000 if convicted.

Prosecution said that his application for license for export of similar valves along with documentation to India was rejected last year. The deal would have been worth $ 3.2 million if approved.

The criminal complaint said the blueprints could be used to produce valves that are critical in the operation of a nuclear plant.

Mahadevan had shipped the blueprints to Mitsubishi on October 17. But agents of the United States Commerce Department seized them before they could be sent out of the country.

The United States laws prohibit sending materials that could be used in nuclear plants to countries which have not ratified the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty.

Such shipments to North Korea have been blocked since December 2002, when the North Koreans expelled inspectors of the International Atomic Energy Agency from its nuclear plants.



Ya blame it all on ISI. Go ahead..........lol

Facts only correct?

I appreciate you engaging in civil discussion ... thank you for all the links and comments. Now this is the type of healthy discussion I was talking about ...

I will respond in couple of days I am off on vacation for this week ...

Happy New Year to Y'all

May New year bring Peace and Kick Bush out of Office
:D

Originally posted by Guru
I appreciate you engaging in civil discussion ... thank you for all the links and comments. Now this is the type of healthy discussion I was talking about ...

I will respond in couple of days I am off on vacation for this week ...

Happy New Year to Y'all

May New year bring Peace and Kick Bush out of Office
:D



Thank you Guru, I was expecting your kind words. I hope the new year brings more happines, joy and peace in the world.

Originally posted by skywalker
Look what terrorist India is doing through out the world,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3146357.stm

SAM huh??


Uh oh.............Stealing nuke planes??? Guess who??? another terrorist Indian?

http://headlines.sify.com/2681news5...ant~ blueprint

Indian held in US for sending nuke plant blueprint

New York: An engineer of Indian origin has been arrested for allegedly sending blueprints of specialised valves, a critical part for nuclear plants, to a company's office knowing that they would be sent to North Korea.

In a complaint filed in Federal District Court in Manhattan, US District Attorney said that Sitaram Rai Mahadevan, 40 shipped the blue prints to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries in New York, one of the contractors involved in the construction of the Korean Peninsula Energy Development Organisations nuclear plant in Yongbyon in North Korea.

Mahadevan, who is a Canadian citizen with permanent residency status in the United States, was arrested on Friday.

He was subsequently released on a bail of 750,000 dollars and could get up to ten years in prison and a fine of 250,000 dollars if convicted.

Prosecution said that his application for license for export of similar valves along with documetation to India was rejected last year. The deal would have been worth 3.2 million dollars if approved.


You are so desparate that you got 2 persons of indian orgins and link their business activities way back to india.

Do you have any idea about what is nuclear plane(!), nuclear plant and nuclear device technology.?

That canadian citizen of inidan orgin, Sitaram Rai Mahadevan, was not arrested for bartering nuclear weapons technology for missiles. He was arrested for sending the blueprints of critical valves for nuclear plant (not bomb) to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries in New York, one of the contractors involved in the construction of the Korean Peninsula Energy Development Organisations nuclear plant in Yongbyon in North Korea.

What india has to do with these stories.? Have some luck and more sense next time.



This is what is going on in demon crazy..........

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ow?artid=153509


More killing of innocent in india.........please instead of getting Pakistan Fobic, stop the violance in your own backyard.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/...sia/3241516.stm



Indian Baboon repoter got shut up by US officials.......lol That is what happen when you lie to much and your Pakistan Fobia.

"Boucher, who seldom loses his cool, came close to doing so when he replied sharply, "First of all, I think the Indian Government has made formal public statements that express the Indian view, and you don't necessarily need to rely on what people might be saying in coffee shops."

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/defaul...7-9-2003_pg7_14


Yah right Demon Crazy India at its best.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/...00900010009.htm

Greast Phucking demon crazy. Look at your pathetic country.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/...00900010008.htm


Looks like you are going to be needing all the help in the world even from Pakistan to save your People.


http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/a...s.ap/index.html

600,000 affected by aids in one year. Instead of buying More missile from russia............how about some help for those people?

More terrorist attacks on minorities in India?? When would you stop this??

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/...sia/3226364.stm

Hindu fundies...........you'll love it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/...sia/3245988.stm

Indians uspet with this one............lol

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_485486,0000.htm



When you have come back to normalcy try to read what you have posted or plagiarized from other hate sites that listed out the above links.

Hey for Indians every one is terrorist. The whole world is going to destroy them and they have to stock pile all of the worlds wepons to save their akand india.

More on indian genocides.



15/07/02 UK: LEADING ARTICLE - INDIA'S SHARE OF THE BLAME FOR THE KILLING IN KASHMIR.


WHOEVER WAS responsible for the terrible carnage near Jammu over the weekend, in which people disguised as Hindu holy men threw grenades and opened fire on civilians, killing at least 27 of them, the big picture is clear. Muslim extremists, whether or not they are directly linked to al-Qa'ida, want to provoke a religious war in Kashmir, a state with a Muslim majority that ended up in India rather than Pakistan when the British withdrew 55 years ago.
The Kashmir issue is a powerful recruiter to the ranks of an intemperate Islamic nationalism in Pakistan, and many sects are based in the country that pose a threat not just to regional stability but, like al-Qa'ida, to much of the rest of the world.
It is against this background that the conduct of the leaders of India and Pakistan must be judged - and it is against this background that Atal Behari Vajpayee, the Indian Prime Minister, must be condemned, while Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's military ruler, must be cautiously praised. Mr Vajpayee has shamelessly used the Kashmir issue - and George Bush's rhetorical war on terrorism - to stoke Hindu nationalism, the electoral motor of his failing party. Refusing to acknowledge the roots of the Kashmir problem - the fact that its people have never been allowed the right of self-determination - he seeks every excuse to accuse the Pakistanis of aggression. This posture of fake righteousness was exposed early last month when the Pakistanis shot down an Indian spy plane in Punjab.
General Musharraf, on the other hand, has persuaded most objective observers that he is sincere in his efforts to stop terrorists using Pakistan as a base. He has allowed the United States and its allies to operate on the border with Afghanistan, and he has taken some action against Kashmiri militants. It is not in Pakistan's interest to undermine its legitimate claim to Kashmir by supporting terrorism.
Paradoxically, the real ally of the terrorists is India's Prime Minister, who must share some of their responsibility for provoking nationalist and sectarian hatreds. Within hours of Saturday's atrocity, his Foreign Minister was accusing Pakistan of "inspiring" it. A more honest appraisal would lay some of the blame closer to home.
(c) Independent Newspapers (UK) Limited 2002. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, distributed or exploited in any way.


more????

The above article is written by whom.? you or some hate-india-paki..?
Can you provide the link.? atleast the link to the hate site from where you cut and paste this crap.

Anyway, the article is dated 15/07/02. That was the time when the world (especially West) saw pak as a front line state in fighting terrorism (!). Now the world view changed and they see pak terror is much more fanatical than Al-Qai'da.

*yawn* getting tired now...heh. I will spit more later.
Yeah, that happens when you indiscriminately shit arround here. Imagine the plight of those who read your crap.


By the way that news link is Asia times run by some So called Pakistani, NOT THE PAKISTANI source of news mr.bal Tahkray. I can start a news paper by putting a story on a front page and call it a news paper. lol

You can start your own news paper and load the irrelevant crap as you wish. But you don't have the gutz and sensibility of the Pakistani who run that site.

Originally posted by skywalker
[B]True face of non-Proliferator India

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_429647,0008.htm

Top Indian Nuclear expert took Iran assignment
Jay Raina
New Delhi, October 23

A sensitive government investigation has revealed that Dr YSR Prasad, a former chairman and managing director of the Nuclear Corporation of India, took up an assignment in Iran after he retired in July 2000. He is believed to have helped Iran build technical and physical infrastructure for its nuclear power plants.

The revelations come at a time when Iran’s nuclear programme is under the scrutiny of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), and the Indian government is contemplating banning its nuclear scientists from taking up jobs abroad.

A classified government document on the investigation points out that Prasad, a highly rated scientist who spent years working on India’s atomic energy programmes, did not seek the government’s permission to go to Iran. Although Prasad wasn’t breaking any rules, the government may henceforth make it mandatory for nuclear scientists to first seek approval for such assignments — and clear only exceptional cases.

Top government sources said that though New Delhi and Teheran do have a strategic partnership, they do not collaborate where nuclear programmes are concerned.

Although nuclear scientists from the two countries have exchanged several visits in the past (the Iranians have visited facilities in Tarapur and Kakrapara, for instance), the visits have all been under the aegis of the IAEA.

The Indian government also permitted two Iranian students to carry out post-doctoral research at the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research in Mumbai.



You should understand the difference between a nuclear plant for energy and nuclear weapons technology. What pak bartered with NK is the second one and what Iran sought from india is different ; help to build nuclear plant for energy ( not unranium enrichment devices / nuclear weapons technology ) covered by IAEA.

Facts only correct?
What you have done in your last few posts is not just vomitting anti-india hatred, but shitting, indiscriminately.

Originally posted by skywalker
Thank you Guru, I was expecting your kind words. I hope the new year brings more happines, joy and peace in the world.
He is kind enough to call your crap as civil discussion.! :D

Let me also be kind and say 'Happy new year'.

haha HindustanTimes is a hate site. ROFL...........lol BBC is hate site and all the sites are hate sites but that one site you gave me was a perfect site..........lol. As long is some one is anti pakistan he is speaking truth. LOL

There is a clear link between indians and proliferators. From SAM to Nuclear Plans.....all the way to Iran. Offourse you will believe what *other* sites will tell you. Grow up my fundie friend.......... u cant do anything to Pakistan. So let us live in peace and help your country men and save them from starving to death.

Originally posted by everneo
You should understand the difference between a nuclear plant for energy and nuclear weapons technology. What pak bartered with NK is the second one and what Iran sought from india is different ; help to build nuclear plant for energy ( not unranium enrichment devices / nuclear weapons technology ) covered by IAEA.
.
Ya the differnce is if he was Pakistani you would be Jumping up and down and screaming and making a big story out of him, and relating the whole pakistan with this one man..........wouldn't you everno? lol admit it now kid.:p

Originally posted by skywalker
haha HindustanTimes is a hate site. ROFL...........lol BBC is hate site and all the sites are hate sites but that one site you gave me was a perfect site..........lol. As long is some one is anti pakistan he is speaking truth. LOL

You have not come back to normalcy yet. Read again what i posted :

"When you have come back to normalcy try to read what you have posted or plagiarized from other hate sites that listed out the above links."

I am not telling Hinustan Times and BBC are hate sites.! You probably got those links from a hate site(s), simply cut & posted the list here.


u cant do anything to Pakistan. So let us live in peace and help your country men and save them from starving to death.
I will be happy if Pakistan gets out of the current terror hell and progress like India, without begging for Funds from US and the West.

Nobody needs to help us, both Pak and India, if peace between them established and defence spending reduced. Peace is possible only if Pak sheds its fanaticism. Hope that Musharraf and Jamali could reign in the anti-india pak jehadis. Surprisingly MMA too seemingly started distancing itself from these elements. Let us wait and see the outcome of SAARC summit.

Originally posted by everneo
[
Nobody needs to help us, both Pak and India, if peace between them established and defence spending reduced. Peace is possible only if Pak sheds its fanaticism. Hope that Musharraf and Jamali could reign in the anti-india pak jehadis. Surprisingly MMA too seemingly started distancing itself from these elements. Let us wait and see the outcome of SAARC summit. [/B]


hahahah



http://www.india-watch.com/gg.htm


Look from above site what you have done to your own economy.

When muslims ruled India it had 33% of worlds trade.
When brits ruled India it had 27% of worlds trade
When hindus took over they claim it was down to 3% but now it is 0.6%.




hey its not hate site but it will open ur eyes.

Keep trying. You are the nation of 1billion people and half of ur population doesn't have a roof to sleep under. But you love buying more and more weapons?? who are u going to invade? are you going to fighr china?? they will kick ur butts, if u fight with Pakistan..........well it won't happen, or if it will it will be nuclear war. So what is the deal huh? why letting people die starving but pileing up weapons? I mean you cant even handle them...........you are wasting them like 87000 bofors shells were destroyed recently. I wish ur country could have spend that money to poor people in Delhi or madras etc etc. :(

Originally posted by everneo
You have not come back to normalcy yet. Read again what i posted :


Facts dont change no matter what you try to say.

Originally posted by skywalker
http://www.india-watch.com/gg.htm


Look from above site what you have done to your own economy.

When muslims ruled India it had 33% of worlds trade.
When brits ruled India it had 27% of worlds trade
When hindus took over they claim it was down to 3% but now it is 0.6%.

Now you are talking of economy.?!! Comparing a country's economy over the centuries.? that too on a religious basis.! boy you are a real nut.

There was industrial revolution (ever heard of ?!) in Europe when muslims were on the decline in India. The major trade blocks China (33%) and India (33%) started loosing to Europe and US. When India became independant it was at 3%. The decline during the 'hindus' (as you would like to hear) rule in independant India is just 2.4% in 50 years as against 24% decline during British rule for for around 200 years (ask your grand dad why.?)

What is the status of Pakistan during 50 years of its existence.?

Pakistan is surviving because of the Western Aid (US and WB).


You are talking as if Pakistan is a richie. You fare not far better than India either.

"Poverty in Pakistan is an increasing social problem and represents the critical challenge to be addressed by the Government of Pakistan. It is estimated that about 32% of Pakistan's population are below the food poverty line rising from a level of 26% in 1988 (GoP, 2002), and about 44% are below the poverty line on the human poverty index (UNDP, 2002). The implication here is that a significant proportion of Pakistan's population does not have adequate levels of food, access to basic services and opportunities and hence are particularly vulnerable to economic, environmental and political shocks. Add to this the fact that 65% of Pakistan's population lives in rural areas and it is here that the bulk of Pakistan’s poor (about two-thirds) are found. "

- http://www.iucn.org/places/pakistan/poverty/poverty.htm

Try to believe in something called peaceful existence and cut defence budget and spend for development.

Can Pak say no to US once and risk stopping the funds / aids.? You pakis will eat each other with no aid. :p

Originally posted by everneo


Can Pak say no to US once and risk stopping the funds / aids.? You pakis will eat each other with no aid. :p


Never argue that. It is a fact. BTW I didn't creat the india watch site. It was all indians. Try asking them what they think and why.

:D :p

Oh no........was that a hate site too? lol