We are lead to believe by many cultural forces that there is such a thing as a "Western-Supporting Moslem".

Why then does it seem that this creature is as elusive as the Haggis, which Scots are wont to make gullible tourists believe in?

Or perhaps the Jabberwock? Will we have to take our vorpal sword with us when we venture to find him?

Every day, whilst being told that Islam is a "religion of peace", we see its violence in demonstrations, in terrorist actions, and in the vicious hatred they hold for the West...

Every day, whilst being told that they love the West, we see crowds of them call us the Great Satan, see religious leaders - some in our own countries, specifically in the UK! - speak about how great it was that 9-11 occurred and how infidelic and wretched we are...

Every day, whilst being told that Islam poses no threat, we find another Islamic plotter ready to deal death and mayhem to our people after posing as a friend and neighbour...

We have one prominent Moslem here on this board. Her name, as most of you are probably well aware, is Samcdkey. She is an intelligent, educated, well-spoken, Moslem Indian lady.

And she hates the West. A lot. Her disdain for America and her president being particularly pronounced under auspices of not being part of the "herd" and well, you know, being Islamic and therefore hating the West.

Consider her viewpoints on "Israeli cyber soldiers". If there was ever an over-exaggerated threat concocted by anti-Israeli and likely terrorist groups, it is this. Yes, Israel has major corruptions, but come on, Samcdkey. Do you really make us view Islam in the right light when you swallow Islamic propaganda whole?

In fact, Samcdkey, I challenge you to present to us all your views of 9-11. Who was behind it? Who killed 3,000 Americans? What religion(s) did they adhere to? What nationalities were they? Were they being hidden in any countries? Did any religion form the foundation for their actions? Did they praise anyone in particular?

What is your stance on the Iranian president?

What do you think about Israel?

What about the Muhammad cartoons?

What about the US policy in Iraq?

Are we all dirty Zionist Great Satans?

How would you compliment the West?

But I am going on a tangent here...

What makes Islam hate the West? Are they, as the thread questioned, religiously/racially committed to its hatred? Perhaps Arabs and Turkics - with a smattering of South East Asians and Negros, of course - have a racial hatred of the predominately Indo-European/Aryan West?

Or is it just a religious thing, like you know, the haoris and sex-toy boys promised to the martyrs? And therefore a religious issue?

Perhaps both?

Or perhaps it is irrelevant. Islam hates the West. This much is evident.

Should not we hate Islam in return?

The overwhelming majority of the practitioners of that religion at least strongly dislike the west and a good chunk of those do indeed go as far as hating it. Not hating the west gets you scorned, and in some places shot, by your peers. There are of course those who do not fall into these catagories, but they are generally educated men and women and, quite often, citizens of western nations themselves. I don't hate them as much as just look at them with a raised eyebrow.

As for forum members in particular, we tend to have a lot of nutjobs here on Sciforums. I wouldn't hesitate to say we all would be considered raving lunatics if we stepped outside of our own particular social circles. I think of myself as being sane and reasonable but I know damn well that half of the forums would argue with me on that.

The reason why a person is the way they are generally has a lot to do with their parents and their friends. Religion, political beliefs, just about everything. Its true for all of us.

Your post seems to be rather emotionally charged. Calm yourself and rid yourself of emotion.

Or perhaps it is irrelevant. Islam hates the West. This much is evident.

Should not we hate Islam in return?


And what, exactly, would that do to make the situation better?

:m: Peace.

Every day, whilst being told that Islam is a "religion of peace", we see its violence in demonstrations, in terrorist actions, and in the vicious hatred they hold for the West...

Hmm I wonder if the media pandering to the fear mongering against Muslims might have something to do with it?

Every day, whilst being told that they love the West, we see crowds of them call us the Great Satan, see religious leaders - some in our own countries, specifically in the UK! - speak about how great it was that 9-11 occurred and how infidelic and wretched we are...
Every day? Really? Hmmm reading through the news today and I haven't seen what you are saying is being reported on every day. Nor did I see it yesterday.

Lets see now, you take the words of a few individuals and apply it to the whole? That's interesting.

Every day, whilst being told that Islam poses no threat, we find another Islamic plotter ready to deal death and mayhem to our people after posing as a friend and neighbour...
Again with the 'every day'. Do you have proof of say for the last year that every single day a new 'Islamic plotter' was discovered? Hell, I'll even make it easier for you. How about in the last month, do you have links to reputable news articles reporting a different 'Islamic plotter' being discovered every single day? Or does the 'every day' stem from irrational fear and an over abundance of emotional reaction on your part?

We have one prominent Moslem here on this board. Her name, as most of you are probably well aware, is Samcdkey. She is an intelligent, educated, well-spoken, Moslem Indian lady.
That she is.

And she hates the West. A lot. Her disdain for America and her president being particularly pronounced under auspices of not being part of the "herd" and well, you know, being Islamic and therefore hating the West.
So do a lot of people. What's your point? Ooohh I see.. she's *whispers* Islamic:rolleyes:. Again, what's your point?

Consider her viewpoints on "Israeli cyber soldiers". If there was ever an over-exaggerated threat concocted by anti-Israeli and likely terrorist groups, it is this. Yes, Israel has major corruptions, but come on, Samcdkey. Do you really make us view Islam in the right light when you swallow Islamic propaganda whole?
You mean like you are swallowing the anti Islamic propaganda? Interesting that.

In fact, Samcdkey, I challenge you to present to us all your views of 9-11. Who was behind it? Who killed 3,000 Americans? What religion(s) did they adhere to? What nationalities were they? Were they being hidden in any countries? Did any religion form the foundation for their actions? Did they praise anyone in particular?

What is your stance on the Iranian president?

What do you think about Israel?

What about the Muhammad cartoons?

What about the US policy in Iraq?

Are we all dirty Zionist Great Satans?

How would you compliment the West?

But I am going on a tangent here...

Why? You want to pick and pore over every word she writes and try to find something that will fit into your stereotype of what you already believe? Kind of a pathetic attempt don't you think? You just want her to pander to your irrational fears and contempt of *whispers* 'them Islamic people'. Why should she be forced to defend herself because a few people who happen to be Islamic, or Muslim to be more precise, happened to commit the crimes that they have?

What makes Islam hate the West? Are they, as the thread questioned, religiously/racially committed to its hatred? Perhaps Arabs and Turkics - with a smattering of South East Asians and Negros, of course - have a racial hatred of the predominately Indo-European/Aryan West?
So now you want her to answer why everyone hates the West? LOL!

Or is it just a religious thing, like you know, the haoris and sex-toy boys promised to the martyrs? And therefore a religious issue?
Gee I don't know. Maybe they hate us because, you know, we (the West) hate them? I mean look at your post as a prime example.

Or perhaps it is irrelevant. Islam hates the West. This much is evident.

Should not we hate Islam in return?
You mean you don't already? You mean the West doesn't already?

And what, exactly, would that do to make the situation better?

:m: Peace.


That is potentially the most interesting question posed in years. It would probably take a series of steps in social engineering to sway the entire culture of the Islamic world.

One thing that might have sufficient effect would be for islamists to witness an act by their own side so horrible that they can not bear or rationalize or deny it. This is difficult because it is human nature to either attribute the offensive act to another party or deny its existence alltogether. And, of course, some will rationalize it as being either necessary or desireable. Still, seeing the right act at the right time might be enough to make moderates completely reject their more militant brothers. The entire range of reactions stated here occured in the days following 9-11.

This, of course, rests firmly on the enemy making a misstep and not any action of ours. We might, however, be able to take advantage of whatever event occurs.

It should also be noted that both wealth and education have a tendancy to dull the militant natures of both individuals and cultures. Education, at least for some, tends to dispel superstitious and biased beliefs while ignorance makes them pliable to whoever is the local religious or cultural leader. Wealth gives an individual something to tie them to this life, keeping them from going out and getting themselves killed in holy war.

There are probably a number of things that would have positive effects. I am far too tired to think of them right now.

Good Morning Prince james

i hope you are well.

can anyone asnwer this or is it Sam specific??

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take care
zak

We have one prominent Moslem here on this board. Her name, as most of you are probably well aware, is Samcdkey. She is an intelligent, educated, well-spoken, Moslem Indian lady.

Er, thanks?


And she hates the West. A lot. Her disdain for America and her president being particularly pronounced under auspices of not being part of the "herd" and well, you know, being Islamic and therefore hating the West.

BS. I detest American foreign policy. A country with so many resources can do a lot better than constantly looking for bogeymen to fight with.


Consider her viewpoints on "Israeli cyber soldiers". If there was ever an over-exaggerated threat concocted by anti-Israeli and likely terrorist groups, it is this. Yes, Israel has major corruptions, but come on, Samcdkey. Do you really make us view Islam in the right light when you swallow Islamic propaganda whole?


I thought it was pretty funny actually. I still do.

So anything about Islam is propaganda? Hmm interesting. Tell me, what is NOT Islamic propaganda?

In fact, Samcdkey, I challenge you to present to us all your views of 9-11. Who was behind it? Who killed 3,000 Americans? What religion(s) did they adhere to? What nationalities were they? Were they being hidden in any countries? Did any religion form the foundation for their actions? Did they praise anyone in particular?


I do believe Al-Qaeda has taken credit for it.

As for why, according to South Park, "it was a bunch of pissed off Muslims".

What is your stance on the Iranian president?


Seems like any other politician in power.


What do you think about Israel?

Israel was a mistake by the British.

Now however it is a done deal and we should be looking for solutions instead of compounding the problems.

What about the Muhammad cartoons?


Some of them were pretty funny.

What about the US policy in Iraq?


Weapons of Mass Delusion.

Are we all dirty Zionist Great Satans?

???who is we

I think you seem like a person ruled by fear though, one who cannot seem to comprehend that the main purpose of dialogue is communication.

Why are you afraid?

How would you compliment the West?


The West is a big place.

Americans are actually pretty different from the rest of the West.
It is only after coming on this forum that I realised how much.

I admit, I rather prefer the socialist approaches of Europe, since they closely resemble our community oriented approach to society in India.

Americans are nice people, I have several good friends here who are American.

One thing which I cannot understand, however, is why some of them are so afraid of everything.

For example

Mountainhare:

Actually, we have something we can do to North Korea. It's called "nuke them till their glow".

One h-bomb on Pyongyang would kill the two million citizens, destroy the government, and remove from North Korean hands the only place where there is even some electricity in the entire country. With the chain-of-command so destroyed, the troops near the DMZ would be easy pickings for massive cluster bombings, napalm runs, artillery strikes, naval bombardment, MOAB strikes, and if necessary, gas bombs.

North Korea doesn't have a prayer against the "sleeping giant".

Michael:

"1) This would kill a bunch of innocent women and children living in Pyongyang. You can bet that many more would be moved there within that 24 hours. Possibly trebling the number of civilian deaths."

An admittedly sad consequence, but also inevitable if North Korea doesn't capitulate. For whereas I can sympathize with the North Korean people, I must also recognize that their existence is a support for said government, that the people "get the government they deserve" through not revolting, and that if they were smart, they'd leave the capital now, even at the threat of their lives.

If possible, I would hope to not have to kill them. That is why we must ask Kim Jung'il for a complete surrender of his and his government's powers and acceptance of occupation.

If they die, we will mourn them as innocents, but we will have saved many more in the process. Occasionally must one do such things.

"2) I doubt that the South Korean relatives of those killed would be in favor of such action."

Sadly, we must tell them that it is "tough luck", although I'd suggest not in such inflammatory tones. We can do nothing about it. Our hand has been forced.




Mostly they just seem apathetic and insular, especially away from the coast.


But I am going on a tangent here...

What makes Islam hate the West? Are they, as the thread questioned, religiously/racially committed to its hatred? Perhaps Arabs and Turkics - with a smattering of South East Asians and Negros, of course - have a racial hatred of the predominately Indo-European/Aryan West?

You are completely deluded here.

Muslims do not hate the West and quite a few of them actually live there.
And a lot more are moving to the US and Europe every day.


Or is it just a religious thing, like you know, the haoris and sex-toy boys promised to the martyrs? And therefore a religious issue?


This is also deluded rubbish mostly found in Western media and indicates your poor comprehension of the socio-political aspects of current events.

I think few Westerners comprehend the concept of religion as it is found in the East.


Or perhaps it is irrelevant. Islam hates the West. This much is evident.

Is this your rationalisation for your own obvious hate and fear?

Should not we hate Islam in return?


You mean you don't ?

What do you think of the US support for Saudi Arabia? And Pakistan?

Lastly, why did you single me out?

That is potentially the most interesting question posed in years. It would probably take a series of steps in social engineering to sway the entire culture of the Islamic world.

First error.

There is no Islamic world. No one organisation that can speak for all Muslims.

We are pretty independent of each other politically and whatever religious brotherhood we share only comes into play when all are lumped together.

One thing that might have sufficient effect would be for islamists to witness an act by their own side so horrible that they can not bear or rationalize or deny it. This is difficult because it is human nature to either attribute the offensive act to another party or deny its existence alltogether. And, of course, some will rationalize it as being either necessary or desireable. Still, seeing the right act at the right time might be enough to make moderates completely reject their more militant brothers. The entire range of reactions stated here occured in the days following 9-11.


Moderates do reject the militants. Constantly. Muslim moderates are as much a target of militants as other people, moreso, they suffer for being lumped together with them. Again, the paucity of real knowledge as compared to media propaganda is pathetic.

Of course, they are not sufficiently interesting to make it to press.


This, of course, rests firmly on the enemy making a misstep and not any action of ours. We might, however, be able to take advantage of whatever event occurs.

Who is the "enemy"?

What do you think of Iraq? Who was the "enemy" there?

It should also be noted that both wealth and education have a tendancy to dull the militant natures of both individuals and cultures. Education, at least for some, tends to dispel superstitious and biased beliefs while ignorance makes them pliable to whoever is the local religious or cultural leader. Wealth gives an individual something to tie them to this life, keeping them from going out and getting themselves killed in holy war.


So how does this explain US foreign policy and interventions?

Who is the "enemy"?

What do you think of Iraq? Who was the "enemy" there?


So how does this explain US foreign policy and interventions?

Saddam was the enemy there...!!!
We went in to liberate the people of Iraq from an oppressed ruler!

Are they sufficiently liberated now, do you think?

Why not Darfur? Or North Korea?

edit: oppressed ruler???

So far they have "liberated" around 655,000 Iraqis, still a few million to go....

Are they sufficiently liberated now, do you think?

Why not Darfur? Or North Korea?

you can't expect one country to clean up everyone's mess, other countries got to pitch in and help too. As for darfur, I don't see any brotherly muslims doing anything to help them. I hope it's not just beacuse of their ethnicity or colour!

So far they have "liberated" around 655,000 Iraqis, still a few million to go....

They kill each other, it's not our problem!

you can't expect one country to clean up everyone's mess, other countries got to pitch in and help too. As for darfur, I don't see any brotherly muslims doing anything to help them. I hope it's not just beacuse of their ethnicity or colour!

I asked why not?

I mean if people are to be liberated do not Darfur and North Korea seem to be in worse positions?

like I said it's not fair to have one country clean other people's mess!

They kill each other, it's not our problem!
Er...that contradicts your earlier statement:
We went in to liberate the people of Iraq from an oppressed ruler!
If Saddam was killing them, why do you care?

Er...that contradicts your earlier statement:

Well the oppressed ruler is liberated from his people at least!:D

Besides, the war on Iraq is a moving continuum, its astonishing how many reasons one can discover for it if one looks hard enough!

well at least they killing each other instead of coalition troops!:cool:

Ah! so the American idea of liberation is liberation from ALL suffering.

Sorry to be so slow on the uptake!:cool:

I'm not sure what the american idea of liberation is coz I'm not american!
But I know that it definitely involves kicking some ass!!!:D

Oops! Sorry about that.

It was the multiple exclamation points that fooled me.

PS. Somehow I always imagine you as a very excitable person, but one who speaks from the heart. Is that true?

Well I'm not sure if it's from the heart or the gut but I do say what I have to say.. I don't beat around the bush!

But you do go around in circles some!

No I don't that's a shark tactic, I circle my prey looking for weak spots then violently attack it,..just like in my posts!:D

I see, so you "liberate" your prey.

yeah put it out of its misery!:D

I think we can move on from the witty bantering...

samcdkey

Ah! so the American idea of liberation is liberation from ALL suffering.

And what is the Islamic solution?

PJ


Re 9/11, I personally think America did it to themselves.
As a prelude to war against Islamic nations.


hi TOR

thank you for your post

i agree with the comparison with Monkey

However what do you mean by the above.

do you believe in a conspiracy or do you think like i do that the cover ups are not to dow ith a conspiracy but merely to covere up the incompetence of the bush administration etc...

And i wouild like to back you on the truce with sam... Sam has been very patient with a lot of posters and alwasy tries to debate with intelect and good evidence.. however whatever she says is all in vien, i have not seen any body from the other side of the argument say "i see your point,, thank you for this enklightenment" etc.. its all "yes but if thats true than why this"

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take care zak

there must be a conspiracy, note how your copy of my post has been edited out of my post! Was it me who edited it out ORRRRRRR was it ..................

I do not read the news, watch the news etc etc, so I am not influenced by any propoganda of any description. That includes conspiracy theories, I never read a single one. I just go with my gut. I saw the live footage as it occurred in a bar on hoilday, I went back to my apartment to view it.....live. My immediate thoughts were..."The world will blame America for this....they did it to themselves'.

The reason I felt like this was I simply could not understand how not one but two planes made their way through city (whatever you call it) air space
without being detected and shot down. That is what I was thinking about as I watched it live. What I saw made no sense.

What does make sense is that a large powerful nation cannot go to war against a weaker nation, lest it be seen as an act of agression, much better for it to be an act of 'retaliation' a response to provocation. What America has done and is doing since that seems to point in the direction of stirring up worldwide hate and fear of Islamic nations, in order to wage war against them. When the war with iraq started, I immediately said, it will Iran next. A few yrs on and look where we are with Iran.

I have no idea to what degree Islamic nations may have been considering a war agaisnt the west..I am not that informed.

hI tor

that is odd indeed about the your post

with regards to 9-11 what i find the strangest is how can you fly a plane into the pentagon... which is the heart of the american military and probably the best defended palce on the planet!!! amazing stuff.

however if a duck looks lik a duck, sounds like a duck then it probably is a duck!!!

It must be gross miscompetence if you ask me...

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take care
zak