More "fact fixing" to suit Bush asministration policys.

Not a huge surprise coming from an administration with Bush's environmental track record. When a former government of New Jersey quits her head position at the EPA because she feels she isn't being allowed to do her job, you know you've got some problems.

Global warming is only real if Bush says it's real. And he won't say it's real - that's just not good business, doesn't help the bottom line! Who cares if we kill ourselves tomorrow if we can make a profit today.

 

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Oh Mystech, when will you believe? All the oil industries best scientists say that at best we don't know what is causing the global warming. Who cares what a lot of free wheeling altruistic scientists who's only loyalty is to the science of the issue say?

The government scientists were right when they told us nuclear fallout wasn't dangerous in the middle of the cold war. The tobacco industries were right when they said smoking doesn’t cause cancer. Why do you think that conflicts of interest can actually cause people to say things that are false?

(Note for the dumb, the preceding post was thick with sarcasm. If you didn't understand it, ask for an adult’s assistance.)

 

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Well, we've been discussing the issue of global warming and pollution, etc. since the mid-to-lat 50s (maybe even earlier!) and very damned little has been done about it. Your post makes it seem like President Bush is the first American president to ever have any problems with it.

So, in answer to your question, ......apparently no one gives a shit who has any authority to do anything about it.

And that brings up an interesting point ....what are you going to do about it? I mean, since you're so fired up about this issue, shouldn't you be planning a future so as to do something to help?

Baron Max

 

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Does it? Try reading it again. Bush's administration has been doctoring scientific reports to make it seem as though there is no problem to begin with, that's what I've got a problem with. Just one more lie to throw on the heap!

 

Actually Clinton did try to do something about global warming. Big oil and the republicans wouldn't join in.

http://wired-vig.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,7906,00.html

You might want to take a look at:

http://www.stopglobalwarming.org/

There are a lot of big names behind this one, both Democrat and Republican.

 

Don't you think it is funney that Clinton didn't introduce this scheme until October of '97 after having been in office for some 4 years and 9 months? Where was the urgency in that?

Also, don't you think it is funney that all of the technologies and changes would occure after 2004, long after he was out of office?

 

Bullett

What new technologies are you refering to?

What part of "doctoring reports" don't you understand??

http://www.ombwatch.org/article/articleview/1607/1/178/

 

He doesn’t understand the part where you think he isn't allowed to blame all the failings and malfeasance of the republican party and current administration on Bill Clinton. Clearly he is the one who turned them all into Snidely Whiplash type villains. ... Clearly.

It’s a distraction tactic that they like to use. They just interject Bill Clinton into the conversation and suddenly they can talk about a different president. Who cares if Bush is actively trying to poison our drinking water, Bill Clinton waited until he was in his second term to handle the political hot potato that is environmental reform! That cad! Surely his past transgressions are worth repeating now. They are much more important than that mercury we have all been drinking.

 

I think it's deplorable that the Bush administration refuses to even address the issue of Global Warming. To quote Bush from a recent speech "We don't know enough yet". If anyone watches the Daily Show with John Stewart, he shows Bush saying that this year, AND in 2000. The entire world has accepted that Global Warming is real and a problem. Bush won't even confront the issue at all, because confronting it would be admitting that we need changes in energy source; which would mean less oil dependency; which would mean less profits for the major coorporations that ARE the Bush administration.

 

Great site, I've joined.

 

Almost everyone involved, whether agreeing or disagreeing in the issue itself, agree that there's damned little that we can do to stop what's already underway in global warming. It would be like stopping a speeding train using a few little cottonballs!

I would also point out that many knowledgeable scientists still don't know the REASONS for the warming trends. Some blame it on humans, but many think that there are normal weather trends in motion. So ...who do we believe? Oh, wait, I know .....we believe whoever says what we WANT to hear, right?

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Baron Max

 

Baron Max

I agree to some extent, but that doesn't explain why the Bush administration felt it necessary to tamper with the data.

 

So we do nothing? I'm not saying that we can undo the damage that has already been done, I'm saying that we should be taking steps to prevent future damage to our planet. The Bush administration is refusing to do that, and tampering with any sort of data to suit yourself is unacceptable.

I understand what you are saying. I know that it seems like everyone is just listening to what their side has to say and turning a blind eye to everyone else. However, whether or not we know WHAT is causing Global Warming, we know that it's a bad thing (Bush has stated that he is not even sure if Global Warming is real). Most scientists (and pretty much all scientists outside the US) have already told us what we as a race can do to stop destroying our planet, not only on the issue of Global Warming, but our environment as a whole. And yet it seems, and this is true especially in the US, that we couldn't care less. Global Warming is an issue that needs to be confronted, and immediatly, and the Bush administrations flat out refusal to face the problem is unacceptable.

 

I think you meant to say FEW knowledgeable scientists don't know the reason for the warming trend. It is now the consensus that human activity is the reason. No one can now deny the impact humanity has had on the surface of the planet, or the vast economic interests represented by the opposing view.

 

That statement, sir, is absolutely wrong!! You should be ashamed of making such a statement when even the most ignorant of us knows it's false.

Baron Max

 

Oh, sure it does. They didn't want it to be just another "Oooh, bad thing happening!" issue ....without substantiating evidence. And there is none! ...or certainly none that everyone agrees with. I.e., without the changes, it might have been nothing more than negative propoganda and, thus, worthless.

Baron Max

 

Sure ...but at what cost? And remember, you're not the only one on the planet and many people aren't willing to give up electricity, cars, trains, buses, planes, manufactured goods, etc., etc.

What price are YOU willing to pay? Giving up your computer? Giving up your heated and air conditioned home?

It's not the Bush Administration that's unwilling or refusing to do anything, it's most of the people of the entire fuckin' world! Please don't blame it on President Bush or the USA just because you don't like us. No other fuckin' nation is giving up their goodies either!

And it's too stiff a price to pay! The people simply won't pay that price.

We are confronting it ....but you expect miracles and overnight successes and that's not how it's going to be done ...CAN'T be done that way. There are too many people involved ...and the issue is NOT as important as having that pizza delivered quickly and hot. THAT is important ...the environment and global warming is simply NOT that important yet.

People, scientists, have been warning us about these environmental issues since the early 60's or earlier .......and few paid any attention to it. But now YOU think it's important ....and want instant actions and success.

Baron Max

 

Of course, whatever changes we implement should take into account the economic impact, but do we do the same when we spend billions on war? We cannot simply give up every advance we have made so far, but there's alot of other things we could regulate that would not cost too much, especially if it's spread out over time. This need to address human climate change neatly meshes with another need- to adapt to the end of cheap oil.

 

Well, the billions that we spent on the war is actually going back into the economy, so it's not "wasted" in the sense that you might mean.

"Fixing" the environmental problems is going to take much more than just money, that's for sure. It's going to take tremendous sacrifices ....and I don't just mean sacrificing a few virgins every now and then!! It's going to mean giving up many of our most cherished convienences. How many people will opt to do that? And if they don't? What do we do ...put them in prisons?

Listen, since the beginning of human existence, we've almost always been "forced" to do things, to change things. I don't see this issue as any different. Donald Trump simply is not going to give up his highrise mansions just so you can have a clean park and clean air to breathe! Trump and peolple like him can bring in their own clean air if they choose ...while throwing their garbage out onto the streets below.

Tell me, how do you stop that? Without total tyranny?

And don't forget that some people are even thinking: "Well, when the USA gets too bad, we'll just move to Canada/Mexico/South America/etc. See? The issue is simply not important enough right now.

Baron Max

 

There could be scrubbers on coal power plants, remember Bush's "clean coal"? The companies that make the scubbers would benefit and create jobs. This is an example of something doable. Gradually increase MPG requirements for new cars, subsidize solar technology and wind power, etc... It could become a new industry.