View Full Version : Morals in the Absence of a God


BSFilter
06-04-06, 03:22 PM
Heres a Paper I wrote last semester for a philosophy course. I have not cited any references but if you really want to know I can find the source. Its sorta a combination of many of the threads that have appeared here on the sciforums.


Morals in the Absence of a God

Christianity is considered a “revealed” religion; that is God took it upon himself to reveal His existence and teachings to man. Other revealed religions include Judaism and Islam. In all these religions God left behind some sort of scripture that was to be worshipped and followed. In all of these scriptures you will find rules laid down by God concerning basic ethic principles, such as Judaism’s sixth commandment, “Though shall not murder” or oppositely one of the 613 Quran commandments, “"Fight those who do not believe in Allah…” Are we to believe that humans would not have developed morality structures without the aid of a God; having no way of being able to decide what is right and wrong? Morality is a product of any social animal’s environment. I believe basic moral principles would have developed in humans without any religion at all, as it did in all other socialized animals.
In nature, there are two basic rules; find a way to live, or die. Life for any solitary creature is a harsh one indeed. Throughout the development of life, creatures figured out the influence of “power in numbers.” Fish figured out that swimming in a school greatly increased individual protection while ants have thrived not on size but purely on numbers alone. Alternatively, some of the oldest and most antisocial creatures on Earth such as the crocodile and the shark abandon their young from day one, and some crocodiles will eat their own offspring if they wander too near. There is a mutual benefit gained for all animals in a group, it would not make sense for one fish to kill another for food, for it would only be increasing the chance that itself would be eaten by an attacking predator. Here is a very simple example of a creature realizing that killing another in his group is not a beneficial thing to do, without a revelation from God.
In none of the scriptures left behind by any religion does God make mention of giving these same ethical rules to animals, although some do address animal’s creation (even if swiftly). Nowhere are there stories of this divine knowledge of right and wrong being passed to animals as well, for humans are favored solely for eternal life (whether in paradise or hell) above all other creatures. Was then this knowledge of morality instilled directly into animals by His will, while humans needed guidelines and rules to set a path? It is not all animals that show indications of moral values; it is particularly animals that have developed complex social groups they depend on to survive. The very intelligent and social elephant depends on the eldest female in the group to lead them, which is strikingly similar to “Thou shall honor your father and your mother…” Some animals observe the same basic ethical principles as humans, without any mention of a revelation to animals in any of the scriptures.
Some may not consider one member of a group not killing another as a true sign of moral values. Let’s take it one step further and discuss altruism. In evolutionary biology, an organism is said to behave altruistically when its behavior benefits other organisms, at a cost to itself. Biological altruism is different than altruism applied to humans alone. Biological altruism is apparent through out the animal kingdom, but it is most noticeable in animals with complex social structures. For example vampire bats regularly regurgitate blood for members of the cave which did not feed that night ensuring they do not starve. A parallel to this would be any human who donates food to needy individuals, such as the homeless who have trouble getting food on their own.
Altruism can also be seen in creatures which we consider to not have any conscience thoughts at all, mainly colonizing insects. In such cases, sterile workers devote their entire life to caring and protecting the nest, larvae, and most importantly the queen. Such actions are supremely altruistic, for these workers leave NO offspring of their own but do great amounts for the propagation of the colony as a whole. A creature devoid of conscience thought is devoting itself entirely to a specific purpose, with no thoughts inclined to self benefit. Perhaps it is this lack of thought that allows this to happen. Humans could never achieve altruistic behavior on this level for our own self-interests would conflict with that of the group. Using insects as an example, one may deduce that the perception of self (which only a few other creatures share along side humans) hinders altruistic behavior.
For any reasonably intelligent social group of animals, you will also have the members which benefit from the altruism of other members, while contributing nothing of their own. Vervet monkeys have alarm calls to warn every member of the group of approaching predators. Monkeys who give the alarm put themselves at more risk by exposing their position, but increase the safety of the group. Conversely, monkeys who do not give an alarm call increase their own chances of survival while decreasing the safety of the group. This could be interpreted as the most primitive form of lying because it is the absence of communication which gives the false that impression that everything is safe.
Deception is crucial to human’s creation of good and evil. It was the snake who deceived Eve into eating the forbidden fruit, who then gave some to Adam. Evil does not exist in nature without humans directly applying it. One animal killing another for food is not evil, it is necessary for survival. Two lions battling over a territory and its females where one male lies dead in the end (murder), is not evil, it is necessary for propagation of his genes. Necessity dictates what action to take; our actions only reflect what we need. Once we have what we need our actions reflect what we want. So for different cultures with different needs to develop different ethical values is normal.
Man’s exponential dominance of the planet Earth can be attributed only to our intelligence. We are not the strongest, fastest, or most agile animal ever to exist. We are the most adaptable, which derives from our intelligence. Never has a single species before us been able to survive in harshest environments on Earth including the artic, tropics, wetlands, deserts, or even at sea without a major change in physiology (over along period of time). Our ingenuity is credited for these feats.
Ancient scriptures deal not with science, math, agriculture, or astronomy as we know it today. Most scriptures serve as guidelines for teaching humans how to live with each other (whether peaceful or violent), presented through stories which are easy to identify with. Humans tentatively built scientific foundations from the ground up. These lessons were not revealed to us as simply as the 10 commandments were. Yet many of the necessary backbones of civilization as we know it today are based on engineering capable through math and science, which were not apart of any revelation given to man by God. It is not such a stretch then to consider that humans would have developed moral values without the aid of a revelation or prophet.
What these scriptures do provide is a universal rulebook that spans generations and cultures, which almost anyone can relate to. In our history, these teachings were used to bridge the gaps between different cultures under a common set of “rules to live by”. With many of the commandments of the Christian/Jewish religion hitting so close to many of the altruistic behaviors described in this paper, it is easy to see why these religions are so widely accepted. Statements such as “Thou shall not murder” and "Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (or you shall not lie) are observations taken from nature with human conscience/emotion applied to them. Jesus’, Moses’ and even Mohammed’s actions in life were truly altruistic in essence, which may be why they are considered the backbones of their respective religions.
What humans consider moral behavior existed in animals well before any religion wrote them down in scriptures. It is helpful to keep in mind that the species of homosapien has only been present about 100,000 years in the 4 million plus years that the Earth has existed. Religion is thought to have originated about 3,700 years ago. It is absurd to think that without a message from God that human’s would not have developed ethical values that we base our many distinctive societies on. So then the question remains, what exactly was the purpose of God revealing His will to man through written rules He already infixed in all other creatures? Whatever the message, it is apparent through the many different sects and values of monotheist religions that His directive was not very clear. Yet despite our differences across cultures and religions, we all share a sense of basic ethical principles common to all man-kind (even if we forget/ignore them sometimes).

Jaster Mereel
06-04-06, 05:58 PM
What humans consider moral behavior existed in animals well before any religion wrote them down in scriptures. It is helpful to keep in mind that the species of homosapien has only been present about 100,000 years in the 4 million plus years that the Earth has existed. Religion is thought to have originated about 3,700 years ago. It is absurd to think that without a message from God that human’s would not have developed ethical values that we base our many distinctive societies on. So then the question remains, what exactly was the purpose of God revealing His will to man through written rules He already infixed in all other creatures? Whatever the message, it is apparent through the many different sects and values of monotheist religions that His directive was not very clear. Yet despite our differences across cultures and religions, we all share a sense of basic ethical principles common to all man-kind (even if we forget/ignore them sometimes).
A couple of errors to point out. You wrote that the Earth has been around for 4 million years. I'm assuming that was a typo, so I'm just going to go ahead and say 4 billion. Also, about religion being believed to have originated 3,700 years ago, it's not true at all. Archaeologists dealing with early hominids find evidence of ritual behavior in species that pre-date Homo Sapien, so it's as old as man himself.

None of this changes the substance of your argument, however. I wholeheartedly agree that ethical behavior is necessary for the survival of any social animal (as a species). Excellent post.

draqon
06-04-06, 06:58 PM
Jaster 4 billion...4 billion years and earth and even solar system didnt even exist...

Jaster Mereel
06-04-06, 07:08 PM
Jaster 4 billion...4 billion years and earth and even solar system didnt even exist...

...?

James R
06-04-06, 09:54 PM
There are also a number of logical difficulties in asserting that all morality comes from God, which you haven't mentioned.

We can get at those by asking: Are some actions wrong just because God says so, or does God tell us they are wrong because God knows right from wrong?

In other words, could God just as easily have said "Thou shalt commit murder as often as thou can"? Would murder then be a good thing? If murder is wrong regardless of what God says, then obviously the moral idea that murder is wrong is quite independent of what God might say.

makeshift
06-04-06, 10:30 PM
dragon -- it's 4.6 billion years old. Look it up.

draqon
06-04-06, 10:34 PM
I know what they say, but I do not agree. Its one of the things I do not agree with even though the scientists have supposevly radioactive isotope decay prove for this...
I just know Earth isnt this old. It is def. above 125 million years old but less then 4.5 billion years old.

crazeeeeeem
06-04-06, 10:45 PM
Greetings

How do you define God? The reason why I ask is that you mention an absence of a God, yet that is not reality.

draqon
06-04-06, 10:48 PM
Greetings

How do you define God? The reason why I ask is that you mention an absence of a God, yet that is not reality.

Oh really...not reality? Well were's your prove of God? Where is he? ... nowhere to be seen...

BSFilter
06-04-06, 11:16 PM
There are also a number of logical difficulties in asserting that all morality comes from God, which you haven't mentioned.

We can get at those by asking: Are some actions wrong just because God says so, or does God tell us they are wrong because God knows right from wrong?

In other words, could God just as easily have said "Thou shalt commit murder as often as thou can"? Would murder then be a good thing? If murder is wrong regardless of what God says, then obviously the moral idea that murder is wrong is quite independent of what God might say.

This paper asserts we obtained morals without God. And using the example of "thou shalt commit murder as often as thou can" is taking it too far, its not a realistic example because any socialized animal would immediately recognize this as not beneficial AT ALL to anyone in their group. You also have to differientate between murder (human act) and killing (animal act).

draqon
06-05-06, 01:35 AM
This paper asserts we obtained morals without God. And using the example of "thou shalt commit murder as often as thou can" is taking it too far, its not a realistic example because any socialized animal would immediately recognize this as not beneficial AT ALL to anyone in their group. You also have to differientate between murder (human act) and killing (animal act).

beautifully said.

Raphael
06-05-06, 07:43 AM
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the entire premise of this paper assume that an animal in a social group has a sense of the individual?


I would argue that a social group replaces the concept of self with the concept of the group. So that the group becomes the self. In order to attribute morality to this concept of group/self, the group would be required to be altruistic toward other groups.

BSFilter
06-05-06, 02:52 PM
Not necessarily Raphael. The social group only becomes the self in supremely altruistic societies, ie insects. Social animals with higher brain functions do have a sense of the individual, as well as a sense of the group. Each creature must decide on its own to what degree in both of these areas it devote itself. (which is why you get the monkeys that do give alarms, and those that do not.)

Raphael
06-05-06, 08:46 PM
Not necessarily Raphael. The social group only becomes the self in supremely altruistic societies, ie insects. Social animals with higher brain functions do have a sense of the individual, as well as a sense of the group.

My disagreement is likely due to a difference in definition for "sense of self". So, instead of debating definitions, I'll simply concede the point.


To continue though...
After much searching, I found a non-clinical description of a behavior in baboons, a social animal with higher brain functions, on this webpage (http://www.eyesonafrica.net/updates/2004/upd_oct04.htm). I thought I would share it with you so that you might point out the moral behavior involved.

A troop of Chacma baboons were in our camp at around midday, doing their usual thing. In typical fashion a mother was foraging peacefully with her tiny baby in playful close attendance. Suddenly a large male baboon came charging in, grabbed the youngster and ran off some distance. The mother started barking the alarm call which immediately caused the rest of the troop to scatter into the nearby trees. Heads were bobbing up all over the place as they all nervously started searching for the predator, probably suspecting a leopard, whilst the mother kept on sounding the alarm in frantic fashion. What the troop did not realize was that in this instance the predator was one of their own, who sat under a tree nearby and proceeded to eat the baby baboon! One of our experienced guides who witnessed this drama, had never yet seen this behavior in nearly 20 years of active guiding in the bush.

If you had never heard of such a thing, I encourage you to post your initial opinions on the incident before doing further research.

Oxygen
06-06-06, 02:38 PM
Regarding altruistic behavior, here's something I came across while studying heraldry. A Mr. Phillips of Cavendish Square, London (early 19th century) was swimming in the sea off Portsmouth when a current got hold of him and he started to drown. A passing Newfoundland hound went into the water after him and pulled him out. The dog had been a stray, and as such I would venture didn't regard Mr. Phillips as part of his pack (as pets tend to do).

What was Mr. Phillips to the dog? Nothing. What did the dog have to gain? Nothing. What did the dog have to lose? Everything.

I don't know much about the breed, but you don't see dogs just going for a dip at the local swimming hole, so I assume that dogs are predisposed to avoid deep water. This dog put that predisposition aside for whatever reason.

So do we guess that the dog made a conscious decision to perform an act of altruism? Or do we really stretch it and say the dog figured that if he helped Mr. Phillips he might get some material gain out of it (food, a home, etc)? Surely no animal has a base instinct to get itself killed in an act that will in no way prolong the life of the pack or species.

Oh, Mr. Phillips took the dog home and "gave him every kind attention that he deserved." The dog has been commemorated on his crest. (Oddly, the article didn't mention the dog's name.)

Non-Logical-Idea-Guy
06-06-06, 03:56 PM
A couple of errors to point out. You wrote that the Earth has been around for 4 million years. I'm assuming that was a typo, so I'm just going to go ahead and say 4 billion. Also, about religion being believed to have originated 3,700 years ago, it's not true at all. Archaeologists dealing with early hominids find evidence of ritual behavior in species that pre-date Homo Sapien, so it's as old as man himself.

None of this changes the substance of your argument, however. I wholeheartedly agree that ethical behavior is necessary for the survival of any social animal (as a species). Excellent post.


yeah oldest "known religion on earth" is zoroastriaism originated in Persia around 5000BC, my grandfather was one of the few remaining believers, its a blood religion :D

Raphael
06-06-06, 05:48 PM
Regarding altruistic behavior, here's something I came across while studying heraldry. A Mr. Phillips of Cavendish Square, London (early 19th century) was swimming in the sea off Portsmouth when a current got hold of him and he started to drown. A passing Newfoundland hound went into the water after him and pulled him out. The dog had been a stray, and as such I would venture didn't regard Mr. Phillips as part of his pack (as pets tend to do).

What was Mr. Phillips to the dog? Nothing. What did the dog have to gain? Nothing. What did the dog have to lose? Everything.

I don't know much about the breed, but you don't see dogs just going for a dip at the local swimming hole, so I assume that dogs are predisposed to avoid deep water. This dog put that predisposition aside for whatever reason.

So do we guess that the dog made a conscious decision to perform an act of altruism? Or do we really stretch it and say the dog figured that if he helped Mr. Phillips he might get some material gain out of it (food, a home, etc)? Surely no animal has a base instinct to get itself killed in an act that will in no way prolong the life of the pack or species.

Oh, Mr. Phillips took the dog home and "gave him every kind attention that he deserved." The dog has been commemorated on his crest. (Oddly, the article didn't mention the dog's name.)

Newfoundlands are natural swimmers-- webbed feet, water resistant coat, and a rudder that doubles as a tail. They were bred as work dogs which, among other tasks, performed rescues of drowning people.

Oxygen
06-06-06, 08:13 PM
Raphael Thanks for the info. That's pretty cool. I wonder if the dog had been trained before and somehow got separated from his owner? There was no mention to if the dog looked like he'd been a stray for awhile.

Hee hee! You don't hear of cats doing anything like that very often.
SWIMMER: "Help! I'm drowning!"
CAT: "Don't get your panties in a bunch. I'll call 911 as soon as someone invents a telephone."

Jenyar
06-07-06, 07:17 AM
In none of the scriptures left behind by any religion does God make mention of giving these same ethical rules to animals, although some do address animal’s creation (even if swiftly). Nowhere are there stories of this divine knowledge of right and wrong being passed to animals as well...
Did you take this into account?
Genesis 9:5
And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

Ecclesiastes 3:19
Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal.

Oxygen
06-07-06, 09:13 AM
Jenyar What version did your Gen 9:5 come from? Here are parallel verses from other versions of the bible that don't imply that an animal will have to account for his or her own life. To me they seem to say (in so many words) "Everybody dies eventually", not "Behave".

American Standard Version: And surely your blood, the blood of your lives, will I require; At the hand of every beast will I require it. And at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man's brother, will I require the life of man.

Bible In Basic English: And for your blood, which is your life, will I take payment; from every beast I will take it, and from every man will I take payment for the blood of his brother-man.

Darby Bible Translation: And indeed your blood, the blood of your lives, will I require: at the hand of every animal will I require it, and at the hand of Man, at the hand of each the blood of his brother, will I require the life of Man.

King James Version: And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

JPS Tanakh: And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it; and at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man's brother, will I require the life of man.

Webster's Bible Translation: And surely your blood of your lives will I require: at the hand of every beast will I require it: and at the hand of man, at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

World English Bible: I will surely require your blood of your lives. At the hand of every animal I will require it. At the hand of man, even at the hand of every man's brother, I will require the life of man.

Young's Literal Translation: And only your blood for your lives do I require; from the hand of every living thing I require it, and from the hand of man, from the hand of every man's brother I require the life of man;

Raphael
06-07-06, 10:38 AM
Jenyar What version did your Gen 9:5 come from?

New International Version.

BSFilter
06-07-06, 11:18 AM
Wow nice post oxygen. Shows how translations can alter the original message.

Jenyar
06-07-06, 01:26 PM
Jenyar What version did your Gen 9:5 come from? Here are parallel verses from other versions of the bible that don't imply that an animal will have to account for his or her own life. To me they seem to say (in so many words) "Everybody dies eventually", not "Behave".
Well, let's see... to me they all seem to say exactly what the NIV said in more natural English. How do you see the meaning changed, BSFilter?

Look carefully at each translation again. They all say God will require the same accountabilty from the animal as He requires from the man. I'm curious what you see?

BSFilter
06-07-06, 01:44 PM
Well from the first two listed...
"At the hand of every beast will I require it."
"from every beast I will take it"

Funny how one word can change the whole meaning of a sentence. But the translations point was meant to consider Ancient translations. I did not make that clear. Most of those quotes are translations from fairly recent texts, not necessarily ancient times.
In the past, the scriptures were translated and altered to fit the culture of the people who desired it. Same basic teaching, modified slightly through translations into various cultures.

glaucon
06-07-06, 07:31 PM
Anyways, back to the thread...




...
What humans consider moral behavior existed in animals well before any religion wrote them down in scriptures.

...

Yet despite our differences across cultures and religions, we all share a sense of basic ethical principles common to all man-kind (even if we forget/ignore them sometimes).

Overall, some interesting thoughts, but there are some problems simply due to the fact that you've failed to differentiate between "ethic" and "moral".

While you're correct that moral behaviour could be said to have preceded religion, you've failed to recognize how this conflicts with the (tenuous) position that humankind shares ethical principles. The difference lies in the fact that "ethic" connotes a systematization of normative moral principles, whereas "moral" has no such implication. Morality is a value-based judgement. Ethic is a truth-functional judgement.

Jenyar
06-08-06, 04:28 AM
I know this is off topic, but I'd still like to answer what BSFilter said, since his knowledge obviously affects his writing.
Well from the first two listed...
"At the hand of every beast will I require it."
"from every beast I will take it"
The expression "at the hand of" is easily understood, and it does not change the meaning at all. "He experienced a lot of persecution at the hands of his enemies", means the same as "from his enemies". "At the hand of every beast" means "from every beast". Maybe the problem is that you only looked at English translations, as if English itself is always clear.

Funny how one word can change the whole meaning of a sentence. But the translations point was meant to consider Ancient translations. I did not make that clear. Most of those quotes are translations from fairly recent texts, not necessarily ancient times.
Is that a fact, or are you guessing? Newer translations are usually made from older, or more trustworthy texts, as the science of translation progresses and more manuscripts are discovered. Most of the quotes were actually from old translations. Compare for instance the American Standard version Oxygen quoted with the New American Standard (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gen.%209:5;&version=49;8;) version.

In the past, the scriptures were translated and altered to fit the culture of the people who desired it. Same basic teaching, modified slightly through translations into various cultures.
Again, are you guessing, or do you have a source for this claim? Of course, translation is nothing but an alteration of a text to fit a culture (since language is cultural), but it's another thing to claim that meanings are purposely changed (when it happens, like the Mormon or Jehova's Witness translations, everybody knows about it - in particular people who consider the original words sacred). Scholars still have the original Hebrew texts, which were copied with such care that when scribes found an error, they left it there and inserted the correct words in the margin. The Dead Sea Scrolls, for instance, showed almost no deviation between copies and originals a thousand years apart. These original language texts are used every time a new translation is made, so most new translations are only one step away from the originals.

If you still want to believe what you told me and put it in any article or paper, you'll have to support it with facts.

BSFilter
06-08-06, 10:16 AM
Havent you ever played the telephone game? Same idea. Here are just a couple of pages explaining this phenomena, which is by no means new.

http://www.sof-in-australia.org/languageand.htm
http://www.tniv.info/pdf/WhatisBibleTranslation.pdf

Excerpt from first link...

"In the case of the Bible alone, we are talking about changes that have occurred over literally centuries.

Literal Translation?
As one who has spent many years involved in translating materials into other languages (French and Tahitian in our case) I can state quite unequivocally that there is no such thing as a literal or word-for-word translation from one language to another. The differences in the constructions of the various languages and the subtleties of meaning, which can vary so much, make any literal translation quite impossible.

Understanding the Scriptures
What does our awareness of these factors say to us when we try to understand the Scriptures? As I read, I frequently find myself asking questions like: I wonder what word was used in the original language? What did it mean to the people of that time? Was the original word a more formal one or rather more informal “street talk”? Has the meaning changed at all in the centuries since?

The New Testament was written in the common or “street” language of the day. The Greek-speaking world of that time used two forms of the language – a formal version, which was used to write philosophy, history and more academic matters, and an informal version for everyday matters.

Many people are taken aback by the notion that these Scriptures were written in everyday or “street” language. They have become so accustomed to the very formal language of the King James version that they believe that is how it was written in the first place. Yet one look at Jesus shows how he talked with the common people and spoke to them in everyday down-to-earth language – certainly not in the language of early 17th century England!"

Jenyar
06-08-06, 11:29 AM
Neither of those links describe the telephone game, and you've said nothing new. The informal Greek is called koine Greek, and the dialect of Hebrew they used is called Ancient Aramaic.

With every translation, interpretation is necessary. Actually, you have to interpret your native language as well. What is really important is not that every word is exactly as it was in its original language (although a close proximity is what is referred to as a "literal" translation), but that the meaning gets across. The meaning that the author wished to convey, like your first link says.

Since the original language texts have always been available, every translation is once removed form the source. There is no "chain" involved, in fact, the same message has been disseminated many times to many people, and we have all those accounts to compare with each other (See Illustration of Bible text manuscript tree and variant readings (http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualexample.htm)). So it's rather unlike the telephone game (See Hasn't the Bible been rewritten so many times that we can't trust it anymore? (http://www.carm.org/evidence/rewritten.htm)

BSFilter
06-08-06, 11:48 AM
Look Im not here to try to convince someone who obviously has no intention of even CONSIDERING the fact that this happens. The article you provide suggests that errors ARE made, even if a small fraction. It is a question of degree, not whether it happens or not.

Jenyar
06-08-06, 11:50 AM
Obviously it happens to a degree. But if you can see them, you're also aware of them. There's also a lot of in-built redundancy (messages, often whole books are repeated, like Kings and Chronicles, the four gospels, etc.) So if the errors are accounted for, they're not detrimental to the meaning. See?

BSFilter
06-08-06, 12:59 PM
Point taken. But I do believe this has happened more than so what you believe.