The world, that is, the people that "run" the world are morally repugnant in every way.

So we all agree that the ongoing events in Darfur are horrible. The american president says "The people of Darfur need help. They deserve it". So what will we and the rest of the world do? We'll ban our people from doing business with Sudanese government run businesses. For a while. Sanctioins its called. Ouch. 200 thousand+ dead and counting. Genocide. Sanctions.

But if a couple thousand people are killed in an terrorist attack on america, we'll go and attack two countries and conduct a years-long war of occupation in one of them and spend untold hundreds of billions doing it.

By the way, support the childrens relief fund by giving a dollar a week to save a hungry child. Trust me. It'll help. Really :rolleyes:

If anyone needed a reason to hate government and the UN especially (a conglomeration of utterly usless politicians. Lets pass a nifty resolution to burn down the UN next year. Wait. A resolution? Ha!) then look no further than your favorite genocide (I count ongoing world hunger among the biggest world-sanctioned genocides). What's important? Let's see... Good McDonalds food, gigatons of kids toys and fashions shipped from the pacific rim every week. And knowing that you can ignore the worst atrocities while watching seinfeld reruns and having a good laugh. Don't worry. Someone's working, at this very moment, on a resolution that will stop worldwide hunger and genocide. Be patient.

I almost forgot to post my proposal. Pull american troops from iraq and send them to darfur. And use our amazing trillion dollar technology to secure the country and distribute food around the world. And subdue any govenment engaging in genocide and willful starvation of it's people. Wait. We'd have to attack ourselves! There are many thousands of americans starving right now! We can't even help ourselves! What a laugh!

So we all agree that the ongoing events in Darfur are horrible.

Well, the ones who are doing all the killing and raping obviously don't think it's so horrible .....so "we all" don't agree.

By the way, support the childrens relief fund by giving a dollar a week to save a hungry child.

Save him from what? And for what? What's his future in such a place?

I think, instead of giving handouts, we teach them how to fish, then they can learn to live on their own without the constant handouts from others, which only make them dependent on others.

Someone's working, at this very moment, on a resolution that will stop worldwide hunger and genocide. Be patient.

Ha, don't tell us to be patient, tell those people in Darfur. They've waited (and died) for four years or so, they can be patient and wait a few more years.

Baron Max

The African government is corrupt and starving its' own people. How many more billions do you want us to send there? I think we should send condoms too.

Most Christian American churches (including mine) are sending them millions/billions(?) Unfortunately, it will never be enough. Most of it is squandered by their corrupt government.:(

You people are seriously sarcasm/cynical challenged. I understand Baron, but who the fuck are you, sandy, if that is indeed your real name?

You people are seriously sarcasm/cynical challenged. I understand Baron, but who the fuck are you, sandy, if that is indeed your real name?

So ...what are you doing about the situation in Darfur? Or is it just that you want to criticize the USA for something?

Baron Max

Well, the ones who are doing all the killing and raping obviously don't think it's so horrible .....so "we all" don't agree.

What an idiot.


I think, instead of giving handouts, we teach them how to fish, then they can learn to live on their own without the constant handouts from others, which only make them dependent on others.
Brilliant!


Ha, don't tell us to be patient, tell those people in Darfur. They've waited (and died) for four years or so, they can be patient and wait a few more years.
You really are a doofus.

So ...what are you doing about the situation in Darfur? Or is it just that you want to criticize the USA for something?

Baron Max
We (the USA YAY!) are run by a bunch of imperialistic hyppocrites who don't have a shred of real compassion. So stick it Baron.

So ...what are you doing about the situation in Darfur?
I'm wringing my hands and worrying a lot. Oh, and posting my moral outrage wherever I can.

You people are seriously sarcasm/cynical challenged. I understand Baron, but who the fuck are you, sandy, if that is indeed your real name?

Wow. We pull your thread out of boredom and THIS is how you treat us:confused:

Oh, and I am the resident hottie. Ask anyone.;)

http://www.retro-housewife.com/images/beauty/1980/cover-girl-christy-brinkley.jpg

:p

Wow. We pull your thread out of boredom and THIS is how you treat us:confused:

Oh, and I am the resident hottie. Ask anyone.;)

http://www.retro-housewife.com/images/beauty/1980/cover-girl-christy-brinkley.jpg

:p
So, you're useless in otherwords. Thanks for the wave-off lest I waste another sentence on you.

I'm the only female who responded to your post. Don't worry, it will never happen again.:crazy:

I'm the only female who responded to your post. Don't worry, it will never happen again.:crazy:
Air head. Where's sam when you need her?

The African government is corrupt and starving its' own people. How many more billions do you want us to send there? I think we should send condoms too.

Most Christian American churches (including mine) are sending them millions/billions(?) Unfortunately, it will never be enough. Most of it is squandered by their corrupt government.:(

Indeed. We are giving money to a system of governemt that is pernitiously corrupt. All government is corrupt, but not all of them starve and ensalve their people. African governments do. I think that we should adopt the very startrekkian principle of non-interfearence and let the chips on that continent fall where they may.

~String

I love the argument that it's OK for the United States to drop in uninvited on a nation that has nothing to do with our national interests and occupy it if there is some sort of humanitarian disaster there, but if the US puts troops into a place that has a whole heck of a lot to do with our national interests, we're brutal imperialists...

Darfur? Yeah, it sucks. But I'll need convincing before I think it's a good idea for us to put our soldiers on the line to do something about it, convincing along the lines of, is it our responsibility? Does it advance our national interests? Are humanitarian reasons enough?

So now it's ok for us to send our troops to an oil-rich area whose government suppresses its' people:confused:

Remember Somalia? The U.S is not gonna go in Africa again unless it's part of a U.N mission and it does not bear the lion's share burden. Basically, good luck with that.

Africa must solve it's own problems. However it does seem like powerful people that could help, do not. Some do try,(bill gates - i question his motives though, some movie stars). This is not a problem to "throw money at", throwing people at it might help. I like what Oprah did making a school in SA. I hate Oprah but I like the idea. Gotta start somewhere.

(bill gates - i question his motives though, some movie stars).

Gates is hemmoraging cash in Africa and getting nothing for it other than a few international pats on the back. Within five years he'll pretty much sever his ties to Microsoft, on a day to day basis. After that, he plans to spend the bulk of his and Warren Buffett's billions** on various humanitarian efforts. No matter what you may think of how he made his cash, his current philantropic efforts are well intended with little in it for him, except maybe, a Nobel Prize somewhere down the line.

~String
_____________________________________________
**Warren Buffett (America's second richest man, with about 2/3 the worth of Gates) has given the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation the bulk of his wealth as well. I think the total amount that will be given to said fund will total roughly a 100 billion US dollars. Not to mention the "other" donors that are contributing at millions a year-- making it the world's largest NPO philantropic fund. Selfish... evil Americans.

Gee wiz I'm not going to get a warm feeling inside for that story. Gates stole his original O/S from someone else and Warren Buffet is STILL insider trading stocks(his latest is buying Canadian Pacific Railway stock just before it was announced they got the deal to build track to oilsands in Alberta.)

I feel so great that they are giving away billions that they obtained with lies, cheating and sometimes thievery. They are just smart enough, perhaps to realize their rich asses decompose just as fast as the rest of us and they indeed cannot take their billions beyond the pale. It's an attempt at an ego driven legacy and i'm still not convinced these "efforts" are not mercenary.

Gates stole his original O/S from someone else...

Gates bought his original OS from someone else. There that whole "contract" thing that was shown in court that proved it.

You might want to prove that whole claim with something other than a few lines.

And as for Buffett... for better or worse, there isn't a person involved in high level stock markt work that DOESN'T engage in insider trading. I'm not excusing it... just pointing out the obviuos. My various retirement funds are run by insider traders-- and GODAMN I'm glad they do. It's doubled in worth over the last five years.

~String

Gates bought his original OS from someone else. There that whole "contract" thing that was shown in court that proved it.

You might want to prove that whole claim with something other than a few lines.

And as for Buffett... for better or worse, there isn't a person involved in high level stock markt work that DOESN'T engage in insider trading. I'm not excusing it... just pointing out the obviuos. My various retirement funds are run by insider traders-- and GODAMN I'm glad they do. It's doubled in worth over the last five years.

~String

As for Gates- depends who you talk to, bought while inking a deal with IBM is pretty effing underhanded.

So you are ok with insider trading since you also benefit? Well my friend I hope you are pretty high up on the pyramid scheme(actually not really I hope you get what you deserve - useless paper of some companies people used to work for). With money and economics there is ALWAYS a day of reckoning.

So we all agree that the ongoing events in Darfur are horrible. The american president says "The people of Darfur need help. They deserve it". Don't worry. Someone's working, at this very moment, on a resolution that will stop worldwide hunger and genocide. Be patient.
So, do you support the Iraq war? What do you think will happen if we pull out? Do you doubt they'll be a genocide to put Darfur to shame?

Why are so many screaming for us to get out of the civil war in Iraq and into the one in Darfur?

The African government is corrupt and starving its' own people. How many more billions do you want us to send there? I think we should send condoms too.

Most Christian American churches (including mine) are sending them millions/billions(?) Unfortunately, it will never be enough. Most of it is squandered by their corrupt government.:(

which is a tends to be routed in colional roots

which is a tends to be routed in colional roots
Of course, africa was heaven on earth before those evil Europeans showed up. As evidenced by how quickly they bounced back once their oppressors left!

Air head. Where's sam when you need her?

Ah, sorry babe, my brother was down for the weekend; was being the good elder sister and feeding him and taking him around.

How are you supe?

OT, I feel for you, I wish people were as willing to resolve problems as they are to make a quick buck from them. It is a morally repugnant world.:bawl:

Throwing money at them will not help solve their problems; it may help to not sell them arms or support militias, though.

The situation is not helped by the fact that there has been famine there for eight years, not to mention civil war for the last 50, and refugees of war are also competitors for food and resources, which only contributes to the vicious circle. What they need is food and medicine, a lot of it.

...it may help to not sell them arms or support militias, though.

There's a novel idea!

~String

Well as far as that goes, "Militias" are armed with Aks and "Governments" are armed with western made weapons. Now even if you don't pick side on this, you have old east bloc, supplying to "instability" and the west supplying to "stability" good or bad. I would say the western arms industry supports "stability" in Africa more than old east bloc industrialists, so it would seem that they are more in support of Africa(again not for moral reasons perhaps), than the east.

Well as far as that goes, "Militias" are armed with Aks
And FALs, and H&Ks etc.
and "Governments" are armed with western made weapons. Now even if you don't pick side on this, you have old east bloc, supplying to "instability" and the west supplying to "stability" good or bad. I would say the western arms industry supports "stability" in Africa more than old east bloc industrialists, so it would seem that they are more in support of Africa(again not for moral reasons perhaps), than the east.
One man's "stability"...

Well as far as that goes, "Militias" are armed with Aks and "Governments" are armed with western made weapons. Now even if you don't pick side on this, you have old east bloc, supplying to "instability" and the west supplying to "stability" good or bad. I would say the western arms industry supports "stability" in Africa more than old east bloc industrialists, so it would seem that they are more in support of Africa(again not for moral reasons perhaps), than the east.

All the dictators in Africa are supported by the Eastbloc? That's news to me.

And FALs, and H&Ks etc.

One man's "stability"...

Well anyone who manages to obtain an FAL should immediately be crowned, such ability and taste should be rewarded.

All the dictators in Africa are supported by the Eastbloc? That's news to me.

Well, it shouldn't be news to you, Sam. The Russians have supported socialist militias and revolutionaries in Africa since ...ages and ages ago. Just like they do in South America and Central Amercia. Where have you been?

Baron Max

All the dictators in Africa are supported by the Eastbloc? That's news to me.

Yes Sam Mubuto was supported by the Eastern bloc for many years before he was toppled,

Well, it shouldn't be news to you, Sam. The Russians have supported socialist militias and revolutionaries in Africa since ...ages and ages ago. Just like they do in South America and Central Amercia. Where have you been?

Baron Max

Strange, they have had no terrorist attacks on the Kremlin, hmm?

Yes Sam Mubuto was supported by the Eastern bloc for many years before he was toppled,

Are you sure?:confused:

Are you sure?:confused:

Sorry i forgot to :rolleyes:

Strange, they have had no terrorist attacks on the Kremlin, hmm?

Why is that strange?? The Russias support the terrorists and insurgents and revolutionaries in Africa ....why would they blow up the Kremlin????? The Kremlin is where their support comes from! What are you smoking, Sam?

Baron Max

Why is that strange?? The Russias support the terrorists and insurgents and revolutionaries in Africa ....why would they blow up the Kremlin????? The Kremlin is where their support comes from! What are you smoking, Sam?

Baron Max

So the terrorists are from the government?:confused:

So the terrorists are from the government?:confused:

Huh? What the fuck are you talking about??

Sam, it's common knowledge that the Russians as well as the Cubans have been in Africa helping the socialist insurgents and revolutionaries for decades. Why is it that you don't know that???????

Baron Max

I'd like to address the whole "money for Africa bit," which sounds nice in theory but is horrible in practice.

It's been pretty well established now that the event in the 1980s to raise money to combat starvation in Ethiopia (I forget its name) turned out to be one of the worst things that ever happened for that country, in that the influx of cash helped propped up a brutal dictatorship. Continuing along those lines, I think pouring cash into Africa nowadays does much the same thing. It helps those in power stay in power, because who disperses those funds or works with the aid organizations? The governments, that's who.

So to make something of a pragmatic, Malthusian argument, doing nothing to help the terrible conditions in these failed states might be "harsh" or "cruel" in the short run, but in the long run it may actually speed up the demise of some of these governments, and thus speed up the process of securing a better way of life for these people...

Huh? What the fuck are you talking about??

Sam, it's common knowledge that the Russians as well as the Cubans have been in Africa helping the socialist insurgents and revolutionaries for decades. Why is it that you don't know that???????

Baron Max

Could you give me ONE example? A name?

Could you give me ONE example? A name?

Angola is a good start. Russian and Cuban troops were all over that region in the 80s and 90s. I don't know if they're still there, but I think they are!

And, Sam, that's not the only nation. They're doing the same in Central American and South American nations ...advisors to the socialist insurgents/freedom fighters, suppliers of military equipment, etc.

Baron Max

Sam, read a book called The World was Going our Way, it's all about Soviet involvement in the Third World during the Cold War...

Sam, read a book called The World was Going our Way, it's all about Soviet involvement in the Third World during the Cold War...

Sam probably won't like it 'cause it's not a "Hate America" book!

Baron Max

Angola is a good start. Russian and Cuban troops were all over that region in the 80s and 90s. I don't know if they're still there, but I think they are!

And, Sam, that's not the only nation. They're doing the same in Central American and South American nations ...advisors to the socialist insurgents/freedom fighters, suppliers of military equipment, etc.

Baron Max

Are they having a civil war in Angola?

Sam, read a book called The World was Going our Way, it's all about Soviet involvement in the Third World during the Cold War...

Why not give me a current example of a country that the Russians have destroyed?

In like manner?

http://www.amazon.com/Overthrow-Americas-Century-Regime-Change/dp/0805082409/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-4862157-0245558?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180568770&sr=8-2

Are they having a civil war in Angola?

Geez, yeah, I think so. But if not in Angola, then there are plenty of other places where Russia has placed it's hands.

I'm honestly surprised by your lack of knowledge about this issue, Sam. I can only imagine that it's due to your intense hatred of the USA that you just blind yourself to any other nation causing problems in the world.

Hate, Sam, is not good for you ....and your mother would be sorely disappointed in your behavior. I like your mother, but you, ....?

Baron Max

Geez, yeah, I think so. But if not in Angola, then there are plenty of other places where Russia has placed it's hands.

I'm honestly surprised by your lack of knowledge about this issue, Sam. I can only imagine that it's due to your intense hatred of the USA that you just blind yourself to any other nation causing problems in the world.

Hate, Sam, is not good for you ....and your mother would be sorely disappointed in your behavior. I like your mother, but you, ....?

Baron Max

My mother (Allah rest her soul) was more extreme than I could ever be. You mean my grandmother, perhaps.

One country Russia has destroyed? Chechnya...

One country Russia has destroyed? Chechnya...

Russia did a pretty damned fair job of wrecking Afghanistan, too.

Baron Max

One country Russia has destroyed? Chechnya...

They moved it from Africa?:eek:

Russia did a pretty damned fair job of wrecking Afghanistan, too.

Baron Max

Yeah all those weird secular communists. Thank god the Americans put the Northern Alliance back after the Afghanis kicked them out.

yeah thats back when we were supporting bin ladn

Sam why don't you educate yourself before you run off at the mouth about things?

If you took even a cursory glance at recent history, you'd understand that countries like Yugoslavia, Czechslovakia, East Germany and others were all essentially "wrecked" by Soviet imperialism during the Cold War. In other words, there's more to geopolitics than hating on the US...

Sam why don't you educate yourself before you run off at the mouth about things?

If you took even a cursory glance at recent history, you'd understand that countries like Yugoslavia, Czechslovakia, East Germany and others were all essentially "wrecked" by Soviet imperialism during the Cold War. In other words, there's more to geopolitics than hating on the US...

You could try reading the thread yourself, we're talking about Africa (which btw is NOT a country)

You could try reading the thread yourself, we're talking about Africa (which btw is NOT a country)

No, you asked about what countries that Russia had been involved with. I was the one who brought up Africa, Sam, but I also mentioned Central and South America. Which you didn't even mention ...until someone actually started naming countries ...which you didn't like!!

You're really more ignorant than even I first thought. That hatred of the US has done something bad to your mind.

Baron Max

Exactly Sam, your question was: "Why not give me a current example of a country that the Russians have destroyed?" You didn't specify Africa. So now you're just floundering...

No, you asked about what countries that Russia had been involved with. I was the one who brought up Africa, Sam, but I also mentioned Central and South America. Which you didn't even mention ...until someone actually started naming countries ...which you didn't like!!

You're really more ignorant than even I first thought. That hatred of the US has done something bad to your mind.

Baron Max

Exactly Sam, your question was: "Why not give me a current example of a country that the Russians have destroyed?" You didn't specify Africa. So now you're just floundering...

Cry me a river, I should have realised that some people like all their i's dotted.

Boo hoo.

So what dictatorships has Russia supported in Africa and what regime changes have the Soviets initiated in Africa?

Yes I love it! When we do something to defend our economy and security we are Bad America, when we don't give money away like potato chips we are Bad America, if we do go into Darfur, and clean up the mess, how long will it be before you, superluminal and the rest of your ilk start screaming what a bully the U.S. is.

The only way to clean up the mass in Darfur is through military action, the same type of military action that we took in Iraq, to make these people play nice, you have to kick some ass militarily, which means people will die, the bad people, the good people, the culpable people, the innocent, and our people, so if you want us out of Iraq, please explain the difference between Iraq and Darfur, It involve a corrupt government, It involves the Moslems Terrorist, it involves the Oil rich south of Darfur, it involves hundreds of thousands dieing at the hands of the government in mass executions, it involves pulling the Moslems Chestnuts out of the fire like we did in Yugoslavia, all the while we are being attack by other Moslems around the world for going to the aid of Moslem countries, (Iraq, Afghanistan), Yugoslavia and the Tsunami Victims ( we the people of the United States gave more out of our own pockets personnel), gave hundreds of millions more more than any Islamic country in the world and that don't include the hundreds of millions of government aid, and now you want us to go some were else to get kicked in the face, and get no thanks because we would clean up the problem the way that it needs to be cleaned up, by changing the Government in power and kicking the terrorist ass, to make the area safe for the Moslems again. Make up your Dammed mind, if you want us involved it is going to require a major military effort, just like Afghanistan, and Iraq, the U.N. will be as useful as tits on a bore hog, and even if they were involved we would have to supply the major force and money for such a action, and the co-operation of the rest of the world, and remember our liberal friend the Demorats? How long before they would be beating the Cut and Run drum because people were getting killed and we weren't winning the thing fast enough, with out getting anyone killed?

Yeah lets repeat what doesn't work since its fun to shoot people and btw also support the arms industry. Especially since its Third World people who will be mostly dying.

After reading "what regime changes have the Soviets initiated in Russia," I'm forced to conclude I'm dealing with either Sam's obvious penchant for mindless provocation or just plain stupidity. Either way, I'm done here. She has ruined another thread for me...

Yeah lets repeat what doesn't work since its fun to shoot people and btw also support the arms industry. Especially since its Third World people who will be mostly dying.

....LOL!! You're pathetic when you're trapped and your bluff has been called, Sam! ...LOL!!

Now you try to change the whole topic so you can appear to get out of the mess your hatred got you into. This is funny, really fuckin' funny!!! :D

Baron Max

After reading "what regime changes have the Soviets initiated in Russia," I'm forced to conclude I'm dealing with either Sam's obvious penchant for mindless provocation or just plain stupidity. Either way, I'm done here. She has ruined another thread for me...

Oops that was a boo boo. :o

....LOL!! You're pathetic when you're trapped and your bluff has been called, Sam! ...LOL!!

Now you try to change the whole topic so you can appear to get out of the mess your hatred got you into. This is funny, really fuckin' funny!!! :D

Baron Max

You must have an interesting fantasy life.:eek:

You must have an interesting fantasy life.

Oh, I do, Sam, ....but it's not nearly as fanciful as yours!!

Baron Max

I think you all musunderstand my position.

I'm all for brute force in the pursuit of liberty and security for all of the worlds people.

With iraq we should have gone in and taken over for the sake of the oppressed people there, not some pathetic lies about WMD's followed by terrorist rhetoric when that lie fell apart.

My whole point is that the world as a whole (the people we alloe to run it) are largely morally repugnant. Bush is a liar and a moron. We go into Iraq for no good reason other than those motivated by politics and then whine about Darfur and do not one damned substantive thing. Or any other genocide ridden nation.

If anyone here thinks money is the issue with regard to solving world hunger or bringing nations from the fucking stone-age into the 21st century, just look at the stats for the world expenditure on pet treats and cosmetics (either of which alone could fund the most elaborate national projects you can imagine).

So, as a responsible parent do I stand by while another parent beats her child in the street? No, I go over and deck the asswipe and rescue the child.

What moral or ethical imperative are the worlds nations exercising with regard to Darfur and the like?

It's just plain morally repugnant.

As a world, it's about time we toss the nationalistic bullshit and declare that all developed nations will band together descend like flaming angels of judgement on any nation, such as Darfur, that decides to eradicate humans on a mass scale. And that applies to ourselves too. The UN should be sending troops into the US to put an end to our government sponsored starvation of a large portion of our population. Hungry people in the US? How fucking rediculous and morally repugnant is that? It's like Bill Gates having ten kids and deciding that one or two of them is beneath notice for proper care or feeding.

And money has nothing to do with it. That's a fact.

Have you been skipping your meds again? :bugeye:

Have you been skipping your meds again? :bugeye:
As a matter of fact, I've weaned off of them completely as of two weeks ago. I've become more agressive, irritable, I'm at a loss for words in normal conversation, and I have "drop-outs" when my head spins a bit and there's a dull "buzzing" that pervades my whole head.

I f this keeps up I'm going back on some other variety with, hopefully, fewer withdrawl symptoms.

Have you been skipping your meds again? :bugeye:

Anyway, what's wrong with the UN becoming the right hand of god when it comes to enforcing the non-extermination of fellow humans?

As a matter of fact, I've weaned off of them completely as of two weeks ago. I've become more agressive, irritable, I'm at a loss for words in normal conversation, and I have "drop-outs" when my head spins a bit and there's a dull "buzzing" that pervades my whole head.

I f this keeps up I'm going back on some other variety with, hopefully, fewer withdrawl symptoms.

Deal with it, dammit!:mad: :D

Anyway, what's wrong with the UN becoming the right hand of god when it comes to enforcing the non-extermination of fellow humans?

The whole problem with the world today is other people enforcing their decisions on people without power.

Deal with it, dammit!:mad: :D
Ah, sympathy. Thank you...

The whole problem with the world today is other people enforcing their decisions on people without power.
Yes. Like leaders killing them without their consent...

Ah, sympathy. Thank you...

I'm a great believer in the healing powers of huggz, chicken soup and tough love.:p

Yes. Like leaders killing them without their consent...

Sadly, yes.

Sadly, yes.
So, your approach is to sigh, make a few "sympathetic" remarks, and continue to respect the right of a soverign nation to exterminate is human content?

So, your approach is to sigh, make a few "sympathetic" remarks, and continue to respect the right of a soverign nation to exterminate is human content?

As against the "right" of a sovereign nation to exterminate the human content of another nation?

Thats a tough one.:bugeye:

As against the "right" of a sovereign nation to exterminate the human content of another nation?

Thats a tough one.:bugeye:
No. As against the "right" of any nation to exterminate it's own or the human content of other nations. Let's not turn this into an anti american thread. I already know what pricks we are. This is an anti-stupidity and anti-morally bankrupt world ethic.

No. As against the "right" of any nation to exterminate it's own or the human content of other nations. Let's not turn this into an anti american thread. I already know what pricks we are. This is an anti-stupidity and anti-morally bankrupt world ethic.

I was thinking more in terms of the colonialists "rescuing" the aborigines.

I was thinking more in terms of the colonialists "rescuing" the aborigines.

Ya' mean the "aborigines" who chased out or killed the aborigines who were there before they showed up? Those aborigines?

Baron Max

Ya' mean the "aborigines" who chased out or killed the aborigines who were there before they showed up? Those aborigines?

Baron Max

Where was this?

Where was this?

Wherever you want it to be.

Baron Max

Oh, except India ...the perfect nation and people who've never done anything to anyone else in the whole fuckin' gazillion years that India has been land and not ocean. And where they've always had open sewers for the people to enjoy.

Wherever you want it to be.

Baron Max

Oh, except India ...the perfect nation and people who've never done anything to anyone else in the whole fuckin' gazillion years that India has been land and not ocean. And where they've always had open sewers for the people to enjoy.

boy, you sure are bored today, aren't you? :)

I was thinking more in terms of the colonialists "rescuing" the aborigines.
Try to focus sam. God knows I cant...

Let's not succumb to the "if we enforce the non-genocide of populations then we'll have to become totalitarian invaders of all nations for any reason we want" syndrome.

That's how politicians look at things. We have all sorts of graduated freedoms and restrictions as it is. It's perfectly acceptable and even encouraged to have the ploice break into a house to stop the bloody, screaming murder of a family. Do we worry overly about the police breaking into our houses to stop the screaming kids birthday party? Not really. It's all about rationality and checks and balances. It could even work in the world at large. If we stopped acting like petulant six-year olds protecting their favorite toy and trying to show how big and bad we are.

We're idiots, as a group.

Try to focus sam. God knows I cant...

Let's not succumb to the "if we enforce the non-genocide of populations then we'll have to become totalitarian invaders of all nations for any reason we want" syndrome.

That's how politicians look at things. We have all sorts of graduated freedoms and restrictions as it is. It's perfectly acceptable and even encouraged to have the ploice break into a house to stop the bloody, screaming murder of a family. Do we worry overly about the police breaking into our houses to stop the screaming kids birthday party? Not really. It's all about rationality and checks and balances. It could even work in the world at large. If we stopped acting like petulant six-year olds protecting their favorite toy and trying to show how big and bad we are.

We're idiots, as a group.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I dislike the idea of enforcement, it has a tendency to succumb to totalitarianism

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I dislike the idea of enforcement, it has a tendency to succumb to totalitarianism
Any kind of enforcement? So what is the Indian equivalent of a libertarian?

I'm kind of suprised.

Do you not approve of the enforcement of laws that govenr the non-murder of people? Can you not extend that sentiment to the world at large?

Or do you approve of mass murder?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

BTW, nifty folk-wisdom sayings are usually pretty narrow in their usefulness. One could just as easily say that the road to all great and successful human endeavors is paved with good intentions.

Any kind of enforcement? So what is the Indian equivalent of a libertarian?

I'm kind of suprised.

Do you not approve of the enforcement of laws that govenr the non-murder of people? Can you not extend that sentiment to the world at large?

Or do you approve of mass murder?

The enforcement of laws breeds its own totalitarianism. Cops are as abusive as criminals, soldiers as prone to violence. Prison does not really reform, does it? Somehow, I have never considered separation and ostracism as an ideal method of reinforcement.

BTW, nifty folk-wisdom sayings are usually pretty narrow in their usefulness. One could just as easily say that the road to all great and successful human endeavors is paved with good intentions.

Human endeavors are rarely a result of good intentions. Most are selfish in their basic premise.

The enforcement of laws breeds its own totalitarianism. Cops are as abusive as criminals, soldiers as prone to violence.

But what would society have without them? I don't disagree with your statement, Sam, but the alternative seems rather harsh, don't you think ...people taking the law into their own hands?

Prison does not really reform, does it?

Prisons were never intended to reform, only to punish wrong-doing.

Somehow, I have never considered separation and ostracism as an ideal method of reinforcement.

I think that would be a great alternative ...but separate them to ...where???

Baron Max

Human endeavors are rarely a result of good intentions. Most are selfish in their basic premise.

Hmm, I think you're failing to realize that it could be a combination of the two. In which case, it changes a lot of the meaning of your post, don't it?

Baron Max

But what would society have without them? I don't disagree with your statement, Sam, but the alternative seems rather harsh, don't you think ...people taking the law into their own hands?


I think we focus too much on symptoms of crime and not enough on the basics of a strong viable society



Prisons were never intended to reform, only to punish wrong-doing.

But the basic aim is to avoid repetition of the wrongdoing, in which they fail miserably; people become more hardened as criminals after going to prison.



I think that would be a great alternative ...but separate them to ...where???

Baron Max

I said NEVER, Baron; in my opinion, such people should be brought into the fold of society, not cast away from it.

Hmm, I think you're failing to realize that it could be a combination of the two. In which case, it changes a lot of the meaning of your post, don't it?

Baron Max

Have you ever known people to undertake an endeavor from which there was no personal benefit or satisfaction?

I think we focus too much on symptoms of crime and not enough on the basics of a strong viable society

I would have to agree. However, we also can't ignore the symptoms of crime and it's affect on the society. So.....?

Sam, I think it's a matter of population. In tiny little towns, pop. 2,500, crime is almost unheard of ...violent criminal acts never occur. The larger the town/city, the more anonymity, the easier it is to get away with something. And with humans, if they think they can do something and get away, they'll do it!

But the basic aim is to avoid repetition of the wrongdoing, in which they fail miserably; people become more hardened as criminals after going to prison.

Sam, you're expecting miracles or perfection ....in a world of humans?? No, you might be right about it, but that doesn't change the fact that society is "FORCED" to deal with the criminals ....ain't no other way ever been found that works.

Baron Max

Have you ever known people to undertake an endeavor from which there was no personal benefit or satisfaction?

No, but that doesn't mean there is no good intentions to provide society or humanity with the results. The two aren't mutually exclusive, Sam.

Baron Max

I would have to agree. However, we also can't ignore the symptoms of crime and it's affect on the society. So.....?

Sam, I think it's a matter of population. In tiny little towns, pop. 2,500, crime is almost unheard of ...violent criminal acts never occur. The larger the town/city, the more anonymity, the easier it is to get away with something. And with humans, if they think they can do something and get away, they'll do it!

I agree with this; it is the basis of my reasoning that ostracism from society pushes people further away from leading a life without crime. They tend to see themselves as more "other".



Sam, you're expecting miracles or perfection ....in a world of humans?? No, you might be right about it, but that doesn't change the fact that society is "FORCED" to deal with the criminals ....ain't no other way ever been found that works.

Baron Max

I have great expectations from people; its amazing what we can do if we put our minds to it.:)

No, but that doesn't mean there is no good intentions to provide society or humanity with the results. The two aren't mutually exclusive, Sam.

Baron Max

I don't disagree, what I meant to say is that rarely is it a selfless act, with no personal benefit or satisfaction. And sadly, that concept seems rarer and rarer these days.:(

I agree with this; it is the basis of my reasoning that ostracism from society pushes people further away from leading a life without crime. They tend to see themselves as more "other".

But how? Where are they going to go? How do they live? See? I don't disagree with WHAT you're saying, but it's unworkable.

In the Plains Indians of the American west, if a member of the tribe fucked up badly, he was ostracized from the tribe. But, Sam, think about it for a moment ....on the wild, open plains of the west, without anyone to help, they were dead within a few days ...wolves, bears, coyotes, lions, hunger, thirst,..... it was a death sentence, plain and simple.

I have great expectations from people; its amazing what we can do if we put our minds to it.

Well, while you're luxuriating in the fantasies of wonders, don't forget the horrors that we're capable of, too. And the world, as it is today, should be enough evidence of that realm too. So don't dream yourself into ONLY the good .....while ignoring the bad. It ain't healthy.

Baron Max

But how? Where are they going to go? How do they live? See? I don't disagree with WHAT you're saying, but it's unworkable.

In the Plains Indians of the American west, if a member of the tribe fucked up badly, he was ostracized from the tribe. But, Sam, think about it for a moment ....on the wild, open plains of the west, without anyone to help, they were dead within a few days ...wolves, bears, coyotes, lions, hunger, thirst,..... it was a death sentence, plain and simple.



Well, while you're luxuriating in the fantasies of wonders, don't forget the horrors that we're capable of, too. And the world, as it is today, should be enough evidence of that realm too. So don't dream yourself into ONLY the good .....while ignoring the bad. It ain't healthy.

Baron Max


The way I see it, people on their own do things they would not do in the company of others.:)

The way I see it, people on their own do things they would not do in the company of others.

Hmm, I don't know about that, Sam. In fact, it might actually be wrong ...becuase most criminals are friends with other criminals who give them moral support, if not actual support in the crimes. No, I think you're wrong. What you're thinking, of course, is that the other people are "nice people", which ain't no proven fact.

I do see what you're trying to say, I think ....like the little, tiny towns, right? Where people just don't do things because others are always around and watching? Is that sorta' what ye're thinking???? If so, the anonymity of a huge city makes it non-sensical, don't it.

Baron Max

Hmm, I don't know about that, Sam. In fact, it might actually be wrong ...becuase most criminals are friends with other criminals who give them moral support, if not actual support in the crimes. No, I think you're wrong. What you're thinking, of course, is that the other people are "nice people", which ain't no proven fact.

I do see what you're trying to say, I think ....like the little, tiny towns, right? Where people just don't do things because others are always around and watching? Is that sorta' what ye're thinking???? If so, the anonymity of a huge city makes it non-sensical, don't it.

Baron Max

Criminals behave badly in the company of other criminals, true, but do they behave as badly in the company of other people?

Criminals behave badly in the company of other criminals, true, but do they behave as badly in the company of other people?

Well, yeah, Sam, I think that's why they're called "criminals", ain't it? And really, criminals seldom, if ever, victimize their own friends and supporters ...other criminals.

But it's odd that you want such people in such close proximity to "nice" people. How do the "nice" people feel about being forced to endure the company of criminals or, at best, people who would be criminals if given the chance and/or opportunity?

Baron Max