Morality of Water Torture

The present question regarding the nature and morality of torture offers us an excellent opportunity to advance the level of sophistication of our understanding of morality. We learn best when we are questioning a matter that is meaningful to us.

I was eleven years old when Germany and Japan surrendered and WWII was finally over. One searing memory of this war were the stories I read and the movies I watched during and after the war regarding the torture and general brutality that the German Gestapo inflicted upon the people they conquered. I do not know why this left such a strong impression on me but it certainly did.

Coincidentally I have been studying “Moral Imagination” by Mark Johnson. This is the same Johnson who coauthored the book “Philosophy in the Flesh” with George Lakoff. I have decided to apply the theories Johnson presents in his book as a means to illuminate this matter regarding the morality of water torture used by my country in our struggle with Islamic extremists.

Moral understanding is like any other kind of experience; when we examine a domain of experience that relates to human relationships we must focus our attention on human understanding it self. If we do so we discover that human understanding is fundamentally imaginative in character.

“Many of our most basic concepts have considerable internal structure that cannot be accounted for by the classical theory of concepts as defined by necessary and sufficient features…The primary forms of moral imagination are concepts with prototype structure, semantic frames, conceptual metaphors, and narratives.”

To become morally insightful we must become knowledgeable of these imaginative structures. First, we must give up our illusions about absolute moral codes and also our radical moral subjectivism. Second we must refine our “perception of character traits and situations and of developing empathetic imagination to take up the part of others.”

Empathy is a character trait that can be cultivated by habit and will. Sympathy is somewhat of an automatic response.

When we see a mother weeping over the death of her child caused by a suicide bomber we feel immediate sympathy. Often we will come to tears. But we do not feel anything like that for the mother who may be weeping over the death of her child who was the bomber.

To understand the bomber we must use empathy. We attempt through imagination and reason to create a situation that will allow us to understand why this was done. This is a rational means to understand someone who acts different than we would.

“Empathy is the idea that the vital properties which we experience in or attribute to any person or object outside ourselves are the projections of our own feelings and thoughts.”

The subject viewing an object of art experiences emotional attitudes leading to feelings that are attributes of qualities in the art object thus aesthetic pleasure may be considered as “objectified self-enjoyment in which the subject and object are fused.”

The social sciences adopt a similar concept called ‘empathic understanding’, which refers to the deliberate attempt to identify with another person and accounting for that persons actions by “our own immediate experience of our motivations and attitudes in similar circumstances as we remember or imagine them”. This idea refers to a personal resonance between two people.

“What is crucial is that our moral reasoning can be constrained by the metaphoric and other imaginative structures shared within our culture and moral tradition, yet it can also be creative in transforming our moral understanding, our identity, and the course of our lives. Without this kind of imaginative reasoning we would lead dreadfully impoverished lives. We would be reduced to repeating habitual actions, driven by forces and contingencies beyond our control.”

Can you imagine an individual who is a hard headed realist and very accomplished at empathy sanctioning the use of water torture on anyone, friend or enemy?

Without this kind of imaginative reasoning we would lead dreadfully impoverished lives. We would be reduced to repeating habitual actions, driven by forces and contingencies beyond our controlInteresting.

Why do you say sympathy is automatic but empathy is learned?

Running water down the nose of a demonic terrorist is NOTHING compared to his sawing the head off an innocent person. :(

I was eleven years old when Germany and Japan surrendered and WWII was finally over. One searing memory of this war were the stories I read and the movies I watched during and after the war regarding the torture and general brutality that the German Gestapo inflicted upon the people they conquered. I do not know why this left such a strong impression on me but it certainly did.I was only two so I didn't see the visual images. But the verbal descriptions were enough to make the same impression on me. I was only three years too old to be part of the Baby Boom and the tiny population of War Babies had to choose which generation to tag along with. I chose the Boomers primarily because I couldn't stand the music that the older kids were listening to. In line with that, I found the images from Hiroshima and Nagasaki to be just as stomach-turning as the ones from Auschwitz. I had no trouble enforcing the Generation Gap and declaring that my parents' entire generation, whether the German, Japanese or American contingent, had abrogated its right to be treated as respected elders, and it was time to turn society upside down and shake it. (Racial discrimination, sexism, and many other institutions venerated in America and elsewhere reinforced this attitude.)

I think it is perfectly normal to be revulsed by images of people performing deeds that have no purpose in a civilized society. One can excuse war itself (although I and many others do not) because it is marketed so cleverly to the populace by its leaders, but one cannot excuse sheer brutality for its own sake.First, we must give up our illusions about absolute moral codes and also our radical moral subjectivism.Civilization has been a twelve-thousand-year exercise in learning how to override the instincts of the Mesolithic pack-hunter inside us with reasoned and learned behavior. During those twelve thousand years we have painstakingly discovered the elements of an absolute moral code that is necessary for the survival of civilization. (And perhaps even sufficient for the survival of civilization at any given stage.) One of those is that no one has the right to kill another person except in self-defense against a direct threat; in other words anyone who initiates violence has separated himself from civilization. To live otherwise is to devote so much of our attention, energy and other resources to protecting ourselves from each other that the economies of scale and division of labor that produce a surplus and make civilization a superior lifestyle will not accrue and we might as well remain nomadic hunter-gatherers.

This is an absolute moral code that is supported by logic and has no subjectivism except insofar as some people claim that they would be happier in the Stone Age.When we see a mother weeping over the death of her child caused by a suicide bomber we feel immediate sympathy. Often we will come to tears. But we do not feel anything like that for the mother who may be weeping over the death of her child who was the bomber.Speak for yourself. You're older than I so you must have met even more people in your longer life than I have. I have personally known parents whose children committed unspeakable crimes. I had no problem empathizing with how they felt. I have no children but I have watched one of my beloved pets kill another and felt the unbearable mixture of emotions: anger, loss, grief, forgiveness... It is not an impossible stretch to imagine how a parent feels whose child has killed his brother, much less a stranger. The empathy you speak of is not buried all that deeply and requires no alchemy to conjure it up.The subject viewing an object of art experiences emotional attitudes leading to feelings that are attributes of qualities in the art object thus aesthetic pleasure may be considered as “objectified self-enjoyment in which the subject and object are fused."Indeed. Art is a vehicle for connecting us to the emotions of others, or to hypothetical emotions. The greater the art, the more of us it can connect with.The social sciences adopt a similar concept called ‘empathic understanding’, which refers to the deliberate attempt to identify with another person and accounting for that persons actions by “our own immediate experience of our motivations and attitudes in similar circumstances as we remember or imagine them”. This idea refers to a personal resonance between two people.Okay. But I don't think that personal resonance is necessary for the understanding. If one truly appreciates civilization, and furthermore truly understands it, empathy is not only logical, but it is natural. Whenever one witnesses a violation of the principles of civilization, one is witnessing a local breakdown of civilization. If that breakdown spreads, we can be on our way back to the Stone Age. That is something we quite reasonably oppose and are willing to devote energy to preventing.Without this kind of imaginative reasoning we would lead dreadfully impoverished lives. We would be reduced to repeating habitual actions, driven by forces and contingencies beyond our control.I suppose it's a different kind of reasoning than my own hypothesis. If it works, it works. But I think simple appreciation for the benefits of civilization, coupled with an adequate education so one understands why civilization exists and how it works, can motivate the same behavior.Can you imagine an individual who is a hard headed realist and very accomplished at empathy sanctioning the use of water torture on anyone, friend or enemy?Life is full of compromises and we all learn that there are no absolute statements (including this one :)).

There are situations in which we must kill someone who poses no direct threat to us. The classic example is a captured terrorist. If we keep him alive in prison, his buddies will kidnap twenty of our people and promise to kill them if we don't turn him loose. The Israelis will not turn him loose and let the twenty hostages die; other people will make the opposite choice and let the terrorist go off to kill a hundred more people. The only rational choice is to execute the terrorist before his buddies have a chance to start gathering hostages.

Waterboarding surely falls into that category. In some few cases it may be the only way to obtain information that will save the lives of a great number of people. We expect our leaders to make difficult compromises. We just expect them to make them wisely. The number of cases of torture committed during one presidential administration when there is not even a declared war occurring should be in the very low single digits, I mean in the range of zero to one.

Civilization is resilient and can in fact survive a great many violations of its principles without collapsing. Nonetheless each of those violations slows down its advance. It's reasonable to minimize those violations. It should make us feel better to minimize them, both because we love civilization and because we are outraged by such violations.

To achieve perfection is impossible, but to strive for it is noble. We have too many ignoble people in positions of leadership. Nonetheless I feel that the Baby Boomer generation was successful in creating a society that is qualitatively superior to that of its parents. We have waterboarding but no Auschwitz or Hiroshima. The largest body count of any war since WWII is the five million in the Congo civil war, as opposed to WWII's sixty million. We're doing better and the fact that we are not perfect should not stop us from appreciating the fact that we indeed are doing better.

coberst .....

If your family was being held hostage and one of the kidnappers was found but wouldn't tell you where your family was, what would you do?

If your family was being held hostage and one of the kidnappers was found but wouldn't tell you where your family was, what would you do?We have to remember that the accuracy of statements given under torture is dismally low. Trained professionals can resist; untrained amateurs will tell you whatever they think you want to hear even if they don't know the answer.

Never forget that the best way to get to someone is not to attack him personally but to harm his family. Now ask yourself, what would YOU do?

Running water down the nose of a demonic terrorist is NOTHING compared to his sawing the head off an innocent person.And two wrongs still don't make a right, even if one is less wrong than the other.

Interesting.

Why do you say sympathy is automatic but empathy is learned?

Because that is how we define the two words.

coberst .....

If your family was being held hostage and one of the kidnappers was found but wouldn't tell you where your family was, what would you do?

I would call a cop.

You guys overcomplicate the issue:

First it is really doesn't matter if the issue is waterboarding or let's say skinburning. Torture is tortue.

Second, there is good torture and bad torture.

If you can't decide which is which, look up the thread titled the same...

Imagine if every country had their methods of interrogation scrutinized to the level of the U.S, post 9/11. Two wrongs don't make a right, but suppose the information obtained from the interrogation prevented another attack. An attack that might have claimed someone you love. Would you wish them dead, so that the U.S. can claim the moral high ground against an enemy that clearly has no intentions of following any conventions, with regards to warfare? Would that help you to sleep better at night, knowing that while the world might be a little more dangerous tonight, at least the U.S. plays fair in this fight? I realize the presumption is that the U.S., as the worlds lone superpower, is to always take the high road, but what will that really gain against a non-state enemy?

The thread starter mentioned the Gestapo, and certainly their methods are the most well known of that era, but an Allied POW of Japan in WW2 was ten times more likely to die than a prisoner of Germany. You don't hear that brought up a lot anymore, but certainly my parents, and my grandparents were acutely aware, and right or wrong, it shaped the way they view/viewed the Japanese culture. Has that legacy of shameful human rights abuses followed the Japanese around the way it has the Germans? I would say not in this hemisphere anyway. I couldn't speak for the rest of Asia who had to suffer under the murderous Japanese on their own soil. At least for Americans, it was an ocean away, so a bit less visceral.

Meanwhile the hand wringing will continue, the CIA vilified, a call for heads to roll (figuratively, not Islamic style) and the whole time this is going on, people are being tortured to death in the dungeons of Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran.

What a world.

I would call a cop.

Me thinks you wouldn't and are saying this to just look good. If it were my family and I had the person who knew where they were you bet your life that man wouldn't see any police but I would find my family.

Imagine if every country had their methods of interrogation scrutinized to the level of the U.S, post 9/11. Two wrongs don't make a right, but suppose the information obtained from the interrogation prevented another attack. An attack that might have claimed someone you love. Imagination is not really required. Count how many more US soldiers have died, or just how many people had their heads sawed off, in the reaction to the US methods of interrogation employed at Abu Ghraib.

There are some people who credit those photos with costing the US victory in Iraq.

I disagree, the occupation was a disaster from day one, but the cost of employing torture at Abu Ghraib was very high. Has any of the info gained from any other US torturing made up for even that - let alone the widespread effects of the other tortures, the eventual price to be paid for establishing torture agencies as a part of the US government, etc.?

According to the PM in Iraq, we defeated alQaeda in Baghdad:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080215182516.1kw853y4&show_article=1

Me thinks you wouldn't and are saying this to just look good. If it were my family and I had the person who knew where they were you bet your life that man wouldn't see any police but I would find my family.
Can you name a case where this happened, where the family had a person who knew where their kid was and had to option of torturing them?

Pretty rare isn't it?
And it is very rare that you can actually torture someone, get information and save people directly, though this is the scenario that pro-torture people always dish out. And they always assume that the negative results of the torture are simply that that individual bad person suffers pain, when in fact all sorts of 'side effects' happen and many of them come back and smack innocent people.

Interesting.

Why do you say sympathy is automatic but empathy is learned?

I think this is absolutely incorrect. Empathy is often innate. You certainly do not have to teach mothers to feel empathy for their children the second they see them. And I can remember as a child feeling empathy - and by this I mean feeling the exact feelings another child who was suffering felt. They cried, I cried.

The people I am close to got trained out of empathy and over time have challenged this training.

To assume that you have to learn empathy is, I believe, confusing thoughts with feelings. You learn what you are supposed to feel.

coberst .....

If your family was being held hostage and one of the kidnappers was found but wouldn't tell you where your family was, what would you do?

Depends if the family member was being held in Abu Ghraib or Gitmo or some unknown secret prison in some foreign country.

Not much would be my estimation.

It appears to me that few people have ever been taught anything about empathy. Empathy is an effort of the imagination to walk in the shoes of another. I suspect that anyone who understand the meaning of empathy and has been able to walk in the shoes of another could not torture that individual.

Take anyone who you know well and truly despise and imagine torturing that individual. I do not think any normal person could do such a thing.

I think that one of the reasons that we humans are on the path to self destruction is partially due to the fact that our culture has never embraced the understanding of empathy.

You know half the time the information they get probably isn't even useful, they were just doing it to look busy!

Show me where any real info came out of someone using this method instead of drugging them?!

Empathy is useless when dealing with demonic terrorists. We KNOW what they are: vile POS who want to kill/destroy.

Empathy is useless when dealing with demonic terrorists. We KNOW what they are: vile POS who want to kill/destroy.


Wrong, we use empathy to understand. Understanding our enemy is vital to our defense. Our error in Vietnam and Iraq was because we did not empathesize and thus did not understand them.

Wrong, we use empathy to understand. Understanding our enemy is vital to our defense. Our error in Vietnam and Iraq was because we did not empathesize and thus did not understand them.

We understand them just fine. We know they are demonic. :(

We understand them just fine. We know they are demonic. :(

we have people who understand them YOU are not one of them

We understand them just fine. We know they are demonic. :(

Ignorance is one of the reasons for the our failure in Vietnam and Iraq. We failed at empathy and thus did not understand the enemy. Understanding the enemy is very important.

coberst

Did you ever think that maybe America (as a sociaty) is incapable of empathy? Its like a massive sociopath unable to understand its own citizans and understand anyone else. Look at all the school shootings, the responce to terriousm, the fact that you are the only industrlised country with no universal health care, as far as i know you also have the lowest min wage, the least protection for workers and limited social secruities as well. Not to mention APALING education

Asguard

I think that all humans have the ability to understand. Our culture has a great bias against intellectual activity beyond that which will earn a buck. The problem in our society is that adults put their intellect in the attic with their year book when their formal education is over.

coberst Did you ever think that maybe America (as a sociaty) is incapable of empathy? Its like a massive sociopath unable to understand its own citizans and understand anyone else. Look at all the school shootings, the responce to terriousm, the fact that you are the only industrlised country with no universal health care, as far as i know you also have the lowest min wage,the least protection for workers and limited social secruities as well. Not to mention APALING education

We are perfectly capable of empathizing. How else could you explain our donating millions to the victims of the tsunami? We are tired of being suckers, though. Suckers for sob stories of lazy people and people who will not take personal responsibility. :mad: Half of us (Republicans) are fed up with the other half of the country (liberals) who will not stay out of jails, welfare offices, food stamp places, entitlement sources, criminal activity, and trouble-making.

The school shootings were done by liberal morons who were off their meds and wanted attention. We have already discussed the other reasons they do such horrendous things.:(

Our response to terrorism was perfect. We are fighting the war on terror, we got Saddam (the world's biggest terrorist), we are searching for binLaden, we captured/killed several top alQaeda monsters, and we spend billions in surveillance to prevent more 911 attacks. Thank God we have W as our POTUS. Kerry would be cowering in the corner...

The majority of us do not want socialized medicine. We see how bad it is.

We don't have the lowest minimum wage. There are plenty of countries with lower rates. China's is about a dollar an hour. We don't want to raise it anyway. The only people working those jobs are criminal aliens. We have "protection" for workers in the form of unions who extort businesses.

And as far as "APALING education", I have no freakin clue what that is. :confused:

Empathy is useless when dealing with demonic terrorists. We KNOW what they are: vile POS who want to kill/destroy.

If america was not in the middle east you would not have a problem with terrorist's, so you have brought it on yourselves.
Perhaps you should let israel carry out it's enforced exodus of indigenous palestinians on their own???
People are not born terrorists but when your family, friends and relatives are killed and oppressed by western invaders stealing your countries resources, you are left with no choice but to make your peoples suffering known by any means necessary.
I'm not condoning terrorism, terrorism is the result NOT THE CAUSE and you must deal with the problem you have caused

Ignorance is one of the reasons for the our failure in Vietnam and Iraq. We failed at empathy and thus did not understand the enemy. Understanding the enemy is very important.

you should not have been there in the first place that was the failure.
In a war both sides are the enemy.

If america was not in the middle east you would not have a problem with terrorist's, so you have brought it on yourselves.
Perhaps you should let israel carry out it's enforced exodus of indigenous palestinians on their own???
People are not born terrorists but when your family, friends and relatives are killed and oppressed by western invaders stealing your countries resources, you are left with no choice but to make your peoples suffering known by any means necessary.
I'm not condoning terrorism, terrorism is the result NOT THE CAUSE and you must deal with the problem you have caused

Do you know how freaking retarded that is? We're in the ME because we're fighting the war on terror. If the muslims would behave and stop committing terror attacks, we would not be there fighting them. THEY started this. WE will finish it.:mad:
People are not born terrorists. They are trained by the scum of the earth to destroy/kill innocent people.:mad:
We didn't steal anything from anyone. We're trying to bring democracy but the vile terrorists want no part of it. :(

If america was not in the middle east you would not have a problem with terrorist's, so you have brought it on yourselves.
Perhaps you should let israel carry out it's enforced exodus of indigenous palestinians on their own???
People are not born terrorists but when your family, friends and relatives are killed and oppressed by western invaders stealing your countries resources, you are left with no choice but to make your peoples suffering known by any means necessary.
I'm not condoning terrorism, terrorism is the result NOT THE CAUSE and you must deal with the problem you have caused
Totally agree. The U.S. should have known better when they carved up the old Ottoman Empire, just like they should have known better when they created Pakistan. Good post.!

Do you know how freaking retarded that is? We're in the ME because we're fighting the war on terror. If the muslims would behave and stop committing terror attacks, we would not be there fighting them. THEY started this. WE will finish it.:mad:
People are not born terrorists. They are trained by the scum of the earth to destroy/kill innocent people.:mad:
We didn't steal anything from anyone. We're trying to bring democracy but the vile terrorists want no part of it. :(

Were there terrorists attacks before us invaded the middle east......NO!
Did america give money, arms and equipment to the Taliban to oust the muudahadgiem(don't know if its spelt right).......YES!
IF the palestinians are using terrorist acts because attrocities are commited against them by the isrealies is it anything to do with the us.......NO!
were there WMD'S............NO!
Are the IRAQI'S better off with the us in control..................NO!
You started this with lies told to the world to rally it to your side, without proof the world said no, you went ahead any way??
you started this with a hidden agenda (saudia arabia,and jordan in the 70's), lybia, in the 80's,veitnam 60's. like veitnam the terrorist's will finish this.
Terrorist's are trained because you are persecuting the people of the middle east apart from israel,saudi arabia. man does not lie down and die it survives by any means necessary.
They started this we will finish this is an unintelligent childish statement.
oh yes and you didn't steal anything from anyone????????
I forgot you are charging iraq for rebuilding it, by taking millions of gallons of oil????? during the build up oil prices on oil sold to america doubled, now oil use as in oil from us soil has gone down (because you get it for nothing)
America does not fool anyone apart from media-brainwashed americans.
the country that segregated blacks till the 60's,wiped out the indians,dropped atom bombs on japan during the second day of peace talks,refused to sign the kyoto agreement has no foundations to preach democracy to anyone and it is the people that want no part of american democracy because you don't listen they become terrorist's so you can heaq their voice.
What goes around, comes around.
BEHOLD THE AGE OF AMERICA,PROCLAIM THE RISE OF THIS NEO-SAVAGE EMPIRE AS THE DOWNFALL OF THIS ERA

Were there terrorists attacks before us invaded the middle east......NO!...

Terrorists kidnapped/held hostage Americans for 444 days in our embassy in Iran in '79. That was the recent start. I know it goes way back to 1683 when Islam seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe. We are in a new phase of a very old war.:( We will finish it no matter how you spin it. We will destroy the terrorists. We will bring peace. Thank God W is president. He's doing a great job of this. Too bad the demonic terrorists won't stop their vile behavior and let people live in peace. :(

. We are in a new phase of a very old war. We will finish it no matter how you spin it. We will destroy the terrorists. We will bring peace. Thank God W is president. He's doing a great job of this.

That is why, you are the agressors.
And maybe i'm wrong so give me 2 accounts of america bringing peace anywhere that will offset the previous attrocities. you are a young country barely half a millenia old in those 500 years you have caused more attrocities than the middle east combined.
You thank God that dikhead bush is president, GOD IS THE KING OF MAN, not idiots, they thanked god during the inquisition because they were doing a great job.
BEHOLD THE ENEMY OF THE WORLD.
BEHOLD THE RISE OF THE MODERN SAVAGES.
COME FORTH MY FELLOW MAN,LET US BE BRAVE AGAINST THIS TYRRANY
IN THE GUISE OF DEMOCRACY.
AS A NEW WORLD WE WILL CRUSH THIS RISING OF IGNORANCE ON OUR PLANET.
word of advice don't believe what they put in the papers.:runaway::runaway::runaway:

Did you ever think that maybe America (as a sociaty) is incapable of empathy?We do have a frontier-era attitude that everyone has to make it on his own. Nonetheless that's only one component of our national character. Americans are one of the most generous people on earth. We fall all over each other trying to help the people of the Third World. We just can't understand why they don't do what we did and rise up and overthrow their tyrannical governments.Its like a massive sociopath unable to understand its own citizans and understand anyone else. Look at all the school shootings, the responce to terriousm, the fact that you are the only industrlised country with no universal health care. . . . Because of our history of being suspicious of tyrannical governments, many of us are reluctant to increase the power of government beyond the too-big-for-its-britches level that it has already achieved. We simply do not want to live in a "nanny state" where Big Brother takes care of everything, because that invariably leads to reduced freedom. We're willing to take the risks that come with freedom. People who are not should not live here., as far as i know you also have the lowest min wage, the least protection for workers and limited social secruities as well. Not to mention APALING educationAzzy, I avoid commenting on your "appalling" spelling, but please dude, you're forcing me to point out that you're the last person in Australia who should be setting yourself up as the poster child for its educational system! Please climb down off of your high horse. Or get a Mac, OS/X spell-checks everything whether you want it or not. :) It red-lined about twenty words in the short portion of your post I quoted.Do you know how freaking retarded that is? We're in the ME because we're fighting the war on terror. If the muslims would behave and stop committing terror attacks, we would not be there fighting them. THEY started this. WE will finish it. People are not born terrorists. They are trained by the scum of the earth to destroy/kill innocent people. We didn't steal anything from anyone. We're trying to bring democracy but the vile terrorists want no part of it.That's more than a little simplistic, Sandy. You claim to have a university education. Surely you're aware of the fact that the USA and the USSR used the Middle East as their own private chessboard throughout the Cold War. WE kept the Shah in power so that Iran would not get cozier with the Soviets. WE created the Taliban because they fought against the Afghan factions that were allied with the Russians and would have turned Afghanistan into a Soviet satellite country. WE supported Saddam Hussein because he was fighting a war against Iran. Of course the Russians were doing the same thing from their side. The people of the Middle East have good reason to think that the Americans and Russians treated them like crap and made their countries the way they are today, and good reason to dislike us intensely.

Punishing the Iraqis for something the Saudis did (9/11) just makes us look not only evil, but stupid. Many hard-line Muslims consider Saudi Arabia to be a pawn of the US, and the fact that we bombed Kabul and Baghdad instead of Riyadh only reinforces that conviction. Bin Laden is a member by marriage of the Saudi royal family. If we had told King Abdullah that he had 24 hours to deliver Osama's head to us or we would start bombing the crap out of his country, overthrowing its despotic ruler, and occupying it so we could liberate its women, you can bet that a FedEx truck with Osama's gift-wrapped head would have shown up at the White House with about eighteen hours to spare. Instead, our treasonous president made a special exception to the no-fly rule on 9/11 and permitted a planeload of Saudis to leave the country. For all we know, Osama could have been on that plane. Oh yeah, and Saudi pilots won't fly unless we remove all female personnel from our control towers!Totally agree. The U.S. should have known better when they carved up the old Ottoman Empire, just like they should have known better when they created Pakistan. Good post.!Sandy may not realize that you're making a joke. It was the Brits who carved up the Ottoman Empire when it collapsed just about the same time WWI ended. It was the Brits who then decided to hand Palestine (part of the Ottoman Empire) over to the Jewish refugees at the end of WWII, since as far as they were concerned nobody important was living there. It was virtually everybody else in Europe who thought that was a splendid idea, because as ashamed as they were for having made antisemitism their national sport for a thousand years, and as much as they wanted to do something nice for the Jews, they didn't want to go so far as to invite them back to their home cities in Europe, which is in fact where 99.99% of them would rather have gone. (Zionism was a radical fringe movement with little popular support.) It was also the Brits who created "nations" like Iraq and Nigeria during their colonial era, by cobbling together fragments of ethnic groups who had nothing in common but mutual hatred, drawing some pretty lines on a map, and saying, "Here, this is your home so start getting along."

As for how Pakistan came to be, we should probably wait for Sam to explain it. I'm not entirely sure we can blame the West for that particular disaster, although we have a lot to do with the fact that a despot like Musharraf is in charge of it.

Fraggle Rocker and anyone else who took that as a personal atack on the PEOPLE of america i was refering to the SOCIATY of american not her people. Your coperations, your goverment all act in the same way a sociopath would, ie with very little empathy to anyone. I wont go through the list again but it would be nice if the political debate went BEHIND an issue to WHY things happen rather than striking out as soon as the WHO has been established

Oh and Fraggle Rocker i find it HIGHLY amusing that you assume LITERACY and more importantly SPELLING is the only thing of value. Would you like a link to one of my uni assignments that recived a HD? Im sure it would be of GREAT comfort to a pt if i could TREAT a miocardial infaction rather than just SPELL IT!!!!!!!!

Just use spellcheck. It's easy and it makes you look smarter if you can't spell. :)

He is not native English speaking.

Doesn't matter. You want to post/mod a board, learn English or use spell check.:)

Fraggle, for the last time, the U.S. did not "create" the Taliban. Why do you continue to push that idea? Do I need to buy you a calendar?

1989. 1996. Do some research.

He supports religofascism.

Fraggle Rocker and anyone else who took that as a personal atack on the PEOPLE of america i was refering to the SOCIATY of american not her people. Your coperations, your goverment all act in the same way a sociopath would, ie with very little empathy to anyone.Americans tend to be more reflexively patriotic than many peoples, including yours, from what I've read about it. An Australian politician is reported to have mimed wiping his butt with the Australian flag on TV. In America no one but us unreconstructed hippies would do that and even we wouldn't do it in public. So it's difficult to make a distinction between the country and the people. Just ask Sandy. :)Oh and Fraggle Rocker i find it HIGHLY amusing that you assume LITERACY and more importantly SPELLING is the only thing of value.I don't think it's the only thing of value, but it's the first thing people have to evaluate you on an internet board, and you make a very bad impression. Clearly I'm not the only member who feels this way. One person actually thinks you're not an anglophone, unless he's joking. It is very inconsiderate to expect people to wade through an entire post where almost every word with more than six letters is misspelled. I too am curious why you don't use a spell-checker. First impressions count, and the first impression you make is not that of a highly educated person.Would you like a link to one of my uni assignments that recived a HD? Im sure it would be of GREAT comfort to a pt if i could TREAT a miocardial infaction rather than just SPELL IT!!!!!!!!I'm sorry if I insulted you. You and I have discussed this before and I've never mentioned it again, despite the fact that it really grates on me. But you did insult my country and fair is fair. :)Fraggle, for the last time, the U.S. did not "create" the Taliban. Why do you continue to push that idea? Do I need to buy you a calendar?1989. 1996. Do some research.I have. President Carter took the advice of a poorly chosen advisor (I can't remember which one; Brzezinksi seems too bright today to have been so stupid then), and thought that the way to keep the Soviets from making too much headway in the Middle East was to play their own game and support insurgents in Afghanistan that were "on our side." The Soviet faction became what in this century was known as the Northern Alliance. The faction that was funded and advised by the C.I.A. did not congeal into a united front, but through a few strokes of good luck one particular group got the notice of the Americans and received disproportionate support. After a little more infighting and merging, that group went on to become the Taliban. We created our own monster.

Fraggle Rocker my spelling is my problem, the fact that your country is one huge sociopath is EVERYONES problem

Fraggle Rocker my spelling is my problem, the fact that your country is one huge sociopath is EVERYONES problem

AMERICA is everyone's problem SOCIOPATH'S are dangerous with no feelings towards it s victims.
as a common man, a normalish person, what can i do when my relatives are killed by this sociopath I fight back the only way I can, it may be called terrorism but to others its survival.

back to torture, a few years ago british newspaper printed pictures of british soldiers urinating,torturing iraqi prisoners they were found to be fake and the editor was sacked. A short while later london was bombed why PIERS MORGAN( THE EDITOR) did not face charges of causing death by incitement of hatred, or any other charges is beyond me.

Fraggle Rocker my spelling is my problem, the fact that your country is one huge sociopath is EVERYONES problem

My country is not "one huge sociopath"!:mad: WTF? Yes we have some liberal loons but as a country are, for the most part, happy/healthy, and doing just fine, thank you.
I think you've been reading too much liberal propaganda. They are the most miserable citizens. The Republicans and Christians are pretty happy campers right now. :)

Not to mention APALING education

This would be funny, if it were funny.

This would be funny, if it were funny.

The irony tag took one look at that sentence, and asploded.

:D :roflmao: :D

My country is not "one huge sociopath"! WTF? Yes we have some liberal loons but as a country are, for the most part, happy/healthy, and doing just fine, thank you.


Healthy? don't you mean that a large percentage of the US suffers from obeseity. While the countries with national debt owed to the US are malnourished,diseased and starving.
Happy? US companies make tens of millions of dollars off the back of child slavery.
And are doing just fine thank you........................don't sociopaths suffer from denial about what they do ?

no in general they just dont care which maybe the ONLY thing that is saving the US from exactly this kind of pathology, its apathy not self delusion that is a signal of dissasotive personality disorder

no in general they just dont care which maybe the ONLY thing that is saving the US from exactly this kind of pathology, its apathy not self delusion that is a signal of dissasotive personality disorder

Do you think that the majority of US citizens have been mis-informed or manipulated by the media t.v,newspapers,radio,advertising boards in to a mindset that they think what the government is doing in the name of US citizens is moralisticaly right.
I'm sure someone mentioned reagen earlier, yeah great cowboy, wicked actor but when did he study politics??????
When the US has a leader who works for the people and does what a leader should do what does the US do....................
Shoot them.............
JFK
MALCOM X
MARTIN LUTHER KING
ABE LINCOLN.

to be honest i cant see how they could be, maybe its like stockholms syndrome. There are alot of positions in the US i cant understand but the one that i find personally the most baffling is the position on universal health care. I have seen some of the ad's about the evils of "socilised med" and i found them to be as big a joke as the Howard goverment's work choices advertisements. If they were run here i couldnt see a) most people conecting universal health care to the frase socialised med and b)taking them seriously.

I have to agree that from a country that never assainates her leaders (well unless you count the shark that killed Harold Holt), the fact that you kill the only political figures who generally seem to want to improve your country is amazing

Oh and you missed one off your list, Bobby Kenerdy

I dont know if its your presidental system of limiting terms but it seems like people who generally want to serve for the good of all are diswaded from running and you only seem to get people who do it for there own gain after they leave the office.

As much as i dislike Howard i have no doubt that he was doing what he thought was in the best intrests of the country rather than in his OWN best intrests because he could have earned ALOT more in the private sector, so could Costello (the former Treasurer)

I see alot wrong with the US coming right back to your political system. Im sure that the people are great as inderviduals but you seem to have the most self serving public servents in the world. With that in mind its no wonder no one seems to trust them

No sort of torture is moral...water is the most powerful force on the surface of the earth and the Chinese have harnested that dastardly power in mere drops.

Running water down the nose of a terrorist POS who just blew up innocent civilians is nothing compared to what he deserves. :mad:

Do you think that the majority of US citizens have been mis-informed or manipulated by the media t.v,newspapers,radio,advertising boards in to a mindset that they think what the government is doing in the name of US citizens is moralisticaly right.Newspapers have their biases but they still (barely) represent a cross section of opinions so I don't think newspapers are at fault. I place the blame on the proliferation of The News For People Who Can't Read: television. TV newscasts of necessity condense their reports and leave out details that could stir up individual thinking. But worse, because they are oral they are laden with emotion and tell their viewers how to feel about current events. I believe that when TV news achieved prominence over print media, probably in the late 1970s, is when the misinformation and manipulation you refer to began to take over the populace,I'm sure someone mentioned Reagan earlier, yeah great cowboy, wicked actor but when did he study politics?Reagan was in fact on the board of directors of the Screen Actors Guild (actor's union) for many years and was the union's president for seven years--very tumultous years that were marked by the Taft-Hartley Act, the Hollywood blacklist scandal, and the House Un-American Activities Committee. The denizens of Hollywood are a rowdy, opinionated lot. Reagan was certainly well-versed in politics and he was noted for his talent for compromise.

I don't mean to imply that I was a fan of his, but we've had worse presidents. He was both aware enough and humble enough to surround himself with people he felt were good advisors, and to take their advice.

Running water down the nose of a terrorist POS who just blew up innocent civilians is nothing compared to what he deserves. :mad:

I'm sorry...I can not and will not subribed to that point of view....Either try them or release them...Justice is not fufilled in directed violence.

This thread is like so many others in that it's filled with very little substance, and a lot of bullshit, but it stands out to me for one reason: The idea of the U.S. as something that can be understood from the outside looking in, with no firsthand knowledge.

The posters sharing their brilliant hypotheses seek to personify a nation into a term normally reserved for criminal proceedings, and the DSM-IV, have made a breakthrough, with me anyway. More than ever before I realize just how little is known about the U.S., and the people who live, work, play and govern here.

I'm not good with words, so I could never begin to explain the American Experience, but even if I tried, I know some of you would never believe me because you just wouldn't believe that it could really be as different in practice as from the way you've imagined it to be.

It's not my place to argue, because I was born in the U.S., and it's the way I know, but I know it's nothing like it's purported to be, and if living wherever you live makes you so bitter and fearful that you view the U.S. as the big bad wolf, well then it's best that you stay there, and I'll stay here, and continue being happy while you continue to live in fear.

Running water down the nose of a terrorist POS who just blew up innocent civilians is nothing compared to what he deserves. :mad:

He didn't just do it on a whim, to resort to terrorism there has to be something drasticaly wrong somewhere, terrorism is a result, why not listen to why they are doing it to put an end to it "two wrongs don't make a right"

,Reagan was in fact on the board of directors of the Screen Actors Guild (actor's union) for many years and was the union's president for seven years--very tumultous years that were marked by the Taft-Hartley Act, the Hollywood blacklist scandal, and the House Un-American Activities Committee. The denizens of Hollywood are a rowdy, opinionated lot. Reagan was certainly well-versed in politics and he was noted for his talent for compromise.

I don't mean to imply that I was a fan of his, but we've had worse presidents. He was both aware enough and humble enough to surround himself with people he felt were good advisors, and to take their advice.

Didn't know that. And am surprised.

He didn't just do it on a whim, to resort to terrorism there has to be something drasticaly wrong somewhere, terrorism is a result, why not listen to why they are doing it to put an end to it "two wrongs don't make a right"

Well, they're doing it because they think their Koran tells them to convert/kill. So what do you suggest? We all convert to Islam or just let them keep on killing? :confused:

It's not my place to argue, because I was born in the U.S., and it's the way I know, but I know it's nothing like it's purported to be, and if living wherever you live makes you so bitter and fearful that you view the U.S. as the big bad wolf, well then it's best that you stay there, and I'll stay here, and continue being happy while you continue to live in fear.

Its not about being fearful of the US citizens, or the place itself. its the policies,capitalstic ecconomic morals and the fact that through media routes have penetrated nearly every country in the world, oppressing 3rd world countries,supporting armed conflicts with hope of political gain, in britain now 95% of cinema releases are forgein(american),70% childrens programmes are forgein(american),when i was young and in germany (i'm 34) the kids tv was german, when i came to england late 70's english kids tv was english.
There will be a civil war in Great Britain in the next 20 or so years in my opinion and it will be between the americanized british on the side of the government/america against the european british on the side of europe.

1992 we had A glimmer of hope in John Smith of retaining our european heritage what we fought two world wars for but suddenly he died of a heart attack in may 1992 (hhhmmmmm:scratchin:) then came tony blair who noboddy had heard of and suddenly we are not just helping kuait we are invading the middle east???????????
Asians came into this country on mass in the 50's and 60's and after a turbulent and racist 70's early 80's things settled down.where i grew up there was a sense of multi-cultural community, kids hung round in mixed groups, we took on traits of each others cultures. I went back in around 2000 and you would have thought we had never existed. divided back to the social 70's.
You have to remember you never left after the second world war????
You are forgeiners??????
The people of this country did not want involvement in this war,it has divided us from our neighbours.
I'm happy that you like living in the US, but it is what your government does in the name of the US which is moraly wrong should be your concern, because it is on those merits how you will be percieved from the outside, and if there is something wrong with my perception, what is it between you and me that could cause this altered perceptional state.

Most of us don't care what anyone thinks of us. Our goal is staying alive during our war on terror and getting the criminal parasite aliens out of here.

Pouring water down the nose of a terrorist is NOTHING compared to what he deserves. :(

Well, they're doing it because they think their Koran tells them to convert/kill. So what do you suggest? We all convert to Islam or just let them keep on killing? :confused:

No not at all, but in their mindset it's the crusades all over again, take into account americas involvment in the middle east since probably isreal was given back, Muslims have had problems since then.

Why not just say enough is enough if you don't want the terrorism leave the middle east?????

What do you gain from staying there apart from oil???????

Let Isreal do its bullying on its own

..Why not just say enough is enough if you don't want the terrorism leave the middle east?????

What do you gain from staying there apart from oil???????

Let Isreal do its bullying on its own

Our leaving the ME will not stop the terrorism. You have muslims using the Koran to defend their killing/destruction. We're trying to bring peace/ democracy to Iraq. Again, it's the demonic terrorists screwing everything up. How about putting the responsibility/blame where it lies? With the terrorists where it belongs.:(
If we were there for oil we wouldn't be paying up to $4.95/gallon. :rolleyes:

Israel is our friend. We support her. We always will. (Unless a democrat is elected POTUS. Then he/she will let the muslims take over the Jewish people/ land and all hell will break loose there too.) :(

in britain now 95% of cinema releases are forgein(american),70% childrens programmes are forgein(american),when i was young and in germany (i'm 34) the kids tv was german, when i came to england late 70's english kids tv was english.
.

If viewers didn't watch those shows, they would not continue being broadcast. If nobody went to see those movies, it wouldn't continue being screened.

We vote with our checkbooks. No one forces you to watch something you don't want to watch.

If a Chinese restaurant is successful, is that China forcing it's culture on another, or is it because people all over the world like Chinese food, and choose to dine there, while giving no thought to Chinese politics? Having a nice bowl of Lo Mein does not equal condoning China's despicable human rights record. Not for a sane individual anyway.

If viewers didn't watch those shows, they would not continue being broadcast. If nobody went to see those movies, it wouldn't continue being screened.

ay.

the english film studios were closed down in the 70's, and don't forget its aimed at children and they have no true realisation or concept of being occupied by a forgein invader. so have no protection against capitalist propaganda or detruction of their heritage and culture.

Our leaving the ME will not stop the terrorism. You have muslims using the Koran to defend their killing/destruction. We're trying to bring peace/ democracy to Iraq. Again, it's the demonic terrorists screwing everything up. How about putting the responsibility/blame where it lies? With the terrorists where it belongs.:(
If we were there for oil we wouldn't be paying up to $4.95/gallon. :rolleyes:

Israel is our friend. We support her. We always will. (Unless a democrat is elected POTUS. Then he/she will let the muslims take over the Jewish people/ land and all hell will break loose there too.) :(

I believe in Karma, not God, not Allah, not Yahweh and fear for that peaceful equillibrium of this planet is my only concern, so you will get what you deserve or reap what you sow, however you want to look at it

and arn't you using terrorism as an excuse for killing and destruction??????
boths sides are like children with no comprehension of whats outside the box and effects of what they do has on the rest of the world

I believe in Karma, not God, not Allah, not Yahweh and fear for that peaceful equillibrium of this planet is my only concern, so you will get what you deserve or reap what you sow, however you want to look at it

and arn't you using terrorism as an excuse for killing and destruction??????
boths sides are like children with no comprehension of whats outside the box and effects of what they do has on the rest of the world

"Karma" is from the Biblical law of sowing and reaping. We aren't killing and destroying anyone. We are in Iraq and Afghanistan to bring peace/democracy. The demonic muslim terrorists want nothing to do with it.:(

the english film studios were closed down in the 70's, and don't forget its aimed at children and they have no true realisation or concept of being occupied by a forgein invader. so have no protection against capitalist propaganda or detruction of their heritage and culture.

So you consider the Tele-Tubbies foreign invaders of the U.S.?

I think we might be stumbling awkwardly into some sort of understanding of one another; that is to say, you are apparently completely delusional, and batshiat crazy, and all this time I thought I was having a back and forth with someone on the outside of the asylum.;)

Tell me this, if the English studios were "closed down" in the 70's, who has been making all of those British films that keep winning Oscars?

So you consider the Tele-Tubbies foreign invaders of the U.S.?
But what if all you had was British kids tv ,cinema you wouldn't be so lighthearted.

Tell me this, if the English studios were "closed down" in the 70's, who has been making all of those British films that keep winning Oscars?

90% of the films used to be british, in britain now its not even 10%?????
And because a few fims have been made, most are still american production
As too the middle bit perhaps my perception of US Is not wrong, And if you find humour in brainwashing children, then no wonder your country is being terrorised it won't be long before you are this centuries nazi-germany and the rest of the world will have to do what was done to them. the french resistence were terrorists who are still hailed as hero's, maybe the muslim terrorist's will be hailed the same.
the people of germany did not know what there countries leaders were getting up to and neither do you

"Karma" is from the Biblical law of sowing and reaping. We aren't killing and destroying anyone. We are in Iraq and Afghanistan to bring peace/democracy. The demonic muslim terrorists want nothing to do with it.:(

you are blind living in a bubble, its not your fault .
you messed up afghan in the 70's, 80's and as they have had enough you are now there to bring peace..........................madness

you are blind living in a bubble, its not your fault .you messed up afghan in the 70's, 80's and as they have had enough you are now there to bring peace..........................madness

Nope. Eyes wide open, smart, aware, and sick of pc bs.:D

I did nothing to Afghanistan. We are there now trying to bring peace. The demonic muslim terrorists don't like that idea. :(

But what if all you had was British kids tv ,cinema you wouldn't be so lighthearted.

If what you are describing had even a shred of truth, then maybe I could see your point. Maybe you don't realize this, but I also get BBC. Either something is wrong with your television, or something is wrong with you.

Nope. Eyes wide open, smart, aware, and sick of pc bs.:D

I did nothing to Afghanistan. We are there now trying to bring peace. The demonic muslim terrorists don't like that idea. :(

I'm going to have to agree to dis-agree with you.
When i say you in afghanistan I meant as in the united states who you are defending I apologise for any remarks that you may have taken personaly.

check your countries involement sinve the begining and you may see you are tring to bring peace to the disruption that you have caused ref. russia and cold war etc:)

If what you are describing had even a shred of truth, then maybe I could see your point. Maybe you don't realize this, but I also get BBC. Either something is wrong with your television, or something is wrong with you.

the BBC also control the radio stations throughout britain, it also has major shares and control in a number of national newspapers,then you go into governmental control in the BBC (big brother concept). because you get a tv station were not all east enders.
capitalisaton over a nations psyche. Maybe you don't relise that, how could you?:bugeye:

the BBC also control the radio stations throughout britain, it also has major shares and control in a number of national newspapers,then you go into governmental control in the BBC (big brother concept). because you get a tv station were not all east enders.
capitalisaton over a nations psyche. Maybe you don't relise that, how could you?:bugeye:

So if the government controls the BBC, shouldn't you blame the government for what's being broadcast? You realize, if nobody watches the show, and the ratings suck, and the sponsors pull their advertisements, the show will most likely be canceled, right?

What am I missing here? You're blaming television for airing what is popular?

So if the government controls the BBC, shouldn't you blame the government for what's being broadcast? You realize, if nobody watches the show, and the ratings suck, and the sponsors pull their advertisements, the show will most likely be canceled, right?

What am I missing here? You're blaming television for airing what is popular?

the BBC has many channels and there not all called BBC.
we are going off on a tangent read the last post's were not talking about t.v. quality.
When you are talking about the capitalisation of a nation's Psyche,control is what its all about (britain has 20-25% of the worlds cctv cameras) so the ratings are meaningless and just diversionary.
you need a tv lisence which you have to pay even if you do not get the BBC???
the BBC has no sponsers,advertisements? if you had the BBC you would know that???????

the BBC has many channels and there not all called BBC.
we are going off on a tangent read the last post's were not talking about t.v. quality.
When you are talking about the capitalisation of a nation's Psyche,control is what its all about (britain has 20-25% of the worlds cctv cameras) so the ratings are meaningless and just diversionary.
you need a tv lisence which you have to pay even if you do not get the BBC???
the BBC has no sponsers,advertisements? if you had the BBC you would know that???????

I have one BBC channel, and it does have sponsors and ads. But I don't see what that has to do with Water Torture...

I have one BBC channel, and it does have sponsors and ads. But I don't see what that has to do with Water Torture...

you are right we are on a tangent, I was saying about listening to why these terrorist's are attacking US citizen's, as opposed to torture any torture,
you find the cause of the problem you can solve it.

to follow the step's we got here read back:soapbox:

What is the problem? Dont watch T.V. then.

I did nothing to Afghanistan.Sandy, you really need to bone up on your 20th century history before you start spouting off like this. As I've mentioned before, the majority of what you write on SciForums is NOT consistent with your assertion that you studied in a U.S. university. There are far too many huge gaps in your knowledge for you to represent yourself to our international membership as an educated and informed American. When members like Asguard throw insults at our educational system, it's people like you who give him reason to do so. Please stop making foreigners think that our universities suck. It's not fair to the country you claim to love so much.

Okay?

The Russians and Americans treated Afghanistan like their own private laboratory in the 1970s, as they did with the entire Middle East throughout the Cold War, which ran from the end of WWII until Perestroika. Afghan culture, society and government were largely shaped by the machinations of the CIA and their Soviet counterparts. We even turned a blind eye to their opium production so long as the profits were funneled into pro-American factions rather than pro-Russian.

The Russians began to provide money and advisors to build up a coalition of ragtag militias who wanted to bring communism to Afghanistan. President Carter, having been given some woefully poor advice by his cabinet, believed that the solution to this was to find some even more disreputable rural fighters and lure them to our side by giving them money and advice. They fought each other for years. As the Cold War wound down, the Russian-supported coalition held together and became the insurgency known as the Northern Alliance. The American-supported ragamuffins weren't so well organized, but one particular group had managed to do us a few favors and were favored in return, resulting in their gaining substantial power over the country. This group became known as the Taliban.

So what's going on today in Afghanistan has EVERYTHING to do with American interference. What goes around comes around. We are there now trying to bring peace. The demonic muslim terrorists don't like that idea.We are there for the sole purpose of attempting to suppress the growth of anti-American terrorism, in a poorly governed country with lots of hiding places. Nobody on our side gives a damn about the Afghanis and they never did. And the only reason this is happening is that our treasonous president REFUSES to go after the real culprits in the Middle East: Saudi Arabia. The Saudis provide most of the money that funds anti-American terrorists, the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi citizens, and Osama is a member by marriage of the House of Saud. Yet your favorite retard, George Bush, refuses to do anything except buy their goddamn petroleum so the government won't have to start encouraging telecommuting and his pals in the energy industry can get richer.

Feeling exasperated Fraggle?

Don't worry, we foreigners are reasonably adept at sorting the sheep from the goats and although I have wondered long and hard if Sandy is actually a very intelligent poster who has weaved an intricate parody of the very caricature of Sandy, the truth is all too clear, truth is stranger than fiction and yes, anybody who has been around sci for more than 5 minutes takes Sandy's post and attitude with a huge grain of salt.

Yes, She's all American but doesn't represent the thinking variety.

Feeling exasperated Fraggle? Yes, She's all American but doesn't represent the thinking variety.I suppose. But Sandy is unfortunately not the only American who doesn't understand how much responsibility we have for the Taliban. I've had people call me ignorant and uninformed for mentioning it. But considering how Sandy feels about left-liberal American politicians, it's ironic that she isn't trumpeting Jimmy Carter's role in the CIA's assignment to, in effect, create a group exactly like the Taliban. I wish I could track down the name of the advisor who told him to do that, it's someone rather famous.

The Russians and Americans treated Afghanistan like their own private laboratory in the 1970s, as they did with the entire Middle East throughout the Cold War, which ran from the end of WWII until Perestroika. Afghan culture, society and government were largely shaped by the machinations of the CIA and their Soviet counterparts. We even turned a blind eye to their opium production so long as the profits were funneled into pro-American factions rather than pro-Russian.

The Russians began to provide money and advisors to build up a coalition of ragtag militias who wanted to bring communism to Afghanistan. President Carter, having been given some woefully poor advice by his cabinet, believed that the solution to this was to find some even more disreputable rural fighters and lure them to our side by giving them money and advice. They fought each other for years. As the Cold War wound down, the Russian-supported coalition held together and became the insurgency known as the Northern Alliance. The American-supported ragamuffins weren't so well organized, but one particular group had managed to do us a few favors and were favored in return, resulting in their gaining substantial power over the country. This group became known as the Taliban.

So what's going on today in Afghanistan has EVERYTHING to do with American interference. What goes around comes around.We are there for the sole purpose of attempting to suppress the growth of anti-American terrorism, in a poorly governed country with lots of hiding places. Nobody on our side gives a damn about the Afghanis and they never did. And the only reason this is happening is that our treasonous president REFUSES to go after the real culprits in the Middle East: Saudi Arabia. The Saudis provide most of the money that funds anti-American terrorists, the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi citizens, and Osama is a member by marriage of the House of Saud. Yet your favorite retard, George Bush, refuses to do anything except buy their goddamn petroleum so the government won't have to start encouraging telecommuting and his pals in the energy industry can get richer.

An honest american, one who can see, I take my hat off to you for your honesty.:bravo::bravo:

I suppose. But Sandy is unfortunately not the only American who doesn't understand how much responsibility we have for the Taliban. I've had people call me ignorant and uninformed for mentioning it. But considering how Sandy feels about left-liberal American politicians, it's ironic that she isn't trumpeting Jimmy Carter's role in the CIA's assignment to, in effect, create a group exactly like the Taliban. I wish I could track down the name of the advisor who told him to do that, it's someone rather famous.

You've got it wrong. That's why people have called you ignorant.

If you really think you can put the Taliban on the U.S., then I have to assume you don't know much about the roots of the student movement that became the Taliban.

If you want to say that the U.S. sold some weapons that eventually wound up in the hands of the Taliban, fine. You would be correct. But to give the CIA credit for "starting" the Taliban is 1. Giving that incompetent bunch of spooks way too much credit. 2. Completely disregarding the Saudi exportation of Wahhabism to the tribal regions of Pakistan, where the ideas flourished. 3. Disregarding the Pashtun element of the Taliban story, which predates the formation of the U.S.

Just quit oversimplifying something that is extremely complex, and has its genesis in something much larger than the U.S. aims to derail the Soviets. I know your references and ability to put monumental posts on the subject together at a moments notice may dazzle and convince some of the kids on this forum that didn't live through it, but it's intellectually dishonest to keep spouting off "...when the U.S. invented the Taliban...blah, blah, blah...".

We did not invent the Taliban and we did not even invent the splinter group(s) that became the Taliban. But we provided key support at a time when they needed it and we are at least arguably responsible for its ability to develop the power it ultimately wielded.

If you want to say that the U.S. sold some weapons that eventually wound up in the hands of the Taliban, fine. You would be correct. But to give the CIA credit for "starting" the Taliban The US gave training and logistical support and money and weapons - tens of thousands, including sophisticated shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles along with "deniable" truckloads oif AKs - to encourage the fielding of militia under the command of Omar, often called the "founder" of the Taliban, and Rabbani, important founding member of the Taliban, and several others of the 30-odd "students" who became the initial core Taliban.

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia were both US allies with US backing when they put their support behind the Taliban.

The US footprint here is large and deep.

The US seems to have a lot of people who claim that unintended or undesired consequences of US actions are somehow not the fault of the US. That is only true if they are unpredictable and unexpected by knowledgeable people. Bad consequences -similar to actual events - of having an intelligence agency like the CIA foment secret wars and clandestine violent operations and black box corruptions all over the planet were - and are - predictable and expected. That's one reason they had to be secret.

I know it goes way back to 1683 when Islam seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe.

riiiiiiiiiiiight because christians never imposed its beliefs on unwilling people and murdered many non-believers... riiiiight.

Israel is our friend. We support her. We always will. (Unless a democrat is elected POTUS. Then he/she will let the muslims take over the Jewish people/ land and all hell will break loose there too.) :(

You mean like when Clinton let the Muslims take over Israel. No, we can't let that happen again. Those were bad years when Israel was taken over by Muslims. We should have known that a democrat with 8, READ IT, 8 years in office would have the time to turn Israel over to the Muslims. Does it matter to you whether you make any sense or not?

The US gave training and logistical support and money and weapons - tens of thousands, including sophisticated shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles along with "deniable" truckloads oif AKs - to encourage the fielding of militia under the command of Omar, often called the "founder" of the Taliban, and Rabbani, important founding member of the Taliban, and several others of the 30-odd "students" who became the initial core Taliban.

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia were both US allies with US backing when they put their support behind the Taliban.

The US footprint here is large and deep.

The US seems to have a lot of people who claim that unintended or undesired consequences of US actions are somehow not the fault of the US. That is only true if they are unpredictable and unexpected by knowledgeable people. Bad consequences -similar to actual events - of having an intelligence agency like the CIA foment secret wars and clandestine violent operations and black box corruptions all over the planet were - and are - predictable and expected. That's one reason they had to be secret.

Classic example of logical fallacy. For example, if you supported someone prior to their future bad behavior would you be responsible for that behavior? Your using the adam and eve analogy.

Classic example of logical fallacy. For example, if you supported someone prior to their future bad behavior would you be responsible for that behavior? Your using the adam and eve analogy.

yeah, they weren't unbelievably sexist, etc. in those days.

We should not do any soul searching over the fact that we supported and armed the Taliban, Osama Bin Ladin, Noriega, and Saddaam Hussein and then later went to war against countries because of how they were. We have done nothing wrong nor showed poor planning. Nothing about their behavior and beliefs could possibly have led us know. And the fact that we covered up their behavior, well that's just a way of encouraging them to be good boys until that day we decide they are the incarnation of evil. And if it seems like actually they have acted fairly consistantly throughout both our time of infatuation and our time of divorce, well that is merely seeming. You see before when they were bad they were our allies and later when they were bad they were not. You see.

You are quite right. It is all a logical fallacy. There is nothing cynical about who we choose to arm. Nor our motives for arming them.

Our innocence and sorrow about their badness, our shock and dismay, it is all very real.

Why couldn't they have used our weapons and money for niceness.........

Classic example of logical fallacy. For example, if you supported someone prior to their future bad behavior would you be responsible for that behavior? Your using the adam and eve analogy.

You're correct. This is my example of how ice views the world.

iceaura finds himself with some extra money one day, so he decides to send his friend some money for a plane ticket so he/she can come to visit. Unfortunately, the plane crashed, killing his friend. Obviously the death was his fault, and he's devastated with grief. If only he hadn't sent that money, his friend would still be alive. It's the only reasonable conclusion.

You've got it wrong. That's why people have called you ignorant.

If you really think you can put the Taliban on the U.S., then I have to assume you don't know much about the roots of the student movement that became the Taliban.

If you want to say that the U.S. sold some weapons that eventually wound up in the hands of the Taliban, fine. You would be correct. But to give the CIA credit for "starting" the Taliban is 1. Giving that incompetent bunch of spooks way too much credit. 2. Completely disregarding the Saudi exportation of Wahhabism to the tribal regions of Pakistan, where the ideas flourished. 3. Disregarding the Pashtun element of the Taliban story, which predates the formation of the U.S.

Just quit oversimplifying something that is extremely complex, and has its genesis in something much larger than the U.S. aims to derail the Soviets. I know your references and ability to put monumental posts on the subject together at a moments notice may dazzle and convince some of the kids on this forum that didn't live through it, but it's intellectually dishonest to keep spouting off "...when the U.S. invented the Taliban...blah, blah, blah...".

But it's true that you are paying the price now for getting involved where you did not realy belong blah, blah, blah....
And dragging other countries into it blah,
Yet claim innocence Blah, blah
Instead of torturing these fellow human beings (not demons as sandy say's).
have you tried asking them if they realise that you are there to bring peace, because the families of 1 million Iraqi's don't think so, and the 2 million refugee's which fled to Syria don't think so, I live in britain and i don't think so

and if you are there to bring peace how can you bring peace to a situation where you are the cause of war????? without withdrawal???

...But it's true that you are paying the price now for getting involved where you did not realy belong blah, blah, blah....
And dragging other countries into it blah,Yet claim innocence Blah, blah
Instead of torturing these fellow human beings (not demons as sandy say's).
have you tried asking them if they realise that you are there to bring peace, because the families of 1 million Iraqi's don't think so, and the 2 million refugee's which fled to Syria don't think so, I live in britain and i don't think so..and if you are there to bring peace how can you bring peace to a situation where you are the cause of war????? without withdrawal???

You really don't get it. It's good vs. evil. God vs. satan. Christianity vs. radical Islam. Us vs. them. WE did not take hostages in '79. We did not bomb anyone's skyscrapers killing 3,000 of their innocent people. We are not blowing people up all over the world on a daily basis. :mad:

The muslim terrorists ARE demonic. How could you explain it otherwise? They're just misunderstood "freedom-fighters"? F-that! :mad:

They know we're there to bring peace. They don't care and want no part of it. Their Koran tells them to kill/destroy.

We withdraw and we bring the war on terror back here. No thanks. :mad:

You really don't get it. It's good vs. evil. God vs. satan. Christianity vs. radical Islam. Us vs. them.
I THINK YOUR DELUDED OR MAD BY THIS STATEMENT. WHICH EXPLAINS ALOT.it's like a 12 year old's perception
We did not bomb anyone's skyscrapers killing 3,000 of their innocent people. We are not blowing people up all over the world on a daily basis.
Your government did not listen to the people of the middle east so they took matters into their own hands, you obviously have no idea about the cause of your problems and the fact you've had it coming for 30 years.
I hope your proud that innocent people are being killed because your government acts under its own agenda as opossed for the people of the us

The muslim terrorists ARE demonic. How could you explain it otherwise? They're just misunderstood "freedom-fighters"? F-that!
I think their freedom fighters (its what there fighting for) and you hve misunderstood demons, or you maybe John Hagee's sister/mother or daughter

They know we're there to bring peace. They don't care and want no part of it. Their Koran tells them to kill/destroy.
When have you ever read the KU'RAN ?????????? I have a copy and it says nothing about killing and destroying, your confused thats what the christians did in the name of the bible:crazy:
We withdraw and we bring the war on terror back here. No thanks.

Withdraw and if any thing happened the world would be on your side???
stay and the world is against you???????????????????
:spank::blbl:

...Your government did not listen to the people of the middle east so they took matters into their own hands, you obviously have no idea about the cause of your problems and the fact you've had it coming for 30 years.I hope your proud that innocent people are being killed because your government acts under its own agenda as opossed for the people of the us.I think their freedom fighters...When have you ever read the KU'RAN ?????????? I have a copy and it says nothing about killing and destroying...Withdraw and if any thing happened the world would be on your side??? stay and the world is against you?...

Listen to them when? When they took our guys hostage in '79, attacked us 911, or every attack in between? Demonic muslim terrorists are killing people. We're not.
The Koran has 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. :mad:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

Only a coward withdraws. Demonic muslim terrorists started this but we will finish this fight. We don't care what the world thinks of us. We're the only ones with any b@lls to fight the demonic muslim terrorists. Most of the rest of the world is intimidated/afraid of them. We're not. We WILL destroy them.:bravo:

Get a clue. :rolleyes:

Listen to them when? When they took our guys hostage in '79, attacked us 911, or every attack in between? Demonic muslim terrorists are killing people. We're not.
so you admit in having no interest in listening?
WHY? did they take your guys?
You have no concept of demonology, as it is all in the eye of the beholders belief? OUI/NON?
You concept of world perception of your ideals outside the muslim bubble is so narrow that if like anorexia you feel great, but if turn sideways and see, how you are seen, you will disappear.
The Koran has 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers.
The entire bible is based on suffering for those who don't believe:crazy:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm.
Whatever path you took to get where you are I want no step on

Only a coward withdraws. Demonic muslim terrorists started this but we will finish this fight. We don't care what the world thinks of us. We're the only ones with any b@lls to fight the demonic muslim terrorists. Most of the rest of the world is intimidated/afraid of them. We're not. We WILL destroy them.

Get a clue.

So you sound like a terrorist now??????????
and if you got balls we ain't having that beer.:scratchin: