Morality: ennie-minnie-minie-moe

I cannot remember where I read it but is resonates for me; ‘all decisions, wherein there is a choice, are moral decisions’. One may find quibbles to get around this message but the essence of the matter is that for a person seeking to be moral, all judgments from which decisions are derived warrant careful consideration.

In an attempt to comprehend the nature of ethics/morality one will find a forest of writings but essentially each person must build his or her own model of what ethics/morality means. Somewhere along the way toward becoming an enlightened person regarding this matter we all must settle on that which makes sense for us. That does not mean that we remain static about the matter but it means that we settle on some model that is our personal guide until we decide to change it.

Our community and our family mold our moral sense as we grow up. But at some point we must remold that model to fit our adult self. I am an American and my sense of ethics/morality was codified by the Declaration and the Constitution as I grew up and it is what determines, to a large extent, my adult sense in this matter.

The Declaration declares ‘We hold these truths to be self evident, all men are created equal and they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights’. The Constitution sets forth a listing of the rights of all citizens that are to be protected by law. These declarations are part of my heritage and are what I accept as the foundation of my sense of morality.

It appears that the two concepts ‘right’ and ‘good’ form the foundation of any moral system. The ‘good’ is ‘rational desire’ and the ‘right’ has varying meanings. The status of the right seems to be the important variable that determines what one’s ethical/moral model becomes.

I call my model of morality as being a closed system as opposed to an open system. I call my system a closed system because ‘right’ is clearly defined in the Declaration and the Constitution as being prior to the good. That which is right has a fence around it with a big “No Trespassing” sign and is closed to usurpation by the good. A different system could be called an open system when there is no closed area representing rights but that the right is considered as being that which maximizes the good.

I suspect that often we do not have the knowledge and understanding to determine at the time we make our decisions which matters might be amoral as opposed to moral. I think that a moral person needs to have that consideration constantly in mind and thus to form habits that help to keep us on track even though we often act unconsciously. It is all a part of developing character I guess.

Questions for discussion

Would you say that an act can be a moral or immoral without our being conscious of the matter?

Where do these two concepts, right and good, fit into your model of morality and or ethics? I use the term ethics/morality to mean that the two terms are the same for me.

Assume that some young person reads my OP and is inspired by it to study what morality is all about. Then that person goes on to read a response and s/he sees that the responder ridiculed the OP. This then deflates the idea to study morality. Can the ridicule be considered to have been an amoral act?

Would you say that an act can be a moral or immoral without our being conscious of the matter?

As judged by whom? And when?

Baron Max

Chivalric codes?

* Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches, and shalt observe all its directions.
* Thou shalt defend the Church.
* Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
* Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born.
* Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
* Thou shalt make war against the Infidel without cessation, and without mercy.
* Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God.
* Thou shalt never lie, and shall remain faithful to thy pledged word.
* Thou shalt be generous, and give largess to everyone.
* Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil.

As judged by whom? And when?

Baron Max

Morality is the responsibility of the individual. Other people will judge my moral behavior but it is up to each individual to determine what is moral, i.e.what is good and what is evil.

And so, morality is forged from immorality... requiring it.

Next!

Morality is the responsibility of the individual.

I disagree. Unless the individual is alone in the world, morality is set and determined by the family, tribe, clan, society in which he lives. Man is not an island unto himself in this modern world.

Other people will judge my moral behavior but it is up to each individual to determine what is moral, i.e.what is good and what is evil.

Nope, society does that .....NOT the individual unless he wants to go to jail or be exiled or such. Man is not an island unto himself. To think so is to take "idealism" to extremes ...much like terrorists and criminals do.

Baron Max

The morality of society and religion are imposed. You follow this or you find yourself at odds with that society or religion.

The morality of the individual is created in that individual. Of course it is influenced by society, religion, etc., however it is brewed up in the self. Experience and perspective being the most important ingredients.
The morality of self interest is the only "honest" morality.

I have a constantly changing attitude toward morality. My views are changing because I am constantly studying subject matter that is related to the problem of morality. In fact as I study these matters I find that the most important concerns of sapiens is morality based.

I have a cartoon figure that my son has crated for me that speaks to my general attitude toward morality. The figure has an Arnold-like upper torso set on two spindle weak veracious veined legs. The upper torso is our ‘man of science’ and the lower body represents our ‘science of man’, i.e. morality. We are rapidly running out the clock on human survival unless we quickly develop a moral code that will allow us to live together.

I suspect that almost all of us would behave uniformly when encountering face-to-face with another person’s misfortune—we would all feel instant sympathy. We are born with ‘sympathetic vibrations’--we often automatically tear-up in all the same situations. However there seems to be two moral concepts that determine many social-political situations.

“The two main concepts of ethics are those of the right and the good; the concept of a morally worthy person is, I believe, derived from them.” This quote and any others are from “A Theory of Justice” by John Rawls.

It appears that both philosophy and common sense distinguish between the concepts ‘right’ and ‘good’. The interrelationship of these two concepts in many minds will determine what is considered to be ethical/moral behavior. Most citizens in a just society consider that rights “are taken for granted and the rights secured by justice are not subject to political bargaining or to the calculus of social interests.” The Constitution of the United States defines the rights of all citizens, which are considered to be sacrosanct (sacred or holy).

Many consider that the “most rational conception of justice is utilitarian…a society is properly arranged when its institutions maximize the net balance of satisfaction…It is natural to think that rationality is maximizing something and that in morals it must be maximizing the good.”

Some advocates of utilitarianism believe that rights have a secondary validity from the fact that “under the conditions of civilized society there is a great social utility in following them [rights] for the most part and in permitting violations only under exceptional circumstances.” The good, for society, is the satisfaction of rational desire. The right is that which maximizes the good; some advocates of utilitarianism account for rights as being a socially useful consideration.

Captain Dave will under no circumstance torture a prisoner. Captain Jim will torture a prisoner when he considers such action will save the lives of his platoon.

Some utilitarians consider the rights enunciated in the constitution are a useful means to fortify the good. Captain Jim, while recognizing the rights in the Constitution, considers these rights are valid and useful but only because they promote the good. The rights defined in the Constitution can be violated but only in the name of the common good.

Captain Dave may very well be an advocate of utilitarianism but he considers that right is different in kind from good and right cannot be forfeit to good under any condition.

Liberals take the stance that to agree on the fact means to agree on the morality of the situation. Any deviation is indefensible and reflects only selfish rationalization. Liberals find it almost impossible to respect the moral position of conservatives and conservatives find it impossible to judge that liberals are the intellectual equals of conservatives.

The apparent reason for this disjunction is the fact that liberals and conservatives seem to have “their own kind of morality” according to the analysis in ”The Morality of Politics” by W. H. Walsh.

“What we need to observe is that conservatives and liberals are working within different traditions of morality. The morality of the conservative is closed morality; it is the morality of a particular community. The morality of the liberal is an open morality; it is a morality which has nothing to do with any particular human groups, but applies to all men whatever their local affiliations.”

I was raised as a Catholic; I was taught by the nuns the Catholic doctrine regarding sin, punishment, and consciousness. Venial sins were like misdemeanors and mortal sins were like felonies. However, this is not a completely accurate analogy because if a person dies with venial sin on the soul s/he would be punished by having to spend time in purgatory before going to heaven but if a person died with mortal sin on the soul s/he went directly to hell for eternity.

Confession was the standard means for ‘erasing sin from the soul’. A confession was considered to be a ‘good confession’ only if the sinner confessed the sins to a priest and was truly sorry for having committed sin. A very important element of a good confession was an examination of consciousness, which meant the person must become fully conscious of having committed the sin.

Ignorance of the sin was no excuse just as ignorance of the law is no excuse. Herein lays the rub. Knowledge and consciousness of sin were necessary conditions for the erasure of sin from the soul in confession.

"We are rapidly running out the clock on human survival unless we quickly develop a moral code that will allow us to live together."

So True, so true. I'm going to start paying more attention to your posts even though I dislike Becker.

The morality of society and religion are imposed.Imposed from a superficial surface, but mostly ingrained from a historical perspective. And the different moralities of today without a doubt looked very different from their pioneering values of yesterday.

"We are rapidly running out the clock on human survival unless we quickly develop a moral code that will allow us to live together."

So True, so true. I'm going to start paying more attention to your posts even though I dislike Becker.

Why do you dislike Becker?

The morality of society and religion are imposed. You follow this or you find yourself at odds with that society or religion.

And what are you without society? A wild man of the forest and hills? A caveman living by his wits, eating whatever he finds? A man completely alone with no form of company except the animals of the forest?

Modern man simply can not survive without others. And that being the case, society is not only necessary, it's a vital part of man's very existence. Dismissing society as something that is "imposing" standards is not only foolish, it's totally ignorant of the vital functions of society.

The morality of self interest is the only "honest" morality.

Honest morality?? What the fuck is that? ...as determined by each individual? If so, then murder is moral because murderers commit murder? And theft? And rape? And robbery? And genocide? And.....?

Go live in the woods with your "honest morality" ....and see just how long that "honesty" survives. (See my comments above).

Baron Max

Why do you dislike Becker?

Take this with a few heavy grains of salt. Admitting my own faults of attention-span and aversion to most post-modern philosophy, I just find myself saying "get to the point man, the point!". Exhausted when he finally does, I will usually say dismissively "well duh.." or "sure, i guess, too tired to think about it".

And what are you without society? A wild man of the forest and hills? A caveman living by his wits, eating whatever he finds? A man completely alone with no form of company except the animals of the forest?

Modern man simply can not survive without others. And that being the case, society is not only necessary, it's a vital part of man's very existence. Dismissing society as something that is "imposing" standards is not only foolish, it's totally ignorant of the vital functions of society.



Honest morality?? What the fuck is that? ...as determined by each individual? If so, then murder is moral because murderers commit murder? And theft? And rape? And robbery? And genocide? And.....?

Go live in the woods with your "honest morality" ....and see just how long that "honesty" survives. (See my comments above).

Baron Max

It IS important to take part in the morality of Society and for some people - religion(which is an attempt to satisfy moralities a government cannot). Morality comes from these sources - is external. It helps the individual "fit in".

If have a murderous heart and yet do not murder, because your state/country has the "death penalty". You are still a murderer. If you do not, because the bible says "thou shalt not murder", yet would still love nothing more than to kill that SOB on the sciforums. You are still a murderer from a moral point of view.

If you still loathe that person to your deepest depths yet choose not to kill them, because you deem it to solve nothing, to be damaging the world in some small way and to be hurting humanity in general and thus to be damaging yourself. You are only a hater, not a murderer.

P.S Some people can survive without society, yes. Yes they are OFTEN at odds with society.

Take this with a few heavy grains of salt. Admitting my own faults of attention-span and aversion to most post-modern philosophy, I just find myself saying "get to the point man, the point!". Exhausted when he finally does, I will usually say dismissively "well duh.." or "sure, i guess, too tired to think about it".


What is post-modern philosophy and what does it have to do with Becker?

Nothing...just nevermind.