I finialy told my sister that i was an Athiest, it took almost a year, but i did.

I need help i feel soo bad, i have pretty much ripped my fam apart, i don't think they will trust me anymore. I thnk my life is abouit to go to flames....

Please any words of encouragement would be helpful.

I'm in a weird sence of saddness and regreat, regreat for telling them. I feel so alone...

Well you sound like you are kind of young. Probably tell your parents, and give them a couple months to accept it. If they still treat you like a second class kid just pretend you 'refound God' until you move out.

Your parents are probably good people, and while they will initially try and make you change you mind 'for your own good', which will make you feel like shit, they will probably come to terms with it.

All you have to do Ender is put your life in GOD's hands and everything will...oh wait you don't believe in GOD. Oh well, I guess you're shit out of luck...

Just kidding. I struggle with similar emotions, and I sort of have a similar situation. I suggest living your life how your heart tells you to live it man. If your family can't accept you for the person that you are naturally, then they don't deserve you.

It is important that you let them know your feelings, it isn't good to lie to people about something you take seriously.

ZERO MASS

Originally posted by Zero Mass
It is important that you let them know your feelings, it isn't good to lie to people about something you take seriously. But if he doesn't believe in God then he doesn't take it that seriously. If your parents won't accept you, then go ahead and lie about it. It's not going to hurt anyone, and will save you alot of hassle until you move out.

This doesn't mean you shouldn't try the truth first though... lying is just an alternative if your parents are unaccepting jackasses.

Ender,

OK good for you.

To defend your position in the face of overwhelming opposition requires an open minded ability to think clearly and logically, and to focus on the need for evidence from anyone who wants to support their claims. Your goal should be to discover truth and to avoid overwhelming wishful thinking by others in that search. It is easy to believe something that seems nice, but remember that there is nothing that says that truth has to be pleasant.

I admire your courage.

Cris

Well my advice to you, is to get yourself in a position to move out if you're old enough, or at least have somewhere to stay if it's really that big of an issue with your family.

I'd say don't back down, or just pretend to believe, I'm sure you understand how that could end up being a very painful situation for you, and frankly I think it'd be a shame if you had to go through it.

Just try to remind your parents that you're a person with a heart and a mind of your own, that you can only live your life in such a way that makes sense to you, to do anything else would be destructive, destroying your will spirit and identity, and would likely mean simply submitting and giving up control of your life to someone else. The same is true of any person.

I don't imagine it's an easy thing when the child outgrows the parents in this respect, when he no longer needs to be dependent on the idea of a cosmic parental figure, and is ready to be a mental adult before they are.

Good luck, I wish you well.

It might also behoove you to let them know that you still have good set of ethics and values and that they are (probably) still very much in accordance with their own. Contrary to the oft repeated accusation, being an Atheist does not mean one lacks moral values or will become a hedonistic, immoral, sociopath. Aside from their worry about your status in the afterlife this will probably be their primary concern.

Like Cris, I also admire your courage.

Good luck!

~Raithere

P.S. I thought I might also add a personal note. My parents are also Christian. Rather than try and address the issue with a flat out declaration I softened the blow by leading them into a series of discussion about religion and God over a few years where I could gradually reveal my thoughts on the issue. This worked well for me and we had relatively few big arguments. Let them know your thoughts rather than just hitting them with an announcement.

Ender, I sympathize with you, as I am going through a very similar situation right now. I don't know if this will help you, but I have prepared for this by emotionally distancing myself from my family. I know that isn't the best advice, but for my family, I think it is the best thing for me. They are very conservative Catholics and I don't believe that they will ever accept me for who I am anymore. My mom used to be such a positive person, and now I feel that all I get is negativity. My dad doesn't even know yet, which I think is best while I'm still living with my parents. Right now I'm focused on the future - moving out so I can live freely.

My advice is to just be yourself and live your life freely.

But if he doesn't believe in God then he doesn't take it that seriously. If your parents won't accept you, then go ahead and lie about it. It's not going to hurt anyone, and will save you alot of hassle until you move out.
Perhaps disbelief in God is a serious matter for Ender. I know it is for me because I was raised to believe this fairy tale was true and to be intolerant of those who don't believe and of those who do things the Catholic Church doesn't approve of, such as homosexuals or those who choose to have an abortion. I will never lie about my disbelief because it would imply that I encourage this sort of bullshit. I take comfort in expressing the truth about myself.

Well on your personal level, just remember there are LOTS of other positive philosophies and influences out there besides religeon. You have read the Enders game/shadow saga i assume so just concentrate on positive philosophies from souces like that.

Well done for telling them - you are being honest and open, and NO ONE can take that away from you.

And dont forget Ender, you are maybe thinking about them more than you are about yourself - so that is good of you.
If they are upset with you because you are an atheist and beleive differently from them -- does that mean that you have the right to also be upset with them becasue they believe in a religeon and you don't? If you can forgive them for believing in something that you (and many others) do not, then surely they can forgive you to?

You have absolutely done the right thing, and you beleive and are doing what is true to you. You cannot do anymore than that. Good luck Ender!

Originally posted by Cris
Ender,

OK good for you.

To defend your position in the face of overwhelming opposition requires an open minded ability to think clearly and logically

I admire your courage.

Cris

I agree…But I don’t think I agree with the other guy saying that you should move out because of this.

I guess to your family atheism would sound something like devil worshiper. So why would you call yourself an atheist and fuck up your family? Did you give up on searching for a reason to life? Why not just tell them that you won’t agree with anything people say about god’s existence until there’s proof? Is it necessary to mark yourself as an atheist? Does an atheist even have proof that god does not exist. (See, it works both ways) Is it worth losing your friendship with your family?
Everyone’s searching for some truth out of this world. Searching into stars and what not. I think the only thing worth worshiping and believing in is earth. It’s the place we all live in. It’s ours! and there's nothing else like it! just live your life to the fullest and make it a better place for your children.

bla bla ;)

Is it necessary to mark yourself as an atheist? Does an atheist even have proof that god does not exist.
An atheist doesn't need proof that God does not exist. Such proof would be impossible to obtain. Rather, an atheist does not believe that God exists. This is often because there is no proof that he does.

I agree with Zero Mass' comment:
I suggest living your life how your heart tells you to live it man. If your family can't accept you for the person that you are naturally, then they don't deserve you.

One of the most enjoyable aspects of my life where the topic of religion is raised in everyday life is to help educate others understand the atheist position. But I rarely use the label ‘atheist’ since you then become a target. The real issue is the religionist claims and your disbelief in them which would become apparent as you debate, and even then the label need not be raised. It is important to realize that atheism is essentially a disbelief process and not an opposing belief system. The focus should always be on the lack of credibility and substance of religion.

I enjoy such apparent confrontations although they do not have to be confrontational. A self controlled non-aggressive and unemotional approach to the issues will diffuse most potential conflict. But I agree that trying to run away from the confrontations will not always help since the issue will fester for a long time unless faced head-on. The initial objective should be an acceptance of tolerance for the views of others, by both sides. That doesn’t imply acceptance of opposing views. Education, debate, discussion, patience and time, are all key elements, so don’t expect people with long-held views to change overnight or to understand what you mean when you state your apparently new and unexpected label.

There's not much more I can say than, "Good luck". What is the Sciforums score, anyway? I remember Flash converted some time ago, but what's the count on atheistic announcements?

On a sarcastic note, though offered with some genuine care, remind them that God works in mysterious ways. If they believe in God, remind them that this is the day the Lord hath made, and they should rejoice and be glad in it.

Mind you, I honestly mean it, but I don't expect it to calm anything. So I admit it's not particularly helpful. Remember to speak to them in a context they understand, but also bear in mind the danger that I have demonstrated: being condescending.

But if you can say it and mean it compassionately, you'll know what to do with it from there.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

I strongly suggest not changing your mind. It will only prove to your parents that you were misguided, being young and foolish, going through puberty, blah blah blah, you know the story.

You must stick by your beliefs! Charles Darwin stood by his beliefs. Galileo stood by his beliefs. Everyone with a strong backbone will stand by what they believe.

Write an essay on why you are an atheist. Put down all of your points, evidence, persuasive language. Then show it to your sister, parents, etc.

I find it hard to tell someone my beliefs. It is easier to write them down for me.

You MUST be strong. You get nowhere in the world by crumbling under pressure, or submitting to another person because they don't agree with you.

Ender,

I assume your parents are Christian...

Christianity teaches tolerance of other opinions. A person should not be persecuted for his beliefs. Perhaps you should remind your parents of this.

The problem is that if your parents are really committed Christians, they probably feel like they are losing you to the dark side. What you need to do, as I think somebody else said earlier, is to reassure them that changing your religious views hasn't changed <b>you</b> in a fundamental way. You still (most likely) share the same core moral values about the sanctity of life, treating other people fairly and so on, as your parents. You should reassure them that you agree with them on all the things which are really important.

Would a loving God send you to hell just because you didn't believe in him? Who'd want a God like that? Surely you'd have to do something <b>really</b> bad.

Good luck.

good for you Ender. you have more guts than i do. I haven't had that talk with my mother yet. and i'm a bit older.

hell i feel bad telling people i know that i'm atheist(err, agnostic). just this weekend everyone was bonding over talking about easter and passover and what not. and i was like, "ummm, sure i might eat some easter eggs". but i didn't want to say "oh i'm not christian, i'm atheist". too awkward for me. maybe i should though.

anyway..

good luck with all that:cool:

hopefully you didn't say it in a temple like i did. my mom handled it pretty well though, she just said 'have faith.'

Thanks for all the support. I wish I could tell you that everthing went well. However that would be a lie. They got really mad at me. They even screamed to me that now I was going to burn in Hell. My mother broke down and started crying.

Up until this point in my life I have been trying to please my paretents and be grateful for everything they have done for me. When my mom started crying it hurt, i had a breif moment of greif and deep saddness. I assured my self that it had to be done someday, and now seemed like as good a time as ever.

Again I thank you all. But I have one more thing to say:


Does an atheist even have proof that god does not exist

The only reason why I would need evidence that God doesn't exist is because someone said he did. I can say they there are little green men in my room, and you can't dissprove it, so for a while you have to believe that there are little green men here. However if i don't say anything about it then you don't need evidence that there aren't green men here!

Thanks for all the support. I wish I could tell you that everthing went well. However that would be a lie. They got really mad at me. They even screamed to me that now I was going to burn in Hell. My mother broke down and started crying.

Up until this point in my life I have been trying to please my paretents and be grateful for everything they have done for me. When my mom started crying it hurt, i had a breif moment of greif and deep saddness. I assured my self that it had to be done someday, and now seemed like as good a time as ever.

Again I thank you all. But I have one more thing to say:


Does an atheist even have proof that god does not exist

The only reason why I would need evidence that God doesn't exist is because someone said he did. I can say they there are little green men in my room, and you can't dissprove it, so for a while you have to believe that there are little green men here. However if i don't say anything about it then you don't need evidence that there aren't green men here!

Ender, you done well. I am extremely proud of you, for standing up for what you believe in.

Not many men (or women) can say that they withstood pressure and stood up for what they believed in, no matter what the cost. A true person will stand by his principles and do/think what is right no matter what.

You must talk to your parents and make them see your side of the story. Go with my idea and write an essay. I seriously doubt you will be able to talk about your disbelief with them.

Ask them why their all loving god would send you to hell (or even care about anyone worshipping him for that matter)

My mother is a christian but I never made a point to "come out of the closet" and tell her that I was an atheist. I never really labelled myself an atheist. I've just been myself and from having discussions with her over the years I can be pretty sure she knows I'm no longer a christian.
I've eased my mother into it, it started with not being interested in church at a young age and screaming at her that I don't want to go, to telling her how I feel about things that happen on the news and so on.
My lack of christian values is fairly obvious when I'm being honest about how I feel about things.
So I wish I could have talked to you years ago.
Easing them into the fact is the best way. My mother would have went nuts if I acted like a christian my whole life and then suddenly "broke the news" that I've been faking it my whole life.
It helped that I've never feared my mother or feared saying whats on my mind. She learned to accept the fact that I'm my own person a very long time ago.

I manage to keep the guise that i am a normal productive kid.
i plan on doing this till i move out.
but its a lot to hide. and i'm geting tired of secrets.
i would list all the things i wish i had the guts to tell them.
but i cant. it would be too long
if my family new the reall me it would simply end with tere tears, my blood, and a nice strate jacket.
i dont want those things.
im keeping it 'bottled up' for now.



________________________________________
then again why listen to me. I'm just another sycopath


ٔÄ

Originally posted by Ender
I finialy told my sister that i was an Athiest, it took almost a year, but i did.

I need help i feel soo bad, i have pretty much ripped my fam apart, i don't think they will trust me anymore. I thnk my life is abouit to go to flames....

Please any words of encouragement would be helpful.

I'm in a weird sence of saddness and regreat, regreat for telling them. I feel so alone...



Ok first of all why did you tell them? i understand if it was such a burden to keep it inside but if it wasn't then you should have kept peace with that fact inside of you. Now that you have spilled the beans obviously then i agree with Persol somewhat; just lie to your family by accepting god again....ofcourse it will only be a visage of acceptence but if it makes life easier then it should do for a while before you start to hate yourself for lying to yourself. I guess there is no real good advice in this situation other than to talk it out with your family because the longer they harbor the negative feelings against you the worse it gets.

I am guessing your parents think since you are atheist you have lost all morals, values and good judgement and that you'll probably become a hedonistic bastard.....but show them that atheism isn't a bad thing by any means and that it's just another form of acceptence albeit this acceptence is sans god. I doubt they will stop loving you as their own but it'll be rough from now on.


Good luck;)


BTW if you don't mind me asking what made you decide to not believe in the concept of god?....

BTW if you don't mind me asking what made you decide to not believe in the concept of god?....

There were a lot of reasons, that really hit it home for me. Things like free-will, and evolution were factors as well. But one of the main things was that every culture has a religon. However everyone has a different god. Greeks had the Zues things, but nowadays people regard that as a fairytale.

It wuold take a long time to explain exactly why, but i sdon't have the time now. Maybe somday i will formalise an essay on why i'm an Athiest!

Ender says:

"There were a lot of reasons, that really hit it home for me. Things like free-will, and evolution were factors as well."
--The former sounds pretty metaphysical and philosophical, but the latter? Evolutionary theory makes no implication about the existance or control of the supernatural.

"But one of the main things was that every culture has a religon. However everyone has a different god. Greeks had the Zues things, but nowadays people regard that as a fairytale."
--So.. what about atheism? Why Atheism over say, agnosticism? Personally, I'm a theist, but as to the mechanics and evolutionary development of the earth, life, and the cosmos--I'm a bit of an agnostic there.

--What is it that you have found which is directly and unequivocally indicative for atheism?


-Chris Grose
Geoscience Editor
Organization for Young Scientists Inquiry
http://www.oysi.promisoft.net

well do you want a good solution? start believing. this time seek god as much as you can and you will find him, as jesus said "seek and you shall find, knock and you will be answeared" if you used to believe, your faith wasnt strong enough and thats why you dont believe. (that happend to me once) but, when i was cruising channel's one day and i saw some religious one, they were saying a prayer to those people who have strayed away from their faith, and said that atleast ONE person will come back. i guess they were right. "read mathew 22 whole chapter and mathew 16 1-5

following the herd is always a good solution.

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by edgar
well do you want a good solution? start believing. this time seek god as much as you can and you will find him, as jesus said "seek and you shall find, knock and you will be answeared" if you used to believe, your faith wasnt strong enough and thats why you dont believe. (that happend to me once) but, when i was cruising channel's one day and i saw some religious one, they were saying a prayer to those people who have strayed away from their faith, and said that atleast ONE person will come back. i guess they were right. "read mathew 22 whole chapter and mathew 16 1-5

I have never in my life seen a person who is so determined to make someone believe in his way or else kindda deal. Edgar, if you are so sure that you are saved, shouldn't you be partying and having fun and who cares about the rest of annoying people...You are saved already, start planning your castle decorations in paradise and shit....why are you trying to pull more strangers to your hell...I mean heaven?

What is it that you have found which is directly and unequivocally indicative for atheism?
Agnosticism and atheism most often overlap each other. Most agnostics are also atheists in that they lack a positive belief in God. Most atheists are also agnostics in that they don't claim to know for certain that God does not exist.

I suppose it is a matter of personal preference regarding whether you wish to define yourself in terms of what you don't know or what you don't believe. Since you can't really know anything for certain, I personally choose to define myself in terms of what I believe (or in this case, what I don't believe). Therefore I describe myself as an atheist.

well do you want a good solution? start believing.
That is one of the stupidest things I've read in my time here in this forum.

Yeah Edgar, I'm sorry to rag on you but you take the cake when it comes to delusion. I hope that you do better on future posts because so far you are sounding like a unintelligent, confused youth.

I kind of understand what your going through. This Easter me and my girlfriend(Christain) were in her living room (she knows im atheist) and we talked about dying for some reason. She started crying on me, saying things like "when you die, I'll never see you ever again!" It broke my heart, and made me want to believe in an afterlife. Its really hard. Afterlife would be wonderful....but unlike movies, everything doesnt have a happy ending. I feel so bad for her. If she beleives, thats fine.....but I put myself in her position: What if there was such a thing, and SHE wouldnt be there? It made me so upset.

But what is Heaven without the person you love? Would she truly be happy in this "paradise" without me? I wouldnt want to live without her...and Im finding it hard to right now.

I wish it were all true, beleive me. But like every culture, there are gods of magic powers.....and what makes this book (one of millions) true?

NOBODY WILL EVER KNOW THE END....NOONE ALIVE ANYWAY.

Originally posted by ZeRo X
But what is Heaven without the person you love?
You should make this life your heaven, because it's in all probability the only one you will have.

Originally posted by Jade Squirrel
You should make this life your heaven, because it's in all probability the only one you will have.
--How do you figure?

-Chris Grose
Geoscience Editor
Organization for Young Scientists Inquiry
http://www.oysi.promisoft.net

Originally posted by TrueCreation
How do you figure?
Absolutely no evidence to suggest that we can experience anything after death. Since experience is stored in the brain, and all brain activity stops after you die, it is reasonable to presume that you can no longer experience anything after death. Sure, you can't prove that there isn't an afterlife, but why waste your life focusing on something that, for all we know, doesn't even exist?

Originally posted by edgar
well do you want a good solution? start believing. this time seek god as much as you can and you will find him, as jesus said "seek and you shall find, knock and you will be answeared" if you used to believe, your faith wasnt strong enough and thats why you dont believe. (that happend to me once) but, when i was cruising channel's one day and i saw some religious one, they were saying a prayer to those people who have strayed away from their faith, and said that atleast ONE person will come back. i guess they were right. "read mathew 22 whole chapter and mathew 16 1-5
--If this was an attempt at answering my last post to edgar--your reply carries very poor logic.

-Chris Grose
Geoscience Editor
Organization for Young Scientists Inquiry
http://www.oysi.promisoft.net

Originally posted by Jade Squirrel
Absolutely no evidence to suggest that we can experience anything after death.
--Thats nice, but that doesn't substantiate any confident assertion that "it's in all probability the only one you will have".

Since experience is stored in the brain, and all brain activity stops after you die, it is reasonable to presume that you can no longer experience anything after death.
--But by definition the afterlife would be supernatural--why would you make such a presumption by noting the capacity of any physical entity (ie, the brain)?

Sure, you can't prove that there isn't an afterlife, but why waste your life focusing on something that, for all we know, doesn't even exist? [/B]
--I dunno, what kind of personal research have you done to come to such a conclusion(that he probably doesn't exist--this assertion is unfoundable by the means of positive evidence but should have been deduced[and be substantiated] by taking into account negative evidence[ie, evidence against the notion]).

Cheers,
-Chris Grose
Geoscience Editor
Organization for Young Scientists Inquiry
http://www.oysi.promisoft.net

Originally posted by TrueCreation
Thats nice, but that doesn't substantiate any confident assertion that "it's in all probability the only one you will have".
It substantiates such an assertion just as much as does the assertion that there are no such things as unicorns. There is no evidence to indicate that there is an afterlife, just as there is an equally low amount of evidence to suggest the existence of unicorns.

But by definition the afterlife would be supernatural--why would you make such a presumption by noting the capacity of any physical entity (ie, the brain)?
No evidence that anything supernatural exists either. You are using an unproven concept to give credibility to another unproven concept.

I dunno, what kind of personal research have you done to come to such a conclusion(that he probably doesn't exist--this assertion is unfoundable by the means of positive evidence but should have been deduced[and be substantiated] by taking into account negative evidence[ie, evidence against the notion]).
No one can say for sure if there is life after death. The only personal research I have in mind is dying, and I don't plan to undertake such an experiment for a long time. Unfortunately, I will also be unable to share the results of my experiment with anyone here. ;)

It substantiates such an assertion just as much as does the assertion that there are no such things as unicorns. There is no evidence to indicate that there is an afterlife, just as there is an equally low amount of evidence to suggest the existence of unicorns.

--Yes and no. It is somewhat true that you have substantiated it juast as much as "does the assertion that there are no such things as unicorns." but then again, you still havent substantiated that they don't exist, God, the afterlife, let alone unicorns.

"No evidence that anything supernatural exists either. You are using an unproven concept to give credibility to another unproven concept."
--No, that isn't what I am saying. What I am saying is that you have made an assertion which falls along the line of "No evidence that anything supernatural exists either" <i>therefore, it doesn't exist</i>. Even inserting the word 'probably' tips the balance, but there can be nothing to tip that balance--at least directly.

"No one can say for sure if there is life after death. The only personal research I have in mind is dying, and I don't plan to undertake such an experiment for a long time. Unfortunately, I will also be unable to share the results of my experiment with anyone here."
--So what is it for you? Agnosticism, or atheism? We have just made considerable substantiation that the latter is insuperior to the former.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose
Geoscience Editor
Organization for Young Scientists Inquiry
http://www.oysi.promisoft.net

just to tell you james, god is merciful BUT he is kind of like a fair judge. he tells you how to get into the kingdom of heaven through the prophets, jesus, and bible. He gives laws, and says if we obey them we will enter the kingdom of heaven. he even tells us what will happend if we DONt believe in him etc, etc. if he was a tyrant, then he would just throw peopel down to hell even though they obeyed his commandments

Originally posted by TrueCreation
Yes and no. It is somewhat true that you have substantiated it juast as much as "does the assertion that there are no such things as unicorns." but then again, you still havent substantiated that they don't exist, God, the afterlife, let alone unicorns.
You're right. I haven't proven that these things don't exist, nor can I. However, I have explained why I don't believe that they do exist.

What I am saying is that you have made an assertion which falls along the line of "No evidence that anything supernatural exists either" <i>therefore, it doesn't exist</i>. Even inserting the word 'probably' tips the balance, but there can be nothing to tip that balance--at least directly.
I never said "therefore it doesn't exist". I cannot state for certain that something does not exist. I am simply justifying my disbelief in such things. My insertion of the word "probably" is indicative of my belief, or disbelief in this case. When one says that unicorns probably don't exist, it doesn't change whether they do exist or not. The 'probably' refers to the asserting person's level of certainty. We are talking about belief, not reality.

So what is it for you? Agnosticism, or atheism? We have just made considerable substantiation that the latter is insuperior to the former.
Both actually. I don't claim to know whether a deity or an afterlife exists; this makes me an agnostic. I don't believe that a deity (or an afterlife) exists; this makes me an atheist. Neither one is superior. They are simply words that deal with different realms of thought: knowledge and belief. As I stated above:

Agnosticism and atheism most often overlap each other. Most agnostics are also atheists in that they lack a positive belief in God. Most atheists are also agnostics in that they don't claim to know for certain that God does not exist.

I suppose it is a matter of personal preference regarding whether you wish to define yourself in terms of what you don't know or what you don't believe. Since you can't really know anything for certain, I personally choose to define myself in terms of what I believe (or in this case, what I don't believe). Therefore I describe myself as an atheist.

Ender- it might be worth reminding your parents (or it might make thyings worse, I don't know them) about the story of the prodical son.
God loves even those who go astray- he seems to like them more, the good son who stayed at home didn't get a party!

So as far as I can tell, there is nothing bad in straying from the religion; if you come back, you should get a grand reception. The only danger would be if your family then makes it their mission to "re-convert" you. you have to make the call to believe in God again yourself - them bugging insessantly will not get you to believe, but they may think that it will.



In general, I don't believe in God, and I don't not believe in God. He may be out there, he may not. Until I know for sure, I'll do my best to balance things such that I get to enjoy this wonderful oppurtunity to be alive and also such that I don't make those around me miserable by trying to please someone I don't know is watching.

If it turns out that God exsists, I certainly hope that life of helping people is good enough to get into heaven. The bible seems to suggest that I need to cry out my love for god, which I don't do. But heaven is just a place "outside the precense of God", and not a firely Devil place, according to the bible, so I don't really think it would be horrible. and if it is, then I made a mistake. Oh, well.

God has us here to be his perfect creation, imbued with the chance to screw up. Why would he punish us eternally for failing the test? All that means is we weren't good enough to pass the test, not that we were horrible people. If I am made in God's image, I can only asusme that God is a logical being, so my failure, logically shouldn't mean that I need to suffer forever under satan's rule.

So, assuming for minute that God exsists, he created humans, and he is logical, why would me dying before I decide to believe in him damn me to hell?
If you have a child, and he refuses to listen to you about the dangers of traffic, and dies, you may be angry at him. However, given the chance, would you damn his soul to hell for not listening to you? If you truely love, I would say, no, you would forgive his mistakes, and allow him into heaven, whether or not he learned his lesson. why? because you love him, and according to modern christianity, there is no reincarnation, so there's no longer a lesson to be learned. He doesn't need to know the dangers of traffic while living for all eternity in heaven.

So I will be my agnostic self, and continue seeing no reason or requirement for the exsistance of God. If my actions to try and help every living thing on this planet do not allow me to get into heaven, then I see no reason to want to get into heaven. If such petty pride on the part of God requires that you worship him to see his face when you die, then I have no desire to meet him. In sucha a case, he would be more petty than most people on this planet. And if he exsists, I seriously doubt he is *that* self-involved.


edit:fixed the spelling errors that I could find

"You're right. I haven't proven that these things don't exist, nor can I. However, I have explained why I don't believe that they do exist."
--Your 'reason' seems less scientific than metaphysical.

"I never said "therefore it doesn't exist". I cannot state for certain that something does not exist. I am simply justifying my disbelief in such things. My insertion of the word "probably" is indicative of my belief, or disbelief in this case. When one says that unicorns probably don't exist, it doesn't change whether they do exist or not. The 'probably' refers to the asserting person's level of certainty. We are talking about belief, not reality. "
--Yes, but there is a reason you would deduce the level of certainty--you seem to manage your level of certainty by metaphysical means, as opposed to objective.

--There is an objective reason why people dismiss the existance of unicorns as probable--simply because it came from historical writing by humans which are merely unsupportable stories. We render them fairytales.

"Both actually. I don't claim to know whether a deity or an afterlife exists; this makes me an agnostic. I don't believe that a deity (or an afterlife) exists; this makes me an atheist. Neither one is superior. They are simply words that deal with different realms of thought: knowledge and belief."
--This substantiates that the former (agnosticism) is superior to atheism because the latter is philisophical, the former is well founded in logic and reasoning as far as we have discussed.

"Agnosticism and atheism most often overlap each other. Most agnostics are also atheists in that they lack a positive belief in God. Most atheists are also agnostics in that they don't claim to know for certain that God does not exist. "
--Yup, this is fine as long as the proponent of the belief realizes that atheism is addressed from a lack of knowledge while agnosticism is addressed by knowledge, logic, and reasoning.

Conclusion:
--Atheism is the belief in the doctrine that there is NO God. This is based on an inference from things unknown.

--Agnosticism is the belief or stance in which one realizes that they cannot know for certainty whether there is a God or not. This is based on an inference from things known.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose
Geoscience Editor
Organization for Young Scientists Inquiry
http://www.oysi.promisoft.net

Take a trip back to mythology....we all laugh if someone thinks all of that is true. But the people then were so sure of it.....kind of like now. In hundreds of years, will the future people be doing the same to todays religons?

Life is very unexplainable. Its a pointless rollercoaster that, in the end, brings death. I dont see the need to live.


If this book of fabricated stories breaks me and my girlfriend(the only reason I even live anymore) apart, I will snap upon it. I dont mean to sound so sure....Im sorry for all who do believe....but the human race is pathetic. All they ever want is hope and happy endings. Make your own beliefs people. Do what you think is right. Your life is yours....after its over.....its...over.

People=****

Originally posted by TrueCreation
Conclusion:
Atheism is the belief in the doctrine that there is NO God. This is based on an inference from things unknown.As theism is belief in the existence of God(s), atheism is simply the lack of belief in God(s). This is generally called the weak atheistic position but it is also the universal atheistic position. Atheism also includes the strong position; those who believe that God does not exist. This, however, is not a universal Atheist position and most Atheists see this as an assumptive and unsupported position, left unqualified.

Therefore, unless specifying the strong position, you are necessarily addressing the universal position which is simply a lack of belief in God(s). As such, the logic is quite straightforward. There is no objective evidence that warrants such a belief. Thus your statement regarding unicorns; "people dismiss the existance of unicorns as probable--simply because it came from historical writing by humans which are merely unsupportable stories" is equally applicable to stories of God(s).

This substantiates that the former (agnosticism) is superior to atheism because the latter is philisophical, the former is well founded in logic and reasoning as far as we have discussed.This statement makes no sense, logic is a philosophical field. As to making evaluative statements; you've yet to prove your conclusion, much less establish a basis of worth.

~Raithere

What Raithere said. :)

If i lived with a family that made me feel bad like that,id buy a chainsaw and chop them up.

Seriously,you dont need help,youre free thinking capable of your own decisions,if they dont like it tell em to fuck off and die.

Its that simple.

Then theyll start thinking your a child of satan,in this situation heres what you do:

Buy mushy peas,pea soup wahtever as long as its green,get corpse makeup,now one night get up before everyone else,put on the corpse make up,when awoken spit out the green stuff and go "arrrgghhhh,fuking bitch,argghhhhh i love satan,hail satan bitch"

Originally posted by TrueCreation
--Atheism is the belief in the doctrine that there is NO God.
I just have to point out that this is one of the biggest misconceptions about atheism. As Raithere said, atheism is simply disbelief in the existence of God. People may not have belief in the existence of God because they never thought about that concept or because they have thought about it and decided for themselves that it is improbable. We are all born atheists.

The whole deal about an Afterlife is very funny to me, and when people confront be about it i always ask them a question:

What was life like befor you were born? I don't mean the history, but for you personally, what do you remember from before you were born.

Then normally answer that they can't obviously, then I say that that is what life will be like after you die.


TrueCreaton:

--There is an objective reason why people dismiss the existance of unicorns as probable--simply because it came from historical writing by humans which are merely unsupportable stories. We render them fairytales.

Let me see here the bible was written by:
Moses --- human
Paul -- human
Mathew -- human
John -- human
luke -- human
.. and many other all human

merely unsupportable stories:
Noah's ark
Parting of the red Sea
Adam and Eve
Johna and the whale
Tower of Bable
Virgin birth
Resurection
assension


So accorinding to your logic we should regard these as fairytale?
This is great that means I'm ahead of the curve!

merely unsupportable stories:
Noah's ark
Parting of the red Sea
Adam and Eve
Johna and the whale
Tower of Bable
Virgin birth
Resurection
assension


Actually, I've hear that there is some scientific support coming in for a less glorified version of Noah's Ark, and also the fact that it may not have been the red sea which was crossed during exodux, but rather the dead sea. A small portion of it gives way to land for a very short period of time each year.

To me, the stories of Adam and Eve, Jonah and the Whale, and the Tower of Babel are just metaphors of some kind. And I don't believe in Jesus so I won't comment on the last ones. He was a man just like anyone else. And many people have survived more gruesome punishments than a crucifiction.


As for being honest with your parents - when will you ever learn? Honesty never pays off with parents because they're the least objective of anyone towards their 'ownership' of you. Parents absolutely believe that they know what's best for you. And the fact is they don't. -Unless you conform. That's something I highly reccommend not doing. Just be as dirty and controlling over yourself as they are to you.

Gotta tell you,though, you made a really bad decision to tell 'em now buddy. It's like banging your head up against a wall. But hopefully you'll be able to move out on your own soon. They'll NEVER accept you for the rest of your life. THis is natural rejection into the wild, just like any other species. Even though they may still love you as their son. All I can say is get over it. Move on. I think it's great that you've come to terms with your own beliefs, and I'm not against you. The fact is, your childhood relationship with them has come to an end, and by taking you seriously, they've accepted you as an adult.

-congrats :cool:

the main problem I always had w/ johna and the whale was there's this pesky thing called stomach acid.....

Personally, I'm waiting until I move out before I tell my dad I'm an atheist. If I told him now, he would make my home an unpleasant place for me to live. It's really bugging me too because I am a very expressive person. Oh well, only about six more months to go.

Yup, that's the way to be. It's a sad truth that you can't be honest with your own parents without having them react negatively all of the time. Nothing but bitchin' in my house. Whenever I try to reveal the truth or real reasons for my actions to my parents, they use it as an opportunity to throw shit at me. No matter how much they deny that's what they do, it's what they do. So I can't be honest with them. And they come out and blame me? nuh-uh, parents have always been the perpetrators of bad behaviour in their kids.

The only reason they encourage honesty is so that they can maintain greater control over you. You made a really shitty decision Ender. If it helps, tell your parents that they're responsible for your not believing because 'no God would have ever put you in a position like this'.

(NOTE: I believe in God, myself. But I don't think he gives a damn what we do here on Earth.)

Originally posted by Elbaz
So I can't be honest with them.
Once I move out, I plan on being very honest about everything with them. This will lead to some pretty negative situations, but I will have my own home/sanctuary to come back to.

The only reason they encourage honesty is so that they can maintain greater control over you.
Oh, that's an interesting point! I'll have to make sure that is not the reason I will encourage honesty in my children.

You made a really shitty decision Ender.
The decision is made. Ender felt he needed to get it off his chest, and I respect that. Now he has to make the best of the situation, but at least he can feel free about his beliefs. Perhaps the road to healing with his family can begin sooner this way.

what an alien topic! who are you people??

:D

You can always be honest when you move out, but when you're dependant, you should keep secretively. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with staying home, but we should get over this age 25 mentality here. I want out as soon as I can. I think we all agree that it's better that way. Most times...



Oh, that's an interesting point! I'll have to make sure that is not the reason I will encourage honesty in my children.

Can't stop it unless you adopt different behaviours. Cognitive dissonance will always rule over your intentions. Parents become parents through practical evolutionary standards, and drive you
out of the home when the time is right. I wouldn't worry though. We all say that we'll be better parents than ours were. hehe

The decision is made. Ender felt he needed to get it off his chest, and I respect that. Now he has to make the best of the situation, but at least he can feel free about his beliefs. Perhaps the road to healing with his family can begin sooner this way.

Yup, no arguing that. I respect his decision too, even though he made the wrong one. It's time to make the best of his situation and move on. One thing that I will argue is this 'healing' thing, because his parents probably wont get over it. Ever. Just my personal opinion. They may resume communication (as in they probably will,) but things will never be the same.

Originally posted by Elbaz
You can always be honest when you move out, but when you're dependant, you should keep secretively.
In your opinion. Not everyone may share that opinion though.

Can't stop it unless you adopt different behaviours. Cognitive dissonance will always rule over your intentions. Parents become parents through practical evolutionary standards, and drive you out of the home when the time is right. I wouldn't worry though. We all say that we'll be better parents than ours were. hehe
I know who I am and I know that I am not going to be like my parents in a lot of respects.

I respect his decision too, even though he made the wrong one.
Once again, in your opinion.

In your opinion. Not everyone may share that opinion though.

I don't control the facts of life. And I've learned these things from years of mistakes and observations. It happens everyone. Everywhere. If you spill yourself around your parents you're just giving them ammo and setting yourself up.

But if you disagree..we'll have to agree to disagree. But remember, I'm right ;) LOL

I know who I am and I know that I am not going to be like my parents in a lot of respects.

So says everyone. But when you get older and have kids, you just have to wait until they get old enough to hold a mirror up to you. And then - voila! You see what you've become, even though you did every possible thing to avoid it. It's a universal thing.

Once again, in your opinion

Okay, alright Dude :rolleyes: "In my opinion" :cool:

Originally posted by Elbaz
So says everyone. But when you get older and have kids, you just have to wait until they get old enough to hold a mirror up to you. And then - voila! You see what you've become, even though you did every possible thing to avoid it. It's a universal thing.

I guess we'll just see then! ;)

Originally posted by Ender
The whole deal about an Afterlife is very funny to me, and when people confront be about it i always ask them a question:

What was life like befor you were born? I don't mean the history, but for you personally, what do you remember from before you were born.

Then normally answer that they can't obviously, then I say that that is what life will be like after you die.
I really like that! I'll have to use that in future conversations with people about this issue!