Any of you guys ever feel your being moulded shaped changed and cloned to suit society,school,etc.?

at my school they are practically eradicating all indipendent thought and punish characters for being themselves

Any suggestions welcome

Impressive that at your age you're able to see this. It is the case, has always been, and will continue to be. You have to figure out how to remain true to yourself, while working within the system that would have otherwise. That's the trick.

yeah, well sometimes its hard. it really is

It is a two-way street, we individually impose on society, and society collectively imposes upon us.

Yeah, but it's not an *even* street.
When we were thrust into existence at birth, there was *already* society. We were just animals that got beaten and coerced into becoming members *of* society.
Society imposes much more upon us than we impose upon it.
Which means that society gains our strength, our production, and we become wage slaves, alienated from ourselves.
How *is* authenticity possible in modern society? Ahh, the great contemporary drama of our time...
"I didn't ask to be born!" :)

Society imposes much more upon us than we impose upon it.

Oh, I don't know about that! Sit down sometime and count the ways of one, versus the other.

Society gives us water, electricity, sewer, roads, cars, gasoline, food, housing, police protection/law enforcement, schools, jobs, ....the list goes on and on.

Now count up what you, as an individual, give to your society. I think you'll be surprised, and I hope pleasantly surprised.

In essense, I think we, as humans, have a much too large an ego for our own damned good! :)

Baron Max

"Society gives us water, electricity, sewer, roads, cars, gasoline, food, housing, police protection/law enforcement, schools, jobs, ....the list goes on and on.
Now count up what you, as an individual, give to your society."

That's exactly what I'm saying: the relationship between an individual and society *isn't* equal. Nor is it as simple as 'society gives me all the good things I have.'
I'm saying that all human social organizations impose its structure *and* its limitations upon the members of that society. The relationship of the individual to society *is* parasitic and that's precisely the problem.

We adopt our societies, integrate it into ourselves; we fashion the substance of our individuality from our family, from our culture. Society is nothing more than relationships between human beings. These relationships force us into certain roles which are loaded with a lot of cultural baggage that is often unnecessary but strictly enforced. Which means we lose something of what we originally were.

"Well, what would we have been without society?" The easy answer is: nothing, since it's the benefits of belonging to a society where literacy is important that's enabling me to ask this question.

Society exemplifies the imposition of order into human life. As such it is neither a good thing nor a bad thing. The important and interesting questino here is whether we are imposing order creatively (i.e., producing necessities like power, food) or doing so destructively (an unnecessary imposition of order.) I think most of the problems the human race suffers from is imposing order where it doesn't need to be imposed.

A destructive imposition of order is like what the original poster talked about, the systematic eradication of independent and critical thought (the so-called 'holocaust of words' Baudelaire and Sartre talk about.) We focus too much on the 'order/disorder' dichotomy and lose sight of the 'creation/destruction' dualism which is strictly broader than humanity or a human-oriented worldview. Society is an organic, evolving solution to the question of: how are freedom and order to be reconciled?

JoeTheMan:

Society imposes much more upon us than we impose upon it.

If we take each individual's impact on society, we find that collectively it is equal to the force exerted by society back. Moreover, society can do nothing to impel us to do a thing and we are free to accept or not accept society's influence.

Which means that society gains our strength, our production, and we become wage slaves, alienated from ourselves.

If one feels that one is not compensated rightfully, then one ought to follow the proper avenues for change of this.

How *is* authenticity possible in modern society? Ahh, the great contemporary drama of our time...

A definition of "authenticity" would be needed.

society may give us cars and other PHYSICAL goods, but it then tries to take away our
characeristics as a person, and drums out all indipendent thought

JoeTheMan:



If we take each individual's impact on society, we find that collectively it is equal to the force exerted by society back. Moreover, society can do nothing to impel us to do a thing and we are free to accept or not accept society's influence.



If one feels that one is not compensated rightfully, then one ought to follow the proper avenues for change of this.



A definition of "authenticity" would be needed.

and if we dont accept society we get put in prison :)

Non-Logical-Idea-Guy:

One can act against societal norms without being put into prison, moreover, one can simply accept prison sentence as the "price for one's freedom".

well... 1 day of freedom for years in prisondoesn't sound like a good price, maybe i will come back when the sales are on ;)

Non-Logical-Idea-Guy:

All in life has a price. Absolute and complete freedom has a price in this day which equals to prison or the death penalty.

Yes, this is called culture, and it's a very strong force in high schools. What you might need to do is form a counter-culture or reject all culture.

But with stuff like this, we're trapped in the dialectic. There's no room for synthesis since society completely encapsulates us (through language, through religion and politics, through the structure and vicissitudes of the market and of the means of production.) The substance of the individual is society; we are made up of bits and pieces of the cultures and behaviors to which we are exposed. Yet, we are certainly free to choose: we are able to influence and change society, since it is nothing other than relations between people. So society influences us and we influence society.

Our choice is always dichotomistic: whether to deviate or conform? This is not a needless reduction; we are either 'in' society's group or 'out' side of it, for any given belief, behavior or action. There is a corresponding microcosm culture and the counterculture in every action.

You can either go *with* the dominant trend or *against* the dominant trend. We cannot escape this dualism since our lives represent a dialectical movement between the individual and society.

Unless we find a synthesis between what society has been and what we as individuals think it should be.

at my school they are practically eradicating all indipendent thought and punish characters for being themselves


How are both of these things being done?

JoeTheMan:

Would you proclaim this reality is positive or negative?

You can either go *with* the dominant trend or *against* the dominant trend. We cannot escape this dualism ....

No, I think ye're wrong. For one thing, and the most important, is that you're talking in terms of extremes. I.e., all or nothing! And that's wrong in almost every sense of the issue. Most changes within a society begin as small, inconsequential things ...like a new fashion or such. I know of no change in a society that sprang forth full-blown and accepted overnight by everyone, do you?

So, you see, we can PARTIALLY conform, and PARTIALLY go against social norms and standards. And I'm sure that you can see that it's the way of most, if not all, changes in society.

Baron Max

Any of you guys ever feel your being moulded shaped changed and cloned to suit society,school,etc.?

at my school they are practically eradicating all indipendent thought and punish characters for being themselves

Any suggestions welcome

And how exactly does the school pressure you and why can't you stand it? They make you wear a uniform or something?

How exactly do you plan to differ so that you're afraid of being put in prison for it? What, you want to go around killing people and society won't let you?

Typical high-school "I'm teh uber uniqueness" thinking.

I read somewhere... I cant remember the exact wording, but its something like..

You can dress up in sheeps clothing, but how you act once youre dressed up is your decision.

Meaning basically you can conform to what everyone wants you to, but still retain your individuality, and wether you choose to continue to conform to how they think, or act on your own within the conformity defines your character.

I wish I could remember the exact wording.