View Full Version : Mental health stigma


Asguard
08-21-11, 10:01 PM
There was recently a discussion which touched on mental health stigma, i was asked to hold off posting this for 2 weeks and to post it in a new thread to alow everything to cool down so here it is.

However i cant help but bring up some of that discussion in order to show the very stigma this thread is about.


Personally I found Asguard's comments nauseating. Comparing himself to a girl born with schizophrenia, claiming they are somehow akin, then telling a cancer patient in remission that he would prefer to have cancer than depression

Firstly an observation, all chronic diseases are compared to either cancer or CVD in health litirture in terms of there morbidity, mortality and quality of life.

On this specifically why is she so offended? Acording to the ABS the leading causes of death in 2009 were:
1 Ischaemic heart diseases
2 Strokes
3 Dementia and Alzheimer disease
4 Trachea and lung cancer
5 Chronic lower respiratory diseases
6 Diabetes
7 Colon and rectum cancer
8 Blood and lymph cancer
9 Diseases of the kidney and urinary system
10 Heart failure
11 Prostate cancer
12 Breast cancer
13Pancreatic cancer
14Suicide


http://abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Products/B6940E9BF2695EE1CA25788400127B0A?opendocument


Ie Suicide ranks only 2 behind breast cancer in all deaths


Suicides:

Median age at death for males was 43.4 years, compared with 44.9 years for females.

http://abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Products/2BC6B190AFE618D2CA25788400127BBC?opendocument


However these results are inacuate (by there own admission 80-83 (http://abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Products/3303.0~2009~Explanatory+Notes~Explanatory+Notes?Op enDocument#271822221914994948). They dont even record deaths as suicde for under 15s because its so sensitive for coroners and familes and the statistics are likly to be higher in other groups

Compare this meadian age to that for cancer


The median age of persons dying from Malignant cancers (C00-C97) has continued to rise from 73.5 years in 2000 to 74.9 years in 2009. http://abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Products/5FDB7E9311DD7AD3CA25788400127B47?opendocument

The link between CVD and Mental illness is also strong


Depression And Cardiovascular Disease
ScienceDaily (Oct. 17, 2007) — Depression has long had a popular link to cardiovascular disease and death. However, only during the last 15 years scientific evidence supporting this common wisdom has been available (Glassman et al., 2007a). Since the early 1990s studies have reported prevalences of major depression between 17% and 27% in hospitalized patients with coronary artery disease (CAD) (Rudisch & Nemeroff, 2003).

...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071015131515.htm

I leave it to you to read about the 3 fold increase in mortality for people with depression following CVD and the other links explored in the artical

The following artical containes some interesting
statistics on Depression



•Up to 15% of those who are clinically depressed die by suicide.

http://www.allaboutdepression.com/gen_04.html

A 15% mortality rate by suicide alone ignoring the CVD


•In 1997, suicide was the 8th leading cause of death in the United States. 10.6 out of every 100,000 persons died by suicide. The total number of suicides was approximately 30,535.


This is higher up the list than in Australia and its not suprising concidering the avilability of guns



•Suicide by firearms is the most common method for both men and women, accounting for 58% of all suicides in 1997.


(Just to show my above point)


•Over the last several decades, the suicide rate in young people has increased dramatically. In 1997, suicide was the 3rd leading cause of death in 15 to 24 year olds-11.5 of every 100,000 persons-following unintentional injuries and homicide.
•The suicide rate among children 10 to 14 years old was 303 deaths among 19,040,000 children in this age group.
•For adolescents aged 15 to 19, there were 1,802 deaths among 19,068,000 adolescents. The gender ratio in this age group was 5:1 (males: females).
•Among young people 20 to 24 years of age, there were 2,384 deaths among 17,512,000 people in this age group. The gender ratio in this age group was 7:1 (males: females).


The third leading cause of death, acidents, homicide and then suicide.

As far as disease burden is concerned


Major depression is currently the leading cause of disease burden in North America and other high-income countries, and the fourth-leading cause worldwide. In the year 2030, it is predicted to be the second-leading cause of disease burden worldwide after HIV, according to the World Health Organizationhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder#Prognosis




The three leading causes of burden of disease in 2030 are projected to include HIV/AIDS, unipolar depressive disorders, and ischaemic heart disease in the baseline and pessimistic scenarios

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1664601/

So we have delt with the Mortality rates which show clearly that far from being "a bit down" or even equivilant to a broken arm or relitivily minor injury depression and other mental illness are serious, potentually FATAL conditions which are well justified being treated as seriously as cancer. It has a much lower median age for fatilities than does cancer.

In the case of quality of life


Conclusions: Thus, what already had been reported based on the objective assessment of quality of life, namely that depression implies a persisting impairment of social functioning and living conditions, can be replicated to some extent from the point of view of the patients themselves.

http://isp.sagepub.com/content/48/3/189.abstract



CONCLUSIONS—Depression for those with diabetes is an important comorbidity that requires careful management because of its severe impact on quality of life.

http://www.hqlo.com/content/3/1/1
This (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110105071153.htm) artical even found that the quality of life of children was effected by there mothers depression.

But what really is depression? Is it feeling a bit sad? is it feeling down after being diognosed with an illness?


Symptoms and signs Major depression significantly affects a person's family and personal relationships, work or school life, sleeping and eating habits, and general health.[5] Its impact on functioning and well-being has been equated to that of chronic medical conditions such as diabetes.[6]

A person having a major depressive episode usually exhibits a very low mood, which pervades all aspects of life, and an inability to experience pleasure in activities that were formerly enjoyed. Depressed people may be preoccupied with, or ruminate over, thoughts and feelings of worthlessness, inappropriate guilt or regret, helplessness, hopelessness, and self-hatred.[7] In severe cases, depressed people may have symptoms of psychosis. These symptoms include delusions or, less commonly, hallucinations, usually unpleasant.[8] Other symptoms of depression include poor concentration and memory (especially in those with melancholic or psychotic features),[9] withdrawal from social situations and activities, reduced sex drive, and thoughts of death or suicide.

Insomnia is common among the depressed. In the typical pattern, a person wakes very early and cannot get back to sleep,[10] but insomnia can also include difficulty falling asleep.[11] Insomnia affects at least 80% of depressed people.[11] Hypersomnia, or oversleeping, can also happen,[10] affecting 15% of depressed people.[11] Some antidepressants may also cause insomnia due to their stimulating effect.[12]

A depressed person may report multiple physical symptoms such as fatigue, headaches, or digestive problems; physical complaints are the most common presenting problem in developing countries, according to the World Health Organization's criteria for depression.[13] Appetite often decreases, with resulting weight loss, although increased appetite and weight gain occasionally occur.[7] Family and friends may notice that the person's behavior is either agitated or lethargic.[10]

In children Although it is common for most children and teenagers to feel down or sad sometimes, a smaller number of youth experience a more severe phenomenon known as depression. Such young people, who are often described as "clinically" depressed, feel sad, hopeless, or irritable for weeks or even months at a time. They may lose interest in activities that they used to enjoy (e.g., playing with friends); their sleeping and eating habits often change (i.e., they may eat or sleep either more or less than usual); and they may have trouble thinking or paying attention, even to TV programs or games.[14] Depressed children may often display an irritable mood rather than a depressed mood,[7] and show varying symptoms depending on age and situation.[15] Most lose interest in school and show a decline in academic performance. They may be described as clingy, demanding, dependent, or insecure.[10] Diagnosis may be delayed or missed when symptoms are interpreted as normal moodiness.[7] Depression may also coexist with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), complicating the diagnosis and treatment of both.[16]

Of particular concern, youths who are clinically depressed may think or talk a lot about death and some depressed children have more specific thoughts about hurting or killing themselves. Often children and teenagers may have similar symptoms when they are grieving the loss of someone close to them. In clinical depression, however, these thoughts and feelings tend to appear even when the child has not experienced a loss or a sad event.[17]

In the elderly Older depressed people may have cognitive symptoms of recent onset, such as forgetfulness,[9] and a more noticeable slowing of movements.[18] Depression often coexists with physical disorders common among the elderly, such as stroke, other cardiovascular diseases, Parkinson's disease, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder

There are depressed people who are so depressed they are catatonic, others who have alzimhers symptoms but rather than being dementia related its caused by the depression. Scizophrenia may well be the most "impressive" mental illness and im sure her parents arnt exagurating in saying they are trying to fight to be herd over the voices but because depression isnt as impressive doesnt make it any less debilitating. Try fighting that voice in your head the whole time saying "you a worthless, why do you bother doing anything you are just going to fail, its a waste of time, you just hurt everyone you care about, they would be better off if you were dead, the whole world would be better without you, at least then x could find someone who makes her happy, you will make a crap father, why dont you just step in front of a car, it will look like an acident, everyone will be better off, why dont you do it, stab yourself with that knife and everyone will be betetr off ect ect" in your head day in day out for 10 years. Constantly you are swiming against this trying to make YOURSELF herd. Some days i have sat for hours with a knife held between my ribs wondering how much it would hurt, or on my wrists, wondering if i had the corage to do it, the "voice" (i put that in quote marks to distinguish it from a halucination) abusing me for not even having the guts to do that properly.

So now we move onto stigma


Introduction
Mental illness attracts less empathy and more distrust than other forms of illness. People may consciously or unconsciously blame the people with mental illness for their condition, implying a character flaw rather than a disorder. Another misconception is that mental illness is a "life sentence" with no chance of recovery. Some people believe that those with mental illness are unable to contribute to society: that they cannot work, study, be good parents, or take on other roles. In fact, the experience of mental illness varies widely in terms of symptoms, treatment and life impact. Some people experience only a single episode. Others have an illness in which episodes recur and they need ongoing management and treatment, but some will be well much of the time.

One of the keys to effective treatment and management is early identification of mental health problems. Negative stereotypes deter people from acknowledging the early signs of mental health problems in themselves or a loved one. Many people do not seek help until symptoms are pronounced and there has been considerable disruption to their lives.

As a journalist, be aware of your own values and assumptions about mental illness and other contentious issues. Because this is a complex area and people have varying experiences, make sure that your research is thorough and that you know the details of any specific case, rather than relying on popular ideas about mental illness.

Public attitudes and awareness
Over the years, many forms of discrimination have declined in our society, although there is still room for improvement in many areas. It has become socially and legally unacceptable in most settings to discriminate against or ridicule someone on the basis of their race, religion, sexuality or a physical disability. While the stigma associated with a number of health and social issues has gradually improved, there is still considerable stigma associated with mental illness.

Mental illness often generates misunderstanding, prejudice, confusion and fear. Some people with mental illness report that the stigma can at times be worse than the illness itself. People may be less willing to offer support and empathy if someone is experiencing a mental illness rather than a physical health problem. Those with a history of mental illness may find that others become uncomfortable or distrustful around them and that they lose contact with family and friends. People who are known to have had mental illness may find it more difficult to find employment or get a promotion, even if they are well at the time.

Some studies have suggested that certain disorders attract greater stigma and prejudice than others. A study in the United Kingdom found that schizophrenia, alcoholism and drug addiction attracted the most negative ratings among the public, with a high proportion of respondents saying that people with these disorders were unpredictable and dangerous. A significant proportion of respondents reported that people with severe depression could simply 'pull themselves together', reflecting a very negative and inaccurate view of this disorder.

Stigma may stop people from seeking help when they experience mental health difficulties. Those who become concerned about the mental health of themselves or someone they're close to may be reluctant to talk to others about the situation. Often people do not want to acknowledge their need for support or simply don’t know how to raise the issue with family, friends or health professionals. This is a serious problem, since early identification and treatment is generally associated with better outcomes.

Stigma may be linked to poor understanding of an issue and being unable to relate to the experiences of those who are affected. We are more likely to empathise with a person if we understand something about their circumstances and feelings. Our society has a long history of people distancing themselves from those with mental illness, by social isolation and by institutionalisation. This distance ensures that most members of the public do not become familiar with the real experiences of those living with mental illness.

Understanding mental illness
While the importance of information about physical health is widely acknowledged, society's understanding of mental health and mental illness is far less comprehensive. Many people do not distinguish between the terms mental health and mental illness. A person with good mental health has the capacity to participate in and enjoy activities and relationships, cope with challenges such as personal problems and work toward achieving their goals. Mental health is about balance in our thoughts, feelings, behaviour and relationships with others.
A mental illness is a severe or prolonged disruption in these, which has a negative impact on our normal lifestyle. Research has shown that most people can not correctly recognise mental disorders and do not understand the meaning of psychiatric terms. Most do not appreciate that there are many different disorders under the broad category of mental illness.

Stereotypes
There are a number of negative stereotypes of the people with mental illness, arising perhaps from unusual behaviour in some people when they are unwell. We tend to feel uncomfortable when a person's behaviour does not conform to social expectations. Because those with a mental illness can experience disruption of their normal thoughts and feelings, their behaviour may seem odd, annoying or unpredictable. People sometimes fear that those with mental illness may become violent, although research shows that only a small proportion of people with mental illness are prone to violence toward others. Violence is more strongly associated with drug and alcohol use than with mental illness.

Some people may - consciously or unconsciously - blame people with mental illness for their disease, implying that the illness indicates a weakness or character flaw. Many do not realise that mental disorders are frequently associated with an underlying biological or genetic factor; there is an interaction between genetics, lifestyle and environment. This is also true of a number of other diseases - including diabetes, asthma and heart disease - which are associated with much less discrimination and blame than mental illness.
Another misconception is that a mental illness represents a lifelong disorder, with little chance of recovery. In fact, many people experience only one episode of a mental illness - such as depression or a psychotic disorder - and then recover. Some people have an illness which recurs during their life, but many are well much of the time and the illness can often be managed successfully.

Like others in our community, people with mental illness may wish to pursue study, work opportunities or personal interests. Mental illness should not be equated with reduced intellectual capacity or ability. People with recurrent illness (of any type) may need time off from work or school occasionally. Others may be unable to work or choose not to work, but as a society we should avoid assumptions about those with mental illness. Discrimination against a person on the basis of a disability - physical or psychiatric - is not acceptable.

Some people retain the idea that those with mental illness should be separated from the rest of society in an institutional setting. Isolating people with a mental illness may sometimes add to their distress and certainly perpetuates social distance and community distrust. With increasing knowledge of mental illness, there are now a range of treatment and support options. Most people remain at home or have only short hospital stays and many will have only one or a few episodes of illness in a lifetime.

Reducing stigma
Reducing stigma requires community education and willingness among individuals to challenge others when discrimination occurs, or when negative stereotypes are used to describe those who have mental illness. Public education campaigns have been run through the media, to challenge the stigma associated with mental illness. Strategies have also been developed to ensure that journalists have access to accurate, up-to-date information so that reports will not unintentionally reinforce negative stereotypes (see www.mindframe-media.info).

As individuals, we can also challenge stigma by discouraging the use of negative language or stereotypes. Words like 'psycho' or 'schizo' have negative connotations and are usually used inaccurately or as terms of derision. They trivialise the impact of a serious illness. We can also challenge people's misconceptions of mental illness, by gently pointing out the facts - that mental illness is quite common, that recovery and management are possible and that people are not to blame for their illness.

References
Crisp, A. H., Gelders, M. G., Rix, S., Meltzer, H. I. and Rowlands, O. J. (2000). Stigmatisation of people with mental illnesses. British Journal of Psychiatry, 177, 4-7.

Hayward, P., & Bright, J. A. (1997). Stigma and mental illness: A review and critique. Journal of Mental Health, 6, 345-354.

Hocking, B. (2002). Reducing mental illness stigma and discrimination - everybody's business. Schizophrenia Supplement, 78, S47 - S48.

Jorm, A. F. (2000). Mental health literacy: Public knowledge and beliefs about mental disorders. British Journal of Psychiatry, 177, 396-401.

Noffsinger, S. G., & Resnick, P. J. (1999). Violence and mental illness. Current Opinion in Psychiatry, 12, 683-687.

Torrey, E. F. (1994). Violent behaviour by individuals with serious mental illness. Hospital and Community Psychiatry 45, 653-662.

http://www.responseability.org/site/index.cfm?display=134896

So how did that other thread answer chimpkin question?



“ Have a look through the web and you see there is a mountain of anger towards this child and her parents ”

WHY!?!?!



Well quite easerly, bells's out rage because i said i would rather have cancer than depression which i have lived with for at least 10 years now, going in and out of remission but never gone for good shows exactly the attitude this:


. People may consciously or unconsciously blame the people with mental illness for their condition, implying a character flaw rather than a disorder.

refers to.

At this point i want to move over to a remark bells made which is getting under my skin, i never said that "if i wanted to do it properly i would use differnt pills". I DID want to die, i tried my best TO die, i even scraped up the pills i vomited back up and swollowed them again SO i would die. I didnt know what i was doing so i picked the wrong pills, i used what were a quite mild seditive when the SSRIs themselves would have worked well. I told this to show how hard it really is to kill yourself.

As far as jumping in front of a train, fear of pain is one of the most common reasons for suicidle pts "chosing" the paticular methods they do. I tried to cut my wrists but it hurt to much. If i had a gun i would have used that but i didnt have access. Jumping in front of a train (in my mind) would cause me alot of pain and also traumitise the train driver.

And yet you mock me for that, you remind me of bob katter mocking gay marriage.

Anyway enough of that, back onto the stigma


. Some people with mental illness report that the stigma can at times be worse than the illness itself.People may be less willing to offer support and empathy if someone is experiencing a mental illness rather than a physical health problem. Those with a history of mental illness may find that others become uncomfortable or distrustful around them and that they lose contact with family and friends. People who are known to have had mental illness may find it more difficult to find employment or get a promotion, even if they are well at the time.



http://www.responseability.org/site/index.cfm?display=134896

That artical is correct, i made the mestake when i was first diognosed of being honest with my boss as to why i needed time off. He fired me not long after that because I "might go mental in the kitchen". The disease itself makes me feel paranoid and self concious and when its actually reflected back its even worse. I avioded seeing my shrink for 6 months because i was afraid of what she would think if i told her i had relapsed. My family and friends? forget it. If your lucky you might get sympathy\empathy for the imidiate inital illness, but after that the comments become "why arnt you better?" "Pull yourself together" ect.

There is one other thing which i havent touched on with regard to stigma yet and thats the attitude displayed by PsychoTropicPuppy's posts, ie compleate denial. Scientology is the most extreem example of this sadly.

Bells
08-21-11, 11:32 PM
There was recently a discussion which touched on mental health stigma, i was asked to hold off posting this for 2 weeks and to post it in a new thread to alow everything to cool down so here it is.

However i cant help but bring up some of that discussion in order to show the very stigma this thread is about.



Firstly an observation, all chronic diseases are compared to either cancer or CVD in health litirture in terms of there morbidity, mortality and quality of life.

On this specifically why is she so offended? Acording to the ABS the leading causes of death in 2009 were:
1 Ischaemic heart diseases
2 Strokes
3 Dementia and Alzheimer disease
4 Trachea and lung cancer
5 Chronic lower respiratory diseases
6 Diabetes
7 Colon and rectum cancer
8 Blood and lymph cancer
9 Diseases of the kidney and urinary system
10 Heart failure
11 Prostate cancer
12 Breast cancer
13Pancreatic cancer
14Suicide


http://abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Products/B6940E9BF2695EE1CA25788400127B0A?opendocument


Ie Suicide ranks only 2 behind breast cancer in all deaths

[Etc..]

In other words, you are offended that I told you your depression is not comparable to a child born with schizophrenia and suffering from severe psychosis as a result of her disease?


So how did that other thread answer chimpkin question?

Which you have taken completely out of context.. Why didn't you post my whole response (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2798655&postcount=31) to Chimpkin's question Asguard?




Whaddya gonna do with someone who's both that sick and that injured?

I don't think anyone actually knows (http://www.the-signal.com/archives/23420/)..


Some of Jani Schofield's friends don't like her little brother, Bodhi.

Sometimes they tell her to hurt Bodhi. And sometimes - even when she doesn't want to - she listens.

If she doesn't, Four Hundred the cat might scratch her, or Wednesday the rat might bite her.

One day, without warning, 7-year-old Jani started to gnaw on the toddler as if to eat him. Tears streaming from her eyes, she repeated, "I'm going to eat you, Bodhi. Bye, bye, Bodhi. I love you."


Her parents then say that they have to acknowledge her hallucinations, and at times compete with them.

To help her parents and her, pschology students (http://articles.glendalenewspress.com/2010-01-25/news/gnp-psychology012510_1_hallucinations-psychology-animal-shelters) spend time with her, keeping her occupied at all times and also studying her. But most importantly, it allows her to remain under constant supervision and keeps her mentally stimulated at all times to keep her happy.

Have a look through the web and you see there is a mountain of anger towards this child and her parents.. Some who think she's full of it, others who think the parents are and are exploiting her, some who deem her to be sick because she has been abused, it goes on and on..

There is little help for her because of the nature of her disease.


Do you know what bothers me about you Asguard? Your inherent dishonesty and your need to complain and compare. You suffer from depression. Okay. That does not mean you can demand people to take you seriously when you try to claim that you and a child born with schizophrenia and constantly psychotic are somewhat the same.


Well quite easerly, bells's out rage because i said i would rather have cancer than depression which i have lived with for at least 10 years now, going in and out of remission but never gone for good shows exactly the attitude this:


I never once said that depression is something that should be ignored or taken lightly. What I did tell you was that your depression cannot be compared to a girl who was born with schizophrenia. They are not comparable. You also made the claim that you would rather have cancer than suffer from depression because then people would take you more seriously.. I find statements such as that to be selfish, idiotic and frankly, ridiculous. I have been battling the disease for the last year and yes, it brought on severe depression. It also caused depression in my husband and abject fear for my children. For you to selfishly claim that you would rather 'get cancer' than depression so people would be nicer to you.. yes, it made me angry.


At this point i want to move over to a remark bells made which is getting under my skin, i never said that "if i wanted to do it properly i would use differnt pills". I DID want to die, i tried my best TO die, i even scraped up the pills i vomited back up and swollowed them again SO i would die. I didnt know what i was doing so i picked the wrong pills, i used what were a quite mild seditive when the SSRIs themselves would have worked well. I told this to show how hard it really is to kill yourself.

As far as jumping in front of a train, fear of pain is one of the most common reasons for suicidle pts "chosing" the paticular methods they do. I tried to cut my wrists but it hurt to much. If i had a gun i would have used that but i didnt have access. Jumping in front of a train (in my mind) would cause me alot of pain and also traumitise the train driver.

And yet you mock me for that, you remind me of bob katter mocking gay marriage.

Anyway enough of that, back onto the stigma
Again, taken completely out of context and you appear to have me mixed up with another poster.

You suffer from depression. You are fully aware of your illness and I would expect that you are seeking professional help for said illness. In other words, there is help there for you. For the child being discussed in the other thread, there is no help out there for her. Her parents and caregivers are simply trying to keep her alive (ie not kill herself because the animal voices in her head told her to). But prior to developing depression, you had the chance to develop your personality and understand the complexities of life before a lot of it was weighed down by the depression. This girl never had that chance. Now, you attempted to claim that you and this child are somewhat akin, because you both suffer form a mental illness. My comment to you was that your disease cannot compare to hers. It does not make your illness less serious. It just means that you cannot compare to a child born with schizophrenia.

You suffer from depression. So do millions of other people, myself included. Don't whine because I told you the illness is not akin to a child born with schizophrenia who tries to kill herself and those around her because the psychotic voices in her head tells her to.

wynn
08-22-11, 03:53 AM
That artical is correct, i made the mestake when i was first diognosed of being honest with my boss as to why i needed time off. He fired me not long after that because I "might go mental in the kitchen". The disease itself makes me feel paranoid and self concious and when its actually reflected back its even worse. I avioded seeing my shrink for 6 months because i was afraid of what she would think if i told her i had relapsed. My family and friends? forget it. If your lucky you might get sympathy\empathy for the imidiate inital illness, but after that the comments become "why arnt you better?" "Pull yourself together" ect.

It should be noted that people tend to have this kind of attitude toward all problems that other people have.

For example, if someone has financial or academic problems - sooner or later, some people will say "Pull yourself together" or "Get over it" and such.

There are many people who also expect cancer patients to get better and who hold it against them if they don't.
Even amputees and paraplegics are often expected to "Pull yourself together" or "Get over it" and such.

I, and probably many others, agree with your former boss. A depressed person is a liability. Just like someone with diabetes or epilepsy or numerous other diseases.

Recognizing that a sick person is a liability is not a stigma. It's merely a recognition of a fact - namely the fact that a sick person is a liability.

How much of a liability depends on many factors.
For example, a nurse with HIV that works in a busy ER is a serious liability. If that same person were to work in a laboratory, they would be much less of a liability.


If anything, it is some of the people who have a "mental illness" who are making it a stigma.
They do so by expecting others to go an extra mile for them - while not offering anything in return.

chimpkin
08-22-11, 04:59 AM
Yes, I know I'm a liability, or at least will be viewed as such...

That's why no matter how suicidal I get I do not go to the hospital, I do not talk about it, I do not take time off of work. Because if I lose my job I may not get another one and I get ten times worse. This pretty much guarantees that no matter how much of a threat I am to myself I personally will stay out of the hospital.

And if I end up offing myself because I did not go I no longer care anymore. It's not like I'm going to do anything with my life anyway, I'm just killing time here until I die of natural causes.

Enmos
08-22-11, 05:19 AM
For example, if someone has financial or academic problems - sooner or later, some people will say "Pull yourself together" or "Get over it" and such.

That is because people with big problems that wallow in self-pity tend to try and make them yours. They don't care about you or anyone else, they only care about themselves. After a while you find that they are sucking the life out of you.
Of course you try to talk to them and help whatever way you can but often times they prove incapable of accepting help and just continue sucking the life out of you.
At some point you have to protect yourself.


I'm just killing time here until I die of natural causes.
Hey, we all are ;)

The Marquis
08-22-11, 06:44 AM
Ok.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... I personally do not give a damn about your personal cases. They may be genuine, they may not. At the very least, they're all going to be genuine for you.

What you need to understand, though, is that in spite of your little woe-is-me chapters, you don't prove a damn thing about trends and averages... and least of all, root cause. This is not (or should not be) a thread about the Most Depressed Member of Sciforums, as if there is a prize for being the worst afflicted. Neither was the initial thread, incidentally, until someone or someones tried to make it about themselves.
You want to do that, start a little poll and put it to the vote. Start a user group and call it the Wailing Wall or something.Then you can all join up, moan about life to each other all you like, and you won't bother anyone.

So. Let's get to Asguard.

Firstly, you're still trying to compare depression (specifically, yours) to someone suffering from cancer. It's disgusting. Seriously.

Well quite easerly, bells's out rage because i said i would rather have cancer than depression which i have lived with for at least 10 years now, going in and out of remission but never gone for good shows exactly the attitude this:
I'm quite annoyed you left me out of it, you know. Any particular reason, lad?
This, you little mollusc, is quite possibly the most ridiculous piece of self indulgent tripe I have read here for some time. And believe me, that's saying quite a lot.
30% (rough figure) of cancer sufferers don't even make it past five years, let alone ten. And that in many cases is because they'll cut bits of you out, or off. I suppose there isn't too much point into going too far into what the loss of some pertinent parts of the anatomy might do to someone's mental health. I doubt you're capable of thinking that far ahead.

Frankly, I'm with your boss. You quoted his stated reason for sacking you. Maybe he even said that. But you'll find that, in the main, most employers are fairly understanding and reasonable people, and try to help out when you have a problem. If you have value to them, they'll try to keep you and will make allowances when things go bad.
That he dismissed you so easily might point to something else; that he just didn't like you very much, or you didn't have much value and he leaped on the excuse. Honestly, from what I've seen of you here.... he might be a complete arsehole as you say, but I'm with him on this one.
Besides which, no employer should be forced to retain a liability. That, though, is a whole different topic of discussion.

Secondly. You've made a huge effort here to gather the numbers, the statistics and the evidence to point out that depression is becoming an epidemic. Furthermore, you've made the point of your thread ostensibly about suicide, linked to depression. You've linked several articles in support of your position that depression is a seriously misunderstood disease in terms of effect. All well and good... other than the fact you don't seem to have been able to avoid having a whine while you were at it.

Except neither Bells nor myself actually said that it wasn't a problem, nor that it wasn't widespread.

In fact, you've rather carefully avoided the statistics I mentioned which state that suicide, particularly when linked to depression, is far less common in migrants to Australia (or any first world nation) who come from less privileged backgrounds. In fact, migrants (and many other cultures in general) are less likely to commit suicide altogether, even taking into account those who go boom in the name of Allah.

This would be evidence of something you'd rather not think about; namely, that depression and suicide might be linked to a cultural influence. You've gone to great lengths to point out the facts and the figures; and there are few who would dispute those on pure basis of numbers. The dispute, and this is linked to your premise of stigma, is the cause and the real incidence of depression (and by extension, suicide).

As I alluded to in another post somewhere - is this a white boy thing? Do Caucasians happen to carry around certain genes making them more susceptible? Because if you're trying to tell us it's an actual disease, as opposed to a mental condition, then the future of the Caucasian seems to be on somewhat shaky ground.

If it is a mental condition, then there is one major factor in play.
Society.

I'm in two minds as to how far I want to go into that. It's rather... large. And frankly, I doubt you and most others here would even begin to understand the influences at play. I'm certainly not Tiassa, and this post is wearing me out already.
Suffice to say, there are a large percentage of those suffering from "depression" who actually talk themselves into it and are their own worst enemy. The medical profession isn't helping with that.

Now if you really don't like what people are telling you, then feel free to go stick your head in the sand. You seem to be somewhat a master at it. Put me on ignore or something like some others threaten to.

It's always easier to ignore a harsh truth than to confront it.
Maybe a stigma isn't completely to blame for what you've experienced at the hands of others.
Maybe it's you.

chimpkin
08-22-11, 08:38 AM
As I alluded to in another post somewhere - is this a white boy thing? Do Caucasians happen to carry around certain genes making them more susceptible? Because if you're trying to tell us it's an actual disease, as opposed to a mental condition, then the future of the Caucasian seems to be on somewhat shaky ground.

http://www.ourweekly.com/issues-archive/african-american-males-and-suicide-changing-attitudes-require-new-look



“We do have some of the lowest suicide (rates among the races),” Barnes said. “But suicide of African Americans increased substantially by about 200 percent in some age groups in the 1980’s and 1990s.”(bolding mine)

Black males are at particular risk. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, suicide is the third cause of death among African American males between ages 15 and 24, behind homicide and accidents.

As far as who is the most depressed member of sciforums...

http://psychcentral.com/cgi-bin/depression.cgi
I guess we could all find out. :shrug:

Anybody with a mental health issue that isn't sick enough to get disability gets to struggle with one more thing that nobody else does...and sometime that one other thing takes all you have to deal with and still function.
I guess it's frustrating to also be looked down on as fakes, whiners, drains, liabilities, weak straws...indeed, not fit to live by some people...when doing one's best to bear up under something exquisitely painful.

Now I'm not Asguard and I relate to this differently...I have no idea if cancer is harder. I rather suspect it is. When I get there I'll tell you.

I can tell you I'd rather have a simple fracture than be as depressed as I am right now...because I have had a simple fracture.

a compound fracture is about the same as major depression...well, maybe a little easier...again, I have had the experience, I can compare.
Car wreck versus major depression? if we're talking a duration of more than 6 months, the depression is going to screw my life worse...say that from either wrecking or getting nailed in six cars.
Bad back? I have that, way easier to deal with.
It's why self-injury's turned into a coping skill for me, physical pain is experienced as less, and gets rid of the emotional pain...in fact, I imagine I get an endorphin release...so it allows me to feel better.

I did not and will not have kids because, among other reasons, Major Depression is very transmissible. Kids would have given me a better reason to live. Just as well, I suppose.

Bells
08-22-11, 09:40 AM
http://www.ourweekly.com/issues-archive/african-american-males-and-suicide-changing-attitudes-require-new-look



As far as who is the most depressed member of sciforums...

http://psychcentral.com/cgi-bin/depression.cgi
I guess we could all find out. :shrug:
Actually, if we are to look at America..

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/images/f_ten.gif



[CDC suicide rates by ethnicity between 2002-2006] (http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/rates02.html)


Which is supported at other sites as well.. (scroll down to 2005 (http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html)) So what is causing it? What is driving such a large portion of the male population to suicide?


As for who is the most depressed member.. I don't think it should be a competition, do you? This need to be the sickest.. I don't understand that. And I don't want to understand it. I can only hope Asguard takes his issues to his psychiatrist.

wynn
08-22-11, 10:02 AM
Maybe a stigma isn't completely to blame for what you've experienced at the hands of others.
Maybe it's you.

Depression can co-occur with many other problems:


Major depression frequently co-occurs with other psychiatric problems. The 1990–92 National Comorbidity Survey (US) reports that 51% of those with major depression also suffer from lifetime anxiety.[251] Anxiety symptoms can have a major impact on the course of a depressive illness, with delayed recovery, increased risk of relapse, greater disability and increased suicide attempts.[252] American neuroendocrinologist Robert Sapolsky similarly argues that the relationship between stress, anxiety, and depression could be measured and demonstrated biologically.[253] There are increased rates of alcohol and drug abuse and particularly dependence,[254] and around a third of individuals diagnosed with ADHD develop comorbid depression.[255] Post-traumatic stress disorder and depression often co-occur.[5]

Depression and pain often co-occur, especially if it is chronic or uncontrollable pain[citation needed]. This conforms with Seligman's theory of learned helplessness. One or more pain symptoms is present in 65% of depressed patients, and anywhere from five to 85% of patients with pain will be suffering from depression, depending on the setting; there is a lower prevalence in general practice, and higher in specialty clinics. The diagnosis of depression is often delayed or missed, and the outcome worsens. The outcome can also obviously worsen if the depression is noticed but completely misunderstood[256]

Depression is also associated with a 1.5- to 2-fold increased risk of cardiovascular disease, independent of other known risk factors, and is itself linked directly or indirectly to risk factors such as smoking and obesity. People with major depression are less likely to follow medical recommendations for treating cardiovascular disorders, which further increases their risk. In addition, cardiologists may not recognize underlying depression that complicates a cardiovascular problem under their care.[257]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder#Comorbidity

Related to depression and anxiety, two are interesting, from the social perspective:

Dependent personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependent_personality_disorder)

Avoidant personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder)

Surely some depressed people can recognize their symptoms in these two disorders.

Bells
08-22-11, 10:06 AM
Anybody with a mental health issue that isn't sick enough to get disability gets to struggle with one more thing that nobody else does...and sometime that one other thing takes all you have to deal with and still function.
I guess it's frustrating to also be looked down on as fakes, whiners, drains, liabilities, weak straws...indeed, not fit to live by some people...when doing one's best to bear up under something exquisitely painful.
No one is denying any of this. Absolutely no one.


Now I'm not Asguard and I relate to this differently...I have no idea if cancer is harder. I rather suspect it is. When I get there I'll tell you.

I can tell you I'd rather have a simple fracture than be as depressed as I am right now...because I have had a simple fracture.

a compound fracture is about the same as major depression...well, maybe a little easier...again, I have had the experience, I can compare.
Car wreck versus major depression? if we're talking a duration of more than 6 months, the depression is going to screw my life worse...say that from either wrecking or getting nailed in six cars.
Bad back? I have that, way easier to deal with.
It's why self-injury's turned into a coping skill for me, physical pain is experienced as less, and gets rid of the emotional pain...in fact, I imagine I get an endorphin release...so it allows me to feel better.

I did not and will not have kids because, among other reasons, Major Depression is very transmissible. Kids would have given me a better reason to live. Just as well, I suppose.

The point is, you cannot really compare.

I will use myself as an example. I was diagnosed with cancer, had surgery, chemo, radiation therapy.. and I crashed. Mentally and physically. And it was a daily struggle to not give up. Then came more cancer and more treatment and more surgery, more physical pain and more time to lie down and think about what could have been, going further and further down mentally and physically.. meanwhile my husband couldn't cope and withdrew entirely, which caused me to go further downhill mentally. Meanwhile, I live with the knowledge that I could very well be dead in 2 years time, not by my own hand, but by cancer.... there is no choice here.. It could come back. This lurking causes me to delve further into a mental hell.. The doubts.. the fear for my children, the guilt over having had children and possibly leaving them without a mother as they grow up even though when I became pregnant, I did not have cancer.. It is a personal disease that cannot be described, not mentally anyway.

And I look at Asguard saying 'I'd rather have cancer' and yes, it upsets me. Cancer isn't trivial. It is not something that one should wish for or desire, especially for selfish reasons. One does not tell a cancer patient 'oh you're so lucky you got cancer, I got depression, so much rather have cancer'.. That kind of desire for any disease does my head in. It angers me. And his reasoning is so that people would be kinder to him. I mean what? Fucking seriously?

And having suffered both and still suffering, I can't compare. I would never say I'd rather have one over the other. And I would never say 'well I'm sicker than you are'.. etc.. I am not comparing myself to Asguard, nor would I compare my illness to his. There is no comparison to make. One is not more valid than the other. I didn't read the article about January and think 'oh I'm so lucky I only had cancer'. All I could think was 'that poor child and her parents'.. There is no comparison.

I find Asguard's attitude to be selfish and ghoulish.. this need to be recognised as being sickest. Fine.. he wants to be the sickest.. fine, he can be. Feel proud Asguard, you are the sickest one out of all of us.

wynn
08-22-11, 10:07 AM
I can only hope Asguard takes his issues to his psychiatrist.

Or psychologist. A psychiatrist may not be the right address in this case.


If Asguard also has DPD, then a different course of therapy may be required than the one he has had so far.

wynn
08-22-11, 10:30 AM
That is because people with big problems that wallow in self-pity tend to try and make them yours. They don't care about you or anyone else, they only care about themselves. After a while you find that they are sucking the life out of you.
Of course you try to talk to them and help whatever way you can but often times they prove incapable of accepting help and just continue sucking the life out of you.
At some point you have to protect yourself.

I agree, and I also think that this phenomenon is quite complex.

People with big problems may have unhelpful ideas about what it would take for them to get better.

Some of them think that other people approving of them or being kind to them is key to themselves getting better.

We all depend on and need the approval and kindness of others to some extent.
But some people make a point of asking for approval and kindness and expecting them. This is when it gets slippery.

visceral_instinct
08-22-11, 01:20 PM
And I look at Asguard saying 'I'd rather have cancer' and yes, it upsets me. Cancer isn't trivial. It is not something that one should wish for or desire, especially for selfish reasons. One does not tell a cancer patient 'oh you're so lucky you got cancer, I got depression, so much rather have cancer'.. That kind of desire for any disease does my head in. It angers me. And his reasoning is so that people would be kinder to him. I mean what? Fucking seriously?


I wouldn't go as far as preferring cancer over mental illness, but if I had to pick a physical illness that people understood vs a mental illness that meant people blamed you and cut you no slack, I'd probably go with the physical one.

scheherazade
08-22-11, 01:51 PM
Whether one has a physical or a mental disability, society cannot help but measure such as a liability to the whole in terms of cost to treat and maintain and the loss of human resources directly and indirectly.

The degree of discomfort and suffering to the individual afflicted is impossible to measure accurately, IMO. Physical affliction is perhaps a bit easier for others to relate to than is psychological illness would be the only observation I can offer here.

In all cases, if one is lucky enough to be in moderately good health, one should enjoy it while they can and perhaps be aware that not all are so fortunate. :bugeye:

chimpkin
08-22-11, 04:03 PM
I've linked this before.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/2010/10/20/being-suicidal-what-it-feels-like-to-want-to-kill-yourself/


A large body of evidence,” writes the author, “is consistent with the view that suicide is preceded by events that fall short of high standards and expectations, whether produced by past achievements, chronically favorable circumstances, or external demands.”

So an economically-motivated immigrant to another country...form their perspective...flush plumbing! only working 12 hours a day! a day off!
What luxury!

From the perspective of someone with depression who was born into that culture:
" I don't have a degree, I don't have a good job, my relatives keep having to bail me out, I can't do anything right, I'm a burden, a f***up, I really need to kill myself for the good of everyone around me...they think it would be bad, but it's really all for the best...."
Please note...quoting pretty much verbatim from my own head there...

It's not like I like depending on others...I hate it, it frightens me. Life experience shows me that to depend on others is to ask to be hurt. I loathe myself with a passion for needing anything from anybody, really.

So, it's not that we Westerners are spoiled so much as we expect a lot out of ourselves...and, well, by all rights we should? and then when the depression prevents us from being able to fulfill what we were reared to believe were the only acceptable standards...we kind of despise ourselves for that.

Bells
08-22-11, 08:30 PM
I wouldn't go as far as preferring cancer over mental illness, but if I had to pick a physical illness that people understood vs a mental illness that meant people blamed you and cut you no slack, I'd probably go with the physical one.
So you would rather be sick physically, get an illness or break your limbs, just so people cut you some slack? Right... Can I ask, what makes you think people would cut you any slack at all?

Lets say you had a heart attack. And they discover it was because you had a high cholesterol level. And then you would get the comments like 'well you should have taken better care of yourself, shouldn't you?'.. Or type 2 diabetes which would result in 'you eat such junk and fatty food probably'.. Because you know, being physically ill or breaking your limbs, sometimes to be permanently paralysed in some fashion is such a joy compared to depression. No it really is.

Because being physically ill or paralysed or breaking your limbs or having an accident can't bring on depression.. oh no.. that never happens, right? Because on a scale of 1 to 10, depression is an 11 and being paralysed from a stroke is 4 since you know, only one gets sympathy from people and having people 'cut you some slack'.. right?

You know, I am just not going to say anything from now on...

chimpkin
08-22-11, 09:03 PM
Whether one has a physical or a mental disability, society cannot help but measure such as a liability to the whole in terms of cost to treat and maintain and the loss of human resources directly and indirectly.


In the US, there's a debate going on about that...and the powers that be on the right seem to be pushing for keeping care privatized.
There are some really ricketty public health systems, on the county and state levels...I use one of those...better than going broke trying to pay out of pocket...but I didn't go into it until I didn't have a choice.
When I go I always feel like I'm a bureaucrat's definition of excess population, because my healthcare needs do not equal my current ability to pay for them.

I don't like depending on a bureacrat to decide what drugs I can and cannot have...when that may well be a life or death decision, and they neither know nor care that it is...
But the private insurers actually get to keep more of your money if you die, so their motivation to deny treatment seems pretty straightforward.

Maybe we should always link health and life insurance, so they have a financial interest in keeping you alive all of a sudden.
But anyway...I don't like being like this. I often wish I'd been let die at birth, I would not have survived without medical support.

I don't particularly want to live anymore.
As has been discussed, it's not in society's best interest that I do.
I'm ultimately a drain on the system and everyone. I can't argue with that, I tried not to be and failed. I'm supporting other people emotionally to...justify my continued oxy habit.


Bells said:
So you would rather be sick physically, get an illness or break your limbs, just so people cut you some slack? Right... Can I ask, what makes you think people would cut you any slack at all?

People generally cut very little slack, period...

I dunno, I took work off for my sinus surgery. I wouldn't take work off last month when my friend was asking me to go inpatient, though, because I figured I would not have a job when I got out. I'm generally too afraid to ask for help or slack-cutting, because I'm afraid the answer will be "No, and you're fired."
:shrug:
But I don't really care what happens to me physically either...I got rearended on a bicycle and went to work the next day. I hurt, unless I'm seeing white around the edge of my vision from it hurting that extremely...oh well.

wynn
08-23-11, 01:32 AM
I will use myself as an example. I was diagnosed with cancer, had surgery, chemo, radiation therapy.. and I crashed. Mentally and physically. And it was a daily struggle to not give up. Then came more cancer and more treatment and more surgery, more physical pain and more time to lie down and think about what could have been, going further and further down mentally and physically.. meanwhile my husband couldn't cope and withdrew entirely, which caused me to go further downhill mentally. Meanwhile, I live with the knowledge that I could very well be dead in 2 years time, not by my own hand, but by cancer.... there is no choice here.. It could come back. This lurking causes me to delve further into a mental hell.. The doubts.. the fear for my children, the guilt over having had children and possibly leaving them without a mother as they grow up even though when I became pregnant, I did not have cancer.. It is a personal disease that cannot be described, not mentally anyway.

Everyone has to deal with the problems of birth, aging, illness, death and separation at some point.

Bells
08-23-11, 01:37 AM
Everyone has to deal with the problems of birth, aging, illness, death and separation at some point.

Exactly..

Finally, someone has gotten it!

I do not understand how or why people are comparing illnesses or diseases or medican conditions.

Depression does not exist in a vacuum. It is often caused by giving birth, aging, illness, death and separation. To claim that one would rather be physically ill than be depressed.. It does not make sense to me.. Because physical illness often results in depression. Plus, it is also one can compare..

Everyone will suffer something at some point in time. Does not mean that one is better or worse than the other. Claiming that one is better because you may get more sympathy with one over the other.. Really? Makes me angry..

wynn
08-23-11, 01:39 AM
It's not like I'm going to do anything with my life anyway, I'm just killing time here until I die of natural causes.

I find that kind of thinking to be depressing.

chimpkin
08-23-11, 02:18 AM
I advised editing out the person-to-person comments in the OP...so I am henceforth choosing to address the thread title here.

As I think the subject is worth addressing

Mental illness is often seen as a personal failure, rather than a brain disorder. There's a lot of denialism. There's a lot of blaming-the-victim going on.
Every day on the other sites I visit I hear how psych meds are poison, or mind-control, well, actually they are mind-control. But without them your mind tends to be completely out of control. They represent a crude solution.
There's a lot of nonsense out there...and a lot of stigma.

And yes, I encounter people who think schizophrenia can be cured by sunshine and vitamins. Makes you wonder who's crazy, it does.

Jani has a severe case of schizophrenia...but most schizo-spectrum people...are among you.

Being successfully treated, working, being a functional part of society. The guy who I used to talk to... was giving up his dream of being a doctor...was still going to be a professor, though he clearly had schizophrenia.

Most manic-depressives...the same. Mental illness is more often treatable than not.

I had one of the many resident psychiatrists who treated me, and he seemed all impressed that I had a full-time job...
Never mind that six months before...I'd had a full-time job, plus picking up overtime, plus in school part-time...and he would not up my meds... I was trying to get back to where I was six months ago; he thought I was doing great...:wallbang:

So, even to the people who treat us, we're not expected to do very much except suck in air and down resources. They may not expect us to overcome, and may not help us to do so, even though we pay them to.

wynn
08-23-11, 03:02 AM
Mental illness is often seen as a personal failure,
rather than a brain disorder.

The brain disorder could be the result of "personal failure".



There's a lot of denialism. There's a lot of blaming-the-victim going on.

This is one way to see it.

Another way to see it is that the idea attempts to be related that people can and should take responsibility for their lives.




Being successfully treated, working, being a functional part of society.
/.../
Mental illness is more often treatable than not.

I have the impression that many people who have a "mental illness" believe that the whole point of normalcy is to become some kind of robot. And in their efforts to "get better," they are trying to become like robots - to not feelwhat they are feeling, to not think what they are thinking, but just to "go along with the mainstream."
It is this - perverted - idea of normalcy that may be what is actually ill about them.



So, even to the people who treat us, we're not expected to do very much except suck in air and down resources. They may not expect us to overcome, and may not help us to do so, even though we pay them to.

And then there is learned helplessness.

Especially in terms of mental illness, there may be things that people are reasonably expected to do themselves - things that others cannot provide for them.

Bells
08-23-11, 03:15 AM
I advised editing out the person-to-person comments in the OP...so I am henceforth choosing to address the thread title here.

As I think the subject is worth addressing

Mental illness is often seen as a personal failure, rather than a brain disorder. There's a lot of denialism. There's a lot of blaming-the-victim going on.
Every day on the other sites I visit I hear how psych meds are poison, or mind-control, well, actually they are mind-control. But without them your mind tends to be completely out of control. They represent a crude solution.
There's a lot of nonsense out there...and a lot of stigma.

And yes, I encounter people who think schizophrenia can be cured by sunshine and vitamins. Makes you wonder who's crazy, it does.

Jani has a severe case of schizophrenia...but most schizo-spectrum people...are among you.

Being successfully treated, working, being a functional part of society. The guy who I used to talk to... was giving up his dream of being a doctor...was still going to be a professor, though he clearly had schizophrenia.

Most manic-depressives...the same. Mental illness is more often treatable than not.

I had one of the many resident psychiatrists who treated me, and he seemed all impressed that I had a full-time job...
Never mind that six months before...I'd had a full-time job, plus picking up overtime, plus in school part-time...and he would not up my meds... I was trying to get back to where I was six months ago; he thought I was doing great...:wallbang:

So, even to the people who treat us, we're not expected to do very much except suck in air and down resources. They may not expect us to overcome, and may not help us to do so, even though we pay them to.

No one has said otherwise. Which is why this thread is really, well, funny as shit.

Asguard is complaining about something that actually never happened. No one has said that there is not a stigma with mental illness. We know there is. Many of us have experienced it. We know the problems that exist in the system. We know of the public opinion, the sneers, the comments. Look at Jani as a prime example. The child is having a psychotic episode and people tell the parents they are bad parents for not smacking her then call them bad parents when they describe their smacking her. We know there is no win/win solution with mental illness and with conditions like depression.

chimpkin
08-23-11, 05:20 AM
We know there is no win/win solution with mental illness and with conditions like depression.

Eh, it's like any other chronic bad illness...it has to be managed.

I linked evidence of degenerative brain changes in the last thread.

Here's one that looks at childhood schizophrenia:
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct97/nimh-14.htm

In the MRI study, the researchers compared scans of 16 ill teenagers participating in a clozapine trial with those of 24 age-matched controls. At the initial scan, the youths with schizophrenia tended to show enlarged ventricles, reduced total cerebral volume, and other structural anomalies. After two years, a series of re-scans revealed "highly significant" increases in the size of ventricles among those with schizophrenia. The controls showed no significant changes.

Bipolar people lose gray matter faster:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6907050.stm
And seem to have a metabolic variance:
http://psychcentral.com/news/2008/02/06/biomarker-for-bipolar/1882.html

In depression (relinking) there seem to be an abnormality in two types of brain cells:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/05/990505071039.htm
And it's been associated with thinning of the right cortex (if I remember correctly, memories are formed on the outer surface...why when I was once knocked out from a blow to the forehead, I don't remember the preceding few seconds.)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/health/25brain.html

And in a side-note...ketamine...gawd I hope this gets to be an approved use...
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v475/n7354/full/nature10130.html

Anti-Flag
08-23-11, 06:29 AM
So you would rather be sick physically, get an illness or break your limbs, just so people cut you some slack? Right... Can I ask, what makes you think people would cut you any slack at all?

Lets say you had a heart attack. And they discover it was because you had a high cholesterol level. And then you would get the comments like 'well you should have taken better care of yourself, shouldn't you?'.. Or type 2 diabetes which would result in 'you eat such junk and fatty food probably'.. Because you know, being physically ill or breaking your limbs, sometimes to be permanently paralysed in some fashion is such a joy compared to depression. No it really is.

Because being physically ill or paralysed or breaking your limbs or having an accident can't bring on depression.. oh no.. that never happens, right? Because on a scale of 1 to 10, depression is an 11 and being paralysed from a stroke is 4 since you know, only one gets sympathy from people and having people 'cut you some slack'.. right?

You know, I am just not going to say anything from now on...

I think you've missed the point entirely. It's not that one illness is worse than another or even comparable, it's peoples *perception* of the illnesses and the majority reaction towards them that differs.
It leads to thinking that "at least if I had 'x' problem they'd (probably)understand"; and usuallly it's easier to understand physical illness than psychological illness as it's considered more visable and testable.
I don't think it's unfair to say there are more people ignorant of the causes and effects of depression and other mental illnesses than many physical illnesses, even if there are many equally ignorant of both. This variance in perception and the way it causes people it act is what VI was refering to.

Fact of the matter is we don't get to choose our diseases, so we should really be educating people better on them.

wynn
08-23-11, 07:12 AM
We know there is no win/win solution with mental illness and with conditions like depression.

I don't know that.

And I don't believe it either.

visceral_instinct
08-23-11, 07:59 AM
People understood when I was suffering from vertigo. People are always understanding when I have physical injuries even though they're usually from activities I CHOSE to do. Because vertigo and dislocations are something people understand easily. There's very little perspective taking involved; it's pretty easy to understand that it SUCKS when your vestibular system malfunctions and you can't even make it across the room without falling. It's easy to understand that it sucks to get your rotator cuff mauled up while wrestling in judo class. Those are things people can instantly relate to. It's not about sympathy so much as with physical shit, people treat you the same. Nobody criticized me for having vertigo attacks. Nobody blamed my dislocated shoulder on my personal shortcomings or told me if only I'd show more willpower those connective tissues would heal.

Yes, I would take those things over being unalterably emotionally miserable, whether it was from a mental disorder itself or because people blamed me for what was wrong and I had to constantly defend myself against blame and ignorance. I could still be happy with my life, be productive and contribute to the lives of others around me when I had those things.

Now yes, there's a cutoff point. You did notice this line by me


I wouldn't go as far as preferring cancer over mental illness

Yes, I'd probably pick having depression over, say, cancer, or Addison's disease, or diabetes. But I do understand why someone would pick physical illness over one that's purely mental because at least you don't have to deal with people blaming it on you.

visceral_instinct
08-23-11, 08:02 AM
deleted

chimpkin
08-23-11, 01:25 PM
Visceral Instinct:
Yes, I'd probably pick having depression over, say, cancer, or Addison's disease, or diabetes.

Funny you should mention that..

Antipsychotics are used in cases of treatment-resistant depression...and one of the side-effects of long-term use of them can be...diabetes.
Contemplating...
Note that schizophrenics are more at risk, they are going to be on higher doses.

I'd like to try lithium, but the county docs will not ok this for depression...it's cheap, but you have to get blood levels done.


Nobody criticized me for having vertigo attacks. Nobody blamed my dislocated shoulder on my personal shortcomings or told me if only I'd show more willpower those connective tissues would heal.

Right!
I like to make the joke "Do diabetics get to hear 'it's all in your pancreas, just snap out out of it'?" But if y'all follow the links I've provided, there seems to be evidence that metabolic errors may be the problem for mental disorders. Certainly physical changes occur in the brain in mental disorders, corresponding to type.

wynn
08-23-11, 02:43 PM
People understood when I was suffering from vertigo. People are always understanding when I have physical injuries even though they're usually from activities I CHOSE to do.

That may be so in your particular case.

I am sure there are also many people who would say something like "Suits you right!" - although this is considered so rude that they'd probably just think it, not say it.

chimpkin
08-23-11, 03:45 PM
I am sure there are also many people who would say something like "Suits you right!" - although this is considered so rude that they'd probably just think it, not say it.

It makes just slightly less sense to blame the mentally ill for their illness, yet people certainly seem to.
Injuries are often a part of living life to the fullest.:shrug: I would assume most people get this, and if they don't...Oh well. I don't consider their opinions valid in that case. If someone told me that it suits me right for doing whatever...I'd probably laugh and agree.

But when I'm severely depressed I'm really vulnerable to criticism...you said something to me that's now imbedded in the negative self-dialogue I get during a depressive downspike...probably be there for years, making me feel crappy.
My brain had plenty of ammo, but you gave it another stick to whack me with...
I will actually shout aloud at times to stop this negative dialogue, but once it gets rolling it's very hard to stop.

Being told I'm to blame for feeling like s**t definitely makes me worse. Signal, I don't know if you meant to do that? but that's how it was received.
Now telling me I can do things to get out of the depression...there's a subtle but crucial difference.


That's why I try not to click on the "read post" button anymore with you, 9 out of ten posts are ok...the tenth one...

I probably am doing us both a disservice again by speaking to you...and I resolved to stop, but it's quite hard to participate in a thread you're active in and not read your posts.

Kind of a dilemma, this.

visceral_instinct
08-23-11, 03:49 PM
That may be so in your particular case.

I am sure there are also many people who would say something like "Suits you right!" - although this is considered so rude that they'd probably just think it, not say it.

Which example are you talking about? Vertigo, or injuries from activities I freely chose to do?

Now you mention it, someone actually did tell me to 'just suck up' a vertigo attack...lol...I wonder how you do that?

wynn
08-23-11, 04:07 PM
It makes just slightly less sense to blame the mentally ill for their illness, yet people certainly seem to.

It is not necessarily or simply blame, though.
More often, it is probably an indication that the "mentally ill" can and should do something about their state.



But when I'm severely depressed I'm really vulnerable to criticism...you said something to me that's now imbedded in the negative self-dialogue I get during a depressive downspike...probably be there for years, making me feel crappy.

What exactly was it?

If I gave you the thought - I may have more power over it than you have so far thought.



My brain had plenty of ammo, but you gave it another stick to whack me with...
I will actually shout aloud at times to stop this negative dialogue, but once it gets rolling it's very hard to stop.

Being told I'm to blame for feeling like s**t definitely makes me worse. Signal, I don't know if you meant to do that? but that's how it was received.

This is not how I meant it, but I can understand that this is how it was received.



Now telling me I can do things to get out of the depression...there's a subtle but crucial difference.

Yes.



That's why I try not to click on the "read post" button anymore with you, 9 out of ten posts are ok...the tenth one...

A while back, you yourself told me I needn't hold back.



I probably am doing us both a disservice again by speaking to you...

I don't think so.



and I resolved to stop, but it's quite hard to participate in a thread you're active in and not read your posts.

Kind of a dilemma, this.

Heh. :o



We have to face eventually that we don't want to be undepressed.
Terrible things might happen to us if we're not depressed!

We have our identity in this process of depressing.
We are afraid that if we stop, we
won't know how to be,
won't know who to be,
won't know what life will expect.

It is safer and more comfortable to continue with the depressing than risk the freedom.



Depression can happen
when we try not to be unhappy.

We want to go from one peak to the next
without traveling through the valleys below.

Feeling guilty over being
how you are
does nothing
but rob you of your life.

It is okay to
feel whatever you feel
think whatever you think
be however you are.

Guilt and fear keep us from knowing our True Self, our intrinsic purity and goodness, the Divine within us.


(From Cheri Huber's Depression Book)

wynn
08-23-11, 04:09 PM
Which example are you talking about? Vertigo, or injuries from activities I freely chose to do?

Both, but especially the latter.



Now you mention it, someone actually did tell me to 'just suck up' a vertigo attack...lol...I wonder how you do that?

If you were an advanced meditator, surely you could do it.
Not to mention that it would be a very good thing to control even a spell of vertigo.

visceral_instinct
08-23-11, 04:48 PM
If you were an advanced meditator, surely you could do it.
Not to mention that it would be a very good thing to control even a spell of vertigo.

Yes, it would.

Unfortunately there's not a whole lot you can do when your vestibular system is malfunctioning, and even if you could learn it, that would take TIME.

Expecting someone to simply shrug it off is being fucking irresponsible. He did not mean learn to control it, he meant stop being a pussy and don't even mention it.

chimpkin
08-23-11, 05:19 PM
It is not necessarily or simply blame, though.
More often, it is probably an indication that the "mentally ill" can and should do something about their state.

Then, if dealing with the mentally ill, I would (and do) state that explicitly. I talk to a lot of other suicidal people, and eventually I will say something like "I care, and I can listen to you vent, but I really can't help unless you do something."
I try to be a lot less pushy about what that something is than I used to be, as I really have no idea what will work for that person in many cases. I offer a bunch of ideas, but also ask them what they think, what they are willing to do. It's important that whatever they do, the person take ownership...that is, they feel in charge of what's going on. Otherwise it's a lot less likely to work.


What exactly was it?
If I gave you the thought - I may have more power over it than you have so far thought.
"wallowing in it"
What this means to me is not only that I feel horrible, but that I am entirely responsible for feeling horrible.
This is why I keep responding with evidence that what's going on is physiological in nature.
Over and over.
You have yet to acknowledge this and keep telling me things that read to me as if you are saying it is entirely my fault, and entirely based on my thought process.
This is why I think it's better that I put you on ignore and leave you there.

I do not think asking you to censor yourself is fair to you. That's an impingement on your rights as an equal here.

But I don't want to hear how I'm to blame for being severely depressed, for being sexually abused and having rather extreme mental aftereffects, for not being able to just magically be all peachy after having a childhood of being used as a human blow-up doll and punching bag.

I am quite angry and hurt, yes. Sorry.


This is not how I meant it, but I can understand that this is how it was received.
Yes.


I]We have to face eventually that we don't want to be undepressed.
Terrible things might happen to us if we're not depressed!

We have our identity in this process of depressing.
We are afraid that if we stop, we
won't know how to be,
won't know who to be,
won't know what life will expect.

It is safer and more comfortable to continue with the depressing than risk the freedom.
[/I]


(From Cheri Huber's Depression Book)

Regarding this quote...I became depressed at ten, suicidally ideating by 11...not put on antidepressants unti right before I turned 17...
I had to deal with wondering who the hell I was when I was first successfully treated with antidepressants and therapy.
I've transformed myself multiple times since then, such that I'm convinced I have no real solid identity...because I have experienced shifting it so much.

No matter who I am and what I have done to change my mentation, including EMDR, meditation, journaling, losing 120 pounds, an exercise habit, digging up a ton of repressed memories, years of therapy AND the latest in pharmaceutical fashions...I STILL feel like battered batsh!t some days. And for this you tell me I'm at fault.

My problem I'll accept. Fault?

Right now I'm dinking away at a DBT workbook...one of the core skills is "distress tolerance." In other words, I can't get rid of the crappiness; I therefore have to learn advanced ways of putting up with it.

visceral_instinct
08-23-11, 05:27 PM
Don't mind him. You're talking to someone who thinks a good way to solve a vertigo attack is to shut up about it and stop bothering people.

Asguard
08-23-11, 06:44 PM
you know whats sad about this thread, it shows exactly what that artical (which i doubt any of you bothered to read) was talking about.

I wonder if anyone will actually watch\ read this (i hope you can but i dont know wether the ABC lets internationals watch its stuff)

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/interactive/angelsanddemons/

yes its broken up into various videos but its all one show and i challange anyone to watch the whole thing and then say there views on mental illness are the same.

there was also a bit in the program "All in the mind" on angels and demons

http://blogs.abc.net.au/allinthemind/2008/03/angels-and-demo.html

Oh and one specific comment to bells on treatment. No bells, im not currently being treated and do you want to know why? Because the goverment in its infinit wisdom decided that you can have 10 sesions a year and thats it, no matter what you are like, no matter if your standing on the edge ready to jump you cant get any more psycologist visits. Just imagin if the goverment decided to (for budgetry reasons) make chemo a fixed amount. You may have 10 sesions of chemo and then if that hasnt worked, well thats to bad, you have to wait a full year before you can have anymore.

And im not on any antidepressants either, because every medication i have tried does this to me
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_ejaculation

Besides the fact that the arguments which come from PB when i cant get off, and the fact she then blames me and the huge fights ect (which is great on top of being depressed already) we are trying to have kids and its impossible with that. So no, i cant get any help unless i was to get so bad that i had to be commited and even then it would mean just waiting in a waiting room for hours on end (probably for around 48 hours, thats the adverage time pts i have been transfering have reported), while being ignored by the staff while they deal with "real pts". At the end of it i would see a shrink who would then refer me to a psycologist who i cant see because of the goverments cost saving measures and then send me out the door. Thats the standed of care for suicidle depression in the current health system, but im lucky. Im not a cutter, because if i was i would probably be sown up with no anesetic because "that will teach him", or left bleeding for hours because "he did it to himself, worrry about the REAL cases".

Bells you stated you had depression for 6months related to your diognosis, that is sad, commen and probably treatable. I (and chimpkin and heeps of others) have suffered it for YEARS. In my case i have double depression

http://www.depressionplace.com/dysthymia.html
http://www.depressionplace.com/double_depression.html

Its constant and ongoing FOREVER. Not 6 months. I surpose you could liken it to a women with gestational diabetes telling an insulin dependent diabetic that depression isnt so bad and that they know everything about living with diabeties because they have had it for 9 months and then it went away when the baby was born. You chose to see it as either something tacked on the end of something else (as shown by your list) or as somehow mild and irrelivent. I suggest you watch those videos bells, and see what its really like.

chimpkin
08-23-11, 06:59 PM
Asguard, pause a minute...I think you are invalidating Bell's hell.

I don't know that she's equally invalidating yours.
Admittedly, six months of Major Depressive Disorder is just a dip in the pool, but add the whole package...pretty damn miserable.
I seem to remember something about neuro effects of chemo: "chemo brain."

OTOH the first time I was depressed, for that four years I was literally spending an average of a couple hours a day hating myself for not having the courage to commit suicide. Great place for an 11-year old to be...

I was too scared at the time, but thought I really needed to die for the good of humanity. Therapy was tried...it wasn't until I was put on prozac that I got better.

Cancer...is going to be intensely miserable. If it goes into remission...then thank goodness. Hopefully stays there.
Depression alone...probably a little less intensely miserable...might or might not go into remission. I've had better years. But more chronic.
Questioning your own sanity isn't fun either. Pretty nasty.

Asguard
08-23-11, 07:09 PM
Asguard, pause a minute...I think you are invalidating Bell's hell.

I don't know that she's equally invalidating yours.
Admittedly, six months of Major Depressive Disorder is just a dip in the pool, but add the whole package...pretty damn miserable.
I seem to remember something about neuro effects of chemo: "chemo brain."

OTOH the first time I was depressed, for that four years I was literally spending an average of a couple hours a day hating myself for not having the courage to commit suicide. Great place for an 11-year old to be...

I was too scared at the time, but thought I really needed to die for the good of humanity. Therapy was tried...it wasn't until I was put on prozac that I got better.

Not in the least, depression is one of the most devistating diseases wether it lasts 2 weeks (the min i belive nessary for a diognosis of depression) or forever but mutiple times she has implied im attention seeking for saying i would rather have cancer than depression (and then she went on to compleatly missquote me and said that i wish i had cancer to get some sympathy) and she held up her experiance with 6 months of depression as proof that depression is nothing. I think she is being childish with her whole attitude but im trying to explain how 6 months is hell but how forever is much much worse. I herd a quote recently in a movie which says hell isnt bad because of the pain, its not bad because of the fire, its bad because it never ends (something like that anyway). THAT is what im trying to convey to her.

Bells
08-23-11, 09:03 PM
Bells you stated you had depression for 6months related to your diognosis, that is sad, commen and probably treatable. I (and chimpkin and heeps of others) have suffered it for YEARS. In my case i have double depression


Wait..

Is this you citing your "experience"? Is this the whole 'I've been sick for longer so ner'?


Again, can I remind you that sickness is not something that one can compare?


Not in the least, depression is one of the most devistating diseases wether it lasts 2 weeks (the min i belive nessary for a diognosis of depression) or forever but mutiple times she has implied im attention seeking for saying i would rather have cancer than depression (and then she went on to compleatly missquote me and said that i wish i had cancer to get some sympathy) and she held up her experiance with 6 months of depression as proof that depression is nothing.
Not only did I not misquote you, I also never once held my health issues as "experience". Look at what you are saying. And you dare call me childish?

My god, you actually turn my stomach.

Illness is not a competition, you little ghoul.

I never once invalidated your illness or made light of it. Not once. I never once touted my own health issues as "experience" or being 'better than yours'.


I think she is being childish with her whole attitude but im trying to explain how 6 months is hell but how forever is much much worse.
Can you please show me exactly where I said that?

What I said, you moron, was that you cannot compare illnesses. Sickness is not a competition or something that can be compared.

Either site your sources or shut the hell up and stop lying.

chimpkin
08-23-11, 09:32 PM
I go to a sexual abuse survivor's site...
And I get to convince a lot of people that their less severe abuse is as valid, damaging and needs healing as the Dissociative Identity persons who were used in child porn...
And the mods would be on a comparison of suffering like this there like a ton of bricks.

OK:Now I'm guilty of doing it too in this thread...

I need to keep personal stuff between me and other members out of the public eye...Work it out in PM.
I will always do so in future.
I apologize, Signal. Won't happen again.

But nonetheless...even though I am guilty as sin here...

Can we please stop discussing ourselves and each other from here on out?

If the answer on that is no-
Somebody probably ought to just lock the fricken' thread, because we're not going to get anything productive done.
On a topic worth digging into.
*sigh*

I am working my way through the "enough rope" show...I would find it very interesting...and rather creepy... to participate in one of those auditory hallucination workshops.

Bells
08-23-11, 10:28 PM
I don't understand the notion of comparing or diminishing someone's illness or questioning its validity or citing "experience".


Experience? Time limits..

What the hell?

Again, for Asguard's benefit..

Illness is not a competition.


Because of my investment in this thread, it would be unfair of me to lock it. Because he targetted me directly in the OP, I could very well be deemed to be abusing my power if I did shut it down. I had advised my colleagues from the moment he started this thread that I may have to request a review and will be doing so today.:mad:

parmalee
08-23-11, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by chimpkin
But I don't want to hear how I'm to blame for being severely depressed, for being sexually abused and having rather extreme mental aftereffects, for not being able to just magically be all peachy after having a childhood of being used as a human blow-up doll and punching bag.

I am quite angry and hurt, yes. Sorry. ...

Regarding this quote...I became depressed at ten, suicidally ideating by 11...not put on antidepressants unti right before I turned 17...
I had to deal with wondering who the hell I was when I was first successfully treated with antidepressants and therapy.
I've transformed myself multiple times since then, such that I'm convinced I have no real solid identity...because I have experienced shifting it so much.

No matter who I am and what I have done to change my mentation, including EMDR, meditation, journaling, losing 120 pounds, an exercise habit, digging up a ton of repressed memories, years of therapy AND the latest in pharmaceutical fashions...I STILL feel like battered batsh!t some days. And for this you tell me I'm at fault.

My problem I'll accept. Fault?

No disrespect intended by disregarding your request immediately prior this post, but, just wanted to add--briefly:

Much of that is eerily familiar--not in the unheimlichkeit sense, but more in the, uh, unfremdlichkeit kinda way (that's sort of a Middle High German, uh, confabulation (which might seem like the wrong word, but is in fact the word I intend), so don't bother trying to look it up)--that is:

I can't even recall the earliest suicidal ideation (kinda blocked out a significant chunk of my childhood), but I'm fairly certain it at least surfaced some time after my initial rejection of "God," which came about at age 4 whilst "lying" in bed doing that activity which shortly thereafter cracked my skull open and left a teeny-weeny little scar on my left temporal lobe with other-than-teeny implications.

Anyhow, dx'ed bipolar at 16 and put on lithium (following suicide attempt and compulsory (but brief) institutionalization). Lithium's not so great for epileptics, but I didn't get that dx for another 8/9 years. Instead, I subsequently got a schizophrenia dx and put on old-school neuroleptics. Maybe not so much the fault of shitty docs as it was the fault of a shitty medical "system," which affords poor people 5 minute appointments tops (if at all)--hardly time enough to make an accurate dx. Didn't get the proper epilepsy dx
til age 25, whilst I was ***somehow*** a graduate student in Toronto, Canada. (I'll try to avoid blurting out any "Death to America" cries here.)

But by that point I had seized so much, and so often, and for rather lengthy stretches (including periods in which I would allofasudden-like find myself halway across the continent (sans any vehicle) with absolutely no clue as to how the hell I had gotten "there"), such that the cumulative effects were not unlike receiving multiple courses of 1970's-style ECT "treatment" (see Waxman-Geschwind Syndrome). IOW I sarcely recognize that person that I was when I was, say, 20, or 25, or 30, anymore. And the fact that in the time since I had received the accurate diagnosis, none of the meds I've tried have done jack-shit, I continue to "transform." Now I just do without meds (and docs) altogether, and am frankly faring much better.

Of course, all that stuff's for the most part "invisible" (well, except during "episodes"); that is, no one sees the little scar on my brain; or that kid who was raised in poverty by an ignorant, albeit clever and conniving, psychopathic father (who finally left during my adolescence) and a doting, albeit clueless and oblivious, mother; or the young adult who, between bouts of homelessness, managed to get beaten (literally) repeatedly by reps of the "State" and experimented upon by clueless and uncaring "doctors"--and also managed, somehow, to get a proper edumacation, see a good part of the world, and perform strange music in strange places scattered about that world. What they see is a slender, reasonably attractive, well-educated white guy who could look a bit more "presentable" were he to gain a bit of weight and shed that "revolutionary" look--but who is prone to "acting out" inexplicably, ranting like a madman on occassion, and falling down at times. IOW they see a potential threat to "national security" of the most nefarious variety: the wolf in sheep's clothing.

I like to own up to my actions, my behaviors, my temperament, and "take responsibility" for all that shit. But at the same time, sometimes I've gotta wonder how the hell I'm "responsible" for all of that.


P.S. Also, gotta add: I wholly concur with Bells and Chimpkin with regards to the utter absurdity of comparing illnesses.

wynn
08-24-11, 01:34 AM
Yes, it would.

Unfortunately there's not a whole lot you can do when your vestibular system is malfunctioning, and even if you could learn it, that would take TIME.

Sure.



Expecting someone to simply shrug it off is being fucking irresponsible. He did not mean learn to control it, he meant stop being a pussy and don't even mention it.

If you think the above is what the person intended, then why not talk it over with them?

Or is it that you cherish your own interpretations of other people's intentions above what these other people actually mean?



Don't mind him. You're talking to someone who thinks a good way to solve a vertigo attack is to shut up about it and stop bothering people.

No, I don't, and you have just given an example of why some people who feel shitty remain feeling shitty.

By not communicating with others, people make themselves victims of their own - often misguided - interpretations of other people's intentions.
And thus make everything worse, for themselves, and for others.

People aren't simply evil. But if one presumes they are and treats them as if they were, they won't tolerate it forever.

chimpkin
08-24-11, 02:10 AM
People aren't simply evil.
Sometimes they are though...just evil.
Sometimes the cumulative effect of being locked in their emotional injuries is...evil.

Mostly people are indifferent, though, and that is the truth.

wynn
08-24-11, 02:39 AM
Sometimes they are though...just evil.

Mostly people are indifferent, though, and that is the truth.

There are three ways to approach a challenging interpersonal situation:

1. "It is my fault."
2. "It is the oter person's fault."
3. "There is a reason."

The first two lock us into a downward spiral of contempt - contempt for oneself and for others.

The third response lets us communicate and achieve goals.


The point of communication isn't to establish who or what the other person "really is", or who or what we "really are," but to get a task completed, to get our needs met.

wynn
08-24-11, 03:02 AM
"wallowing in it"
What this means to me is not only that I feel horrible, but that I am entirely responsible for feeling horrible.
This is why I keep responding with evidence that what's going on is physiological in nature.
Over and over.
You have yet to acknowledge this and keep telling me things that read to me as if you are saying it is entirely my fault, and entirely based on my thought process.

I think it is key that you acknowledge that you read it this way.


I think that the idea that "all mental problems are physiologically caused" is disempowering.
It's like cutting one's arms and legs off.


I am sure there is evidence of this and that - but I also think it is ultimately irrelevant.


I am not blaming you. I'm trying to give you an example of thinking differently about your problems.


If gritting your teeth worked - you'd be perfect by now, wouldn't you?
But since gritting your teeth hasn't produced results after so many years - then how about trying something else?



But I don't want to hear how I'm to blame for being severely depressed, for being sexually abused and having rather extreme mental aftereffects, for not being able to just magically be all peachy after having a childhood of being used as a human blow-up doll and punching bag.

It is what you might hear. But it is not necessarily what you are told.

I apologize if I am not able yet to make myself more clear and more concise.



I am quite angry and hurt, yes. Sorry.

Why are you saying you're sorry for being angry and hurt?

I'd really like to know that.



No matter who I am and what I have done to change my mentation, including EMDR, meditation, journaling, losing 120 pounds, an exercise habit, digging up a ton of repressed memories, years of therapy AND the latest in pharmaceutical fashions...I STILL feel like battered batsh!t some days. And for this you tell me I'm at fault.

I think your fault is in thinking that life should be plain sailing.
:o

Most people seem to believe that life should be plain sailing. It's also a silly belief, and it causes a lot of harm.



Right now I'm dinking away at a DBT workbook...one of the core skills is "distress tolerance." In other words, I can't get rid of the crappiness; I therefore have to learn advanced ways of putting up with it.

I didn't get the impression that DBT teaches a kind of grit-your-teeth-and-bear-it.

Captain Kremmen
08-24-11, 03:03 AM
Not only did I not misquote you, I also never once held my health issues as "experience". Look at what you are saying. And you dare call me childish?

My god, you actually turn my stomach.

Illness is not a competition, you little ghoul.



That's not very kind, Bells.

wynn
08-24-11, 03:05 AM
Albert Ellis, in his Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT), identified a number of dysfunctional beliefs that people often hold.
Irrational beliefs

Here are irrational beliefs that Ellis described:

* It is a dire necessity for adult humans to be loved or approved by virtually every significant other person in their community.

* One absolutely must be competent, adequate and achieving in all important respects or else one is an inadequate, worthless person.

* People absolutely must act considerately and fairly and they are damnable villains if they do not. They are their bad acts.

* It is awful and terrible when things are not the way one would very much like them to be.

* Emotional disturbance is mainly externally caused and people have little or no ability to increase or decrease their dysfunctional feelings and behaviors.

* If something is or may be dangerous or fearsome, then one should be constantly and excessively concerned about it and should keep dwelling on the possibility of it occurring.

* One cannot and must not face life's responsibilities and difficulties and it is easier to avoid them.

* One must be quite dependent on others and need them and you cannot mainly run one's own life.

* One's past history is an all-important determiner of one's present behavior and because something once strongly affected one's life, it should indefinitely have a similar effect.

* Other people's disturbances are horrible and one must feel upset about them.

* There is invariably a right, precise and perfect solution to human problems and it is awful if this perfect solution is not found.


Discussion

Ellis's belief are deliberately extreme, to highlight that we often take unreasonably exaggerated viewpoints. He called this approach 'awfulizing', as we tend to pessimistically generalize these things.

http://changingminds.org/explanations/belief/irrational_beliefs.htm

Can you see how holding such beliefs makes life really really hard?
Can you see how holding such beliefs makes you feel depressed?

Asguard
08-24-11, 03:32 AM
I cant even find a name, university, medical institution or goverment atached to that site (Except for ads of course). where do they get there evidence? wheres there studies? wheres the links?

Looks like cooko land to me.

Did you actually look at the links i posted signal?

wynn
08-24-11, 03:32 AM
I like to own up to my actions, my behaviors, my temperament, and "take responsibility" for all that shit. But at the same time, sometimes I've gotta wonder how the hell I'm "responsible" for all of that.


My view is that people who end up diagnosed (by themselves or doctors) as "mentall ill," are people who have a heightened sensitivity.
This sensitivity can be an asset, or a liability, depending on numerous factors - from how other people treat such a person, to the person's own actions.

It seems they try really hard to "be like everyone else" - and it is not helping them. In fact, nobody who tries to "be like everyone else" seems to fare particularly well.

My view is that the "bored housewife" and the "average Joe" are using the same strategies of denial, depressing, self-hatred and such as those who are "mentally ill". These strategies are common, they are even popularily considered "normal". Of course, Freud would, for example, say they are not, but that they are neurotic.

Except that people who end up diagnosed (by themselves or doctors) as "mentall ill" are able to practice those strategies to a greater extent. They, sort of, simply reach the goal of those strategies earlier, given their heightened sensitivity.

The goal of those strategies being something like "If I feel bad about myself, then I am a good person." A "basic lesson" most of us have learned early on.


There is nothing wrong with you!!

Except maybe thinking that there is something wrong with you. :o

Asguard
08-24-11, 03:36 AM
My view is that people who end up diagnosed (by themselves or doctors) as "mentall ill," are people who have a heightened sensitivity.
This sensitivity can be an asset, or a liability, depending on numerous factors - from how other people treat such a person, to the person's own actions.

It seems they try really hard to "be like everyone else" - and it is not helping them. In fact, nobody who tries to "be like everyone else" seems to fare particularly well.

My view is that the "bored housewife" and the "average Joe" are using the same strategies of denial, depressing, self-hatred and such as those who are "mentally ill". These strategies are common, they are even popularily considered "normal". Of course, Freud would, for example, say they are not, but that they are neurotic.

Except that people who end up diagnosed (by themselves or doctors) as "mentall ill" are able to practice those strategies to a greater extent. They, sort of, simply reach the goal of those strategies earlier, given their heightened sensitivity.

The goal of those strategies being something like "If I feel bad about myself, then I am a good person." A "basic lesson" most of us have learned early on.


There is nothing wrong with you!!

Except maybe thinking that there is something wrong with you. :o

you got your degree where? (and in what) oh and frud was debunked YEARS ago, he is only of intrest from a historical perspective

wynn
08-24-11, 03:37 AM
just because someone acronymtizes (yes i made that word up, get over it) something doesnt mean that its an authority. I cant even a name, university, medical institution or goverment atached to that site (Except for ads of course). where do they get there evidence? wheres there studies? wheres the links?

Looks like cooko land to me.

Think this thought -
* It is awful and terrible when things are not the way one would very much like them to be.

- Do you believe this?




Did you actually look at the links i posted signal?

Some of them.

Asguard
08-24-11, 03:40 AM
specifically did you actually watch the interviews on the website angels and demons?

You judge mental illness to be a myth (you wouldnt be a scientologist would you?) with no evidence and ignoring the expeciances of those who suffer them AND those who treat them.

wynn
08-24-11, 03:46 AM
you got your degree where? (and in what) oh and frud was debunked YEARS ago, he is only of intrest from a historical perspective

The way I see it, you are far too dependent on external sources for validation.
It would appear this dependence contributes to your depression.


How does Asguard feel?
What does Asguard think?

Must Asguard wait for official science to prove something before Asguard may believe it?
How does Asguard resolve the contradictions between scientific findings?



And no, Freud was not "debunked."
You are a lay and you are trying to make professional assessments of developments in psychology.
No serious psychologist would say that Freud (or someone else) was "debunked."

Namely, there is little consensus in psychology; there are many views of the same phenomenon.
Some psychologists maintain that all mental illness is physiologically caused.
Some psychologists maintain that the view that "all mental illness is physiologically caused" is ultimately not helpful for treatment.


But you are focusing on those views in psychology that suit your depression - namely the disempowering views.

Did you consider that it is your depression that is making you focus on those theories in psychology that would keep your depression in place instead of getting out of it?

wynn
08-24-11, 03:48 AM
You judge mental illness to be a myth

Not at all.

It is telling that you think I do.

It is your mental illness that is leading you to think I judge mental illness to be a myth.

wynn
08-24-11, 04:06 AM
you got your degree where? (and in what)

I don't have a degree in psychology or related fields.

This is a discussion forum and the topic of mental illness comes up in general as well, so it is prudent to be able to talk about things. One doesn't have to have a degree for that.
(Note that I often use qualifiers such as "In my view" and "I think".)


Chimpkin said earlier:


Can we please stop discussing ourselves and each other from here on out?

I don't think this can work.

We are all lays here.
We cannot talk serious official psychology.
Apparently, this is not what people want anyway.
There doesn't seem to be much use in talking official psychology either.


If you, and some others, would really be so very interested in what official psychology has to say about mental illness, you would spend your time reading their books, websites, participate in their seminars, conferences etc.

But apparently, official psychology is not all that interesting for you and some others.

So you come here and you want to talk about stuff. Okay.
You want to play out your mental illness with real people. Okay.
Because this social aspect of your mental illness is probably crucial to it and crucial to overcoming your mental illness. Okay.

chimpkin
08-24-11, 04:07 AM
You are a lay and you are trying to make professional assessments of developments in psychology.
No serious psychologist would say that Freud (or someone else) was "debunked."

Debunked isn't the word they use, but my professors pointed him out as an artefact, not as anything more than historical relevance...he's been long-since superseded.

And Freud used cocaine. Which certainly perked his patients up, yes.

According to the wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_emotive_behavior_therapy) entry:


REBT is one form of cognitive behavior therapy (CBT) and was first expounded by Ellis in the mid-1950s; development continued until his death in 2007.

The Marquis
08-24-11, 04:16 AM
http://www.ourweekly.com/issues-archive/african-american-males-and-suicide-changing-attitudes-require-new-look
I'm wondering. Are you posting that to refute or support?

This article is saying that black depression and suicide cases are on the rise.

Perhaps this is why:

"It was believed that after dealing with slavery and the attendant legacy of institutionalized racism as well, Black communities blighted by gangs and drugs, there was nothing that African Americans could not handle emotionally, Barnes said."


“Younger Blacks are similar to younger Whites now in their attitudes. Those are things worth considering. Any stress might cause one to reevaluate life,” Joe said. “When life is difficult (young Blacks) have a similar outlook (to young Whites). There has been an integration of American norms.
And here we are again. Cultural influence.
Getting the drift? Slowly sinking in?

This is not a disease. It is a state of mind.

Moreover, it is a state of mind which is becoming more acceptable... and in the case of some (no names, and besides I think he's ignoring me now), almost fashionable.
All you need do is look at this thread, where there seems to be a few jostling for position over who can elicit the most sympathy.

Referring to it as a "disease" gives the impression it is something you have which somebody needs to cure you of.
As I said, some people are born with a natural balance of chemicals which may make them more susceptible to depression. That's a given. Some are more muscular, some are more intelligent. We're all different.
The problem with giving it attention and undue acceptance is that you impart a license to suffer from it. Same goes for ADHD and similar mental imbalances; suddenly everyone who happens to be badly behaved has a diease which gives them the excuse that it isn't their fault... and a reason not to confront themselves. The amount of times I've seen someone on here claiming to have "borderline Asberger's" is enough to give me the screaming heebie jeebies.

Society has a tendency, rather than encouraging individuals to take responsibility for themselves, to excuse and lay blame elsewhere. That, incidentally, is a phenomenon not confined within this thread alone.
"I'm a self-indulgent little worm. But I have a note from my doctor. So I'm not a self-indulgent little worm."

And I'm told I have to accept that. Understand it. Sympathise. I'm told I have a stigma.
Honestly? It's like watching a fat guy sitting around whining about glandular problems while munching on a box of donuts.


So an economically-motivated immigrant to another country...form their perspective...flush plumbing! only working 12 hours a day! a day off!
What luxury!
Precisely. The statistics bear it out.


From the perspective of someone with depression who was born into that culture:
" I don't have a degree, I don't have a good job, my relatives...
...So, it's not that we Westerners are spoiled so much as we expect a lot out of ourselves and, well, by all rights we should?
... and then when the depression prevents us from being able to fulfill what we were reared to believe were the only acceptable standards...we kind of despise ourselves for that.
The obvious conclusion being that it all boils down to perspective. Theirs (the migrants), and yours. If yours is skewed, as it would would certainly appear to be, then it's up to you to do something about it.

For a start, you can stop worrying about what others expectations of you are, and start figuring out who you are. From the sounds of what I've read from you, it's one of your main problems - expecting sympathy and support, and not only that, but from all the wrong people.
If you're that fat guy, you have two choices. You can get up and walk, or you can reach for another donut. You're probably always going to be fat, if you're that way inclined. But there is nothing stopping you from minimising the impact as much as humanly possible - and everything wrong with using a glandular problem as a reason to sit around wallowing in it.

Or you can put me on ignore. I think some already have.
That is the type who are going to wallow in it for the rest of their lives. It has little to do with me, and everything to do with them.

The Marquis
08-24-11, 04:25 AM
That's not very kind, Bells.
Ever wonder if those being "kind" to him are the reason he now can't even see what a mollusc he's been here?

One simple rule.
As soon as someone gets support from any quarter, they're less likely to consider that they might be wrong about something.

Fuck being kind. The notion has been reincarnated as something exceedingly ugly.

Gustav
08-24-11, 04:29 AM
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/1868/nigeld.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tcpdzW8sNMk)

The Marquis
08-24-11, 04:32 AM
P.S. Also, gotta add: I wholly concur with Bells and Chimpkin with regards to the utter absurdity of comparing illnesses.
What, I don't get credit for bringing it up first because you don't like me much?

I demand recognition!.

*... or I'll get all depressed.

chimpkin
08-24-11, 05:21 AM
The Marquis:
This is not a disease. It is a state of mind.

It is far more complicated than software versus wetware, actually.
It is neither, and both.

Things that happen to you can precipitate an organic brain-state one was already predisposed to.

Schizophrenia...is considered a very strongly-heritable condition... and yet:

Moldin (1998) reviewed twin studies published between 1920 and 1987 and found that concordance rates for monozygotic twins averaged 46%, even when reared in different families, whereas the concordance rates for dizygotic twins averaged only 14%
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Schizophrenia_-_Twin_studies

So, What causes schizophrenia? we don't know...but generally it's going to be a mix of nature and nurture.
It may even be an early vitamin D deficiency (http://news.discovery.com/human/vitamin-d-schizophrenia.html)...

Speaking of changes resulting from the environment...people with PTSD have been found to have variance in genetic expression...which strongly suggest trauma actually "switches" how genes express themselves:

http://www.usnews.com/mobile/articles_mobile/genetic-changes-show-up-in-people-with-ptsd

However...regarding what Signal keeps saying...
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/649181.html

The meditation group participants spent an average of 27 minutes a day doing mindfulness meditation exercises. The MRI scans taken after the eight-week program revealed increased gray matter density in the hippocampus (important for learning and memory) and in structures associated with compassion and self-awareness.

Similarly...if one scans the brains of people who take meds versus the untreated, you'll generally see less deterioration in the medded brain.

Now...regarding culture and mental health...and the interactions therof...

This is precisely WHY I am dinking away at a sociology undergrad.

Because taking a person in isolation and fixing that person while ignoring a screwed-up society (which will just screw them up again) does not make a whole lot of sense to me.

East Asians apparently carry a genetic vulnerability to depression...but they have low rates of depression...
The hypothesis put forward is that their collectivist culture evolved as a way to short-circuit that widespread genetic vulnerability to depression:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/09/the-depression-map-genes-culture-serotonin-and-a-side-of-pathogens/

So...
there is some manner of some control in some sufferers of mental illness.
But the fact of the matter is, severity really varies. Like any other illness. It's not a standard-size straightjacket.

If you're determined to ignore the scientific data I keep posting about the structural brain changes..
If you are going to look at one data point I used, and take it entirely out of context...
If you are going to post no links refuting me but feel free to be disrespectful to me anyway...

Why, then you are fully worthy of of your place on my ignore list sir.

visceral_instinct
08-24-11, 05:41 AM
If you think the above is what the person intended, then why not talk it over with them?

Or is it that you cherish your own interpretations of other people's intentions above what these other people actually mean?


Because I already dealt with it a long time ago. I simply shared here to make a point...

Captain Kremmen
08-24-11, 06:53 AM
Ever wonder if those being "kind" to him are the reason he now can't even see what a mollusc he's been here?

One simple rule.
As soon as someone gets support from any quarter, they're less likely to consider that they might be wrong about something.

Fuck being kind. The notion has been reincarnated as something exceedingly ugly.


I've seen Asguard called a ghoul.
The same person said that he, or his attitude, makes them physically sick.

Most probably this goes back further than this thread and the preceding thread, but what can he have done to deserve such abuse?

One thing which seems to be really bad, is for him to have said that he would rather be physically ill and happy, than healthy in body but not in mind.

Is that so hard to understand?

I have known a few people confined to wheelchairs who are content, on balance, with what life has given them. Of course, they would like to walk, but if I asked them whether they would prefer to be able to walk but at the same time be chronically depressed, I'm sure that they would stick with the status quo.


Now. What else has he said that makes him such a target?

chimpkin
08-24-11, 07:08 AM
Alright...
What I find frustrating...is to repeat over and over again, and present evidence...that depression, which I struggle with...and do put a good bit of effort into managing...

Is not entirely under my control.

Also trying to express that it is not just ouchie, but overwhelmingly awful a lot of the time these days.

What I keep receiving from the skeptical camp is that this is really a personal failure on my part, entirely my choice to suffer.

And I should just shut up now.

I find this extremely frustrating.
Invalidating is the precise word, but that's edging on psych field jargon.

That may not be how it is intended...but if the above is not how it is intended...would you please make a better effort to express yourselves clearly?


One thing which seems to be really bad, is for him to have said that he would rather be physically ill and happy, than healthy in body but not in mind.

Is that so hard to understand?

Bells was quite offended that he compared cancer to major depressive disorder...and I think comparing suffering at all...is just a bad idea, anyway.

Comparing my own suffering though?
Having a permanently bent left arm which hurt for about chronically off and on was and is easier to deal with than Major Depression...(BTW, it's an inch shorter than the other arm b/c of the bone chips the doc took out... and I can't pronate my hand...meaning I can't hold anything in my left palm... annoying...)

The Marquis
08-24-11, 07:15 AM
Things that happen to you can precipitate an organic brain-state one was already predisposed to.
Right. How many times have I said that some people are more disposed to it than others, now?


Schizophrenia...is considered a very strongly-heritable condition... and yet:
And yet what? Was I talking about Schizophrenia?
The answer is "no", so we'll move on to the next bit...


Now...regarding culture and mental health...and the interactions therof...
This is precisely WHY I am dinking away at a sociology undergrad.
Make sure you mix in a healthy dose of anthropology with that, or all you'll end up with is the ability to regurgitate current prevailing opinion. You'll also require the capability to observe objectively and figure things out for yourself.


Because taking a person in isolation and fixing that person while ignoring a screwed-up society (which will just screw them up again) does not make a whole lot of sense to me.
Correct. The unfortunate thing about this being that your view of what is wrong with society and mine do not appear to coincide.


East Asians apparently carry a genetic vulnerability to depression...but they have low rates of depression...
The hypothesis put forward is that their collectivist culture evolved as a way to short-circuit that widespread genetic vulnerability to depression:
... It's hard to figure out why you're so adamant about arguing with me. That's the second article you've posted which actually supports my position, rather than refuting it.

So. Whats this then? Asians, according to this one, are genetically more susceptible to depression but have a lower incidence.

Now think about it. Do the maths.
Which factor has more influence? Culture, or genetic?

If you really look at all the graphs posted here, all the articles linked, compare the incidences among differing cultural groups and then look at incidences prior to the last 50 years or so, the inescapable conclusion is that while genetics pay a part, it is rather small when compared to cultural and social influence. There is nothing you or anyone else has posted here which would refute that.


So...
there is some manner of some control in some sufferers of mental illness.
You can italicise the "some" all you like, but the numbers speak for themselves. I'll ask you one more time:
If you think it is so much a genetic condition as opposed to a mental state, then explain the sharp rise in the last few decades.
An exponential explosion of bad genes amongst a very few cultures?

Look at the relatively flat line prior to 1950 or so. There is your true incidence of depression and suicide. If you do the research, I'd guess you'd find the incidence was around the same as those cultures which are reported to have a "low" rate in modern times. Those would be real cases of genuine depression which would require medical intervention.
Problem is, we have no way of knowing who is who anymore, do we?

I have said all along (and let's not go too far into who is ignoring who here) that I am not saying it doesn't exist.
What I am saying is that society has made it into a thing far more dangerous than it actually is.


But the fact of the matter is, severity really varies. Like any other illness. It's not a standard-size straightjacket.I never said it was.


If you're determined to ignore the scientific data I keep posting about the structural brain changes..
Which may or may not specifically relate to depression. What you're doing is taking research done on other mental condition and trying to apply it here.

Having said that, I am not ignoring it. I simply haven't seen anything much to make me second guess my opinion on the matter.
Look:

Mindfulness meditation focuses on nonjudgmental awareness of one's feelings, sensations and state of mind, which often results in greater peacefulness and relaxation,
So. We can do it ourselves, huh? We can change our own outlook on life?

Well... gee. I'll ask again. Why are you arguing with me?


If you are going to look at one data point I used, and take it entirely out of context...
Which one?


If you are going to post no links refuting me but feel free to be disrespectful to me anyway...
I'm speaking from observation and experience. I have a certain confidence in my own opinions.

Besides, I hardly need to post any links. You're doing my work for me.


Why, then you are fully worthy of of your place on my ignore list sir.
Go for it. Good luck getting better.

chimpkin
08-24-11, 07:33 AM
Right. How many times have I said that some people are more disposed to it than others, now?

I wouldn't know, you hit my ignore list in the last thread.


Correct. The unfortunate thing about this being that your view of what is wrong with society and mine do not appear to coincide.
:bawl: Aww...You know what they say opinions are like...everyone's got one.. They quite often stink...


... It's hard to figure out why you're so adamant about arguing with me. That's the second article you've posted which actually supports my position, rather than refuting it.

Because your opinion is entirely un-nuanced.


So. Whats this then? Asians, according to this one, are genetically more susceptible to depression but have a lower incidence.

Now think about it. Do the maths.
Which factor has more influence? Culture, or genetic?

So, you favor forcing collectivism on Westerners?
(Thinks something about a lead balloon)


If you really look at all the graphs posted here, all the articles linked, compare the incidences among differing cultural groups and then look at incidences prior to the last 50 years or so, the inescapable conclusion is that while genetics pay a part, it is rather small when compared to cultural and social influence. There is nothing you or anyone else has posted here which would refute that.

Genetics play a part, culture plays a part, biology plays a part. This doesn't mean that the individual can magically pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, as you seem to think.
You're reading the data...but through the filter of your preconceived bias that depression is something that can be overcome through changing the way one thinks alone.
Mild depression...yeah. Maybe even moderate depression...Severe, recurring depression?
Not likely.



You can italicise the "some" all you like, but the numbers speak for themselves. I'll ask you one more time:
If you think it is so much a genetic condition as opposed to a mental state, then explain the sharp rise in the last few decades.
An exponential explosion of bad genes amongst a very few cultures?

No, I would actually argue that a lot of it is due to social atomization causing depression. Also less physical activity, as physical activity sets endorphins loose.

OTOH there's still organic factors that underlie what goes on in the brain, as with any other mental illness.


Look at the relatively flat line prior to 1950 or so. There is your true incidence of depression and suicide. If you do the research, I'd guess you'd find the incidence was around the same as those cultures which are reported to have a "low" rate in modern times.


Those would be real cases of genuine depression which would require medical intervention.

Wataminute...Marquis.Did you actually just say completed suicides are fakers and didn't need psychiatric attention? Jeebus man, they offed themselves!



Which may or may not specifically relate to depression. What you're doing is taking research done on other mental condition and trying to apply it here.

I linked research on the brain changes involved in depression earlier in the farking thread.:mad: Apparently you were too busy whaling on me to go back and read that bit.


So. We can do it ourselves, huh? We can change our own outlook on life?

Sometimes. To some degree. Not always, in every degree.


Well... gee. I'll ask again. Why are you arguing with me?

Because your view is entirely too absolutist.


I'm speaking from observation and experience
Uh-huh, you're on a science forum...and you know jolly well anecdote is not evidence.

I have a certain confidence in my own opinions.
Yeah, you take evidence and oversimplify it, omit what absolutely does not support you points, then pat yourself on the back...watch for shoulder strain.

The Marquis
08-24-11, 07:41 AM
I've seen Asguard called a ghoul.
The same person said that he, or his attitude, makes them physically sick.

Most probably this goes back further than this thread and the preceding thread, but what can he have done to deserve such abuse?
It's not an isolated incident, no. After a while, you build up a "feel" for someone.


One thing which seems to be really bad, is for him to have said that he would rather be physically ill and happy, than healthy in body but not in mind.

Is that so hard to understand?
No, it isn't. Unfortunately, though, this is not what he said. He said, and then reiterated, and tried to support with links, that having depression was as bad as having cancer.

You paraphrased above to make it more acceptable to you. Good on ya. Don't expect me to fall for it.


I have known a few people confined to wheelchairs who are content, on balance, with what life has given them. Of course, they would like to walk, but if I asked them whether they would prefer to be able to walk but at the same time be chronically depressed, I'm sure that they would stick with the status quo.
Oh for...
How many times....

Having cancer is not being "confined to a wheelchair". Going back to where all this started, Jani... is not "confined to a wheelchair". Has that not been said a half dozen times already?

Besides which, I'll take the ability to walk and have depression. For me, fixing that when it occurs is like changing a tyre for you.
I know how. Simple as that.
Shame curing paraplegia isn't so simple, really.


Now. What else has he said that makes him such a target?
Don't care to look. The guys a self-pitying little weasel.
Go look for yourself, if you care so much.

visceral_instinct
08-24-11, 07:50 AM
As much as it pains me to agree with anything Marquis says, I think Western societies could use a small bit more community mindedness. I won't say collectivism because that's the wrong word - I certainly don't think what we need is a society where you can't move without having to consider what other people will think of you.

But more civic mindedness would be really nice. What I see out the window doesn't seem to be a society any more - more like a competition where the fittest get what they like and everyone else can go hang.

chimpkin
08-24-11, 08:01 AM
As much as it pains me to agree with anything Marquis says, I think Western societies could use a small bit more community mindedness. I won't say collectivism because that's the wrong word - I certainly don't think what we need is a society where you can't move without having to consider what other people will think of you.

But more civic mindedness would be really nice. What I see out the window doesn't seem to be a society any more - more like a competition where the fittest get what they like and everyone else can go hang.

Same here.
I try to take care of other people in part for just this reason...I don't like a society where those who are in need aren't helped.

Hopefully I'll pull myself together more and help more people later. As it is I get little kicks from helping people out with little stuff, makes me feel like my existence is justified.
I was under the impression Marquis is one of those "pull yourself up by your own jockstrap" types though. All a personal failing of the sufferer.

You know...it occurred to me.

The whole point of this thread was to try to ameliorate stigma.
It did not.
Therefore I'd say it qualifies as a waste of time. I mean, All the stuff I rummaged up on fMRI's showing how the brain changes dependent on what type of psych illness you have?

I already pretty much knew that...although I could have swore it was ventricular cavitation in depression, not frontal lobe deterioration. Hypothalamus shrinkage also. Schizophrenia, loss of gray matter throughout. Bipolar, deterioration of frontal cortex...
And I just rattled that off, right?

And because it does have familial and social factors that influence development...that does not then mean that the sufferer can control the course of their illness, any more than that person can control their society.

Yes there are mental and therapeutic techniques to overcome some mental illnesses, some of the time...and they may or may not work.
Medications may or may not work.
Sometimes life serves you nuts.

The Marquis
08-24-11, 08:23 AM
I wouldn't know, you hit my ignore list in the last thread.
Right. And so you come back now, presumably having taken me off this ignore list in the meantime, and decide to reply assuming you knew what I meant without actually having read any of it.
Nice work. Intelligent stuff.
Fairly commensurate logic I'd expect from those who'd rather stick their head in the sand than actually try to confront things.


:bawl: Aww...You know what they say opinions are like...everyone's got one..
Surprising. I doubt even those who don't like me here would assume I was the one crying.

I'm sure you're aware by now of my own opinion on what "they" say.
I'll tell you what I say in response to that.

You have your opinion.
I have mine.
One of us is right.
The other is wrong.
We are not both wrong simply because we both have opinions.

So "they" are full of guano.
Clear?

And don't think I didn't notice your dodge.


Because your opinion is entirely un-nuanced.
Which makes a difference how, exactly?
I mean, it's quite apparent you haven't even thought about the ramifications to your own position of those articles you're posting.
God forbid I'd expect you to understand nuance if I were to introduce it into my own posts.


So, you favor forcing collectivism on Westerners?
(Thinks something about a lead balloon)
No. Your article concluded it had something to do with collectivism. While acknowledging that Asian societies in general are more collective than western, I did not come to the same conclusion.

This does not mean that the data they used in coming to that conclusion is invalid.


Genetics play a part, culture plays a part, biology plays a part. This doesn't mean that the individual can magically pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, as you seem to think.
Want to bet on that, Sunshine? *smiles*.
Know something, Chimp? The very reason you can't, is in no small part due to the attitude shown in what you wrote above.


No, I would actually argue that a lot of it is due to social atomization causing depression. Also less physical activity, as physical activity sets endorphins loose.
Errr... yes. Social and cultural factors, right?

I'm getting rather impatient with you, you know.


Wataminute...Marquis.Did you actually just say completed suicides are fakers and didn't need psychiatric attention? Jeebus man, they offed themselves!
Actually.. no. I didn't.
I said basically that the instances of genetically-influenced depression would be more accurately measured prior to the explosion of the last few decades.

In fact... I didn't say anything like what you just wrote there.


I linked research on the brain changes involved in depression earlier in the farking thread.:mad: Apparently you were too busy whaling on me to go back and read that bit.
I might go look, later. Might have missed one.
I'm expecting more of the same, though.
Please surprise me.


Sometimes. To some degree. Not always, in every degree.
*laugfhs* You'll even back down from your own conclusions if it means you agree with me, won't you?


Because your view is entirely too absolutist.
Nope. It has far more to do with you not liking me much. Be honest now, lad.


Uh-huh, you're on a science forum...and you know jolly well anecdote is not evidence.
Of course it isn't. That's why I haven't made any anecdotes... and have come down rather hard on those who did.

I'll tell you a little secret. Those guys who get themselves published? They formed opinions, first. that's how they knew what to write about so they could get published in the first place.
(Don't tell anyone).

... seriously. Sciforums. This thread. A science forum?
Heh.


Yeah, you take evidence and oversimplify it, omit what absolutely does not support you points, then pat yourself on the back...watch for shoulder strain.
You mean, as opposed to you trying to deny whats in front of your face because it doesn't fit with your own view of yourself.

I'll say it again. Culture and social influence have far more influence on instances of depression (and hence suicide) than pure genetic susceptibility does.

Now. Sit down, take a deep breath, and tell me exactly how that is incorrect, given those articles you've posted.

While you're at it, show me the parts of that you posted which "absolutely" does not support my points.

Go ahead. I'm going down the shop; take your time.

The Marquis
08-24-11, 08:24 AM
As much as it pains me to agree with anything Marquis says, I think Western societies could use a small bit more community mindedness.
Set your mind at ease, lass.

I didn't say anything of the sort.

Anti-Flag
08-24-11, 08:57 AM
I've seen Asguard called a ghoul.
The same person said that he, or his attitude, makes them physically sick.

Most probably this goes back further than this thread and the preceding thread, but what can he have done to deserve such abuse?

One thing which seems to be really bad, is for him to have said that he would rather be physically ill and happy, than healthy in body but not in mind.

Is that so hard to understand?

I have known a few people confined to wheelchairs who are content, on balance, with what life has given them. Of course, they would like to walk, but if I asked them whether they would prefer to be able to walk but at the same time be chronically depressed, I'm sure that they would stick with the status quo.


Now. What else has he said that makes him such a target?
You missed out "moron".
Essentially he just expressed a view that a mod took offence to so unpunishable abuse shall follow. So sayeth the great book of sciforums. ;)
I was once told by a mod that it doesn't matter if the person is what you call them, or if you are rightfully offended, an insult is still classed as flaming.
I expect this will be ignored as I openly admit to rarely taking things seriously here for stated reasons, and I'm sure they label me "troll" as a somewhat convenient excuse. Coincidence I'm sure.

Captain Kremmen
08-24-11, 09:04 AM
No, it isn't. Unfortunately, though, this is not what he said. He said, and then reiterated, and tried to support with links, that having depression was as bad as having cancer.



So which is worse, having Cancer or Depression?
Is he saying that one is worse than the other?
And are you saying that one is better than the other?
Is that the argument?

It's ridiculous.
It is like one of those stupid discussions children or drunk people engage in.

Which would you choose? To lose your left arm and your right leg, or your right arm and your left leg?
If some insane God or despot or fellow drunkard made you choose, I suppose you'd have to make a choice.

Bells
08-24-11, 09:05 AM
You missed out "moron".
Essentially he just expressed a view that a mod took offence to so unpunishable abuse shall follow. So sayeth the great book of sciforums. ;)
I was once told by a mod that it doesn't matter if the person is what you call them, or if you are rightfully offended, an insult is still classed as flaming.
I expect this will be ignored as I openly admit to rarely taking things seriously here for stated reasons, and I'm sure they label me "troll" as a somewhat convenient excuse. Coincidence I'm sure.

Oh no, not at all. This has been going on for several weeks now.

Then again, you are looking at just this one incident. Asguard has had it in for me for a while now and this is yet another go.

Only this time, he not only misrepresented everything I said, he also lied.

There comes a point where enough is enough and yes, push me hard enough, I will bite back.

You have a problem with how I spoke to him, take it to admin.

Captain Kremmen
08-24-11, 09:09 AM
You missed out "moron".
Essentially he just expressed a view that a mod took offence to so unpunishable abuse shall follow. So sayeth the great book of sciforums. ;)
I was once told by a mod that it doesn't matter if the person is what you call them, or if you are rightfully offended, an insult is still classed as flaming.
I expect this will be ignored as I openly admit to rarely taking things seriously here for stated reasons, and I'm sure they label me "troll" as a somewhat convenient excuse. Coincidence I'm sure.

Which Mod? I don't think any of these people are mods.
Could very well be wrong.
I'm not sure who are mods and who aren't.
I know some of them of course. Trippy, Fraggle, JamesR, Alphanumeric.
How many are there?
Is there a list anywhere?

Bells
08-24-11, 09:19 AM
So which is worse, having Cancer or Depression?
Is he saying that one is worse than the other?
And are you saying that one is better than the other?
Is that the argument?

It's ridiculous.
It is like one of those stupid discussions children or drunk people engage in.

Which would you choose? To lose your left arm and your right leg, or your right arm and your left leg?

Had you taken the time to go back and read where all this is stemming from, you would have seen that Asguard started off by saying in the thread about "January" that people pity the parents more and how it happens to him. Then he commented that (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2798152&postcount=7):


Personally i would rather have cancer than have depression because at least people wouldnt act like its my fault.

We were at that point talking about a child born with schizophrenia and in almost a permanent psychosis state. Apparently showing pity to her parents was like when people pitied his parents when he tried to kill himself.. Then the cancer comment.. Thus began the long journey which sees us here now.

He started this thread on the premise that I disregarded depression and did not value it as an illness.. Why? Because I told him that a child born with schizophrenia could not really compare to someone with depression. Why? Because you can't compare diseases.. It's not a competition.

Just as you can't compare cancer to depression or cancer to a heart attack for example. Each is bad in their own way.

Now, apparently this is wrong.

So Asguard began on his journey to tell me how he had been suffering from depression for 10 years and how that obviously makes him sicker than me, for example, because I'd had cancer and only depressed for what he assumed was 6 months. This is after constant reminders from me, that you cannot or should not compare illnesses. Each is bad in their own way. But no, he calls me childish.. And again misrepresents what I had said.

I re-iterate again. At no time did I say that depression was not a debilitating illness and that it did not at times lead to suicide. Not once. What I did say was that this child could not compare to him because her illness is so much more different. This child has absolutely no choice or say in what she does or thinks..

Yes, this has been going on for weeks and frankly, after being lied about and constantly misrepresented, I have had enough. Which has culminated in his latest posts, which yes, where he tells me that he has more "experience" with being sick. Because you know, it's like a fucking job interview or a competition.

So maybe you may want to tell him that his argument is ridiculous. Be warned though, you may find yourself a target like I have been when he switches his gaze onto you.

Bells
08-24-11, 09:20 AM
Which Mod? I don't think any of these people are mods.
Could very well be wrong.
I'm not sure who are mods and who aren't.
I know some of them of course. Trippy, Fraggle, JamesR, Alphanumeric.
How many are there?
Is there a list anywhere?

I am the mod of this forum.

However, as soon as Asguard started this thread, I advised the admin and my fellow moderators that they would be reviewing this thread, and yes, myself as well.

chimpkin
08-24-11, 09:32 AM
I'll say it again. Culture and social influence have far more influence on instances of depression (and hence suicide) than pure genetic susceptibility does.

That part I...will partly agree with.

But, unless I am missing your point, the conclusion you draw from that is that therefore, all we have to do is to overcome it with sheer willpower.

And what I am telling you is that that this opinion is not supported.

The basic difference of opinion, in a nutshell, here is that you believe the dramatic upswing in depression is due to an epidemic of whiners.

What I'm telling you is that we're having an epidemic of depression, and that while there may be sociocultural factors influencing that development...that does not mean the brain changes or need for treatment are not real.

Here is what I linked regarding brain changes pertaining to depression alone:


In depression (relinking) there seem to be an abnormality in two types of brain cells:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0505071039.htm
And it's been associated with thinning of the right cortex (if I remember correctly, memories are formed on the outer surface...why when I was once knocked out from a blow to the forehead, I don't remember the preceding few seconds.)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/health/25brain.html


As far as the rest goes, I have occasionally been clicking on "view post."
I'll stop being aggravated now.
If you must call me names, though, which you will note I did not do to you, at least attempt to get the gender correct. Maybe the age too, I'm two years shy of 40. I don't think "lad" or "sunshine" are terribly respectful, please do not refer to me as such again.

As for getting better...this afternoon I'll be getting the assistance of someone with a Master's in Clinical Social Work.
As highly as you think of your opinion, she has a master's in helping people get better.
I'm going to get better. Different meds, more therapy, eventually a better job...back to school in the spring I hope..
I'm obligated. Others.
:shrug:
You presume what you know about Asguard in his posting behavior...is the entirety of who he is and an adequate method upon which to judge him. Probably do the same of me as well.
You don't know us.
And you don't seem open to figuring out what it's like to be someone with Major Depressive Disorder.
You're going to tell us how we are. Based on what sounds like a mild depressive episode.

You yourself are fairly abusive in your posting habits, Marquis, which is one of the reasons I put you on ignore in the first place. Regret clicking. Really regret it.

If I wanted abuse I can go reopen my Fark account.

wynn
08-24-11, 09:49 AM
Because I already dealt with it a long time ago. I simply shared here to make a point...

You insist on a misrepresentation of my intentions here.
That is unkind of you.

Captain Kremmen
08-24-11, 09:53 AM
I am the mod of this forum.

However, as soon as Asguard started this thread, I advised the admin and my fellow moderators that they would be reviewing this thread, and yes, myself as well.



I think you have over-reacted.
I've been on this forum for quite a long while now,
and it's out of character for you to abuse people.

For someone to say that they would prefer six months of terminal cancer to a lifetime of depression, indicates suicidal tendencies.


@ Marquis. Yes , looking through, I think he has been backtracking.
But to you I would say to do as he asked, cut him some slack.
He's not well.

wynn
08-24-11, 09:56 AM
Invalidating is the precise word, but that's edging on psych field jargon.

You are the one invalidating yourself.


That is my point.

Depressed people are depressed because they keep invalidating themselves.

Referring to official studies and such is just one form of invalidating yourself.



The sooner you let this bit of information through, the sooner you'll get better.

The Marquis
08-24-11, 09:59 AM
So which is worse....
You're just intent on missing the point altogether, aren't you?

The Marquis
08-24-11, 10:17 AM
@ Marquis. Yes , looking through, I think he has been backtracking.
But to you I would say to do as he asked, cut him some slack.
He's not well.
Ah, you got this in first.

Cut him some slack?
No.

There is a term for it... someone might have even mentioned it here, or in the other thread. Where a person actually begins to use the sympathy as a justification to continue behaving in a certain manner, as a ... shield, of sorts. The word "lamb" springs to mind. I don't remember what the term was.
You're looking at it.

As long as he continues to receive support, he's not going to be anything other than what he is. They're probably furiously exchanging pm's as I type... mutual reinforcement.
It's a part of the social factors I've been talking about.

I'm not going to pretend I like that, or him, simply because he's... unwell.
That is dishonest. Like watching all the members of a family who hated their father turning up at his funeral and tearfully saying he wasn't such a bad bloke after all.

Screw that.

wynn
08-24-11, 10:21 AM
If you're determined to ignore the scientific data I keep posting about the structural brain changes..

Yes, I am ignoring them and I will keep ignoring them.

Because that scientific data is about some other people, not about you.

We here are talking about you.

You, however, are victimizing yourself with all that stuff from psychology, sociology, anthropology etc.

Captain Kremmen
08-24-11, 10:22 AM
Ah, you got this in first.



No.
I didn't "Get it in first"
I made a response to an earlier post.
Talk about egocentric.

As for pms.
Not interested.
My arguments are in the open.

Are you saying that there is some kind of
support group working here, which is defending mentally ill people, and allowing them to
be dependant upon society?
Possibly to blame others when they should blame themselves.
I'm not sure what your position is.

wynn
08-24-11, 10:31 AM
@ Marquis. Yes , looking through, I think he has been backtracking.
But to you I would say to do as he asked, cut him some slack.
He's not well.

As things currently stand, of course he is not well.

But part of why he is not well is because people have been cutting him slack.

And to abruptly stop cutting him slack would, of course, hurt.


I think we should insist that he, for starters, improve his spelling.
This is a written-only environment.
The least one can do, by way of respect for one's fellow posters, is to learn to spell.

People who write poorly also tend to have poor understanding.
If he reads as poorly as he spells - then what is the point to participate in an online forum where all communication is written?

I understand that he is dyslexic. But people with dyslexia should reconsider whether it makes sense to engage in activities that require skills they do not have. So they should either improve their skills, or focus on activities that are not adversely affected by dyslexia.

I have seen Asguard get upset numerous times. Not rarely, the cause seems to be that he doesn't really understand what he reads.

wynn
08-24-11, 10:33 AM
As for getting better...this afternoon I'll be getting the assistance of someone with a Master's in Clinical Social Work.

Show her this thread. Seriously.




You presume what you know about Asguard in his posting behavior...is the entirety of who he is and an adequate method upon which to judge him. Probably do the same of me as well.
You don't know us.
And you don't seem open to figuring out what it's like to be someone with Major Depressive Disorder.
You're going to tell us how we are. Based on what sounds like a mild depressive episode.

And I am telling you that you are victimizing yourself by talking like that.
It's not kind to us either.

parmalee
08-24-11, 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by parmalee
I like to own up to my actions, my behaviors, my temperament, and "take responsibility" for all that shit. But at the same time, sometimes I've gotta wonder how the hell I'm "responsible" for all of that.

My view is that people who end up diagnosed (by themselves or doctors) as "mentall ill," are people who have a heightened sensitivity.
This sensitivity can be an asset, or a liability, depending on numerous factors - from how other people treat such a person, to the person's own actions.

It seems they try really hard to "be like everyone else" - and it is not helping them. In fact, nobody who tries to "be like everyone else" seems to fare particularly well.

My view is that the "bored housewife" and the "average Joe" are using the same strategies of denial, depressing, self-hatred and such as those who are "mentally ill". These strategies are common, they are even popularily considered "normal". Of course, Freud would, for example, say they are not, but that they are neurotic.

Except that people who end up diagnosed (by themselves or doctors) as "mentall ill" are able to practice those strategies to a greater extent. They, sort of, simply reach the goal of those strategies earlier, given their heightened sensitivity.

The goal of those strategies being something like "If I feel bad about myself, then I am a good person." A "basic lesson" most of us have learned early on.


There is nothing wrong with you!!

Except maybe thinking that there is something wrong with you. :o

I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you here, but just pointing out that I was actually referring to things that I do whilst unconscious. It would seem that I've done an awful lot of things while unconscious over the years--including recording most of the basic tracks for a solo album. Seizure, fugue state, automatic "writing" (in the broad sense), whateverthehell "they" choose to call it, I have no recollection of these "episodes" and only learn of them if other parties were present or if I've left "traces" (i.e., a reel of tape that replete with "wonderful" music that I've no recollection of recording or performing). And, of course, when more than one party is present, I often get conflicting reports as to what in fact I actually did.

It's kind of odd accepting "responsibility" for something I did when I, or "I," wasn't really "present."

I'm at fault here though, as I was discussing a neurological phenomenon which sometimes manifests as more of a psychiatric phenomenon.

parmalee
08-24-11, 10:40 AM
What, I don't get credit for bringing it up first because you don't like me much?

I demand recognition!.

*... or I'll get all depressed.

My apologies. I see that you did in fact say as much on page 1, so I'll add that I also wholly concur with you (on that particular point).

I had a hell of a time trying to make sense of the OP, so I simply jumped immediately to page 2 and consequently overlooked your post initially.

The Marquis
08-24-11, 11:24 AM
But, unless I am missing your point, the conclusion you draw from that is that therefore, all we have to do is to overcome it with sheer willpower.

And what I am telling you is that that this opinion is not supported.
Actually, in many quarters it is.
To use your own argument against you, you're oversimplifying the matter.
Do I believe that there are some who it wouldn't work for? Absolutely. I've said as much more than once.
Do I believe there are more than a few for whom it would work, but they hardly even try because it's ok to be depressed now? Yes. I do.
And when I say "try", I don't mean that fat guy eating donuts walking once around the block every week and thinking he's done all he can because it's so hard. I know it's hard. Do it anyway.


The basic difference of opinion, in a nutshell, here is that you believe the dramatic upswing in depression is due to an epidemic of whiners.A large part of it, yes.
What did the guy say in your article?
Black kids, who in decades past actually did have less than wonderful lives for the most part, did not expect anything more than what they had. They didn't have that feeling of entitlement that people have these days.
The bad times came; they dealt with it. It was life.
But now they're starting to take on the attitudes of the white kids, as society moves closer to a semblance of equality. It isn't doing them any favours. They expect comfort, security, and to some extent happiness, as a right instead of something they have to work toward.
They don't get it, and what happens? They can't cope anymore. The mechanisms in place a few decades ago are simply no longer there.

If you read Asguard in any great depth, you'll see a common thread in his posts... he wants to be protected. Laws, to prevent him from being sacked, from not making as much money as the next guy, from being treated in manner he deems to be unfair. People like him want the entire world to be a fluffy cushion, where "someone" will "do something" when things go bad.

Reality has a way of having a say about that. Same thing applies - a time comes when they actually have to do something for themselves, when there is no one around to help...and they have absolutely no idea how to go about it. Some of them end up just imploding.

You think it's a coincidence that the more protective and secure a society gets, the less people know how to deal with adversity?
They call it the "instant gratification" generation". Look at the results.

I come from a different generation. If I was being precious, people let me know about it. Funny how that coincided with a time when suicides and depression weren't as common as they are now.
Are there other factors in play? Sure.
Does that invalidate this point? No. It does not.
Just take a look at the arguments being offered in "defence" in court cases now. Guy has a hard childhood, kills a few people and suddenly he's got more rights than his victims families have if he retains the services of a talented lawyer with the ability to induce a few tears in the jury. And shall we get into litigation for "psychological trauma and pain" from being sacked because your boss didn't like you much?

I'll tell you straight out. People now seem far weaker to me than they were a few decades back. Your great-grandmothers would have mopped the floor with you lot and sat down for a nice cup of tea afterwards.


What I'm telling you is that we're having an epidemic of depression, and that while there may be sociocultural factors influencing that development...that does not mean the brain changes or need for treatment are not real.

Here is what I linked regarding brain changes pertaining to depression alone:
You also linked other articles saying basically that you could change it yourself. Meditiation? That's one way. There are plenty of others.
You are not looking at a permanent change. The brain is a far more powerful organ than you give it credit for. Use it.


As far as the rest goes, I have occasionally been clicking on "view post."
I'll stop being aggravated now.
If you must call me names, though, which you will note I did not do to you, at least attempt to get the gender correct. Maybe the age too, I'm two years shy of 40. I don't think "lad" or "sunshine" are terribly respectful, please do not refer to me as such again.
See? There's another part of the problem.
You all think you deserve respect by default. It's become an almost inalienable "right". There was a time, however, you had to earn it.


As for getting better...this afternoon I'll be getting the assistance of someone with a Master's in Clinical Social Work.
As highly as you think of your opinion, she has a master's in helping people get better.
Seen a thousand uni graduates come and go. Some of them were worth something, some weren't.
All that piece of paper means, particularly with regard to psychology, is that someone learned enough of what they were being told to pass a test.
You better hope they were told the right things. As for myself, I'll stick to my opinions... until such time as someone proves me wrong.


You presume what you know about Asguard in his posting behavior...is the entirety of who he is and an adequate method upon which to judge him. Probably do the same of me as well.
You don't know us.
I don't know you. And I'm not one of those who is going to pretend I care so much about a total stranger. I judge what I see - we all do. Some of us are just a little more honest about it.


And you don't seem open to figuring out what it's like to be someone with Major Depressive Disorder.
All in capitals.

You're going to tell us how we are. Based on what sounds like a mild depressive episode.
Sure. I haven't been all open and weepy about it, you know, sharing and all that. So I never had it that bad.
I am quite certain that in your world, this world where depression is through the roof and every man and his dog has a psychologist on speed dial, that's quite a normal thing to think.
I couldn't possibly have done it without the help of some guy sitting behind a desk with a framed degree in full view, or a pack of sympathetic "friends", could I?


You yourself are fairly abusive in your posting habits, Marquis, which is one of the reasons I put you on ignore in the first place. Regret clicking. Really regret it.
Yes, I am... or at least I can be. It rather depends on the circumstances, and who I'm speaking to. Already told you, you can ignore me if you want. I really don't care, you know.

I will say this, though. Don't think it's about you.
"You" just represent something I've grown to dislike rather intensely. Asguard was my main target, but he's run away now and there you were trying to defend him. That's all there was to it.

That help? I'm trying to be nice, here.

chimpkin
08-24-11, 01:11 PM
We here are talking about you.
You are STILL trying to fix me?
Please stop.

Your efforts to do so have ended in miscommunication and pain on this end enough times, and your communication style has not been seen to adapt to me telling you so.
In fact I get the impression you blame me for a failure to take your suggestions and magically get all better now. I had depression symptoms as a 10-year old, I just wasn't suicidally desirous until 11...I remember trying to strangle myself in the school bathroom...
Not exactly going to magically get better, no.

PTSD, not magically going to get all better either...not likely to stop having flashbacks, random cases of shakes. I will still be terrified by close relationships and constantly fight the urge to get out of them.
(BTW
Now that I think about it, I have read "Women Who Love Too Much," back in the mid-90's. Not terribly useful.)

Wow...this thread. It is just so F*ing awesome.
Mental health stigma...

You know, I've said that when I get my brain better managed, I would not mind modding this subforum. Because between my half a sociology degree, all the reading I've done, and all the therapeutic work I've done, I know a huge amount of crap about psychology. Before the culture went toxic I hung out on a mental health forum for three years also...so I ended up on a lot of those perennial "don't do yourself in, go get help" threads. Usually a couple of those a week. Hung out and was friends with all sorts of nutters over there...miss it, but I got whomped on by a mod off her meds one day, and t'was the last straw...
(Now at a big social networking site...I pop across about 1-2 suicidal postings a day. I get to to do the daily shoring of the depressives thing. Helluva hobby:bugeye:)

I thought I'd be able to contribute a lot of knowledge regarding social sciences in general...Psychology and practical therapeutic techniques in specific.

My attitude towards getting better is Rooseveltian: " We'll try this one...and if that doesn't work, why we'll try something else." No one thing magically fixes everybody, and magic bullet fixes generally only happen with low-level problems.

Anyway...regarding modding and this thread...this thread has made me think that, rather than modding this subforum.... it would be a bit faster to go to my neighbor's and ask to roll around in the fresh cowpats.

Orleander
08-24-11, 06:21 PM
I think there is a mental health stigma because its so unpredictable. Maybe even more so when the ill person refuses medical help. I can't be hurt by someone else's cancer, but I can be hurt by some one else's mental illness

chimpkin
08-24-11, 06:50 PM
I can't be hurt by someone else's cancer, but I can be hurt by some one else's mental illness

There is that...and I do think mentally ill people have to take responsibility for getting treatment, whatever form that takes, and managing their own conditions. There is always going to be medical stuff to do, behavioral, nutritional, and interpersonal tactics that will help manage mental conditions to maximal functionality...and no, the doctors may supply the medical component, but they are not going to kick your butt out of bed to go for a run, or make you put down the booze.

(I guess maybe other people view it as dependency on the doctors?
Whereas the pro-treatment mentally-ill culture view the docs, the meds, and the therapies as a tool we use...this is what I mean by "taking ownership of one's treatment," BTW. We are not going before the altar of medicine or something, we would like our sh!t fixed, thanks, so we pay a repairperson.)

I do note that mentally ill people are far more likely to be victims than threats though:


People with mental illness were eight times more likely to be robbed, 15 times more likely to be assaulted, and 23 times more likely to be raped than was the general population.


“The direction of causality is the reverse of common belief: persons who are seriously mentally ill are far more likely to be the victims of violence than its initiators,” said Leon Eisenberg, M.D., professor emeritus of social medicine and health policy at Harvard Medical School,

http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/40/17/16.full

One of my friends from the old forum was very angry about the idea of forced medding...I think someone needs to be a proven threat before you take their civil rights away like that...admittedly this means some people will injure others. I don't like that.
But I do not like the broad removal of a person's civil rights either, nutter or no.

Anti-Flag
08-24-11, 07:50 PM
Oh no, not at all. This has been going on for several weeks now.

Then again, you are looking at just this one incident. Asguard has had it in for me for a while now and this is yet another go.

Only this time, he not only misrepresented everything I said, he also lied.

There comes a point where enough is enough and yes, push me hard enough, I will bite back.

You have a problem with how I spoke to him, take it to admin.
Can't you put him on ignore? Or just not read his posts if you know he gets on your nerves so much? :shrug:
It's no secret you two don't see eye to eye, and whilst I don't blame you for being frustrated I was led to believe it isn't acceptable to insult posters in such a manner, regardless of the conditions or if we all lose our temper sometimes.
If I have to take it to an admin then sure. I wouldn't say you're frequently guilty of this by any stretch, so it's nothing personal, but mods seem to be given more leeway than your average user, so hopefully the thread review provides or sets a standard for consistency, and I do appreciate that you accept potential moderation of your posts as part of that.


Which Mod? I don't think any of these people are mods.
Could very well be wrong.
I'm not sure who are mods and who aren't.
I know some of them of course. Trippy, Fraggle, JamesR, Alphanumeric.
How many are there?
Is there a list anywhere?
As Bells said, she is the mod here. I know who a number of mods are(or were), but not the forums they're responsible for. I believe it's displayed under each subforum though.
I'm really speaking in more general terms when I speak of mods and consistency, it's just unfortunate Bells is the mod in question making insults this time.
As far as I know infractions and warnings are private anyway, but for what some people have been banned or warned for there's some question over consistency IMO.
Obviously I don't keep a log of all activities, and I don't venture through every post made each day to make one so would probably be unfair to do so. It's just things I've happened to notice here. If others haven't, then fair enough.

I feel like such a bastard(self insult, post-modern acceptability) pointing it out though.

Bells
08-24-11, 08:27 PM
Can't you put him on ignore? Or just not read his posts if you know he gets on your nerves so much? :shrug:
It's no secret you two don't see eye to eye, and whilst I don't blame you for being frustrated I was led to believe it isn't acceptable to insult posters in such a manner, regardless of the conditions or if we all lose our temper sometimes.


This is not the first time he has directly targetted me in this fashion. Hence why as soon as he did it, I advised my colleagues that I wanted reviews.

As I said, there is only so much one can take before one bites back. And maybe that is his intention, who knows. But for me, enough is enough. He has pushed me hard enough over the course of probably over a year now. This is the straw that broke the camel's back. Hence why I immediately advised my colleagues that I wanted a review as soon as he started this thread. Because he not only misrepresented what I said in the other thread, by claiming that I was dismissing depression when what I had said to him was that you cannot compare depression to child onset schizophrenia and that comparing illnesses does not work.

When someone gets to the point where they are touting their "experience" with being sick, again in a bid to compare.. Yes, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. So yes, I am awaiting moderation and a review. Which is why I did not remove the 'insults' in the first place, because I responded while angry, very angry, and once it's there, it's there.. so I await the review.

You are free to hit the report button, it is sent to the moderator (me) and to the administrators of this site, if you feel I acted out of place. But rest assured, I had already reported myself before I even responded..

Now, having said that, I will close this thread pending the review. If it needs to be cleaned up, it will be and reopened. Or reopened as it stands now. Or remain closed. Lets hope it is quick.

Bells
08-24-11, 08:28 PM
Mod Hat

Thread closed pending administrator review..


::Update::


Review completed..

Thread re-opened.

wynn
08-25-11, 01:43 AM
You are STILL trying to fix me?

No. We are all lays here, and whatever discussions we have here about psychology are necessarily going to be personal, about us.


We cannot talk about psychological issues the way professional psychologists do. We simply do not have the qualifications for that.
There is nothing wrong with that.

But for us to try to mimic their style while we are driven by our own problems - just adds to the problems.



Moreover, me telling you that this is about you
is me giving you a cue on what I think is "wrong" with depressed people:
depressed people invalidate themselves,
this is how they stay depressed.

I have stated my opinion objectively before, in third person, in the form "depressed people invalidate themselves, this is how they stay depressed" or in the form "If one ... then one."

You didn't like that form, you took it personally, as if I said "You are invalidating yourself, this is how you stay depressed."


You are not capable of having an impersonal, objective discussion of opinions on the topic. Because you take it personally.
So I thought okay, let's talk personally then, see how that goes.

Asguard
08-25-11, 02:09 AM
No. We are all lays here, and whatever discussions we have here about psychology are necessarily going to be personal, about us.


We cannot talk about psychological issues the way professional psychologists do. We simply do not have the qualifications for that.
There is nothing wrong with that.

But for us to try to mimic their style while we are driven by our own problems - just adds to the problems.



Moreover, me telling you that this is about you
is me giving you a cue on what I think is "wrong" with depressed people:
depressed people invalidate themselves,
this is how they stay depressed.

I have stated my opinion objectively before, in third person, in the form "depressed people invalidate themselves, this is how they stay depressed" or in the form "If one ... then one."

You didn't like that form, you took it personally, as if I said "You are invalidating yourself, this is how you stay depressed."


You are not capable of having an impersonal, objective discussion of opinions on the topic. Because you take it personally.
So I thought okay, let's talk personally then, see how that goes.

actually your wrong there, as part of my studies i have training both in general psycology and sociology AND in mental health nursing.


However you stated that you belived mental illness was:


My view is that people who end up diagnosed (by themselves or doctors) as "mentall ill," are people who have a heightened sensitivity.


You went on to state



There is nothing wrong with you!!

Except maybe thinking that there is something wrong with you.
(highlighting mine)

and dismissed the views of those very psycologists, occupational theorpists, mental health nurses, paramedics, police, social workers, General practicioners and psychiatrists who work with mental illness on a daily basis.

chimpkin
08-25-11, 02:42 AM
Yes, I guess trying to take it off the personal was a futile thing...
But what I was trying to do was stop the nastiness, as I don't enjoy people that I like, or even people that I dislike, snarling at each other.

Anyway...

It occurs to me to try to talk a little bit about the idea of the active mental health consumer?
I got into it a bit before in the last post...and over on the psych forum, we were all rather into that.

No...I'd say the general membership there did not look to Pdocs(the slang term) as our rescuers necessarily...but as people we worked with to find the best solution for us.

And there were a lot of threads about "Should I fire my Pdoc?"Many times...answer was yes...there's a lot of psychiatrists out there who are incompetent or worse.

I started a thread called "Idiot says what?" for therapist horror stories...my particular one is not so much a horror story but pretty ironic in retrospect...going to a psych ward for six weeks in 1990 in Texas...and being magically transformed into something approximating a drag performer-full makeup, giant hair...they somehow thought this equated to mental health...

And... Aquanet hairspray! made my nose run.

If any of them knew I was a genderqueer/androgyne person now and really fricken' happy to identify as such...:eek:

So...when I go to the doctor I want the doctor to let me say "No, I'm not getting where I want to be, I'm tired all the time, I can't meet my goals...." and then try to find the chemistry and therapy that will get me there.

Not have me say..."Well I'm not thinking about killing myself this month, but I barely get out of the house except to work, and if I died tomorrow I wouldn't care..." and have them decide that's ok.
Which I kinda had happen: "OH! You have a job? Good!"
Ignoring that I have the potential to do MUCH better than my current job...I just need to be more stable.

wynn
08-25-11, 03:48 AM
actually your wrong there, as part of my studies i have training both in general psycology and sociology AND in mental health nursing.

1. You are still a lay.

2. You are still talking about psychology here in reference to yourself.





and dismissed the views of those very psycologists, occupational theorpists, mental health nurses, paramedics, police, social workers, General practicioners and psychiatrists who work with mental illness on a daily basis.

Yeah, because the views of those professionals are really really helping you to get better. :rolleyes:

wynn
08-25-11, 04:06 AM
Yes, I guess trying to take it off the personal was a futile thing...
But what I was trying to do was stop the nastiness, as I don't enjoy people that I like, or even people that I dislike, snarling at each other.

At the end of the day, one is still left to oneself.
Scientific studies and theories come and go, but one remains.


And if one believes "There is something wrong with me" one will never "get better".

For a discussion of this, see for example Tara Brach's "Radical Acceptance" (http://www.amazon.com/Radical-Acceptance-Embracing-Heart-Buddha/dp/0553380990/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314262569&sr=8-1#_), the preview at Amazon has the beginning, esp. "Something is wrong with me" and then "Strategies to manage the pain of inadequacy" (starting with "We embark on one self-improvement project after another" - that should make one think ...).

Orleander
08-25-11, 06:21 AM
There is that...and I do think mentally ill people have to take responsibility for getting treatment, whatever form that takes, and managing their own conditions. There is always going to be medical stuff to do, behavioral, nutritional, and interpersonal tactics that will help manage mental conditions to maximal functionality...and no, the doctors may supply the medical component, but they are not going to kick your butt out of bed to go for a run, or make you put down the booze.....

and what if they don't want to work on their condition? What if they want to blame others for not understanding their condition? Aren't they enforcing the very stigma they say they don't like?

I have great admiration for a certain member here (I miss him) who manages to make it through every day even though its very hard. And manages to do it with a sense of humour instead of whining about how unfair it all is.

chimpkin
08-25-11, 06:50 AM
What if they want to blame others for not understanding their condition?

To some degree, if they are being lazy or non-treatment compliant...I can understand less sympathy.
There are slacker nutters.
Like everybody else.
Some people of perfectly sound mind and body just like to sit on the couch and each potato chips, too.
Personally I take pride in doing my jerb when I am doing terrible...I know crazies get better if they work, but they have to devote extra energy to remaining normal-appearing.
It can be so hard to fake sane some days....

But whether you are or are not doing your optimal managing thing?
It gets frustrating to be told your pain isn't real, or your panic attacks are your fault, or your mania is a failure to control yourself...or that those antipsychotics are just dope you need to get off, even.
People question the existence of mental illness. Not the severity or whatever...some people actually question its' existence.

I dunno, if I want to understand someone, unless they start obviously lying to me, I tend to consider them the fullest witness of how their own life is.

I have been told how my life is in this thread by people who don't even have a history.
There's failure to understand, then there's ignoring explanations for one's own preconceptions.
Preconceptions usually based on heuristics: i.e., what you yourself have had happen or maybe a small group of close people.

For instance...this is all supposition...but say the Marquis moves around in a lot of well-off social circles...he may not have met too many severely depressed people, and so formed his opinion from the mild cases around him.

The recurrently severely depressed have a hard time keeping jobs, and would tend to be really poor. But he would not see too many, since he associates with people of similar socioeconomic status.

wynn
08-25-11, 09:08 AM
and what if they don't want to work on their condition? What if they want to blame others for not understanding their condition? Aren't they enforcing the very stigma they say they don't like?

Some "mental illnesses" seem paradoxical: the person wants help, seeks help - but rejects it when they get it.
This is due to the nature of their particular "mental illness," not because they would be "slackers."


Consider this example:

A wife wants to give up smoking.
The husband encourages her to stop smoking.
She refuses to stop smoking, because she believes she would do it because he told her so and not because it was her own desire to do so; thus by giving up smoking after he told her to, she would feel she lost her independence.

This pattern also occurs sometimes with people who have a mental illness: the person wants to change, but once others tell her to change, she feels reluctant about the change as she believes it would be an act of giving up her own volition.

It is natural that people want to be in charge of themselves.
But they may not be able to deal with instructions from others. This can have to do with their particular locus of control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control) (and related concepts).

(To trick this, Reverse Psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_psychology) is sometimes used.)

wynn
08-25-11, 11:58 PM
Just to be clear:


It gets frustrating to be told your pain isn't real, or your panic attacks are your fault, or your mania is a failure to control yourself...or that those antipsychotics are just dope you need to get off, even.
People question the existence of mental illness. Not the severity or whatever...some people actually question its' existence.

Did I ever say
"Chimpkin, you are not in pain. Your pain is not real." -? No, I did not.

Did I ever say
"Chimpkin, you do nothave suicidal thoughts." -? No, I did not.

Did I ever say
"Chimpkin, you are a loser." -? No, I did not.

Did I ever say
"Chimpkin, your panic attacks are your fault." -? No, I did not.

Did I ever say
"Chimpkin, if you feel like shit, you are shit." -? No, I did not.

Did I ever say
"Chimpkin, completely recover this instant!" -? No, I did not.

But these are things you tend to hear.


You keep saying you are being invalidated (also by me), but you refuse to acknowledge how much you invalidate others. You have several of us on ignore, and you only click to open some posts.
You are saying we are not making an effort - but you don't even read our posts or the links we provide.
This is serious invalidation on your part.

I am not surprised you feel invalidated in return.



Not have me say..."Well I'm not thinking about killing myself this month, but I barely get out of the house except to work, and if I died tomorrow I wouldn't care..." and have them decide that's ok.
Which I kinda had happen: "OH! You have a job? Good!"

Did you tell the therapist how you heard what he/she said?
Did you ask the therapist to explain what he/she meant by "OH! You have a job? Good!"?

chimpkin
08-26-11, 02:04 AM
Something Marquis noted that struck me...our depression skyrocketed in the 50's. When the nuclear family occurred. Before then in the United States everybody was just generally a lot poorer and there was a lot more people engaged in agriculture.
So we were far more likely to be living in multigenerational households...and less likely to be lonely and stressed.
So why might more social atomization cause an organically-based brain disorder like depression to increase?

I present the kindling theory:

.
Migraine, epilepsy, and depression are all recurrent diseases. They reappear under provocation. With each recurrence, the neural systems subserving them become more integrated and fixed. They become, if you will, more confident and sure of themselves. Ultimately they acquire a life of their own. They begin to appear even in the absence of provocation. They become stimulus-independent. This is the phenomenon of kindling. Neural systems, by dint of repetition, incite alternate behaviors which recur throughout life.

http://www.gwwoundcare.info/health-and-healthcare/news_the-kindling-theory.html

You increase stress, so those who are physiologically disposed to depression are more likely to have an initiatory episode...and then it's easier for them to have another, and another...and so on.

wynn
08-26-11, 02:09 AM
Something Marquis noted that struck me...our depression skyrocketed in the 50's. When the nuclear family occurred. Before then in the United States everybody was just generally a lot poorer and there was a lot more people engaged in agriculture.
So we were far more likely to be living in multigenerational households...and less likely to be lonely and stressed.
So why might more social atomization cause an organically-based brain disorder like depression to increase?

I present the kindling theory:

.

http://www.gwwoundcare.info/health-and-healthcare/news_the-kindling-theory.html

You increase stress, so those who are physiologically disposed to depression are more likely to have an initiatory episode...and then it's easier for them to have another, and another...and so on.

Is it helping you to think about your depression this way?

If yes, in what way does it help you?
Can you describe the thoughts, feelings and anything else that might be desirable for you when you think about depression in ways like above?

Captain Kremmen
08-26-11, 07:01 AM
Something Marquis noted that struck me...our depression skyrocketed in the 50's. When the nuclear family occurred. Before then in the United States everybody was just generally a lot poorer and there was a lot more people engaged in agriculture.
So we were far more likely to be living in multigenerational households...and less likely to be lonely and stressed.
So why might more social atomization cause an organically-based brain disorder like depression to increase?

I present the kindling theory:

.

http://www.gwwoundcare.info/health-and-healthcare/news_the-kindling-theory.html

You increase stress, so those who are physiologically disposed to depression are more likely to have an initiatory episode...and then it's easier for them to have another, and another...and so on.

Why don't you invite a family of gypsies to come and live with you?

Meanwhile, at Chimpkin's place...................

http://www.russiandvd.com/store/assets/product_images/imgs/front/36422.jpg

Hard faced Gypsy :
Cheempkeen, you are magnificent. Please, take my daughter as wife.
Gypsy Girl: Yes, Chimpykin, yes, yes yes.
Chimpkin's cats: Meow?

Added later
Chimpkin's wife:
The cats I can put up with, but entire Gypsy families..................

chimpkin
08-26-11, 07:12 AM
As long as she also marries my wife...

wynn
08-26-11, 09:41 AM
This thread is a good example of how the mentally ill contribute to the stigma of mental illness:

1. They invalidate others, ignore them flat out.
2. Insist in their own preconceived notions, refusing to even for the sake of the discussion entertain alternative views.
3. Bring up topics for discussion but then refuse to talk about them.
4. Default to presuming malicious intent or indifference in others.
5. Interpret others uncharitably.
6. Demand kindness from others, but refuse to give it themselves.


Given this, the stigma of mental illness is, in fact, justified.

Orleander
08-26-11, 06:19 PM
This thread is a good example of how the mentally ill contribute to the stigma of mental illness:

1. They invalidate others, ignore them flat out.
2. Insist in their own preconceived notions, refusing to even for the sake of the discussion entertain alternative views.
3. Bring up topics for discussion but then refuse to talk about them.
4. Default to presuming malicious intent or indifference in others.
5. Interpret others uncharitably.
6. Demand kindness from others, but refuse to give it themselves.


Given this, the stigma of mental illness is, in fact, justified.

well said :bravo: And it is what I've seen from some here

chimpkin
08-26-11, 06:43 PM
I have apologized for my earlier performance with The Marquis...look on his wall. I figured an act of contrition should be visible for a long time.

Crow tastes nasty.

Edited to add, besides that...I'm an evil librul too, which makes it extra-special.

Orleander
08-26-11, 06:48 PM
I think someone else should be eating crow

Orleander
08-29-11, 05:38 AM
I think this may be part of why there is a stigma

link (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2804737&postcount=1)

chimpkin
08-29-11, 07:45 AM
I think this may be part of why there is a stigma

link (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2804737&postcount=1)

You really think that's an example of mental illness?

If it is, and not saying it is(or is not), I would like to point out several things:
He did not act on his impulse to attack that person.
He is somewhat questioning his grip on reality, which a lot of thought-disordered people have trouble doing...to put it mildly.
He has mentioned he's on antidepressants, so he has a regular psychiatrist on tap to bring it up with, or even call.
So if it happens again, he can get an emergency appointment.

You yourself have admitted to having visceral reactions to people that made you fear for your children in that thread.
Should you go see a psychiatrist for this?

You and I can't really diagnose by internet...if I'm talking to someone I can say, "Wow, you seem to be really________, you need to see a psychiatrist." But even if I had that master's I want...I still wouldn't be able to diagnose over internet.

Periodically we get people like Kathaksung, who had put this board on his paranoid spam list...pretty obvious they ain't taking the blue pills...

So a restrained impulse to violence, followed by sanity-questioning frightens you. Can you elaborate on that frightened and possibly resentful feeling?

Orleander
08-29-11, 06:20 PM
.....Can you elaborate on that frightened and possibly resentful feeling?



... Out of curiosity, is your resent toward me purely because you think I should be talking to the police, or because you are just a bitter douche?)

Is it just a coincidence that both of you mention how resentful I am??:shrug:

chimpkin
08-30-11, 12:25 PM
Is it just a coincidence that both of you mention how resentful I am??:shrug:

Because you seem a bit frightened and resentful to me? Am I misreading?

Anyway, I stumbled over this:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110829164601.htm


mice fed with Lactobacillus rhamnosus JB-1 showed significantly fewer stress, anxiety and depression-related behaviours than those fed with just broth. Moreover, ingestion of the bacteria resulted in significantly lower levels of the stress-induced hormone, corticosterone.

I will now be taking my butt-bugs daily :D

Orleander
08-31-11, 05:39 AM
Because you seem a bit frightened and resentful to me? Am I misreading?...

yes you are

chimpkin
08-31-11, 12:35 PM
sorry then

wellwisher
08-31-11, 05:45 PM
There is an effect, called the placebo effect, where the power of suggestion can cause a statistically significant rate of healing even without real medicine. You tell someone the sugar pill is a new wonder drug and some will get better.

This observation strongly suggests there is also placebo sickness that is based on the power of suggestion. This is where we define a new syndrome or mental health condition that is real in som case, and the placebo effect will create additional sick people based on the power of suggestion.

When I lived in Florida, i was surprised at the number of women on pain killers and other prescription drugs. It was almost fashionable. This was based on a small observation sample. To get those prescription meds, you needed a sickness. Luckily, there were plenty of sickness and symptom variations to go around. Many of these ladies took advantage of a system that was providing the answer to the questions.

The 1950's was the rise of the drug age where powerful mood enhancers were being prescribed; mothers little helpers. I would have expected the pavlov placebo response to help get the food pellet. Depression was fashionable and the stock response needed for the food pellet.

If you consider viagra, all you need to get that is say the stock answer and then pretend a placebo sickness. There are real cases, but more viagra is sold for fun by saying the stock answer that is taught.

This medical effect is similar to lawyers, where the more laws you create the more violations of laws will occur by defualt, and therefore the more business for lawyers. it is simple math. Mental health industry needs to define more and more conditions to take advantage of the placebo effect to generate more patients. It is simple math.

If the hypocratic oat is to do no harm and defining more and more mental health conditions does harm via placebo sickness, what should be done?

Dywyddyr
08-31-11, 05:54 PM
As usual, another clueless ramble.

This observation strongly suggests there is also placebo sickness that is based on the power of suggestion.
Never heard of a psychosomatic illness?


If you consider viagra, all you need to get that is say the stock answer and then pretend a placebo sickness.
Pretend a placebo sickness? :wtf:

Orleander
08-31-11, 06:00 PM
is this site a woo woo magnet?

Dywyddyr
08-31-11, 06:09 PM
is this site a woo woo magnet?
Y'know, I'm beginning to suspect it is. ;)

chimpkin
08-31-11, 06:16 PM
is this site a woo woo magnet?

The entire internet is a woo-positive environs... preventing the takeover of woo is analogous to preventing cellular lysing in saltwater.

To keep the woo from overwhelming the forum, constant energy must be expended to keep the interior environs from reaching a critical saturation point of woo and bursting into new-ageyness. Since woo is constantly filtering in through the porous forum membrane, scientific knowledge must be transported in via energy use by forum members and processed into relatively coherent posts, thus keeping the forum in fact-focused balance.

So we are rather like mitochondria of the forum. If it helps you to think of me as a kidney-shaped, free-floating, bilayered blob in the forum protoplasm, feel free.

*bows*

And you're welcome.:D

universaldistress
08-31-11, 06:18 PM
Y'know, I'm beginning to suspect it is. ;)

Only beginning? Who's the slow one today? . .

Anti-Flag
09-01-11, 06:45 AM
The entire internet is a woo-positive environs...
Shouldn't it be woo negative, to attract the woo positive?

Maybe if we get enough of them to make it woo positive it will start to repel them.

Ah, magnetism jokes, I always knew there was a field for this.

chimpkin
09-01-11, 06:49 AM
Well, as in positive pressure. Like an in-woo-dation You don't have to expend any ATP to bring woo into the forum environment; on the contrary, you have to increase the pressure of facts to crowd the woo-woo out.

Orleander
09-01-11, 05:21 PM
is it a stigma to call people with mental health issues woo-woos?

Dywyddyr
09-01-11, 06:49 PM
is it a stigma to call people with mental health issues woo-woos?
:eek:
Grrr.

Orleander
09-01-11, 06:50 PM
so woo-woos don't have mental health issues. They are just stupid people?

Asguard
09-01-11, 06:55 PM
so woo-woos don't have mental health issues. They are just stupid people?

interesting question

look at the religious right, compleate "woo-woos" yet NOT MENTALLY ILL, the guidelines are very specific that belief in god is not a mental illness for all that they mirror eachother.

Infact i managed to ofend all the nursing students in my class (and amuse all the paramedics) by pointing out that the definition of "Delusion" is identical to the defition of "religious faith"

chimpkin
09-01-11, 07:05 PM
so woo-woos don't have mental health issues. They are just stupid people?

Think Venn diagram.

There are some people who are just Fluffy White Lighters, some people who have mental problems, and some Fluffy White Lighters with identifyable mental problems besides the obvious one of being taken in by hogwash.