Jaster Mereel suggested a thread on meme theory, so I'm taking the initiative to start it. Memes came up in (and destroyed) a thread on the purpose of religion. The theory, somewhat controversial and apparently rather trendy, is a good topic of discussion all by itself, so here we are. Wikipedia's article on memes seems to be a good starting reference. I admit to only skimming it, though I plan to read it more thoroughly when I have the patience. Now, let's pick up where the discussion leaves off in the aforementioned religion thread, with superluminal responding to Jaster's calling meme theory "rediculous." That's all fine and good. My question is this: what meaning does this characterization carry? How does a meme differ from the traditional concept of an idea? What is an example of a social behavior that could only be predicted by meme theory? My point of contention is that meme theory appears to be inconsequential, not even an actual theory but more of a rebranding of terminology[1]. I can't prove a negative, though, so I would like someone familiar with meme theory to provide a positive that can be tested and maybe falsified. 1. I generally dislike unsubstantial buzzwords such as 'blog' and 'podcast' that actually mean "$SYNONYM, only KEWLer," so demonstrating how the meme is useful would go a long way towards improving its standing in my eyes. This has been a personal plea.
I think the idea of memes is useful and distinct from the idea behind "idea." The primary difference is the 'contagious" nature of memes. For example, although often meme is used to refer to a rapidly spreading idea, it need not be an idea at all. "Idea" is not even mentioned in Superlum's discription /definition, which I think is a good one. He states a meme is "a simple replicator. Memes that are successful are spread by their agents (people)." For example, I would not consider a song which rapidly sweeps to the top of the hit lists as an idea, but it is a very succesful meme, at least for a few weeks. Some jokes that sweep thru the internet are memes, not ideas. I will also agree that some ideas, such as Darwin's are memes that have trasformed the world. Most memes die but Darwin's is here to stay. Another, current meme produces "body piercing" behavior. I sure hope that self mutilation meme dies soon.
Okay, but why are conventional theories surrounding how memes are propogated inadequate? How can it be demonstrated that agencies independent of the minds whose thoughts constitute a meme propagate it?
You and I are the only posters here thus far. I did not say: "conventional theories surrounding how memes are propogated {is} inadequate" nor anything about: "it can be demonstrated conventional theories surrounding how memes are propogated {is} inadequate" So are you asking your self two questions you intend to answer later? Frankly I do not know what you are talking about or to whom you are directing your questions? Perhaps someone who participated in the old thread, which I did not read. I just tried to answer your first questions but will pass on these.
I only read the first and last paragraph of your long quote of Dr corning, but in the last he is wrong enough for me not to waste more time on it. Scientific American is correct and he is wrong. Some memes have had huge power to reshape the world. I mentioned Darwin's. The meme concept of "germ" is another powerful, very successful, meme. Rather than expect people to read long quotes, clearly state your point, if you have one.
I do have a point, and it is that "memes" are an arbitrary re-naming of terms we already have, and that a "meme" is not an actual thing because thoughts and ideas are not physical things which exist apart from the mind of the individual having them and can be examined and measured, and that is what Meme Theory is trying to assert. Also, you didn't understand what Dr. Corning was saying in that last paragraph. He was saying that: In other words, he was saying that a meme is not an entity that makes decisions and acts, it is not the same as a living organism.
That's fine. I only intend to ask the questions so that anyone who wishes to participate may offer answers.
I was referring to the next sentence where Corning said: "...uncharacteristic "hype" of Scientific American..." when calling him wrong. Now that I understand your point, it seems very much a "straw man," set up to be knocked down. Who is says memes are "physical things" as I made bold in your text? Or that whole sentence?? Or that they are "living organisms"??? Memes do not exist independent of people spreading them. Genes do not exist independent of people sending them down to the next generation in a very pleasurable way. Genes may be physical things but certainly, neither genes nor memes are living organism. Only an idiot would suggest they are. You asked how memes differed from ideas and I told you how. I will not try to hold up your (or Corning's) straw man. One could argue that memes take on physical embodiment - for example a published song sheet, but I will not even do that.
How can you clump such differing things as religion and the latest fashion trends into the same, broad category, implying that they are composed of the same stuff? What you are telling me is that there is such a thing as a living concept, because the behavior of memes that has been put forth is exactly that. I think it's completely rediculous because it has no origin in any kind of observation of any kind of "unit" of thought that has been termed a "meme".
I am not doing any of this. I never even mention religion, fashion trends, etc. I will not try to prop up any of your straw men, nor even refute the words you are putting in my mouth as I did not say them. All I did was answer your two initial questions, but I am begining to regret trying to help you now that I realize you have some other agenda.
I'm not sure why you insist on there being a separate agent. The memes are composed of information which resides in the mind. In the case of religions, there are written texts, too.
From what I understand, meme theory proposes that a meme has an independent agent of propagation, which is why a meme is considered an organism or a virus of information.
Information by definition could reside and be transmitted across any number of media, such as neurons, sound waves in air, words, DNA, ect...
