Would you argue that?

Important for what?

Why would I? I dont meditate.

Well meditation is really helpful...I mean its great to slience the chaos in the mind.....but it really depends on what you meditate on...to me meditating on true knowledge is the most liberating thing of all...

Without meditation how can you know yourself?

What is life without knowing yourself?

People have got meditation all wrong (that is if we're talking about transcendental meditation as opposed to just relaxation techniques).
You dont get to know yourself via meditation, you get to un-know yourself, its all about the disconnection from the 'you' inside your head.
If you want to know yourself youre far more likely to learn valuable lessons and gain insights into yourself and others simply by performing your day to day seemingly 'mundane' tasks.
For example:
A descion at work as to whether you go against something that you have an ethical problem with or mearly tow the line and 'do your job' could tell you more about yourself than 10 years spent in meditation ever could.

This is all imo of course, but i came to the conclusion several years ago that enlightenment isnt about ego-death its about examining the ego through daily interaction, work and play.
This is how you learn and become enlightened.

Meditation is too much like hard work.

I prefer to do nothing.

Without meditation how can you know yourself?
What is life without knowing yourself?

They already tried that.

The reported result of meditating about the self is that there is no self to meditate about; the more you try to find it, the more elusive it gets to be.

Unless then you hope to catch the tail of the devil which nobody else yet managed to....

:p

Meditation has too many advantages to simply say that is the cause of only one thing.

Meditation can be used for relaxation, knowing the Self, observing the origin of your thoughts, etc.

Meditation has too many advantages to simply say that is the cause of only one thing.

Meditation can be used for relaxation, knowing the Self, observing the origin of your thoughts, etc.
there are however different gradations in aṣṭāńga-yoga, which are divisible into an eightfold procedure referred to as
yama (following rules that give guidance what shoul dnot be done), niyama (following rules that give guidance what should be done) , āsana (sitting postures), prāṇāyāma (breath control), pratyāhāra (driving out sense objects), dhāraṇā (concentration), dhyāna (meditation) and samādhi (trance).

in otherwords in the advanced rungs of meditation, it gets honed to a an object of meditation - if one thinks the pinnacle of meditation is relaxing/good health, then it appears that one is accepting the body and its senses as the object of meditation, which makes it difficult to understand how a practioner with such a view could move into the practices of pratyahara

in fact erring in the object of one's meditation explains why even big yogis like visvamitra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishvamitra)'s meditation was broken my menaka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menaka)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/23/Menaka_Vishwamitra_by_RRV.jpg/200px-Menaka_Vishwamitra_by_RRV.jpg

lightgigantic -

I am not exactly sure why you responded the way you did.
Meditation can be used for relaxation, which we agree on, but apparently you went on to explain how one cannot progress in their meditation if they do not meditate on something higher, which I did not mention at all. I did not say that meditation has to progress in any manner, but simply that it can be used to achieve different goals.

However, I disagree that you must meditate on something. The goal of meditation is to unlearn everything to the point of non-duality. Meditating on something automatically creates duality because there is that, which you are meditating on, and everything else. Ultimately, you want a mind unaffected by your thoughts.

lightgigantic -

I am not exactly sure why you responded the way you did.
Meditation can be used for relaxation, which we agree on, but apparently you went on to explain how one cannot progress in their meditation if they do not meditate on something higher, which I did not mention at all. I did not say that meditation has to progress in any manner, but simply that it can be used to achieve different goals.
my point was that relaxation (ie relief from the mind meditating on the sense objects of the body or kama) is only a side effect of meditation, and it is not the goal, at least in terms of the originators of the system

However, I disagree that you must meditate on something. The goal of meditation is to unlearn everything to the point of non-duality. Meditating on something automatically creates duality because there is that, which you are meditating on, and everything else. Ultimately, you want a mind unaffected by your thoughts.
therefore one must meditate on something that is beyond duality or the three modes of nature (one must meditate on something transcendental) - if one fails to do this, then like visvamitra (and who is as proficient in meditation, materially speaking, as visvamitra these days ?) one will be forced to meditate on something other than a transcendental object (ie something in the modes of nature) - anything done artificially will fail

BG 2.58: One who is able to withdraw his senses from sense objects, as the tortoise draws its limbs within the shell, is firmly fixed in perfect consciousness.

BG 2.59: The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness.

BG 2.60: The senses are so strong and impetuous, O Arjuna, that they forcibly carry away the mind even of a man of discrimination who is endeavoring to control them.

and

BG 3.4: Not by merely abstaining from work can one achieve freedom from reaction, nor by renunciation alone can one attain perfection.

BG 3.5: Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment.

BG 3.6: One who restrains the senses of action but whose mind dwells on sense objects certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender.

I agree with Ayodhya, to meditate on something is missing the point - to mediate on a 'thing' involves conceptualising, these are the exact cognitive mechanisms that you seek to shut down if you wish to experience some form of non-duality.

I agree with Ayodhya, to meditate on something is missing the point - to mediate on a 'thing' involves conceptualising, these are the exact cognitive mechanisms that you seek to shut down if you wish to experience some form of non-duality.

In response to Sanaka Kumar's q to Lord Brahma
(http://srimadbhagavatam.com/11/13/en)
SB 11.13.17: The sages headed by Sanaka said: O Lord, people's minds are naturally attracted to material sense objects, and similarly the sense objects in the form of desire enter within the mind. Therefore, how can a person who desires liberation, who desires to cross over activities of sense gratification, destroy this mutual relationship between the sense objects and the mind? Please explain this to us.

he gets the answer

SB 11.13.25: My dear sons, the mind has a natural proclivity to enter into the material sense objects, and similarly the sense objects enter into the mind; but both this material mind and the sense objects are merely designations that cover the spirit soul, who is part and parcel of Me.

SB 11.13.26: A person who has thus achieved Me by understanding that he is not different from Me realizes that the material mind is lodged within the sense objects because of constant sense gratification, and that the material objects are existing prominently within the material mind. Having understood My transcendental nature, he gives up both the material mind and its objects.

in other words one surmounts the dualities of the three gunas (sattva, rajas, tamas) by perceiving the nature of transcendence, rather than trying to default oneself into transcendence by conceptualizing about nothing. The result of such attempts of conceptualizing are indicated by the narrative of visvamitra

As i read it hes not talking meditation or the process of transcendence, hes talking about the post practicalities of applying a transcendal experience to everyday life in terms of desire/attainment.
Anyway thats besides the point, if you believe that conceptualising about nothing (.i.e conceptualising your 'idea' of nothingness) is a flawed way to go about meditating then we're in agreement. Conceptualising anything is simply going to fire up the neo-cortex and the high functioning cognitive processes which is exactly what you dont want.

So yeah, im not quite sure what youre taking issue with here to be honest, although i have a feeling youre unhappy with either God (as an external entity) or the soul being left out of the equation somewhere.

The reported result of meditating about the self is that there is no self to meditate about; the more you try to find it, the more elusive it gets to be.

If there is no SELF, what is this "you" that is trying to find it?

Meditation can be used for relaxation, knowing the Self, observing the origin of your thoughts, etc.Mediation is not relaxation. Sleep is relaxation.

In Japanese Zen temples, head monks walk around with big sticks for whacking meditators who fall into relaxation.

Mediation is not relaxation. Sleep is relaxation.

In Japanese Zen temples, head monks walk around with big sticks for whacking meditators who fall into relaxation.

In the West, people do not smack meditators with sticks.
As I have been trying to establish, meditation can be used for several different reasons, not just simply relaxation, not just simply Enlightenment, etc.

In the West, people do not smack meditators with sticks.
What passes for 'meditation' in the west is certaintly not up to the standards of its defintions in Asia.

Nowadays, people sit dozing in slumped postures and call it meditation. This nonsense would be tossed out the nearest window in any self-repecting Ashram or Buddhist temple.

While I might agree with you, this has nothing to do with the point that meditation can be used to accomplish several tasks. Do you not agree that meditation allows for a depressed heart rate, lower blood pressure, etc.? If meditation can easily lead to sleep, then what is the problem. People use meditation to achieve different tasks.

Or are you arguing that "Western" meditation achieves nothing?

Important for what?

While I might agree with you, this has nothing to do with the point that meditation can be used to accomplish several tasks. Do you not agree that meditation allows for a depressed heart rate, lower blood pressure, etc.? If meditation can easily lead to sleep, then what is the problem. People use meditation to achieve different tasks.

Or are you arguing that "Western" meditation achieves nothing?
The phrase 'western meditation' means nothing because there is a vast diversity of definitions in the west.

Some people believe that thinking real hard is meditation, some believe that only thinking about certain things is meditation, some believe that trying hard not to think at all is meditation.

Some define it as a practise, others define it as a condition...still others define it as a practise that leads to a condition.

Some believe that meditation is only possible sitting in the lotus posture, others believe its possible lying down, or walking, or working, or masturbating....and on and on.

Dude,
why are you trying so hard to make it more complicated than it is. Most people in the west who meditate agree on what it is. I don't think western mediatators think that sitting dozing in a slump passes, if anything they have to explain to people that it isn't that. And meditation does produce a relaxed state that has been scientifically proven, if you disagree with that then you can argue with the Dalai Lama and the numerous studies that support that conclusion. I do agree that in the East meditation's traditional goal isn't simply relaxation.

I meditate with the beer or with a good movie. Depends what you like - sex.

I meditate with the beer or with a good movie. Depends what you like - sex.

No, you don't.

Important for what?!?!?!?!?!

Important for what?!?!?!?!?!

Importance is subjective, as is the purpose of life. Which ultimately, more or less, this will run down to.

I'm not sure what mine is, but I do prioritize getting to know myself. Nothing is really more fascinating than realizing the fragility of a human. My ancestors evolved into the birth of me, at that moment I started to experience, and the "I" was formed. All these layers of conditioning started building an ego until recently the illusion has halted and started to peel off, slowly and surely.

If you look at us people like animals, it is much easier to see realistically. I hear all these reggae songs preach unity of mankind, but fail to see the truth. That we, like every other animal are greedy and selfish to a degree. And you can argue that we are getting better at be-headings and mass-slaughters but glance east for a second at Africa and beyond and these nightmares are concurrent with the present times.

I theorize with others that humans evolved intelligence largely to out-maneuver and trick others, so to stay ahead of the pack. Evidence from facial expressions that we have no control over, to pesky apes convinces me for the time being.

So much of our ego is because of our evolution. The jokes we tell, the things we cringe at, the things I aspire for. A lot of my traits are in completely uncontrollable. Look at identical twins, separated, observed 20 years later to have the same music taste and have the same job.

And there is environment, playing sound and showing me visuals. Creating vast tables of categories hundreds of layers deep. Every experience registered somewhere, cross-linked, and ready for retrieval.

The sum of experiences is what I am, along with genes crafted in a way to best survive, not best "harmonize with the universe" -(some reggae lyric).


---

So how can any of us be true to ourselves, be "real." There are all these layers and layers of variables set upon us, basically creating us.

Meditation is the only way to peel these layers back. You people without it are like robots, or insects. Your decisions, the core of what you think you are is largely under influence by your genetic and environmental make-up or ego.

How can you say you're free when you're really not.

That's what I'm trying to say

So your argument is that meditation is important to developing your ego(self)? I wouldn't say the most important, because I see solitude as much more essential(and Nietzsche would agree, I think?). As far as being free, I also think Nietzsche would say that solitude is key in that. True solitude, if you have just one friend, you can't know what it is to be solitary, everyone has some effect on you, and by considering the reactions of others, you limit your self, and therefore your freedom(er something like that).

Meditation develops the self literally.

Brain wave habits change:

http://www.news.wisc.edu/10420.html

So your argument is that meditation is important to developing your ego(self)? I wouldn't say the most important, because I see solitude as much more essential(and Nietzsche would agree, I think?). As far as being free, I also think Nietzsche would say that solitude is key in that. True solitude, if you have just one friend, you can't know what it is to be solitary, everyone has some effect on you, and by considering the reactions of others, you limit your self, and therefore your freedom(er something like that).

developing, or tearing apart - anyway you look at it, as long as it is progressive towards knowing yourself,

I don't know much Nietzsche, but that sounds about right. By eliminating people, you eliminate all their influences which inherently effect your decisions.

I do however feel meditation can provide solution by digging deep enough into the mind. Awareness is really key... like this hierarchy on cognitive processing of sound:

Waves hit ear-drum
Vibrations get processed into words
Words get recognized as English
Words go through some insane morphological logic and subsequent phrases get formed etc.
Your internal-monologue iterates "5 dollars for some food, dawg?"
You do some reasoning involving amount of money you got now, which gets transfered and weighed on your belief structure, and some other events spark up. Seriously, just from hearing that phrase so much shit starts talking inside your head.

People who have taken a few minutes and meditated on their breath should know what I'm talking about - it's seriously messy in our neck-tops. Constant flooding of thoughts and ideas and re-iterations.

Without meditation and increasing your awareness of this mentalese, you will be making a decision that is almost your internal-monologue's and not your own. Meditation will bring you further down that hierarchy where your consciousness will exist on level of purer observation. At that state you won't even conceptualize words anymore, which would be doing the same thing as not introducing yourself to them in the first place by being in solitude.

I don't think western mediatators think that sitting dozing in a slump passes, if anything they have to explain to people that it isn't that.
People sit dozing in a slumped posture in the east too sometimes...which is why the Kyosaku was invented.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8571/obon0303ti0.jpg

A much better solution is to stretch the muscles around the hip joints in a more effective manner, so you'll be able to sit up straight effortlessly. Most Buddhist meditators cant sit directly on the floor (like this)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/718/adida3al1.jpg

because they havent stretched enough. This is why they need to sit on a cushion, to provide some elevation.

Meditation is not the most important skill. Getting sustenance is. Dogs and cats seem to do all right without meditation. My fish don't meditate, and I'm pretty sure Mikey the redneck down the street from me doesn't spend much time with the Dalai Lama, and yet they all seem perfectly happy with themselves and their sustenance.

Dogs and cats seem to do all right without meditation.People often think that animals are somehow perfect simply because their minds are not divided.

Strangely however, the behaviour you accept from your dog would be intolerable from a human.

I'm not sure what you mean. My dog shits in the yard because I have neither the time nor inclination to teach him to use the toilet. Various other things are a matter of intelligence or deeply ingrained instincts and have nothing to do with whether or not he meditates.

I don't think my dog is perfect. He's just another life form. He seems quite happy without even knowing about the concept of meditation.

That's great! Now all you have to do is figure out how to have the mindset of a dog...you should start by eating your own shit (just one of many activities that seems to make dogs "quite happy").

What's "happy" for a dog isn't necessarily "happy" for a human (or at least most humans). You don't need Tibetan monks to tell you that.

What's "happy" for a dog isn't necessarily "happy" for a human (or at least most humans).

My point exactly.

What's "happy" for a dog isn't necessarily "happy" for a human (or at least most humans). You don't need Tibetan monks to tell you that.

You proved grover's point - the two aren't analogous by any means so you can't argue as if they were.

The point is that meditation isn't important. Plenty of life does just fine without it. If it was so important, we couldn't survive without it. Try to survive without sustenance, however.

Thanks for chiming in and pointing out something so simplistic and obvious its not even worth stating.

And yet you found it intriguing enough to carry on a conversation about it. Interesting... :rolleyes:

And yet you found it intriguing enough to carry on a conversation about it. Interesting... :rolleyes:

sounds like he found it less intriguing, and more annoying.

Whether he responded or not doesn't have much to do with it

And sure your point makes sense if I said "the most important skill to living." But I left it quite ambiguous

Your title: "Meditation is the most important skill "

No qualifiers given. You need to place your conditions on such statements in order to make yourself clearer. It may be important for you to meditate on that to better convey your thoughts.

Your title: "Meditation is the most important skill "

No qualifiers given. You need to place your conditions on such statements in order to make yourself clearer.


I just said that on the third line of my last post. Not sure if you missed that or you're implying there is some golden rule that arguments must meet strict guidelines. The fact is, ambiguity has advantages in certain situations.

Anyway don't get upset. You post about subsentence isn't necessarily wrong, it just doesn't contribute much to the conversation. It was just obvious and almost irrelevant.

What would you say the most important intellectual skill is? It would probably go hand in hand with your life's purpose wouldn't it?.

Ah, now you've specified a set of skills. I was responding to the question you had asked in the first place.

Intellectual skill? Well, how different would you say meditation is from objective analysis?

Meditation is not the most important skill. Getting sustenance is. Dogs and cats seem to do all right without meditation. My fish don't meditate, and I'm pretty sure Mikey the redneck down the street from me doesn't spend much time with the Dalai Lama, and yet they all seem perfectly happy with themselves and their sustenance.

But, your dogs, cats, fish, and redneck friend would all get pretty upset if they couldn't move right? So, is it just slightly more complicated than saying that all you need is food and water to be "perfectly happy." And I bet your redneck friend would get very upset if you tried to take away his porn, beer, and truck, right? And if Mikey is anything like the rednecks I know he spends alot of time bitching about his job, judging people with a different skin color, irritated at little things, if you look at Mike closely you'll see that his whole life is spent in an attempt to relieve himself of one god damned agitation after another, the whole situtation is unsatisfactory if you look at it (which animals cant do).

And meditation can somehow provide all this how?

I think passing your genes on is the most important skill.

I think passing your genes on is the most important skill.

It's not exactly a skill is it?
Aren't all animals programmed to innately know how to pass on their genes?

It's not exactly a skill is it?
Aren't all animals programmed to innately know how to pass on their genes?

I dunno, ask your girlfriend ;)

I dunno, ask your girlfriend ;)

I don't have one.

Plus, good sex is not necessary for reproduction. All a woman would need to do is lay on her back, think of something else, and let the man do what he needs to.

Ah, now you've specified a set of skills. I was responding to the question you had asked in the first place.

Intellectual skill? Well, how different would you say meditation is from objective analysis?

objective analysis meaning unbiased analysis? If so here is what I've been meaning when I say meditation:

Meditation is using specific techniques to objectively analyze the ego.

All right. I'd say it can be an important skill, depending on what one's goal is. I think people would be generally better off, but many are content to drift along, merely reacting to the world as an organism might participate in simple stimulus-response actions. They have no ambition or desire to improve their lots in life, therefore it isn't important to them. If they are not happy with where they're at, they tend to accept that unhappiness as the natural way of things or to deny that they are unhappy. To look any deeper would be too much.

All right. I'd say it can be an important skill, depending on what one's goal is. I think people would be generally better off, but many are content to drift along, merely reacting to the world as an organism might participate in simple stimulus-response actions. They have no ambition or desire to improve their lots in life, therefore it isn't important to them. If they are not happy with where they're at, they tend to accept that unhappiness as the natural way of things or to deny that they are unhappy. To look any deeper would be too much.

subjectively, the importance is pretty low yeah

Imagine if everyone in the world dedicated an hour a day to meditate. I just see the world as extremely better off

The root of the world's problems, are all dependent on the ego and its ill-intentions.

something related to the topic that is worth reading....



How The Brain Rewires Itself (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1580438,00.html)

Not only can the brain learn new tricks, but it can also change its structure and function--even in old age

I'm at odds to figuring out what exactly we are talking about.

I'm at odds to figuring out what exactly we are talking about.

I think the topic has been hijacked a little bit! ....LOL!

But the topic is "Meditation is the most important skill". My very first thought when I read that a few days ago was ......okay, but what do phedophiles meditate about? How 'bout murderers and vicious rapists? Child molestors? What do they meditate about? And is it, as the topic would indicate, the most important skill in those and other such "careers"?

Meditation, as I know it, is just contemplating some topic/subject with oneself. However, it's usually taken to mean "good things" ....but it ain't necessarily true. One can meditate, contemplate, how to murder someone and get away with it.

Baron Max

I'm going to change your name to "Mister Sunshine"! lol That's a good point, though.

I think the topic has been hijacked a little bit! ....LOL!

But the topic is "Meditation is the most important skill". My very first thought when I read that a few days ago was ......okay, but what do phedophiles meditate about? How 'bout murderers and vicious rapists? Child molestors? What do they meditate about? And is it, as the topic would indicate, the most important skill in those and other such "careers"?

Meditation, as I know it, is just contemplating some topic/subject with oneself. However, it's usually taken to mean "good things" ....but it ain't necessarily true. One can meditate, contemplate, how to murder someone and get away with it.

Baron Max

Yeah I've learned better than to make topics this broad.

What if I say

In an objective reality, the most important intellectual skill is to use specific techniques which have shown to be most effective in objectively analyzing the ego?

Maybe you will spur me to revise that sentence even more until it grants a new, more directed thread.

Keep searching....you are on the right track...:D

Yeah I've learned better than to make topics this broad.

What if I say

In an objective reality, the most important intellectual skill is to use specific techniques which have shown to be most effective in objectively analyzing the ego?

Maybe you will spur me to revise that sentence even more until it grants a new, more directed thread.

Well, what you (and others) should do is learn to title the topic in a broad sense, then in the body of the post, effectively limit what you wish to discuss. The title of book seldom is longer than two or three words, yet many people feel that they have to include the entire fuckin' text in that title! Drives me fuckin' nuts.

The title of your post should have been simply; "Meditation". Then in the body of the post should have been, "In an objective reality, the most important intellectual skill is to use specific techniques which have shown to be most effective in objectively analyzing the ego?" See?

I'm still rather curious how you feel about the psychopath meditating about how to capture, torture, abuse and kill someone? Isn't that meditation, too? And if so, are you advocating it for the psychopaths of the world?

Baron Max

I disagree on the title part, it should be more specific.

About your psychopath,

Someone could meditate by my definition on murdering someone. But it wouldn't be planning how to torture and kill someone. It would be more of an introduction of variables to see how your own mind reacts.

Instead of murder, say someones gay and is having problems dealing with it. With a biased mind from her mom criticizing gays, she might concentrate on the body of another girl (introduction of variable) and immediately get discouraged with thoughts of her mom calling her a sinner.

But through concentrating on breath and other techniques she is able to consciously see her bias towards gays. For her she thinks about some boobs, and in her mind sees her mom putting them down. Then she is able to see why she was subconsciously biased, and look clearly at her lust for the putang.

From my experience when I'm in a state of meditation, and I introduce a variable, immediately thoughts regarding it will pop up. Using them, I can see associations that I was previously unaware of.

So with the mentality that meditation is used as an aid to unraveling the mysteries of our subconscious ego, meditating about murder is a good thing.

But planning a murder by "meditating" isn't what I mean.

I don't have one.

Plus, good sex is not necessary for reproduction. All a woman would need to do is lay on her back, think of something else, and let the man do what he needs to.

Well, convincing her to do lie on her back and spread her legs would be a good skill. Her enjoying it would be good, as that means if you don't fertilize the first time, you get another chance or six!

I'm still rather curious how you feel about the psychopath meditating about how to capture, torture, abuse and kill someone?

Damn you talk kinky.
I LIKE IT!!!!!!!!!