I have come up with an idea for an in-hub motorcycle hydraulic CVT (can be adapted for cars too).
I am not an Engineer.
I am not yet an Engineering student.
I suck at CAD.

What I need is to talk to someone that knows all that I don't (especially about hydraulic dynamics).
I want them to render the design in CAD, run the numbers, calculate the efficiency and see if there is some glaring problem with the design that I can't see.
It's a really simple design, so it's hard to believe that someone hasn't come up with it already if it does actually work.

If and when a final design is reached, I would need a drawing that I could bring to an engineering firm or machine shop and have a prototype built for testing.

I am not looking for a partner, just a consultant.
How much would services like this cost me?
How would I go about finding someone to perform the Engineer work?
Would a simple non-disclosure form protect me legally?

Any input you could give would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.

I am not looking for a partner, just a consultant.
How much would services like this cost me?
How would I go about finding someone to perform the Engineer work?
Would a simple non-disclosure form protect me legally?I assume you live in the US.

I'm not a lawyer, let alone a patent attorney, but having dealt with some patentable things in the past, I have one major suggestion.

Write everything down on paper (or wordprocessor) about your idea that you can. Include drawings and diagrams no matter how crude. In your written description, include phrases like "...or by similar means...", "...but not limited to..." For example, if you say "...made of stamped steel...", someone who finds out about your invention might say "...molded polymer or material with similar characteristics..." In other words, describe your invention in as broad of terms possible.

After you've got your description and drawings done, xerox a duplicate set. Put the originals in an envelope and mail it to yourself registered with return receipt. When you get that envelope in the mail, don't open it. Leave it sealed and put it in a safe place. That way, you have proof of the origin of the invention and a timestamp accepted by the courts if you ever have to sue someone over patent infringement.

Then save up a couple thousand dollars and hire a patent attorney to do a patent search, help you with non-disclosure forms (they're not simple) and put you in touch with engineering and marketing folks.

Good luck and I hope you can make a fortune off of it.

you need a legal doc for sure my dad owed a machine shop for many many years and is a mech eng, doing design work like your talking can be paid for in two ways depending on who does it, one way by the hour work find a eng student and tak to them that would be the cheapest route, second goto a actual firm and contract with them for a set price you might be looking at around $1000 or so.

word of caution though if you do goto a firm and say you fail to pay them guess what they can turn around and do, and you will for sure need to pay a attorney

Yes, I live in the US.

I'm not too worried about being able to afford the process, I just want to know how much it may cost me.

What order do I do this in?

I mean, how do I get a patent without good working diagrams to begin with?
How do I get good working diagrams without hiring an Engineering Firm or student to do them for me?
How do I hire an Engineering Firm or student to draw me the diagrams to bring to a patent lawyer without first protecting myself by patenting it?

I don't want to deal with one of those inventor service companies in the back of Popular Mechanics, I just don;t trust them. Besides, I think they are mostly for items like Ron Popiel sells on late0night infomercials. This doesn't fit into that category.

Also, how do I know a good patent/intellectual property attorney from a scheister wanting to puff me up and take my money?

Stop, stop. If youre going to go anywhere you need to know what youre doing. Ignore your plans, ignore all the well meaning advice here, get yourself informed first. Place to start is the newsgroup alt.inventors. Doing anything else at this stage is a complete waste of time and money.

I've been in this biz.

Lava

Do you have any design left?

If no just get a CADD guy to sign an NDA and draw them up. If your design is not complete then things get complicated. It's going to be more difficult and expensive to find someone to help develop it, and then not take any credit.

I would also be asking you what you want to achieve with all this. You've picked a field
a) thats hopelessly tough
b) that you know nothing about.
c) thats closed to outside individuals anyway.
d) that costs 7 figures minimum to develop anythign comercialisable.

So spending money is not the thing to do at this stage. If youre serious about developing engine technology youre going to need to spend a few years learning it first.

I know, not what your ego wants to hear, just think its better to get real with you now than let the sharks take everything off you. Thats what happens to inventors that follow the path described in this thread, your just someone else's lunch.


Lava

[QUOTE=one_raven]Yes, I live in the US.

>I'm not too worried about being able to afford the process, I just want
>to know how much it may cost me.

$1,000,000 +

> What order do I do this in?

answered already

>I mean, how do I get a patent without good working diagrams to begin with?

you dont

> How do I get good working diagrams without hiring an Engineering Firm or student to do them for me?

a) you dont
b) you learn technical drawing
c) this isnt your problem though.

> How do I hire an Engineering Firm or student to draw me the diagrams
>to bring to a patent lawyer without first protecting myself by patenting it?

Non Disclosure Agreement


> I don't want to deal with one of those inventor service companies in
>the back of Popular Mechanics, I just don;t trust them. Besides, I think
>they are mostly for items like Ron Popiel sells on late0night infomercials.
>This doesn't fit into that category.

They exist to sell people ridiculously overpriced junk quality services. They tell people their nohopers are brilliant so they can sell said services. They even feature on government scam websites.


>Also, how do I know a good patent/intellectual property attorney from a scheister wanting to puff me up and take my money?

That ones easy, the good one you cant afford.


FWIW I did some amateur engine designs, only on paper, that went into much more detail than you have here. It looked like I got some serious power/weight/cost gains. I would never seriously consider them as having commerical potential though, I know enough to know there are a whole slew of issues and unknowns that individuals simply do not have the resources to investigate and perfect. When I say engine design is a tough field, I kid not. The whole world wide array of car companies have poured untold billions into it for over a century now.


Lava

Okay, one_raven, you're going to get a lot of "advice" from folks on boards like this, myself included. Some know what they're talking about and some don't. You just have to sort things out for yourself.

Inventions and intellectual properties belong to the person who originated them so the prime directive is to protect your interest. The best way to do that is to do what I said in my first post in the thread. If you need help, which you've said, get it only after you've firmly established that you are the originator of the idea.

If you live in or near a large city, you can find patent attorneys in the telephone yellow pages. You can also get referrences from a local or state Bar Association. If it were me, I'd list those in the yellow pages and call the Bar Association and simply ask how long each has been in business, and if any complaints have been registered against them. In the end, you'll have to choose. But start with a patent attorney.

I also post on the Full Size Bronco (http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/index.php) board, and there's a guy there going through the same thing you are. There's also a lawyer on that board (not a patent attorney) who's good at giving advice. If you're interested, PM me and I'll put you in touch with them.

You can also check with the US Patent Office (http://www.uspto.gov/) and see what they have to offer.

Most dont learn, they dont want to hear anything that interferes with their hollywood style ideas of sitting on their ass and becoming rich. Most so called inventors are just taken for suckers.

I'll bet you the OP has no invention, no intellectual property, and no financial interest to protect. Thinking you have doesnt mean you have, you need to find out. Raven, have you done a patent search to see if your idea is novel? I bet it isnt. Do you have a business plan that shows you can make money from this? I bet you either have none, or nothing realistic. Note that hoping to license your vague idea is a non starter: hollywood does not give a realistic portrayal of the invention business, it gives children dreams of easy money and instant widespread respect, the kind of things kids want, the way they want them.

Hopefully you'll think about this stuff and learn the business. If you cant follow the points I'm making, and dont go learn the subject at alt,inventors, the invention promotion companies and patent lawyers will be happy to accept youe money.


Lava

Wow, lava, good thing you weren't around giving advice to Henry Ford or Alexander Graham Bell or Bill Gates!

Lava some of your advise is pretty good and I am sure you raised some new questions for him, but my family has built and designed and holds the patents on 27 machines, with that said we did all our own blueprints designing and building and just hired a lawyer in St Louis Missouri for the patent paper work.

one_raven - start by this making a list on a piece of paper of what you wanna do and then try your best to make a ruff freehand drawing, after that try a new drawing of the same idea but try and clean it up the best you can with straighter lines smoother curves and you dimensions on it.

you will need dimensions, get a tape measure and find the motorcycle you want to modify and measure the part or the part area including getting the location of all the bolt holes write them all down and try and make a ruff drawing of that take numerous pictures of that area as well the designer will thank you for that one especially if he has a question where a certain area is located you can use the photos to point it out.

next research how your going to market the idea, are you doing this for personal reasons or to make money, if your out to make money find out who sells custom parts and such items and make a list of them, find out if you have any competition and make a list of them, if you do have competition research there products and get all the information you can on there products including pricing. all research there patents.

if at that point you decide to continue with all this start looking around at your local colleges and goto the eng department and post a ad on the bullitin board say you will pay them like $10 per hour for there service with designing a idea you would be surprized the calls or emails you would get. say it took you a 100 hours at $10 and hour thats a $1000 bucks so you get the idea there.

once you have located a student of firm you want to help you with your work get a non-disclosure agreement signed, you can find one to download off the web and put on it what you need.

now you got your design on paper, and now on your computer and hopefully on about a dozen or so CD's now get ahold of a patent lawyer in your area, see a few if you don't feel right about what they say. from there its up to you to finance your manufacturing of the products and to market the products. you would probably have to hire a marketing firm just to get a new product out from a new company thats not established

also if you want to manufacter this product you won't be able to have any machine shop do this for you, and a small shop would not be able to do this, a product like this for commercial use would require at least

1 foundery, mold/cast worker
2 manual lathe operators
2 CNC lathe operators
1 manual mill operator
2 CNC mill operators
1 drill press operator
1 inspector for quality assurance
1 shop foreman to make sure everything goes smoothly

and thats just to get the product made, thats not including office works parts ordering people, drivers, and such theres alot to manufactoring parts or machines.

another thing you will have to reseacrh is insurance, and product liability what if it breaks and someone dies you will be sued.

CVTech I think youre telling raven to run into something, without finding out what they're running into first. The stuff you suggest is only worth doing if this has a commercial future. Almost all ideas dont, so the OP will need to find out if it has with the minimum of cost first. There's no point doing technical drawing at this stage.

The odds are close to 100% that this is not an invention for one of 2 reasons:
1. its been done before
2. It doesnt work in real life
In nearly all cases a new idea fails at one of the above hurdles - and many others. Close to zero ideas make it over all the hurdles.

Secondly, this one I'm afraid is a non starter (from a commercial point of view) because of the field its in. Auto engines, as I've mentioned briefly, are not something you can develop at home to the point of commercial usefulness. They are very very much more complex than you see if you take one apart: for example there is a huge amount of science and financial investment gone into minimising emissions, almost none of which youll notice by just looking at the parts together. I've read a book on it, and its fiendish.

What can the OP do? Well, if you can come up with something like a new engine format, you can most likely come up with other ideas as well. Work out what field to invent in, learn the subject well from alt.inventors, keep going and going and going, produce idea after idea. What the OP has done can lead to commercial success downline - but only as a result of inventing something else, and doing so with an understanding of the many issues inventions face.

Take this idea as an encouragement, develop from it, and come up with something that will fly all the way. Dont get stuck on this one, because it will drain your bank account.


Lava

Hey! Guys!

one_raven was looking for advice in an area in which he has none. I don't think he needs discouragement at this point. If an idea is not worth pursuing, he'll find out for himself. Actually, as a long time auto enthusiast, the idea sounds intriguing, and if workable, would have a market at least in motorcycles if not autos.

The worst ideas are those never followed up on.

Wow, lava, good thing you weren't around giving advice to Henry Ford or Alexander Graham Bell or Bill Gates!

What I say is fully compatible with what those people did. I would not have put them off one iota.

They did not rush into spending money on a project that couldnt succeed, they evaluated what they had carefully first.

They did not come up with a vague idea that they didnt know how to implement, and expect someone to pay them for it, instead they developed their idea step by step until they had something saleable.

They did not expect someone else to pay them for an idea, they developed and sold a finished product.

Etc etc, those people knew well what they were doing. The OP can too if s/he learns. Alt.inventors. If OP has an idae that could work, s/he has quite enough brain cells to come up with something else too.


Lava

Lava

you need to reread my post I tried to give him the information he was looking for since I have been through it many times. I told him to start small with a sketch he makes himself and for him to clean it up and to photograph the area the parts going to go, the way I take it its a hub not a engine big difference there look at all the fancy suspension parts out there for custom rods lowriders and such its a pretty big market.

also I lined it out for him to start with minimal money used once he figures out if its going to work or not he won't have a whole lot of money tied up in the project.

also I did tell him to research!!!

and if you didn't see I even detailed what type of man power to he will have to consider if he wants to go small with a commercial part. to give him a idea of the actual cost by looking at what I out layed 9 out of 10 people would let there idea die unless they was true to the idea project or what ever and knew it would go over.

yes it costs alot of money but thats why you do it in steps small steps

Yes I am aware what you wrote, I wanst asleep, and I explained why it was not germane at this stage.

Lava

Thank you all for your advice.

Lava,
I'm afraid this might come off as defensive, but I assure you it isn't meant to be so.
I honestly do appreciate your grounded warnings (they do not injure my ego).
I would like to clear up a few things, however.

It's not an engine. I'm not so naive to think that I could design an engine out of the box without the years of diciplined training and millions of dollars of R&D capital behind me.
It is a fairly straight-forward design of an in-hub Continuously Variable Transmission designed for motorcycles.

Although I am not an engineer, you seem to assume that I have no knowledge of the subject and just woke up from a dream one day and shouted "Eureka!"
It's really nothing like that.
Mechanical Engineering has always been an interest of mine and I do plan on going to school for it.
I have done several years of research on this specific subject.
I have done quite a few patent searches for existing designs, and have found none (though I very well may have missed some).
During those patent searches, I read a few dozen patents for somewhat similar designs searching for problems with my evolving design.

I have more than just a simple concept.
Though, like I said, I need some help with the details (mainly with the hydraulic component tolerances) I have spent quite a bit of time with the preliminary gear ratios and expected performance.
I have a pretty workable design in my head, the main problem I have is putting it on paper to bring working drawings to a machine shop and have a prototype built for preliminary testing.

The reason I decided to start with the design for a motorcycle first has several components.
1.) As you pointed out, the automotive design field is a multi-billion dollar a year field with countless PhD's working in it.
2.) The motorcycle aftermarket field is not only wide open, but is in the early stages of an explosion.
3.) At this point the majority of custom motorcycle parts are built, not by Fords and Chevys, but are built by hand in machine shops by builders and designers. It is actually fairly easy to break into the field if you have a design that looks good and you can prove works well.
4.) There are already several working CVT's in the automotive industry, and, although some major manufacturers are already putting them in cars, they are still not nearly efficient enough (despite 70 years of effort) yet. The biggest stumbling block has been (and still is) power handling capacity. Building a CVT for a 120 HP bike is much simpler than building one for a car. In fact, there are already some working designs for machinery that surpass the average bike HP, but no one has built one small and efficient enough, nor specifically designed for a bike yet.
5.) The cost of R&D on a relatively simple (as far as the manufacturing process is concerned) design of a motorcycle transmission is pretty negligable. The unit itself could conceivably be built for a $2000 per unit cost with 100% off-the-shelf parts except for the case, which would be a straigt-forward 2-3 piece aluminum billet design that can be built on a CNC lathe in a day or two. The only possible exception would be the fluid coupling, and although that may have to be custom built, there are several companies that specialize in building custom built fluid couplings already.
6.) With the recent explosion of state-of-the-art custom chopper shops all over the country, if I could come with a proven design that works and is efficient, I am sure I could get someone to back a limited production run of a few hundred transmissions and take it from there. Even if I couldn't, all I would need is a few (I could finance that myself) and have them built to order just like many custom bike parts are currently manufactured.

I'm not looking for a get rich quick scheme.
In fact, I am fully aware I could lose a small fortune in trying this.
It's not about wanting to live Tucker's dream (I never even saw Tucker ;)).
I was just wondering one day why no one has built a CVT for bikes, given that they could be tuned to run at any given RPM (100% of the time at peak torque for racing, or lower for fuel efficiency) Plus it frees up precious design space that current transmissions take-up, so I set out to figure out how to do it.
Even if this ends up costing me $100K, and I make no money at all, I will be satisfied if I do it and it works.
That's all that matters to me.
I could have the only bike in the world with this design, and I would be fine with that (though, of course, I would LIKE to make millions on it :D, I am not expecting to).

So, as you can see, I have done some homework, and I do think this will work.
Though, not being a mechanical engineer yet, I know there could be something I am overlooking (something that could break the whole project), so what I am looking for is a fresh and trained set of eyes to look at it and tell me if they can see what I can not.

Plus, perhaps most importantly, I need it all on paper.

I may fall flat on my face from time to time, but I have always been the type to look at what is possible, not what is probable. The scars are well worth the efforts.

Again, thank you all for all your great advice.

It sounds like you've got your shit together and your feet on the ground, one_raven. I hope you make a fortune on it.

It sounds like you've got your shit together and your feet on the ground, one_raven. I hope you make a fortune on it.

Thanks.
From your lips to Billy Lane's ears! ;)

QUOTE one_raven

>It's not an engine. I'm not so naive to think that I could design an
>engine out of the box without the years of diciplined training and
>millions of dollars of R&D capital behind me.
>It is a fairly straight-forward design of an in-hub Continuously Variable
>Transmission designed for motorcycles.

Ah, makes all the difference.


>Although I am not an engineer, you seem to assume that I have no
>knowledge of the subject and just woke up from a dream one day and
>shouted "Eureka!"

Not assume, no. If you know your stuff, all is well. There is one concern at this point though:

>Even if this ends up costing me $100K, and I make no money at all, I
>will be satisfied if I do it and it works.
>That's all that matters to me.

Good luck,


Lava

I have come up with an idea for an in-hub motorcycle hydraulic CVT (can be adapted for cars too).
I am not an Engineer.
I am not yet an Engineering student.
I suck at CAD.

What I need is to talk to someone that knows all that I don't (especially about hydraulic dynamics).
I want them to render the design in CAD, run the numbers, calculate the efficiency and see if there is some glaring problem with the design that I can't see.
It's a really simple design, so it's hard to believe that someone hasn't come up with it already if it does actually work.

If and when a final design is reached, I would need a drawing that I could bring to an engineering firm or machine shop and have a prototype built for testing.

I am not looking for a partner, just a consultant.
How much would services like this cost me?
How would I go about finding someone to perform the Engineer work?
Would a simple non-disclosure form protect me legally?

Any input you could give would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
try here www.eng-tips.com/

try here www.eng-tips.com/
I used to visit that site on an almost daily basis.
It is the only forum I have ever gotten banned from, and I never found out why.
I sent several emails to the site admin, but never got any response.

I would like to take you seriously Raven, but to do so would be an affront to your intelligence.

Raven,
I'm a ME and I'd be willing to look at your idea to see if there's anything you've overlooked. I'm into motorcycles too. My area of expertise is heat transfer but I have more formal fluids education than most ME's because my masters program was focused on fluids and heat transfer.
One small problem I can see from the start is that on any vehicle you want to minimize unsprung weight. A gearbox in the hub would probably be much heavier than a normal hub and adversely affect handling. On a commuter type vehicle of course that wouldn't matter.
I am a person of high integrity and would never consider stealing someone else's idea. I'll sign any NDE you ask me to. Just the email correspondence would be proof enough of who owns the idea.
Send me an email at dr249 @ hotmail.com if you want to talk about it.
Alex