You are a being with limitless powers - here is your task.

Take every human being alive and put them on a new planet which is made entirely of mud . Give each family a tent big enough for that families size and mark out a piece of land for each family by their respective tents. You supply them with air and a water supply but distribute each of these 'consumables' fairly. Every one has access to breathable air and you provide a river which flows by each and every piece of land.
You supply each family with enough seeds to grow their own food indefinately.

You set two rules.

1) The humans must never turn on you their master.
2) The humans must treat eachother with the same respect that they treat you with.

Where are the power struggles? How could this system fail? What are the pitfalls? How would you deal with the problems that arose?

Discuss!

Thanks :)
c20

Mods : Please move to Ethics, Morality, & Justice - sorry for being a dolt :o

Is crack cocaine on this planet? What about weed? Ok I'd use the infinite supply of marijuana seeds and such to keep em all docile, fed, and happily stoned.

It would be their decision whether they grew any of the seeds you had given them.

Well, If I were on a quarter-square mile of mud, had a little tent, and grew some corn or something... i'd have to get used to having a permanent muddy skin treatment, we'd be filthy. Actually, if my family was just my beautiful wife and it was a warm day in the tent, and there was soft, smooth mud all over... but that doesn't matter, other than the constant sexcapades i'd be winning, I'd get bored OUT OF MY SKULL. I'd at LEAST need enough industrialization to give me an x-box and TV, or at least a bunch of books or a deck of cards or something. Okay, this still sounds really sad... that's it, I'm mad, i'm gonna run around pelting things with mud-balls, since there's no movie theater, no mall, no beach, no entertainment WHAT SO EVER. Then a band of me and other rebel residents of the muddied-up tents will invent fire, and start having fun with that, untill either we start clan wars against each other or the all-mighty being that put us on planet Mud smotes us in our violation of constant, boring, wasteful peace.

With that I say that world peace is impossible, and even if we could achieve it, we'd all be bored stupid and life would be pointless. Now, with our current development, we don't need planet Mudball, we just need to find the problems case-by-case and apply boot to sadistic human-right-violator ass. God bless america! lol!

p.s. please disregard that last line so we don't end up on ANOTHER america-is-the-source-of-pure-eternal-evil tangent...

Well, If I were on a quarter-square mile of mud, had a little tent, and grew some corn or something... i'd have to get used to having a permanent muddy skin treatment, we'd be filthy. Actually, if my family was just my beautiful wife and it was a warm day in the tent, and there was soft, smooth mud all over... but that doesn't matter, other than the constant sexcapades i'd be winning, I'd get bored OUT OF MY SKULL. I'd at LEAST need enough industrialization to give me an x-box and TV, or at least a bunch of books or a deck of cards or something. Okay, this still sounds really sad... that's it, I'm mad, i'm gonna run around pelting things with mud-balls, since there's no movie theater, no mall, no beach, no entertainment WHAT SO EVER. Then a band of me and other rebel residents of the muddied-up tents will invent fire, and start having fun with that, untill either we start clan wars against each other or the all-mighty being that put us on planet Mud smotes us in our violation of constant, boring, wasteful peace.

With that I say that world peace is impossible, and even if we could achieve it, we'd all be bored stupid and life would be pointless. Now, with our current development, we don't need planet Mudball, we just need to find the problems case-by-case and apply boot to sadistic human-right-violator ass. God bless america! lol!

p.s. please disregard that last line so we don't end up on ANOTHER america-is-the-source-of-pure-eternal-evil tangent...

It is interesting that you immediately adopt the role of one of the peoples of the mud planet rather than the all powerful being. It is even more interesting that you disregarded the grass seed that was given to you and became instantly annoyed with your lot in life. Then you started wars!
As one of the peoples of the mud planet did you never consider asking the all powerful being for any help or guidance given that he set you two rules?

obviously I'd try to control myself a little more than that, I was just having some fun, but if I were a citizen of that world, I would not regard weed and divine intervention as being the everything and all of my life. That'd be a gross delusion. God wants us to make something of ourselves, and while I probably would become a mud-flinging terrorist (as hilarious as that image is...), I would definetly try to fight the simple, boring system, because if we humans didn't, something else would upset the system. Like a plague, or a crop famine, or we develop tolerance to the weed, or any number of phenomena.

"It is interesting that you immediately adopt the role of one of the peoples of the mud planet rather than the all powerful being." Oh, yeah, like I'm as shallow and power hungry as your egotistic self. Dude, get over it, you don't have the answer, nobody has, in the entire span of human history, devised an ingenious plan as to how we can solve civilization's problems once and for all. It's impossible, the only way to cure it is to employ mental and physical enslavement, which if you havnt noticed is a key element in your plan and also an obstacle that mankind has constantly overturned, smashed, and set affire as a source of evil (which it is). Humans can't be enslaved, but freedom lets us employ our knowledge of good and evil. Grin and bear it, that's the way it is.

obviously I'd try to control myself a little more than that, I was just having some fun, but if I were a citizen of that world, I would not regard weed and divine intervention as being the everything and all of my life. That'd be a gross delusion. God wants us to make something of ourselves, and while I probably would become a mud-flinging terrorist (as hilarious as that image is...), I would definetly try to fight the simple, boring system, because if we humans didn't, something else would upset the system. Like a plague, or a crop famine, or we develop tolerance to the weed, or any number of phenomena.

"It is interesting that you immediately adopt the role of one of the peoples of the mud planet rather than the all powerful being." Oh, yeah, like I'm as shallow and power hungry as your egotistic self. Dude, get over it, you don't have the answer, nobody has, in the entire span of human history, devised an ingenious plan as to how we can solve civilization's problems once and for all. It's impossible, the only way to cure it is to employ mental and physical enslavement, which if you havnt noticed is a key element in your plan and also an obstacle that mankind has constantly overturned, smashed, and set affire as a source of evil (which it is). Humans can't be enslaved, but freedom lets us employ our knowledge of good and evil. Grin and bear it, that's the way it is.

So you still wouldnt ask the all powerful being in this scenario for help?

why ask the powerful being put me on mud world in the first place! Sure I'd ask for help in desperation, but I doubt the powerful being wanting peace and perfection in society would bother going out of his way to make my life more interesting and meaningful. Now in today's reality, God does things like that, so that'd make sence to ask him for divine intervention, which I completely believe in.

You set two rules.

1) The humans must never turn on you their master.
2) The humans must treat each other with the same respect that they treat you with.

Where are the power struggles?
Over valuable resources, of course...
For various reasons, pieces of land will gain or lose value over time, leading to power struggles over valuable land.
Human relationships inevitably include their own "resources", such as sex, companionship, and family development. These resources are limited, and will lead to power struggles.

How could this system fail? What are the pitfalls?
The biggest potential pitfall is laissez-faire management.

Without active government:
The humans have no clear purpose - why are they placed there? Are they just playthings in some kind of cosmic thought experiment?
What motivates the people obey the rules?
How are power struggles resolved?

How would you deal with the problems that arose?
Active government.
Visible consequences for keeping and breaking rules.
Well defined objectives.

Over valuable resources, of course...
For various reasons, pieces of land will gain or lose value over time, leading to power struggles over valuable land.
Human relationships inevitably include their own "resources", such as sex, companionship, and family development. These resources are limited, and will lead to power struggles.


The biggest potential pitfall is laissez-faire management.

Without active government:
The humans have no clear purpose - why are they placed there? Are they just playthings in some kind of cosmic thought experiment?
What motivates the people obey the rules?
How are power struggles resolved?


Active government.
Visible consequences for keeping and breaking rules.
Well defined objectives.

Actually if the humans obeyed the two rules they were set there would be no power struggles at all :)

That's a big IF

I'm not sure if it's true, either...

1) The humans must never turn on you their master.
2) The humans must treat each other with the same respect that they treat you with.

Rule 2 relies on something so far unstated.

How much respect do the humans treat me with?
They are apparently not required to treat me with respect? It's not a rule...

Now, even when treating people with the utmost respect, it is possible to have power struggles. If two people want the same thing, but respect each other, how do they handle that situation? It sounds like a power struggle to me... just a polite one.

That's a big IF

Well if there was no if there would be no freewill. But the statement is true nonetheless. It would make much more sense as one of the humans to make friends with the super powerful being. You know He is trustworthy because he is asking you to show eachother respect. You also know he is all powerful so I would say that he himself is probably the best resourse there is.

cheers

c20

I'm not sure if it's true, either...

1) The humans must never turn on you their master.
2) The humans must treat each other with the same respect that they treat you with.

Rule 2 relies on something so far unstated.

How much respect do the humans treat me with?
They are apparently not required to treat me with respect? It's not a rule...

Now, even when treating people with the utmost respect, it is possible to have power struggles. If two people want the same thing, but respect each other, how do they handle that situation? It sounds like a power struggle to me... just a polite one.

But why wouldn't something so puny as a human, not treat something so powerful with respect given that he has commanded you?

thanks

c20

Well if there was no if there would be no freewill. But the statement is true nonetheless. It would make much more sense as one of the humans to make friends with the super powerful being. You know He is trustworthy because he is asking you to show eachother respect. You also know he is all powerful so I would say that he himself is probably the best resourse there is.
Like I said, active government.
If there's no visible consequences for following or not following the rules, then the rules are meaningless.

But why wouldn't something so puny as a human, not treat something so powerful with respect given that he has commanded you?
How do they know my power if it isn't visibly exercised?

How do they know my power if it isn't visibly exercised?

You forget that the first thing you did was 'give' them stuff that they would otherwise would never have had! Also you are who you are - you are visibly very very powerful. You can produce stuff outta nothing just by commanding it so. The humans cannot do this on there own strength but given that all things are poosible for you, you could impart some of your power to them! You could even say that if they kept your commandments all the days of their lives, that they too may become like you because you will command it so.

peace

c20

You forget that the first thing you did was 'give' them stuff that they would otherwise would never have had! Also you are who you are - you are visibly very very powerful. You can produce stuff outta nothing just by commanding it so. The humans cannot do this on there own strength but given that all things are poosible for you, you could impart some of your power to them! You could even say that if they kept your commandments all the days of their lives, that they too may become like you because you will command it so.

We agree then.

Active government.
Visible consequences for keeping and breaking rules.
Well defined objectives.

Yes, government of the lawless is absolutely necessary and since the law comes from only one authority i.e. you, it makes absolute sense to install one. Of course you would only put people in charge who did obey your commandments wouldn't you?
If everyone obeyed your commandments it could be argued however that there was no need for government since you had provided the humans with all that they needed and are willing to give more to those that ask of you.

thanks

c20

By "government", I mean that I would expect to actively govern the people in some way.
I don't mean installing a human government.

But what if you the super being wanted to go off and perhaps set up another race somewhere far off? Who would you leave in charge of the mud planet? How could you know that these humans would obey you when you were going about your own business in a place you do not want them to follow you to?

thanks

c20

But what if you the super being wanted to go off and perhaps set up another race somewhere far off?
Well that would be different, of course.

You seem to have a point that you want to make...??

You set two rules.

I set the rules -- and? Just because I set them, doesn't mean my little beings will follow them. Respect me and respect each other, you said? Isn't that what the Bible and all the rest preach? And who's paying any attention?

They'd be killing each other within days.

I set the rules -- and? Just because I set them, doesn't mean my little beings will follow them. Respect me and respect each other, you said? Isn't that what the Bible and all the rest preach? And who's paying any attention?

They'd be killing each other within days.

Hi pixel,

Thank you for responding to this thread :)

What would you do to show them the error of their ways?

peace

c20

Well that would be different, of course.

You seem to have a point that you want to make...??

Uh uh no. No point so to speak. This is not a religous forum but a human science forum. I am asking you to practice human science is all from a remote but just perspective given the scenario set. I am not trying to trip anybody up.

Thanks ( and thanks genuinley for even being bothered to consider the post << not sarcastic)

c20

You set two rules.

1) The humans must never turn on you their master.
2) The humans must treat eachother with the same respect that they treat you with.

Your system's stability rests entirely on the extend to which the humans follow these two rules.

If your goal is stability/equality/peace (and based on your rules I assume it is), your system will fail because the two rules will never be followed 100% of the time, unless there is some form of coercion.

This of course would fill the humans with resentment, which will in turn undermine your populace's adherence to the rules.

Not only that, but living in a tent on a ball of mud would really suck.

I, personally, would conspire with my neighboring mudball residents to make a tunnel network, just for the hell of it.

It depends where you get your people from.
Are they Americans? Indonesians? French?

What're the demographics?

Are they simply noble savages whom have been divinely imbued with speech and agrarian habits?

Let's go with the last. These people are completely naive of earth; all they carry with them are the assortment of genes that makes them human, the capacity to love and to be loved (otherwise child rearing would be nigh impossible).

Things would go well for these humans on their mudball for as long as the people had enough space and resources to grow. As soon as resources became scarce, there would be competition, strong men, slaves, government, inequity and injustice.
Unfortunately, competition arrises over non-material items, such as love. The men would compete over females simply for reproductive access.

In fact, there are no gregarious animals that do not compete if they have even a sembalance of free will. Caribou lockhorns and baboons occasionally kill eachother. Since humans have an enormous innate capacity for violence, it is likely that in such primitive settings that these humans would fall back to their nature very quickly.

Without divine intervention, these humans would quickly fall to squablling and fighting.

However, if as a god, I were to actively police these humans, then it'd be a perfect system. If I wanted to go populate more mudball planets with unthankful brats, I'd leave some golems behind, as police.

Unfortunately C20, your god shows very little care for his creations. There's no immediate reason to behave as you believe is appropriate, since your god stays hidden.

you said that if the humans obeyed the first two rules there would be no problems at all. Well i dunno what you think a human is but sounds like you underestimate the power free will and do not understand humans. You make it sound like humans are perfect and could follow these rules....Hmmmm....NOT GOING TO HAPPEN......if you take away free will every human will fallow these rules........but they wouldnt be humans then they would be some kind of slave race. Even if the humans wer capable of following these two rules consistenly it would be pointless........Just to let you know.....by replacing GOD with all powerful being you have not avoided or concealed what you are really talking about which is GOD im sure. Reguarless In my opinion an all powerfull being that created us with so many flaws and imperfections and over all FREE WILL seems to be very nieve (sp?) if he expects his creations to follow his law....or rules...... or example. Also in my opinion the all powerful being that created these humans should have known in the end that his creations would challenge him and disobey or rebel against his two rules which would in turn make his creations and his rules or guidlines pointless. I know that there are those who follow the rules consistenly but in order for your example to work the way you propse it to it would require EVERYONE....to think and act in the same way.......NOT GOING TO HAPPEN :)

L8rz
Sly1

Wait, so God is all powerful, but not all powerful enough to reconcile happiness and free will?

Bullshit.