View Full Version : Mass murder in the skies: was the plot feasible?


funzone36
08-18-06, 08:22 PM
Binary liquid explosives are a sexy staple of Hollywood thrillers. It would be tedious to enumerate the movie terrorists who've employed relatively harmless liquids that, when mixed, immediately rain destruction upon an innocent populace, like the seven angels of God's wrath pouring out their bowls full of pestilence and pain.

The funny thing about these movies is, we never learn just which two chemicals can be handled safely when separate, yet instantly blow us all to kingdom come when combined. Nevertheless, we maintain a great eagerness to believe in these substances, chiefly because action movies wouldn't be as much fun if we didn't.

Now we have news of the recent, supposedly real-world, terrorist plot to destroy commercial airplanes by smuggling onboard the benign precursors to a deadly explosive, and mixing up a batch of liquid death in the lavatories. So, The Register has got to ask, were these guys for real, or have they, and the counterterrorist officials supposedly protecting us, been watching too many action movies?

We're told that the suspects were planning to use TATP, or triacetone triperoxide, a high explosive that supposedly can be made from common household chemicals unlikely to be caught by airport screeners. A little hair dye, drain cleaner, and paint thinner - all easily concealed in drinks bottles - and the forces of evil have effectively smuggled a deadly bomb onboard your plane.

Or at least that's what we're hearing, and loudly, through the mainstream media and its legions of so-called "terrorism experts." But what do these experts know about chemistry? Less than they know about lobbying for Homeland Security pork, which is what most of them do for a living. But they've seen the same movies that you and I have seen, and so the myth of binary liquid explosives dies hard.
Better killing through chemistry

Making a quantity of TATP sufficient to bring down an airplane is not quite as simple as ducking into the toilet and mixing two harmless liquids together.

First, you've got to get adequately concentrated hydrogen peroxide. This is hard to come by, so a large quantity of the three per cent solution sold in pharmacies might have to be concentrated by boiling off the water. Only this is risky, and can lead to mission failure by means of burning down your makeshift lab before a single infidel has been harmed.

But let's assume that you can obtain it in the required concentration, or cook it from a dilute solution without ruining your operation. Fine. The remaining ingredients, acetone and sulfuric acid, are far easier to obtain, and we can assume that you've got them on hand.

Now for the fun part. Take your hydrogen peroxide, acetone, and sulfuric acid, measure them very carefully, and put them into drinks bottles for convenient smuggling onto a plane. It's all right to mix the peroxide and acetone in one container, so long as it remains cool. Don't forget to bring several frozen gel-packs (preferably in a Styrofoam chiller deceptively marked "perishable foods"), a thermometer, a large beaker, a stirring rod, and a medicine dropper. You're going to need them.

It's best to fly first class and order Champagne. The bucket full of ice water, which the airline ought to supply, might possibly be adequate - especially if you have those cold gel-packs handy to supplement the ice, and the Styrofoam chiller handy for insulation - to get you through the cookery without starting a fire in the lavvie.
Easy does it

Once the plane is over the ocean, very discreetly bring all of your gear into the toilet. You might need to make several trips to avoid drawing attention. Once your kit is in place, put a beaker containing the peroxide / acetone mixture into the ice water bath (Champagne bucket), and start adding the acid, drop by drop, while stirring constantly. Watch the reaction temperature carefully. The mixture will heat, and if it gets too hot, you'll end up with a weak explosive. In fact, if it gets really hot, you'll get a premature explosion possibly sufficient to kill you, but probably no one else.

After a few hours - assuming, by some miracle, that the fumes haven't overcome you or alerted passengers or the flight crew to your activities - you'll have a quantity of TATP with which to carry out your mission. Now all you need to do is dry it for an hour or two.

The genius of this scheme is that TATP is relatively easy to detonate. But you must make enough of it to crash the plane, and you must make it with care to assure potency. One needs quality stuff to commit "mass murder on an unimaginable scale," as Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Stephenson put it. While it's true that a slapdash concoction will explode, it's unlikely to do more than blow out a few windows. At best, an infidel or two might be killed by the blast, and one or two others by flying debris as the cabin suddenly depressurizes, but that's about all you're likely to manage under the most favorable conditions possible.

We believe this because a peer-reviewed 2004 study in the Journal of the American Chemical Society (JACS) entitled "Decomposition of Triacetone Triperoxide is an Entropic Explosion" tells us that the explosive force of TATP comes from the sudden decomposition of a solid into gasses. There's no rapid oxidizing of fuel, as there is with many other explosives: rather, the substance changes state suddenly through an entropic process, and quickly releases a respectable amount of energy when it does. (Thus the lack of ingredients typically associated with explosives makes TATP, a white crystalline powder resembling sugar, difficult to detect with conventional bomb sniffing gear.)

Mrs. Satan

By now you'll be asking why these jihadist wannabes didn't conspire simply to bring TATP onto planes, colored with a bit of vegetable dye, and disguised as, say, a powdered fruit-flavored drink. The reason is that they would be afraid of failing: TATP is notoriously sensitive and unstable. Mainstream journalists like to tell us that terrorists like to call it "the mother of Satan." (Whether this reputation is deserved, or is a consequence of homebrewing by unqualified hacks, remains open to debate.)

It's been claimed that the 7/7 bombers used it, but this has not been positively confirmed. Some sources claim that they used C-4, and others that they used RDX. Nevertheless, the belief that they used TATP has stuck with the media, although going about in a crowded city at rush hour with an unstable homebrew explosive in a backpack is not the brightest of all possible moves. It's surprising that none of the attackers enjoyed an unscheduled launch into Paradise.

So, assuming that the homebrew variety of TATP is highly sensitive and unstable - or at least that our inept jihadists would believe that - to avoid getting blown up in the taxi on the way to the airport, one might, if one were educated in terror tactics primarily by hollywood movies, prefer simply to dump the precursors into an airplane toilet bowl and let the mother of Satan work her magic. Indeed, the mixture will heat rapidly as TATP begins to form, and it will soon explode. But this won't happen with much force, because little TATP will have formed by the time the explosion occurs.

We asked University of Rhode Island Chemistry Professor Jimmie C. Oxley, who has actual, practical experience with TATP, if this is a reasonable assumption, and she tolds us that merely dumping the precursors together would create "a violent reaction," but not a detonation.

To release the energy needed to bring down a plane (far more difficult to do than many imagine, as Aloha Airlines Flight 243 neatly illustrates), it's necessary to synthesize a good amount of TATP with care.
Jack Bauer sense

So the fabled binary liquid explosive - that is, the sudden mixing of hydrogen peroxide and acetone with sulfuric acid to create a plane-killing explosion, is out of the question. Meanwhile, making TATP ahead of time carries a risk that the mission will fail due to premature detonation, although it is the only plausible approach.

Certainly, if we can imagine a group of jihadists smuggling the necessary chemicals and equipment on board, and cooking up TATP in the lavatory, then we've passed from the realm of action blockbusters to that of situation comedy.

It should be small comfort that the security establishments of the UK and the USA - and the "terrorism experts" who inform them and wheedle billions of dollars out of them for bomb puffers and face recognition gizmos and remote gait analyzers and similar hi-tech phrenology gear - have bought the Hollywood binary liquid explosive myth, and have even acted upon it.

We've given extraordinary credit to a collection of jihadist wannabes with an exceptionally poor grasp of the mechanics of attacking a plane, whose only hope of success would have been a pure accident. They would have had to succeed in spite of their own ignorance and incompetence, and in spite of being under police surveillance for a year.

But the Hollywood myth of binary liquid explosives now moves governments and drives public policy. We have reacted to a movie plot. Liquids are now banned in aircraft cabins (while crystalline white powders would be banned instead, if anyone in charge were serious about security). Nearly everything must now go into the hold, where adequate amounts of explosives can easily be detonated from the cabin with cell phones, which are generally not banned.
Action heroes

The al-Qaeda franchise will pour forth its bowl of pestilence and death. We know this because we've watched it countless times on TV and in the movies, just as our officials have done. Based on their behavior, it's reasonable to suspect that everything John Reid and Michael Chertoff know about counterterrorism, they learned watching the likes of Bruce Willis, Jean-Claude Van Damme, Vin Diesel, and The Rock (whose palpable homoerotic appeal it would be discourteous to emphasize).

It's a pity that our security rests in the hands of government officials who understand as little about terrorism as the Florida clowns who needed their informant to suggest attack scenarios, as the 21/7 London bombers who injured no one, as lunatic "shoe bomber" Richard Reid, as the Forest Gate nerve gas attackers who had no nerve gas, as the British nitwits who tried to acquire "red mercury," and as the recent binary liquid bomb attackers who had no binary liquid bombs.

For some real terror, picture twenty guys who understand op-sec, who are patient, realistic, clever, and willing to die, and who know what can be accomplished with a modest stash of dimethylmercury.

You won't hear about those fellows until it's too late. Our official protectors and deciders trumpet the fools they catch because they haven't got a handle on the people we should really be afraid of. They make policy based on foibles and follies, and Hollywood plots.

Meanwhile, the real thing draws ever closer. ®

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/

Fraggle Rocker
08-19-06, 03:30 PM
Terrorists kill 3,000 Americans every five years... and counting. During the same five years drunk drivers kill about 50,000 Americans. We know who most of them are, but we don't even ostracize them, much less persecute them.

If we want to save some lives, put the money into breast cancer research.

Sci-Phenomena
08-19-06, 06:05 PM
Bush funds terrorists, so he is one of them, I love how he covers himself in a stinky completely hypocritical blanket of bullshit to blind the people, especially with the way things are going in the world of late.

So check this out, instead of letting your TV's tell you what Iran is up to, why don't you instead listen to what the President of Iran says.... Very interesting 60 Minutes Interview!

Interview with the President of Iran (http://news.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/08/15/60-minutes-iranian-president-mahmoud-ahmadinejad-video/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fthrowawayyourtv.com%2F2006%2F08% 2F60-minutes-iranian-president-mahmoud.html&frame=true)

funzone36
08-20-06, 01:09 PM
This mother****ed up terrorist attack just convinces Americans that the Iraq War has made them LESS safe.

spidergoat
08-21-06, 11:24 AM
I'm not sure who wrote that really understands the chemistry (I don't). There might be only two liquids that need to be mixed on board, or they may take the chance with the pre-mixed material and just pack it carefully.

Nasor
08-21-06, 01:27 PM
You wouldn't need to actually make the TATP on the plane, just make it beforehand and dissolve a lot of it in acetone, then take the acetone/TATP solution on the plane.

swivel
08-21-06, 03:51 PM
funzone... that was a brilliant post and a wonderful read. I'm sure your science is sound. I just have a hard time discounting the abilities of terrorists since I was standing at the WTC when both planes flew directly overhead and took out the two buildings I lived in the shadow of.

I'm sure if we had nabbed the 9/11 guys, we would have laughed on September 12th about these silly terrorists with their box-cutters and a few days in a simulator. Airline pilots would have been drug on camera to tell us how difficult flying a passenger jet is, and that nobody stood a chance of navigating to, and hitting the WTC or the Pentagon and White House. FAA officials would have told us how hard it would be to take over a cockpit with rudimentary blades and a bit of close-combat training. And structural engineers would have mocked the simple notion that a single plane strike would take down either building, or modestly dent the Pentagon, or make it through the airspace of the White House.

And the American people would blissfully go about their lives never aware of what "might have been", of what great tragedy was narrowly avoided by some decent policework. Just as we dismiss all of these claims, and have zero appreciation of a disaster that will not happen.

MetaKron
08-21-06, 05:16 PM
Decent police work is impossible in this atmosphere. Sensationalism is all they know how to do.

Blackrain
08-21-06, 07:06 PM
funzone... that was a brilliant post and a wonderful read. I'm sure your science is sound. I just have a hard time discounting the abilities of terrorists since I was standing at the WTC when both planes flew directly overhead and took out the two buildings I lived in the shadow of.

I'm sure if we had nabbed the 9/11 guys, we would have laughed on September 12th about these silly terrorists with their box-cutters and a few days in a simulator. Airline pilots would have been drug on camera to tell us how difficult flying a passenger jet is, and that nobody stood a chance of navigating to, and hitting the WTC or the Pentagon and White House. FAA officials would have told us how hard it would be to take over a cockpit with rudimentary blades and a bit of close-combat training. And structural engineers would have mocked the simple notion that a single plane strike would take down either building, or modestly dent the Pentagon, or make it through the airspace of the White House.

And the American people would blissfully go about their lives never aware of what "might have been", of what great tragedy was narrowly avoided by some decent policework. Just as we dismiss all of these claims, and have zero appreciation of a disaster that will not happen.

Those planes didn't bring down the WTC. The WTC was built like a fortress. Check out this video from a MIT physicist regarding the collapses. He's concluded that BOMBS brought down the buildings. So please stop believing that Terrorists are these superhuman John Rambos. Who're capable of defeating Trillion dollar security systems with box cutters and a Quran.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Son0BWduQx4

Buffalo Roam
08-21-06, 07:24 PM
I have just done a little trip through Google land and have found 129,000 site that will tell me how to use home chemicals to make some beautiful explosives and it confirms what I learned in the Army in the improvised explosives section in my Demolition Class.

Sci-Phenomena
08-21-06, 07:27 PM
Since I know that most Americans are patriotic deep down in their hearts, I know all you Americans should care enough to watch this short video which investigates the collapse of the two towers. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Son0BWduQx4 )

Sci-Phenomena
08-21-06, 07:35 PM
Go ahead, wave your "credentials" but you know for damn sure that not all 129,000 of those websites will accurately tell you anything about explosives.

Hey you guys, is it me or is there two very different conversations going on in this thread?

Blackrain
08-21-06, 07:56 PM
Buffalo is a spook. He doesn't have an objective mind. His modus operandi is to peedle the Government spin, not make objective conclusions on anything we discuss here. He still thinks we found WMD's in Iraq. Eventhough Bush said in his speech today no WMD's were found, and that Iraq wasn't connected to 911. But spooks like Buffalo keep perpetuating these myths. MSNBC had a terrorism expert on the other day. Who concluded that this would of been a very difficult plan to pull off. Because they had to construct the bomb on the plane. And I don't in the post 911 world, that 200 plus passengers will allow a Muslim man to mix anything other than Water on a plane.

swivel
08-22-06, 08:25 AM
Those planes didn't bring down the WTC.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Son0BWduQx4

:eek:

You know the silly mistake that you conspiracy theorists make? You keep talking about the temperature required to ~Melt~ steel, when that is not what is required at all. You don't need to puddle the metal, when there is a few dozen floors of weight on it... all you have to do is ~Weaken~ the metal. That can happen with much less temperature than there was in the WTC.

And I was standing right there. No bombs went off. The building didn't start falling from the ground floors, it fell at the point of impact, and that weight started a chain reaction.

Of course, I say all of this to speak truth to the void, once you have swallowed the Conspiracy Pill, it is too late... no amount of reason in the world can save you now...

Nasor
08-22-06, 10:18 AM
Two points here. First, as I already mentioned, there is no need to actually make the explosive on the plane. You could make it beforehand and simply dissolve it into something like acetone, then take that on the plane.

Second, the procedure that you describe for making TATP seems to have come from a 1959 issue of the Journal of the American Chemical Society. The (safe) procedures that a chemist in a lab would use to make TATP isn't the only way to make it. I don’t think you actually need the sulfuric acid, and you certainly don’t need to cool it in ice. There is a fair chance that it will explode when you’re making it, but all you really need to do is poor some acetone into some hydrogen peroxide and let it sit for a bit.

Stryder
08-22-06, 10:40 AM
WTC higher floors were Aluminium framework because the structures height and weight would of been too great for it's foundations. Aluminium has a lower melting point than steel and therefore would have a weakened structure that would collapse under weight of 15 other floors.

As for mixing chemicals, If it's not about blowing something up, it's about scare tactics. an old quote used in many underground tunes is "6 million ways to die", you could probably suggest the same number of ways to blow things up, scare people etc.

Blackrain
08-22-06, 02:32 PM
:eek:

You know the silly mistake that you conspiracy theorists make? You keep talking about the temperature required to ~Melt~ steel, when that is not what is required at all. You don't need to puddle the metal, when there is a few dozen floors of weight on it... all you have to do is ~Weaken~ the metal. That can happen with much less temperature than there was in the WTC.

And I was standing right there. No bombs went off. The building didn't start falling from the ground floors, it fell at the point of impact, and that weight started a chain reaction.

Of course, I say all of this to speak truth to the void, once you have swallowed the Conspiracy Pill, it is too late... no amount of reason in the world can save you now...

Can you please use science, not conjecture to make your point as Jeff King, and us "conspiracy theorist" do. That's the difference between you and us. We use science, you use conjecture. Here's some pictures of the Madrid Fire.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spain_fire_2005.html


This fire bured at 1472 degrees F. This fire burned for over 24 HOURS. And after 24 hours the Steele Structure held. The Kerosene based fire that engulfed the WTC was not as violent as the Madrid Fire. The Madrid fire covered more floors, and the Madrid Building wasn't desinged with retractable steele shafts that closed, to deprive a fire of oxygen whenever the building caught ablaze. I can't believe you're stupid enough to believe the only Skyscraper to fall to a fire was the WTC. Can you please explain in SCIENCE why the Madrid building stood up to bigger, longer lasting fire then the WTC?


*crickets*

Blackrain
08-22-06, 03:21 PM
WTC higher floors were Aluminium framework because the structures height and weight would of been too great for it's foundations. Aluminium has a lower melting point than steel and therefore would have a weakened structure that would collapse under weight of 15 other floors.

.

Dude, you just contradicted your own post. Im sorry, but can you link me the article that says the top 13 floors were aluminum? And If so, I refuse to believe that 13 floors of Aluminum can take down 200 plus stories of steele.

Your physcis sucks.

Pete
08-22-06, 06:42 PM
Can you please explain in SCIENCE why the Madrid building stood up to bigger, longer lasting fire then the WTC?
Done (http://patriot-american.com/documents/85.html) to (http://www.debunking911.com/firsttime.htm) death (http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/9/11_coverup) . (http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/02/310898.shtml)

spidergoat
08-22-06, 06:46 PM
Can you please explain in SCIENCE why the Madrid building stood up to bigger, longer lasting fire then the WTC?
SCIENCE would compare two identical buildings and two identical airplanes at identical speeds. Failing that, we can only do a forensic investigation.

Blackrain
08-22-06, 07:19 PM
SCIENCE would compare two identical buildings and two identical airplanes at identical speeds. Failing that, we can only do a forensic investigation.


Their arguments are based in Science, conjecture doesn't qualify as science. Once the real "Scientists" got a hold of the steele, they found the steele had traces of Thermate in it. And until that's been disproven, I'm not buying into the Governments theory.

swivel
08-22-06, 07:36 PM
A conspiracy theorist is asking me to refrain from using conjecture! Wowsers.

So... the fact that they were brought down by bombs, by our own government, to allow a war, to get some oil... all of that is based on science?

You don't even have any science to back up the bomb theory. All you have is the seemingly bizarre fact that the only two skyscrapers to have passenger jets fly into them, both fell. Both fell in the same way.

Besides, your theory is just silly. Why fly planes into buildings, and then blow them up? Why not just blow the buildings up, and frame the terrorists? You guys don't seem to really think your theories through...

And what is up with the crickets? Is this going to be some sort of juvenille contest of sorts? Because I can't stand those.

MetaKron
08-22-06, 08:14 PM
Never minding the 9/11 theories, I don't know how anyone could make an explosive by mixing it with substantial quantities of water. I don't know who dreamed up this shit, but it's just another way to take a slice off our liberties and our already fried nerves. It isn't some terrorists that I'm afraid of, it's when, not if, the U.S. government conducts an all-out attack against its own constituents. Doesn't anyone else here know where this kind of paranoia ends? It doesn't take an expert in human history. They always do this, and they get away with it because people won't stop it.

Blackrain
08-24-06, 03:37 PM
Never minding the 9/11 theories, I don't know how anyone could make an explosive by mixing it with substantial quantities of water. I don't know who dreamed up this shit, but it's just another way to take a slice off our liberties and our already fried nerves. It isn't some terrorists that I'm afraid of, it's when, not if, the U.S. government conducts an all-out attack against its own constituents. Doesn't anyone else here know where this kind of paranoia ends? It doesn't take an expert in human history. They always do this, and they get away with it because people won't stop it.


Because People like Swivel, Spidergoat, are enablers. They'll allways side with the Elite, inorder to supress the middle classes that threatens their power base. The Rich has allways been at war with the poor. And it's enablers like these creeps who keep them in power.

swivel
08-24-06, 03:57 PM
Because People like Swivel, Spidergoat, are enablers. They'll allways side with the Elite, inorder to supress the middle classes that threatens their power base. The Rich has allways been at war with the poor. And it's enablers like these creeps who keep them in power.

Now you are calling me a creep?

Make fun of my views all you like, but let's refrain from name-calling. It is one of the very few rules here, and what keeps us all civilized. Bash my point of view all you like, even lump me in with whatever group you think I belong to (rather than engaging me in a discussion, and asking me about myself), but please stop with the insults.

All it does is marginalize your viewpoint even more, and makes me lose my respect for you, and any desire I have to converse with you. And then we both lose, because it is far more constructive to debate with people you disagree with than it is to head-nod with a bunch of like-minded friends.

Blackrain
08-24-06, 04:19 PM
Now you are calling me a creep?

Make fun of my views all you like, but let's refrain from name-calling. It is one of the very few rules here, and what keeps us all civilized. Bash my point of view all you like, even lump me in with whatever group you think I belong to (rather than engaging me in a discussion, and asking me about myself), but please stop with the insults.

All it does is marginalize your viewpoint even more, and makes me lose my respect for you, and any desire I have to converse with you. And then we both lose, because it is far more constructive to debate with people you disagree with than it is to head-nod with a bunch of like-minded friends.

Here's the problem with "creeps" like you. You give the Elite every benefit of the doubt when it comes to 911 for instance. Enablers like you accept the blurry video the Pentagon provided, showing that a "blur" hit the Pentagaon. They refuse to release the other 84 camera angles, or the confiscated surveillance tapes from the surrounding bussineses. NOW, lets say if a "Ufologist" presented the same "blurry" video as evidence to support a theory of an Alien visiting Earth. You would laugh them all the way back to Seti. And tell them that a "blurry" video doesn't qualify as evidence. But you'll give the Pentagon the benefit of the doubt. And take their "word" for it. Eventhough there's not one smoking gun to back up the Governments tapes.

No Black Boxes, No footage showing of the other 18 hi-jackers boarding the planes, no Surveillance footage, refusing to the let the firefighters testify before the 911 commision. Bush & Cheney not going on the record as to what happend on 911 etc. But go right ahead and support these crooks, you creep!

fadingCaptain
08-24-06, 04:38 PM
In the words of Ray Davies: Paranoia, the destroyer

People need to chill and try and think rationally. Fear of terrorism is shaping our world. Islamaphobes, conspiracy theorists, etc.

All paranoid androids. (to quote another great song)

Is is something we should try and prevent? Sure. Is it something we should be particularily concerned with? No, not really. Lots more people die of things under our direct control.

MetaKron
08-24-06, 07:12 PM
Here's the problem with "creeps" like you. You give the Elite every benefit of the doubt when it comes to 911 for instance. Enablers like you accept the blurry video the Pentagon provided, showing that a "blur" hit the Pentagaon. They refuse to release the other 84 camera angles, or the confiscated surveillance tapes from the surrounding bussineses. NOW, lets say if a "Ufologist" presented the same "blurry" video as evidence to support a theory of an Alien visiting Earth. You would laugh them all the way back to Seti. And tell them that a "blurry" video doesn't qualify as evidence. But you'll give the Pentagon the benefit of the doubt. And take their "word" for it. Eventhough there's not one smoking gun to back up the Governments tapes.

No Black Boxes, No footage showing of the other 18 hi-jackers boarding the planes, no Surveillance footage, refusing to the let the firefighters testify before the 911 commision. Bush & Cheney not going on the record as to what happend on 911 etc. But go right ahead and support these crooks, you creep!

In spite of fragrant speeches about paranoia, the fact is that there is absolutely no legitimate reason for the government to refuse to release all of the video evidence that they have.

If they want to run some game to make us think that they are hiding something, by actually hiding something, damn them to hell. They are just about as evil as it gets.

funzone36
08-26-06, 02:33 PM
A conspiracy theorist is asking me to refrain from using conjecture! Wowsers.

So... the fact that they were brought down by bombs, by our own government, to allow a war, to get some oil... all of that is based on science?

You don't even have any science to back up the bomb theory. All you have is the seemingly bizarre fact that the only two skyscrapers to have passenger jets fly into them, both fell. Both fell in the same way.

Besides, your theory is just silly. Why fly planes into buildings, and then blow them up? Why not just blow the buildings up, and frame the terrorists? You guys don't seem to really think your theories through...

And what is up with the crickets? Is this going to be some sort of juvenille contest of sorts? Because I can't stand those.

This thread was not about 9/11 but instead, it was about the recent British-muslims blowing up 9 planes in the sky.

The buildings fell at free fall speed similar to how a demolished building would fall. Some of you claim you didn't hear any bomb when you were at ground zero when the WTC fell. That was because you were too far away from the point of impact. There is a video showing a few firefighters who barely escaped heard the explosions.

The government also used planes to crash into the WTC because in 1993, there was a similiar plot to blow up the WTC with bombs. They failed so back then so this time, they made sure that they would succeed by using 2 fathal methods.

You don't like being called a creep but we similarly don't want to be called conspiracy theorists.