Dont you think that man wrote the bible to be used as a guide to act as a decent person and used god to give them a reason to belief the bible. I dont think the bible is ment to be taken so literally. THe bible is just a book with god being the main character, and hopfully you learn a thing or two.

Dont you think that man wrote the bible to be used as a guide to act as a decent person and used god to give them a reason to belief the bible. I dont think the bible is ment to be taken so literally. THe bible is just a book with god being the main character, and hopfully you learn a thing or two.

Bible is not a book. It's a collection of books written by different authors with different opinions. Any moral teachings are outdated by 2000 years.

A lot of books in the bible has absolutely nothing to do with God. Song of Songs for example, has more to do with erotic sex than God. Half of NT is about Paul.

Dont you think that man wrote the bible to be used as a guide to act as a decent person and used god to give them a reason to belief the bible. I dont think the bible is ment to be taken so literally. THe bible is just a book with god being the main character, and hopfully you learn a thing or two.

Who wrote the Bible?
Go to this website for an answer

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible1.html

"It's hard for us to consider the profound impact of this text on human history without thinking that there was a divine hand in its authorship, whether the human author was one or many." (Quote from Straightdope.com)

The Bible was written by the Holy Spirit through men, and it is more than just a book, it is a spiritual tool. Men may use God's word with malintent, but you are not to learn from men, but from God Himself. God uses His word to teach the truth to those who desire to know it. It says in the Bible itself that the it is only to be interpreted to you by the Holy Spirit, who is the author. If the Bible is used/interpreted by men, without the Holy Spirit, then it can be dangerous because men don't stand a chance at getting it right on their own. Actually, for someone to not seek the counsel and interpretation of the Holy Spirit means that their intent is not to get it right, or understand truth, as most people don't want the truth, they just want to feed their egos somehow.

And just so you know, the Holy Spirit wrote some things through me last year...some poetry. God told me to write a letter to someone, and when I sat down to try to do it, I fell into some type of "trance like state", and seven paragraphs of poetry came out of me. This happened twice...two separate writings...the second one being seven paragraphs of exactly 10 lines each. This writing was part of a miracle that happened to me...it was amazing, and I'd be glad to share details if anyone is interested.

Love muffins,

Lori

God told me to write a letter to someone, and when I sat down to try to do it, I fell into some type of "trance like state", and seven paragraphs of poetry came out of me.

this is just my opinion but i think your subconscious wrote it and i think the "voice of god" is just a voice of the "higher self" (psychology)

Lori,

The Bible was written by the Holy Spirit through men,

Well no. The Holy Spirit is a fictional concept concocted by early Christians at around 300CE when they realized that the religion they had created was polytheistic yet they were claiming it was monotheistic. The trinity kludge was an idiotic idea then as it is now.

And the bible is a collection of imaginative fairy tales and mythologies. There is no single alleged supernatural incident claimed in the bible that can be shown to have a shred of truth.

It says in the Bible itself that the it is only to be interpreted to you by the Holy Spirit, who is the author.

Clever propaganda devised in a futile attempt to hide its outrageous contradictions and glaring irrationality. Very much like the story of the emperor’s new clothes – what, you can’t see the clothes well then you must be an idiot – what, you can’t understand the bible well then you are not blessed by the Holy Spirit. Gee it is amazing how so many people can be so gullible.

Actually, for someone to not seek the counsel and interpretation of the Holy Spirit means that their intent is not to get it right, or understand truth, as most people don't want the truth, they just want to feed their egos somehow.

It is also not surprising that it is largely the least intelligent and the less educated that so easily buy such drivel.

And just so you know, the Holy Spirit wrote some things through me last year...some poetry.

Aw shucks – if you have a good imagination and are creative then take some credit for it. In the same way those who do wrong should take responsibility for their actions rather than blame imaginary anti-gods and the like.

Love muffins,

Backatcha.

Cris,

God shows Himself to everyone who desires to know the truth about Him. Those who sincerely want to know Him do. I do. It's personal, and perfect. He knows the perfect way to show you if you want to know.

Well what can you say to that. :rolleyes:

Well what can you say to that. :rolleyes:


In a word?

Bullshit.

:)

I for one would like to know god, if it exists, to be honest. No direct reply yet, but a couple of hints. The main one was "stay as far away from the craphole that is abrahamic religions and you'll be on the right path."

Lori,

God shows Himself to everyone who desires to know the truth about Him. Those who sincerely want to know Him do. I do. It's personal, and perfect. He knows the perfect way to show you if you want to know.

That is an entirely consistent perspective for anyone who is convinced that such an imaginary being exists. But such a personal viewpoint in the absence of independent verification is indistinguishable from delusion, which is considerably more credible and believable.

What can you say that would convince anyone that what you claim is anything other than your imagination?

Cris,

God shows Himself to everyone who desires to know the truth about Him. Those who sincerely want to know Him do. I do. It's personal, and perfect. He knows the perfect way to show you if you want to know.

And if this doesn't happen?
What is your answer then? That said person just hasn't wanted it enough, or that "things take time"?

Lori,



That is an entirely consistent perspective for anyone who is convinced that such an imaginary being exists. But such a personal viewpoint in the absence of independent verification is indistinguishable from delusion, which is considerably more credible and believable.

What can you say that would convince anyone that what you claim is anything other than your imagination?

We are not to be convinced by humans that God exists, anyway.

If convinced of God's existence by humans, then it is not God's existence you have been convinced of, but of a person's reason to believe in God. A person's reason to believe in God and belief in God are two separate things.

Bible is not a book. It's a collection of books written by different authors with different opinions. Any moral teachings are outdated by 2000 years.

A lot of books in the bible has absolutely nothing to do with God. Song of Songs for example, has more to do with erotic sex than God. Half of NT is about Paul.

you are a moron. erotic sex????

the whole of the bible is related to God.

And the new testament is also about jesus. That's like saying if a chapter in a book doesn't mention the main character, then that part of the book has nothing to do with him. which is nonsense.

The Holy Spirit is a fictional concept concocted by early Christians at around 300CE when they realized that the religion they had created was polytheistic yet they were claiming it was monotheistic.

i think the holy spirit is a sort of universal self: there are many consciousness... but only one "spirit". polytheistic religions are also monotheistic because they believe those "gods" (colors) are parts of one supreme "god" (light).

i think finding god is to find 'oneself'... those who believe in god ask him to forgive them... those who do not believe in god try to forgive themselves... it's the same thign.

Water,

We are not to be convinced by humans that God exists, anyway.Says who? Christians right? It’s a dishonest tactic to divert attention from the fact they cannot independently support their claims.

If convinced of God's existence by humans, then it is not God's existence you have been convinced of, but of a person's reason to believe in God.And if their reason is based on independent proof then the conviction would be accurate.

A person's reason to believe in God and belief in God are two separate things.One follows from the other.

Not sure what point you were trying to make.

Yorda,

i think the holy spirit is a sort of universal self: there are many consciousness... but only one "spirit". polytheistic religions are also monotheistic because they believe those "gods" (colors) are parts of one supreme "god" (light).Imaginative but this doesn’t indicate whether any of that is real.

i think finding god is to find 'oneself'... those who believe in god ask him to forgive them... those who do not believe in god try to forgive themselves... it's the same thign.Interesting choice of perspective. You appear to be limiting theistic belief to the problem of screwing-up. When something has been done it cannot be undone and one must learn to live with that. It’s that simple. I don’t see why a spiritual aspect has to enter the scene.

back to the point, i beleive that at one point the bible was a fictional piece attempting to teach a good moral. however, over time the meaning of the bible has been warped and twisted whole parts have went missing and a lot have been lost in translation (the stable for example was translated wrong and new research suggests it was a cave he was born in, which apparently would make more sense historically) now the bible is obsolete and just doesn't relate to today

Jeremirroer: you are a moron. erotic sex????

the whole of the bible is related to God.

And the new testament is also about jesus. That's like saying if a chapter in a book doesn't mention the main character, then that part of the book has nothing to do with him. which is nonsense.
*************
M*W: Now I've heard it all! Further to Joeman's reference to Song of Songs, that "erotic sex" he mentioned was to have occurred between Mary Magdalen and Jesus! Read some of the works by biblical scholars like Elaine Pagels, Karen King, and Laurence Gardner, et al.. What the fuck (pun intended) is so wrong about erotic sex anyway? Are you that severely anally retentive? How old are you anyway? You sound just like another brainlessly programmed xian teenager who's been blinded by the beliefs of his parentally enforced religion which just happens to be one big lie. Get a life, dude.

Yorda: i think finding god is to find 'oneself'... those who believe in god ask him to forgive them... those who do not believe in god try to forgive themselves... it's the same thign.
*************
M*W: Very good, Yorda! You explain this concept well. What we 'call' god is not the white-bearded old guy sitting on a cloud with lightning bolts to strike us down. Although I don't believe in a supernatural kind of god, I do believe in the higher self. Forgiveness of others is a xian concept. Forgiving ourselves brings us to higher enlightenment.

Lori,



That is an entirely consistent perspective for anyone who is convinced that such an imaginary being exists. But such a personal viewpoint in the absence of independent verification is indistinguishable from delusion, which is considerably more credible and believable.

What can you say that would convince anyone that what you claim is anything other than your imagination?


I would say "see for yourself".

I could witness all day long about what God has done for me and with me, about my rebirth, and about my miracle, and all day long people like you would call me a delusional liar. You would call me that without wanting to know me, or wanting to see evidence, or hear corroboration, or anything else. Face it, you just don't want to know. So don't blame it on organized religion or me or anyone else who is born again, or on God Himself.

Why would you ever want to take someone's word for it anyway? That's not prudent. And hence, God makes it so that you have to find out for yourself, and you have to find out from Him, and only because you sincerely want to know.

And if this doesn't happen?
What is your answer then? That said person just hasn't wanted it enough, or that "things take time"?

Well, you have to sincerely want to know the truth about God. Many times, well for me anyway, it took being humbled quite a bit, which was very uncomfortable...still is, but getting much easier. I'm not judging you....I don't know where your heart is at, but God does. And I'm a great one to talk to regarding "the waiting". The waiting is the hardest part. But God doesn't make us wait to torture us, but to teach us...to make sure we are ready to receive what we've asked for....a step at a time....it doesn't happen overnight...it's a process. But step by step, he will lead you through perfectly and in your best interest, and the best interest of all. He teaches you through life experience. It's never obvious what He's doing because you can't anticipate Him, His means, and His plan for your salvation and redemption....He's way too over the top. But when it's all said and done, you'll be grateful and joyous....yea, I said joyous.

M*W: Very good, Yorda! You explain this concept well. What we 'call' god is not the white-bearded old guy sitting on a cloud with lightning bolts to strike us down.
***********
Yorda: But no one sees god like that today. They see him as an invisible all-knowing person whatever... people still want to worship a concrete "person", some sort of figure... (before, they worshipped physical "images" like the sun) later, people will not honor gods anymore, not the same way at least. We can clearly see that all those gods are natural forces and things like that... so, they are not really false. Natural forces exist. And there also is a "thing" that created everything.
***********
M*W: Although I don't believe in a supernatural kind of god, I do believe in the higher self.
***********
Yorda: I believe with certainty, that this higher self is what religions talk about when they refer to God. This may sound ridiculous, but when we understand more about ourselves, we also begin to understand this.
***********
M*W: Forgiveness of others is a xian concept. Forgiving ourselves brings us to higher enlightenment.
***********
Yorda: Many atheists say you can't forgive yourself fully and you have to live with what you've done.

Imaginative but this doesn’t indicate whether any of that is real.

What is real and what is not is just a matter of choice or belief. We can never say with absolute certainty, what is real..

When something has been done it cannot be undone and one must learn to live with that.

Why would it have to be undone? Nothing is no one's fault really.

Hitler wasn't evil. If you were born under the same circumstances, in the same body, you would have done the same thing. However, the things that happened through Hitler were evil (to most people)

I don’t see why a spiritual aspect has to enter the scene.

I didn't say anything about anything 'spiritual', although I don't believe in material reality.

What is real and what is not is just a matter of choice or belief. We can never say with absolute certainty, what is real..

The statement should read : "What is real and what is not is just a matter of choice or belief. I can never say with absolute certainty, what is real.."

I would say "see for yourself".

I could witness all day long about what God has done for me and with me, about my rebirth, and about my miracle, and all day long people like you would call me a delusional liar. You would call me that without wanting to know me, or wanting to see evidence, or hear corroboration, or anything else. Face it, you just don't want to know. So don't blame it on organized religion or me or anyone else who is born again, or on God Himself.

Why would you ever want to take someone's word for it anyway? That's not prudent. And hence, God makes it so that you have to find out for yourself, and you have to find out from Him, and only because you sincerely want to know.

i think a lot of people will not want to listen to what christians have to say because finally there is a lot of people actually thinking for themselves for once. i have nothing against anyone who chose the path they have chosen of there own accord but i really dont like those who were "brought up" to be christian, catholics are especially bad for this the phrase "i was a catholic since before i was born" reigns true. Being forced into going to church myself and constantly getting the story of jesus force fed to me at an early age i've gotten quite sick of the majority of christians who look down on any other religion other than there own. i can't help but stereotype them because in my experience most of them are the same.
however i do like the satanic approach of indoctrination (that is the church established by Anton LaVey, not the b-movie animal sacrificing satanist), the satanic church actually tells its existing members not to invite everybody and try and not convert its quite happy the way it is. Satanism has a lot of really good points of view, i dissagree with a couple of key elements which means i can't really be a satanist (namely magick, and the rule against self-destruction which means no drugs or drink)

M*W: Very good, Yorda! You explain this concept well. What we 'call' god is not the white-bearded old guy sitting on a cloud with lightning bolts to strike us down.
*************
Yorda: But no one sees god like that today. They see him as an invisible all-knowing person whatever... people still want to worship a concrete "person", some sort of figure... (before, they worshipped physical "images" like the sun) later, people will not honor gods anymore, not the same way at least. We can clearly see that all those gods are natural forces and things like that... so, they are not really false. Natural forces exist. And there also is a "thing" that created everything.
*************
M*W: I feel certain that many people still see their God that way, as a "person," etc..
*************
Yorda: I believe with certainty, that this higher self is what religions talk about when they refer to God. This may sound ridiculous, but when we understand more about ourselves, we also begin to understand this.
*************
M*W: I tend to agree with this concept. If there is a God, then God would simply be our higher selves.
*************
Yorda: Many atheists say you can't forgive yourself fully and you have to live with what you've done.
*************
M*W: There is nothing that would prevent an atheist from forgiving himself. Even though one must live with themselves, forgiveness of oneself is always an option. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

i think a lot of people will not want to listen to what christians have to say because finally there is a lot of people actually thinking for themselves for once. i have nothing against anyone who chose the path they have chosen of there own accord but i really dont like those who were "brought up" to be christian, catholics are especially bad for this the phrase "i was a catholic since before i was born" reigns true. Being forced into going to church myself and constantly getting the story of jesus force fed to me at an early age i've gotten quite sick of the majority of christians who look down on any other religion other than there own. i can't help but stereotype them because in my experience most of them are the same.


I've had the same experience myself which turned me off to organized religion at a young age, and still to this day. It's not cool. It's a false witness to Christ is what it is. Jesus never force fed anyone religion. He had a thing or two to explain to the pharisees about being born again though.

Yo Lori.. Hows that rock star god said you'd get together with well over a year ago?

Yo Lori.. Hows that rock star god said you'd get together with well over a year ago?

I would imagine he's at his best...they're in the studio.

So the god promise has still not come true? I mean c'mon.. without me trawling through year old posts you did say god, (jesus), had told you that you would be together with this rock star, (who you supposedly communicate with through dream visions and shit), valentines day 2004.

Nearly a year and a half has past and as such I must ask you the same question I asked back then: Are you willing to accept the possibility that it was nothing but a personal delusion? That no deity came down and told you anything, but that your brain, (for whatever reason), made it all up?

Well, you have to sincerely want to know the truth about God.
/.../
But step by step, he will lead you through perfectly and in your best interest, and the best interest of all. He teaches you through life experience. It's never obvious what He's doing because you can't anticipate Him, His means, and His plan for your salvation and redemption....He's way too over the top. But when it's all said and done, you'll be grateful and joyous....yea, I said joyous.

This is something only someone who already believes can say "you have to sincerely want to know the truth about God.", and esp. elsewhere, where you speak about how I must truly desire to know Jesus. Those are things only someone who already believes can say. Not an outsider.

Cris,


We are not to be convinced by humans that God exists, anyway.

Says who? Christians right? It’s a dishonest tactic to divert attention from the fact they cannot independently support their claims.

No. If people believe in God because of other people, then they don't believe in God, but in other people. That's the problem. So you should not rely on people to tell you what *you* should think of God. Others can offer possible paths to God, but this is not to say they will work for you.

It has nothing to do with being unable to independently support their claims.


“ If convinced of God's existence by humans, then it is not God's existence you have been convinced of, but of a person's reason to believe in God. ”

And if their reason is based on independent proof then the conviction would be accurate.


“ A person's reason to believe in God and belief in God are two separate things. ”

One follows from the other.
Not sure what point you were trying to make.

My point is that one does *not* follow from the other. Usually, they *appear* together, yes, but this doesn't mean that there is indeed a causal relation between the reason one has to believe in something, and the said thing.

We believe in electrons, quarks, black holes etc. because there is a reasonable, believable explanation for their existence. We do not know of their existence directly. We only have believable reasons to believe in their existence -- because the explanations seems valid, not because we knew the thing was there, or not.

This is why to us, it is essentially circumstantial whether they truly exist or not. The scientific method is bound to be ultimately unreliable exactly for the reason that it can never say what is there and what is not, it can only give (temporarily) more or less believable reasons that said thing exists or not.

Belief in God avoids this human hurdle by leaving it up to God to grant a person direct knowledge of Him, or not.

Of course, few are willing to let God decide who will believe in Him, and who won't.

So the god promise has still not come true? I mean c'mon.. without me trawling through year old posts you did say god, (jesus), had told you that you would be together with this rock star, (who you supposedly communicate with through dream visions and shit), valentines day 2004.

Nearly a year and a half has past and as such I must ask you the same question I asked back then: Are you willing to accept the possibility that it was nothing but a personal delusion? That no deity came down and told you anything, but that your brain, (for whatever reason), made it all up?


It was Halloween, and I did not say that God told me that rock star and I would be together then. God has never said when. I am the one who speculated that it would be on Halloween and was wrong. Um, I'm wrong alot...lol...so I try not to speculate when it comes to Him, and just let Him do His thing in my life, and stand in awe and amazement when He does. *shrug* I should know better than to try to anticipate Him...I'm learning...on Halloween last year, I learned the hard way. I'm not gonna lie....it's been really hard...all this waiting. I got pretty depressed for a while. Not because I could ever think as you suggest, and chalk the whole experience up as some delusion, but just because I wasn't getting what I wanted fast enough.

This is something only someone who already believes can say "you have to sincerely want to know the truth about God.", and esp. elsewhere, where you speak about how I must truly desire to know Jesus. Those are things only someone who already believes can say. Not an outsider.


You can say "I don't know, but I sincerely want to know. God, if you're real, then show me...prove it to me." The initial truth about God is His existence.

M*W: There is nothing that would prevent an atheist from forgiving himself. Even though one must live with themselves, forgiveness of oneself is always an option. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
*************
Yorda: If a person who believes in God, asks for his forgiveness, I think this person is unconsciously asking forgiveness of himself. Jesus said "remember that your father knows, what your needs are before you ask him" and of course, we know what our needs are.

In the beginning of the Bible, there was some guy... he killed his brother, and started wondering: "did someone see me?" he felt guilty and then he heard god's voice: "where is your brother?" I think this clearly indicates that god is a sort of higher self, and his voice is the conscience.

I can't imagine Jesus and all those prophets telling people to forgive themselves... they wouldn't understand anythin... people need to imagine a concrete entity- a powerful entity.

The compilation of the bible was a political move by the Roman leadership to redirect and subvert the previously decentralized movement of Christianity. Christianity was already a perversion from what Jesus taught into a cult of the supernatural. Even still, there are things to learn from it, moral lessons, and whisperings of a more profound truth albeit diluted with oceans of pure bullshit.

Lori,

I would say "see for yourself".But I’ve been there, tried it, there is nothing there.

I could witness all day long about what God has done for me and with me, about my rebirth, and about my miracle, and all day long people like you would call me a delusional liar.No not a liar, that implies a deliberate attempt to deceive. And the issue of delusion is that there is nothing independent of your claims that shows that what you claim is not a delusion, something that is overwhelmingly more credible than your claims. It seems certain that you are convinced that your claims are true, my point is that I can see no way to separate them from pure imaginative fantasy.

You would call me that without wanting to know me, or wanting to see evidence, or hear corroboration, or anything else. Not quite. I’ve read most of your posts in this forum where you attempt to explain further yet I do not see that you have made a case outside of your imagination. But that is not the primary reason that I appear so dismissive: What you suggest is really childish and naive and not worth serious consideration.

Face it, you just don't want to know. Know what? It is only you that imagine there is something to know. I have yet to see anything to indicate there is anything. It is not a matter of desire.

So don't blame it on organized religion or me or anyone else who is born again, or on God Himself. Blame? I am not the one making fantastic claims that lack credibility.

Why would you ever want to take someone's word for it anyway? That's not prudent. I don’t, that’s the role of evidence, that you cannot provide. And if I were to join your fantasy then that again would not constitute evidence.

And hence, God makes it so that you have to find out for yourself, and you have to find out from Him, There’s that Christian dishonesty again. The practical upshot is that one must abandon reason and lose oneself in an emotional fantasy quagmire.

and only because you sincerely want to know. More Christian dishonesty. In reality truth tends to assert itself on people whether they want to know or not. Your assertion really does support the delusional position.

Cris,

Been there, tried what exactly? It's law...like gravity and e=mc2....it works, and it's not negotiable. Seek and you find, knock and the door opens. And as the law states, the initiation is up to you. So do you want Him to provide you with proof of His existence or not? If He exists, do you want to know Him or not? If you do, then He will.

And I understand that what has happened to me and what it means sounds completely over the top. It is. I also swear to you that it is real and that there will be evidence provided....it's just not time yet. You know, this hasn't been easy for me, and I really don't appreciate your sentiment. "Not a liar...", but then turn around and call me a liar. People who know me know that I'm not a liar, and that I'm relatively sane, given some OCD syptoms, and despite my circumstance. So a more fantastic claim that lacks credibility may be that I, or anyone for that matter, have an imagination capable of making some shit like this up! This is serious...this is Revelation prophecy come to life. If you read Revelation ch 10, John is instructed to seal up what the seven thunders spoke, and not write it down. Then, at the end of the chapter, and after he has eaten the little scroll, he is told that he must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages, and kings. When? Now. That's my man...and that's exactly what he'll do.

Lori,

Been there, tried what exactly? Imagined that a god existed when I was a Christian.

It's law...like gravity and e=mc2....it works, and it's not negotiable. It might seem like that to you but it is still only a fantasy.

Seek and you find, knock and the door opens. Nope – didn’t work – I retained my sense of logic.

And as the law states, the initiation is up to you. Only according to you and other Christians who buy the same fantasy.

So do you want Him to provide you with proof of His existence or not? I did when I was caught in the fantasy, but when nothing happened the truth dawned on me that he does not exist so nothing could ever happen.

If He exists, do you want to know Him or not? If you do, then He will.Nothing happened and there is no reason to believe he does or could exist.

I also swear to you that it is real and that there will be evidence provided....it's just not time yet.Until then I will remain skeptical, and for sure I don’t doubt your belief, but that doesn’t make your claims any more true or believable.

People who know me know that I'm not a liar, You are not lying when you are convinced that something is true and state as you have. But the Christian fantasy is inherently dishonest and you have been caught in its trap.

This is serious...this is Revelation prophecy come to life. If you read Revelation ch 10, John is instructed to seal up what the seven thunders spoke, and not write it down. Then, at the end of the chapter, and after he has eaten the little scroll, he is told that he must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages, and kings. When? Now. That's my man...and that's exactly what he'll do. It is mythology, plain and simple and is as believable as fairies and goblins or the Lord of the Rings. It bears no relationship with reality.

Cris,


Have you ever tried to LET God decide whether you are to believe in Him or not?

Water,

Have you ever tried to LET God decide whether you are to believe in Him or not? Somewhat of a very confused and imprecise statement but I understand what you are trying to say.

But to answer the sentiment rather than the text: Sure that was a key part of my being a devout Christian back in the early 1970’s when I was a teenager.

Somewhat of a very confused and imprecise statement but I understand what you are trying to say.

But to answer the sentiment rather than the text: Sure that was a key part of my being a devout Christian back in the early 1970’s when I was a teenager.

Why did you stop letting God decide how your faith in Him is to be?
Was that way too slow, to unsatisfying for you?

I'm asking this because if a person tries to consciously believe in God, out of their own effort, he will most likely be left disappointed, or in superstition.
A person's belief (that he comes to believe) in God is God's doing, not that person's. Therefore, if a person finds himself wanting to believe in God, the best they can do is not try to believe, and let God do the work.

I must say I find it all very strange..

I've known people that have been very devout, often giving Lori style speeches, assurances and claims to knowledge. Then several years down the line they become a non-believer.

It shows beyond any doubt that through all of that and these people actually knew nothing. They hadn't "witnessed" anything. For someone to supposedly have a relationship with a being and then not believe that being exists shows the true worthlessness of speeches like Lori's.

At the end of the day these people have witnessed nothing. They're somewhat like Fox Mulder, with a giant "I want to believe" poster stuck on the wall behind them. After such a long time of wanting to believe, they actually believe they have seen god, or have a relationship with god. When reality strikes, they realise they haven't actually seen anything.

Of course it's worth asking, but I assume back in the 70's Cris sounded like some of the people on this forum - promoting his relationship with god, how it helped him yada yada and yet now people are trying to coax him back into something that he has done before and already found out is total fiction through first hand experience.

I can't say the same. I have never been religious or prone to god beliefs - generally due to the fact that there is not one solitary bit of evidence to suggest the existence of such a being. It's the same reason I don't believe in leprechauns - but to actually have been through it all, to have made all the same speeches and assurances, to have expressed the importance of faith and how all you need to do is ask etc etc, and then come out the other side knowing it was all nonsense really speaks volumes.

We even had the pleasure of seeing Southstar do it right on this forum. I used to really debate with the guy a long while back. He was really quite religious - and used all those same style arguments and stated his relationship with god and jesus and so on just like the other christians do, to just one day wake up from the nightmare and realise it was all garbage.

And so I will ask why. Why would someone who 'knows' god exists, who has a relationship with him, speaks to him or whatever end up not even believing in the beings existence?

I'm asking this because if a person tries to consciously believe in God, out of their own effort, he will most likely be left disappointed, or in superstition.
A person's belief (that he comes to believe) in God is God's doing, not that person's. Therefore, if a person finds himself wanting to believe in God, the best they can do is not try to believe, and let God do the work.

So where does free will come into the picture?

Why would someone who 'knows' god exists, who has a relationship with him, speaks to him or whatever end up not even believing in the beings existence?

People advance. People change. Similarly, there are people who are complete atheists, and suddenly, they start believing in God. It's temporary... after a while, this person might become an atheist again. In the end, we will not believe or disbelieve, we will BE "god"... we will be ourselves. Like when we were small children.

Of course, then there are those who are atheists or believers their whole life.

I must say I find it all very strange..

I've known people that have been very devout, often giving Lori style speeches, assurances and claims to knowledge. Then several years down the line they become a non-believer.

It shows beyond any doubt that through all of that and these people actually knew nothing. They hadn't "witnessed" anything. For someone to supposedly have a relationship with a being and then not believe that being exists shows the true worthlessness of speeches like Lori's.

Well thanks a lot dickhead. :confused:

This is me out here being honest about what I live through every f'ing day of my life and what I've learned from it. I'm not on some political campaign. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I don't have some ministry I want you to donate to. And I'm not spewing a bunch of rhetoric or propaganda that I got from some preacher, organization, cult or literature. I'm not trying to be "right". I don't claim to have all of the answers, and I don't even want anyone to accept my word as proof of anything. I have just as much of a right to participate in discussions out here as you do. The fact that you don't agree with or believe what I testify to does not deem it to be worthless. I am being completely honest and speaking straight from the heart and based upon my life experience, and that is not worthless.

And honestly, I would have to be completely insane to deny God and Jesus Christ after everything I've been through. There is just no way...there is just no going back after what I've experienced...I can't conceive of it....I'd have to be out of my flippin' mind. When you are born again you know it.

Who knows why people do what they do, and say what they do? It's difficult enough to analyze our own motivations and intentions. I know people get involved in organized religion and start spewing the rhetoric very readily. Doesn't mean they're born again. People say what they hear others say, or what they think they "should" say, in order to belong to a group, or adopt a particular doctrine. People go around talking shit all the time. But I'm not, so speak for yourself, biotch.

People advance. People change

Yeah, that goes without saying, but then 'advancing and changing' shouldn't really come into the picture as far as something's existence is concerned. You either know it exists or you don't. If these people do know it/he exists and have a relationship with this being, then there would never come a time where they don't believe it exists.

Well thanks a lot dickhead.

Charming. I see jesus has taught you how to be a lady.. :bugeye:

This is me out here being honest about what I live through every f'ing day of my life and what I've learned from it. I'm not on some political campaign. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I don't have some ministry I want you to donate to. And I'm not spewing a bunch of rhetoric or propaganda that I got from some preacher, organization, cult or literature.

I didn't say you were. However this is yet another speech that would join the rubbish heap if you ever became a non-believer, and yes Lori, it does happen. I was asking why, given that these people talk just like you do - making absolute statements of existence to this being, then later change tune and question its existence.

You've apparently seen/have a relationship with god, jesus and probably some other spooky invisible entities, and yet so have other people - all as adamant in their 'faith' and belief as you are, and yet a few years down the line and the being reverts back to non-existant. Why?

Let's look at this way as an example: You "know" your parents exist. You would not one day turn around and not believe they exist.. so why, if these people truly know of god and his existence, do they do that very same thing?

The fact that you don't agree with or believe what I testify to does not deem it to be worthless. I am being completely honest and speaking straight from the heart and based upon my life experience, and that is not worthless.


I can only ask you to read my post again. I think you've misread it.

People go around talking shit all the time. But I'm not, so speak for yourself, biotch.

I'm starting to think you'd be better off without jesus if your attitude is anything to go by.

I've known people that have been very devout, often giving Lori style speeches, assurances and claims to knowledge. Then several years down the line they become a non-believer.

Lori's atypical, though, at least in her experiences.


It shows beyond any doubt that through all of that and these people actually knew nothing. They hadn't "witnessed" anything. For someone to supposedly have a relationship with a being and then not believe that being exists shows the true worthlessness of speeches like Lori's.

Faith always has the requirement of action or work. Not that it is work but that when you are remiss in what you harm your faith. Then again, perhaps something in our faith wasn't solid, and, like the guy who made his house of straw, were'll better off tearing down and rebuilding. But you're point in general has some problems. What happens when nonbelievers starts believing? Does that make all their claims of nonbelief any more unworthy than that of the believer who now disbelieves?.


And so I will ask why. Why would someone who 'knows' god exists, who has a relationship with him, speaks to him or whatever end up not even believing in the beings existence?

No matter how much evidence of God, a person could conceivably choose to forget.

Hi, this is my first posting in this forum, or any forum for that matter. Already, after just a few minutes of reading this thread, I LIKE THIS FORUM!! Here are my two cents worth:

You can't prove that God exists. Nor can you prove that he doesn't. So why all the fuss? What I hate are humans who think they know anything, and then get upset with anyone else who disagrees with them. Just admit you don't know for certain, listen to other points of view, and have a nice night thinking things over. Or, get angry, and die early of a heart attack. Doesn't really matter, in my opinion. Hell, Einstein couldn't even prove his theory of relativity, nor has anyone else for that matter. I'm not sure we're really up to the task, the way we get on sometimes.

Another point of view, :o !!

But you're point in general has some problems. What happens when nonbelievers starts believing? Does that make all their claims of nonbelief any more unworthy than that of the believer who now disbelieves?.

It's vastly different. All a non believer requires is sight of that which he does not believe exists and he will, (or should), change to suit.

Let's say I'm walking through the woods and I stumble upon a leprechaun. I now know that leprechauns do exist. The problem arises when a year or so later I say leprechauns don't exist.

The difference is quite simple to spot. The one man doesn't know something exists but then finds it and now knows it does. The other man supposedly knows something exists, and then later on doesn't think it does exist - even though prior to that moment he would have stated boldly that it does exist and that he's seen it/been good friends with it.

No matter how much evidence of God, a person could conceivably choose to forget.

Or perhaps they could be like Drew Barrymore from 50 First Dates.. C'mon Okinrus - while a man might forget where he put his keys, or when his grandmothers birthday is, what is there to justify that a person would forget that something he has had a relationship with exists - whether they would choose to do so or not? (most of us try hard doing just that with ex girlfriends, all to no avail).

It's exactly why the religious person uses such words as: "faith" and "believe". They clearly show there is absolutely no knowledge of the existence of such a thing, but mere guesswork.

So honestly.. why bother in the first place?

seeing as nobody is going to agree theres only one way this arguement is going to be sorted...
mud wrestling!... no?... never mind then

No matter how much evidence of God, a person could conceivably choose to forget.

No.
I disagree on principle. We cannot willfully forget.

We cannot demand that a person does something which canot be done intentionally.

We do not and can not CHOOSE to forget, doubt, admire, respect, fall asleep, fall in love, have courage and some more other states.

These are states that are essentially side products of other processes.

These other processes may be in part intentional, but oblivion or doubt are not intentional.

We can *pretend* though to be in any of the above states, yet they aren't genuine then. I can, for example, do as if I doubt my screen name is "water", but this won't be a genuine doubt.

And so I will ask why. Why would someone who 'knows' god exists, who has a relationship with him, speaks to him or whatever end up not even believing in the beings existence?

Then they have never truly believed.

What they have believed in was a strawgod, an illusionary god born out of (unwittingly) trying to please people or born out of the desire to believe (or escape etc.).

When such people lose their faith, they only lose faith in that *illusionary* god.

This doesn't have necessarily something to do with God. It might, but I fail to see how.

So where does free will come into the picture?

If a person wills to believe in God, God can grant them faith, or prepare them to receive it.
There is no violation of free will in this.

Perhaps you can't forget things on the spot, but you can purposely avoid thinking about them. If you do that long enough, you will forget, as long as you keep avoiding thinking about them.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that someone can't willfully affect their memory to the extent we call 'forgetting'.

Perhaps you can't forget things on the spot, but you can purposely avoid thinking about them. If you do that long enough, you will forget, as long as you keep avoiding thinking about them.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that someone can't willfully affect their memory to the extent we call 'forgetting'.

If I wish away the book off my desk, I can do so by picking it up and putting it in the drawer. And I don't see it anymore.

But to wish away a thought, something that is only a mental content includes thinking about that, which makes that very thought present, ergo, it doesn't go away if I wish it away.

What usually happens is that a person hates that thought, and it is *via this hate* that the doing away with that thought works (because people usually aren't all that fond of dwelling for too long on things they hate).


"Forgetting" is only a title term of a long list of strategic actions involved in the process that results in forgetting, ie. state of oblivion of a certain thing.

Charming. I see jesus has taught you how to be a lady.. :bugeye:



I didn't say you were. However this is yet another speech that would join the rubbish heap if you ever became a non-believer, and yes Lori, it does happen. I was asking why, given that these people talk just like you do - making absolute statements of existence to this being, then later change tune and question its existence.

You've apparently seen/have a relationship with god, jesus and probably some other spooky invisible entities, and yet so have other people - all as adamant in their 'faith' and belief as you are, and yet a few years down the line and the being reverts back to non-existant. Why?

Let's look at this way as an example: You "know" your parents exist. You would not one day turn around and not believe they exist.. so why, if these people truly know of god and his existence, do they do that very same thing?



I can only ask you to read my post again. I think you've misread it.



I'm starting to think you'd be better off without jesus if your attitude is anything to go by.


My attitude? Please tell me you're kidding. You know, I was just kidding around with the name calling, I thought that was obvious, but then again, I suppose nothing is obvious to an atheist. Are you always this uptight, or only when you're talking to a Christian? There, there, I'm so sorry, you delicate little flower...

And I don't care what someone else has done. I don't care what you may speculate that I will do in the future. I am being completely honest in sharing my thoughts and experiences, AND THAT IS NEVER WORTHLESS.

Maybe you should check your own attitude Snake. Telling people that their experience, thoughts, and ideas and what they have to say about them is worthless isn't very nice. It's downright rude, insensitive, and holier than thou arrogant. What's wrong with you, have you up and joined a church or something?

My attitude? Please tell me you're kidding. You know, I was just kidding around with the name calling, I thought that was obvious, but then again, I suppose nothing is obvious to an atheist.HEY!!
I object to such generalisation! :D

As my Pa used to say (well, actually he didn't but it sounds good) - "If in doubt of the tone of your post, always use a Smilie :)"

What's wrong with you, have you up and joined a church or something?Interesting comment. My twin brother, devoutly Catholic, has managed to convince almost my entire extended family that I have been led astray and joined the Cult of the Atheist. They are all so worried for me - and some refuse to admit it (which makes me laugh - which I probably shouldn't do). Some questioned me about this "cult" - about how many times I went to "meetings" (none - compared to their once-a-week minimum), what literature they were forcing me to read (none - compared to their Bible), who the Head of my Cult was (noone - compared to their Pope), what strange beliefs they were making me accept (none - compared to their countless), what bizarre initiation ceremonies I had to go through (none - compared to their Baptism, Confirmation etc), and whether they expected me to take odd substances (none, compared to their cannabilism).
After that they've never broached the subject again. :D

HEY!!
I object to such generalisation! :D

As my Pa used to say (well, actually he didn't but it sounds good) - "If in doubt of the tone of your post, always use a Smilie :)"

Word to my mom. I suppose I do have a rather f'd up sense of humor...and speaking of which...

Interesting comment. My twin brother, devoutly Catholic, has managed to convince almost my entire extended family that I have been led astray and joined the Cult of the Atheist. They are all so worried for me - and some refuse to admit it (which makes me laugh - which I probably shouldn't do). Some questioned me about this "cult" - about how many times I went to "meetings" (none - compared to their once-a-week minimum), what literature they were forcing me to read (none - compared to their Bible), who the Head of my Cult was (noone - compared to their Pope), what strange beliefs they were making me accept (none - compared to their countless), what bizarre initiation ceremonies I had to go through (none - compared to their Baptism, Confirmation etc), and whether they expected me to take odd substances (none, compared to their cannabilism).
After that they've never broached the subject again. :D

You've got to be kidding?!?! It would be funny if it weren't so disturbing. I didn't think that Catholics lived in caves or in "hollers"...how'd they get so uneducated? Sorry about your fam, you poor thing. But don't feel too bad...everyone's fam drives them nuts in some way regarding something.

water: Why did you stop letting God decide how your faith in Him is to be? Was that way too slow, to unsatisfying for you?
*************
M*W: When one makes a decision about 'faith,' God has NOTHING to do with it! Otherwise, you are a liar about the existence of free will.
*************
water: I'm asking this because if a person tries to consciously believe in God, out of their own effort, he will most likely be left disappointed, or in superstition.
*************
M*W: And this disappointment foreruns the truth! It has nothing to do with 'superstition.' 'Superstition' implies the ratio between reality and supernatuality.
*************
water: A person's belief (that he comes to believe) in God is God's doing, not that person's. Therefore, if a person finds himself wanting to believe in God, the best they can do is not try to believe, and let God do the work.
*************
M*W: Then there is no free will. I'm not surprised.

Water,

You're not making a lot of sense. If our belief in God is only up to God, then how can Christians say that a non-Christian is going to burn in hell for eternity if they don't accept or believe in Jesus as their personal savior. By your rationale, it's God's fault or plan that some of us should burn in hell for eternity. Why would a loving God want that? Or is this God not so loving in the first place? Do you see what I am saying? Did you just make a mistake in your entry? :confused:

CT3000

My attitude? Please tell me you're kidding. You know, I was just kidding around with the name calling, I thought that was obvious, but then again, I suppose nothing is obvious to an atheist.

I'm sorry, what exactly is your problem? You use vulgur language to which I respond "charming", and now you're claiming it was all a big joke and that i'm uptight? Lol.. But honestly how can I tell? Ok admittedly I do spend quite a lot of time talking to other clearly delusional teenage girls, but I personally didn't catch on to the humour of the word "dickhead" - because it just isn't funny.

I swear humour has changed.. Back in the day "dickhead" wasn't considered one of the coolest 'jokes' around. How times have changed.

I wonder if the excuse: "it was just a joke" will pass with god. I wonder if your petty insults for no good reason whatsoever will go down well with the big cheese. Whether you'll actually get inside the golden city with the lambs and the religious nuts of time gone past, or whether you'll be stuck outside the city walls with the seriously evil people - such as fortune tellers... oh and dogs for some reason, (although I've no idea what evil dogs have done to the world).

However, while you're still alive and out of a straight jacket, kindly work on your humour. It is after all supposed to be funny.. It just don't work otherwise.

There, there, I'm so sorry, you delicate little flower...

Delicate? Not at all. I just don't see the humour in some silly 'wacko job' trollop giving me an insult all because she was incapable of reading my post correctly. But hey I forgive you. You are completely devoid of sanity after all.

And I don't care what someone else has done. I don't care what you may speculate that I will do in the future. I am being completely honest in sharing my thoughts and experiences, AND THAT IS NEVER WORTHLESS.

A) You read my post wrong

B) C'mon, everything you say is worthless. I remember the statements made so adamantly that god was giving you a rockstar and only 42 days to go etc. I remember how you said anyone who didn't believe you was gonna be shown to be wrong and so on.. and what happened? After all that and all you did was gasbag for nothing. Pages and pages of wasted kilobytes.. Then another few pages of excuses. You're a certified nut.

Maybe you should check your own attitude Snake. Telling people that their experience, thoughts, and ideas and what they have to say about them is worthless isn't very nice.

Sure, I don't have the world's greatest attitude. Of course I don't have a holy invisible head talking dood to guide me into whats right.. What's your excuse? Oh yes, it was humour..

P.S I didn't say it was worthless, read my post again, and again, and again, and again.. until the day your brain decides to turn itself on.

I'm bloody glad I'm an atheist. The only thing in common I have seen with religious folk is that upon finding god their IQ drops below that of a sea cucumber.

It's downright rude, insensitive, and holier than thou arrogant.

Nice one. You misread my post, start flinging insults, blame it on some weird version of christian humour, and then try passing the blame onto me? Sickening.

What's wrong with you, have you up and joined a church or something?

Not until I purchase a shotgun.

Medicine Woman,


M*W: When one makes a decision about 'faith,' God has NOTHING to do with it!

Well, then you neither need nor want God anyway. No wonder you end up believing He doesn't exist.


Otherwise, you are a liar about the existence of free will.
/.../
M*W: Then there is no free will. I'm not surprised.

I said:

"A person's belief (that he comes to believe) in God is God's doing, not that person's. Therefore, if a person finds himself wanting to believe in God, the best they can do is not try to believe, and let God do the work."

A person can want to believe in God, and this is in the domain of free will.
Whether the person will be granted to actually believe in God, depends on God.

To believe in God is not an act of your free will.
To want to believe in God is an act of your free will.

Cottontop3000,


You're not making a lot of sense. If our belief in God is only up to God, then how can Christians say that a non-Christian is going to burn in hell for eternity if they don't accept or believe in Jesus as their personal savior.

First of all, *Christians* do not say that. Some people who call themselves Christians may say so, but they are making deals while excluding God.
Only God can see inside a person's heart, and only God knows what a person truly believes, and God will decide upon that.


By your rationale, it's God's fault or plan that some of us should burn in hell for eternity.

No, I don't believe it is God's plan to burn a person in hell, and also make such a future clear to said person while the person is still alive.
It could be that God will grant you faith some time later in your life. But just because you don't have it now, does not mean that you are already condemned.


Why would a loving God want that? Or is this God not so loving in the first place?

God is not Oprah, this much ought to be clear.

And most of all, it is not as if heaven is our right.
Heaven is a privilege that we cannot earn. God grants it to whomever He wills.

But many people believe that they have a right to heaven, or that they can earn it. This means they are trying to take the decision about who goes to heaven away from God; they are trying to make God's decisions for Him. How presumptuous.


Do you see what I am saying? Did you just make a mistake in your entry?

I see what you're saying, and I have not made a "mistake" in my entry.

Water,

I'm only trying to make my decisions based on what I know. If God wants to help me, great. I'll listen. But he hasn't exactly been banging the door down.

On the other hand, like I've said in other threads, I was a Christian for about 30 years (Atheist now for about 5), and I seem to remember that the only contact I ever had with God was through other people and what they told me he said. I can't remember him ever actually filling me with his holy spirit. In fact, if there is one thing an atheist like me would like more than anything else, it's a little holy spirit in my stocking at Christmas. You know, something I can take out and play with.

CT3000

Water,

I'm only trying to make my decisions based on what I know. If God wants to help me, great. I'll listen. But he hasn't exactly been banging the door down.

On the other hand, like I've said in other threads, I was a Christian for about 30 years (Atheist now for about 5), and I seem to remember that the only contact I ever had with God was through other people and what they told me he said. I can't remember him ever actually filling me with his holy spirit. In fact, if there is one thing an atheist like me would like more than anything else, it's a little holy spirit in my stocking at Christmas.You know, something I can take out and play with.
*************

M*W: I have no use for the god you believe in. I don't believe in false doctrines.

Water,

The essence of some good questions.

Why did you stop letting God decide how your faith in Him is to be?It is not possible to answer the question as framed since it presumes a gods exists. What I hope you meant to ask is why did I stop trying to communicate with an alleged god that might be trying to reach and guide me? Is that OK?

The answer is based on many factors and at various levels of complexity which I will describe in a moment.

Was that way too slow, to unsatisfying for you?An overly simplistic suggestion and does not come remotely close to my case.

I'm asking this because if a person tries to consciously believe in God, out of their own effort, he will most likely be left disappointed, or in superstition.This is a very Christian-like statement that I would expect from someone who is pro-Christian and I think you said you weren’t a Christian. So I’m a little confused as to your motives here.

However, my belief in the Christian god was not a conscious effort. Throughout my entire school life from the age of four I was exposed to daily Christian worship ceremonies and religious education. I was fully conditioned to be a Christian and accepted the existence of a god without question, until of course I matured a little.

A person's belief (that he comes to believe) in God is God's doing, not that person's. That is Christian doctrine and an unsupported assertion.

Therefore, if a person finds himself wanting to believe in God, the best they can do is not try to believe, and let God do the work.Not relevant to my case.

So why did I eventually reject the Christian god concept?

1. Extensive discussions with other Christians.
2. Bible study.
3. An entire school life containing frequent religious education.
4. Private study of Christian origins.
5. Logic.
6. Credibility.
7. Einstein.
8. An understanding of cosmology.
9. An understanding of evolution.
10. An understanding of neuroscience.
11. An understanding of probabilities.
12. My genetically derived propensity to be analytical.
13. And any lingering minor doubts were finally fully dispelled by debating at sciforums.

Put that altogether and there are several major conclusions –

There is no evidence to support that gods could or might exist.
There is no evidence that a Jesus character ever existed.
There is no evidence that such things as souls could or might exist.

Hope that helps a little.
Cris

Snakelord,

Wow, what the fuck? That was scary.

Good God, don't even respond....I'm afraid of what you might say.

I'm bloody glad I'm an atheist. The only thing in common I have seen with religious folk is that upon finding god their IQ drops below that of a sea cucumber.excuse me, but I take issue with that statement, that is an insult to us sea cucumbers.
you could of said amoebas, their to thick to even know there being insulted.

excuse me, but I take issue with that statement, that is an insult to us sea cucumbers.
you could of said amoebas, their to thick to even know there being insulted.

It's not a sea cucumber or an amoeba, it's an octopus, thank you very much.

snakelord, chill out haha. cant let them get to you, its what they want so they can turn around and say "a christian would of forgiven me, we're so much better" :rolleyes:

Killslay,

Is that what I said?


Snakelord,

Wow, what the fuck? That was scary.

Good God, don't even respond....I'm afraid of what you might say.


Nope.

sorry, just trying to lighten the mood a little.
and besides, its what happens in my experience as soon as i stopped going to church the whole lot of them looked down there noses at me

Water claims:

A person can want to believe in God, and this is in the domain of free will.
Whether the person will be granted to actually believe in God, depends on God.

By far and away, one of the best arguments in favor of falsifying religion that I've read in a while.

Killslay,

Ditto.

CT3000

sorry, just trying to lighten the mood a little.
and besides, its what happens in my experience as soon as i stopped going to church the whole lot of them looked down there noses at me

Well I won't do that to you. I'll tell you don't go to church, be the church! And I'd tell the whole lot of them too. It's not about belonging to an organization or a denomination, and it's not something that you can fake. So kudos to you for being honest. :)

Well I won't do that to you. I'll tell you don't go to church, be the church! And I'd tell the whole lot of them too. It's not about belonging to an organization or a denomination, and it's not something that you can fake. So kudos to you for being honest. :)
was there not some psalm that was discovered that said that there was no reason for churches? (think the film stigmata mentions it)
of coures the catholic church quickly announced it to be blasphemous

Cottontop3000,


I'm only trying to make my decisions based on what I know. If God wants to help me, great. I'll listen. But he hasn't exactly been banging the door down.

Maybe God is doing it as we speak, you just don't recognize it as you have been conditioned into viewing only particular acts or events ot be acts of God.


On the other hand, like I've said in other threads, I was a Christian for about 30 years (Atheist now for about 5), and I seem to remember that the only contact I ever had with God was through other people and what they told me he said. I can't remember him ever actually filling me with his holy spirit. In fact, if there is one thing an atheist like me would like more than anything else, it's a little holy spirit in my stocking at Christmas. You know, something I can take out and play with.

Well, what would you like? A toy or something real and powerful?

How come you are posting here, wondering about God?


* * *


Cris,


Why did you stop letting God decide how your faith in Him is to be?

It is not possible to answer the question as framed since it presumes a gods exists.

Not at all. My position is that of leaving it all up to God, making no assumptions either of His existence, nor of His non-existence. My position is "God, if you are there, let me know in a way I can understand".


What I hope you meant to ask is why did I stop trying to communicate with an alleged god that might be trying to reach and guide me? Is that OK?

No, this is not what I meant. What you (and so many others were doing) failed because you have approached God with an idea of Him that you got from experience with other people. See below.


I'm asking this because if a person tries to consciously believe in God, out of their own effort, he will most likely be left disappointed, or in superstition.

This is a very Christian-like statement that I would expect from someone who is pro-Christian and I think you said you weren’t a Christian. So I’m a little confused as to your motives here.

I am just striving to be fair and consistent.


However, my belief in the Christian god was not a conscious effort. Throughout my entire school life from the age of four I was exposed to daily Christian worship ceremonies and religious education. I was fully conditioned to be a Christian and accepted the existence of a god without question, until of course I matured a little.

In which case, you were most likely believing in an illusionary god, formed by the conditioning you were exposed to. You likely had no idea of God though.


A person's belief (that he comes to believe) in God is God's doing, not that person's.

That is Christian doctrine and an unsupported assertion.

Why do you think this is not a valid position?
Do you think you have to be master over your belief in God?

And my stance is not in tune with certain mainstream Christian theologies. There are many people who think their faith in God is their own effort.


Therefore, if a person finds himself wanting to believe in God, the best they can do is not try to believe, and let God do the work.

Not relevant to my case.

Why is this not relevant to your case?
This may be a crucial answer for you.


So why did I eventually reject the Christian god concept?

1. Extensive discussions with other Christians.
2. Bible study.
3. An entire school life containing frequent religious education.
4. Private study of Christian origins.
5. Logic.
6. Credibility.
7. Einstein.
8. An understanding of cosmology.
9. An understanding of evolution.
10. An understanding of neuroscience.
11. An understanding of probabilities.
12. My genetically derived propensity to be analytical.
13. And any lingering minor doubts were finally fully dispelled by debating at sciforums.

Put that altogether and there are several major conclusions –

There is no evidence to support that gods could or might exist.
There is no evidence that a Jesus character ever existed.
There is no evidence that such things as souls could or might exist.

Well, all this only tells me that you thoroughly know something about the illusionary god you used to believe in. This doesn't mean that God doesn't exist though.

The way I see, you have some basics to understand that believing in God is not genuine if it has been conditioned into you by other people.

I think that now, you are slowly becoming ready to actually get to know God.

Water,

It's as good a place as any, and better than some, to "wonder" about good ole God.

CT3000

P.S. Still don't hear any God (powerful or otherwise) whispering in my ear. Also, if I wanted to put my complete faith in a God, I'd sure like to be able to see or hear him before I make the commitment nowadays. I see no reason to trust what Peter, Paul and Mary (not the group) might or might not have actually said.

Water claims:

A person can want to believe in God, and this is in the domain of free will.
Whether the person will be granted to actually believe in God, depends on God.

By far and away, one of the best arguments in favor of falsifying religion that I've read in a while.

It is not falsifying religion as a whole. It is falsifying only a certain approach to God as some religions suggest it -- that one that believing in God is all a person's own doing.

P.S. Still don't hear any God (powerful or otherwise) whispering in my ear.

Of course you don't. To be able to hear it, you must first silent down all your preconceptions. They are the noise making you unable to hear God's voice.


Also, if I wanted to put my complete faith in a God, I'd sure like to be able to see or hear him before I make the commitment nowadays.

Of course.


I see no reason to trust what Peter, Paul and Mary (not the group) might or might not have actually said.

If you believe in something because you found a reason to believe in it, then you believe in that reason, but not in said thing.
If you are looking for reasons to believe in God, you can certainly find some, but then, you will believe in those reasons, not in God. This is why such a belief in God (believing out of reasons) never works, and if it seems to, it is not geuine or lasting.

Water,

:)

Of course you don't. To be able to hear it, you must first silent down all your preconceptions. They are the noise making you unable to hear God's voice.

Yeah Cottontop, you should know god's the real quiet type.

Apparently. :)

Water,

My position is that of leaving it all up to God, making no assumptions either of His existence, nor of His non-existence.But you are not being neutral – you are phrasing everything with the presumption of existence. You have effectively adopted the Christian position.

My position is "God, if you are there, let me know in a way I can understand".Like I said I’ve been there and done that. When you get around to digging deeper, and if you are adequately analytical and perceptive, you will come to understand that the concept of god is pure fantasy and trying to talk to a fantasy or allow it to affect you is futile.

No, this is not what I meant. What you (and so many others were doing) failed because you have approached God with an idea of Him that you got from experience with other people. Read my post again, other people only formed a small part of my studies. And you seem to be defining failure as the inability to communicate with a god – but failure is a meaningless term when the god does not exist.

In which case, you were most likely believing in an illusionary god, formed by the conditioning you were exposed to. You likely had no idea of God though.Rather condescending of you, but, so? No one has yet shown that there is anything other than conditioning, self-induced or otherwise – isn’t that what you are trying to disprove?

“A person's belief (that he comes to believe) in God is God's doing, not that person's.”

………That is Christian doctrine and an unsupported assertion.”

Why do you think this is not a valid position?Because you are attempting to use it as an axiom. Prove it first, or accept that it is only a fantasy speculation.

Do you think you have to be master over your belief in God?An essential tenet of Christianity is free will to choose between God or not. If you are not the master of your belief then the freedom to choose requirement becomes nonsense.

And my stance is not in tune with certain mainstream Christian theologies. There are many people who think their faith in God is their own effort.And why do you think this particular perspective you have chosen to explore is any more valid than theirs?

Why is this not relevant to your case?
This may be a crucial answer for you.I already believed.

Well, all this only tells me that you thoroughly know something about the illusionary god you used to believe in. This doesn't mean that God doesn't exist though.It is more than adequate to realize that the Christian god is only a concept – no one has yet shown it can be or is anything else. And what other type of god is there other than illusionary? You’ll need proof to answer adequately.

The way I see, you have some basics to understand that believing in God is not genuine if it has been conditioned into you by other people.Then you’ve missed the point quite seriously, which I doubt you will understand until you’ve spent some more time searching, at least enough to overcome your current confused perspectives.

I think that now, you are slowly becoming ready to actually get to know God. Unnecessary condescending bullshit.

Unnecessary condescending bullshit.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry Water. I think I'm getting your point of view now, though. Maybe something like this: Once you let go of your perceived God (from the way you were conditioned to perceive Him as a child in church and the family environment, say), you become free, or open rather, to find the real God? Or to let Him find you? Is that close? I'm interested in your point of view and how you came to it in your life. Please let me know, either publicly or privately. You intrigue me. Thanks. :)

Dont you think that man wrote the bible to be used as a guide to act as a decent person and used god to give them a reason to belief the bible. I dont think the bible is ment to be taken so literally. THe bible is just a book with god being the main character, and hopfully you learn a thing or two.


I think it's entirely possible. That's why I try not to condemn it too much. I do think there are good things about it, like the Ten Commandments, which are generally a good guide and code to try to live by. Although, I do reject and renounce the parts relating to a God, as I feel they are pure fantasy, like you suggest, that lure people to the bible.

A lot of the ideas in the Bible are fine, and I do blelieve that "Thou shalt not kill," and "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife," etc. But to believe that these ideas are inspired by a supernatural being, and not by a fairly wise man or woman instead, is nonsense. It's when you get into the class issues, the have's and have-not's, the arrogance and superiority complexes, the racial and religious discrimination, that I have a real problem. These issues lead to nothing but hatred, violence, slavery and war. Something fairly good and decent turned into a weapon, and into justification for war.

I wonder a lot about President Bush's motivations in this regard, even while he and his appointees spout fabricated lies about weapons of mass destruction.

Bear with me on this.

In Exodus Chapter 34, verse 10 (New King James version) God is quoted as saying: "Behold, I make a covenant. Before all your people I will do marvels such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation; and all the people among whom you are shall see the work of the Lord. For it is an awesome thing that I will do with you.

verse 11: "Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite."

verse 12: "Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst."

verse 13: "But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images."

verse 14: "(for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),"

These five verses say a lot to me.

1.) This God made a covenant to drive out several groups, or nations, of people living in Mesopotamia, Syria, Palestine, Phoenicia and Asia Minor. They're still there, so I say he broke his covenant (if a "HE" made the covenant at all). (I have nothing against any of the descendants of these people. I'm just using this as an example of why I believe what I do about certain things. :) ) In reality though, this covenant sounds more to me like a human-inspired, human-motivated power grab for land and resources, in the second and third millenia B.C., cloaked as a religious crusade ordered in a sense by a "God."

2.) "He" ordered his people to "destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (for you shall worship no other God, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),". To me, this sounds exactly like a jealous or worried MAN more than a "God." Why is THE God scared and jealous? Of whom would God be jealous? If He was the One, the Alpha and the Omega, who does "He" have to be worried about? Some other God? Or a contrived God created by a man or men trying to ascend to a more powerful position in their neck of the woods. Could Moses, the recognized author of the first several books of the Bible, have been a power-hungry man intent on conquering hated enemies? Using fear and intimidation (of his God) to whip his gullible people into fighting form?

I'll leave that and all the rest of it to you to decide for yourselves. For me, though, it sounds too similar to what men and women are doing right now here in America. Using fear, intimidation and a God to prod a gullible people into war for the benefit of the elite. {Can you say Oligarchy, which Aristotle says all democracies ultimately transform into?}

Of course, I'm open to criticism, so let me have it. :rolleyes:

Since religions have had such a great impact worldwide, I think it's fair to say that most of what they say, is (or was) true, one way or the other.

But to believe that these ideas are inspired by a supernatural being, and not by a fairly wise man or woman instead, is nonsense.

I believe these ideas came from "God" through Moses and other prophets. God lives in humans: "You are the temples of God".

Why is THE God scared and jealous?


How can God seem like a human being? Imagine a volcano. It is calm the other day, then one day it becomes "angry" and kills many people by his anger. God expresses himself through this volcano. The matter expresses "itself" (God)

Explaining God with human emotions was the best way to explain him for us, when we lived 5000 years ago. We wouldn't have understood anything if God had spoken of himself as he really is. He spoke like that for Moses, then Moses translated it for us so that we could understand something about it. When people advance, they can understand more about God. This is why some religious scripts may sound weird to us today.

God (our true self) expresses himself through humans also. Humans are the only creatures who can express God fully. There's a difference between expressing ourselves and expressing our body (matter)

How can God seem like a human being? Imagine a volcano. It is calm the other day, then one day it becomes "angry" and kills many people by his anger. God expresses himself through this volcano. The matter expresses "itself" (God)


ok well i refuse to worship any diety that unleashes a torrent of white hot magma on a small village every time he has a mood swing

How can God seem like a human being? Imagine a volcano. It is calm the other day, then one day it becomes "angry" and kills many people by his anger. God expresses himself through this volcano. The matter expresses "itself" (God)

Explaining God with human emotions was the best way to explain him for us, when we lived 5000 years ago. We wouldn't have understood anything if God had spoken of himself as he really is. He spoke like that for Moses, then Moses translated it for us so that we could understand something about it. When people advance, they can understand more about God. This is why some religious scripts may sound weird to us today.

Well, I hope I advance more before I die. I can keep trying to understand, or I can basically just wait around for the tests to be graded. Sometimes I don't really care what the end result might be. Other times I kinda do. It would be nice for God to update the user's guide again though. Have we advanced very far, though, do you think? :)

ok well i refuse to worship any diety that unleashes a torrent of white hot magma on a small village every time he has a mood swing


At the same time, I have to agree with Killslay wholeheartedly.

ok well i refuse to worship any diety that unleashes a torrent of white hot magma on a small village every time he has a mood swing

Volcano erruptions are necessary. They're part of nature. Without them, the world couldn't work. There's nothing bad about them.

It would be nice for God to update the user's guide again though.

He just did, 2000 years ago. It's not be necessary to update if we learn to read the living "law" which is our heart. Originally, God wanted to write the law in our hearts, not in "stone", because the law is living, and thus constantly changing (for us)

Have we advanced very far, though, do you think?

I think we have advanced pretty much in these 6666 years, but we aeons from the truth. This is just the beginning. Humans can't advance using their own will, our evolution happens according to natural laws. Everything has already happened and the goal has been attained. What we see is just a rerun of this neverending story.

Volcano erruptions are necessary. They're part of nature. Without them, the world couldn't work. There's nothing bad about them.

no no, millions of innocent people choking on on the ashes and drowinging in there own blood is just a'ok, pompeii was like a carnival :bugeye: and there not a necessary part of nature, they exist only because of weaknesses in tectonic plates (i think)
and if we're going to use the "its gods way to keep the population in check" thing then i'm sure if he was that desperate to keep it in check he would come down and tell us all to stop rutting so much and to use protection when possible

Volcano erruptions are necessary. They're part of nature. Without them, the world couldn't work.

That pretty much contradicts everything you've ever said about your beliefs.

Yorda,

Since religions have had such a great impact worldwide, I think it's fair to say that most of what they say, is (or was) true, one way or the other.Religions have indeed had a major impact on the world and our lives and cultures, yet their primary posit that a supernatural realm exists remains totally and utterly unsupported. And likewise your assertion re truth is similarly totally invalid.

Yorda,

I think we have advanced pretty much in these 6666 years, but we aeons from the truth. This is just the beginning. Agreed, although as far as we can see modern humans have been around for about 200,000 years.

Humans can't advance using their own will, our evolution happens according to natural laws.Nonsense. Our increasing knowledge about the universe and genetics is enabling us to make changes that will help us plan and direct our own future evolutionary stages.

Everything has already happened and the goal has been attained. What we see is just a rerun of this neverending story. Have no idea what any of that is meant to mean. This is a conflict of your opening statement that we are at the beginning. In your misguided attempt to sound mystical you simply end up appearing contradictory and foolish.

Cris,


But you are not being neutral – you are phrasing everything with the presumption of existence. You have effectively adopted the Christian position.

The logical argument suffices here: It is impossible to prove a negative, so we must take into account the possibility that the phenomenon in question exists.
Hence my presumption of existence in my response to you.


Like I said I’ve been there and done that. When you get around to digging deeper, and if you are adequately analytical and perceptive, you will come to understand that the concept of god is pure fantasy and trying to talk to a fantasy or allow it to affect you is futile.

As long as you think it a fantasy, you are trapped in the vicious circle.


Read my post again, other people only formed a small part of my studies.

By "other people" I mean everything anyone said about God or anything you've read by anyone about anything.


And you seem to be defining failure as the inability to communicate with a god – but failure is a meaningless term when the god does not exist.

Vicious circularity.


In which case, you were most likely believing in an illusionary god, formed by the conditioning you were exposed to. You likely had no idea of God though.

Rather condescending of you, but, so?

Not condescending. What I have for you is compassion, but you don't see it.

If you had no idea of God (but some ideas of an illusionary god), the consequence is that you could not communicate with God.


No one has yet shown that there is anything other than conditioning, self-induced or otherwise

If you believe there is nothing else, then this is all you will see, and noone can change that. Unless you let them, on such terms as it takes to show that.


– isn’t that what you are trying to disprove?

Yes, but it is not in my power to show that to you. This will probably look like evasion to you, but it is not. Just like no description, no analysis of a kiss can convey you the true experience of a kiss, no description or analysis of God can make you experience God. This is all I can tell you.


Because you are attempting to use it as an axiom. Prove it first, or accept that it is only a fantasy speculation.

;) Axioms are not provable.


Do you think you have to be master over your belief in God?

An essential tenet of Christianity is free will to choose between God or not. If you are not the master of your belief then the freedom to choose requirement becomes nonsense.

True. But insisting on being the master over the full content of your belief in God can lead to disappointments and superstitions.
After all, Christianity says God was there first, not you. You cannot define God, God can define you.


And my stance is not in tune with certain mainstream Christian theologies. There are many people who think their faith in God is their own effort.

And why do you think this particular perspective you have chosen to explore is any more valid than theirs?

Because *my* studies say so.


Why is this not relevant to your case?
This may be a crucial answer for you.

I already believed.

I am trying to show you that an ex post re-assessment of your belief and how it came to be offers you a completely different view on the whole notion of believing.


It is more than adequate to realize that the Christian god is only a concept – no one has yet shown it can be or is anything else. And what other type of god is there other than illusionary? You’ll need proof to answer adequately.

No matter what anyone tells you -- What is not yours, will be illusionary to you. So will God, if you depend on reasons to believe in Him.


I think that now, you are slowly becoming ready to actually get to know God.

Unnecessary condescending bullshit.

How is that? ... People are reluctant to take new paths ...


* * *


Cottontop3000,


Sorry Water. I think I'm getting your point of view now, though. Maybe something like this: Once you let go of your perceived God (from the way you were conditioned to perceive Him as a child in church and the family environment, say), you become free, or open rather, to find the real God? Or to let Him find you? Is that close?

Yes, exactly!
We tend to cling on to already established perceptions (of everything, and esp. of God) because of safety, or because we are emotionally attached to them (and in that, completely discarding the power of our reason!).
In such a situation, it seems advisable, to identify what God is not -- this quest bears good fruit.


I'm interested in your point of view and how you came to it in your life. Please let me know, either publicly or privately. You intrigue me. Thanks.

Long story ... I don't really know how I came to it ... I certainly did not plan it the way it went and goes, and maybe this is why it goes so well.

I think what triggered me was that the scientific method per definition undermines itself and its findings, and as such, it is not reliable. This also means that any argument made with this method is questionable, and therefore not to be used as ultimate proof.
It was rather easy from there on.


* * *

Cottontop3000


1.) This God made a covenant to drive out several groups, or nations, of people living in Mesopotamia, Syria, Palestine, Phoenicia and Asia Minor. They're still there, so I say he broke his covenant (if a "HE" made the covenant at all). (I have nothing against any of the descendants of these people. I'm just using this as an example of why I believe what I do about certain things. ) In reality though, this covenant sounds more to me like a human-inspired, human-motivated power grab for land and resources, in the second and third millenia B.C., cloaked as a religious crusade ordered in a sense by a "God."

Life on earth, with or without God, is a matter of practical concerns.

The religious reasons and the practical survival reasons always appear to go hand in hand.


2.) "He" ordered his people to "destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (for you shall worship no other God, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),". To me, this sounds exactly like a jealous or worried MAN more than a "God." Why is THE God scared and jealous? Of whom would God be jealous? If He was the One, the Alpha and the Omega, who does "He" have to be worried about? Some other God? Or a contrived God created by a man or men trying to ascend to a more powerful position in their neck of the woods. Could Moses, the recognized author of the first several books of the Bible, have been a power-hungry man intent on conquering hated enemies? Using fear and intimidation (of his God) to whip his gullible people into fighting form?

And this is where the lost-in-translation problematic enters.
I speak for langueges and have a linguistic education. What the Bible says depends a lot on the language it is translated into.

The issue is multilayered, but relatively easy to understand for a linguist. For now, I'll say just that the Bible as it is in English, it conveys a particular Western understanding of Christianity. And as such, it is, in many ways, misleading.

Or, maybe, just like in the times of Moses, God allowed people to have brutal laws as they were too hard-hearted for anything else, God allows for the modern translations of the Bible as people are too hard-hearted to understand things that need a soft heart to be understood.

It is esp. one of the core concepts -- justice -- that has a very unfortunate rendering in English.


I warmly suggest you to read this article http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm . It should help you overcome the most harmful Western misconceptions of Christianity.

:)

Water,

As long as you think it a fantasy, you are trapped in the vicious circle.The realization that it is fantasy is the conclusion not the beginning. The realization that nothing is there is the exit from the circle that you are just beginning to enter. How long will you wait for your imaginary god to convince you he exists? How long will you continue to speculate that a god is a possibility?

Vicious circularity.So define failure then if it is not the inability to communicate with a god?

Not condescending. What I have for you is compassion, but you don't see it.What you have missed is that I have been and explored where you are and have moved past it long ago. I have no need of a beginner trying to tell me what I know so well.

If you had no idea of God (but some ideas of an illusionary god), the consequence is that you could not communicate with God.Please stop assuming I had no idea of God – you seem to be applying your own limitations to me.

If you believe there is nothing else, then this is all you will see, and noone can change that. That isn’t what I said. When you commit and nothing happens, then what?

Unless you let them, on such terms as it takes to show that.And for some reason you keep insisting that I haven’t done this. I’ve done the Christian “experience” and have moved on. It is based on myth and false hopes – I found nothing, not just from personal experience but from the wider perspective of historical and scientific studies.

Yes, but it is not in my power to show that to you. This will probably look like evasion to you, but it is not. Just like no description, no analysis of a kiss can convey you the true experience of a kiss, no description or analysis of God can make you experience God. This is all I can tell you.So go do your Christian thing and fully commit to it as I did and then come back and we’ll discuss whether it is fantasy or not. It is not sufficient to intellectualize about this, as you appear to be doing. If you want to know for sure then you must plunge in completely without any doubts – and if God exists then it will reveal itself to you if it wishes, right? Go and be a Christian for a while. It took several years out of my life in my late teens for that.

I am trying to show you that an ex post re-assessment of your belief and how it came to be offers you a completely different view on the whole notion of believing.You are talking bullshit while I am speaking from experience.

No matter what anyone tells you -- What is not yours, will be illusionary to you. So will God, if you depend on reasons to believe in Him.More bullshit. Go try it and come back when you know what you are talking about.

How is that? ... People are reluctant to take new paths ...It isn’t a new path for me – I’ve been there, done it, moved on. Christianity is nonsense.

That pretty much contradicts everything you've ever said about your beliefs.

I have no beliefs.

And likewise your assertion re truth is similarly totally invalid.

Of course it's invalid.

Agreed, although as far as we can see modern humans have been around for about 200,000 years.

The records of human civilization only go back to about 6000 years. Ancient languages never go back more than 4000 B.C.

Since the oldest dates seem to go back 3000 - 4000 B.C, it gives credibility to the flood event, it happened at that time. This was the time when the "extreme dryness" of Sahara "begun", which was the physical 'source' of the flood.

I'm not saying that humans have only existed for a few thousands of years, I think they have existed for millions of years. But I believe this generation of humans has only existed for about 7000. There has been civilization for much longer than 7000 years, but the flood destroyed most of the remains.

Long ago, I believe there were two different human races on earth at the same time, and these had children with each other and created the human race of today (a kind of "mutation") One human race was very primitive, the others were much more intelligent (and much more intelligent than us also)

It is a misunderstanding that the Earth would have been created 6000 years ago, but OUR world, this generation of humans, were "created" then.

Have no idea what any of that is meant to mean. This is a conflict of your opening statement that we are at the beginning. In your misguided attempt to sound mystical you simply end up appearing contradictory and foolish.

There is only one truth, but there are infinite ways to explain it. Evolution has no end because we can't reach the unreachable (infinity). It doesn't matter how much our knowledge increases, we can never know everything. We cannot attain the goal by evolving in time, since the goal is not somewhere in time. The goal is already attained, and has always been attained: it is the present moment.

The only way to attain the goal is to stop believing in evolution. It is impossible to evolve to "the absolute", the only solution is to accept what we are, be what we are, where we are, at the time when we are. If I deeply live and accept my life in the present moment, then I am infinite, then I am God, then I am he who does not evolve because he is absolute.

Cris,


The realization that it is fantasy is the conclusion not the beginning. The realization that nothing is there is the exit from the circle that you are just beginning to enter.

And you think the experience of Christianity is the same for everyone ...


How long will you wait for your imaginary god to convince you he exists?

Not a second. If I only wait, I have done nothing.


How long will you continue to speculate that a god is a possibility?

I don't have to speculate anything.
It took me a while, but I have come to realize that as soon as I stopped trying to believe in God, everything has become easy and relatively simple.
My experience is that the best one can do is stop trying to believe. This takes quite an effort though, as I had to consciously work through how I used to try to believe, nd why.


So define failure then if it is not the inability to communicate with a god?

It's not about failure, it's not a competition. As long as you view as a competition, you'll be disappointed.


What you have missed is that I have been and explored where you are and have moved past it long ago. I have no need of a beginner trying to tell me what I know so well.

Of course. And you have just said that the belief matters more than the person.


Please stop assuming I had no idea of God – you seem to be applying your own limitations to me.

There are two options in your case, since you say you had an idea of God:

a) You have truly believed in God and known Him, but didn't care, and this is how you let go of Him.

b) What you have actually believed in was an illusionary god, and this is why the belief hasn't lasted.


That isn’t what I said. When you commit and nothing happens, then what?

Have you committed, with your heart, soul and mind?


And for some reason you keep insisting that I haven’t done this. I’ve done the Christian “experience” and have moved on. It is based on myth and false hopes – I found nothing, not just from personal experience but from the wider perspective of historical and scientific studies.

Just because humans have rationalized God, doesn't mean that God is man-made -- it is only the existing, put into words.


So go do your Christian thing and fully commit to it as I did and then come back and we’ll discuss whether it is fantasy or not.

If you set out for failure, don't be surprised if you fail.
I shudder at how easily you put it -- fully commit! What that takes! What effort! I'd not dare to speak lightly about any commitment, as I know I could always point back and say, "But I wasn't really committed. I always had some second thoughts."


It is not sufficient to intellectualize about this, as you appear to be doing. If you want to know for sure then you must plunge in completely without any doubts – and if God exists then it will reveal itself to you if it wishes, right? Go and be a Christian for a while. It took several years out of my life in my late teens for that.

If I become a Christian with the explicit intention to "do it for a while", then I dare say that I will be disappointed, and it won't work.


I am try