View Full Version : Man Comes Back to Life After Being 'Dead' for an Hour


sandy
01-17-08, 11:32 AM
Boy, would I like to interview that guy. :eek:
A U.K. man came back from the dead after nearly drowning and having no pulse for up to an hour. Architectural technician John Deeks, was dragged from the water by two bathers after his body was spotted off of South Africa's Cape Town coast.
A doctor who was sunbathing on the beach began mouth-to-mouth resuscitation until rescue workers arrived.

"We don't know how long he was in the water but he must have been without a pulse for between 40 and 60 minutes," said Darren Zimmerman, station commander at the nearby National Sea Rescue Institute office.

Deeks, a South African native who now lives in Colliers Wood in south London, was put on a ventilator after the accident last Thursday. He was taken off the machine Saturday and was released from the hospital Wednesday night.

The 35-year-old said he does not remember what happened to him, but thinks a large wave may have dragged him into a whirlpool. "It's a miracle I survived," he told the Daily Mail. Ya think? :eek:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,323416,00.html

spidergoat
01-17-08, 11:34 AM
That sounds impossible, how does his brain still work?

ashura
01-17-08, 11:43 AM
I wonder, how did they determine the time he was without a pulse?

sandy
01-17-08, 11:55 AM
I don't know but I have read about people surviving this. The doctors around here would know better than I would. Somer super-hypothermia (stage 3?)where pulse and respiration rates drop way off but the heart keeps beating? Because of decreased cellular activity in stage 3 hypothermia, the body takes longer to undergo brain death, no? :confused:

spidergoat
01-17-08, 12:06 PM
How cold is the water off of Cape Town? I imagine it's warm, but I could be wrong.

sandy
01-17-08, 12:08 PM
10 degrees (C) on the surface. Colder below.

ashura
01-17-08, 12:11 PM
I don't know but I have read about people surviving this. The doctors around here would know better than I would. Somer super-hypothermia (stage 3?)where pulse and respiration rates drop way off but the heart keeps beating? Because of decreased cellular activity in stage 3 hypothermia, the body takes longer to undergo brain death, no? :confused:

That's pretty incredible. Do you know what the possible negative side effects are to being in such a condition?

sandy
01-17-08, 12:18 PM
I'd guess brain damage but the guy is supposedly ok.

spidergoat
01-17-08, 12:35 PM
10 degrees (C) on the surface. Colder below.

50 degrees F. That's pretty cold. Similar to the waters off Maine, it will take your breath away.

orcot
01-17-08, 12:48 PM
You know I once ripped of a grizly bear head right off, with my bare hands
http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/animals/images/primary/grizzly-bear.jpg
Do you know how I did it?

by lying offcourse nobody dies for a hour and get's back unscratched with only the help of some doctor on vacation.

Nickelodeon
01-17-08, 12:51 PM
With your bare hands.

sandy
01-17-08, 12:57 PM
I thought he was gonna say "bear" hands. :D

orcot
01-17-08, 01:12 PM
No offence but I can't take that article seriously


I thought he was gonna say "bear" hands.
I'm not that hairy

Fraggle Rocker
01-18-08, 02:04 PM
"We don't know how long he was in the water but he must have been without a pulse for between 40 and 60 minutes," said Darren Zimmerman, station commander at the nearby National Sea Rescue Institute office.People, even professional rescue workers, do not have accurate memories of time spans. When something is going terribly wrong and time is of the essence, it appears to pass very quickly. Five minutes can feel like forty and people will swear forty minutes passed.

Furthermore, a very weak pulse can be enough to keep the brain oxygenated, and a very weak pulse can go unnoticed, even by a professional rescue worker.
That sounds impossible, how does his brain still work?The story as told is indeed impossible. People will quibble over how long a brain can survive without oxygen, but an upper-bound estimate that absolutely no one will dispute is ten minutes. It's more likely closer to five, and even then you would surely lose fifty IQ points or possibly be just a vegetable with only autonomic functions. After half an hour synaptic degradation would be total and irreversible and all that would be left of you is a corpse.
I wonder, how did they determine the time he was without a pulse?Exactly. First-person accounts of emergencies are notoriously inaccurate.
I don't know but I have read about people surviving this. The doctors around here would know better than I would. Somer super-hypothermia (stage 3?)where pulse and respiration rates drop way off but the heart keeps beating? Because of decreased cellular activity in stage 3 hypothermia, the body takes longer to undergo brain death, no? :confused:One of the most common phenomena in these cases is called the "mammalian diving reflex." Mammals that have a partly-aquatic lifestyle have muscles that shut down the blood flow to their extremities when they're underwater, reserving as much oxygen as possible for the brain. Human babies--who are not yet completely evolved but retain some of the lower-animal physiology they had as fetuses--have been documented to survive something like ten minutes in ice-cold water. The reflex seems to require the water to be cold in order to be triggered in humans. So occasionally the same thing happens to an adult. A remarkable story but not miraculous. (This is yet another bit of supporting evidence for the Aquatic Ape Theory; none of the other primates have any decent adaptations for swimming, yet we have several such as buoyancy, those little vestigial webs between our fingers, and the mammalian diving reflex.)
50 degrees F. That's pretty cold. Similar to the waters off Maine, it will take your breath away.I haven't seen the temperature readings for the surviving-baby stories, but I'd guess that 50F (10C) would be low enough to kick in the reflex.

So the story becomes an exaggeration. He wasn't underwater for as long as people thought, he had a weak pulse that no one could detect without sensitive hospital equipment--especially when they didn't really expect the poor fellow to have one--and/or his heart stopped but not for very long.

Again, this is remarkable but it's no miracle.

spidergoat
01-18-08, 02:38 PM
Ah. Note that if you come back to life again, you were never really dead.

Asguard
01-18-08, 06:23 PM
Spidergoat what is dead?
clinically dead?
brain dead?

Your right if you were refering to brain death but that cant be assessed clinically
clinical death however symply means your heart has stoped and you can be revived from that

The water temp you quoted was that C or F?
I have heard of cases of people (esspecially) children being revived after 2-3 hours on in VF or VA (Ventricula, Fribulation, Asistoly, will explain what they are if asked) if the body temp is cold enough. The ambo's have a saying "your not dead until your warm and dead"

EDIT TO ADD: oh and if the doc was doing CPR the man could have lasted longer as CPR maintains oxygnation to the heart and brain until a pt can be Defibed

cosmictraveler
01-18-08, 06:27 PM
I died for about 3 minutes once because I was given medicine that I was allergic to. I was given a great blow job by the nurse their and became animated right away! :D

spidergoat
01-18-08, 06:29 PM
Spidergoat what is dead?
clinically dead?
brain dead?

Your right if you were refering to brain death but that cant be assessed clinically
clinical death however symply means your heart has stoped and you can be revived from that

The water temp you quoted was that C or F?
I have heard of cases of people (esspecially) children being revived after 2-3 hours on in VF or VA (Ventricula, Fribulation, Asistoly, will explain what they are if asked) if the body temp is cold enough. The ambo's have a saying "your not dead until your warm and dead"

EDIT TO ADD: oh and if the doc was doing CPR the man could have lasted longer as CPR maintains oxygnation to the heart and brain until a pt can be Defibed

Dead is when you cannot come back to life.

cosmictraveler
01-18-08, 06:35 PM
Dead is when you cannot come back to life.

I've been feeling that way for years! Maybe that's my problem, I'm really dead walking around with the living. :eek:

spidergoat
01-18-08, 06:35 PM
It's pretty common.

Asguard
01-18-08, 06:42 PM
classifications of death

Clinical Death
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death


"is the popular term for cessation of blood circulation and breathing.[1] It occurs when the heart stops beating in a regular rhythm, a condition called cardiac arrest. The term is also sometimes used in resuscitation research.

Stopped blood circulation has historically been difficult to reverse. The absence of blood circulation and vital functions related to blood circulation was considered to be the definition of death. In the middle of the 20th century it became possible to often reverse cardiac arrest through cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), defibrillation, epinephrine injection, and other treatments to restore normal heartbeat and circulation. Instead of death, cardiac arrest came to be called "clinical death", meaning the clinical appearance of death. Clinical death is now seen as a medical condition that precedes death rather than actually being dead."

Brain Death

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_death

Brain death is a legal definition of death that emerged in the 1960s as a response to the ability to resuscitate individuals and mechanically keep the heart and lungs working. In simple terms, brain death is the irreversible end of all brain activity

actually that artical is slightly wrong its brain STEM death but close enough

persistent vegetative state (PVS)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_vegetative_state


Legal/Ethical Definition
As opposed to brain death, PVS is not recognized as death in any legal system. This legal grey area has led to several court cases involving people in a PVS, those who believe that they should be allowed to die, and those who are equally determined that, if recovery is possible, care should continue. This ethical issue raises questions about autonomy, quality of life, appropriate use of resources, the wishes of family members, professional responsibilities, and many more.




Death is not a black and white issue

cosmictraveler
01-18-08, 06:44 PM
Death is not a black and white issue

So true, we just change ourselves from a physical energy form to a pure energy form . Some call this transition "death" where I call is a "transition".

Asguard
01-18-08, 06:49 PM
if thats your belief

I was however talking about it in a medical and legal sence

SkinWalker
01-18-08, 09:48 PM
He obviously wasn't "dead."

Asguard
01-18-08, 10:02 PM
skinWalker as i tried to point out if by dead you mean the total cesation of brain and brain stem activity then your right he wasnt dead

But if you mean clinically dead, the point where resperation stops then sure he was. People can "ride the flat line" and live to tell the tail

It depends on why they were in asistoly for starters. Babies esspecially are rather good at being resusitated because they go into arest in general from drowing ect However a 98 year old who has a massive heart atack or a guy with his head cut off, not so good for reusitation

Death by Hypothemia is a really GOOD case of where you should atempt resusitation especially when combined with drowning because the cold preserves the mussle tissues so there can be little damage

Some heart surgury can ONLY be done on pt who are clinically dead so the surgon has to stop there heart before starting the surgury

pjdude1219
01-19-08, 05:47 AM
the human brain cannot go with out oxagen for more than i think 5 mintutes so someone screwed up the time

Asguard
01-19-08, 07:08 AM
pjdude1219 Your wrong on that:

Firstly thats the average time before brain damage NOT death
Second if hypothermia sets in the brain can survive longer
Thirdly you forgot about the CPR

CPR is NOT (despite what people think) a treatment for cardiac arest. It is a method of keeping the brain and heart purfused until treatment can be applied. The treatment for arest being defib, adrenilin and atropine

Fraggle Rocker
01-19-08, 07:33 AM
Spidergoat what is dead? clinically dead? brain dead?As far as I'm concerned, "I" am my upper brain activity: consciousness, dreaming, etc. So when that is gone, "I" will be dead. As long as there is a reasonable chance that "I" am still in my body, I'll trust my loved ones to decide how long to keep trying to revive "me." But I don't want anybody keeping my body and autonomic nervous system alive when "I" am no longer in it. (E.g., the medical establishment, who often will happily keep the pulse and respiration going in a corpse so long as somebody's paying for it.)

Judging from all these posts, I think it's incontrovertible that an adult brain at room temperature that has had no oxygen supply for fifteen minutes has suffered irreversible degradation of the synapses. That makes consciousness and dreaming impossible; all the thoughts and memories have been erased.

So people who are "clinically dead" can sometimes be revived, which means they were never "dead" in the sense of irreversible synaptic degradation. Their thoughts and memories were still there and it was possible to get their brains functioning again.

Even hard-core religionists should not have a problem with my definition. If a person who appears dead can be revived, then he wasn't really dead and his "soul" had not yet gone to the "afterlife." Maybe we can't tell for sure if the person is dead yet, but their "god" knows and that's what counts. In their model of the universe, death is a one-way trip just like it is in the natural universe the rest of us inhabit. People don't come back from the "afterlife," except in cases so rare that they become part of the fabric of their religion.

It's only the woo-woo people who talk about "coming back from the dead" or "near-death experiences." If your brain has been operating under an oxygen deficit for several minutes, it might not be operating in its normal fashion. You might very well wake up with some pretty strange synaptic connections that feel just like new "memories" of astounding "experiences."

Duh!

Asguard
01-19-08, 07:53 AM
oh i see you were refering to a Philosophical rather than legal or medical definition

oh and no doctors and ESPECIALLY the goverment is not happy about keeping people on life surport past the time when its worth it (Life surport is very expencive). There are 2 exceptions to this though. The first is that it keeps organs viable for transplant, thats the simple reason. The difficult one is that medical staff want it to be the family decision to take someone off life surport and they want them to have time to say goodbye if they wish. The same thing when the ambo's decide to discontinue resusitation. First thing is that ALL of the ambo's must agree if any dissagree then it will continue untill they decide its time to stop. Once the ambo's have decided to cease intervention CPR will continue while one ambo takes the family aside and speaks to them. THEY will make the final decision. there are a few more procidures having to do with medical equiptment like the heart monitor but its beside the point
(sorry sometimes i ramble)


The point is that doctors dont keep pts on life surport when there is no hope

cosmictraveler
01-19-08, 07:58 AM
The point is that doctors dont keep pts on life surport when there is no hope

In some cases doctors cannot remove life support from any patient if their relatives don't want them removed.

Asguard
01-19-08, 08:02 AM
true (although i have herd of legal cases to enable the docs to) but i was responding to this "(E.g., the medical establishment, who often will happily keep the pulse and respiration going in a corpse so long as somebody's paying for it.)"

The medical staff would ALWAYS rather the family made that choice (as i said in my post)

visceral_instinct
01-19-08, 08:42 AM
If I end up a vegetable, I would really rather the doctors just let me die. O_O

Asguard
01-19-08, 08:45 AM
then make sure that desire is known, everyone should have a living will.