Maker of religiously critical film shot dead

everneo

11-02-04, 08:26 AM

They were trying to convey the idea that women bear the marks\scars of the faith on their bodies (not a bad attempt either).
That may be fine with western audience. Will not work for folks for whom nudity is 'unmodest'.

You are right :

I think he foolishly assumed that he was living in western europe and that sort of thing doesn't happen there.

Hey while we are at it lets get the monty python crew for "Life of Brian" and the makers of "Last temptation of Christ" etc etc.
and all those other folks who disagree with our belief systems.
It is well known that christians are not allowed to react violently, they can pray for them for forgiveness!

It is also well known that with muslims such silly symbolism would not work but would evoke a different response ranging from strong protest to killing. The purpose of conveying the message (if that was his intention) is already lost since he misfired, it hit muslims at a different but more sensitive place. He could have done that in a different manner.

path

11-02-04, 08:38 AM

That may be fine with western audience. Will not work for folks for whom nudity is 'unmodest'.

Should we be curtailing expression, setting up guidelines etc or only for certain audiences? Like a ghettoization of the public sphere.

It is well known that christians are not allowed to react violently, they can pray for them for forgiveness!
It is also well known that with muslims such silly symbolism would not work but would evoke a different response ranging from strong protest to killing. The purpose of conveying the message (if that was his intention) is already lost since he misfired, it hit muslims at a different but more sensitive place. He could have done that in a different manner.

How many people were forced to watch this? Obviously there was a message that DID hit home enough that someone felt justified in taking a human life.
Is this the future face of europe? Should there be the formation of a morality and decency watchdog organization to watchout for things like this? Who gets to decide what is offensive or non-offensive?

Hasn't europe already been through this once.

fadeaway humper

11-02-04, 08:46 AM

He could have done that in a different manner.

Swell. He could also have spent his life sucking fucking allah's balls.
What is your point, something like "don't go offending muslims, because they are particularly sensitive and are entitled to kill you as they see fit?"

In fact, is there anything that doesn't offend muslims one way or the other?

fadingCaptain

11-02-04, 08:55 AM

Sounds like a good flick. Maybe I'll give it a download.

Anyone that would kill because of a movie is a sick psycho nutbag. He should be strung up and made an example to other crazies.

Thersites

11-02-04, 09:15 AM

No it is called a very grave insult to the core of a believe of some individuals that take their religion very very seriously.

...and other peoples' lives very unseriously.

Thersites

11-02-04, 09:19 AM

Given that muslims take criticism or satire of their superstitions so seriously that it is worse than torture or death, perhaps the merciful thing to do would be to kill them all. That is the islamically logical solution, not my opinion, of course.

surenderer

11-02-04, 09:52 AM

Am I missing something? besides the mention of the man wearing a Jallaba I dont see where that article says anything about a Muslim murderer or if the film was the motivation?

Repo Man

11-02-04, 10:24 AM

Well Surender, the killer had Dutch/Moroccan nationality, was wearing the Jallaba, and Van Gogh had received death threats because of the film. Circumstantial evidence, but if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....

Hey Bruce Wayne, ISLAM SUCKS! Come and get me. You know, I think I'll get a T shirt made that says just that. I suppose you felt Salman Rushdie's death sentence was justified? Thank you for revealing the "religion of peace" as a hopelessly backwards bundle of superstitious nonsense that is fundamentally incompatible with the civilized world.

everneo

11-03-04, 01:59 AM

Should we be curtailing expression, setting up guidelines etc or only for certain audiences? Like a ghettoization of the public sphere.
Freedom of expression comes with a cost. In his case the cost was too much. ;)

How many people were forced to watch this? Obviously there was a message that DID hit home enough that someone felt justified in taking a human life.
Message could be conveyed without giving any justification for a nut to kill.
Is this the future face of europe? Should there be the formation of a morality and decency watchdog organization to watchout for things like this? Who gets to decide what is offensive or non-offensive?
If you give freedom of religion (islam) it would be at the cost of 'freedom' of such type of expression. Given that, balancing these two freedoms is the key to have a peaceful society, else you have to live with clash of civilizations.

I don't justify the killing, just trying to say the things as such.

everneo

11-03-04, 02:07 AM

Swell. He could also have spent his life sucking fucking allah's balls.
He could not bring in 'intended' change in muslim society in this way either.

What is your point, something like "don't go offending muslims, because they are particularly sensitive and are entitled to kill you as they see fit?"
Something like "don't go offending X, because they are particularly sensitive and are 'provoked' to kill you as they see fit", just to save your own ass. ;)

In fact, is there anything that doesn't offend muslims one way or the other?
You have to ask them only. :cool:

path

11-03-04, 02:14 AM

Freedom of expression comes with a cost. In his case the cost was too much. ;)

Yes this cost was paid for in blood throughout european history it is not the individual who decides what limits are put on freedoms or rights that people have. That is why we have governments and laws Does this really need to be explained to you?

Message could be conveyed without giving any justification for a nut to kill.

I seriously doubt it for him probably ANY criticism of islam would have been justification.

If you give freedom of religion (islam) it would be at the cost of 'freedom' of such type of expression. Given that, balancing these two freedoms is the key to have a peaceful society, else you have to live with clash of civilizations.

Wrong christianity, judaism etc have adjusted themselves to be able to tolerate criticism grudgingly or not. There are protests articles editorials etc that come from christians and jews to make it known when they are offended that is the way it is supposed to work. We are not talking about a theocracy here everneo.

I don't justify the killing, just trying to say the things as such.

Apoligetics are worthless. Tolerate the crime and you encourage more of the same.

The really tragic thing for muslims is that they cannot make the connection between this kind of social tyranny and the flourishing despots in their own lands.

path

11-03-04, 02:49 AM

Am I missing something? besides the mention of the man wearing a Jallaba I dont see where that article says anything about a Muslim murderer or if the film was the motivation?

from NYT international

Before fleeing, the man left a note on the body of the victim, said Eric Vermeulen, a spokesman for the Amsterdam police. The police declined to describe the contents of the message. The Dutch news media reported that it contained passages from the Koran.

here (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/03/international/europe/03dutch.html?ex=1100149200&en=c75a34110db66242&ei=5040&partner=MOREOVER)

We shall see the details of it soon I am sure. The police are probably trying to keep a lid on it to prevent the angry backlash that is sure to follow.

everneo

11-03-04, 03:35 AM

Yes this cost was paid for in blood throughout european history it is not the individual who decides what limits are put on freedoms or rights that people have. That is why we have governments and laws
Practically, Govt & laws can punish the killer, but cannot prevent his intention that has deep twitched roots in his faith, though can prevent the killing with more vigilant security. How Salman Rushdie got that? Rushdie too paid too high a price, living like a prisoner for his 'freedom of expression' that too in a free society fearing mostly foriegn mercenaries.

You said that it is not the individual who decides what limits are put on freedoms or rights that people have. This is applicable either way. Are muslims expected to live with deeply hurt sentiments under humiliation to save an invidual's freedom of expression who decides their limit by his own standards? Someone of offended muslims decided to show their limit beyond which they cannot be hurt sentimentally. Both the film maker & the killer tried to draw limits for other people.

Wrong christianity, judaism etc have adjusted themselves to be able to tolerate criticism grudgingly or not. There are protests articles editorials etc that come from christians and jews to make it known when they are offended that is the way it is supposed to work. We are not talking about a theocracy here everneo.
Thats why i mentioned islam in bracket.
Apoligetics are worthless. Tolerate the crime and you encourage more of the same.
No apologetics. I was just wondering who is nuttier, the film maker or the killer.
Both acted upon their own standards of freedom & tried to limit other poeples' freedom and right.

The really tragic thing for muslims is that they cannot make the connection between this kind of social tyranny and the flourishing despots in their own lands.
Those despots cunningly hide their interests behind the religion, would not dare to go against it. Just look at any such despot and see how bloodier his hands are that would tell the amount of resistance he faced,facing.

path

11-03-04, 03:36 AM

20,000 gather to protest murder of filmmaker

"The freedom of speech is a foundation of our society and that foundation was tampered with today," Amsterdam mayor Job Cohen said, after the deafening noise had subsided.

"Theo van Gogh picked fights with many people, myself included, but that is a right in this country," he added to cheers from the crowd.

Here (http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=32661)

Liberal VVD parliamentary party leader Jozias van Aartsen also said there was an extreme hardening of the climate in the Netherlands and it was unacceptable that a person could be killed for his beliefs.

"If we can't speak freely anymore that is terrible for democracy," he said.

path

11-03-04, 03:48 AM

Practically, Govt & laws can punish the killer, but cannot prevent his intention that has deep twitched roots in his faith, though can prevent the killing with more vigilant security. How Salman Rushdie got that? Rushdie too paid too high a price, living like a prisoner for his 'freedom of expression' that too in a free society fearing mostly foriegn mercenaries.

Again the same perpetrators commiting the crime so in the final analysis is this your argument "say something I find offensive and I am justified in killing you"? What world are you living in Everneo?

You said that it is not the individual who decides what limits are put on freedoms or rights that people have. This is applicable either way. Are muslims expected to live with deeply hurt sentiments under humiliation to save an invidual's freedom of expression who decides their limit by his own standards?

If you can't see the difference between criticism or expression and murder then we have a problem.

Someone of offended muslims decided to show their limit beyond which they cannot be hurt sentimentally. Both the film maker & the killer tried to draw limits for other people.

Wrong, not the killer nor any muslim was forced to watch this (a freedom they have) they could have answered in kind and made a film or written an article editorial or book showing islam which countered submission. You have the right to make a film or write something that someone may find offensive, you do not have the right to MURDER someone. Please tell me you can see the difference.

No apologetics. I was just wondering who is nuttier, the film maker or the killer.

If you really need to wonder about that then you need more help than I can give

Both acted upon their own standards of freedom & tried to limit other poeples' freedom and right.

:rolleyes:

Those despots cunningly hide their interests behind the religion, would not dare to go against it. Just look at any such despot and see how bloodier his hands are that would tell the amount of resistance he faced,facing.

It is just a political expression of this same mentality oppress kill or jail dissenters. Shut them up one way or another.

You are painting yourself into quite a nasty little corner here aren't you ;)

everneo

11-03-04, 04:27 AM

Again the same perpetrators commiting the crime so in the final analysis is this your argument "say something I find offensive and I am justified in killing you"? What world are you living in Everneo?
I am from that part of world where someone would find it offensive enough to kill me if i say something bad about his mother. Damn with my democratic freedom, it does not really change certain sentiments. ;)

If you can't see the difference between criticism or expression and murder then we have a problem.
Can't you see still there are people who can't see the difference between murder and criticism on their belief?

Wrong, not the killer nor any muslim was forced to watch this (a freedom they have)
Do you say it is my 'freedom' not to hear if you call me by names?!

they could have answered in kind and made a film or written an article editorial or book showing islam which countered submission.
I fully agree with you. But it is not they who killed, it is 'he'.
You have the right to make a film or write something that someone may find offensive, you do not have the right to MURDER someone. Please tell me you can see the difference.
Path, I know the difference.
Also, it depends on how 'offensive' is that 'offensive'. Some offensives are more than murder for some people. Your concept of freedom or your laws don't have any effect on their belief.

It is just a political expression of this same mentality oppress kill or jail dissenters. Shut them up one way or another.
I am more interested in the dissenters who too were muslims we are talking about, right?

You are painting yourself into quite a nasty little corner here aren't you
You are in the heat of the situation there in NL. You think about it when it is normal back there. ;)

PS : Path, you posted reply, while i was modifying this post.

path

11-03-04, 04:35 AM

I am from that part of world where someone would find it offensive enough to kill me if i say something bad about his mother. Damn with my democratic freedom, it does not really change certain sentiments. ;)

Anyone would kill you or a NUTTER would? Would he be prosecuted as a criminal?

Can't you see still there are people who can't see the difference between murder and criticism on their belief?

Which is why we have arrived at the system and resulting freedom of expression we have in the west, it was earned with blood and needs to be guarded jealously. You either live under the laws of the land or you are a criminal in the land.

Do you say it is my 'freedom' not to hear if you call me by names?!

It is your freedom not to listen or to call names back but not to kill simple as that otherwise we gradually shut down the free arena.

I fully agree with you. But it is not they who killed, it is 'he'.

Am I reading this right?

Path, I see the difference.
Also, it depends on how 'offensive' is that 'offensive'. Some offensives or more than murder for some people. Your concept of freedom or your laws don't have any effect on their belief.

No, then you do not see the difference you are abiding by vendetta not law. And you got this VERY wrong it should be "Your concept of belief or your faith don't have any effect on our LAWS". If you are arguing that vendetta is a viable option for a free society (which you seem to be) then you need to explain why.

path

11-03-04, 05:10 AM

I am more interested in the dissenters who too were muslims we are talking about, right?

Like Hirshi Ali?

You are in the heat of the situation there in NL. You think about it when it is normal back there. ;)

When is it back to normal in the NL....when people aren't killed for expressing an opinion, read the quotes from dutch politicians I posted above. No matter what the climate you can try all you like to justify murder it doesn't change the fact that it is murder and indefensible.

everneo

11-03-04, 05:15 AM

Anyone would kill you or a NUTTER would? Would he be prosecuted as a criminal?
Someone, soon if keep on doing that mistake. He might get life term or death sentence ofcourse. But i would not be alive to see my 'freedom' is honoured.!!!

Which is why we have arrived at the system and resulting freedom of expression we have in the west, it was earned with blood and needs to be guarded jealously. You either live under the laws of the land or you are a criminal in the land.
You would keep on guarding the nuts, and you would keep on prosecuting reacting nuts.

It is your freedom not to listen or to call names back but not to kill simple as that otherwise we gradually shut down the free arena.
You said mulims are not 'forced' to watch the movie & they are 'free' not to watch it, hence i replied what sort of freedom it is?

No, then you do not see the difference you are abiding by vendetta not law. If you are arguing that vendetta is a viable option for a free society (which you seem to be) then you need to explain why.
Who said 'vendetta' is a viable option? In the name of free society you will end up presecuting muslims for the sake of freeloading nutters like von gogh.

path

11-03-04, 05:22 AM

Someone, soon if keep on doing that mistake. He might get life term or death sentence ofcourse. But i would not be alive to see my 'freedom' is honoured.!!!

So is his killing you right or wrong?

You would keep on guarding the nuts, and you would keep on prosecuting reacting nuts.

So you think Van Gogh was a nut? Apparently most Dutch disagree with you, again murder is a crime making a film isn't How many times do I have to explain this for you?

You said mulims are not 'forced' to watch the movie & they are 'free' not to watch it, hence i replied what sort of freedom it is?

Freedom of choice

Who said 'vendetta' is a viable option? In the name of free society you will end up presecuting muslims.

You are defending murder in the name of honor what else do you call it. Are you also for honor killings?

everneo

11-03-04, 05:32 AM

Like Hirshi Ali?
I don't know whether Ms.Ali opposed any despot. What about who opposed tyranny of Saddam, Khadhfi, Saud &co.?

No matter what the climate you can try all you like to justify murder it doesn't change the fact that it is murder and indefensible.
I don't justify murder, path. It is indefensible. The killer would get the capital punishment. We won't regret his death. So are future killers. Do you have a pill, that would prevent them from killing & turning them into going along with future Von Goghs in a 'free democratic way'?

path

11-03-04, 05:50 AM

I don't know whether Ms.Ali opposed any despot. What about who opposed tyranny of Saddam, Khadhfi, Saud &co.?

She opposed a despot powerful enough to kill her and one she believes oppressed her for many years.

I don't justify murder, path. It is indefensible. The killer would get the capital punishment. We won't regret his death. So are future killers. Do you have a pill, that would prevent them from killing & turning them into going along with future Von Goghs in a 'free democratic way'?

You have spent the last 2 pages trying to justify a murderers actions, shall I quote you? The pill is the same which christians, jews or any other fanatics had to swallow in exchange for living in a free country and being protected from harm by it's laws. Perfect? no, but it is a damn sight better than living in a country where you can be killed for expressing your thoughts or feelings and it can only exist if we defend it.

everneo

11-03-04, 06:11 AM

So is his killing you right or wrong?
Wrong. But this great fact will not save my life.

So you think Van Gogh was a nut? Apparently most Dutch disagree with you, again murder is a crime making a film isn't How many times do I have to explain this for you?
If someone there tells now that he is going to make a film now with koranic texts written on an actress' butts he would certainly be called 'NUTS', people would expect his upward journey to be soon, the court may porbably ban his film in public interest as well as his own. :D

Freedom of choice
Great.

You are defending murder in the name of honor what else do you call it. Are you also for honor killings?
Where 'honor' comes into the picture? Put honor killers in jail, none will dare to kill for honor. That is not the case with someone who believes that his own life as well as others' is not so important when koran is deliberately offended.

Man, be practical. Or get ready to be knights templar. or Bush. :D

path

11-03-04, 06:23 AM

Wrong. But this great fact will not save my life.

Then you agree it is wrong.

If someone there tells now that he is going to make a film now with koranic texts written on an actress' butts he would certainly be called 'NUTS', people would expect his upward journey to be soon, the court may porbably ban his film in public interest as well as own. :D

Wrong, controversial perhaps but not nuts and no court that I know of will put restrictions on freedoms which are part of law. If they did this then all it would take is someone to kill a feminist and voila! feminism curtailed for the ladies own good or kill a socialist and voila! etc etc. you get the picture.

Where 'honor' comes into the picture? Put honor killers in jail, none will dare to kill for honor. That is not the case with someone who believes that his own life as well as others' is not so important when koran is deliberately offended.

What has been offended? a book? Allah? Muslims? What about them has been offended?

Man, be practical. Or get ready to be knights templar. or Bush. :D

Does your notion of practicality include surrendering your freedoms to special interest groups?
An apt quote from Ben Franklin
"He who would surrender liberty for safety deserves neither liberty nor safety."
So defending your civil liberties means you are going knights templar or Bush now? :rolleyes:

everneo

11-03-04, 06:45 AM

Wrong, controversial perhaps but not nuts and no court that I know of will put restrictions on freedoms which are part of law. If they did this then all it would take is someone to kill a feminist and voila! feminism curtailed for the ladies own good or kill a socialist and voila! etc etc. you get the picture.
I would like to know what that feminist did, who is the f**ker that killed the bitch. :D

What has been offended? a book? Allah? Muslims? What about them has been offended?
Better ask the muslims first.

Does your notion of practicality include surrendering your freedoms to special interest groups?
No. It is about knowing what is 'my' freedom.

An apt quote from Ben Franklin
"He who would surrender liberty for safety deserves neither liberty nor safety."
Another quote for you :
My freedom to swing my hands stops at my neighbour's nose.

Von tried to pick the wrong nose it seems. :D

fadeaway humper

11-03-04, 06:48 AM

You are wasting you fingertips, path. This guy is either incredibly retarded, a fascist, or probably both. Just let him offend someone and get killed for it, he obviously won't mind.

path

11-03-04, 06:54 AM

I would like to know what that feminist did, who is the f**ker that killed the bitch. :D

So again you think circumstances could justify murder?

Better ask the muslims first.

I think you can figure it out

No. It is about knowing what is 'my' freedom.

Look it up in a law book where you live and you will find out. ;)

Another quote for you :
My freedom to swing my hands stops at my neighbour's nose.

Von tried to pick the wrong nose it seems. :D

No, you just backed me up it means you cannot STRIKE your neighbor.

Some more quotes from NL for you

Others were not quite so cautious. A Dutch student declared: “This has to end, once and for all. You cannot just kill people on the street in a brutal way when you disagree with them.”

Understand?

In poor taste? Insulting? Probably that was a bit of the intention. Van Gogh, the great grandson of Vincent van Gogh’s brother (“dear Theo”), was a well-known gadfly on the Dutch scene; in the past, he had attacked Jewish and Christians with enough vehemence to elicit formal complaints. But after Submission, the death threats started to come. Van Gogh, in the eyes of many Dutch Muslims, had blasphemed Islam — an offense that brought the death penalty.

Apparently some people of faith can in fact hold themselves within the rule of law.

everneo

11-03-04, 07:06 AM

You are wasting you fingertips, path. This guy is either incredibly retarded, a fascist, or probably both. Just let him offend someone and get killed for it, he obviously won't mind.
You just fadeaway, humper. :p

fadeaway humper

11-03-04, 07:10 AM

You just fadeaway, humper. :p

Well, you may be a sad, pathetic human being, but at least you seem to have a (not particularly brilliant) sense of humour, I'll give you that.

everneo

11-03-04, 07:18 AM

Not a brilliant judgement. I am neither sad nor pathetic. I think i am human.

Tiassa

11-03-04, 07:27 AM

So he got what he deserved then?

While the question stands in general, the point to which you responded with the above has more to do with the pretense motivating the question. Legitimate questions are not served well by illegitimate framing.

You diminish Theo van Gogh's murder by treating it in such a manner.

Is that what he deserves?

fadeaway humper

11-03-04, 07:35 AM

You diminish Theo van Gogh's murder by treating it in such a manner.

Is that what he deserves?

And just how do YOU treat it, pray tell? As a natural disaster, an unfortunate accident that came out of the blue, perhaps?

path

11-03-04, 07:45 AM

While the question stands in general, the point to which you responded with the above has more to do with the pretense motivating the question. Legitimate questions are not served well by illegitimate framing.

You diminish Theo van Gogh's murder by treating it in such a manner.

Is that what he deserves?

Hey welcome to the thread see how many errors you can find it really does help deal with the issues. Did BW's comment not diminish Theo van Gogh's murder? No "that is sad BUT"..... or "That was wrong BUT".... Maybe just maybe I was a little incensed at the time. Is that OK with you T?

Do you have any relevant input or did you just want to pop in to address issues of style?

surenderer

11-03-04, 07:50 AM

fadeaway humper

11-03-04, 08:00 AM

If this film was to show your child (i dont know if you have one) in this same light (naked etc) would you want to kill the author? most people would and thats how most Muslims feel about their religion....

You can't tell the difference between an innocent child and your stupid cult, can you?

surenderer

11-03-04, 08:07 AM

You can't tell the difference between an innocent child and your stupid cult, can you?

umm.....I dont know what cult you are refering to perhaps you should stop humping yourself and respond more intelligently

path

11-03-04, 08:19 AM

Path,
I went to the bookstore yesterday and while I was in there I went to the "Social Sciences" Section and noticed that there was 47 books about Islam and/or the M.E. and 31 of them could be considered hostile (i.e. Islam Religion of terror or Prophet of Death etc....) yet i dont here anything about these authors lives being in danger nor did I (as a muslim) wanna go kill any of these authors. The fact is that anti-Islamic literature floods the market today there is no denying that.

That is just part of living in a society where you have a right to express your views, you also can be sued for liable, or boycotted. After 9/11 the number of books critical to islam skyrocketed that market was rather small prior. If it wasn't for Osama & Co(not saying he represents islam) then I doubt there would have been as much interest in islam good or bad. I haven't said that muslims kill all critics have I?

Now should these guys be killed for their views? I dont think so but when you create such a hostile enviroment you have to expect the "fringe elements" to become active.

No when we start expecting fringe elements to become active and kill their critics we have already slipped too far.

Im sorry but in my opinion most Christians dont take their religion seriously (pray on Sunday and act crazy the other 6 days) while a Muslim just isnt like that. If this film was to show your child (i dont know if you have one) in this same light (naked etc) would you want to kill the author? most people would and thats how most Muslims feel about their religion

That is your opinion as a muslim undoubtedly many christians feel similarly about muslims look at DeeCees post in the "bloodthirsty" thread
he goes out drinking with muslims. That isn't too serious is it? I will tell you how I felt about insults to god and christianity back when I was a believer. The mere idea of a mortal man insulting his creator who has his very soul in the palm of his hand was just something to laugh at. How in the world can a speck of dust insult the creator of the universe?
Your analogy doesn't work, islam is not your child, you are the child of islam and as a child you know that your almighty father should have the situation well in hand. ;)

....just look at some things that have been posted in just this thread:

Just look at what prompted their posting.

There is a thread running about 100k dead since the Iraq invasion maybe we should spend more time concentrating of those dead innocents rather than a filmaker who put his own life in knowing jeopardy :m:

Yes that is a bigger tragedy but these are seperate issues they don't excuse or exonerate eachother. Again NO his life should not have been in jeopardy.

Thanks for the reply.

PS do you think the number of books or films critical of islam is going to go up or down now? Do you think more or fewer people are going to view Submission now? Van Gogh's murder has given him more credit not less and you can't blame it on non-muslims.

surenderer

11-03-04, 08:48 AM

That is just part of living in a society where you have a right to express your views,

I agree but this right is both good and bad (In my Opinion)

After 9/11 the number of books critical to islam skyrocketed that market was rather small prior. If it wasn't for Osama & Co(not saying he represents islam) then I doubt there would have been as much interest in islam good or bad.

I agree that after 9-11 the books did skyrocket but I think there has always been interest in Islam (thus the growth in America)

I haven't said that muslims kill all critics have I?

No you havent and I appreciate that but plenty of blanket statements have been made that would make it seem as if this is a normal practice of Muslims

No when we start expecting fringe elements to become active and kill their critics we have already slipped too far.

Again I agree but only Islam seems to be defined by it's "fringe" elements....did we ever use the KKK to define Christians? or Hitler? or slave owners?

That is your opinion as a muslim undoubtedly many christians feel similarly about muslims look at DeeCees post in the "bloodthirsty" thread

I thought that was a joke but I dont know those Muslims but drinking is definatly forbidden(sp?) in Islam

I will tell you how I felt about insults to god and christianity back when I was a believer. The mere idea of a mortal man insulting his creator who has his very soul in the palm of his hand was just something to laugh at. How in the world can a speck of dust insult the creator of the universe?

EXACTLY thats what I was saying....now for me I feel as if the Creator will "lay the smack down" on the author of the crap but someone else may decide to take matters into their own hands

Your analogy doesn't work, islam is not your child, you are the child of islam and as a child you know that your almighty father should have the situation well in hand. ;)

I only use that anology to show that when you have love for something in your heart and that something is harmed or insulted then some people will strike out or react irrationally......It definatly wasnt suppose to be taken literally(sp?) :m:

Repo Man

11-03-04, 10:57 AM

Once again, for those not paying attention; if you live in the west, you must live by the values of the west. I insult Islam freely, as I do Christianity. I don't much care for Judaism either, all separate hydra heads from the same monster.

All western countries are tolerant of free expression of ideas, though to varying degrees. But pointing out the stupidity of ancient superstitions is allowed. Killing those whos ideas you find offensive is not.

Jan Ardena

11-03-04, 01:10 PM

path,

Do you feel it is tragic? Did he get what he deserved?
What kind of faith is it that cannot endure criticism?

It is most certainly tragic that this man lost his life in that way, and I fail to see how he could have deserved his fate. But why do you link 'faith' to this act, as this is clearly an act of anger.

Jan Ardena.

fadeaway humper

11-03-04, 01:44 PM

path,

It is most certainly tragic that this man lost his life in that way, and I fail to see how he could have deserved his fate. But why do you link 'faith' to this act, as this is clearly an act of anger.

Jan Ardena.

Holy Shit, what is wrong with people here?

OK, quick quiz: Why on earth was the murderer angry at Van Gogh?

a. Because he didn't like the colour of the victim's bicycle.

b. Because he felt that the victim had insulted his faith.

Now take a deep breath, count to three and choose wisely.

surenderer

11-03-04, 02:09 PM

Fadeaway wanna blame this one on Muslims also?

NORRISTOWN -- James Snook may have believed he was fulfilling a prophecy from God when he allegedly strangled his father to death and attempted to kill his mother in their Lower Providence home last November, doctors testified Monday.

http://sl.cometsystems.com/r?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pottstownmercury.com%2Fsite%2 Fnews.cfm%3Fnewsid%3D10206409%26BRD%3D1674%26PAG%3 D461%26dept_id%3D18041%26rfi%3D6&qry=god+told+me+to+kill&rnk=6&aff=inkt&v=19&origin=asearch&src_id=312&tmpl=1Ben

Bruce Wayne

11-03-04, 02:17 PM

I really hope that double negative isn't unintended.

It is. Although the murder is wrong. I don't feel any sadness for his departure.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

11-03-04, 02:18 PM

...and other peoples' lives very unseriously.

No, just less seriously. The guy messed with the wrong crowd.

:m:

fadeaway humper

11-03-04, 02:28 PM

Fadeaway wanna blame this one on Muslims also?]

What the fuck is your point? That the acolytes of another cult can be as deranged as the ones of yours? If so, agreed. You can pat yourself on the back now.

Bruce Wayne

11-03-04, 02:30 PM

Hey Bruce Wayne, ISLAM SUCKS! Come and get me. You know, I think I'll get a T shirt made that says just that. I suppose you felt Salman Rushdie's death sentence was justified? Thank you for revealing the "religion of peace" as a hopelessly backwards bundle of superstitious nonsense that is fundamentally incompatible with the civilized world.

You make it sound like this guy's death has anything to do with you opinion on religion. I am not Islam, In fact the messenger of God -peace be upon him- faced worse and yet didn't do stuff like this.

But I disliked the guy enough not to be in need of moarning (sp?) his death. Can't live with that? That's your problem.

ciao

fadeaway humper

11-03-04, 02:30 PM

It is. Although the murder is wrong. I don't feel any sadness for his departure.

:m:

Oh, that's cool. I wouldn't feel any sadness for your departure either.

Bruce Wayne

11-03-04, 02:44 PM

Yes this cost was paid for in blood throughout european history it is not the individual who decides what limits are put on freedoms or rights that people have. That is why we have governments and laws Does this really need to be explained to you?

So what has happened is that someone didn't care for the punishement the government has put and iced him. That's were you make higher punishements.

I seriously doubt it for him probably ANY criticism of islam would have been justification.

You are making it sound as if he is the first to dare and criticise Islam. While what he commited was abuse of the first degree.

Wrong christianity, judaism etc have adjusted themselves to be able to tolerate criticism grudgingly or not. There are protests articles editorials etc that come from christians and jews to make it known when they are offended that is the way it is supposed to work. We are not talking about a theocracy here everneo.

Muslims have objected in paper, on many occasions. The fact that the guy was only encouraged to further his assault on Muslims didn't help the situation. All that was needed was one guy to give you an excuse. I was deeply hurt by the guy, like many others, yet I haven't killed him.

To you this is the thing you have waited for, even wished for secretly, so you could point the finger. The hippocrite pretence. Don't you feel shame at using his death like this.

Apoligetics are worthless. Tolerate the crime and you encourage more of the same.

Yes, time for the endlosüng, eh? Ihre brauchen Liebensraum, eh mein fuhrer?

The really tragic thing for muslims is that they cannot make the connection between this kind of social tyranny and the flourishing despots in their own lands.

The only tragic thing for your likes, is that you cannot see the self-fulfilling prophecy you live.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

11-03-04, 02:44 PM

Oh, that's cool. I wouldn't feel any sadness for your departure either.

Let's just say, I won't lose sleep over it. ;)

:m:

Bruce Wayne

11-03-04, 02:50 PM

When is it back to normal in the NL....when people aren't killed for expressing an opinion, read the quotes from dutch politicians I posted above. No matter what the climate you can try all you like to justify murder it doesn't change the fact that it is murder and indefensible.

Who is trying to? Bottom line, you have two problems. Not the Murderer, but all Muslims should be found guilty, according to you. And you want to make a point of the antipathy towards van Gogh. Well, only one guy killed him. And two, I don't like the guy and I don't apologize for it.

:m:

Jan Ardena

11-03-04, 02:55 PM

fadeaway humper,

b. Because he felt that the victim had insulted his faith

So if he had killed him because he insulted his wife, would his wife be at fault?

Jan Ardena.

Bruce Wayne

11-03-04, 02:58 PM

What has been offended? a book? Allah? Muslims? What about them has been offended?

All of the above. If you would had thought about it you would understand that it is not an attack on the shell of a person, as would the attack on his mother or his childeren be, the attack is upon that which is tied to the very purpose of the existence of an individual. That hurts.

Off course, If the killer was wise, her would have seen it in a wider perspective than his person. Nontheless, van Gogh, was dancing with devil. And all he had to back him up, was his arrogance (his own words.)

:m:

Bruce Wayne

11-03-04, 02:59 PM

fadeaway humper,

So if he had killed him because he insulted his wife, would his wife be at fault?

Jan Ardena.

Dafeaway, had a signature saying "Dhimmi power". He's blaming Islam without there being a delict. Let alone if a crime did happen.

:m:

fadeaway humper

11-03-04, 03:08 PM

fadeaway humper,

So if he had killed him because he insulted his wife, would his wife be at fault?

Jan Ardena.

Gee, I don't know. Did his wife urge him to kill the guy?

Bruce Wayne

11-03-04, 03:10 PM

That is your opinion as a muslim undoubtedly many christians feel similarly about muslims look at DeeCees post in the "bloodthirsty" thread
he goes out drinking with muslims. That isn't too serious is it? I will tell you how I felt about insults to god and christianity back when I was a believer. The mere idea of a mortal man insulting his creator who has his very soul in the palm of his hand was just something to laugh at. How in the world can a speck of dust insult the creator of the universe?
Your analogy doesn't work, islam is not your child, you are the child of islam and as a child you know that your almighty father should have the situation well in hand. ;)

This point of you is worth an entire thread. (I wish you said this elsewhere.) You tell us this analogy (as if it is relevant) and still you complain about there being a hell. The speck of dust, gets to be as arrogant as it wants until it goes back to reality and there it shall find the "Creator of the universe" waiting. You ger the pic...;)

PS do you think the number of books or films critical of islam is going to go up or down now? Do you think more or fewer people are going to view Submission now? Van Gogh's murder has given him more credit not less and you can't blame it on non-muslims.

That is one of the reasons why I opposed the notion of killing him. I knew that he would get promoted from joker to joker of jokers.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

11-03-04, 03:13 PM

I insult Islam freely, as I do Christianity...

I really don't care that you exist let alone what you do.

:m:

fadeaway humper

11-03-04, 03:20 PM

I really don't care that you exist let alone what you do.

:m:

That's the spirit! Now if you only could convince your muslim brethren to do exactly the same, everything would be just peachy.

surenderer

11-03-04, 03:20 PM

[QUOTE=fadeaway humper]Gee, I don't know

The smartest and most intelligent thing I have seen you post in this thread yet

Repo Man

11-03-04, 03:28 PM

Bruce Wayne, thank you for reinforcing my dislike of the French. I think P.J. O'Rourke said it best in his old National Lampoon piece Foreigners Around the World. (http://www.nationallampoon.com/flashbacks/foreigners/foreigners8.html)

And welcome to my ignore list.

Bruce Wayne

11-03-04, 03:29 PM

That's the spirit! Now if you only could convince your muslim brethren to do exactly the same, everything would be just peachy.

I would do that if I cared about your existence... Oh wait.

:m:

Michael

11-03-04, 06:22 PM

No it is called a very grave insult to the core of a believe of some individuals that take their religion very very seriously.

:m: I suppose then by what YOU seem to suggest that, if a person sees Jesus as the SON OF GOD and another (say YOU) say otherwise - well well that is called a very grave insult to the core of a believe of some individuals that take their religion very very seriously. and so what?

They get shot?

typical

slotty

11-03-04, 08:15 PM

Nothing these islamic nutters does surprises me anymore. Its not the first act of barbarism done in the name of there religion, and depressingly we all know it won't be the last. Murdered for a bit of art. Madness. The sooner we all become enlightend and get rid of all this religious bollox the better. Eradicating islam would be a good start.

Medicine*Woman

11-03-04, 08:43 PM

slotty: Nothing these islamic nutters does surprises me anymore. Its not the first act of barbarism done in the name of there religion, and depressingly we all know it won't be the last. Murdered for a bit of art. Madness. The sooner we all become enlightend and get rid of all this religious bollox the better. Eradicating islam would be a good start.
**************
M*W: Barbarism is relative. Enlightenment is a good thing. Islam is not the problem -- ignorance is.

slotty

11-03-04, 08:50 PM

Medicine*Woman

11-03-04, 09:05 PM

slotty: true. but this sort of crap makes me so angry. such a waste. the poor sod whos dead, and the silly idiot who has just wasted his life by looking forward to life locked up. :mad:
*************
M*W: Have you no forgiveness???? Life locked up is a different thing altogether. Are you a believe in waste, or are you a believer in humanity?

Persol

11-03-04, 09:11 PM

I'm sorry... but your religion is stupid if you feel the need to shoot anyone who questions it. There isn't much point there besides someone trying to feel powerful.

Fortuna

11-03-04, 10:11 PM

OK, I think we all can agree that the murder of Van Gogh was wrong, both morally and legally. The fact is that he died because another in his country did not respect the freedom of artistic expression granted in hos country.

But, otoh, let us not forget that it was an individual who perpetrated this crime. An individual whom, represents a fringe element of Islam. Remember, other Islams simply wrote editorials condeming his work, and went no further than that. Sadly, one individual went far further

But. here is what is I am getting from this thread. In the world of today, the "fringe elements" of Islam are more numerous than those of say, Christianity. But, Christianity and Judaism at this point in time have had time to adjust to free societies. It wasn't long ago that the KKK was called a fringe element of Evangelical Christianity.

Most muslim countries are not democratic free societies, yet many muslims do successfully live in free societies (USA, France, Netherlands, etc).

I have to wonder what we should make of the presence of the fringe element of Islam ? Why does their fringe seem to be larger, or more vocal, than that of other religions ? What should this indicate to us ? I would suggest that any muslim must be more moderate in order to live in a free society.

In some ways, I attribute this to the relative youth of Islam , as opposed to Christianity or Judaism (i.e. 6-7 centuries younger than Christianity. They have had no "protestant reform movement", as Christianity did several centuries ago. Otoh, is it an issue of their current world situation ? Many muslims live in countries that are virtual theocracies, is this the case ?

I must say something here though. Years ago, when I lived in France, many muslims lived there, and I remeber very few of the muslim women wearing traditional garb.

How do individual Muslims see this trend towards moderation, and away from tradition ? Does the "average" muslim want to see Islam in total become more moderate ? (they seem to, at least in France)

slotty

11-03-04, 10:34 PM

*************
M*W: Have you no forgiveness???? Life locked up is a different thing altogether. Are you a believe in waste, or are you a believer in humanity?

Forgive who? the guy who shot him? no. I could never forgive anybody who did that sort of thing. We don't have the death penalty here in the UK (well apart from treason) and neither does the netherlands, the ultimate sanction in law is therefore life imprisonment, so when i mean what a waste , i mean that the murderer is going to spend the vast majority of his life behind bars over a short little film that nobody would of even bothered about. The worst thing is that somebody brainwashed this guy that the filmaker was so disrespectful of islam that he deserved to die. I'm sorry, but ALL these orginised religions have got a lot to answer for, the crap they cause in the world is disgusting. :m:

path

11-04-04, 02:14 AM

No, just less seriously. The guy messed with the wrong crowd.
:m:

So all life isn't equal ;)
What exactly does "the wrong crowd" mean here Bruce?

path

11-04-04, 02:44 AM

So what has happened is that someone didn't care for the punishement the government has put and iced him. That's were you make higher punishements.

The word you are looking for Bruce is Commits a CRIME. You see funny thing but even in France murder is a crime

You are making it sound as if he is the first to dare and criticise Islam. While what he commited was abuse of the first degree.

No I was originally just looking for comment and reaction regarding his murder. You have this recurrent problem with understanding Bruce, is it a language barrier? Show me WHERE I make it sound like he was the first. I know many people have been murdered or at least threatened in the past (including the shooting of editor of the company that published "the Satanic verses" in Norway). I hadn't been planning on making a list of such crimes as a general indictment against islam here and still don't plan to, if that had been my intention I would have framed this thread differently and started on page 1.

Muslims have objected in paper, on many occasions. The fact that the guy was only encouraged to further his assault on Muslims didn't help the situation. All that was needed was one guy to give you an excuse. I was deeply hurt by the guy, like many others, yet I haven't killed him.

You already made your feelings plain
I would not have had him killed, if only because the ammo it will give **********-troopers like path here.
I still find it very rich that you make a comment like that and call me a ********** trooper at the end of it :D

To you this is the thing you have waited for, even wished for secretly, so you could point the finger. The hippocrite pretence. Don't you feel shame at using his death like this.

More full of shit you couldn't be, and despite your vitriol most of this thread was simply everneo and myself discussing the morality of THIS occurence. Grow up Bruce.

Yes, time for the endlosüng, eh? Ihre brauchen Liebensraum, eh mein fuhrer?

OK from this I gather that you believe that any punishment of Van Goghs murderer is equivilent to an act of nazi aggression. :rolleyes:

The only tragic thing for your likes, is that you cannot see the self-fulfilling prophecy you live.

You are losing it Bruce

path

11-04-04, 02:49 AM

Who is trying to? Bottom line, you have two problems. Not the Murderer, but all Muslims should be found guilty, according to you. And you want to make a point of the antipathy towards van Gogh. Well, only one guy killed him. And two, I don't like the guy and I don't apologize for it.

I am getting really tired of spelling things out for you. SHOW ME ONE PLACE WHERE I SAID ALL MUSLIMS ARE GUILTY. Is that large enough for you to read? You have a precooked fantasy that is all you can see.

path

11-04-04, 03:01 AM

All of the above. If you would had thought about it you would understand that it is not an attack on the shell of a person, as would the attack on his mother or his childeren be, the attack is upon that which is tied to the very purpose of the existence of an individual. That hurts.

See I don't buy this for a second unless your faith is very fragile. A few random questions.
1, Is a human being, mother father child or whatever mortal, flesh and blood?
2, Is a human being a weak, fragile thing?
3, Is allah mortal, flesh and blood?
4, Is allah a weak, fragile thing?
5, Is faith in islam a thing of flesh and blood?
6, Is faith in islam a weak fragile thing?

Off course, If the killer was wise, her would have seen it in a wider perspective than his person.

Can you clarify this I am having trouble making sense out of it.

path

11-04-04, 03:20 AM

This point of you is worth an entire thread. (I wish you said this elsewhere.) You tell us this analogy (as if it is relevant) and still you complain about there being a hell. The speck of dust, gets to be as arrogant as it wants until it goes back to reality and there it shall find the "Creator of the universe" waiting. You ger the pic...

I can freely use the analogy from my past because that is no longer relevant for me in the real world. The only thing that hasn't changed is that I am still a speck of dust, god or no god. I doubt you get the pic.

That is one of the reasons why I opposed the notion of killing him. I knew that he would get promoted from joker to joker of jokers.

See that in itself isn't good enough you should be opposed to it because it is morally wrong, because life is sacred. But then that is what I perceive as an ideal perspective and I am just a ********** trooper :D

Bruce Wayne

11-05-04, 03:14 AM

I suppose then by what YOU seem to suggest that, if a person sees Jesus as the SON OF GOD and another (say YOU) say otherwise - well well that is called a very grave insult to the core of a believe of some individuals that take their religion very very seriously. and so what?

They get shot?

typical

No that is something totaly different.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

11-05-04, 03:16 AM

I'm sorry... but your religion is stupid if you feel the need to shoot anyone who questions it. There isn't much point there besides someone trying to feel powerful.

I hope you mean the one that shot. And not all that share the religion with him.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

11-05-04, 03:26 AM

So all life isn't equal ;)

And where did you get that from? not from what I posted. Are the voices still speaking to you, path?

What exactly does "the wrong crowd" mean here Bruce?

People that won't tolerate what he did. (the killer)

:m:

path

11-05-04, 03:33 AM

And where did you get that from? not from what I posted. Are the voices still speaking to you, path?

A refresher for you, this is what you said about how you feel Van Gogh's life is regarded .

Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne
No, just less seriously.

The voice is you Bruce.

People that won't tolerate what he did. (the killer)

:m:

Which crowd might that be? You originally said CROWD not KILLER

Michael

11-05-04, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Michael
I suppose then by what YOU seem to suggest that, if a person sees Jesus as the SON OF GOD and another (say YOU) say otherwise - well well that is called a very grave insult to the core of a believe of some individuals that take their religion very very seriously. and so what?

They get shot?

typical ”

Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne
No that is something totally different.

Oh really Bruce?

Totally different?

Totally?

No resemblance in any way shape or form huh?

That’s funny, because I see a resemblance. It goes like this. If one person makes a statement (be it verbally or otherwise, ie: pictorially) and this is taken as a “grave insult” by another. Well that other person has a valid reason for killing the first. I mean, he was offended after all.

Is that what you're saying?

A) Person makes a movie and it shows Mohammed
B) Another person is so offended – because showing Mohammed is a no no so he kills the actor and the producer and the screen writer and the f*cking cast.
C) Bruce Wayne seems to think that’s a valid reason for killing.

A) A person says Jesus is not the son of god.
B) Another person is so offended – because bla bla Bla so he kills him
C) Bruce Wayne seems to think that’s a valid reason for killing.

You see the reasoning is exactly the same.

So why don’t you do humanity a favor and list what it is we, the citizens in our own f*cking country, are not to do so as not to get killed.

Can you do that for us? I mean you seem to know what is and is not acceptable behaviour in this regards.

And, Bruce, I haven’t seen in any of your posts you condemning the man as a vicious killer. Instead you come up with every excuse under the god damn sun on why this jerk-off got his panties in a knot and killed an innocent man.

Yes, Bruce it is OK for one person to represent Islam by painting it one a woman’s body. A person can represent Islam by pinching a big brown loaf on the Good Book. When you choose to live in a free society (as this ass wipe did) then you live within those freedoms. And if you don’t like it - get the hell out of the f*cking country and go live in a society that values killing artists for writing the Qur’an on a woman’s body.

It’s as simple as that.

And lastly, this is exactly what pisses everyone off.

For once I’d like to see some Muslims get off there fat arses and condemn these sociopaths in the most sever religious terms. Instead I hear crap like – Well the Russians are killing people so that’s why they had to kill all those little children, Oh, they’re not real Muslims anyway – we don’t do that, Oh the guy wrote some of the Qur’an on a woman’s body – well that’s a grave insult so the guy got iced.

pfff pure bullshit

everneo

11-05-04, 07:23 AM

Instead you come up with every excuse under the god damn sun on why this jerk-off got his panties in a knot and killed an innocent man.
That is simple, Michael. You find the film maker innocent, Bruce does not find the film maker innocent. Why do you want him to lie?.

When you choose to live in a free society (as this ass wipe did) then you live within those freedoms. And if you don’t like it - get the hell out of the f*cking country and go live in a society that values killing artists for writing the Qur’an on a woman’s body.
Before allowing any muslims to live there, they should have made it clear something like this : "The freedom here also means anyone can display koran on anything he finds available including a rat's arse. Our freedom is more important than any of your sentiments, if you can live with this, dropping all your stupid faith that could stir you to react against our freedom in any extreme manner then come in else get out." ;)

surenderer

11-05-04, 07:46 AM

”

Oh really Bruce?

Totally different?

Totally?

No resemblance in any way shape or form huh?

That’s funny, because I see a resemblance. It goes like this. If one person makes a statement (be it verbally or otherwise, ie: pictorially) and this is taken as a “grave insult” by another. Well that other person has a valid reason for killing the first. I mean, he was offended after all.

Is that what you're saying?

A) Person makes a movie and it shows Mohammed
B) Another person is so offended – because showing Mohammed is a no no so he kills the actor and the producer and the screen writer and the f*cking cast.
C) Bruce Wayne seems to think that’s a valid reason for killing.

A) A person says Jesus is not the son of god.
B) Another person is so offended – because bla bla Bla so he kills him
C) Bruce Wayne seems to think that’s a valid reason for killing.

You see the reasoning is exactly the same.

So why don’t you do humanity a favor and list what it is we, the citizens in our own f*cking country, are not to do so as not to get killed.

Can you do that for us? I mean you seem to know what is and is not acceptable behaviour in this regards.

And, Bruce, I haven’t seen in any of your posts you condemning the man as a vicious killer. Instead you come up with every excuse under the god damn sun on why this jerk-off got his panties in a knot and killed an innocent man.

Yes, Bruce it is OK for one person to represent Islam by painting it one a woman’s body. A person can represent Islam by pinching a big brown loaf on the Good Book. When you choose to live in a free society (as this ass wipe did) then you live within those freedoms. And if you don’t like it - get the hell out of the f*cking country and go live in a society that values killing artists for writing the Qur’an on a woman’s body.

It’s as simple as that.

And lastly, this is exactly what pisses everyone off.

For once I’d like to see some Muslims get off there fat arses and condemn these sociopaths in the most sever religious terms. Instead I hear crap like – Well the Russians are killing people so that’s why they had to kill all those little children, Oh, they’re not real Muslims anyway – we don’t do that, Oh the guy wrote some of the Qur’an on a woman’s body – well that’s a grave insult so the guy got iced.

pfff pure bullshit

Are you finished ranting and raving?....Now you say:

And, Bruce, I haven’t seen in any of your posts you condemning the man as a vicious killer.

But Bruce has already said that:

It is. Although the murder is wrong. I don't feel any sadness for his departure .

You see that's typical Western behavior towards Muslims......read only what you want and only highlight the controversial things that a Muslim says

So why don’t you do humanity a favor and list what it is we, the citizens in our own f*cking country, are not to do so as not to get killed.

You should be able to do what you want only realize that certain behavior has certain risks attached to it..... A woman should be able to wear what she wants in a "free" society right? But if she walks around half-naked day after day then does her chance of being raped increase or decrease? Of course it's not her fault but certain behavior draws certain elements from society

For once I’d like to see some Muslims get off there fat arses and condemn these sociopaths in the most sever religious terms.

Muslims did just that(check my posts)....but their punishments will come from the Creator you should try objective reading and stop looking for things that support your views

Instead I hear crap like – Well the Russians are killing people so that’s why they had to kill all those little children

Again not supported by Muslims although Russians had no problems killing Chechnian(sp) children for many years....are you outraged at this also? I must have missed your posts on it ;)

Oh, they’re not real Muslims anyway – we don’t do that,

So thats phony when we say that? What should we say when someone who says they are a muslim commits acts that are totally against what the Koran says?

path

11-05-04, 05:11 PM

But Bruce has already said that:

The only way Bruce could have made a weaker condemnation would have been if he had been asleep ;) . Can that even be considered a condemnation? seriously a mild show of disapproval but if it is the truth then we should at least be thankful for that.

You see that's typical Western behavior towards Muslims......read only what you want and only highlight the controversial things that a Muslim says

Don't go the victimhood road, try and read and understand the comments he made from a western perspective and see why people are upset or angry.

You should be able to do what you want only realize that certain behavior has certain risks attached to it..... A woman should be able to wear what she wants in a "free" society right? But if she walks around half-naked day after day then does her chance of being raped increase or decrease? Of course it's not her fault but certain behavior draws certain elements from society

Expressing an opinion should not lead someone in a free society to fear for their lives no matter how you want to phrase it. If it does the society ceases to be free. Once you cross that line who is to say what the next thing is that can be considered an offense worth death.
Regarding the rape analogy it just doesn't wash rape is about power more than it is about sex research it and see. This is a muslim perspective the perspective or one of people who aren't accustomed to seeing women dressed however they wish. It is another topic one on which I have many relevant personal experiences to relate. We can get into it here if you wish but I think that would be better left to another thread.

Muslims did just that(check my posts)....but their punishments will come from the Creator you should try objective reading and stop looking for things that support your views

As much as Micheal and I would like to believe that you were all muslims it just doesn't seem to relate to reality.

Again not supported by Muslims although Russians had no problems killing Chechnian(sp) children for many years....are you outraged at this also? I must have missed your posts on it ;)

People in the west have been derying the war in Chechnya for years now even the Bush regime has said negative things about it. To be fair you should start a thread to give him the chance to condenm it I am sure he would.

So thats phony when we say that? What should we say when someone who says they are a muslim commits acts that are totally against what the Koran says?

We have been over this before it can be found in the quran and sunnah it just depends on how you interpret it. I think we prefer your interpretation ;)

Michael

11-05-04, 10:10 PM

That is simple, Michael. You find the film maker innocent; Bruce does not find the film maker innocent. Why do you want him to lie? Lie about what? What is it you think Bruce is trying to say, such that - condemning the killer would be construed as a lie?

I don’t think Bruce is lying, but your sentence suggests that you feel Bruce supports the killer’s actions.

Well that’s how I read the posts as well, so I think it’s crap – which was what my rant was about.

Before allowing any muslims to live there, they should have made it clear something like this : "The freedom here also means anyone can . . . .It is made clear, if one takes the time to read the constitutions of the countries one migrates to.
The onus is on the immigrant to live according to the society’s rules and regulations – not the other way around.

Are you finished ranting and raving? maybe :)

You see that's typical Western behavior towards Muslims......read only what you want and only highlight the controversial things that a Muslim says
Come off it, if a White Supremist killed an African for having a white partner, because that was a “great insult to his religious-belief”, then you’d be just as outraged – or I hope you’d be – if then someone went blathering on about how blacks should know that when they go with a white person – well well they’re taking a chance and if they get killed – well they should of known better, so really maybe a bit of it’s their fault for going with a white.

F*ck That – I refuse to accept it.

What Bruce should have said is, yes this guy was a nutty sociopath and what he did was wrong, I hope he gets the most sever punishment possible. Because this sort of thing has happened in other religious groups, ie; Christian, Jewish, Hindi etc , , , maybe we should all look at what it is in our Religious beliefs and Books that cause people to think like this and, for the betterment of society, remove it.

Let me ask, as a Muslim, do you know if the Qur’an says ANYTHING in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM that is derogatory towards another culture, people or religion? Because if it does then you can bet it wasn’t by any God and should be removed.

You should be able to do what you want only realize that certain behavior has certain risks attached to it..... A woman should be able to wear what she wants in a "free" society right? But if she walks around half-naked day after day then does her chance of being raped increase or decrease? Of course it's not her fault but certain behavior draws certain elements from society And we as a society condem the perpetrators, we don’t go off saying the women was asking for it and so maybe it’s OK.

And if that does happen, those judges need to be removed as soon as possible.

Think about like this; let’s say there was some group of guys with fetish for girls that were mostly covered. They then went on to rape many mostly covered girls – lets say that happened to all be Good Muslim girls, wouldn’t you get a little bit pissed off if someone was on here blathering about – well maybe they shouldn’t have been covering themselves and sticking out so much bla bla bla . . .

Its ridiculous.

The guy was an artist and so what if he made a movie that peeved some people, tough live with it. I’m sure God’s a big boy and can take care of thing’s itself.

Muslims did just that(check my posts)....but their punishments will come from the Creator you should try objective reading and stop looking for things that support your views It appeared by everneo’s comment about lying that they felt similarly.

But I see your point, and I understand where you’re coming from. But I certainly didn’t feel that Bruce was at all condemning the Killer – if anything he seems to be excusing the sick-o’s actions by blaming the artist.

Again not supported by Muslims although Russians had no problems killing Chechnian(sp) children for many years....are you outraged at this also? I must have missed your posts on it I have never heard anyone at anytime say anything supportive towards the Russians. As a matter of fact yes they suck and if there were a hell some of them will rot in it along with some Americans’ in Iraq.

So thats phony when we say that? What should we say when someone who says they are a muslim commits acts that are totally against what the Koran says?OK then you tell me

1) Was this guy a Muslim?
2) Were the Bali Bombers?
3) Were the Chechen Rebels? Any of them Muslims?
4) What about the Ayatollah in Iran? Is he Muslim?
5) What about the Iranian Judge that sentenced the 16 year Persian girl to death for adultery – we he a Muslim?
6) What about Arafat?
7) How about Saddam?
8) What about the Royalty in SA are they Muslim?
9) What about the Sunni are they Muslim?
10) Are Shite Muslim?
11) Is Sufi a Muslim?
12) Are Druze Muslims?

Thanks I’m curious to hear who are and are not Muslims.

Anyway, that’s exactly the reason why a book can not be perfect, anyone can find something to mean anything and you know what - they do.

Dr Lou Natic

11-05-04, 10:54 PM

Yeah seriously, I can't condemn the killing of anyone, but I can condemn people who do condemn killing and yet defend these actions.
There truely is a crazy pro-muslim bias among liberal circles which can at times reveal itself to be beyond insane.

It absolutely does not matter how offended this muslim was by the movie, people can be offended by any ridiculous thing, someone could be deeply offended by a gay relationship and kill both partners.
Would a defense for that person's actions be "well you have to understand that to him seeing a gay couple is very offensive"?
I know you guys defending this muslim generally don't think like that, you will only manipulate your thought processes into such elaborate positions in order to avoid finding fault with a muslim.
Let's face it, there isn't a single other type of person you would even try to defend for such actions.

Bells

11-05-04, 11:12 PM

No one should ever be killed for their beliefs. And no one should ever be killed because their actions offend some members of society. It was a movie. If it offends you or the topic is offensive to you, don't go and see it. Boycott it. I'm sure that depriving the director of the money would have sent a better message than killing him.

And I have to agree with Lou, you can't condemn the killing and then defend it at the same time. You can't say that he shouldn't have been killed and then say you're glad he was killed. There's no middle ground.

surenderer

11-06-04, 08:21 AM

You can't say that he shouldn't have been killed and then say you're glad he was killed. There's no middle ground.[/QUOTE]

I sure hope that wasnt directed at me because I have said nothing even close to that.....As a matter or fact I dont think Bruce did either as far as I know he said that the Murder was wrong but he wouldnt lose any sllep over the man being dead.....I see a big difference

surenderer

11-06-04, 09:10 AM

.

OK then you tell me

1) Was this guy a Muslim?
2) Were the Bali Bombers?
3) Were the Chechen Rebels? Any of them Muslims?
4) What about the Ayatollah in Iran? Is he Muslim?
5) What about the Iranian Judge that sentenced the 16 year Persian girl to death for adultery – we he a Muslim?
6) What about Arafat?
7) How about Saddam?
8) What about the Royalty in SA are they Muslim?
9) What about the Sunni are they Muslim?
10) Are Shite Muslim?
11) Is Sufi a Muslim?
12) Are Druze Muslims?

Thanks I’m curious to hear who are and are not Muslims.Anyway, that’s exactly the reason why a book can not be perfect, anyone can find something to mean anything and you know what - they do.[/QUOTE]

1) dont know it seems he may have been but as far as I know he hasnt been caught.....if he was a nut from the crazy house that escaped that was from muslim desent(sp?) would you still blame Islam?

2) They went to Islamic Schools so I would say yes......but when asked about why he had also killed christians in the bombings one of them said: " Asked about Christians who died in attacks, he replied: "Christians are not my brothers." which is against Islam (along with the bombings)

3) Although most Chechens are Muslim, Aslan Maskhadov, who became president of Chechnya after Russian forces withdrew in 1996, was seen as relatively secular. However, he came under increasing pressure from radical Islamic factions led by warlord Shamil Basayev and eventually declared Sharia law, or Islamic law, an idea that has less support among the public at large than it does among the rebels.

4) Yes.....although not mainstream Islam (shia) and was mainly popular in Iran(and the US after he overthrough a puppet the US set up in that country)

5) Well 1st of all that girl is in Prison and she had her brothers baby and the fault in this case lies with the family who has asked for this punishment.....I dont know anything about the judge

6) Yes.....Although propped up to have more power than he really has and has been used as a "scapegoat" by Israeli's and the US

7) Only when it was convient for him to be one....he ran a Secular state that had waaayyyy to many pictures of himself around to be a true muslim (in my opinion) he also slaughtered many innocent muslim's which goes aaginst the Koran

8) Not really in my opinion......the are Wahabi's which although use the Koran as a reference their behavior (in my opinion) is unislamic

9) lol.....yes well I am....sometimes misguided (small percentage of them)

10) yes....although in my opinion sometimes misguided (small percentage of them)

11) there is a whole thread about this elsewhere.......they take the Shahada so I would say yes but some of the things they say and practice............

12) While preserving many Islamic symbols, the Druze religion also incorporates Gnostic and neo-Platonic tenets...so I guess but I dont know really (same as Sufi's)

Now can I ask you a few :) ..............

1) Was Hitler a Christian?

2) Is George Bush a Christian?

3) are the men who knowing killed maybe up to 100k people in Iraq "Christ-like" (christians)

4)Is Tony Blair Christian?

5) Was Ronald Reagan Christian when he gave Sadaam Chemical Weapons?

6) Is this woman who said that God told her to kill her sons Christian?:

http://g.msn.com/9SE/1?http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/12/slain.children&&DI=293&IG=706a08e6dc144ded9eedf25895f4512d&POS=12&CM=WPU&CE=12

7) were the soldiers at Abu Grahib christian?

8) Are the KKK christian?

9) was Timothy Mcvey christian?

10) etc..........

You see in my mind I dont use those examples as a mindset for all Christians. I admit that some Muslims do just as Im sure you admit that some Christians use your left as a defination of all Muslims and that is indeed a problem :m:

path

11-06-04, 03:22 PM

[QUOTE]

I sure hope that wasnt directed at me because I have said nothing even close to that.....As a matter or fact I dont think Bruce did either as far as I know he said that the Murder was wrong but he wouldnt lose any sllep over the man being dead.....I see a big difference

I think she was making a general statement about posting things like "well he brought it upon himself or he insulted a belief that muslims take very very seriously" etc.

Bruce said amongst other things

I would not have had him killed, if only because the ammo it will give **********-troopers like path here

not much condemnation there is there.

path

11-06-04, 04:56 PM

More contents of the note that was around the knife stuck into Theo Van Gogh's chest and the dutch response.
Here (http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2004/11/06/dutch_political_leader_cites_arrival_of_jihad/)

excerpt

THE HAGUE -- The government vowed tough measures yesterday against what a leading politician called ''the arrival of jihad in the Netherlands" after a death threat against a Dutch lawmaker was found in a letter pinned with a knife to the body of a slain filmmaker.

The five-page letter, signed by a suspected terrorist group, was released Thursday by the justice minister, and forced political leaders to take on bodyguards.

I think this sums up what people were trying to express regards this incident and the right and wrong of it.

''These people don't want to change our society, they want to destroy it," he said

surenderer

11-06-04, 06:36 PM

More contents of the note that was around the knife stuck into Theo Van Gogh's chest and the dutch response.
Here (http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2004/11/06/dutch_political_leader_cites_arrival_of_jihad/)

excerpt

I think this sums up what people were trying to express regards this incident and the right and wrong of it.

The thing I find irritating about that article is the use of the word "Jihad" In the West, "jihad" is generally translated as "holy war," a usage the media has popularized. According to Islamic teachings, it is UNHOLY to instigate or start war; however, some wars are inevitable and justifiable. If I were to translate the words "holy war" back into Arabic, we find "harbun muqaddasatu," or for "the holy war," "al-harbu al-muqaddasatu." WE CHALLENGE any researcher or scholar to find the meaning of "jihad" as holy war in the Qur'an or authentic Hadith collections or in early Islamic literature. Why doesnt the West know this? You see I see something like this and it makes me think that the West WANTS this to be a "holy war" because thats how it is always described

The Creator says in the Qur'an( interpetation of meaning):

"And STRIVE (JADIHU) for Allah with the endeavor (JIHADIHI) which is His right. He has chosen you and has not laid upon you in the DEEN (religion) any hardship..." (22:78)

"And whosoever STRIVES (JAHADA), STRIVES (YUJAHIDU) only for himself, for lo! Allah is altogether independent of the universe." (29:6)

etc........if this is off-topic I apologize but I would like to know if that term was used in that letter because any true muslim would know better :m:

Michael

11-06-04, 08:04 PM

.
1) Was Hitler a Christian?

2) Is George Bush a Christian?

3) are the men who knowing killed maybe up to 100k people in Iraq "Christ-like" (christians)

4)Is Tony Blair Christian?

5) Was Ronald Reagan Christian when he gave Sadaam Chemical Weapons?

6) Is this woman who said that God told her to kill her sons Christian?:

http://g.msn.com/9SE/1?http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/12/slain.children&&DI=293&IG=706a08e6dc144ded9eedf25895f4512d&POS=12&CM=WPU&CE=12

7) were the soldiers at Abu Grahib christian?

8) Are the KKK christian?

9) was Timothy Mcvey christian?

10) etc..........

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Yes
5) Yes
6) Yes as well as a sociopath
7) Yes
8) Yes as well as being brainwashed Christian they are brainwashed to believe in racial supremacy.
9) Yes

You see in my mind I dont use those examples as a mindset for all Christians. I admit that some Muslims do just as Im sure you admit that some Christians use your left as a defination of all Muslims and that is indeed a problem :m:I know a number of Muslims and I don’t use the examples to represent all Muslims, what bugs me and what I was getting at is that when a person (that happens to be Muslims) does some heinous crime in the name of God because of what they were taught, I hear any number of Muslims say – well they’re not "real" Muslims because the Qur'an is against that.

Well, I beg your pardon - I think the Qur'an (or Bible or whatever) can be used to justify doing about anything.

And they are.

The simple fact is Muslims use the Qur'an to incite hatred, Christians the Bible and Jews the Torah. Whereas many mainstream Christians and Jews accept this has happened and is happening and try to change it, I don't see many Muslims doing this.

Instead I hear something like, well the Russians are bad and do as bad. So what - then its OK? Because with the deafening silence - that's what it sounds like.

I will agree that the same reasoning used by the leaders in the Islamic armies to kill the non-believers is the same reasoning that the Christians use to kill non-believers. So it doesn’t matter what religion people are. Any book can be interpreted in such a way as to be used to kill people?

I agree that Islam has spread peacefully - Would you agree that Islamic also spread by killing and that Islamic armies conquered many peoples in the name of God?

Was this killing of polytheists to spread the "truth" of Islam righteous in your opinion? Did Mohammed ever lead these armies?

I agree Islam has spread both by force as well as by peace - but for some reason many Muslims seem to like to forget the later arrangement, or deny it even happened, or say well it was Gods-will so it was OK. I’m sure the guy that killed the artists thinks the same.

Let me ask a couple other questions:
1) What does it mean to be “perfect”?
2) Is the Qur’an “perfect”?
3) Which is more perfect (i) a book that can be interpreted in such a way as to incite hatred or (ii) a book in which it is impossible to be interpreted in a way to incite hatred?
4) Is the Qur’an used to incite hatred? Can you give some examples of how it is used and which verses in the Qur’an are miss “interpreted” to such an effect? How do you interpret these verses?

Michael

11-06-04, 10:40 PM

The thing I find irritating about that article is the use of the word "Jihad" In the West, "jihad" is generally translated as "holy war," a usage the media has popularized. According to Islamic teachings, it is UNHOLY to instigate or start war; however, some wars are inevitable and justifiable. If I were to translate the words "holy war" back into Arabic, we find "harbun muqaddasatu," or for "the holy war," "al-harbu al-muqaddasatu." WE CHALLENGE any researcher or scholar to find the meaning of "jihad" as holy war in the Qur'an or authentic Hadith collections or in early Islamic literature. Why doesnt the West know this? You see I see something like this and it makes me think that the West WANTS this to be a "holy war" because thats how it is always described

The Creator says in the Qur'an( interpetation of meaning):

"And STRIVE (JADIHU) for Allah with the endeavor (JIHADIHI) which is His right. He has chosen you and has not laid upon you in the DEEN (religion) any hardship..." (22:78)

"And whosoever STRIVES (JAHADA), STRIVES (YUJAHIDU) only for himself, for lo! Allah is altogether independent of the universe." (29:6)

etc........if this is off-topic I apologize but I would like to know if that term was used in that letter because any true muslim would know better :m:From Aljazeera: Saudi scholars - Support Iraqi fighters (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/DF6DD7BA-3B43-45A0-94EA-6D7B0F1CCEEB.htm)

The scholars - some of whom have been criticised in the past for their views - issued a fatwa, or religious edict, prohibiting Iraqis from offering any support for military operations carried out by US forces against anti-US fighter strongholds.

"Fighting the occupiers is a duty for all those who are able. It is a jihad (holy war) to push back the assailants ...," said the letter dated 5 November.
I'm sure jihad has many meansings but it seems even Aljazeera "translates" it to mean holy war. And I think that's what many people do think: Holy War

(kind of Bush- like mentality huh?)

path

11-07-04, 03:33 AM

The thing I find irritating about that article is the use of the word "Jihad" In the West, "jihad" is generally translated as "holy war," a usage the media has popularized. According to Islamic teachings, it is UNHOLY to instigate or start war; however, some wars are inevitable and justifiable. If I were to translate the words "holy war" back into Arabic, we find "harbun muqaddasatu," or for "the holy war," "al-harbu al-muqaddasatu." WE CHALLENGE any researcher or scholar to find the meaning of "jihad" as holy war in the Qur'an or authentic Hadith collections or in early Islamic literature. Why doesnt the West know this? You see I see something like this and it makes me think that the West WANTS this to be a "holy war" because thats how it is always described

The Creator says in the Qur'an( interpetation of meaning):

"And STRIVE (JADIHU) for Allah with the endeavor (JIHADIHI) which is His right. He has chosen you and has not laid upon you in the DEEN (religion) any hardship..." (22:78)

"And whosoever STRIVES (JAHADA), STRIVES (YUJAHIDU) only for himself, for lo! Allah is altogether independent of the universe." (29:6)

etc........if this is off-topic I apologize but I would like to know if that term was used in that letter because any true muslim would know better :m:

Surrenderer I understand your sentiment regarding jihad as a military venture but it is not the west or the media that has given jihad this meaning it is muslims. You can claim they are mistaken all you want and they can and do claim you are mistaken. Either way allah ordering believers to kill others is in the quran many times over. I know you mean that those were specific instructions regarding a specific time in the past BUT the quran does not make any such specific claims regarding time (if I am wrong please post the correction). There is also the book of jihad in sunnah regarding military jihad. We all prefer your defintion of jihad but the other interpretation was also there before western media existed. I am not trying to say you or they are right or wrong just that military jihad is not an invention of the west.

johnahmed

11-07-04, 10:06 AM

So he got what he deserved then?

hey may or may not have deserved to die,but in life there are always boundries that are risky to cross,there are always people in all walks of life all be it a tiny minority who will be so "grossly offended" that they will take extreme measures,i.e it wouldt surprise me if some one praising peodofilia and rape at some point got lynched and killed. It doesnt necesseraly mean he deserved it but it does mean there are reprecussions when u cross certain boundries.

surenderer

11-07-04, 11:24 AM

Let me ask a couple other questions:
1) What does it mean to be “perfect”?
2) Is the Qur’an “perfect”?
3) Which is more perfect (i) a book that can be interpreted in such a way as to incite hatred or (ii) a book in which it is impossible to be interpreted in a way to incite hatred?
4) Is the Qur’an used to incite hatred? Can you give some examples of how it is used and which verses in the Qur’an are miss “interpreted” to such an effect? How do you interpret these verses?[/QUOTE]

1) My interpetation is something without error

2) An untranslated Koran(arabic) in my opinion gives the perfect message to live life by

3) Well since it is being followed by humans who arent perfect there will always be mistakes made

4) yes sometimes it is......there are firey Mullahs who hate Jews that misinterpete some things the Koran states as for an example I dont have alot of time right now but for the moment(interpetation of meaning):

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Now this is used by Mullah's inciting hatred and by Westerners who dont understand ,but what it is refering to is the Jew's and Christians who were conspiring aghainst the Muslims during that time of War They would pretend to be friends with the Muslims only to backstab them during War

Afterwards the Prophet(pbuh) was told:

[5.69] Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

There are many examples of this (that one is the 1st example that comes to mind) Now Muslims and Jews have actually lived together in unity for centuries....only with the advent of Zionism and Israel has there been renewed problems

As far as treating "People of the Book" (jews christians):

Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)."

Will write more later inshallah :m:

path

11-07-04, 12:37 PM

hey may or may not have deserved to die,but in life there are always boundries that are risky to cross,there are always people in all walks of life all be it a tiny minority who will be so "grossly offended" that they will take extreme measures,i.e it wouldt surprise me if some one praising peodofilia and rape at some point got lynched and killed. It doesnt necesseraly mean he deserved it but it does mean there are reprecussions when u cross certain boundries.

BULLSHIT! That might wash in the middle east or soviet russia but it doesn't fly in a modern democratic state. this is EXACTLY what we have been trying to explain here.
Expressing an opinion should in no way mean risking your life.
Pedophilia is a crime encouraging a crime will get you in trouble with the authorities as well as society at large. We are not talking about a crime here we are talking about social commentary. Criticizing, artistically or directly some segment of society is part and parcel of a free society give that up and you are not living in a free society, give that up and abuse can run rampant! Give that up and nazi's can take power again etc etc.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE, NO JUSTIFYING MURDER FOR AN OPINION YOU DON'T LIKE!

path

11-07-04, 04:01 PM

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Now this is used by Mullah's inciting hatred and by Westerners who dont understand ,but what it is refering to is the Jew's and Christians who were conspiring aghainst the Muslims during that time of War They would pretend to be friends with the Muslims only to backstab them during War

Can you please post the verses in the quran that explain that this is only valid for that specific time or war?

Afterwards the Prophet(pbuh) was told:

[5.69] Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

There are many examples of this (that one is the 1st example that comes to mind) Now Muslims and Jews have actually lived together in unity for centuries....only with the advent of Zionism and Israel has there been renewed problems

As far as treating "People of the Book" (jews christians):

Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)."

This is also used to say(in other verses of the quran) that those who do associate partners with allah (ie. christians) will burn in eternal fire in hell.
Sorry gotta run

path

11-07-04, 05:29 PM

Some more from the Netherlands

For some Dutch officials it was evidence of a social experiment gone horribly wrong. “We were naive in thinking people would exist in society together,” said Rita Verdonk, the immigration and integration minister whose name also appears on the death list.

For those that try and rationalize this of this behavior

She added that Moroccan immigrants “have never learnt about Dutch values”, despite efforts to train them to respect the country’s mores.

It is hardly surprising. Many of Holland’s 1m Muslims consider the Dutch government to be depraved in its acceptance of “abominations” such as drugs, prostitution and gay marriage. They want nothing to do with it.
For Bruce's "higher punishments" comment

At the same time, Dutch tolerance no longer extends so readily these days to immigration and religious diversity. In graffiti scrawled on walls all over the city, the message is seen repeatedly, “Go home if you don’t like it”.

Regarding a dislike for others opinions
These are reactions from the dutch and I am no