http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4284838.stm

Last Updated: Monday, 26 September 2005, 19:52 GMT 20:52 UK


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US soldier guilty of prison abuse



Lynndie England, the woman at the centre of the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal, has been found guilty of abusing prisoners at the Iraqi jail.

England, 22, was found guilty on six of the seven charges, including maltreatment of prisoners. She faces a maximum of 10 years in prison.

She was the last in a group of nine army reservists charged with mistreating inmates at the prison.

She was retried after a judge rejected her original guilty plea in May.

England showed no visible reaction as she stood to attention in the military court in Texas to hear the verdict.

A military prosecutor had argued that England humiliated prisoners because she enjoyed it and had a sick sense of humour.

Her lawyers said she took part in the humiliation because she had a compliant personality and was dominated by her boyfriend at the Iraqi prison.

In photographs published around the world, England was shown holding a naked Iraqi prisoner by a leash, and pointing to a naked inmate's genitals.
**************
Lynndie England the bitch & bat out of hell, is going to get her turn in jail now, i can only hope, she gets the same level of abuse, she meated out at iraqi jails,


"Her lawyers said she took part in the humiliation because she had a compliant personality and was dominated by her boyfriend at the Iraqi prison. "

What a crock of shit, more like the other way around, i can just see her in her black leather dominance outfit, as she whips her boyfriend with a dog collar around his neck.

If ever there is a case against, family inbreeding she is it, what a hillbilly sadist, straight froms the swamps of america.

Begone i cast you out, you devil bitch.

Somehow I do not think you will here the arab world proclaiming "What an excellent example of American justice!!"

Lindy was only the tip of the iceberg, the fall guy for systematic abuse commanded from the top down. Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez is known to have signed memos (http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17868&c=206) approving torture techniques.

I wouldn't blame her, she was deliberately chosen by the real perps for her aptitude in this matter. If you think it's all her fault, you're a fool.

Also, there are alot more pics and videos from abu grabe that few have seen.
http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=2142
Including the raping of boys. I'm sure Lindy didn't do that.

the fall guy for systematic abuse commanded from the top down. . If you think it's all her fault, you're a fool.

Fall bitch you mean, hey spider , i know when someone is getting job satisfaction, they usually have a big smile on there face, she had plenty of smiles in those sick photos.

She looked liked, she was posing for family snaps, such is her enjoyment.

and if you say, her orders came from above, for torture, did these orders include taking these family snaps, then selling them to the media, to make a quick buck.

The bottom line, is this, she did not look like, she was being forced into anything, she looked like she was in disneyland, and having a damn good time too.

She is the most sadistic bitch, i have ever seen, only kathy bates in misery, smashing james caans ankles together, with a sledgehammer tops, Lynndie Englands escapades.

And how dare she use England, as her surname, that is a insult, to the greatest country, in the universe, and beyond that too.

Fall bitch you mean, hey spider , i know when someone is getting job satisfaction, they usually have a big smile on there face, she had plenty of smiles in those sick photos.

She looked liked, she was posing for family snaps, such is her enjoyment.

and if you say, her orders came from above, for torture, did these orders include taking these family snaps, then selling them to the media, to make a quick buck.

The bottom line, is this, she did not look like, she was being forced into anything, she looked like she was in disneyland, and having a damn good time too.

She is the most sadistic bitch, i have ever seen, only kathy bates in misery, smashing james caans ankles together, with a sledgehammer tops, Lynndie Englands escapades.

And how dare she use England, as her surname, that is a insult, to the greatest country, in the universe, and beyond that too.

stop hating our soliders, you pathetic birtish looney. What about your fucking birtish troops who enjoyed shooting at civilians and torture iraqis all the time? i bet ur media is hiding those cowards or they must be hiding in Bliars house.

Also, there are alot more pics and videos from abu grabe that few have seen.
http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=2142
Including the raping of boys. I'm sure Lindy didn't do that.

I think she looks llike, miss piggy,
the only decent thing to come, out of this, is her boyfriend, trying to accept all the blame himself, while she was pregnant with his piglet.
they may be dirty pigs, but atleast one pig, can hold his head up high.

Who is more to blame, the kind of person who would abuse prisoners, or the kind of people that would employ them?

Who is more to blame, the kind of person who would abuse prisoners, or the kind of people that would employ them?

Well, perhaps more to blame are the people who raised her? ...or the teachers in the schools who kept passing her into the next grade without seriously considering her problems? ...or perhaps the society that allows so much "freedom" that the members can't weed out those who'd do the society harm?

Baron Max

.or perhaps the society that allows so much "freedom" that the members can't weed out those who'd do the society harm?

Baron Max


hahahahahaha,yeah in the army there is such freedom.the army which takes away the part of your brain which says "the enemy are fellow human beings,i dont want to kill them".you must be stoned 24/7

funny thing is happening vinnie is posting more "liberal" threads and yet the same people are disagreeing with him.is this a cunning ploy by vinnie to turn liberals into nazis through reverse psychology?

You didn't read my post, did you, Kenworth?? ...LOL! If you had, you'd have seen that I was talking about a society BEFORE she ever even got into the army.

Baron Max

You didn't read my post, did you, Kenworth?? ...LOL! If you had, you'd have seen that I was talking about a society BEFORE she ever even got into the army.

Baron Max

was she or was she not in the army when she commited the crime?the army takes away boundaries that are enforced in western society.ie.bad to kill,all humans are equal.

Still didn't read my posts, did you? ...LOL! And I ain't gonna answer any more of your idiotic posts until you do so and respond to what I wrote.

Baron Max

*sigh* i guess ill just have to live without your insights on this topic then

Baron,
The only thing wrong with what she did was that it was not consentual. In private life, she could have earned a good living abusing men, however, whoever instructed her on the best way to abuse muslim prisoners, and gave her access to them is at fault here.

Are you people trying to tell me that some moron from West Virginia is responsible for the systematic abuse of muslim prisoners in Abu Grabe, Afghanistan, AND Guantanamo?

Are you people trying to tell me that some moron from West Virginia is responsible for the systematic abuse of muslim prisoners in Abu Grabe, Afghanistan, AND Guantanamo?

For an enlisted person to have committed the acts she did, it had to be condoned and approved from on high. With as many pictures taken and personnel involved, there's no way this wasn't standard practice.

Her crime was being stupid enough to be photographed. Had no pictures ever surfaced, this trial would never have taken place.

A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers' blood.
A finger fired the trigger to his name.
A handle hid out in the dark
A hand set the spark
Two eyes took the aim
Behind a man's brain
But he can't be blamed
He's only a pawn in their game.

A South politician preaches to the poor white man,
"You got more than the blacks, don't complain.
You're better than them, you been born with white skin," they explain.
And the Negro's name
Is used it is plain
For the politician's gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid,
And the marshals and cops get the same,
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool.
He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

From the poverty shacks, he looks from the cracks to the tracks,
And the hoof beats pound in his brain.
And he's taught how to walk in a pack
Shoot in the back
With his fist in a clinch
To hang and to lynch
To hide 'neath the hood
To kill with no pain
Like a dog on a chain
He ain't got no name
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

Today, Medgar Evers was buried from the bullet he caught.
They lowered him down as a king.
But when the shadowy sun sets on the one
That fired the gun
He'll see by his grave
On the stone that remains
Carved next to his name
His epitaph plain:
Only a pawn in their game.

"Only a Pawn in Their Game" - Bob Dylan

That's what I think.

- N

...however, whoever instructed her on the best way to abuse muslim prisoners, and gave her access to them is at fault here.

And all I was trying to point out was the fact that you and others seem to want to stop checking her background/education/psychology when it's convienent for your own agenda.

The person or persons who might have actually "taught" her to act that way could well have been her parents and/or her early teachers! But y'all don't want to go there ..you want to stop when the blame can be put on the person or persons that YOU want it put on.

PFC England learned how to act in early life, she didn't learn any of that in the army or from her army boyfriend. If she'd learned proper social skills in grade school, she'd probably never have done any of that at Abu Gharib.

[QUOTE=spidergoat]Are you people trying to tell me that some moron from West Virginia is responsible for the systematic abuse ...?QUOTE]

First, I disagree with the very concept of "systematic abuse". If you wish to use that term, please show that it was "systematic" versus isolated incidents.

Second, I wasn't trying to tell you taht PFC England is/was "responsible". However, let's be accurate ...I think those individuals who participated were responsible. And I beleive, just like PFC England, those men were "taught" to do that kind of shit at an early age ...NOT in the army! I don't believe that any officer would have ordered that abuse nor would have approved or condoned it.

Baron Max

For an enlisted person to have committed the acts she did, it had to be condoned and approved from on high. With as many pictures taken and personnel involved, there's no way this wasn't standard practice.

Don't know much about the military life, do you?

The officers, even the non-coms, aren't lookin' down the throats of each group of soldiers all the time!

Baron Max

They're prisoners. They deserve the worst. They shouldn't have gotten caught fighting on the wrong side.

England broke our country's laws, Baron. Should we make excuses for her?

England broke our country's laws, Baron. Should we make excuses for her?

No. And I never said anything like that in any of my posts ......and you know it, don't you, Roman?! ...LOL!

Baron Max

Well, perhaps more to blame are the people who raised her? ...or the teachers in the schools who kept passing her into the next grade without seriously considering her problems? ...or perhaps the society that allows so much "freedom" that the members can't weed out those who'd do the society harm?

This is what you said, no? If her teachers, parents, etc are to blame, then who to punish?

"Well, perhaps more to blame are the people who raised her? ...or the teachers in the schools who kept passing her into the next grade without seriously considering her problems? ...or perhaps the society that allows so much "freedom" that the members can't weed out those who'd do the society harm?"

This is what you said, no? If her teachers, parents, etc are to blame, then who to punish?

Hey, Roman, now I know you can't read!! See those little marks at the end of each of the sentences I wrote? Do you know what those mean? And do you also know that I wrote those sentences in response to someone else's post ....you should read ALL of the post, Roman, before you try to comprehend any of it. Wanna' try again???? ...LOL!

Baron Max

Baron, what the hell are you going on about?

Oh, the question marks. Right. You know that a question can be posed rhetorically, and you do it all the time.

So, why are you asking such idiotic questions?

I think its more the US Militarys fault.

Other people in the army would have known this was going on and turned their heads, looked the other way. But people wouldn't just do that. Most people are outraged with the way england acted, so unless the entire US Army is filled with people like england someone would have said to the soldiers "You didn't see nothing".

But it would have to be from someone of a higher rank, and who does he/she get his/her orders from, the next person up and they get their orders from the next person up etc etc until it can go no higher.

The point i am trying to make is that the highest people in the military would have known about it and IMO let them do it until it became publicly aware, England is a scapegoat for the entire scandal but the people higher up are giving the orders that its ok to torture and abuse prisoners.

They should be the ones imprisoned along with the people actually performing these horrendous acts.

P.S Most of what i said is based on my knowledge of the incident which is not too good, so if i have said anything wrong when it came to facts or based anything else on facts that are wrong please just ignore me :p

P.S Most of what i said is based on my knowledge of the incident which is not too good,...

And yet, not really knowing much of anything, you made all of those vile accusations of criminal activity?????? ...just like that? ...without knowing shit, you accuse people of being criminals??

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Baron Max

For an enlisted person to have committed the acts she did, it had to be condoned and approved from on high. With as many pictures taken and personnel involved, there's no way this wasn't standard practice.

Her crime was being stupid enough to be photographed. Had no pictures ever surfaced, this trial would never have taken place.

You have just said all that has to be said. You are 100% correct.

Baron you are right to say what have said, but thats just my interpretation of whats going on, some on said if the pictures never surfaced they never would have gone on trial, so who was going to say something about it? would it have just kept on happening?

All I'm saying is if it did keep on happening the people who turn their heads are to blame as well as the people who did it, i'm sorry if you mis-interpreted that or i just said it unclearly

This bitch, has a set of balls, i will take her into my harem.

I saw an Army captain interviewed on TV today. He said that what we call abuse of the prisoners in Iraq was standard treatment for prisoners in Afghanistan. It was what the interrogators did to them that was the real abuse.

They're prisoners. They deserve the worst. They shouldn't have gotten caught fighting on the wrong side.
Actually, they weren't caught figting at all.
The majority of teh people in that prison were civilians not charged with any crimes and not participating in the "insurgency".

I saw an Army captain interviewed on TV today. He said that what we call abuse of the prisoners in Iraq was standard treatment for prisoners in Afghanistan. It was what the interrogators did to them that was the real abuse.

And he admitted that all of his "information" was second and third hand rumors and unsubstantiated allegations. It would be nothing more than citing some of the "stories" floating around the sciforums and other Internet sites.

Baron Max

The majority of teh people in that prison were civilians not charged with any crimes and not participating in the "insurgency".

Where did you get that information?

And in Iraq, what's the difference between a "civilian" and an "insurgent"? Just the "uniform", perhaps? Or do they tatoo "insurgent" on their foreheads?

Please provide your sources and evidence.

Baron Max

And he admitted that all of his "information" was second and third hand rumors and unsubstantiated allegations. It would be nothing more than citing some of the "stories" floating around the sciforums and other Internet sites.

Baron Max

His allegations are unsubstantiated only because the Pentagon chose not to investigate them. He told them everything they needed to know to push the abuse scandal up to the command level. What would his motives be to spread false allegations??

Had there been no pictures there would have been only second hand rumors in the original investigation. I would trust a A West point graduates personal word more than internet "stories" any day.

His allegations are unsubstantiated only because the Pentagon chose not to investigate them.

So you think the Pentagon (or any other company?) should spend time and money to investigate any and all unsubstantiated allegations and accusations? ...just jump up and assume that something's true? ...in a nation where we're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law?

Even the investigative reporter for NBC was skeptical of his allegations ....due mainly to the fact that his info was admittedly 2nd-3rd hand. I.e., nothing but rumors!

What would his motives be to spread false allegations??

Didn't get his promotions as quick as he wanted? ...was passed over in favor of another person (who happened to be part of the allegations?). ...he was upset at having to go to Iraq? ...he was upset at the army? ...he had PMS?

You and others seem to be ONLY able to see all of this with your excellent 20/20 hindsight! In the real world, no one can or should accept any accusations or allegations without some evidence or substantiating facts. If we did so, our legal system would be nothing but a shambles!

How would you like it if the police investigated you or your family based on only someone's unsubstantiated allegations or accusations? Would you approve that as much as you seem to approve the military doing it?

Baron Max

Didn't get his promotions as quick as he wanted? ...was passed over in favor of another person (who happened to be part of the allegations?). ...he was upset at having to go to Iraq? ...he was upset at the army? ...he had PMS?

None of those things would cause a soldier to ruin his career by making false allegations.

You and others seem to be ONLY able to see all of this with your excellent 20/20 hindsight! In the real world, no one can or should accept any accusations or allegations without some evidence or substantiating facts. If we did so, our legal system would be nothing but a shambles!

Most criminal investigations begin when someone makes an accusation.

How would you like it if the police investigated you or your family based on only someone's unsubstantiated allegations or accusations.

Baron Max

That happens all of the time. The police corroborate the facts in the accusations before investigating. The Pentagon choose not to.

None of those things would cause a soldier to ruin his career by making false allegations.

Ahh, he might ahve been paid a gazillion dollars for his exclusive interview! See? You don't know either, yet ye're defending his UN-subtatiated allegations and accusations! That's wrong! We're a nation of laws and without it, we're nothing but barbarians.

Most criminal investigations begin when someone makes an accusation.

NOT UN-substantiated allegations!! No one with any brains at all would "investigate" such bullshit accusations without SOME form of evidence. And it's a damned good thing, too. Our laws protect people from just that same sort of thing (except, apparently, rape and child-molestation allegations .....with those, even a hint is enough to ruiin a person's entire life!!). ...or is that what you want??

Baron Max

Read a little more about the "unsubstantiated allegations" here (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/6388256?rnd=1128041501171&has-player=true&version=6.0.7.811).
Testimony from prisoners, soldiers, brass ALL point to systematic abuse stemming from a lack of supervision, a lack of support and a practical war zone at the prison.

Baron,
You are an intelligent man. Don't make an ass out of yourself by simply making shit up and reaching for blind justifications without doing at least A LITTLE research.
It'e pretty obvious that you really don't know anything about what happened there, so why make excuses and justifications for the actions? Is it just partisan justifications? Is it a defensive act stirred up by what you see as "anti-Americanism"?
You are arguing without ANY facts to back you up, yet you berate others for going on gut instincts and saying they believe someone is guilty without supporting evidence.
Are you really THAT hypocritical?

From the Washington Post September 26 2005:
["Some days we would just get bored so we would have everyone sit in a corner and then make them get in a pyramid," an unidentified sergeant who worked at the base from August 2003 to April 2004 told Human Rights Watch. "This was before Abu Ghraib but just like it. We did that for amusement."

And like soldiers accused at Abu Ghraib, these troops said that military intelligence interrogators encouraged their actions, telling them to make sure the detainees did not sleep or were physically exhausted so as to get them to talk.]


My feelings about this,
The whole dam thing was about the non existent WMD., and torturing people to get information that they did not have. Now no one wants to take the blame because it goes all the way to the Pentagon.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/23/AR2005092301897.html

Please provide your sources and evidence.
There are PLENTY of sources available on teh internet if you decide to actually look for truth rather than simple justification of your preconceived notions.

This is one pretty good one from a credible news source, but certainly not the only one. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5412316/site/newsweek)

Do petty thieves deserve to be tortured?

From the Washington Post September 26 2005:
["Some days we would just get bored so we would have everyone sit in a corner and then make them get in a pyramid," an unidentified sergeant who worked at the base from August 2003 to April 2004 told Human Rights Watch. "This was before Abu Ghraib but just like it. We did that for amusement."


This all sounds like slapstick comedy, its a great pretty its true, i mean these are the acts of children, playing soldiers,

getting grown men to make a pyramid, just because you have a childs mentality, join the circus as a clown, there is no place in a disciplined army, for clowns.

It just seems to me, uncle sam is recruiting its soldiers, directly from billy smarts circus, these days, and to think these guys, have guns too,
Where is there senior officers?
Where is there commander & chief or chef?
Where is there master of ceremonies?
Where is there ringmaster?
he is at his texas ranch, Ronald McDonald, AKA as george dubba bush, the senior clown, of this circus.