The more I read, the more I wonder about Gods perfection.
I am confused about how such a wonderful God could so easily command the slaughter of those he created.

Read these passages from Deuteronomy 13 : New International Version (NIV)
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Deuteronomy 13
1
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,
2
and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"
3
you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
4
It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.
5
That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
6
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known,
7
gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other),
8
do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him.
9
You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.
10
Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
11
Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.
12
If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in
13
that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known),
14
then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you,
15
you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely,[1] both its people and its livestock.
16
Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.
17
None of those condemned things[2] shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers,
18
because you obey the LORD your God, keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.
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Well, I am speechless.... Do you feel you can justify the your Lords words and intent of savage brutality upon his children?

cheers
RazZ

Well, not specifically. But I did, in general, find the Biblical God to be too bloody, both in theory (Bible) and practice (history). Combined with the personal distaste my years among the Christian folk leaves me ... well?

I know it's not helpful, and there really is nothing to say to justify such atrocity. It's a contributing factor to my rejection of the Christian faith, so let that, at least, stand as a testament.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

More food for thought
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Psalm 137 NIV

Psalm 137
1
By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion.
2
There on the poplars we hung our harps,
3
for there our captors asked us for songs, our tormentors demanded songs of joy; they said, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!"
4
How can we sing the songs of the LORD while in a foreign land?
5
If I forget you, O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget [its skill].
6
May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you, if I do not consider Jerusalem my highest joy.
7
Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. "Tear it down," they cried, "tear it down to its foundations!"
8
O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us--
9
he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.
.................................................. ................................................

wow ..... such a merciful religion.But before you make claims im taking these scriptures out of context....explain why bashing little babies heads in was used as an example.
Just sounds sick to me.

cheers
RazZ

Alot of the bible is interpretted wrongly.

I'm guessing you got this one from the a christian version. However there are many similarities in that parts are taken out of the original bible and then translated improperly.

But alot is translated properly. I mean if you look at it from a different perpspective then you will see that it is generally trying to send a different message.

In the torah its said that god has to be respected and feared. Why feared? Because fear is the next best thing to respect. You might not want to respect someone but if you fear them it's the next best thing. The same with God.

Its hard to explain. I mean God doesnt endorse it. He merely advocates his word through harsh text that by many is considered horrible. But if it was all la di da, and happy affectionate people holding hands and dancing in a circle nobody would read it or take it seriously.

In my religion we believe that god isnt evil or bad, and that the 'creator' as we call him can do no harm to his creations.

I mean if you turn your back on him, saying they'll be stoned or whatever is like saying its their loss because the torah is supposed to be helpful and lead people to a higher understanding and better wellbeing.

Neways, I'm swamped with homework that I've neglected most of this vacation so I got to go but I'll be back to this thread cause I know I didnt explain myself completely.

And?

Babylon slaughters a bunch of Israelites and you act surprised that they'd be happy to do the same back?

Lying in the name of God is a serious offense. The punishment is death. No duh they're going to be related to someone and you can't take that into consideration when punishing them.

There's nothing wrong with the translation. You just have no grasp of the seriousness of such crimes against God.

Guess what?

People are wicked and deserve serious punishments sometimes.

Ben

Originally posted by razz
O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us--
9
he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.
.................................................. ................................................

wow ..... such a merciful religion.But before you make claims im taking these scriptures out of context....explain why bashing little babies heads in was used as an example.
Just sounds sick to me.

cheers
RazZ Hmmm. No wonder they stick to the first part and ignore the second. :D

What's wrong about the second part?

Ben

Deuteronomy 13
1
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,
2
and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"
3
you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
4
It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.

I'm ok with this to right here.

5
That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

But you just said God was testing us. Are we to murder the tools of God? Besides, the 10 Commandments that God has given us, which he himself has written, say that we are not to murder anyone. I often say in parts like this that the Bible was not delivered intact from Heaven. It's parts were written, inspired or not, by fallable human beings, and it was assembled by human beings who rejected many other works based on their own biases. The Bible may be the word of God, or it may not be, but if it is, I would say that it's a little tarnished. You have to know how to seperate the good from the rest. Keep what rings true to you and discard the rest. If God exists and loves you, he will guide you to truth if you honestly seek it.

8
O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us--
9
he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.


This psalm was not written by God, but by man, men who mourned because they were slaves in another land. It is their desire for revenge that is in these words, not the desire of God. (At least, that is what I believe.)
You will notice in other parts of the Bible that there are plenty of times that the misfortunes of the Israelites are blamed on their lack of faith and inability to keep their end of the covenant with God. There was violence and hatred in that part of the world then, as there is now. So sad. :(

Interesting post, razz. :)

I have mentioned elsewhere that people who display the behaviour the christian god supposedly does, are usually locked up in asylums. :D

Let's see now. Uptil now there's been descriptions of the christian god as -

Frustrated wanker.
Southern hick child abuser.
baby killer.
Psychopath.
6 year old excercising "power" on anthill.

etc.

All in this forum.

Did I miss any?

Did I miss any?I think the "etc." covered anything you might have missed. So far, you're quite accurate with that list.

But I thought I'd throw misogynist in just because I don't want to leave that one to an et cetera. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Well, hm, yes, this is very hard to understand, and I don't claim to be able to. Don't know if I can articulate an idea that might be helpful. "I need help." Feel free to do a revision. Did "God's Secretaries" get to write just their own opinions, not necessarily God's? I don't think so, or it wouldn't have been miraculously preserved thousands of years.

We now have laws to make us as private citizens more gentle, instituted by Jesus Himself. Governments are to firmly handle wrongdoers, ("evildoers") and we don't want to get into whether the death penalty is okay, which would be an endless debate. The Bible says governments bearing the sword is for our good, doesn't it? Maybe that's necessary, due to the nature of mankind, at least until the 2nd Coming of Christ, when all recognize He's the Authority, and beat swords into plowshares.

Some poem says, "Ours is not to reason why, Ours is only to do or die." Anyone remember what it's really about and/or who wrote it, and if it's applicable here?

If we never had the New Commandment to, as a private citizen empathize with your enemy, sometimes tell him he's offended you, sometimes turn the other cheek, and try to get along, would we ever have even thought about violence having been wrong, and why are we poking around in that past which is not ours to control?

Doesn't God have a much better "view" of the situation than we do? Does that maybe explain it? :bugeye:
AmerEagle

Did "God's Secretaries" get to write just their own opinions, not necessarily God's? I don't think so, or it wouldn't have been miraculously preserved thousands of years.

I don't deny that the Bible probably holds some "Truth." However, that Truth as it was revealed to the evangelists was filtered through their own personal biases and opinions before it hit the page. Also, I don't think it's too far gone to say that the evangelists probably felt the need to discuss and explain what they were writing, thus adding on more of themselves. I think the writings in the Bible were preserved because they were important religious texts, but that doesn't mean that they're right.

Quote from Deus:

I often say in parts like this that the Bible was not delivered intact from Heaven. It's parts were written, inspired or not, by fallable human beings, and it was assembled by human beings who rejected many other works based on their own biases. The Bible may be the word of God, or it may not be, but if it is, I would say that it's a little tarnished.



I agree completly. The Bible wasn't nicely lowered down from heaven on a rope. It was written by people, people can make mistakes. There were other texts that never made it into the New Testament. I read somewhere that certain scriptures never made it into the NT because some of them would have infuriated the Roman Government at the time. Plus there are other ancient texts like the Dead Sea Scrolls that were discovered more recently. Even the Jewish are unsure of some of the meanings of certain parts of the text of the Old Testament.

Theres a couple of interesting sites I've come across:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
http://www.qtm.net/~trowbridge/NT_Hist.htm

Some people have got to get rid of the idea that the Bible is a perfectly written piece of text, with black and white, clear cut meanings.