View Full Version : Living With ADHD


Brutus1964
07-29-05, 09:37 PM
http://www.schoolmate.com/news/issues/fall00/images/features/fl00adhd.jpg

Recently I was diagnosed with Adult Attention deficit disorder or ADHD. I have trouble paying attention to what I should be, and overly concentrate on my own thoughts or other things that are going on around me. Looking back I know Iíve had this problem my entire life. I have no idea what caused it. Perhaps it was from watching too much Sesame Street and Electric Company when I was a kid?

In school it was very difficult to listen to the teacher with my mind constantly on other things. It was easier if the teacher was discussing something interesting, but if the subject was boring it could never compete with all the thoughts racing through my mind. Unfortunately I was not being graded on my thoughts.

Since my diagnosis my Doctor has put me on medication. Sorry Tom Cruise! As long as Iím taking it I do great, but if I get off of it for a significant amount of time my ADHD comes back into overdrive. A couple of weeks ago I had such an occurrence. I ran out of pills for about a week. I started this blog about the same time and sure enough I was completely wrapped up into it. I didnít even notice the time I had been spending on the computer until my wife asked me if I had been taking my medication. She can tell when things are not quite right. It was pretty obvious that I was hyper-concentrating on the blogging and becoming oblivious to all else. After I got my pills again things went back to normal pretty quickly. I was able to get my mind off my blog and onto other things. I still work on my blog, but I make sure it doesnít consume my every waking hour.

Having ADHD is can actually be a good thing if I can channel my attention to a worthwhile project. It gives me a burst of creativity, and I can come up with some pretty cool things because Iím able to concentrate my entire efforts into it. When I went back to college in my late 20ís I did very well because I was able to direct my attention into my schoolwork. As a result I got Aís in my classes. So the trick to controlling my ADHD is to consciously divert my attention to important matters and not let myself be distracted by meaningless pursuits. It doesnít always work that way, but when it does great things can happen.

Now that Iím back on my medication it has been much easier to pay attention to other things. At home I can pay more attention to my family, and work has been much better since I can keep my mind on the job and not be so easily distracted. I wish I had of been diagnosed years ago. It would have saved me from a lot of problems.

I do worry that the medication will do away with those bursts of creativity, but so far it doesnít seem to have happened. Iíll find out when I go back to college this fall. I may even do better since Iíll be able to pay more attention in class, even if the teacher is boring.

Now, what was I talking about again? :confused:

wesmorris
07-29-05, 10:14 PM
Meh. Me too, but as far as I can tell, I've adapted. I don't take the meds because the whole thing is just a pain in the ass. For the most part I hate shrinks. I think I know more about the mind than they do, as my hyperfocus goes into that subject for the most part. Not studying what people have written about it, but exploring my own ideas in the field. You have to see a shrink to get the meds, so screw that. I can deal with life as it is.

I'm not even convinced it's a "disorder" so much as "some people just work that way". I do however condone meds if you want them. It's your right IMO, to do with your mind and consciousness as you see fit.

lixluke
07-29-05, 10:41 PM
Why is this even considered a disorder?
Where do you get it?
Knowing how the brain is wired, I have a hard time beleiving the brain can get some disease like this that would affect concentration.

Brutus1964
07-29-05, 11:21 PM
I don't consider it a disease. Just like I said it has its benefits. The only reason I take medication is it interferes with my present job. Ultimately I want to get a job where the ADD is a benefit rather than a hindrance. I need a job that is not working directly with customers because they are a constant distraction. I need a job where I can concentrate fully on one or two things. That is why I am going back to college and study graphic arts or something creative. Then the ADHD will actually help.

Xerxes
07-30-05, 02:24 AM
I will say it again: meditation does wonders for concentration.

lixluke
07-30-05, 06:10 PM
I will say it again: meditation does wonders for concentration.
I fall asleep.

Watcher
08-08-05, 08:22 AM
Why is this even considered a disorder?
Where do you get it?
Knowing how the brain is wired, I have a hard time beleiving the brain can get some disease like this that would affect concentration.

My only comment is that ADHD isn't an acquired problem so much as an inherited neurological characteristic, so you don't "get" it at some point in your life, typically.

I would also speculate that 100 years ago ADHD didn't matter very much. It is only because we live in a highly technological, fast-paced, high stress modern environment that ADHD-type brains struggle to deal with the continuous overload of sensory input that we take for granted.

Ever see the film Koyaanisqatsi? It portrays this constrast very effectively. The focus of the movie is "life out of balance". My theory is that our brains are not well adapted to dealing with the highly altered environment that we have created through engineering and automation, so, we have a proliferation of mental health problems like ADHD. Just a theory.

river-wind
08-08-05, 05:52 PM
The best description of ADHD I have run into is this:
"Everyone sees their life as a TV. You can watch a show, then change the channel, then go back. Whenever you want.
People with ADD, though, have 50 TV's, and most of the time, they are all tuned to different channels.
Sometimes, all the TV's are set to the same channel, and the person can hyper-concentrate, to the point where the world around them doesn't exist.
People with ADD/ADHD tend to be of above average intelligence - the trick is learning to harness that intelligence and creativity" (rough quote from a shrink I saw in Middle School)


I'm with Xerxes - meditation has been shown to significantly improve both the overall attitude and success of the subjects involved. To the point where fMRI studies of ADD patients showed an improvement of focused blood flow during times of extended consentration.
After 8 years of medication (Tofranil+Seldane, Paxil, Welbutrine, and more), I got tired of being dependent on something else to be functional. I went to college, and refused my medication - I was going to succed on my own, or fail (much to the pain of my mother).
After much hard work, and many failures along the way, I did succeed in graduating.

In my situation, the meditation is what allowed me to become functional enough to hold down a job and buy a house. Medication allowed me to be centered enough to learn meditation.

so I don't think medication is bad, though you need to decide if you are ok with taking it for the rest of your life.
It may be that you will fare much better by taking it. Or it may be a required step towards both being functional and independant through other means.

-----------------
cool skill - you should try meditation mid-morning, in a sitting position. Lying down or meditating early in the morning/late at night will just make your body used to falling alseep in the middle of your practice.


edit: late edit to clean up language

Blandnuts
08-10-05, 06:29 PM
I'm having a hard time taking all this in. It's seems to be more of a fad lately, with more and more people being diagnosed with add/adhd. It's almost as bad as this whole depression push I see on tv. I think there are very few people who actually have this problem (if it truly exists).



Edit: Also, one with add/adhd is more intelligent because? I know I always did better in something when I wasn't bored with it.

river-wind
08-16-05, 02:35 PM
I did a comparison study about 10 years ago, and found that while it appeared that people in more wealthy areas were over-diagnosed (more inkdividuals/1000 were diagnosed that medical research on the subject would expect), the nation as a whole is very much under-diagnosed. This was an undergrad study, and I donít have the file anymore, so youíll have to take my word for it (or just ignore me ;) )

I know many people, adult and child, who are blatantly ADD/ADHD, but are unaware of it. Iíve also know perfectly fine children who have been put on heavy doses of medication because (IMO) their parents were to selfish to put any effort into parenting.

One of the main reasons for this separation between disease and diagnosis is that there have always been people of this type, there just wasn't a name for it before. Now that we can call it something, 25% of the nation suddenly says "Hey! That sounds like me!" For some people, this is a grand realization, and big help for them. For others, itís a cop-out.

Because of the lack of a simple Yes or No test to diagnose ADD (doctors use personal behavior anecdotes and short observational sessions to determine if a person has ADD or not), there is no easy way to know who has ADD, though there has been a large number of studies which have shown that there are physical and chemical differences between ADD and ĎNormalí brains.

It should also be noted that it is a misconception that someone is either "ADD" or "Normal". Everyone has varying degrees of ability in the areas effected by ADHD and its sibling ailments. Some people are so far off the scale to disorganised that they cannot function w/o some form of medication to help balance out the chemical generation and use in the brain.

Many people claim ADD or ADHD for sympathy, or for the purpose of medicating themselves or their children in a lazy attempt to make their lives easier. This is, IMO, terrible. Not only does it make them dependant on a drug to be functional, it also supports the worsening state of The Medicated Westerner.
It also takes away from the valid problem that people who truly have ADD deal with, because it makes people question the reality of it.


As to your edit: I don't think that a person with ADD/ADHD is more intelligent *because* of having ADD - they, in my personal experience, tend to be more intelligent. Not because of the ADD, but the other way around. My personal feeling is that there is a non-causal correlation - the more intelligent an individual, the more likely the person to have multiple active thoughts going at once. Hence, the likelihood of that person appearing to "bounce from one topic to another at random", and having trouble focusing, goes up considerably. Also, the likelihood of a particular thought, regardless of that thoughtís importance, to get lost in the jumble is astronomical.
They are just thinking about more than everyone else - their "bouncing" is just the little bits of all the simultaneous thought processes that escape to the world outside their own minds.

BRUTUS1964: I meant to bring this up earlier, but here is something I found exceedingly useful, esp. in college.
The brain has two parts to it Ė the data itself, and the path to access the data. In other words, youíve got an office assistant and a filing cabinet up there. You hand a file off, and the assistant files it away.
Later, you ask for that file, and the Assistant canít find it. Itís not where itís supposed to be! It still exists somewhere, but there is no easy way to locate it.
M files are under A, Q files are in the F section, some files are on the floor. The worst part is, you didnít make the mess, nor can you fix it yourself. Not only is finding files hard, but itís very easy to forget what youíre trying to find, when youíre ĎAí section is full of random tidbits from everywhere else.
SOOOOOÖÖthe trick is to file the more important things away 50 times. Basically, force the assistant to do the job enough times that, statistically, heíll file everything right just by chance.

ďAprilís birthday on the 10th. Aprilís birthday on the 10th. Aprilís birthday on the tenth. I want sushi for lunch. No! Bad. Aprilís birthday on the 10th. Aprilís birthdayÖ..Ē so on and so forth. This method is very effective for me.

Russ723
09-25-05, 06:51 PM
I know this is an old thread. Oh well

I have severe ADD.

I usually repeat to myself focus...focus.....focus... then I'll catch myself thinking about something else.

It feels like there is lost time between when I told myself to focus & when I catch myself thinking about something else.

"I was trying to focus when did I stop!?!"

It is frustrating.

This s why I rarely respond to long threads. Even ones I like.

Crucifixor
09-26-05, 10:33 PM
Why is this even considered a disorder?
Where do you get it?
Knowing how the brain is wired, I have a hard time beleiving the brain can get some disease like this that would affect concentration.


a common misconception about adhd is that it needs a dysfunction in the brain to exist. this being true, i may as well elaborate. adhd is a chemical imbalance in the cerebral cortex... this is either over stimulating or fatiguing, regardless, it leads to dysfunction.

another issue with adhd is that it is an LD (learning disability). It screws up the process of reading, and often writing with similar if not definitely linked to dysgraphia.

Crucifixor
09-26-05, 10:36 PM
just so you know, im studying psychology at STU, been doing prestudy for a while and I am working with their students with disabilities administration; because i have ADHD-C and Disgraphia. It sucks hardcore... I even clench up when i play intense games because my motor functions are severely debilitated. :rolleyes:

duendy
09-27-05, 03:37 AM
i know wat i am about to say may cause you to get angry, turn off, challenge...whatever, but i want you to know i MEAN it.
'ADHD' is a pseudo disease, concocted by a greedy evil indutry called the pharmaceutical industry whose corruption involves the establishment it sponsors, psychiatry and psychology and all teir branches, which are proliferating in culture all the time.

ADHD is a total bogus disease. there is no proof whatsoever, scientifically, to PROVEit is a disease.

what it IS is a label being put on more and more children--and adults--which stigmatizes them, and poisons their growing organisms. fukin evil

it is SOCIAL CONTROL! moods, differences of behaviour, are being pathologisied by elite groups of so-called professionlals round a table.

THER IS NO PROOF ADHD IS A PHYSICAL DISEASE. so get wise and dont believe those people who tell you otherwise!

Baron Max
09-27-05, 12:14 PM
Duendy, I agree with you. But in today's cultural environment, we invent "diseases" in order to explain certain behavior and/or social problems that we can't understand. Then we spend billions of taxpayer money to "find the cure". It's like a giant and neverending circle ...economic circle, perhaps?

We've also invented a society which is reluctant to blame the individual for any of his/her actions. So inventing a new "disease" is another way of deflecting the blame for people's actions. A woman kills her newborn infant, so instead of calling it murder, we call if post-partum depression and let her live .....so she can do it again!!

Maybe we just don't have enough to do to keep us occupied?

Baron Max

spidergoat
09-27-05, 12:53 PM
No offense, buddy, but that explains why you are a rabid republican, you don't have the attention to follow subjects through. Their short sound bites, catchy unthinking slogans and groupthink would appeal to someone with a short attention span.

wesmorris
09-27-05, 02:10 PM
lol.

spidergoat, you're an arrogant dipshit sometimes man. what an ass.

c20H25N3o
09-27-05, 02:27 PM
When you are off the meds, what is it that you want to concentrate on? What were the meaningless pursuits that your mind wandered off to? Were they meaningless by your standards or someone elses standards? If 'allowed' to think of them in 'any' terms at all without predudice, would those pursuits be meaningless or not?

Thanks

c20

Roman
09-27-05, 02:42 PM
Good to see you back, acid.

wesmorris
09-27-05, 03:00 PM
It's just too much hypocracy that leftist dickweeds that all think alike talk about how "rabid republicans" are republibots eating "groupthink and catchy unthinking slogans" for hate-fuel, while being absolutely BLIND to their own indulgance in leftomatic trash of the exact same nature. Ah, superiority - how blind yet vain is thy nature.

Kotoko
09-27-05, 04:16 PM
You won't believe in ADHD, or ADD until you've either had it yourself, or had your kid sit next to a kid in school who had it. You remember the one kid that couldn't sit still, would constantly be tapping, or bouncing or kicking your chair. Not out of spite, but out of the inability to control his spastic nature. We called them spazzes back in school, and usually put them in special education. Now we can have a better way and help them find their place in the world. To aid them in succeeding.

There is no such physical disease as "bipolar disorder" either, is there? And homosexuality is still just a sexual perversion. No scitzophrenia, or depression. It's all just people trying to get out of life by distracting everyone for their attention.

Have some fucking compassion, you sorry bunch of short bus rejects. You are all just jealous that no one has diagnosed and cured stupidity yet.

spidergoat
09-27-05, 04:45 PM
Hey, I sympathize, I have Asperger's Syndrome, a form of autism.

duendy
09-27-05, 05:05 PM
kotoko......listen to what i am saying: yes..people do show, express, mainfest certian behaviours deemed unsuitable by tis culture. also some forms of behaviour is distress etc. agreed. but for the shrinks patronized bybig pharma to DIAGNOSE a physical disease when there is no scientific proof is fasle pseudo and WRONG
i am NOT against people who seek so-called medication IF tey want it. but it is not that easy is it when people are propaganderized they are biologically ill.....get me. and are COERCED to take medication which is toxic

With children who have no knowing of the game being played--they re stuck in. having no rights--i is evil to impose this money making scam on them. cant you see this??...where teir parents often are treatened to put their kids on this shit, lied to, kids are stigmatized, and left believing they are diseased

i dont have to await a postive of negative reponse from you. I am telling you it is wrong

Kotoko
09-29-05, 11:40 AM
No, I agree. People are over medicated, and over diagnosed right now. But that doesn't mean that there aren't people who don't need the medication and don't have a serious problem that isn't caused by themselves.

I think depression is also widely over medicated and over diagnosed.

But I think that people who claim that "it's all in their head" are fucking morons. If that doesn't include you, then don't feel insulted.

Blandnuts
09-29-05, 04:55 PM
c20H25N3o, I too wonder what is flooding their thoughts...

Abnack
09-29-05, 08:14 PM
If it's true that "ADHD sufferers" are calmed by stimulants such as amphetamines , why then, isn't this supposed paradox ultilized in diagnosis ?

Presently , the test for ADHD relies on filling out questionaires and such . Why not take it into the realm of objective consideration instead of guesswork and subjective variables ?

Quantum Quack
09-29-05, 09:56 PM
Just as an aside:
When reading the coments to this thread it occurred to me that we as humans some how think of ourselves as in-destructable, like how teenagers tend to think.

We think that we can increase teh pace of life with all our technology and pressures with out experiencing some sort of fall out.

An example of this could be the was the native aboriginal population suffered when white man arrived and changed their lives forever here in Australia.

To think that such changes to their lifestyle can be somehow easilly accomodated with out serious problems occuring is I feel naive.

It is amazing that every time a new technology comes online we think that as a collective this is going to change our lives without some serious outcomes.

For example the arrival of black and white TV and the ramifications just this innovation made to social structure.

To me ADD could be a product of a form of culture shock, where the human genome is not always able to cope with sudden change. Where our intellectual evolution leaps ahead of our emotional evolution.

[ the now ended Cold war could be said to have been a symptom of sudden change ]

It is little wonder that some of us will suffer from these significant changes in livestyle.

It is also amazing that someone can honestly discuss a problem and then see other posters attempt to tell that poster that he is part of a societal scam or fad.
As with any thing there is always an element of fad, or fashion in beliefs but to suggest that this applies to all is I feel to be an over reaction.
Any way just some thoughts...

BTW thanks so much Brutus for sharing your experience, I am sure it will go a long way in affording others a better understanding of this condition, what ever you want to call it.

Kotoko
09-30-05, 08:44 AM
If it's true that "ADHD sufferers" are calmed by stimulants such as amphetamines , why then, isn't this supposed paradox ultilized in diagnosis ?

Presently , the test for ADHD relies on filling out questionaires and such . Why not take it into the realm of objective consideration instead of guesswork and subjective variables ?

They've been trying to study it for years, and they know for sure that the activity in the frontal lobe for people with ADHD differs from that of a normal person, but it also mimics other neurological disorders so iti can't be a difinitive litmus test for ADHD. They also know that it is genetic, and they are working on isolating the gene. All of this is theory, and it is why people think that it doesn't exist... Without solid proof, there will always be people that assume what they shouldn't.

However, people with ADHD will respond favourably to Ritalin, and people who do not have it will take the medicine and become out of control. But depending on a number of physical factors, it can take anywhere from a day to a week or more to actually see the right effects.

Ophiolite
09-30-05, 09:00 AM
Duendy, the thematic content of many of your posts is clear, but the root is undefined. So, I ask a personal question: what mental illness were you diagnosed with that you refuse to accept (as is your right) the reality of?

duendy
09-30-05, 09:02 AM
They've been trying to study it for years, and they know for sure that the activity in the frontal lobe for people with ADHD differs from that of a normal person, but it also mimics other neurological disorders so iti can't be a difinitive litmus test for ADHD.

me:: WHo is it that 'knows this'? give me names, etc please?

They also know that it is genetic, and they are working on isolating the gene.

me:: again, WHO is it that is claiming this?

All of this is theory, and it is why people think that it doesn't exist... Without solid proof, there will always be people that assume what they shouldn't.

me:: look. theory IS theory until it beCOMES proven. till then it is theory. get me?

However, people with ADHD will respond favourably to Ritalin, and people who do not have it will take the medicine and become out of control. But depending on a number of physical factors, it can take anywhere from a day to a week or more to actually see the right effects.
no, you are still stuck in this myth aren't you?

duendy
09-30-05, 09:04 AM
Duendy, the thematic content of many of your posts is clear, but the root is undefined. So, I ask a personal question: what mental illness were you diagnosed with that you refuse to accept (as is your right) the reality of?
yes. it is a personal question isn't it?

duendy
09-30-05, 09:13 AM
quantum
quack...you raise some really interesting things for sure

you are damn right. how taken for granted is the brutal system we are all encaged in....where really only the truly cut thrat bastards get on....by cut throat means
and for that action we grill our kids in the prison factories--aschools. more like open prisons.
so whats the parent to do?
home education? but realy that is for the middel classes kid isn't it? wht about th struggling single parent in some rough housing estate hey? who HAS to do do two jobs to keep afloat. THEy are te parents the fkers will threaten and throw in jail here in UK anyway) if their kids ply truant dont go to school)....if that aint fascism what is?

so they are in school, full of energy, and autorities dont want that....some PAREENTSdont wan it cause theres no space. someare terrified of lettin em play out cause of fear of al sorts etc. so they too cant cope with someenergetic kid all over the fixtures amd fittins

so. what. DRUG them? isthat our friggin answer? for fuks sake, cause of some bogus poxy pseudosciehce which is helpin make big pharma evn more big n evil than it already is--if thats possib;le

what hae we become when we allow this?...which also mans mindfukin them wit te phony 'just say no' war on drugs'...the whole thing is a huge fukin evil crappy stinkin mess

wesmorris
09-30-05, 09:56 AM
it's sad that your perspective is so hateful and disrespectful of any perspective other than your own. you apparently can't fathom anything beyond your own disgust. why are you so self-involved?

your entire analysis is based solely on your digust. how are your venomous whinings in any way constructive?

Kotoko
09-30-05, 10:16 AM
http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc99/12_4_99/fob7.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/04/000417095552.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/08/980814063830.htm


WASHINGTON, D.C. August 3 -- For the first time, research directly points to a dopamine production defect in adults with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). The brain chemical findings could lead to more effective treatments for these patients who are inattentive, impulsive, and hyperactive.

Previous evidence suggested that a dopamine malfunction occurs in those with ADHD. For example, drugs that enhance dopamine function appear to quell the disorder's symptoms. "Our finding, however, is the first direct evidence of a targeted dopamine deficit in adults with ADHD," says the study's lead author, Monique Ernst, MD, PhD, Senior Staff Fellow at the National Institutes of Health. "We found that the activity of an enzyme involved in the production of the chemical dopamine is lower than normal in a specific brain area."

Ernst's study, funded by the National Institutes of Health, is published in the August 1 issue of The Journal of Neuroscience.

Myths my ass. Their researched science > than you and your ignorant belief.

duendy
09-30-05, 10:27 AM
it's sad that your perspective is so hateful and disrespectful of any perspective other than your own. you apparently can't fathom anything beyond your own disgust. why are you so self-involved?

me::: why am i involved?? millions of our children are being drugged by an evil scam
conglomerate which is based on bogus sciece, and which damages their bodis and minds andyu ask me why i am involved?

know why you are involved here. to try and wind me up...right? right. wont work

your entire analysis is based solely on your digust. how are your venomous whinings in any way constructive?

so whaddya wanna do?...drug me cause i am showing human emotion...??
i get the feelin given half the chance you would like that..... no?

duendy
09-30-05, 10:34 AM
http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc99/12_4_99/fob7.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/04/000417095552.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/08/980814063830.htm



Myths my ass. Their researched science > than you and your ignorant belief.

it is still te same reductionist scam going on cant you see?
they are bascially claiming te all of a sudden millions of cildren are defective and NEED teir drug...which THEY can SUPPLY. get it?? huh do ya

look i challenge you kokoto, but i feel you are a tough chalenge by your attitude
(tho i can appreciate u feel that about me too)...i challenge you to get in touch wit someone i know, and aks hm straight aout this. IF you really want to find out that it. if for whatever reason you dont, and choose to believe te scam merchants, then tat's tat right?...so...you up for it or what?

wesmorris
09-30-05, 10:48 AM
so whaddya wanna do?...drug me cause i am showing human emotion...??
i get the feelin given half the chance you would like that..... no?

Why do I want to drug you? I don't give a shit if you're drugged up or not. I care about results. Does your analysis make any sense, or is it just you, crying about things that offend your delicate sensibilities?

Your delicate sensibilities are YOUR business, but you project them as if others should relate. I don't relate to your hate, and it seems that's all you have to offer. You show no capacity for comprehension, understanding, analysis, problem solving, etc. You're just here to bitch and moan I guess. I don't think that does anything to teach or learn and is as such, a waste of hard-drive space.

But then again, of course you're free to do so and I'm free to point out how it's a waste.

I think you're hurting yourself with it actually, and will continue to flounder in confused hatred until your dying day because you can't control your mind. In fact, it seems you reject any attempt to control it as "prison". You don't take responsibility for yourself, quoting "human emotion" as the cause of the hate you spread. Your attitude is cancerous. You're a perma-victim.

People who see themselves as victims make me sick.

Kotoko
09-30-05, 10:48 AM
Look, fuck your stupid conspiracy theories. Are you telling me that all these scientists are lying for the benefit of US Pharmeceuticals? You obviously need to be medicated, Sir. I posted valid information from reputable resources, and yet you want me to talk to one guy who thinks he knows everything? All of the studies I cited are about ADULTS, not children and they are valid scientific studies. Try reading them first, and try injecting a little common sense into your wild accusations and you'll see what I am saying.

Until you become rational, I don't see a point in continuing.

c20H25N3o
09-30-05, 10:54 AM
Roman: Good to see you back acid.

Me: Ah i missed the place :) The venom, the irreverance, all the stuff that makes you feel alive.

But back to the point. Let us suppose for one moment that the person is a hyper-creative whose thought processes do not deal with the mundane. Is it too much to assume that the hyper-creative (if allowed to pursue their interests with support and encouragement) could not actually prove to be a huge benefit to the community?
Why cant it be viewed as a positive thing? I know a little lad who has aspergers. He is a really lovely kid who sufferes needlessly because people are frustrated that he doesnt 'perform' in the way they expect him too. He became massivly withdrawn and saw himself as a failure. I gave him a harmonica and taught him to play a bit of guitar.
6 months down the line and all I can say is that the kid is a total musical genius - makes me sound like a flippin amatuer and ive been playing for some 19 years.
He is much happier for it too because now people look at him in awe rather than as a 'problem' that needs to be solved.

I hate the way people get labeled because their thought processes are different.

peace

c20

Ophiolite
09-30-05, 03:29 PM
Kotoko, Duendy is locked into a self obssessed diatribe against them: the patriarchal, power hungry, science oriented, manipulative, big business, monsters who run and ruin our lives. Wes Morris has nailed Duendy's problem pretty thoroughly in his earlier post. Offended by what s/he sees as lack of compassion in others s/he fails to recognise the offense and insensitivity she brings to her own superficial, distorted analysis.
I hate seeing minds go to waste.

duendy
10-01-05, 04:04 AM
Why do I want to drug you?

me:::duh!

I don't give a shit if you're drugged up or not. I care about results. Does your analysis make any sense, or is it just you, crying about things that offend your delicate sensibilities?

me::: how would YOU know i was talkin sense...YOU dont make sense

Your delicate sensibilities are YOUR business, but you project them as if others should relate. I don't relate to your hate, and it seems that's all you have to offer.

me:: errr dont see how it is 'hate' being angry about children being abused?.....and, pactice what yer preach. from past dealings with your opinions you seem brimming with hate dude

You show no capacity for comprehension, understanding, analysis, problem solving, etc. You're just here to bitch and moan I guess.

me::hahaha....look in the mirror when you say that you projectionist you

I don't think that does anything to teach or learn and is as such, a waste of hard-drive space.

me:::no one is forcing you to read what i say

But then again, of course you're free to do so and I'm free to point out how it's a waste.

me::exactly

I think you're hurting yourself with it actually, and will continue to flounder in confused hatred until your dying day because you can't control your mind. In fact, it seems you reject any attempt to control it as "prison". You don't take responsibility for yourself, quoting "human emotion" as the cause of the hate you spread. Your attitude is cancerous. You're a perma-victim.

me::: jeeeez you get funnier and more ironic. worry bout your sorry self mister

People who see themselves as victims make me sick.

so...be sick. just not over me

duendy
10-01-05, 04:12 AM
Look, fuck your stupid conspiracy theories.

me::: behave yourself...dont be rude

Are you telling me that all these scientists are lying for the benefit of US Pharmeceuticals?

me:: Yes i am

You obviously need to be medicated, Sir.

me::: like i am gonna take a diagnosis of you...?

I posted valid information from reputable resources, and yet you want me to talk to one guy who thinks he knows everything?

me::i dont want you to do anything. i asked you if you were up fer it....dont really give a hoot what you do to be honest

All of the studies I cited are about ADULTS, not children and they are valid scientific studies.

me:: i have aleady informed you that the science is totally bogus. but yo dont wont listen. you trust these pseudoscienctists. soooo, take the fukin pills then

Try reading them first, and try injecting a little common sense into your wild accusations and you'll see what I am saying.

me:::are you a scientist?


Until you become rational, I don't see a point in continuing.

i offered you to talk wit someone very much more experienced about tis subject. you declined and also are vry bloddy rude. so, fuk you

duendy
10-01-05, 04:21 AM
Kotoko, Duendy is locked into a self obssessed diatribe against them: the patriarchal, power hungry, science oriented, manipulative, big business, monsters who run and ruin our lives.

me::: true---apart from the 'self obsessed diatribe bit...clever knockers

Wes Morris has nailed Duendy's problem pretty thoroughly in his earlier post. Offended by what s/he sees as lack of compassion in others s/he fails to recognise the offense and insensitivity she brings to her own superficial, distorted analysis.
I hate seeing minds go to waste.

well you must be permanently depressed then if self-reflective!

look dude. do you care about ANYthing??

all i ever hear coming from your busy fingers is judgmental remarks about other posters,especially how they use language. sort yer own shit out before trowin it at others

ok....neeeext

Ophiolite
10-01-05, 04:33 AM
I am not a dude. I care about a great many things as you would have been able to discern if you had brought one ounce of the sensitivity, compassion and empathy that you claim to possess to reading and thinking about some of the posts I have made.

I shall always make judgemental remarks about racist bastards such as JB.
I shall always make judgemental remarks about misguided enthusiasts such as btimsah.
I shall always make judgemental remarks about the seriously loopy like Dwayne D.Rabon
I shall always make judgemental remarks about self rightneous pontificators like you Duendy.

My shit has been sorted out for a long time now, so I know exactly which colour, density and texture to throw in any direction.

duendy
10-01-05, 04:44 AM
I am not a dude.

me::yeah i know...your a bitch!

I care about a great many things as you would have been able to discern if you had brought one ounce of the sensitivity, compassion and empathy that you claim to possess to reading and thinking about some of the posts I have made.

me::ditto!

I shall always make judgemental remarks about racist bastards such as JB.

me::: most intelligent thing you've said in the last half hour!

I shall always make judgemental remarks about misguided enthusiasts such as btimsah.

mew::: who????

I shall always make judgemental remarks about the seriously loopy like Dwayne D.Rabon

me::: hmmmmmmmm

I shall always make judgemental remarks about self rightneous pontificators like you Duendy.

me::: that's 'righteous' deary........an as i aid to another. LOOK in the mirror when you say that


My shit has been sorted out for a long time now, so I know exactly which colour, density and texture to throw in any direction.

very nice to hear about your shit......not

sony
10-01-05, 07:20 AM
*shakes head*

duendy, no disrespect, but you're not making any sense. This thread was so interesting to begin with(Riverwind), and you're turning it into shit. Please stop.

Imagine how annoyed I was reading this that I actually had to come and post *gasp* :)

wesmorris
10-01-05, 10:34 AM
And I'm pretty well shocked to note duendy's purported birthday. 50 years old and the mind of a spoiled, pissy teen. Arrested development.

duendy
10-01-05, 10:38 AM
*shakes head*

me::: mind it dont drop off!

duendy, no disrespect, but you're not making any sense. This thread was so interesting to begin with(Riverwind), and you're turning it into shit.

me::: your not a friend of him--
es whats is name is yu?

Please stop.

me:::or esle what?

Imagine how annoyed I was reading this that I actually had to come and post *gasp* :)

yer havin a larrrf aint cha

read the rest idiot.

duendy
10-01-05, 10:43 AM
And I'm pretty well shocked to note duendy's purported birthday. 50 years old and the mind of a spoiled, pissy teen. Arrested development.
is that yer mate??

aso you think you have me sussed. you have come to tis thread qith aboslutely nothing to say about te actual subject have you. too bizzy tryng to get one back on me by some past shit right. cause i have challenged you in the past and you big ego donna like it....am igettin close

now ---quit all this ad hominem. what the fluck do you think about...'ADHD' and millions of kids being drugged by the big pharma shrink cartel government

huh?....got anything at all to sa bout it. or you just gonna continue bitchin?

Ophiolite
10-01-05, 11:21 AM
I've addressed this point with you before Duendy. Are the drug companies there to make money. Yes, no shit. They are. How can they best do that? Get this Mr anti-establishment, anti-government, anti-anything about the west the east or anything in between, they do that by delivering things of value. Do you understand value? Do you have any concept of value? Do you actually wallow in the ignorance that thinks value is the same as money. Take a basic accounting course you uneducated moron. The first thing you will be taught that money is a convenient way of assigning quantitative aspects of value to a qualitative concept. Accountants (at least the good ones) fully understand what they are counting and that is is symbolic of only one aspect of the value produced by culture. Are you so devoid of intellect that you do not understand that simple fact?
And so the drug companies produce something of value in order to acquire little greenbacks. For me the value they deliver are little pills, which taken every day, are keeping me alive and alert and productive and able to argue the toss with short sighted nihilistic cretins such as yourself. But to you they are a vast conspiracy. So lets tear it down Duendy. Let's end the tyranny of those shadowy figures, the patriachs and the scientists and the politicians and the conspiratorial cliques. Tear it down. Not only will that deprive them of their power, but I'll be dead in a year, which will be good for you - two birds with one stone.
You addressed it to wesmorris, but I'll reply for myself, you bet your sweet ass I am going to continue bitching all the time you spout superannuated twaddle.
I have half a mind (see I'll even set up opportunities for you to have humorous retort) to call in on your Manchester home or wherever the hell you live and argue this to its natural conclusion, face to face, but I fear you may be as incoherent in person as on the net.

duendy
10-01-05, 01:47 PM
look. i hav e no concern for you taking pills. got it? or any adult IFthey so choose. do i need to repeat this or has it sunk in?

what i am on about its this: thke science pertaining to show that 'mental illness'--in rthis thread qwe are talking abou the so-called disease/disorder 'ADHD'- IS FALSE. do you now understand....!...you apparently have chosen your poison. children cant. people misinfrmed cant, ahd those coerced cant. and THOSE are the ones i am speaking up for.

and one more ting. keep your abusive attitude outta my face.

MetaKron
10-01-05, 02:20 PM
Kotoko, Duendy is locked into a self obssessed diatribe against them: the patriarchal, power hungry, science oriented, manipulative, big business, monsters who run and ruin our lives. Wes Morris has nailed Duendy's problem pretty thoroughly in his earlier post. Offended by what s/he sees as lack of compassion in others s/he fails to recognise the offense and insensitivity she brings to her own superficial, distorted analysis.
I hate seeing minds go to waste.

Ophiolite, you and Wes Morris are full of crap. Duendy is right on the money even if he can't spell it. Wes Morris's "you make me sick" is the verbiage used by an abuser of human beings, in fact, a bully.

The humanoid monsters that ruin our lives do in fact exist. Your denial is both pathetic and helps to reveal their existence and their agenda. All this garbage you try to slide by, as if it takes a genius to analyze your kind of rhetoric? Your kind hasn't upgraded from "we're right and you're stupid and if you don't believe us we'll kick your heads in and shut you up."

I can tell you exactly what happens in a couple of paragraphs. A child who shows some real brilliance goes to school and tries to do his schoolwork as he has been ordered. He believes that this is for his own good. Since he is learning things, which is natural for him to do, it looks to him like it really is for his own good. He believes that education is what is going to make him able to have a life of his own some day.

Then when he is doing his schoolwork, the class bully, who is much more bored than he is, starts stage-whispering his name, getting him to turn his head to look, then looks the other way and pretends he didn't say anything. He waits for the victim, and this person is a chosen victim, to go back to his work and does it again. Eventually he does it with spitwads and paper clips. Even if the teacher knows this is going on, she usually lets this continue and jumps on the victim if he makes any sound or moves. They always escalate this abuse until the victim is forced to respond, sometimes literally with a bloody mark or bruise.

The VICTIM is trained to respond hysterically to the slightest stimuli of certain types and he is given no choice in the matter. The people who are supposed to protect the developing child actually help damage him, and this treatment does cause damage. This changes brain chemistry. It is dangerous and morally wrong to use drugs to force that brain chemistry into something "acceptable" without addressing the real issues that an ADD or ADHD child has, like DELIBERATE ATTEMPTS TO DESTROY HIM. All we are doing is drugging the child so that he will accept more undeserved torture, punishment, and labelling. Hell, the only reason I can even spell now is because they didn't start drugging me until I was 16.

You, Ophiolite, and Wes Morris have revealed yourselves as bullies here, who are willing to continue the victimization of people right now. It contributes to the proof that bullies never, ever stop. You deliberately hurt Dwendy for posting here, and you used the forms of threats and taunting that bullies use. You two should be neutered. Your genes are of horribly negative value to the human race. I don't even think of you as human. Please place yourself within range of my fists sometime. I can use the exercise.

Quantum Quack
10-01-05, 06:39 PM
Ophiolite, you and Wes Morris are full of crap. Duendy is right on the money even if he can't spell it. Wes Morris's "you make me sick" is the verbiage used by an abuser of human beings, in fact, a bully.

The humanoid monsters that ruin our lives do in fact exist. Your denial is both pathetic and helps to reveal their existence and their agenda. All this garbage you try to slide by, as if it takes a genius to analyze your kind of rhetoric? Your kind hasn't upgraded from "we're right and you're stupid and if you don't believe us we'll kick your heads in and shut you up."

I can tell you exactly what happens in a couple of paragraphs. A child who shows some real brilliance goes to school and tries to do his schoolwork as he has been ordered. He believes that this is for his own good. Since he is learning things, which is natural for him to do, it looks to him like it really is for his own good. He believes that education is what is going to make him able to have a life of his own some day.

Then when he is doing his schoolwork, the class bully, who is much more bored than he is, starts stage-whispering his name, getting him to turn his head to look, then looks the other way and pretends he didn't say anything. He waits for the victim, and this person is a chosen victim, to go back to his work and does it again. Eventually he does it with spitwads and paper clips. Even if the teacher knows this is going on, she usually lets this continue and jumps on the victim if he makes any sound or moves. They always escalate this abuse until the victim is forced to respond, sometimes literally with a bloody mark or bruise.

The VICTIM is trained to respond hysterically to the slightest stimuli of certain types and he is given no choice in the matter. The people who are supposed to protect the developing child actually help damage him, and this treatment does cause damage. This changes brain chemistry. It is dangerous and morally wrong to use drugs to force that brain chemistry into something "acceptable" without addressing the real issues that an ADD or ADHD child has, like DELIBERATE ATTEMPTS TO DESTROY HIM. All we are doing is drugging the child so that he will accept more undeserved torture, punishment, and labelling. Hell, the only reason I can even spell now is because they didn't start drugging me until I was 16.

You, Ophiolite, and Wes Morris have revealed yourselves as bullies here, who are willing to continue the victimization of people right now. It contributes to the proof that bullies never, ever stop. You deliberately hurt Dwendy for posting here, and you used the forms of threats and taunting that bullies use. You two should be neutered. Your genes are of horribly negative value to the human race. I don't even think of you as human. Please place yourself within range of my fists sometime. I can use the exercise.MetaKron,

It is prety obvious you have a passion about this subject and well ......so you should.

It is true I think that the benefits of meical science are a double edged sword.
On one hand it grants us humans an ability to deal with extreme problems and offer assistance to those in desparate need of help and on the other it gives us the ability to be lazy and use this medical intervention as a first choice instead of a last resort choice.
It is undoubtably true that in many many cases medication is used way to easilly. The child becoming an object of abuse by medication due to the parents and society being just to lazy to do the work that some children need.

So I agree in the main thrust of your post. Yes...people tend to go the easiest path, and how easy is it to just give a troubled child a dose of mind altering hormones.

I suppose it is how humanity likes to shift responsibility from themsleves to others who put a shingle on the door that reads "doctor".

So advances in diagnosis and medications needs to be met with this lazy streak in miind.

One day they will create a "Happiness" pill and very soon after every one will be taking it simply because it avoids the hard work needed to achieve happiness. [ I am referring to something a bit more effective than Prozac]

Life is never easy but we certainly want it to be.... :)

MetaKron
10-01-05, 07:21 PM
Difficult I can handle, Quantum Quack. What I can't handle is when people from just about day one do every trick in the book and invent new ones to prevent any of my efforts from bearing fruit. I can't handle it when the conspiracy actually does exist and insists on proving it to me.

duendy
10-02-05, 03:20 AM
Difficult I can handle, Quantum Quack. What I can't handle is when people from just about day one do every trick in the book and invent new ones to prevent any of my efforts from bearing fruit. I can't handle it when the conspiracy actually does exist and insists on proving it to me.

HEY Metakron...Thanks for the support. You have analyzed the recent situation here brilliantly--apart from me not being able to spell. i do do typos and mess about with language...so.
You seem from what i gather tobe quite young? Yet your insight is really mature. great to meet you

Ophiolite
10-02-05, 06:41 AM
Well, Metakron. I cannot argue with you. I may have been posting off topic, but you have certainly missed the thrust of what I was saying. That is regrettable, for you might have found we have more in common than you think.
If you live in the UK I shall be happy to place myself in the range of your fists at any time. You may have been using rhetoric, but I am quite ready to allow you to go after it for real - with no physical defense on my part.
Duendy has an agenda (you might say, who hasn't) this agenda I have been following on and off for almost one year. I don't agree with Duendy's views on many things. I find them distorted, and filled with hate. I don't like hate. You might say I hate hate. I have attacked and shall continue to attack Duendy's views, for I believe them to be counterproductinve and damaging to Duendy.
I intially tried reason and logic and was greeted with personal attacks and invective from Duendy. [You might want to visit some of those posts and see who was bullying whom.] I am but a weak human: I responded, on occasion, in kind. Duendy seems well able to look after themselves.
Thank you for placing me in the same category as wesmorris. His posts are typically reasoned, apposite and insightful. They are also, from time to time passionate. You do not Mekatron, have the market cornered in passionate belief. Some of us do not suffer fools or foolish thoughts gladly. As I noted in an earlier post I shall attack subjects, and individuals, I consider deserving of attack.
My offer stands to provide you with an opportunity to find me within range of your fists at some time. pm me for details. You might find you like me, and if you don't you can get some exercise with your fists.

jack54
10-02-05, 07:27 AM
MetaKron,

It is prety obvious you have a passion about this subject and well ......so you should.

It is true I think that the benefits of meical science are a double edged sword.
On one hand it grants us humans an ability to deal with extreme problems and offer assistance to those in desparate need of help and on the other it gives us the ability to be lazy and use this medical intervention as a first choice instead of a last resort choice.
It is undoubtably true that in many many cases medication is used way to easilly. The child becoming an object of abuse by medication due to the parents and society being just to lazy to do the work that some children need.

So I agree in the main thrust of your post. Yes...people tend to go the easiest path, and how easy is it to just give a troubled child a dose of mind altering hormones.

I suppose it is how humanity likes to shift responsibility from themsleves to others who put a shingle on the door that reads "doctor".

So advances in diagnosis and medications needs to be met with this lazy streak in miind.

One day they will create a "Happiness" pill and very soon after every one will be taking it simply because it avoids the hard work needed to achieve happiness. [ I am referring to something a bit more effective than Prozac]

Life is never easy but we certainly want it to be.... :)

G'day!

First post on these boards! I've been reading a few posts and decided to sign up. I don't have much to add to the discussion right now (it's very interesting, BTW), however, Quantum Quack, your 'happiness' pill sounds a lot like 'soma' in Aldous Huxley's book 'Brave New World'. The people are given their happiness, but never experience the rather different happiness of totally free thought and acheivements and highs and lows and all that.

Ophiolite
10-02-05, 07:56 AM
Welcome to the forums jack. It wouldn't be terribly original of me to suggest that people think they want happiness when what they actually seek is fullfillment. Then again, just because it is a cliche, doesn't mean it's wrong. So while happiness pills could make us happy - there could never be an 'achievment' pill, for exactly the reason you note - without the lows how would you recognise a high?

duendy
10-02-05, 10:56 AM
Well, Metakron. I cannot argue with you. I may have been posting off topic, but you have certainly missed the thrust of what I was saying. That is regrettable, for you might have found we have more in common than you think.

me:::dont trust this man. he'll get you on his side then start pushing them pills

If you live in the UK I shall be happy to place myself in the range of your fists at any time.

me::hands up. wo wants to join the queue??

You may have been using
rhetoric, but I am quite ready to allow you to go after it for real - with no physical defense on my part.

Duendy has an agenda (you might say, who hasn't) this agenda I have been following on and off for almost one year. I don't agree with Duendy's views on many things. I find them distorted, and filled with hate. I don't like hate. You might say I hate hate.

me::: hmm, now please explain to the people Ophiliolite...how the livin fluck can younhate hate? that means you DO hate then dont it?........why instead dot you stop being a ruddy hypoxrite and dmit you are human like the rest of us...?

I have attacked and shall continue to attack Duendy's views, for I believe them to be counterproductinve and damaging to Duendy.

me:::oh dear loooord. that is straigh outta shrink city. this 'we are ONLY here to help you'???...Orwelian double speak again, and can be extraordinarily evil. cause the ones 'helping' denythe evil they do throug the language the use!

I intially tried reason and logic and was greeted with personal attacks and invective from Duendy. [You might want to visit some of those posts and see who was bullying whom.]

me::: hah..yeahngo and see the hate-language this angel of purity used.......heeee said it

I am but a weak human: I responded, on occasion, in kind.

me:::pass m the puke bag pleeese

Duendy seems well able to look after themselves.


me:::you got THAT one right

Thank you for placing me in the same category as wesmorris. His posts are typically reasoned, apposite and insightful.

me:: ad a COMEDIAN too hey?...hahaha

They are also, from time to time passionate.

me::ohhhh err right...mine are 'hate' HIS ae 'passionate'..i see i see

You do not Mekatron, have the market cornered in passionate belief. Some of us do not suffer fools or foolish thoughts gladly.

me::: tel me about it...sheeeesh

As I noted in an earlier post I shall attack subjects, and individuals, I consider deserving of attack.

me::same here. so watch OUT!

My offer stands to provide you with an opportunity to find me within range of your fists at some time. pm me for details. You might find you like me, and if you don't you can get some exercise with your fists.

oh the tempTATION the temptation

MetaKron
10-02-05, 11:04 AM
Thank you, Duendy. I am older than I look, actually. My insight is hard won. Unfortunately someone this year had to prove to me that it never stops and it never lets go. Maybe you can go home, but you don't want to.

duendy
10-02-05, 11:12 AM
Thank you, Duendy. I am older than I look, actually. My insight is hard won. Unfortunately someone this year had to prove to me that it never stops and it never lets go. Maybe you can go home, but you don't want to.
thats an interesting insight........as in once you are on the road?....what i have found out in lif is...it doesn't get easier...haha sorry

MetaKron
10-02-05, 11:15 AM
Well, Metakron. I cannot argue with you. I may have been posting off topic, but you have certainly missed the thrust of what I was saying. That is regrettable, for you might have found we have more in common than you think.
If you live in the UK I shall be happy to place myself in the range of your fists at any time. You may have been using rhetoric, but I am quite ready to allow you to go after it for real - with no physical defense on my part.
Duendy has an agenda (you might say, who hasn't) this agenda I have been following on and off for almost one year. I don't agree with Duendy's views on many things. I find them distorted, and filled with hate. I don't like hate. You might say I hate hate. I have attacked and shall continue to attack Duendy's views, for I believe them to be counterproductinve and damaging to Duendy.
I intially tried reason and logic and was greeted with personal attacks and invective from Duendy. [You might want to visit some of those posts and see who was bullying whom.] I am but a weak human: I responded, on occasion, in kind. Duendy seems well able to look after themselves.
Thank you for placing me in the same category as wesmorris. His posts are typically reasoned, apposite and insightful. They are also, from time to time passionate. You do not Mekatron, have the market cornered in passionate belief. Some of us do not suffer fools or foolish thoughts gladly. As I noted in an earlier post I shall attack subjects, and individuals, I consider deserving of attack.
My offer stands to provide you with an opportunity to find me within range of your fists at some time. pm me for details. You might find you like me, and if you don't you can get some exercise with your fists.

Maybe there's too much of a devil in all of us. You both sounded like people who just wanted to complete the job that was done on Duendy and me. Everyone could stand to think just what they look like standing their screaming and beating on people.

I don't know where it starts but I'm pretty sure I know where it ends.

The Screaming Eagle (http://www.totallytom.com/screamineagle.html)

Ophiolite
10-02-05, 11:55 AM
Metakron, what job was done on Duendy and you? I ask that seriously. I am not even aware that I addressed any of your points until you unleashed your attack on wes and myself. [Incidentally, I have no problem with such an attack. I am wholly comfortable with the fact that I am not a bully. I was bullied enough as a child, and for one unattractive period in my life as an adult, to know the symptoms and the effect. You are free to deduce that I am based on the posts. I would prefer you not think that, but it is your right.]
I'm not even sure that one can 'do a job' on someone in the medium of a forum. I'll go back through the entire thread now to see what you might be refering to, but I would be interested to hear your explanation.
[By the way if the screaming eagle in some way indicates you think I am some sort of right wing extremist I can only be amused. Friends and enemies generally characterise me as an eccentric left wing, bleeding heart liberal. ]

MetaKron
10-02-05, 01:48 PM
Ophiolite, Wes uses terms like "leftist dickweed" and you talk about the way that Duendy is locked into some kind of self-obsessed hatred thing. Consider the idea that maybe Duendy is absolutely right about what he sees. With all of the evidence that I have Duendy is the one that is right and you two are wrong. Your perspective seems to be that of a toady to the forces that do conspire to do bad things to people like me and Duendy.

What job was done on me and him? The job of psychological and to some extent physical destruction of our persons. Too much of the destructive activities have become entrenched in business and the fabric of society so that a lot of people can't see it. You, Ophiolite, seemed to be much too much like a fellow traveller to the bullies in this thread. You have got to take a hard look. Even if you are a peaceful sort, you may in fact be mired in the system of interpersonal violence in a way that you don't see. That's what it looks like to me.

It is delusion to think that victims of bullying can "just let go" of the experiences. It also isn't right to attack someone who points out that their "symptoms" are caused by bullying. Why would you even want to? When I think about why you would even want to, I have problems. You've seen that. There is something in your writings that is very much like a desire to cover it up. Why wouldn't you want to hear it? It's the truth. So it gets old. No kidding? How old do you think it gets for the people who live with it every day of their lives?

The screaming eagle was a comment on where this society is going to end the way it is going. It is self-destructive. Things happen and our government uses it as an excuse to take away human rights. People are bullied and the allegedly sympathetic people won't expend any real thought, just cover up the symptoms and call schizophrenics dirty names when someone goes off his nut and shoots up a McDonald's. Being a "good person" isn't worth much when you won't do the practicum. What's the matter, too difficult for you?

The screaming eagle reference was about where the cycle of violence ends. This cycle does include denial that violence is even occurring.

wesmorris
10-02-05, 04:26 PM
Ophiolite, Wes uses terms like "leftist dickweed" and you talk about the way that Duendy is locked into some kind of self-obsessed hatred thing.

LOL. So the term "leftist dickweed" is a sign of hate? Too funny. You see, I just don't take offense easily, nor do I make much judgement about what language is "crude". I think "crude language" is spicy, and I like it because it doesn't pull any punches. It doesn't HIDE behind some bullshit politically correct attitude of superiority... like you're doing.


Consider the idea that maybe Duendy is absolutely right about what he sees.

LOL. Of course he is correct in his own reference frame, but it's that frame that is just ridulously stupid. Did you even take ONE bit of notice regarding Oph's comments on VALUE? He can only see in terms of how things are so terrrible for him, with no regard to what's going on around him... outside of him.


With all of the evidence that I have Duendy is the one that is right and you two are wrong.

But you don't care what is said to the contrary. You ignore anything that doesn't re-enforce your world view of a conspiracy to destroy you. It's your sorry attitude and unwillingness to consider a bigger picture that keeps you stupid. Why? Because your attention is focused on your "pain" and perception thereof in others, with no regard as to "the reality of living". So basically, you're digging your own grave and you deserve what you get. You think I say it as a bully, when I say it as a slap to the face "wake up mofo, there is more to the world than you've considered".


Your perspective seems to be that of a toady to the forces that do conspire to do bad things to people like me and Duendy.

LOL. Anyone who challenges your "perma-victim" world-view must necessarily appear that way to you.


What job was done on me and him? The job of psychological and to some extent physical destruction of our persons.

If you are so easily "destructed", then you should be, you panzy. Stop being a pussy, and do something worthy of respect.


Too much of the destructive activities have become entrenched in business and the fabric of society so that a lot of people can't see it.

Oh, and YOU of course can because YOU are so damned insightful. Jeezus you asshead. You haven't stopped to consider what is "destructive" to you, is "constructive" to another.... possibly? No no, YOUR vision is the most clear and everyone is out to get you, to destroy the beautiful, special thing that is you. Everyone is jealous of your infinite goodness? My god man, you are naive and paranoid because you've been bullied, so you personalize that into "this is how the world is". Jackass. It's apparently how YOUR world is, but that really only applies to YOU, the perma-victim who refuses to have the character not to be bullied. Either avoid the scenario, or confront it you freakin panzy. I know it's tough man, but GROW UP.

The only people I've EVER "bullied" are bullies. That you would percieve words on a forum as "bullying" is revealing of your pain. Your pain is your problem, accept responsibilty for it, stop blaming everyone else, get over it, grow up, and use your mind to overcome your stupidity.


You, Ophiolite, seemed to be much too much like a fellow traveller to the bullies in this thread.

Ophiolite a bully? LOL. Yes, if you can't help but see youself as a helpless, pathetic wretch, you must be right. Ophiolite is a total monster, hell-bent on your destruction like everyone else. My you must have a fragile little mind. Poor delicate thing. If you're a child, I understand where you're coming from and apologize for my harshness, but it does not take from the message. The world is only out to destroy you because you think it is.


You have got to take a hard look.

Pretention, to the max! Self-righteous victims. Say it isn't so.


Even if you are a peaceful sort, you may in fact be mired in the system of interpersonal violence in a way that you don't see. That's what it looks like to me.

Because you have no vision except through your lense of pain.


It is delusion to think that victims of bullying can "just let go" of the experiences.

What is delusional is that anyone who isn't a child is a "victim" of bullying. It's go time, and "victims" try to drag everyone and everything down into their pathetic whingings. If you can't devise a way to deal with the shit you've been given, then it is exactly fitting that you drown in it. If you were drowning, I'd most likely risk my life to save yours, but if you don't even scream or try to swim - nobody will know you're in trouble. Perhaps you're just too anti-social and unlikeable for anyone to bother trying to help you, or you're simply incapable of overcoming whatever shit you've stepped in. That's too bad. I really do wish you luck with overcoming your mental block.

What is delusion is to think that the "victims" of bullies have any choice but to find out how to be okay with it no matter how ridiculous it might seem, and make sure it doesn't happen anymore. There are aspects of life that will sometimes be ridiculous. It's denial to pretend otherwise, which is exactly what you're doing. Somehow you think because "this isn't fair" it somehow shouldn't be real. Does that help you in any way? All it does it fuck you all up, and into the perma-victim that you currently are.


It also isn't right to attack someone who points out that their "symptoms" are caused by bullying.

Yes, because that might actually force that individual to be responsible for something. We couldn't have that now could we.

Look man, here's a little nugget of wisdom for your pathetic ass. Take resopnsibility for your life, no matter how fucked up it is. If you do that, you just accept "it doesn't matter who's fault it is that things are this way for me, I take responsibility", you'll find yourself in a position to actually start considering "okay, well this is fucked, how can I fix it?" instead of "nobody likes me, everyone hates me, I might as well go eat worms". Stop being a victim, or you always will be and nothing your ignoramous pal duendy, your family, me, Ophiolite, or anyone else in the world could do could possibly change it. Change comes from within, jackass.


Why would you even want to?

LOL. To try to teach someone to fend for themselves, rather that depend on someone to bring their food to them for their whole life. Of course, you can't relate because your'e a victim.


When I think about why you would even want to, I have problems.

Of course you do. Your whole life is a huge problem with everyone out to destroy you like they are.


It's the truth.

Your only truth is your pain. It distorts everything else you see.


So it gets old. No kidding?

Of course it does, because you're unwilling to do what needs to be done to change things.


How old do you think it gets for the people who live with it every day of their lives?

It's the same story for the most part. Some people truly don't have the ability to fend for themselves and should be protected. You however, seem perfectly capable but are just too emotionally jacked up to contemplate that things could be different if you weren't such a damned panzy about everything.


The screaming eagle was a comment on where this society is going to end the way it is going. It is self-destructive. Things happen and our government uses it as an excuse to take away human rights. People are bullied and the allegedly sympathetic people won't expend any real thought, just cover up the symptoms and call schizophrenics dirty names when someone goes off his nut and shoots up a McDonald's. Being a "good person" isn't worth much when you won't do the practicum. What's the matter, too difficult for you?

Who says you are a "good person"? Your mom? You? You come across like a pathetic piece of shit to me. I'd guess you can change that if you're willing. I doubt you are though. Perhaps when you're ready you'll pull your head out of your ass, quit bitching and moaning, and DEAL with what you have to deal with to find your fulfillment.


The screaming eagle reference was about where the cycle of violence ends.

Dude it sucks that you've have violence against you. I mean that blows, but the thing is, you have to integrate it into your PAST and be okay with it, or you're fucking doomed to be a sink rather than a source. Some people never get over it. Are you going to let yourself be one of them? If so, then you goddamned deserve it.


This cycle does include denial that violence is even occurring.

This thread was about ADHD, and you call the treatment "violence" when the school pimps it and the parents go blindly along. Of course you blame everyone except those who are really responsible, the parents and the schools. And of course your understanding of it is all stupid because you think it's about destruction, when if fact, it's politically correct asshats like yourself that have cause the situation to arise and people are just doing what they can to find the easy way out. Instead to you it's "violence". Your pain has you all distorted man. Let it go or be a detriment to the world for the rest of your days, like duendy's pathetic ass.

MetaKron
10-02-05, 11:16 PM
The parents and the schools are the ones I blame the most, dickhead.

wesmorris
10-02-05, 11:40 PM
The parents and the schools are the ones I blame the most, dickhead.

Why then did you say this:

"It is dangerous and morally wrong to use drugs to force that brain chemistry into something "acceptable" without addressing the real issues that an ADD or ADHD child has, like DELIBERATE ATTEMPTS TO DESTROY HIM"

Oh pardon. I got it in my mind you were saying that drugging them is a deliberate attempt to destroy him. I also inferred you'd said the world is out to destroy you. Sorry if I was mistaken.

MetaKron
10-03-05, 12:53 AM
The deliberate attempts to destroy people are the "issues" that I was referring to. I didn't say that the drugs were, not in that sentence, but the drugs are not good things. It isn't worth getting liver cancer or suffering the side effects of amphetamine use to force a child's behavior into certain molds. It is also wrong to force people against their natural perceptions that the setting they are in is destructive to them, and against. I received punishments and "treatments" because bullies latched on to me and wouldn't let go. The school refused to recognize that the bullying took place. It persuaded my mother that there was something wrong with me and that I was lying about the bullying. The school also participated.

I am with Duendy. ADD and ADHD are made up syndromes to cover up bullying. It really couldn't be otherwise. School administrations wouldn't allow anyone who went against the party line to work with the children. They guarantee the results that they want to see by restricting what the scientists see and say. Those who say the wrong thing are booted out. Those who say the "right" thing are kept.

Yes, a certain amount of the world is out to destroy me. They have made the proof of this abundantly clear just in the past few weeks. Do you take exception to my mentioning that, Wes? If so, I think that it is because your interests coincide with those of human-like characters who would destroy innocent people and pretend that they aren't doing it and it's not wrong. It remains to be seen whether you are a destroyer of human life or someone who has merely been co-opted, not that one is much better than the other. I am leaning toward the first choice. Do you wish to come up with a convincing way to persuade me that you are a real human being? So far you and Ophiolite aren't doing so well.

Quantum Quack
10-03-05, 03:50 AM
Metkron, I am sorry but you really do need to do some thorough research into this ADD ADHD thing.
Have a look at some of the footage that shows an effected child in action and then look at some more footage....If you can claim this is simply a symptom of bullying then I would suggest you have a look at what you are not seeing.

The footage that I have seen shows something considerably worse than just anti social behaviour or tantrums etc...considerably worse.

Whilst there no doubt are persons that would like to capitalise on someone elses misery I doubt that this is a generally agreed to collusion or conspiracy. More likely it may seem to be the case but is not actually the case.

It might surprise you that most doctors do actually take their jobs seriously. Sure some are a bit shonky but in the main most adhere to very high standards.

As the thread starter Brutus mentioned it took many years to get any one prepared to offer a diagnosis for his condition and he goes onto say how much benefit it eventually gave to his life. Surely if there was a drug company conspiracy he would have been diagnosed much earlier. But no it took much effort to get that diagnosis.
So I would suggest that you take the time to do the research, do the statistical analysis find hard evidence and not rely only on conjecture and inuendo. Do the hard work to find out whether your fears are founded.
Develope if you can a prima facia case that supports your conspiracy theories.
Find an unbiased way of looking at the world and see it for what it is, and you will find room for optimism. Of course though this will take some work but you can do it if you want to.
Avoid the pop media hype about sensational claims of medical faud and do the yards needed to get to a better position on the reality of it all.

Best of luck!!

Abnack
10-03-05, 07:06 AM
"So I would suggest that you take the time to do the research, do the statistical analysis find hard evidence and not rely only on conjecture and inuendo. Do the hard work to find out whether your fears are founded." - Q.Q.

But diagnosis for this supposed disorder is arrived at through conjecture . As a result , Millions of chilren are forced to consume cocaine like drugs because someone thinks they need them to "focus" .

One thing that even researchers of ADHD agree on is that many indivduals are misdiagnosed . This means that fear of being entrapped in an unfair system IS well founded .

----------------------------------------

If some one exibits ADHD like behaviour , does this mean they have a permanent brain disorder ?

wesmorris
10-03-05, 11:37 AM
The deliberate attempts to destroy people are the "issues" that I was referring to.

For example.... ?


I didn't say that the drugs were, not in that sentence, but the drugs are not good things.

The drugs themselves are neither good nor bad. They are a tool which is sometimes the right tool for the job, but as is typical of a the bunch of complicated apes that we humans are... the right tool is often applied to the wrong job.


It isn't worth getting liver cancer or suffering the side effects of amphetamine use to force a child's behavior into certain molds.

The "worth" isn't for you to decide. It's up the the parents. Further, you put it as "will get" instead of "might get". Saying a probability function evaluated at less than 100% has a certain outcome is necessarily a statement of presumption and ignorance. How much so is pretty much inversely, linearly related to the probability.


It is also wrong to force people against their natural perceptions that the setting they are in is destructive to them, and against.

Who is forcing who to what? Parents have the responsibility to force their children to do whatever they need them to for safety. It's harsh because most of the time there is no rulebook, no guide, etc., and situations are far too often beyond the scope of parental comprehension. Thus, they have to wing it on things that could potentially lead to badness for their children, which is generally the exact opposite of their intention but without being pre-cognition how could they know? Have you even considered any of that? LOL. Wait until you're a parent and get back to me.

Then again, I doubt someone with your attitude would bother to reflect upon any of this stuff - even if it were right in your face like it is when your child looks at you. Your pain is stronger than anything, and will disfunctionate your sorry ass into victim'sville ad relativinfinitum (for your whole life).


I received punishments and "treatments" because bullies latched on to me and wouldn't let go.

Well that sucks, but get over it or be miserable for the rest of your life. It's your choice. I don't want to hear your "I can't" bullshit. Either do, or fuck off. It will take some time, but don't give up. DECIDE it will be done and eventually you'll find it so.


The school refused to recognize that the bullying took place. It persuaded my mother that there was something wrong with me and that I was lying about the bullying. The school also participated.

Is your mom an idiot or did you do something to give her precidence that you're a little liar? Why did you let her believe it? Surely you could have found a way to convince her had you not just given up? Well, whatever. Forgive them and get on with your life. The past is gone. The only thing keeping it relevant is the shapes in made in your head that remain in the present. Force it to be a positive experience. Find something of value in it.


ADD and ADHD are made up syndromes to cover up bullying.

That is freakin retarded man. You've made NO CASE to support that in any way, yet you come to this conclusion based on your individual circumstance as a model for the entire world (with no consideration of the world). Sorry man, this is simply indicative of your emotional fuckedupedness. It exposes that your perspective is sorely tainted by the depth of the emotional impact of your experiences being bullied.


It really couldn't be otherwise.

Of course its possible in your particular scenario that this is what happened. More likely the reality of the situation is that it was just the easiest way to shut your snippy ass up. Does anyone like you? Do you have a smidge of charisma? Well, I have no idea as to the details of your situation. Either way I hope you're able to wise up. Maybe you're just schizo and there's little to be done to help you.


School administrations wouldn't allow anyone who went against the party line to work with the children. They guarantee the results that they want to see by restricting what the scientists see and say. Those who say the wrong thing are booted out. Those who say the "right" thing are kept.

Do you have evidence to support any of that? Do you know what it really takes to establish that as "reality"? Do you understand that just because you may have seen something that fit that profile in your experience a time or two doesn't establish much besides having seen it happen once or twice? If you can actually establish this as true, and have evidence to support it, write your study up, perform your statistical analysis and make your case for real. The last thing you should be doing is whining on an internet forum when you have a responsibility to expose "what's really happening" to the world.


Yes, a certain amount of the world is out to destroy me. They have made the proof of this abundantly clear just in the past few weeks.

Hmm. The mysterious "they". Perhaps they are strong and smell your weakness. Perhaps they can't resist the call of their function - to smash weakness. You know every time it's a test right? Do something worthy of respect and you'll be respected.


Do you take exception to my mentioning that, Wes?

No, I take note of it and provide analysis.


If so, I think that it is because your interests coincide with those of human-like characters who would destroy innocent people and pretend that they aren't doing it and it's not wrong.

Am I supposed to value an analysis that has been so clearly demonstrated as "skewed through self-pity"? Sorry but I don't.


It remains to be seen whether you are a destroyer of human life or someone who has merely been co-opted, not that one is much better than the other.

In fact, it's something you'll almost surely never know about me. Perhaps then you should consider if there is anything you could take from the words that are offered you, regardless of what you infer to be the intention of the author.


I am leaning toward the first choice.

Okay. I just don't care.


Do you wish to come up with a convincing way to persuade me that you are a real human being?

That's perplexing to me. Do you know it's exactly that kind of proposition that led to every hate crime ever done? That's Hitler's perspective of Jews. "they aren't real humans". That you could marginalize someone to that extent based on some words on a forum online is a sad, pathetic statement regarding that old emotional damage that'd plagueing you. That you would even suggest I'm "less that human", is quite telling as to the disgusting type of person you've degraded into because of the pain that you allowed, and continue allow to overcome your potential good judgement. You're in "survival mode", where anyone who poses any sort of threat is a candidate for your rage - regardless of their intention - which you've long since lost the ability to discern. If you try hard enough and don't give up, you may again find that ability... floating around somewhere in the depths of your rage.

Child, I shouldn't have to "convince you", nor will I indulge the notion. It's up to you to "recognize".


So far you and Ophiolite aren't doing so well.

LOL. You'll pardon me if I don't much value your judgement.

jack54
10-03-05, 11:37 AM
Welcome to the forums jack. It wouldn't be terribly original of me to suggest that people think they want happiness when what they actually seek is fullfillment. Then again, just because it is a cliche, doesn't mean it's wrong. So while happiness pills could make us happy - there could never be an 'achievment' pill, for exactly the reason you note - without the lows how would you recognise a high?

Thanks for the welcome. The more I visit this place the more I like it.

Well said; my thoughts on happiness exactly..

MetaKron
10-03-05, 12:42 PM
Wes, any bully is less than and other than human. I perceive you as a bully. So far your bullying is verbal. Don't try physical with me or your career as a bully will come to an abrupt end.

One very true mark of a bully is thinking that it is right to "stamp out weakness." Others include a willingness to call people names the way you do when they say something that you don't like. You blame the victim and help perpetuate his victimization. I have no doubt that you help play tricks on them when you get a chance, you think it's for the good of society, whatever. You would also love my silence because it helps perpetuate this system. You've learned how to be a part of it. Without it you probably wouldn't have a job and you certainly wouldn't have a place in society.

Yes, my mom is an idiot. I know that you meant that question rhetorically, and the rhetorical answer is that my mom is not an idiot, and you won't listen to any other answer. Use of such rhetoric is why it is such a good idea not to spout it within arm's length of me. I do not suffer fools gladly when I can smell underarm odor and they're spitting on me when they talk to me. My mom is an idiot. The school officials and teachers were outright vicious.

The worst thing you've done for yourself is to believe what you once probably pretended to buy into.

Damn right I marginalize bullies.

I think I know your intention better than you do.

MetaKron
10-03-05, 01:02 PM
Even if your intentions are good, Wes, you arrive at your conclusions without knowing what was done to me. Your responses tell me that you don't want to know. You seem to think that you can look at symptoms and tell what to do without a medical history. You think so much of your alleged wisdom that you even manufacture contempt.

The customer is always wrong in your world. He's got a problem, so you would fix it without actually listening to him. You would even hurt him for trying to tell you what is going on with him. You've more than proven that. I wouldn't even give you the time of day if you didn't exemplify what is so wrong with the way people are treated for having problems. The reason I don't go to any kind of analyst anymore is because he's not concerned for me. He's digging for incriminating evidence to use against me to pry more money out of my health insurance company. This is you all over the place. You would fit right in.

This "either get over it or fuck off" of yours is guaranteed to produce repeat business for your kind of analyst. There is no answer there, and if you don't like me saying "I can't", you are perfectly welcome to kick in your monitor screen, because I'm not going to stop saying it to please your ass. Neither you nor anyone else who has told me this has the slightest idea how to do it. If it were done to you you couldn't get over it. It was done to my mom, she uses that kind of rhetoric, and the bitch never got over it. You never did either, you just act out by blustering over people who you can bully and by pretending that it's for their own good.

I've seen this shit over and over again. People who would "treat" my "disorder" cannot and will not do anything about the bullying or even help me get away from it. They do things to confine my "behavior" to extremely narrow limits as if I am the one who is not to be trusted. As I have already said, they will even collaborate with those who are trying to destroy me. Unfortunately, the paranoid view in this case is completely accurate and if anything optimistic.

You're sick of hearing about it? If I have my way you're going to hear about it until you acquire a brain, do something positive with it, and start to solve the real problem. Until such time, you fuck off.

wesmorris
10-03-05, 01:59 PM
Wes, any bully is less than and other than human.

No, you fool. They are just humans. Humans are just complicated apes. Look to the animal kingdom and you'll see humanity.


I perceive you as a bully. So far your bullying is verbal. Don't try physical with me or your career as a bully will come to an abrupt end.

LOL. First, I really don't care what you think of me, bully or not. Learn from what I have to offer or fail to your own detriment. I will never meet you, so your only motivation for thinking of me as a bully is your own fantasy, based in your misery.


One very true mark of a bully is thinking that it is right to "stamp out weakness."

It is right for one to perform their function. You may well never understand this so long as you think of some humans and "not humans" which is in and of itself, quite stupid. I simply understand why they do what they do. Do you think that means I like it, endorse it, or indulge in it? Your weakness does make me kind of sick, but I don't want to hurt you for it. I'd rather help you be less pathetic.


Others include a willingness to call people names the way you do when they say something that you don't like.

LOL. Sticks and stone, bitch.


You blame the victim and help perpetuate his victimization.

Yes, I blame the victim for proclaiming themselves as such. Accepting the lable crushes any hopes for solving the problem.


I have no doubt that you help play tricks on them when you get a chance, you think it's for the good of society, whatever.

I don't "play tricks". I joke around a lot though, if that's what you mean. Why would I want you to be a weak piece of shit?


You would also love my silence because it helps perpetuate this system.

No what I would love is for you to pull your head out of your ass and get empowered, instead of perpetuating your victimhood.


You've learned how to be a part of it.

LOL.


Without it you probably wouldn't have a job and you certainly wouldn't have a place in society.

LOL. You see, I provide value to society in a number of ways of which you have no clue. You can only see me as the bully here on sci that's giving you a hard time. I challenge your attitude and that threatens your entire world-view so I must be marginalized as worthless so my words carry no weight with you. It's sad really that you're so hurt.


Yes, my mom is an idiot.

Sorry to hear it. I can relate to some extent.


I know that you meant that question rhetorically, and the rhetorical answer is that my mom is not an idiot, and you won't listen to any other answer.

LOL. Whatever you have to tell yourself.


Use of such rhetoric is why it is such a good idea not to spout it within arm's length of me.

Oh? You gonna beat me? You gonna think of those bullies who did whatever to you and make them into ME and take your vengence on ME? Why not THEM? You talk shit now like you're tough, but you weren't so tough when you were getting bitched up now were you? Why the change of attitude? Why not take out your frustrations on those who actually deserve it? How many other people's lives do you think you could try to ruin before you feel better? Do you think that's really going to help? If you have issues, shouldn't you address them with the people who actually wronged you? Prick.


I do not suffer fools gladly when I can smell underarm odor and they're spitting on me when they talk to me. My mom is an idiot. The school officials and teachers were outright vicious.

And now you TOO are outright vicious. You let them do this to you and you don't seem to care to change, so as I've repeated: YOU DESERVE YOUR MISERY - because you fail to get over it. No, you didn't deserve to be pummeled in the first place, but that's the past, it happened, you can't change it. Get over it, or suffer.


The worst thing you've done for yourself is to believe what you once probably pretended to buy into.

What do you think that is?


Damn right I marginalize bullies.

Which is a small part of your rather large problem.


I think I know your intention better than you do.

It's rather obvious that you couldn't possibliy fathom my intention, even though I've expressed it specifically a number of times. You don't understand I'm trying to make you realize you need to deal with your issues instead of blaming everyone else for them.

MetaKron
10-03-05, 02:41 PM
Yeah, my perceptions are sorely distorted by what happened to me, and you see it so clearly although you have no clue what is going on. Thus your ignorance triumphs over my experience.

Ophiolite
10-03-05, 02:42 PM
MetaKron, wes is devoting a significant amount of time to offering you an alternative, more productive world view. You are showing occasional bursts of interest that suggest you are on the verge of listening. Great. Go for it. Look at what Wes is saying to you. He is not attacking you, he is attacking a weakness in your attitude.
How does a marathon runner become stronger - by taking her body to the point of collapse, so that it can rebuild itself. If we browbeat this one aspect of your thinking we are doing it to make you - your whole personality stronger. You can pretend there are other motives (of course there are), but if you respond positively to this you can overcome that weakness.
I have to agree stongly with a central point wes makes: stop seeing yourself as a victim. I have been a victim more times and in more varied ways than you can yet imagine, so please don't have the audacity to talk to me about bullying and being a victim - I can trump anything you can lay out, in spades.
And who do I blame for this? Curiously, absolutely no one. Laying blame is counterproductive. Who is responsible for it? That one is easy. I am. Only I can permit someone to make me a victim, whether it be in small way or a large way. I no longer give that permission. I can no longer be bullied. You can make that same choice.
It is your choice.

wesmorris
10-03-05, 03:00 PM
Even if your intentions are good, Wes, you arrive at your conclusions without knowing what was done to me.

I know you were "bullied" and thusly see me as a "bully" because you somehow equate me with your problem. What exactly was done to you doesn't much matter. That you think of yourself as a victim is the problem. Even though you may well BE a victim, thinking of yourself as one is the wrong answer.


Your responses tell me that you don't want to know.

But you see nothing but your hate, so how do you expect to "hear" what is really being said? I'm somewhat indifferent about knowing. I'm a smidge curious, but I don't know if I have the time to be your psychotherapist any more than I'm already bothering to do. The details of it don't necessarily seem important as long as you continue to think of yourself as a victim anyway. Once you're past that and ready to DO SOMETHING about it, then the details become more relevant. I haven't asked specifically for the reasons I just mentioned and that I figured if you wanted to talk about it, you would.


You seem to think that you can look at symptoms and tell what to do without a medical history. You think so much of your alleged wisdom that you even manufacture contempt.

You simply don't understand me at all son, and that's okay with me I guess. I'd rather give you a clue, but maybe you don't want one... maybe I'm wrong about you... maybe a lot of things. I say what comes to my mind. You don't have to like it.


The customer is always wrong in your world. He's got a problem, so you would fix it without actually listening to him. You would even hurt him for trying to tell you what is going on with him. You've more than proven that.

Substantiate this. I suspect you can't. You are not my customer. Send me a check and we can talk about it. My actual customers love me. I take care of them and they appreciate it. Everyone thanks me for the help and reasonable rates.


I wouldn't even give you the time of day if you didn't exemplify what is so wrong with the way people are treated for having problems.

What makes you think I need you to give me the time of day? LOL. The only way you'd ever see anyone as helpful to you in your current sorry state is if they placate your pathetic attitude by re-enforcing your disgusting victim mentality. Rely on yourself, rally assistance, show yourself as worthy of the investment of someone else's time to help you. Just because you breath and moan like a panzy, you think you deserve help? People have shit to do pal. Why should they give a shit about someone who won't help himself? Sadly, I do to some extent, as you seem like you could be somebody if you could snap out of your fuckedupedness.


The reason I don't go to any kind of analyst anymore is because he's not concerned for me. He's digging for incriminating evidence to use against me to pry more money out of my health insurance company. This is you all over the place. You would fit right in.

You have no clue where I fit in. I'd guess based on your projection of blame, that he really does give a shit about you but doesn't buy into your "i'm a helpless bitch" attitude. Funny how you make threats to me and Ophiolite as if you're some kind of badass, but yet you can't or won't defend yourself to stop what causes your actual problem to begin with. PATHETIC BITCH. Yes, you are a sorry individual with serious issues. Get a grip, asshat.


This "either get over it or fuck off" of yours is guaranteed to produce repeat business for your kind of analyst.

Here's the deal son: Nobody can get over your problems for you. It's impossible. Either you do it, or you have problems. That's it. You don't seem to get it. I don't want your repeat business. I don't want your business at all to be honest. I want you to be a productive, well-adjusted, emotionally stable individual who makes the world a better place. I seriously doubt however at this point, that I'll EVER get what I want. What do you think?


There is no answer there, and if you don't like me saying "I can't", you are perfectly welcome to kick in your monitor screen, because I'm not going to stop saying it to please your ass.

It's not MY ass that needs pleasing. Think.


Neither you nor anyone else who has told me this has the slightest idea how to do it.

That's because nobody but YOU, CAN. Idiot.


If it were done to you you couldn't get over it.

You have no clue what I could or couldn't get over, nor what I would or wouldn't allow to happen to me. Certainly many things happen that I can't control. You MUST get over it. If you see it as THERE IS NO CHOICE but to do so, then you will. Otherwise you won't. It's that simple.


It was done to my mom, she uses that kind of rhetoric, and the bitch never got over it. You never did either, you just act out by blustering over people who you can bully and by pretending that it's for their own good.

LOL. That's what I did? Really? ROFLMAO. Too funny man. As if you know anything of my life. You think you can, since I challenge YOUR problem, infer into my life? You are so, SO far off... but you'll think as you will... so I'll simply find the notion amusing and move along. I just happen to, for whatever reason, understand shit. You obviously don't, and are failing miserable in your sorry attempts to infer anything about me.


I've seen this shit over and over again. People who would "treat" my "disorder" cannot and will not do anything about the bullying or even help me get away from it.

You don't have any friends who can help you? You don't know any wise dudes who can figure out how to help you make it right? I suspect you may, but any wisdom offered you is lost in your abysmal lense of pain on the way to your awareness. One thing you could do about it is simply avoid the people involved. Another is to, as I've said a number of times - do something worthy of the bullies respect. But in order to accomplish that, you have to think about what it is that commands their respect, and you - being a victim who won't accept anything but continued victimhood, won't possibly consider that a viable option, nor can you do anything to "let it go" or "get over it", so you, the idiot, set up a situation that you can't get out of and blame everyone else for your inability to do so, no matter what is offered to help you deal with it. For all your intellect, you're still a moron. That's what's really sad.


They do things to confine my "behavior" to extremely narrow limits as if I am the one who is not to be trusted.

What have you done to show you should be? I'm growing suspiscious that you indeed, aren't to be trusted at all. Your analysis is shit, your attitude is shit, you're not at all charming, you bitch, moan and whine constantly. What the fuck is there about you to trust or like? Motivate me.


As I have already said, they will even collaborate with those who are trying to destroy me.

Uh huh. Maybe your sorry ass needs destruction then. I have no motivation at this point to think otherwise. If everyone who ever encounters you wants to kill you for some reason, maybe they're onto something? What the shit do I know about you but some words from sci? Perhaps you truly suck. Are you just a kid? If you're just a kind like I said before, I can understand more.. and there's not a lot you can do till you're 18. At that point, you can take control of your life. If I for instance were percieving things like you are and not yet 18, I'd be planning to move on my 18th birthday. Get a fresh start. You don't sound like you have much keeping you where you are anyway, what with the plot for your destruction and all. So move. Leave. Get a fresh start and see if your paranoia is justified. If it turns out the same in the new place, I'd start pondering what it is about YOU that you need to change.


Unfortunately, the paranoid view in this case is completely accurate and if anything optimistic.

Whatever you say.


You're sick of hearing about it?

Meh. I'm pretty indifferent actually.


If I have my way you're going to hear about it until you acquire a brain, do something positive with it, and start to solve the real problem. Until such time, you fuck off.

You don't care to have your problem solved, you've said it already:

"I CAN'T GET OVER IT".

You're fucked until you change your mind about that.

MetaKron
10-03-05, 03:07 PM
You two aren't helping. You are just using the guise of a helper as a means to perpetuate and add to the abuse. That's all there is to it as far as I am concerned. With friends like you who needs cyanide?

MetaKron
10-03-05, 03:28 PM
Wes and Ophiolite here are missing a huge part of a human personality each. They are missing the nurturing side and treating it with contempt. They are part of the problem because they make it worse. The only mechanism they offer for recovery is by Darwinian selection. Some of us might win this way, but it isn't worth the cost in our humanity. The rest of us will just go down. The ones who smash our heads under our heels look upon us as contemptible. I look back and see them as sociopaths.

People like me needed at least a minimum of nurturing, the process of raising the young that is mandatory for all mammals. This is the normal and right way for it to go. Some seem to say that it is wrong to know the difference. I say that ignorance sucks and if we are to ever know right from wrong, we should be in touch with the life inside us.

Look at the Quisling who says that if a bunch of sociopaths want me dead, maybe I should be dead. Where does that come from? If it comes from ignorance, that certainly doesn't make his assessment accurate. Hey, I wouldn't even realize that the last nasty stunt was done to me on purpose except that the sociopaths made absolutely certain that I knew it. So they forced me to lose my job and they forced me to know that they did it to me on purpose, and that it was related to the things that the same family has done to me for about 40 years. I happen to know that they are sociopaths because of their heavy involvement in the drug trade in this area and their habitual stealing and vandalism. This cannot be justified.

Look at the two here who it seems will do anything to cover up certain facts. Do they actually believe that things will get better if I run away from my problems or sweep them under the rug? Will they get better if I look into a fantasy world that bears some of the trappings of high technology? If I accept the alleged fact that it was just me all along, and little mistakes that I made justified gang assaults against me and a criminal conspiracy? Or if I accepted the outright lie that these things only seem to have happened and it's just me being a crazy little shit?

It is time to declare an open rebellion against psychobabble, forced drugging, bullying, and human stupidity and ignorance. Wes Morris and Ophiolite have by their rhetoric here declared themselves to be candidates for a Hall of Shame. Whether it's for being bullies, Quislings, or half-assed ass-brained attempts at being helpers, I will have to think about.

Ophiolite
10-03-05, 03:32 PM
Well, I'm sorry to hear you think that way. Please identify, for yourself, what in my last post was in anyway abusive. Really, go and re-read it. Tell me where I abuse you. Where?
The abuse is in your mind. You control your mind. You, not me, not wes, not anyone else. You. Use that control. Stop being a victim. You are better than that. The only downside to accepting this is that the two bullying abusers, Ophiolite and Wes, turn out to be right. Which is better? A lifetime of abuse, or admitting that two people you don't know may actually understand your situation better than you will currently admit.
You do not need to be a victim. Not now, not ever.
Again, your choice. Your choice.
[You might also want to ask what on Earth do we gain by pretending to help? I don't see that one at all.]

MetaKron
10-03-05, 03:41 PM
By pretending to be helpful you get your hooks into me. I doubt if you even intend to be helpful, Ophiolite, and even if you did, I have the absolute right to be critical of the gifts that you offer. When it is a more sophisticated method of yanking me around, your gift has little or no value.

duendy
10-03-05, 03:44 PM
You have great insight, and hav e defo seen right trough the terrible twins of social darwinism.....well done mate, and sorry bout your troubles dude

wesmorris
10-03-05, 03:44 PM
You two aren't helping.

YOU CAN'T BE HELPED. YOU ALREADY SAID IT. WE TRY, BUT IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN BECAUSE YOU'VE MADE UP YOUR MIND BEFORE ASKING. You're a sabatuer. A condition exists in which you are the only one on earth with a key to a lock. Then you stand there screaming "get me a key to this lock!, someone, please!!!!!!!" and get all indignant that people tell you it's right there around your neck. You suck.


You are just using the guise of a helper as a means to perpetuate and add to the abuse.

You are just a paranoid victim little bitch who pisses me the fuck off because you blame everyone for not fixing shit that only you can fix. It drives me insane to see such sickness.


That's all there is to it as far as I am concerned.

Wow, stamping your feet and crossing your arms. Impressive. Just keep your fingers in your ears pal. *sigh*


With friends like you who needs cyanide?

It is disgusting to make such a comparison. This is a forum. It's digital. You are in no risk whatsoever except of not taking advantage of wisdom. You can't be hurt by these words unless you allow it. You allow it, then blame ME and/or Ophiolite (who is SO much more polite and restrained than myself on this issue) because you allow it.

It's your problem. You solve it. You've been shown the door, I can't open it for you.

Ophiolite
10-03-05, 03:55 PM
Metakron, I made my last post before seeing your most recent.. Youíre on your own. Good luck. But before I go here is a small list:

You are full of crap.
Your denial (of humanoid monsters) is pathetic.
Your kind hasn't upgraded from "we're right and you're stupid and if you don't believe us we'll kick your heads in and shut you up."
You have revealed yourself as a bully here, who is willing to continue the victimization of people right now.
You should be neutered.
Your genes are of horribly negative value to the human race.
I don't even think of you as human.
Please place yourself within range of my fists sometime.
It remains to be seen whether you are a destroyer of human life or someone who has merely been co-opted.
Do you wish to come up with a convincing way to persuade me that you are a real human being?
You are missing the nurturing side (of the human personality) and treating it with contempt.
You have declared yourself to be a candidate for the Hall of Shame.

These are things you have said about me. Donít you think they are maybe just a tiny bit abusive?

wesmorris
10-03-05, 03:56 PM
By pretending to be helpful you get your hooks into me.

Hooks?

Digital hooks?

What hooks do we have here at sci?

How could you possibly be "hooked"?

Who would want YOU, and your disgusting attitude "hooked"?

Even if you weren't disgusting in mind, what would be the advantage of having you "hooked"?

Why would anyone want to do so even if possible?

This is paranoia....

Oh wait. This is becoming clear.

I get it.

And there's no reasoning with the unreasonable. I take it you are FUNDAMENTALLY unreasonable, as in - lacking the capacity to reason.

Buh-bye.

MetaKron
10-03-05, 03:56 PM
When you two show me some wisdom, I'll use it. Your form of rehabilitation was debunked so long ago that you and Ophiolite were probably not even born yet. All you are doing is recycling crap that was pretty thoroughly discredited by 1980, and so are the psychologists. I consider it to be a form of torture.

Neither one of you handles criticism particularly well. I've seen you both use name-calling before you even received criticism back, so you've definitely got bugs up your asses too. Like I told Ophiolite in another thread, you don't want to be thought of as bullies, get rid of the beany and put on a decent shirt. In other words, don't go around making yourself look like them. If you really are some kind of helper, you place way too high a value on shock and on Darwinism. These things only work on those people who are able to do it themselves. They didn't need anyone's help in the first place. In fact, what I am complaining about is a small group of people who placed themselves in my way and deliberately damaged me when I was helping myself. Even I, as paranoid as I was before, did not actually believe that after 20 years of being away from those people they would come to me and do the things that they did. Had they not deliberately hurt me, I would be caught up on my bills, I would be gainfully employed, and I would be too busy to talk to you right now.

The comparison stands. Toxic friends are no help. If I could have woken up from this nightmare I already would have and I have received more than enough shock treatment and Darwinism, aka trying to fix a broken clock by smashing it against a wall. There are real sociopaths who have real agendas and people who refuse to recognize this or who blame the victim are part of the problem.

MetaKron
10-03-05, 03:59 PM
Metakron, I made my last post before seeing your most recent.. Youíre on your own. Good luck. But before I go here is a small list:

You are full of crap.
Your denial (of humanoid monsters) is pathetic.
Your kind hasn't upgraded from "we're right and you're stupid and if you don't believe us we'll kick your heads in and shut you up."
You have revealed yourself as a bully here, who is willing to continue the victimization of people right now.
You should be neutered.
Your genes are of horribly negative value to the human race.
I don't even think of you as human.
Please place yourself within range of my fists sometime.
It remains to be seen whether you are a destroyer of human life or someone who has merely been co-opted.
Do you wish to come up with a convincing way to persuade me that you are a real human being?
You are missing the nurturing side (of the human personality) and treating it with contempt.
You have declared yourself to be a candidate for the Hall of Shame.

These are things you have said about me. Donít you think they are maybe just a tiny bit abusive?

If you wish me to exercise some sort of introspection, do it for yourself first. These were in response to abuse by you and Wes. You treat me with contempt, you get a faceful.

I really don't need your help anyway because I am better at this stuff than you are. Your ideas of help are the lowest grade, lowest-common denominator, and you haven't figured out that being a Quisling doesn't help.

I can't help you. You need my help very badly but you don't have the capacity to understand that. I feel sorry for you.

MetaKron
10-03-05, 04:08 PM
You have great insight, and hav e defo seen right trough the terrible twins of social darwinism.....well done mate, and sorry bout your troubles dude

Duendy, half the time I don't understand why they are taking off the way they do. Mention anything and they go into that spiel that comes straight from the "minds" of abusers. They are terribly offended that I would think that people who deliberately damaged me actually deliberately damaged me. Where does that come from? I see a lot of mental dissociation here. I see a lot of deflection. When some sociopath accosts me on the street and punches me in the jaw because it gives him a thrilling sensation in his groin, how does this relate back to some fancy-label psychobabble problem that I have because of an imbalance in my brain chemistry? Even if he were responding to some nerd pheremone, would that make it OK?

Excuses for bullying don't wash. Verbally attacking a victim of bullying for mentioning his problems identifies a person positively as an abuser, no matter what that person thought he was doing. They would force me to confront my abuse with absolutely no power to do anything about it and blame me for the results when it goes bad again. What causes people to identify a victim as the one who is wrong and must be "treated" while they won't identify the bully and "treat" and confine him? Just as much as living with the possibility of being attacked and physically injured or driven from employment, I have to live with people who can't and won't do anything about the sociopaths who commit these criminal acts. I have to live with Quislings and collaborators and just plain closeted bullies. If I fuck off my helpers at least I get rid of half the problem.

Ophiolite
10-03-05, 04:09 PM
One more time. When and where in this thread did I abuse you?

MetaKron
10-03-05, 04:16 PM
" Kotoko, Duendy is locked into a self obssessed diatribe against them"

As far as I am concerned, when you said that it was on.

Ophiolite
10-03-05, 04:20 PM
I have to leap in here, re your "When some sociopath accosts me on the street and punches me in the jaw". Some years ago myself and a couple of friends asked some other youths (I was young then) not to break bottles in the street as they would be a danger to others, especially young children. They crossed the street to argue the case with us. At one point the one I was talking to head butted me on the jaw. It was rather painful as I recall. My reaction: I said "There. That exactly proves my point. You are a mindless moron who has to resort to physical violence when you are losing an argument. That headbutt was not even relevant to our discussion."
Frankly, the whole incident seemed to be more of a problem for him than for me. Why? Because I refused to allow such an attack to control me; to generate the expected reaction; to make me a victim.
As I recall it took me around two seconds to get over it - that was merely to regain my balance. Hitting me was irrelevant. Why should I heed it? Was it wrong? Of course it was, but so what? I mean I had already experienced some pain courtesy of this yob. i certainly wasn't going to also allow him to effect my mental state as well. Why would you?

MetaKron
10-03-05, 04:21 PM
See? You really do have no idea what I'm talking about.

duendy
10-03-05, 04:25 PM
HI MetaKron.......You are right. it is the victim that gets blamed by the attitudes , as actually being DEMONSTRATED here....god help the child who would ask them for help wit bullying. they would be thrown in te lion's den to..make them a 'maaaan'...wo yeah. soon --if succesful, tey'll graduate to guns. cause thatsa what real men do, who wont be 'victims'.....schools aint looked at, rotten institutions aint looked at, corrupt government and secret government aint looked at.....no. we can see tis pattern reeeel goood. they apparently cant

surely being a real victim isa when you hav got ya head stuck right up yer arse in the shit

MetaKron
10-03-05, 04:25 PM
The thing that has pissed me off the most here is that you (Ophiolite) don't want to know what Duendy and I have been talking about, but then you want to pontificate as if you know all of the facts already. I'll say it again, WTH does that come from? That alone is abusive. If you were so smart I wouldn't have to explain it to you.

Ophiolite
10-03-05, 04:28 PM
" Kotoko, Duendy is locked into a self obssessed diatribe against them"

As far as I am concerned, when you said that it was on.
I abused Duendy not you. I have not abused you.
OK. I'll make it easy for you. Since you seem to think I an inhuman bully who should be neutered I shall make it true. You can exchange your little pms with Duendy (of course we know about them!) about how I finally revealed my true colours.

Metakron you are a _________, _____, _____ ________. Your _____ and _____ are such a _____ _____ and _____ _____ to any decent person that ______ ___ _______ _________ _____. Basically, ______ ________ ________ ________ ________ ________ ________ _______.


Metakron, please fill in the blanks with suitably offensive words and phrases. I think you will do a much more effective job of this than I.

Now, finally, good night.

MetaKron
10-03-05, 04:42 PM
HI MetaKron.......You are right. it is the victim that gets blamed by the attitudes , as actually being DEMONSTRATED here....god help the child who would ask them for help wit bullying. they would be thrown in te lion's den to..make them a 'maaaan'...wo yeah. soon --if succesful, tey'll graduate to guns. cause thatsa what real men do, who wont be 'victims'.....schools aint looked at, rotten institutions aint looked at, corrupt government and secret government aint looked at.....no. we can see tis pattern reeeel goood. they apparently cant

surely being a real victim isa when you hav got ya head stuck right up yer arse in the shit

Throwing us into the lion's den is pretty redundant because we already live there. What I've seen in this thread is jeering at us for being hurt after someone punched us out. This garbage is indeed abuse disguised as efforts to help.

If I solved my problems like a "real man" I would have been in and out of jail a few times, because a "real man" who faces the crap I have goes out and actually beats the offenders to a bloody pulp. One of the reasons that the "real man" doesn't usually spend a lot of time in jail is because the offenders leave him alone after a few beatings.

Ophiolite's example is damned weak. If he was able to talk that one person down after the head-butt, he didn't face anything like what I have faced. Six effing years old they come out of nowhere in groups. Do you think that 40 years ago bullies didn't know that they could be talked out of beating someone up if they allowed the person to speak? So they just grabbed me and threw me down and beat me.

What do Ophiolite and Wes get out of this?

invert_nexus
10-03-05, 05:12 PM
Go ahead and add me to your list of bullies then. Because I've been following this thread and just can't get over how much of a pathetic miserable little shit you are.


If I solved my problems like a "real man" I would have been in and out of jail a few times, because a "real man" who faces the crap I have goes out and actually beats the offenders to a bloody pulp.

I don't recall anyone recommending you go out and beat anybody up except for someone mentioning that you shouldn't be threatening physical violence on the people in this thread when your real issue is with these people that picked on you when you were six years old.

It's you that are mentioning physical violence. Nobody else.

The advice I've seen is for you to stop dwelling on the past. Shit happened. Ok. It was bad. Poor you. You were victimized.
Big fucking shit.
Now you carry that victimization with you like a badge of honor. Part of your identity.

I recall from that other thread you jumped into and hijacked with your pathetic whining you said that you came back to town after time away. I suspect that you expected time to have healed the wounds and that they'd accept you after all this time. But it turns out they just started picking on you again...
So what?
Fuck them.

Shit. What to even say to you? You ignore anything that doesn't jibe with your obsessions...


Throwing us into the lion's den is pretty redundant because we already live there. What I've seen in this thread is jeering at us for being hurt after someone punched us out. This garbage is indeed abuse disguised as efforts to help.

I love how you've latched on to Duendy so fiercely.
Finally. Someone who likes you. Right?
Hey. Glad you found a friend. But the fact of the matter is that the shit that Duendy was spewing earlier in this thread (and the shit that he spews in many other threads) has nothing to do with your bullying world-view.


Anyway.
You're just such a pathetic weenie that I don't doubt you get picked on in the real world. If this is any clue as to how you carry yourself in general...

Is your name picklehead, by any chance? (He was a kid that was picked on badly in my school. And. Yes. I did my share of picking on him. And. I even carried this bullying on into later years. Sort of. You see. He thought to try to interject himself into the group in later years. Showing up at parties to which he wasn't invited. He wasn't welcome and it was made plain that he wasn't welcome. Nobody went out of their way to pick on him, they just made him aware that he wasn't in a place where he was welcome. No harm in that. (It's a matter of trust. Things happen at parties. You don't want strangers or people you don't trust present. Actually, I suspect he was working for the police when he tried becoming 'friends' with his old tormentors...) I do feel bad for him sometimes. He didn't really deserve the shit he got. He was just a social failure. His family was very christian and I suspect that his upbringing was twisted in some ways that those outside his family never knew... Maybe even sexual abuse. Or psychological abuse. Or perhaps he was just weird... or who knows... As you say, the bullying perpetuates itself. The reasons for its beginning are chaotic as it is merely the caprice of children but the patterns become entrenched after time. In both bully and victim. You're an excellent example of this entrenchment.)

(By the way. Even though I'm sure you've placed me squarely in the role of bully now (I've even invited you to do so) I have spent my share of time being bullied. Attempted anyway. The situation is complex. I was an oddball myself and thus the attempt was made by some to ostracize me. But, it never worked. I generally made them look foolish in their attempts (although I was beat up a time or two) and was generally well-liked even if never fully accepted as some others were. It's kinda strange, really. The weird networks of chldren's lives. I never really cared one way or the other and much of the attempted scorn just dripped off of me because of it. Nothing pisses a bully off more than to realize the depths of his impotence, by the way. The bully is powerless. You give him all his power.)


Anyway.
If your true desire is to speak of this bullying, then why don't you start a thread on it rather than hijack every thread you touch with it?
I realize that bullying is the center of your existence (and that you'd probably completely vanish were it to removed from your consciousness) but it's not really germane to ever discussion under the sun.

Start a thread.
Try to be clear and concise.
Have a point.
See what happens.
(And do try not to whine. A good piece of advice would be to attempt to depersonalize the situation somewhat.)

I think that a well-written thread might be interesting. My mind has often turned to those unfortunates who were so horribly ostracized as children. Some for being fat. Some for stinking. Some for being stupid. Some for being smart. Some for having a funny name. Some for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

A child's world is a horrible one in many way. Cruel and hierarchic.
What's even worse is when the failures of that system carry their angst with them well into their later lives. (Take the instance of Picklehead being made to feel unwelcome at our parties. This isn't exactly a carryover from the earlier bullying. It's more a matter of trust. The motivations were different.)

I hope that you someday work your problems out, dude. But I doubt you will. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. You're branded.
A real pity.
There's always hope though.

MetaKron
10-03-05, 05:15 PM
It's obvious that I can't count on people like you to grow up or leave me alone, Invert.

invert_nexus
10-03-05, 05:23 PM
Why should you have to count on 'people like me' for anything?

As to 'leaving you alone'. Consider what I said about Picklehead. He was left alone. He was only picked on in later years when he tried interjecting himself into social situations in which he wasn't welcome. Situations which required a certain amount of trust which wasn't there for him.

Mark what I said about him probably working for the police. I find the odds of this very high. And after he failed to enter the 'group' another who was more of a clique-straddler in school (like I was) did the job. Several of my friends spent prison-time because of this incident. (Drugs.)

Why do you think that you should be allowed to go where you're not welcome? Do you think that you have the right to place yourself into any social situation you wish?

If so. Then don't you think you should be liable to the consequences of your decisions?

Make a careful note of what I'm saying. I'm asking about what you are doing. Not what others are doing. I don't give a shit about any of them. They're not important to the discussion (the off-topic discussion.)

You are the center of your existence.
Do you take responsibility for anything that happens in your life?

MetaKron
10-03-05, 06:37 PM
What I am going to do is take down the gang that took me down, whatever it takes, however long it takes, if it is the last thing I do. You and yours here have proven that it is necessary to do this. Fuck you.

MetaKron
10-03-05, 06:43 PM
I will tell you what makes this issue "take over" a thread, you moral and mental retards. It is when someone raises the issue of bullying and a few of you start immediately abusing him. That's what makes it take over the thread. Bastards.

invert_nexus
10-03-05, 06:48 PM
How petty of you.
Oh well.
Enjoy. You'll probably have to kill them, right?
Blow up their trailer or something?
Or you could try the Picklehead route and infiltrate their lair to bust them on drug charges. But we both know they'd never let you in.
So. Youll have to blow them up or something.

I thought you said you didn't want to do something that would send you to prison?
Are you going to commit suicide when the centers of your existence (your bullies) are dead and gone?


You and yours here have proven that it is necessary to do this.

I'm sure you could read the back of a box of Lucky Charms and have this 'proven' to you.


I will tell you what makes this issue "take over" a thread, you moral and mental retards. It is when someone raises the issue of bullying and a few of you start immediately abusing him. That's what makes it take over the thread. Bastards.

Oh. So. It's not your changing the subject of bullying that is the cause of the hijacking, but rather the people that respond to you?

Typical.
It's never your fault, is it?

I meant it. Start a thread. It might be interesting. If it's well-written.

And. I also meant my question. What, in your life, do you personally take responsibility for? Anything at all?

MetaKron
10-03-05, 06:54 PM
I take responsibility for nothing, Invert_nexus. I have finally had to recognize that anywhere I go, someone is going to find a pretense for taking control of my life. Then they are going to tear me up and blame me for everything that goes wrong. And I will be the one who is wrong and they will be the fucking hero.

invert_nexus
10-03-05, 06:57 PM
I take responsibility for nothing, Invert_nexus.

Wow.
You're so far gone that you don't even try to deny it.
That's bad. Very bad.
You're a sad case.
Extremely sad.

Ok.
Goodbye.

MetaKron
10-03-05, 07:00 PM
I'm better off without you.

MetaKron
10-03-05, 07:08 PM
Any time someone tries to reveal certain truths, like the connection between misdiagnoses of ADD and school bullying, someone else starts a shouting match like this. We've seen that Wes and Invert_nexus simply start out with the name-calling. How about that? Then suddenly I'm the bad guy who started it?

I don't know why anyone thinks I'm stupid enough to go for it. This is so stupid when you repeat the same tricks over and over again and act like you've accomplished something. You all have shit for brains? Or are you just crazy? You are exactly as I have said you are. You are bullies with shit for brains and crazy.

I'm going to give up hoping that you will come up with something clever. I'm even going to give up hoping that it will be past my lifetime before you idiots incinerate the planet playing with science toys.

invert_nexus
10-03-05, 07:20 PM
The issue is that you brought up this 'connection' between ADD and bullying. People didn't agree with you. They responded. They rebutted. You ignored their rebuttals and instead went completely on the bully tangent. You started accusing them of being bullies. You started accusing them of being subhuman. You started whining about how horrible your life was and how badly you were bullied and how you're still bullied and how nothing is your fault.

YOU fail, time and time again, to respond to posts. You ignore everything that was said. Questions that were asked. Points that were made. And you instead concentrate on your own pain. You do this so much that the entire topic soon becomes subsumed in your own personal issues rather than the original topic.

YOU did this.
Yes. Others took part. People could have just ignored you when you failed to respond to posts in a meaningful fashion. But, they didn't.
So. You're not alone in the hijacking.
But, you did start it.


I'm going to give up hoping that you will come up with something clever.

Of course you're lying, right?
You never hoped.


Any time someone tries to reveal certain truths

"Truths." And if people don't agree with your "truths" then they're bullies.


By the way, I don't think you've got ADD. You've got OCD.

And. Also. This thread is about Adult Attention Deficit Disorder. This is the chief idiocy of Duendy's stereotypical "Won't someone think of the CHILDREN?!" (A method of coercement which should always raise warning flags, by the way.)

MetaKron
10-03-05, 07:25 PM
Well, you people have triggered every damn red flag I've got.

Isn't it something? A gang takes me down and it "just happens." I talk about taking the gang down and I'm talking about committing a crime, aren't I?

You're right. I never hoped. There is no reason for me to even think of hoping.

They started the name calling. I guess I finished it.

The answer to the question is that this is not reality. It's not even close.

invert_nexus
10-03-05, 07:41 PM
A gang takes me down and it "just happens."

A gang.
Yeah.
That's it.

Yes. It does just happen.
If you could step outside yourself and read the whiny shit you spew you'd do the same.


I talk about taking the gang down and I'm talking about committing a crime, aren't I?

I don't know. That's why I asked you.
How do you 'take them down'?

Let me ask you a question.
(I've already asked several and you never answered. But I'll give one final try.)

I asked you about what right you think you might have to interject yourself into social occasions and what that might mean to your responsibility for putting yourself in this position (bear in mind that I have no direct knowledge of your exact circumstances. I asked the questions specifically because of the Picklehead incident.)

So. Let me ask you this. You're walking down the aisle of the town grocery store. You see 'them'.
Let me split the question.
You see one of them. Walking towards you. What happens?

You see a group of them. Walking towards you. What happens?

You're all grown men. I know you're in your 40's right? Or late 30's?
What happens. Describe the bullying.


You're right. I never hoped. There is no reason for me to even think of hoping.

Fact is that this is, in a way, the right attitude to have. You shouldn't hope that someone is going to save you. You have to save yourself.

But, the attitude that comes through is more of one where you want to hope because you feel that someone should save you. You feel that you're being robbed because you don't hope. Because no one is going to save you. (I bet you have abandonment issues.)


They started the name calling. I guess I finished it.

Nobody gives a shit about name calling. I'm talking about responses. You fail to respond.


The answer to the question is that this is not reality. It's not even close.

Which question? You're referring to where I talk about how "if you come across this way in the real world"?

How do you come across in the real world? How do you see yourself as coming across?

Speaking of 'reality'. You earlier made mention of them 'not being human'. How far do you carry this? Do you really believe this or are you just hyperbolizing?

Quantum Quack
10-03-05, 07:59 PM
Metakron,
Abstraction:

You are on a stage, the whole world is tuned into your broadcast. You have the opportunity to say all the things you always wanted to say about you life to date. You stand there and start to speak, and for the next 3 hours every one is listening to your words. Finally after many tears and angry outbursts you fall silent. Having said what you needed to say you ask the audience [ all 7 billion of them ] if they can think of one question to ask you.
A couple of hours goes by and eventually a small envelope is handed to you.
You open the envelope .......and read the small note inside holding the question...it has seven words to it:
"What are you going to do now?"

You see even if we were all privy to your past traumas we can not help you. No human has that ability. Even God if he existed would probably decline to help you. Because it is essential that you learn to help yourself.
There isn't a single person that can change your past.
No amount of prayng or wishing is going to make the past any different.
You have a past and you are stuck with it.
You also have a future and now that is where you can gain success. To step out of the circle of self abuse your abusers have placed you in is the challenge.
Even if you destroy the entire population of bullies on the planet you will still have that past to deal with, but then you would have to deal with your own participation in the destruction.

The bottom line is that no matter what you do no one can change the past and nothing you can do will change the past, you can only change the past to be. [ future]

The abuse you recieved is still being perpetuated by yourself. You are still being abused but now it is by yourself. They [the bullies ] are still succeeding and even your success in their destruction [revenge] is a part of their success as bullies. They too are also the object of bullying. They want to be destroyed and to do so would finally destroy yourself as well.

The prime purpose of a bully is to inspire retaliation. And well...that's exactly what you are wanting to do.

MetaKron
10-03-05, 08:08 PM
I was thinking that I would go and fuck myself.

Actually, I have to wonder why the dogpiling at the mere mention of the bullying. Why all the deliberate provocation of the victim of the bullying? Sometimes a guy would really like to tell one short story that is connected to the topic and not have to respond to yards of abuse and idiocy afterwards.

Who is taking it too far here? Heated denials that bullying take place do not help. Neither do impromptu pretend therapy sessions. Simply admit that it happens and stop taking the discussion the direction of shutting up the person who complains.

The one thing that I think that you and yours want to do here is to preserve the status quo so that the bullying continues and "justice" continues to feed on people who did their best to be innocent of wrong-doing but fell down because they were pushed.

So what if I cure myself? You and yours are going to keep doing it to everyone else. You, and I do think you personally, are going to take away chunks of people's lives that they will never get back. You are going to warp minds and do what you can to deny them the facilities that they need to treat the problems that this causes. Then you are going to hold the victims "responsible" to heal the problems that you cause while denying them the means to do it.

Ophiolite
10-04-05, 01:45 AM
Heated denials that bullying take place do not help. You don't read anything do you. I have been the victim of bullying as a child (for the bulk of of my childhood), as an adolescent (and that's traumatic), and for a period as an adult that took me close to a breakdown. I have stated that before, but clearly you think I am lying. I am part of the conspiracy of bullies out to get you. You are being offered the solution and you repeatedly reject it.
Choose to stop being a victim. Its a choice that we can each make. If you are so stubborn and self absorbed that you do not wish to heed the advice of one who has been there - fine. Just stop with the public whining why don't you.

duendy
10-04-05, 03:12 AM
.....Hey MetaKron.....see you are still holdin your own througout tis onslaught....riiiight on. you sound the only intelligent nd human one here...cept for me..heh

tat invery nexus...hmmmmmm seems realy a viscious one. went to check his credentials. doesn't give much away at ALL. bad sign....anal retentative no doubt

Yoy are anylyzing what is going on admirably. itis YOU who have learned through heavy experiences NOT the othes here who relentlessly are trying to control--via bullying tactics. ...it is notable how tis subject HAS caused this passion.....why? cause it goes right to the fukin centre of tis viscious bullying culture is why.....ie., lisen up boys: IT IS EXPOSIN IT!..good style. every time some child is forced to take so-called meds for hios 'disease' 'ADHD' etc, that IS bullying. bullying her/him to fit in tis bullying system 'OR ELSE!'!!....not only can kids be forced, but theirparents too by the authorities...who are, get this 'only trying to help'...yeaaahhhh, like you'll who are layin into MetaKron are trying to 'help'....not one of you have any senistivity whatsoever

Ophiolite
10-04-05, 09:09 AM
Duendy do you read anything I write, or do you simply assume I am lying?

MetaKron
10-04-05, 12:30 PM
You don't read anything do you. I have been the victim of bullying as a child (for the bulk of of my childhood), as an adolescent (and that's traumatic), and for a period as an adult that took me close to a breakdown. I have stated that before, but clearly you think I am lying. I am part of the conspiracy of bullies out to get you. You are being offered the solution and you repeatedly reject it.
Choose to stop being a victim. Its a choice that we can each make. If you are so stubborn and self absorbed that you do not wish to heed the advice of one who has been there - fine. Just stop with the public whining why don't you.

Telling me that I had power to stop the bullying is wrong and it is abusive.

You probably are part of the conspiracy whether you acknowledge it or not. You haven't made the mental effort it takes to not be part of it. You don't have the insight that you need. You also don't have a solution. You have babble from pop psychology that I don't think even the pop psychologists believe any more. And if you start quoting Dr. Laura I will vomit.

wesmorris
10-04-05, 12:44 PM
Telling me that I had power to stop the bullying is wrong and it is abusive.

It is obvious that you DIDN'T have it, and nobody said you did. Pay attention. The point of the derision toward you is, why don't you now? Especially considering your willingness (and mind you, you're the only one making threats on this page) to talk shit about "getting me within range of your fists".

Of course, you're not sane... so this is pointless. Pardon.

invert_nexus
10-04-05, 12:50 PM
It's hard not to respond. Isn't it, Wes? Even though the guy is so disgusting, you just want to help him because he's so pathetic and the solution is so simple. But he just won't get it!

He's 45 years old or so. He was 6 in 1966 according to things he said in his debut hijacking (the psychopath thread). He'll never get his shit together.

And yet. The urge to point out to him the obviousness of his errors is overwhelming.


Telling me that I had power to stop the bullying is wrong and it is abusive.

Fuck the 'had'. No one gives a shit about the 'had'. We're talking about the now. Not the then. The then is over. Done with. Unchangeable. (Unless, like Napoleon Dynamite's uncle Rico, you're going to buy a time travel device off the internet... (don't forget to put in the crystals...))

It's the now that matters. The now and the 'to be'.

But you're stuck in the then. And you have been for 40 fucking years.

Sad. So sad.

wesmorris
10-04-05, 01:01 PM
Shit I was thinking he was kid.

Yeah it's hard to stay quiet.

It's sad to see how pathetic it is.

Worse to know there's no hope for this one.

I wonder then, why does it live? How many suicide attempts have there been? How many people have tried to help? How many dollars in hospital bills? Gawd the list of questions is long, all for such a waste of everything metakron related. Yeah that's just too sad in too many ways. *sigh*

So metakron, why are you still alive? What keeps you going? Seems like it's your hate that does it. I wonder. Do you help other people suffer your horrible perspective? Are you now a great enabler? What do you do? Why do you do it?

MetaKron
10-04-05, 01:08 PM
It is obvious that you DIDN'T have it, and nobody said you did. Pay attention. The point of the derision toward you is, why don't you now? Especially considering your willingness (and mind you, you're the only one making threats on this page) to talk shit about "getting me within range of your fists".

Of course, you're not sane... so this is pointless. Pardon.

I cannot see your derision as sane. You think you have excuses for your rudeness. I don't. You seem to think that you are somehow superior to me. I don't. If you want to sling it, don't get whiny when you get it back. One of the outstanding characteristics of school bullies is that they expect to be able to give someone an infinite amount of shit, and he is supposed to take it, but if they get any of it back, they go ballistic. One you realize this, you realize that going nuclear on the bully is the right thing to do. He needs it by the truckload, increase his tolerance.

MetaKron
10-04-05, 01:08 PM
It's hard not to respond. Isn't it, Wes? Even though the guy is so disgusting, you just want to help him because he's so pathetic and the solution is so simple. But he just won't get it!

He's 45 years old or so. He was 6 in 1966 according to things he said in his debut hijacking (the psychopath thread). He'll never get his shit together.

And yet. The urge to point out to him the obviousness of his errors is overwhelming.



Fuck the 'had'. No one gives a shit about the 'had'. We're talking about the now. Not the then. The then is over. Done with. Unchangeable. (Unless, like Napoleon Dynamite's uncle Rico, you're going to buy a time travel device off the internet... (don't forget to put in the crystals...))

It's the now that matters. The now and the 'to be'.

But you're stuck in the then. And you have been for 40 fucking years.

Sad. So sad.


Please wipe the drool off your chin.

MetaKron
10-04-05, 01:18 PM
Shit I was thinking he was kid.

Yeah it's hard to stay quiet.

It's sad to see how pathetic it is.

Worse to know there's no hope for this one.

I wonder then, why does it live? How many suicide attempts have there been? How many people have tried to help? How many dollars in hospital bills? Gawd the list of questions is long, all for such a waste of everything metakron related. Yeah that's just too sad in too many ways. *sigh*

So metakron, why are you still alive? What keeps you going? Seems like it's your hate that does it. I wonder. Do you help other people suffer your horrible perspective? Are you now a great enabler? What do you do? Why do you do it?

You really need to rethink this if you can come up with the wherewithal to think with. There are reasons to tell my story other than wanting to kill myself. I wouldn't even bother if I thought I was the only one. If this planet had one billion male teenagers who never went through what I went through, there would be no job for me to do by telling my story. This is a pretty wild hypothesis because nothing like this can be singular. No one person can be targeted by the majority of the population of his age group if they did not already have the habit.

So I "hate" just because I tell my story, and this is bad? You who finds justification and who deliberately helps enable the abuse, you stand in judgement over me by using these words? How damned stupid do you think I am, Wes? Why do you keep trying to gull me? It's because you're putting one over on the audience, that's why.

wesmorris
10-04-05, 01:54 PM
No, it's that you seem to parlay the mode of victimization. You hate because you threaten people and see bullies all around, as Ophiolite summarized with your own words.

I'm just wondering what motivates you to continue living, given that it seems your world is nothing but pain. Of course, that's all I've seen of you. I presume there's more, but you haven't shown any of it... so I ask.

I didn't put a lot of effort into the thoughts there. Like I said I post what comes to mind. That was what came to mind. Have you any "insight" to offer?

Oh, and I think you're pretty damned stupid. However, I don't know what "gulling someone" means. What do I care what the audience thinks? Do you think I'm trying to "get my hooks into them" or something? I was just pondering your apparently pathetic self. Note that I said it seems like your hate, offering you the opportunity to correct that. Further, you haven't "told your story", you've just made riduculous claims over and over again, ignoring anything said to the contrary.

The thing about you seems to be that you're so tuned to abuse that is' really all you can see, regardless of what's actually happening. That's truly sad.

Do you love anyone? Does anyone love you?

MetaKron
10-04-05, 02:35 PM
Wes, has anyone ever said to you that you seem to have your head up a white Republican's ass? Isn't it just amazing that you have managed to become a white Republican? You may have hit your pinnacle of evolution there. Or is that your level of incompetence?

Don't get mad now. That's giving in to the bullies and the bigots, letting them have the advantage, and doing it to yourself.

To "gull" someone means to take advantage of his gullibility. To some people "gullible" means that the victim of the gulling can be persuaded to do something stupid after he's said "no" fifty times and gives in just so someone will stop pushing him. He's still to blame even after he has been persistently harassed and does it to stop the harassment.

You haven't thought this through and you don't understand. Your reactions do not come from anywhere that I care to listen to, I can tell you that. Not everyone can benefit from being pushed to the wall of pain. I've been there. All it gets you is the pain and you still lose your job and anything else they can take from you. So the solution you offer me is bogus. This does not in any way mean that I cannot be helped. You didn't offer help in the first place. Pretending that you did offer help isn't the same thing. Look up the word "pretend." I hope I don't have to define that one for you too.

If "tough love" fails and if being repeatedly slammed against a wall fails, a halfway intelligent species is not out of ways to help a victim by a long shot. It's just that this species isn't halfway intelligent. More than half its population has an IQ under 125. It's dumb and proud of it. This is why it likes solutions that include shoving victims of abuse around.

wesmorris
10-04-05, 02:46 PM
Oh, and yeah I can stand in judgement over you all day long. I'll even tell you how I feel about it. I haven't done anything to stop you from correcting me, nor would I. I haven't physically threatened you, nor would I. What difference does my judgement make to you that you don't allow? You give my words power. I just put them out there. Most of my admonishment of you is entirely due to the frustration with dealing with what I percieve to be a pathetic whiner who blames the world for his problems, refusing to accept any responsibility for anything. That shit makes me sick. I find it to be one of the lowest human characteristics, to blame everyone else for your problems.

You see, as you've been told by everyone here but the darth duendy... there's nothing that can be done to change the past. If I could, I'd take it away. I'd make those bullies stop it before they ever did this to you. I really wish I could but I don't know how to travel to the past to do it for you. All in all actually I'd be more impressed if you did it yourself (given the power to do so), but either way...

IMO, people of character learn to change their painful memories into strengths. You on the other hand, seem to have been consumed by them. They are a cancer that has turned your mind into a hateful, spiteful, cruel, assenine, stupid, disgusting lense of "it's everyone's fault but my own". That's why you seem so pathetic.

You can't get over it, so I wonder what value you offer yourself, or anyone. What do you value? What do others value in you? Do some people find you charming? Is your persona IRL more appealing than what you offer here? How is it that people are constantly sickened by you, or are they? Do you even know or care?

Bah, whatever. I knew I shouldn't have posted here again, as there is nothing to be gained from interacting with you besides despair. Since that's all you have, it's all you can offer. Am I wrong? Where is your hope?

Ophiolite
10-04-05, 03:12 PM
Metakron, you are really getting up my nose. You are offending me now. You are abusing me now. You have the audacity to sit there in your smug victim persona conveniently ignoring the fact that I too was the subject of bullying. How dare you ignore that you heartless pathetic beast. You claim to care about those who are bullied, but you will not offer support to a victim purely because that victim decided not to be bullied any more.
And how do you classify that act, that decision not to be bullied any more? One of the most important acts the entity calling himself Ophiolite ever undertook. An action and decision that changed his life immeasurably for the better. How do you choose to classify that life changing act that stopped the bullying for one person? Do you embrace the success? Do you applaud the courage?
No. Here's what you say about it Ė
ďTelling me that I had power to stop the bullying is wrong and it is abusive.Ē
We are all saying that you may well not have been able to stop the bullying when you were a child, but fuck it, you are a grown man now, possibly closer to death than to birth. Itís about time you got your shit together, and if you canít do that at least have the decency to stand up and applaud those who have.
Since I really donít expect you to pay any heed to one iota Iím saying Iíll just finish with a warm and sincerely felt ď**** off you dumb bastard.Ē
Have a really nice day. Damn, I really wish I meant that.

MetaKron
10-04-05, 03:15 PM
What makes you sick, Wes, is really none of my concern.

So I can't change the past, perhaps. Did it ever occur to you that I can change someone else's past? I'm in the past for that 40 year old who is 6 years old right now. If I can get people to decide to work against the bullies, I am going to save someone. You are in someone's past right now. You haven't shown me any evidence that you have any clue how to help someone who is 6 years old right now and being forced through the same program that I was. Things are not different now. 40 years from now there is another person much like me who is talking to someone who is much like you and that other person is just as clueless.

I offer my story as evidence. You jumped ahead of the program and have pretty much tried to destroy evidence here, which makes me feel like you are a bully who is in denial. Something is very screwy here. My story in this thread was intended to illustrate. I feel that you are working very hard to deny me the ability to illustrate my points and to try to push home just how urgent it is to understand. Do you have any idea of the concept of a solution that fits the problem? You try not to let me talk about the problem, and when I do talk about the problem, you fuck me. (Don't make me define "fuck.") I know who you are, all right, and I know who your mama is. (That's a metaphor, dillhole.) You even get pissy when I say that I have an equal right to speak.

Yes, my personal real life identity is considerably more charming than it is here. Here I bring out raw truth and try to get someone to see some of the mechanics underlying this great society, in the hope that someone will try to correct some of the problems. The truth is not always charming. It is often nauseating. When I go out to buy a soda and a candy bar, it is much more appropriate to give a cheery greeting to the storekeeper, maybe joke about the weather or something else, thank him, and try to be one of the people he likes to work for. People say I'm real nice, and it would break my heart to do anything to change their minds.

Wes, I'm not sure that you understand this setting. I am not in your living room. You come here voluntarily, on relatively safe ground, and it's a different place where different rules hold and different things happen. That's what it's for. I really do think that you have some growing up to do. You are probably at the minimum level of maturity that I will talk to at all, outside of blood relatives. About 20-22 years old, in college? Christ, half of them are bozos. It's almost a litmus test when they can read and write at all.

I am willing to say that the bad things that were done to me are their fault because those things are their fault, the same as it would be my fault if I went around punching little kids. The injuries I do to them would be my fault. The psychological aftereffects of this would also be my fault. If I actually did something like that, not only would I take responsibility for that, I would go overboard with self-flagellation. That last I've been working on because self-punishment should not exceed the actual crime.

One thing that I do demand is that others be held accountable for what they actually did. I not only get held accountable myself, but by some sort of twisted magical thing, I take the heat that belongs to several other people. If that makes you sick, maybe you've got something stuck in your craw and it squirms when you read something like this. I guess it evens out because those who apportion blame and punishment figure it evens out somewhere. Punish one person for all the deeds of ten people, punish all ten for their deeds, it adds up the same. Use what accounting you want because no one audits the books.

wesmorris
10-04-05, 03:16 PM
Ophiolite, you abusive bastard. How dare you! Your bullying knows no bounds! You are stupid. Duendy and metakron are smart. You are a disgusting republican.

I can't believe you'd sit in judgement of this total wuss. The audicity is sickening.

MetaKron
10-04-05, 03:17 PM
Metakron, you are really getting up my nose. You are offending me now. You are abusing me now. You have the audacity to sit there in your smug victim persona conveniently ignoring the fact that I too was the subject of bullying. How dare you ignore that you heartless pathetic beast. You claim to care about those who are bullied, but you will not offer support to a victim purely because that victim decided not to be bullied any more.


How does it feel? You weren't asking for my support. You were trying to kneecap me.

Ophiolite
10-04-05, 03:32 PM
Well, actually it evokes no feeling at all. The fact that you failed to understand the point simply confirms that you are not listening, and likely will never listen. How could something you said or didn't say actually hurt or harm me. For that to occur I would have to allow it to occur. I would have to allow it. Not you. You cannot determine how I feel, that choice lies only with me.
Let me put it in other words - if I valued your opinion I'd be offended.

Wes, mea culpa. It's true. As the years pass I really regret that we don't have Nixon to kick around anymore.

river-wind
10-04-05, 05:28 PM
For all those who feel anger and hate towards people who abused them; for all those who want justice for their wrongs, who want help in righting the world, I ask that you instead focus your efforts on helping the people who went through this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

or this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3496731.stm

or this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

or this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

or this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

or this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I

Many people in this world and in the history of this world have suffered more than you ever will. To focus on your own beatings, yesterday or 100 years ago, even in the auspices of helping children today, is horrifically selfish.
Bullying is a horrible thing to experience (and I do claim great understanding of how bad it can get), but at least your entire family and a majority of the adult men in your society were not gunned down, blown up, or torn to pieces in front of you. At least you did not have to abandon your own children or your home or country for fear of immediate death.

Abuse of those who are weaker is something which happens, and always has happened. It happens with people, it happens with animals. It happened in Rome, it happens today. There is much more to it than just bullying, and it is not limited to children.

It is our ability to recognize abuse and violence as unnecessary and choose to stop them that sets the human race apart from the plants and animals that we share this world with.


So.

How do we stop abuse? Not just limiting ourselves to the bullying which occurs in schools, how do we stop torture, rape, genocide, mutilation, murder, hate, anger? How do, as parts of the human race, identify the causes, and find solutions to these seemingly never ending problems?

Untill we succeed, I can't hope to provide the world with such wisdom as is the answer to this problem. But getting angery and calling each other names is most certainly a failed method from the begining.

wesmorris
10-04-05, 05:42 PM
What makes you sick, Wes, is really none of my concern.

So I can't change the past, perhaps. Did it ever occur to you that I can change someone else's past? I'm in the past for that 40 year old who is 6 years old right now. If I can get people to decide to work against the bullies, I am going to save someone.

That seem strange to me, given that anyone I associate with wouldn't have to think much about this. If there were bullying, it would be addressed. My kids aren't old enough for this to be an issue as it is, and if they are bullied - I'd do anything to keep it from escalating - mostly for the concern that they might turn out like you. I defend the helpless. You however, are not.

Now that I think about it, I'd wager you're a detriment if you actually try to council anyone who might be 6 in your previous predicament, given how you've turned out, what a horrible example you are. I'd much rather send them to Ophiolite, who should be freakin praised for overcoming that shit. I too have experienced it, but not much really. Just a couple of times a couple of people treated me that way but not much ever came of it.


You are in someone's past right now. You haven't shown me any evidence that you have any clue how to help someone who is 6 years old right now and being forced through the same program that I was.

Same to you. In fact, it seems that you've only shown they must understand they are a victim, and are helpless to avoid further bullying. That's why I find you so repulsive.


Things are not different now. 40 years from now there is another person much like me who is talking to someone who is much like you and that other person is just as clueless.

You seem clueless to me.


I offer my story as evidence.

Uhm... but you STILL haven't offered your story, jackass. You have provided NO EVIDENCE of anything besides that you're a huge wuss who won't take responsibility for anything, ever, and thinks everyone who think's you suck must necessarily be a bully too... which is exactly why you suck.


You jumped ahead of the program and have pretty much tried to destroy evidence here, which makes me feel like you are a bully who is in denial.

Which is a lie. You presented NO EVIDENCE, you dirty lying moron. You say "meds are a coverup for bullying" and offer NO support, not even your "story". But, you suck... so that's what I expect from you.


Something is very screwy here.

Yes, it's your inability to actually communicate. You don't listen. You presume and accuse. The last thing you're able to do is understand a damned thing that is said to you. Yet I waste my time. Ergh.


My story in this thread was intended to illustrate.

You don't even remember your own shit you asshat. You have told no story, you merely claim "i was bullied" and "you are a bully" and "there are sociopaths and agendas". Well big fucking deal man? Welcome to humanity. You are the type of idiot who wants humanity to conform to his expectation, refusing all the while to understand that it's your expectation that's fucked up.


I feel that you are working very hard to deny me the ability to illustrate my points and to try to push home just how urgent it is to understand.

What I am working very hard to do is FIND A POINT in anything you've said, or force you to make one by challenging what you say. It aint happening.


Do you have any idea of the concept of a solution that fits the problem?

Which problem exactly are you speaking of? Solving problems is what I do. Are you speaking of "bullying" or "adhd" or what? Do you really care if I have a proposition? Who am I kidding. You don't care in the slightest. Liar.


You try not to let me talk about the problem, and when I do talk about the problem, you fuck me.

I "fuck you"? How can I keep you from typing, "dillhole"? Man this is getting pretty fucking annoying. You can't understand the simplest shit. Talk all you like. How can I stop you? When you present stupidity though, as has been constant througout this thread, I will fucking call you on it. That you find it "offensive" or "stupid" or in any way negative simply doesn't matter to me. I have no respect for what you say, as you've said nothing worthy of it.


I know who you are, all right, and I know who your mama is. (That's a metaphor, dillhole.) You even get pissy when I say that I have an equal right to speak.

I'm simply flabbergasted at the depth of your self-involvment. It's fucking jaw-dropping. You don't know me, my momma, my wife, my kids, or a goddamned thing about me besides that I've not cut you any slack here. You have EVERY right to speak you idiot, I've said so myself. I have the same rights, der freakin duh. Are you sure you're not 6?


Yes, my personal real life identity is considerably more charming than it is here.

If I thought you were at all trustworthy, I'd take your word for it. I don't though, and won't. I suspect you're a "loner" because nobody can stand you. It's possible however that you're involved with the other helpless victims.

Look, you come across like a victim NOW. It hasn't shit to do with 40 years ago. It's right goddamned now. Who is victimizing you now? Are you responsible? Yes? No? I am right? I'm making you my victime because you are a powerless person who can't stop me. You can do nothing to make me respect you. I'm a bully and I just want to destroy you. Yes, that's the case for sure. Poor you. It sucks what happened to you, and it sucks worse that you can't get past it 40 fucking years later. You're stuck. It's arrested development. You're a helpless child in teh body of a 50 year old man. That's what's fucking sad. I refuse to indulge your helplessness. Here, there's nothing I can do for you but try to point out your problems. If I'm wrong, then so be it... but thus far you've done nothing but conform to the problems I've discussed ad nauseum at this point. You can't even have the common courtesy to respond point for point, which could actually minimize opportunities for misscommunication. Instead, you just broadly swipe at posts, hoping you'll touch something of relevance. Ass.


Here I bring out raw truth and try to get someone to see some of the mechanics underlying this great society, in the hope that someone will try to correct some of the problems.

What makes you think an emotionally damaged child in an adult's body like you knows anything of "truth" in the context of society? Surely you can tell us of the truth as you see it, but you're damaged goods. Your perspective is so distorted from your damage that it offers no one but yourself any insight into anything. Duendy agrees because it suits his agenda. He tries to garner allies because anyone remotely agreeing with his dimentia is a rare find indeed. LOL. "you have much insight". Gawd. I swear it's like a bad sci fi flick. "come to the dark side". Grrr. Man. You two are quite the pair. Maybe he's a she and you could find some action. Good luck with all that.


Wes, I'm not sure that you understand this setting.

You haven't paid any attention to a word I've said, so how would you know?


I am not in your living room. You come here voluntarily, on relatively safe ground, and it's a different place where different rules hold and different things happen. That's what it's for.

So you're captain obvious?


I really do think that you have some growing up to do. You are probably at the minimum level of maturity that I will talk to at all, outside of blood relatives. About 20-22 years old, in college? Christ, half of them are bozos. It's almost a litmus test when they can read and write at all.

Obviously you're not too bright. Unlike you, I don't try to remain anonymous. I'm me, I'm 36. I have a wife, 2 lovely kids, dog, cat, house, 2 jobs. Blah blah. I really don't think that your emotionally stunted self can relate, but then again how would I know? You're anonymous, and only present the worst of yourself.


I am willing to say that the bad things that were done to me are their fault because those things are their fault, the same as it would be my fault if I went around punching little kids.

Of course what they did is their fault, but that you still suffer it is your own. It's in your mind, for which you refuse responsibility.


The injuries I do to them would be my fault. The psychological aftereffects of this would also be my fault.

In terms of the afteraeffects, fault becomes a pointless matter... as "who is at fault" has little or nothing to do with solving the remaining problem.


If I actually did something like that, not only would I take responsibility for that, I would go overboard with self-flagellation.

So you're saying you wouldn't do something like that. Good for you, you're not a monster in that way, instead you've become a monster in quite another. Are you more than the shadow of your pain?


That last I've been working on because self-punishment should not exceed the actual crime.
I don't think you should be punished for having be "victimized"... your responsibilty would seem to me to be to refuse that, which of course you aren't doing by hanging onto it and being influenced by it in a way that jacks up your entire world-view, which is apparent in your seeking conspiratorial explanations and projecting that those who would strongly disagree with you are also bullies.


One thing that I do demand is that others be held accountable for what they actually did.

What have you done about that? Have you actually done so? You seem quick to blame Ophiolite, Invert and myself... so much so as to hope us "in range of your fists" (me at least). It's quite obvious that you have much unfinished business in that department, and are using empty rhetoric regarding who should take responsibility for what.


I not only get held accountable myself, but by some sort of twisted magical thing, I take the heat that belongs to several other people.

You're taking the heat because you asked for it. Your entry into this thread was "you two are full of shit and wes is a stupid asshole who doesn't give a fuck about anyone" (paraphrasing) You've made threats and come across as a total ass who blames anyone but himself for his predicament. You can't see that though can you? No no, anyone who thinks your attitude is shit because of what you've presented must be a bully. So sayeth your neverending misery eh?


If that makes you sick, maybe you've got something stuck in your craw and it squirms when you read something like this.

Helplessness and irresponsiblity in adults who could damned well be otherwise makes me somewhat sick. Presenatations like yours "I'm a victim", "I take no responsiblity for my life" indicate a sink rather than a source. Ultimately, you know that I don't know you from adam and have simply inferred based upon your presentation, expecting you to clarify where mistakes were made. So far, you've done little but re-enforce that inferences.


I guess it evens out because those who apportion blame and punishment figure it evens out somewhere.

Who is doing that? You? The bullies (like me)?


Punish one person for all the deeds of ten people, punish all ten for their deeds, it adds up the same. Use what accounting you want because no one audits the books.

Do you think you're being "punished" here in this thread?

You're reading words on a screen. Do they hurt you? Who's problem is that?... seriously? Do you think they are intended to hurt you? Really? Would you care if that weren't true? I don't think think you understand a damned thing about people and why they do what they do. To you it's all part of hurting you. Yes, you're self-involved. I don't think you could be otherwise, given how central your pain is to your position.

It'd be good if I'm wrong about that.

MetaKron
10-04-05, 05:43 PM
Well, actually it evokes no feeling at all. The fact that you failed to understand the point simply confirms that you are not listening, and likely will never listen. How could something you said or didn't say actually hurt or harm me. For that to occur I would have to allow it to occur. I would have to allow it. Not you. You cannot determine how I feel, that choice lies only with me.
Let me put it in other words - if I valued your opinion I'd be offended.

Wes, mea culpa. It's true. As the years pass I really regret that we don't have Nixon to kick around anymore.

Someone points a gun at you starts firing it at point blank range. Use your positive thinking to get out of that one.

MetaKron
10-04-05, 05:50 PM
For all those who feel anger and hate towards people who abused them; for all those who want justice for their wrongs, who want help in righting the world, I ask that you instead focus your efforts on helping the people who went through this: (and so on--MK)

How about we deal with those things that we can fix and have some measure of control over? We've got two people here who are obsessively busy with trying to flush the bullying discussion down the tubes, to the point of some extreme fanticism that I'd really rather not analyze without a book contract. I think they're a pair of douchebags. What do you think of them?

These things start with "small" things like a big kid pushing a little kid off the merry-go-round. If you ever want to treat this problem, you either have to give the kid refuge or raise the consciousness of the bully, and you have to know what you are doing yourself. The expedient thing is to deal with the one who you think you can get through to. Even more expedient is to threaten the victim to try to silence him, then decide that there's just something wrong with him when that doesn't work. That's a lot easier than dealing with physically precocious mental retards who you can never get through to. It is also worse than useless. It makes things worse. It helps the bully.

MetaKron
10-04-05, 05:59 PM
I've got to admire your persistence, Wes, but not very much. Persistence only does so much for you when it's a persistent denial of reality.

There's a face on your screen leering back at you. It is my face. It is laughing at you, mocking your denial, mocking your rage. You want that face, don't you? C'mon, you know you want it. Just cock that hand back and let it fly, right in the nose of that face on your screen. C'mon, be a man! Do it! Do it! Aaaagh!

Douchebag.

wesmorris
10-04-05, 06:04 PM
It's funny that you think my words are represenative of a want to hurt you. That too, is quite sad (apparently like everything about you).

Quantum Quack
10-04-05, 06:58 PM
Actually River wind has a point:

Lets get down to it Metakron:

What is your solution to the issue of bullying?
What causes people to bully?
How do you teach persons not to enjoy violent act agaist another?
Why is a bully a bully?

Roman
10-04-05, 07:06 PM
So I've followed this thread, and I've concluded that MetaKron is indeed crazy. It may not even have been his fault. It could very well have been years of environmental factors and a weak personality. For someone to be this broken, we can't just blame him.

Not until we hear his full story. Which really comes down to "there were some kids and they hit me and threw spitballs." Fuck, I've been hit before. I've had kids spit on me. I've been mocked and teased. But I also know the world is a cold and indifferent place and I'm not nearly important enough for it to be out to get me.

So how come I'm not [as] messed up?

Maybe MetaKron got something stuck up his pooper by an uncle or something.

MetaKron, you're going to have to excuse my mistreatment of you (I'm sure you used to that kind of treatment, by now), but I find you so [i]inept at arguing your point, I feel like I must!

You have given so little information or arguments, and so many vague claims and accusations.

I can assure you, while Wes and Invert probably do get a kick out of verbally stomping your pathetic self into the ground, they also have a genuine interest in your situation. Think of them as cold scientists who don't care about the subject, but investigate your weakness for the sake of knowledge.

I'm just a gawker at the sideshow who's curious about how such a broken human could exist.

But I see that bullying you to get you to give your story probably wasn't the right tact.

I urge everyone here to continue in this... discussion. A few posts seem to have made some leeway, though I really wish MetaKron could understand what wes and invert are saying.

MetaKron, if you could look beyond their hostility, and see that what you have told them is hardly substantial. You even lack anecdotal evidence. For the sake of yourself and your cause, perhaps you should focus less on passive-aggressively complaining, and form an actual agrument! As long as you have an argument, a point, and some evidence, you can get away with a lot more. Wes' and Invert's percieved bullying are a growing impatience on your refusal to engage them in debate.

Our interest and hostility is impersonal. We are interested in you for our own sake, not for dragging you down.

So please, share with us.


Oh, and this was cute:

Someone points a gun at you starts firing it at point blank range. Use your positive thinking to get out of that one.
Try using your negative thinking to get out of that one. Try using any thinking to get out of that one.

Quantum Quack
10-04-05, 08:28 PM
Look Guys,
I have had the sad experience of interviewing persons who have been the subject of extreme abuse. The abuse being so extreme that just listening to it makes you as a listener want to throw up, cringe and kill yourself for the shame of being associated even by race to the perpetrators [ human]
It is not for us to judge how a person reacts to extreme abuse. Some persons can rise above the abuse and get all "born again" but most can not.

Metakron has avoided discussing details for no doubt a very good reason. Possiby he feels that his experience will not get the acknowlegement he wants. That whilst it is devastating to him it may be pooh poohed as insignificant by others or what ever his reasons. Metakron is entitled to deal with his issues in the way he sees fit.

I tend to think that even the word "bully" is way to weak a word to describe what Metakron is cryptically alluding to.

I must admit I admire his tenacity and perserverance in coming to an internet forum and attempt to deal with his and others problems.

Just being able to use a computer is something that an great many people can't do and to put words to screen is impossible for just as many. Let alone share the suffering they are surviving regardless of whether the cause of it is illusionary or real.

Most persons will read Metakrons words and see distortion and craziness. Yet whilst this is true there is also sensitivity and articulation. Also compassion and creativity.

There is obviously a good intelligence involved here and a person of moral character with sound ethics. It is only his struggle that has the potential and is distorting his words and work.
MetaKron, sorry for talking over you, like as if you are a silent third party or something, but I can find no other way to express myself with out doing so.

I don't think you are crazy, I think that you are a sane person who is dealing with the insanity of his life. [ and doing surprisingly well ] This distinction needs to be highlighted I feel.

MetaKron
10-04-05, 11:01 PM
Thank you, Quantum Quack. That was a pretty fair assessment.

There is more than one reason not to bring all the details into this discussion. One of those is simple time and energy. There is a lot going on here and I have to prioritize. We weren't ready for a lot of the details yet, I don't think.

You can call some of my stuff distorted and crazy, but what was I responding to? A half-ass Rush Limbaugh clone who started the vituperative on this discussion thread by personally attacking someone who was rightly speaking his mind. Please excuse, but this as far as I know is an open forum. There are other opinions about the nature of the things called ADD and ADHD, and they need to be heard. The mainstream opinions are available everywhere. They don't need a cheering section to drown out alternative views, if the mainstream opinions have merit.

People have called me pathetic, loony, and prone to violence because I admit that pathetic, loony, and violent things have been done to me. Excuse me? Where does that come from? It's no wonder that Roman wants me to look past it. This is a lot like a code phrase for "forget that your own mother beat you with her fists when you were two years old and weighed about 30 pounds. If you remember it you are crazy and violent." You would think that I would not have to have had some special experience to understand what is wrong with the picture. What is done to people to make them unable to understand a few simple words? Also, what is done to people to get them to see something wrong with me just because I admit that it happened. What gets them to abuse me?

A lot of the words I have been reading from Wes and Ophiolite sound like the rhetoric used to deny that bullying ever took place and that there is something just wrong with me, as if the atom bomb testing in the 1960s had unfavorable effects on my genetic material or something. This to me seems more like a fantasy than the idea that I was injured by what they did to me, and idea that at least three or four people here want to bury as if it were radioactive waste. Very good metaphor here, actually, because radioactive waste is another problem caused by unwise methods for the generation of power.

wesmorris
10-05-05, 12:39 AM
Nuclear waste has a known decay rate. You on the other hand, `nurture your damage. You wallow in it. You seem to like it, and hate those who threaten it. Your pretty, pretty damage. "Everyone look! Everyone see! Look how sad I am! Pity me! It's YOUR FAULT you know."

I wasn't even born yet when you were being hurt. I had nothing to do with it. You don't seem to care about Ophiolite's pain? Why not? Did he not suffer enough? Do you want his suffering to be greater than yours? Is that what would make it fair? Do you want to hurt me? Should I or my family be killed to appease your sense of correctness? Make us suffer. Show us what it's like to hurt like you do. Would that make you feel better? Sure maybe for a minute, but then it wouldn't be good enough. You'd have to find someone else to hurt.. someone else who doesn't relate to the depths of your damage. You can make them pay for their innocense! Make them pay because YOU were so wronged. Yes the bullied becomes the bully, except this time it's justified right? It doesn't matter that we didn't even exist when you were hurt. It only matters that we weren't hurt and don't kiss your ass because you say it hurts. We are guilty of not being you, of not collapsing under the strain of our lives. What lives do we sub-humans have anyway?

I have no problem with you besides your attitude. I wish you no harm except a change of mind. If you want to call that harm, it's harm and I'm your bully.

When you jump into a thread defaming me and saying that myself and someone whom I respect are idiotic charlitans, you're a fool not to expect strong objection. You have been called pathetic, loony and prone to violence because you are. That is connected to your experience, but isn't the reason you are labeled as the asshole you are. You are damaged goods, and project your damage onto those you hate. As is obvious by your entrance, you hated me before ever coming into the thread. I have no idea what I've said to you in the past. Considering your venom, I'd guess I must have verbally bitch slapped you regarding something in politics, where I vaguely remember seeing your username. I'm not even sure about that. All I know of you is a username and a horrific personality introduced in this thread.

You use being bullied as a crutch to gain sympathy. I find that practice reprehensible, and your presentation utterly self-serving and devoid of worth.

Good luck getting your shit together.

MetaKron
10-05-05, 02:12 AM
Actually, Wes, you're making a whole lot more than you need to out of me telling you that I think you act like a bully and that you have one of the worst needs that I have seen in a while to go fuck yourself. You're pulling too hard at this. You need to give your lungs a break, let some of the smoke out, and use your brain just a little more. Where do you get this "kill your family" thing? I remember saying neutering, which the vet assures us will improve behavior, even if I am more afraid of you biting me than ****ing me.

No, I'm not buying into your latest rant here. You and Ophiolite, but especially you, have been getting worse and worse as this conversation goes on. If I say something I'm a psychopathic serial killer. If you say something your golden fecal matter doesn't stink.

The fact is, as I see it, that even if you don't think you are a bully, and you don't want to be a bully, you haven't seen into your own thoughts and actions well enough. You have a whole list of programmed responses in you that you need out if you actually want to achieve the goal of not being a bully. Then you have to find out what the alternative to being a bully is. It is a lot like teaching color to a blind man. I hope it's as if the blind man can acquire vision by teaching him a little at a time.

So what is it again that makes it correct for you to call me pathetic and all that? When you are not a bully, how does it occur to you? Your analyst must have a fascinating time of it. A lot of the stuff you say sounds like suggestive selling, too, but I'm not sure whether you are trying to sell me or the silent majority of the readers of this thread.

And I think you're making too much out of what I say when you accuse me of wallowing in it. Were you also the one who complained that I didn't provide enough details? Excuse me all to hell, but how am I going to tell the story? I wasn't falling for that kind of verbal trickery when I was 6 years old.

You don't feel danger from me because of anything you actually think that I might do. It's what I reveal that makes you feel danger. You feel so much danger that strange things are popping out of your head and you're seeing things that aren't there. Again, why in hell would you think things like I want to come kill your family because I think you might be a bully and I think I can prove it? Does everyone who thinks you're a dickhead do that? Do you think that I should do that? If it's the latter, you need to see someone, damn fast. I've been trying to tell you that you need some kind of help. There's no shame in that. Most of the human race does need some help. Anger management should be taught before it gets out of hand.

The reason I look like I'm obsessive-compulsive is because I know what is killing me and I think it's curable, but for the cure to have much effect, it has to be shared with the human race. It's a disease that you haven't heard of, and that so-called scientists and government hacks took pains to bury the knowledge of. This beam in your eye is also a stick up your ass, and don't ask how because I understand almost no hyper-dimensional geometry. You have an emotional plague like so many people do, and it makes you see things. This plague does not like to be cured. It does not like to be treated. It inspires mothers to beat children with their fists and people who should know better to become Republicans. It inspires people to see violent solutions to everything, even if the US had any significant number of cruise missiles left, which it doesn't. It inspires people to be unable to see the consequences of their actions. It probably even inspires people to talk in theatres. It keeps people from being able to see what is missing in themselves like, "We've got Iraq. What the bleep are we going to do with it now?" People who don't know how to raise children aren't going to get very far trying to violently tear down a country and rebuild it from scratch. It inspires people to become parts of religious death cults and to hide that knowledge themselves. It also, and very importantly, inspires people to attack and see evil in anyone who wants to change things for the better. This is where you are, Wes, and you need to stop fooling yourself.

Ophiolite
10-05-05, 02:13 AM
A lot of the words I have been reading from Wes and Ophiolite sound like the rhetoric used to deny that bullying ever took place .
Last request M. I ask it calmly and politely. I have repeatedly stated that I too was the victim of bullying. I have never denied that bullying takes place. I have never claimed that it is right. I have never stated that you were not bullied. Yet you have repeatedly come out with statements such as the one above. I really do find that offensive. It seems we are wrong to criticise you (you choose to call it criticism, so I'll agree for the moment), yet it seems to be acceptable for you to persistently make claims, as above, that are not valid. That are demonstrably invalid. That paint inaccurate pictures of my statements and my motiviations.
1. Why?
2. Is it, by your standards, fair?

duendy
10-05-05, 03:45 AM
dear oh deary me.....tis thread is unbelieveable.......if yo could hear yourselves morris, oph, and tothers who have joined the bully gang. ....it is quite a revelation

you actually ARE bullies. no fukin doubt about it. and as usual totally htpocritical too. this mans constant projection. you will droolingly lay into your 'victim' wit all manner of aggression, insult...etc and ten accuse HIM of it!.....read a post where old morris is calling MetaKron an 'it'...and goading him to kill himself

your eyes ae glazed and you have lost all reason and compassion. you are lost lot lost ....all we can do is watch you ravin with contempt

duendy
10-05-05, 03:55 AM
Actually River wind has a point:

Lets get down to it Metakron:

What is your solution to the issue of bullying?

the bully to stop bullying; that bullying should not be tolerated by the community; that the cuases of it should be faced.

What causes people to bully?

lack o self esteem; a sense of having no power, thus they choose to pick on someone they consider a 'victim'. tey will not face teir own demons, which would mean facing the environment tey are living in, as being majorly reponsible for breeding bullying behaviour.


How do you teach persons not to enjoy violent act agaist another?

dont know. they have to see it for temselves. in say a school situation, they need both punishment and lots of talk. bullies basically hae lost empathy. they begin enoyinghurting others. so they have to wake up to WHY......which means lookin within. THEY are hurting obviously so ant to hurt. if tey wewre cool, would they want to hurt? i dont think so

Why is a bully a bully?

most of the above. i went through a bullying phase at second school. my life was in a mess, but i couldn't mention it...it was taboo. children can get trly truly mindfuked

as i watch ADULTS doin their stuff here, it is like watching viscious little kids

MetaKron
10-05-05, 04:15 AM
OK, since you seem to actually be able to settle down to a real discussion, Ophiolite, I considered your abuse of Duendy a few pages back to place you firmly in the bully category especially since you backed Wes's verbal abuse. I think you need to back away from the use of these techniques. One thing I insist on also. If it's good for Wes, it's good for me. He's so grown up, let him set a better example here.

Do you actually claim that you were a victim of bullying after being head-butted once? If you did make that claim or I think you did, I'm going to give you another half page of the same that I've been giving you. You don't have to wallow in it, just give me a broad outline. Show me that you have even one clue about what I went through.

For me the abuse started around the time I was two years old. I can only guess whether my mother was having marital or financial difficulties, but she used me as a punching bag, a lot. When she flew into her rages, she would beat me for what seemed like hours, take me long past the point where I could see clearly, and she would often use her fists. I weighed 30 pounds, maybe less. If there was any way I could even contrive to put a pretty face on it, I would do that right now. Actually, maybe I have. How can I explain to you being forced to hyperventilate by being forced to scream as loudly as I physically could, with absolutely no chance of controlling it, and being kept in that state past blackout? It just went on and on past even the point of sadism. It was very much like she wanted to kill me and I just wouldn't die. She did many other things to hurt and humiliate me, as if to punish me for having suffered her beatings when I was small, or just to drive it in.

The abuse at school started when I was about six years old. I never learned why he started getting the gang after me, but they would grab me, shove me around the circle until I was disoriented, and he would kick me in the gut. They made this an almost daily ritual. There were some slack periods, but with variations, the routines like this kept up through most of high school. I almost never had any sort of opportunity to talk my way out of any of this, so there really was no use ever attempting it. You had better believe that when I got the chance with a certain someone, I gave him a pounding that he would never forget. It still wasn't that stressful for him. He was one who started the habit of accosting me every day after school one year and showing off to the world that he could beat me up and I could do nothing about it. What I really should have done was count the number of times that he did this and return the favor on an equal basis.

I have been punished many times for being in fights that I had no chance on Earth to prevent, and that I would have prevented if I could. My mother and the school forcibly gave the bullies charge of my life, to the extent that they would punish me severely for annoying them by smashing their fists with my face. If someone stole my hat, my mother would punish me. She would punish me if she found out that I was in a fight. I remember quite often freezing helplessly and starting to cry before a fight even started. They weren't really fights. Most of the time someone would just start pounding on me and keep it up until they decided to do something else. There were also many many head games. They put fears and phobias into me that I couldn't even find out about for a long time, and rooting out and destroying those fears and phobias is exhausting work. There also seems to be some sort of Azrael syndrome going. It is possible for them to trigger my body to try to die without me being able to do a thing about it. I learned this the hard way. They did it to me four times in two weeks. I think I had a heart attack a couple of months ago.

The reactions I have are not voluntary. They were placed there by intensive conditioning. Like any other disease, it takes time, energy, and resources to heal. The perpetrators actually took an opportunity to do me again when I was doing my level best to "get over it" and they made absolutely certain that I knew who was doing it and exactly how they were doing it. I can't give you details, and I could give a damn if you trust if I am telling the truth, but those details are proof against any kind of debunking short of deliberately ignoring evidence. I will not hold myself responsible for the deliberate sabotage of my work, deliberate emotional abuse, or the fact that the one who orchestrated it hid just around the corner and got other people to do his dirty work for him.

This is also just one more time that I have been given firm evidence that paranoids become that way because people force them to be that way. Just a brief outline: Put them in a surreal, painful situation and force them to deny the reality of that situation many, many times until it becomes impossible for them to deny it anymore. A man can go insane simply from that turning point when he can't deny it anymore. He is forced to not adapt to reality in any normal way, as it is presented to him. He is forced to take it all at once with no tools to deal with it.

MetaKron
10-05-05, 04:20 AM
Duendy, you're right, and I think at least one person's two inches is becoming three inches when they read this. A lot of bullies are like Wes acts, maybe actually believing that they can make someone get better by shoving them around like that. I've certainly known teachers like that, who not only seemed to think that shoving kids around and threatening them helped them, but also lying about what they are doing. It's hard to believe what I've been reading in this discussion. Why would some of these people even allow themselves to be seen talking like this?

duendy
10-05-05, 05:36 AM
WO, you've had a rough old time ofit mate. really sorry. Awful about your mum.....IF ythere is ONE person in tis world you needs to able to trust it is your mum

the total insensitivs maincially frequenting this thread-----who i see as like a gang spittin in your face, and oters joining the fray.....they dont LISTEN. watch and see.....they wont have one ounce of compassion (which means SHARED SUFFERING boys) for your sharing of your traumatic story. No, they'll begin laying into you again, tellin you to be a man like what they are....to fight any weakness--as they sees it

imagine tis scenario in real life. we are all sat in a circle, and are sharing our stories. one does, and it is really traumatic. so what do they do....? instead of listening...they throw more abuse at ya. one after ythe other lining up. how the livin fuck does tat help anything. it is disgusting behaviour. if you saw it in kids you would tell tem, but you expect adults to have learned at least SOME fukin thing. it is scary to tink they have kids themselves!

in answering Quack's questions about bullying, i failed to mention one crucial point. about 'scool'----------school can be likened to the microcosm of the sick culture you graduate out into. it is exactly formulated to dehumanize us!........so we get the environment where cildren are FORRCED to attend these institutions, and are taught by teachrs who are also victims of the system....what a scene hey.
soooo, we havelike an open prison. this is what i said that kicked all this aggressive shit off from them eariler int thread---------it is like a open prison, and ome of the bigger kids there, wit teir own homie problems are pissed of to be forced to go to tis dreaded place--wit its mind numbingly lieing boring drivel. so. who do tey pick on? the othe kids who ALSO hate theplace and have homie problems ...right.///////now. te school itselfis under pressure to achieve, so as to get punters brining their kids to it. so they want a GOOD IMAGE. tey dont wnatno revelations of BULLYING. so hey will cover it up, obfuscate, and BLAAME THE VICTIM, who is usually only one......annnnd obviusly, in teir calcuations and plans wont be much use in te soceiety they are priming the kids for, which is BASED on bullying and corruption of all kinds!....see the problem?

wesmorris
10-05-05, 09:48 AM
And here I'll make a broad statement that doesn't address a single thing you actually said, but suits my political sensibilities about what a piece of shit sub-human my argumentative opponent is. You are bad. I am good. You aren't even a person.

You'd better not react, or I'll do it again. Never will I engage you, I'll just take broads swipes and smirk. I'm not going to hear what you mean or care what you say to object to my swipes. I will marginalize and characterize you in a manner that suits the continuation of my agenda. That's not bullying either. You are dumb for saying so.

river-wind
10-05-05, 10:45 AM
imagine tis scenario in real life. we are all sat in a circle, and are sharing our stories. one does, and it is really traumatic. so what do they do....? instead of listening...they throw more abuse at ya. one after ythe other lining up. how the livin fuck does tat help anything. it is disgusting behaviour. if you saw it in kids you would tell tem, but you expect adults to have learned at least SOME fukin thing. it is scary to tink they have kids themselves!
Perhaps they line up because of their own experience with the story. They have found a way out, and are pained to see you repeating their old mistakes. They fear having to re-experience the horror through reading about you voluntarily relinquishing control of your life and actions to your attackers from years ago.
Perhaps their emotionally motivated response is because they have something useful to give you.


How about we deal with those things that we can fix and have some measure of control over?
You can deal with the symptoms in the hope of gaining some measure of short-term pacification. I'd rather suffer the short term in hopes of finding a cure; not just an aspirin.


Why do people impose their power on others?

duendy
10-05-05, 10:55 AM
Perhaps they line up because of their own experience with the story.

me:::now see what you do river-wind. you justify their disgusting behaviour

They have found a way out, and are pained to see you repeating their old mistakes

me:::the very expose of their behaviour shows quite clearrly to anyone with any intelligence, they haven't resolved ANYthing. Precisely why they are acting like tey are AND denying their abusive behaviour. Anyone wit real compassion, who had been to hell and bck and had learned some sensitivity wit anothers' suffering wouldn't act like they're acting.

They fear having to re-experience the horror through reading of your voluntary relinquishing of control to your attackers from years ago.

me:::errr who voluntarily reliquishes control??.......and teir hostile reaction shows me tey are STILL full ofplenty fear. tats why they are abusive. dont you see?

Perhaps their emotionally motivated response is because they have something useful to give you.

me:::tell em they can....keep it


You can deal with the symptoms in the hope of gaining some measure of short-term pacification. I'd rather suffer the short term in hopes of finding a cure; not just an aspirin.

me:::what does what you just said mean?

Why do people impose their power on others?
aks the sci-pitbulls that very question. but i wouldn't expect an honest answer!

Blue_UK
10-05-05, 12:01 PM
I'm pretty fucked up in an ADHD way (my A-Level results are 'ADD' :P) but I've learn to STFU about it!

From the looks of ppl in this thread I can't be that bad, but I do have major trouble being arsed to get assignments done and concentrate in uni.

MetaKron
10-05-05, 12:01 PM
And here I'll make a broad statement that doesn't address a single thing you actually said, but suits my political sensibilities about what a piece of shit sub-human my argumentative opponent is. You are bad. I am good. You aren't even a person.

You'd better not react, or I'll do it again. Never will I engage you, I'll just take broads swipes and smirk. I'm not going to hear what you mean or care what you say to object to my swipes. I will marginalize and characterize you in a manner that suits the continuation of my agenda. That's not bullying either. You are dumb for saying so.

At least now you're being more honest.

I'm sorry Wes, but "tough love" leads to sadism way too quickly, and you crossed that line before this conversation started. The next thing I know you're going to blame your behavior on me. I'm also pretty certain that the one who started the crap that pushed me out of my job would talk like you do, too. He's a real sweet talker.

river-wind
10-05-05, 12:23 PM
I'm asking everyone. Why do people impose their power on others? Does anyone have an idea on this topic?

Duendy: I used the word "perhaps" for a reason. Are you so sure of your view that you would not use such a clarification?

MetaKron
10-05-05, 12:23 PM
I'm pretty fucked up in an ADHD way (my A-Level results are 'ADD' :P) but I've learn to STFU about it!

From the looks of ppl in this thread I can't be that bad, but I do have major trouble being arsed to get assignments done and concentrate in uni.

Another side of any form of attention deficit is the inability of the teacher and the material to engage your interest. They don't know how to actually train people to pay attention and they don't usually know how to make their presentation interesting. Attention is both a skill and an art. It isn't something people learn by being blamed, punished, or drugged.

MetaKron
10-05-05, 12:24 PM
I'm asking everyone. Why do people impose their power on others? Does anyone have an idea on this topic?

Duendy: I used the word "perhaps" for a reason. Are you so sure of your view that you would not use such a clarification?

"Perhaps" is not clarification. It is equivocation.

wesmorris
10-05-05, 12:52 PM
And here I'll make a broad statement that doesn't address a single thing you actually said, but suits my political sensibilities about what a piece of shit sub-human my argumentative opponent is. You are bad. I am good. You aren't even a person.

You'd better not react, or I'll do it again. Never will I engage you, I'll just take broads swipes and smirk. I'm not going to hear what you mean or care what you say to object to my swipes. I will marginalize and characterize you in a manner that suits the continuation of my agenda. That's not bullying either. You are dumb for saying so.

river-wind
10-05-05, 01:43 PM
"Perhaps" is not clarification. It is equivocation.
I disagree. There is too much unknown in this world to be so certain of one's self to *not* use such terms.
To claim knowledge beyond uncertainty would suggest to me false confidence.

Ophiolite
10-05-05, 03:03 PM
Do you actually claim that you were a victim of bullying after being head-butted once? If you did make that claim or I think you did, I'm going to give you another half page of the same that I've been giving you. I take the time to read and re-read every word you have written in this thread, not once, not twice, but several times. I take the time to think of what words or approach may allow me to get through to you with what I think is perhaps (to use River-winds apposite word) useful, even life changing thoughts and advice. But it appears you cannot take the time to read what I write, properly, even once. Being head butted was not bullying, it was a simple physcial assault. I have no intention of detailing the many incidents of bullying I suffered - they are personal. I have already given more than I would be accustomed to give by even mentioning them at all. They were not as severe as what you describe, but nor are your traumas as severe as those suffered by others: its not a competition of 'who suffered the most'.
I can empathise and sympathise with what you have been through.
Why the fuck else do you think I am even bothering to try to offer advice, for which effort I am being continuously insulted by you and Duendy, having my character called into question, being berated for everything I say, being accused of all manner of evil thoughts and deeds. For fuck's sake you don't think that is bullying? You don't think you are bullying me? The only thing that stops it from being bullying is that I choose not to be bullied by you. I understand that those attacks come from pain. I therefore disregard the vitriol they contain. It stems from your pain. That's fine. I can overlook it, but please recognise that your actions in this respect are little different from those of a bully.
You have established a rapport with Duendy: that's good. If you find the exchanges of ideas and thoughts is helpfull I am pleased for you. However, over the course of almost a year I have interacted with Duendy on numerous occasions. I find her unpleasant. That is putting it mildly; I am sure she feels the same about me. I view that as a compliment. I am talking to you. I am not talking to Duendy. Please leave that issue out of our discussion.

You say you think you had a heart attack a couple of months ago. That's a pretty weird thing to say. Do I assume that since you have not confirmed this with a doctor that you do not trust any doctor to give you an honest diagnosis? If this is not the case then I am simply confused by your statement.

You said "Show me that you have even one clue about what I went through."
Well would this have any relevance - I get fired by an individual who has been out to get me for ten years and is finally in a position to do something about it. This happens during a massive downturn in my industry, so that no other jobs are available. I find another job - different industry -initially at an annual salary that does not even cover my mortgage payments. The owner of this business is a bully with a capital B. I feel I have to knuckle down because I have a wife and two young children to support. The abuse and criticism become so continual that I come close to a breakdown. I eventually got out. I just said 'enough is enough'. When I suggested the same technique to you, you said I was abusing you by offering that as a suggestion. By the way, the stress was enough that even once I got out I still managed to have two strokes. No, I guess you are right. I couldn't possibly know what you have been through. My best intentions just make matters worse for you. As I said earlier. Good luck. You'll probably believe it as much this time as you did then.

MetaKron
10-05-05, 03:15 PM
And here I'll make a broad statement that doesn't address a single thing you actually said, but suits my political sensibilities about what a piece of shit sub-human my argumentative opponent is. You are bad. I am good. You aren't even a person.

You'd better not react, or I'll do it again. Never will I engage you, I'll just take broads swipes and smirk. I'm not going to hear what you mean or care what you say to object to my swipes. I will marginalize and characterize you in a manner that suits the continuation of my agenda. That's not bullying either. You are dumb for saying so.

It looks like there's hope for you yet, Wes. When you gain more insight, you have a chance of actually using it.

invert_nexus
10-05-05, 03:46 PM
Muaha!
Pause...

MUAHAAHAHAAA!!!!!!

duendy
10-05-05, 03:48 PM
I'm pretty fucked up in an ADHD way (my A-Level results are 'ADD' :P) but I've learn to STFU about it!

From the looks of ppl in this thread I can't be that bad, but I do have major trouble being arsed to get assignments done and concentrate in uni.

HI...There is NOTHING at all wrong with you. you have been lied to. just cause it is a huge lie, supported by the very State doesn't mean it isn't a lie.
But dont just trst me, pease checkout what i say for yourself......obviously tough nutrition is good to look at. notice how th shiesters push their 'dope' at you, yet also promote foods and liquids full of crap...massive sugar, salt, godknows what cehmical additives....etc. SEE IT!....checkout Fred BAughmann. he is very good revealing this unprecidented evil scam

duendy
10-05-05, 04:06 PM
I'm asking everyone. Why do people impose their power on others? Does anyone have an idea on this topic?

me::: first for Opphilolite. i read whats happened for you, and it too sounds heavy. we ll of us got our problems as ytou know.....where i feel you go wrong, is that inSTEAD of sharing all that sooner wit MetKron, yo...layed into him wit abuse. surelyy uou must know at your age especially, such abuse can onl fuel resentment and disrespect, especially when someone's sharing really personal stuff...??

Duendy: I used the word "perhaps" for a reason. Are you so sure of your view that you would not use such a clarification?.

river-wond, i haven't a clue what your second question's about, but your main on.....why do people want power over others..........................cause, they haven't got power themSELVES so like vmpires they want power OVER you me her him, animals, Nature. the pattens is the same. no-power wantpower over. so we need ten to ask ourselves what power means don we?

MetaKron
10-05-05, 04:21 PM
Ophiolite, that was better. You got on the wrong side of me by aligning yourself with Wes, and the assumption that you and him formed a united front seemed like a valid one. The "get over it and stop whining" thing is offensive to me. I don't think that the vast majority of victims in my category can do that and they need something else. Also, to tell you the truth, I feel like all I needed this year was a job. I was ready to straighten out my life, work a plan, write my book, keep up the rent and cable TV and eat and eventually move up. Then the people where I worked used my good qualities against me. They forced me to exert myself much more than the job needed. They made it impossible for me to use my judgement, in ways that even violated company policy. They stressed me to the point that four times I felt massive chest pains, felt weak, and saw spots in front of my eyes. The pain in my chest lasted more than a weak, not as strong as during the crisis, and I still feel weakness and numbness. I am using exercise to try to recover, and I can walk five miles without getting terribly tired by now, but I still feel funny now and then. I didn't go to the doctor partly because I have no medical insurance and no money and partly because I didn't really believe that I had had a heart attack or was in that much danger. I was still on my feet.

duendy
10-05-05, 04:38 PM
metaKron, really sorry tp hear you having trouble with your health. my mum had a heart attack in 1963. a real shock. it inspired me to study bout nutrtion, cause especaillyin 1983 doctors knew jack shit about it!...still this ignorance exists. hospital food is absolute shite

i urge you to look into it if you haven't, cause all docs seem to do is push pills which in teir turn leech more nutrients outts your system......also drinking wate is good, and of course excercise as what you aredoing. and avoid stress when ever you can........where i live i hear ambulances a lot. people must be going down like flies......stress, shit food and drink.......

duendy
10-05-05, 04:40 PM
it wasn't 1963, it was 1983

GodlessEvil
10-05-05, 04:51 PM
Adhd and add was invented by drug companies to make lots of cash i reckon, making a small social problem a mental illness.
Most people should be on drugs considering how widespread the symptoms are:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Often does not give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities.

Often has trouble keeping attention on tasks or play activities.

Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.

Often does not follow instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand instructions).

Often has trouble organizing activities.

Often avoids, dislikes, or doesn't want to do things that take a lot of mental effort for a long period of time (such as schoolwork or homework).

Often loses things needed for tasks and activities (e.g. toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools).

Is often easily distracted.

Is often forgetful in daily activities.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

wesmorris
10-05-05, 05:18 PM
Ophiolite, that was better. You got on the wrong side of me by aligning yourself with Wes, and the assumption that you and him formed a united front seemed like a valid one.

A "conspiracy" eh?


The "get over it and stop whining" thing is offensive to me.

Hmm. Did you stop to consider the "you're full of shit and a sub-human" thing might be just as offensive? Personally I find the "everyone is out to get me and I take no responsibility for my situation" thing, simply insulting to humanity. You got screwed by a cruel mother and a sociopath or few. That sucks indeed, but IMO, you have the responsibility to get over it and saying "I can't" is simply indicative of lacking will. You CAN, you just won't, and at the drop of a hat you blame anyone you can for your problems. I notice below you didn't piss anyone off or perform poorly, THEY FORCED YOU to suck. I'm sorry you suck, but I'm not taking any responsiblity for it, especially if you can't bother. Why should I? Because you got screwed? Everyone has their adversity to overcome. I don't have the resources to feel bad for you, but you demand it of me anyway. No.


I don't think that the vast majority of victims in my category can do that and they need something else.

Well you were offered drugs, therapy, etc. Nothing worked? Are you really serious about getting better? IMO, you seriously can't/won't until you start taking responsibility for every aspect of your life, even if you can't control it. I doubt you can understand why even though I explained it in a post you ignored earlier. You can get a job if you can make an employer believe you're a good investment. If you are, that shouldn't be particularly difficult, though it might be time consuming.


Also, to tell you the truth, I feel like all I needed this year was a job. I was ready to straighten out my life, work a plan, write my book, keep up the rent and cable TV and eat and eventually move up. Then the people where I worked used my good qualities against me.

I simply find this difficult to believe given your apparent track record of blaming everyone for your problems. In doing so, you make YOUR problems someone elses problem in your own mind, and thus are and will continue to be helpless to do anything about them.


hey forced me to exert myself much more than the job needed.

Why would he do that? Are you sure you understand what "the job needed"? You think he was just bullying you eh? Is that it? Why am I bothering to ask and converse with you about anything when I know you're ignoring everything I say, or twisting it to fit your sub-human idea of me. Sigh.


They made it impossible for me to use my judgement, in ways that even violated company policy. They stressed me to the point that four times I felt massive chest pains, felt weak, and saw spots in front of my eyes.

They stressed you? So your stress is their responsibility? You seem like a lost cause. Always pointing the finger.

Maybe I've sold you short. Is there anything you take responsiblity for in your life? For instance, if I hit you in the face and you hit me back, are you responsible for having hit me? I take responsibility for instance, for my annoyance toward you in this thread. I don't apologize for it. It's human. Emotional reactions are part of life, and honestly it's my opinion that if words on a message board from people you don't even know actually hurt you, then you deserve to be hurt because YOU empowered it. You chose to.


The pain in my chest lasted more than a weak, not as strong as during the crisis, and I still feel weakness and numbness. I am using exercise to try to recover, and I can walk five miles without getting terribly tired by now, but I still feel funny now and then.

Well it's good that you've still got some fight in you. If you'd just improve your attitude I think you'd be fine. I wonder if you're able. It would seem unlikely given a 40 year mental habit, than one could overcome it.

MetaKron
10-05-05, 05:21 PM
metaKron, really sorry tp hear you having trouble with your health. my mum had a heart attack in 1963. a real shock. it inspired me to study bout nutrtion, cause especaillyin 1983 doctors knew jack shit about it!...still this ignorance exists. hospital food is absolute shite

i urge you to look into it if you haven't, cause all docs seem to do is push pills which in teir turn leech more nutrients outts your system......also drinking wate is good, and of course excercise as what you aredoing. and avoid stress when ever you can........where i live i hear ambulances a lot. people must be going down like flies......stress, shit food and drink.......

I do appreciate the suggestion very much. I am doing what I can afford to already, which may be why I'm still standing. Some of the things I take seem to mitigate all sorts of damage, and that's worth another thread itself. Physically, I could be better, could be worse, but I don't feel up to another episode yet.

wesmorris
10-05-05, 05:31 PM
Adhd and add was invented by drug companies to make lots of cash i reckon, making a small social problem a mental illness.

Actually I was talking to a Psychiatrist one day about that very thing. What he said made perfect sense. It's all statistical. If I can find a statistical grouping of characteristics x, y and z... I can call it a "disorder" and design drugs to address it. Drug companies, like any other company for the most part - are in business to make money. In general, the best way to assure the capacity to make money in the long term is to build a good reputation as a company for selling quality products. Of course that's not the only way.. but regardless.

Note that over the last 30 years, corporal punishment and basically any negative re-enforcement of children's behavior in schools has been attacked through the court systems by people like duendy and metakron. Unfortunately, it was the only way the people involved understood how to maintain discipline in the classroom. As more and more lawsuits caused school districts to write panicked, reactionary policy to limit the scope of a teacher's actions and authority... other solutions had to be found for their problems. Enter the drug companies.

While I don't think that corporal punishment is necessarily a good idea in schools, it was the only thing they had going. Not every teach is mentally equipped to handle the disciplinary angle of a classroom. While the threat of physical punishment is crude, it was something. Now the teachers can't say anything to a student without the fear of losing their career for having done so. So what do you want them to do? You can't magically give every teacher in the world the ability to manage a bunch of potentially unruly children, so...

I don't think there's a good answer to this question at this time. Tryign to teach all the teachers proper child handling skills is a humongous resource drain. Bah. I wish I had a solution to the problem, but I don't think there are enough people who already have the skillz in that area that can also teach and would be willing to work for the pay offered to teachers. It's a tough scenario. It would seem like the most effective solution would be to take a step backwards by changing some laws to allow that stuff again I guess, though I don't really like the idea. It seems the most efficient.

Ideas?

GodlessEvil
10-05-05, 06:26 PM
I think corporal punishment (although crude) is effective it worked for my parents and worked for their parents, they did not behave like drunken yobs never bothering with schoolwork and stuff.
I mean yeah they would have done bad stuff but face consequences, these days people use "mental illness" as an excuse "oh it is not his fault he has a condition"
well a whip, belt or caine will soon fix that problem LOL.

Unless you are retarded or *actually* mental, everything else is in a sense psychosomatic, made by societys lack of real control, kids can by contrast to days of old get away with anything, whenever control ideas come along they are destroyed by some pinko.
Parents are not at fault really, it is the lack of freedom a parent has is the problem.
People will go on about child abuse, but some of it could be out of sheer frustration, others are isolated cases blown out of proportion as if every parent is gonna abuse their children.

MetaKron
10-05-05, 06:40 PM
Wes, your kind of help is ineffective for people who really need help and you sound like you just want to shove it down my throat for my own good. Step back and think. I know you've got brains. Act like it.

Ophiolite
10-05-05, 06:46 PM
Ophiolite, that was better. Oh, dear me. MetaKron. what are we to do. I reveal some details of my exposure to adult bullying that probably contributed to my present condition of health and wherein I allowed myself to be treated as a victim because I thought it was necessary in order to support my family. Your response: that was better.
Ophiolite shows he was capable of great weakness and you think telling you about it was better. What the **** was better about that. I'm the same person who gave you advice you wouldn't listen to and that you called abusive. The advice was based upon those experiences that when recounted lead you to say 'that was better', yet you still choose to ignore the advice, and as far as I can tell still consider it abusive.
I am staggered by that reply.
I think it best if I walk away now. I hope the health issue is just tension and stress and not a genuine heart problem. As described, it could be either. Focus on getting the job. But please, recognise that we may not have total control of our own destiny, but we sure as heck can control some of it, and we can always control how we see ourselves.

wesmorris
10-05-05, 08:13 PM
Wes, your kind of help is ineffective for people who really need help and you sound like you just want to shove it down my throat for my own good.

All I want in this regard is for you to stop blaming everyone else for your troubles. In doing so, you may find that people are much more willing and motivated to actually help you help yourself. Even if you don't, you'll still start to rely on yourself to do what has to be done to solve your problems. I give you more credit than you give yourself in that I think you CAN solve your problems, no matter how fucked up they seem to you. That means about squat unless you agree, which you don't, which keeps you in a predicament (from my point of view). So long as you see a problem as unsolvable, it most certainly will be.

I wish I could actually be of help to you and find it annoying and frustrating that you can't find a way to let me. Of course you are in no way bound to do so, but villifying me and thinking of me as a bully and subhuman only re-enforces an already corrupted, bleak, uttlerly self-defeating world view. I have a hard time stomaching people who won't give themselves a chance. It's not that I want you harmed. I want you healed, so you can truly heal others rather than letting your helplessness meme spread.


Step back and think. I know you've got brains. Act like it.

I don't act except to amuse. I simply AM. I do. I'm here, now, in the moment, being me... accepting what's happening and dealing with it in the way that seems right. I can't help it if you can't see my brains. I'm not going to purposefully crack my skull open for you to peek in.

And I always step back and think. It's my nature.

PS: Regarding the above, it's simple economics. Nobody wants to invest in anything in which their investment is sure to be lost. By putting time into YOU, people express that they believe in you as capable of finding a way to self-reliance. If you do offer no return on that belief, people will generally lose interest over time.. realizing that their efforts are in vain and there's nothing that can be done to help you, as you don't believe you can be helped. You DO need the simple direction I and others have to offer you only in terms of becoming self reliant. Your rejection of it only validates the point. After that, what I have to say may or may not carry any weight with you. But what I'm saying now, should if you have any hope whatsoever of eventual recovery. It would seem to me that the first step is just thinking it possible that you can recover, of your own doing. Don't sell yourself short. Believe in yourself, you bastard.

At least that's how I see it.

Quantum Quack
10-05-05, 10:15 PM
I'm asking everyone. Why do people impose their power on others? Does anyone have an idea on this topic?

Duendy: I used the word "perhaps" for a reason. Are you so sure of your view that you would not use such a clarification?

Because to do so satiates their sense of futility in life. It demonstrates how powerless they are and by taking away someone elses power they achieve a false sense of value.

Metakron has something that the bully wants to take away. He has something that they can't possiby get on their own.

They use their power on others becasue they are powerless and by doing so they gain power. It is their wretched lives and their own conditioning that has created a self esteem so low that they must take the self esteem from others.
People with low self esteem will by the very nature of the problem prop themselves up at the expense of others. Metakron is providing them with that prop.

If metakron is able to deny them that prop then the abuse will stop.

Unfortunately the conditioning can be so entrenched that the abused is caught up in their own viscious self esteem cycle where by self sabotage and self defeat are endlessly replaying in their lives thus self justifying a continuous re-cycling of self abuse.

A bit like punching yourself in the face all the time.

The most important thing is that it is Metakrons disgust at these abuses that continues to fuel the abuse.

In my own struggle with abuse what I normally do is say to myself that no one can possible abuse me more than I can myself.

I say "come on give me your best shot!!!" you are impotent to surpass the abuse I have already endured and survivied. "Hit me with everything you can muster and I will still laugh in your face because I am the Prince of surviving abuse. I can never be a two year old child again."

We are all born to suffer, some suffer more than others. The abuser only has power if he knows the abused is revolted by the abuse. And if the abuse is like a tiickling itch then the abuser has lost his power.
So to defeat the abuser is to know that they can not even come close to the abuse already endured.

Quantum Quack
10-05-05, 10:24 PM
Metakron, maybe you would care to join me in another thread about the genisis of violence. The genisis of bullying and maybe discuss it from three perspectives, the bully, the victim, the witness?

What do you say?

wesmorris
10-05-05, 11:09 PM
Well said double Q.

I take slight issue to say we are born to suffer. It seems more in the spirit of the message to say we are all born to overcome suffering.

Oh and regarding your post directly above, breaking into into the categories is probably right, but any of the three can consider any of the other two any of the three, basically due to an inability to relate to the scenario as seen from other parties.

Do you think the bully and the victim end up playing different roles at different times based on circumstance? In the times when the bullying isn't directly present, are they then the witness? It is generally a one-way transition from victim to bully? It's interesting to contemplate this in the context of memes, as this one is unwillingly physically re-enforced in order to assure its transmission. It's like some sort of mental super-virus. Funky.

Quantum Quack
10-06-05, 02:08 AM
Well said double Q.

I take slight issue to say we are born to suffer. It seems more in the spirit of the message to say we are all born to overcome suffering.

Oh and regarding your post directly above, breaking into into the categories is probably right, but any of the three can consider any of the other two any of the three, basically due to an inability to relate to the scenario as seen from other parties.

Do you think the bully and the victim end up playing different roles at different times based on circumstance? In the times when the bullying isn't directly present, are they then the witness? It is generally a one-way transition from victim to bully? It's interesting to contemplate this in the context of memes, as this one is unwillingly physically re-enforced in order to assure its transmission. It's like some sort of mental super-virus. Funky.
to use a virus analogy could be useful, as it allows a certain detachment from the subject which is normally very emotionally laden.

I think you have raised some valid points and a discussion in a thread devoted to it would be beneficial I reckon.

Quantum Quack
10-06-05, 03:53 AM
I just recalled some thoughts on the subject from a while ago that I think may be very relevant and often forgotten.

Underpinning most violent acts is a sense of injustice. The violent person has aquired in his life what he feels is a debt owed to him because of injustice in the past carried out against him/her. In the attempt to gain compensation for an earlier injustice [ usually child abuse ] the person will resort to violence driven by a deep seated anger at the injustices experienced earlier.
For example a child that has been the subject of abuse will rebell against society as a way of attempting to balance an injustice that that society allowed to be carrie out. Seeking to avenge himself against an indifferent society, thus making them take notice of their crime of indifference.

Injustice seems to have one outcome and that is anger, this anger in turn tends to promote violence that is justified by the person being violent.

An acute sense of justice is maintained and any injustice real or imaginary will invoke violence.
A sort of acute justice monitoring psychological state exists making the person very sensitive to this issue. Any perceived injustice triggers an angry response. Especially if it is percieved as injustice towards that particular person.

This thread is a good example of the cycle of injustice sensitivity. IMO [ by all posters including myself and possibly excluding the original thread starter Brutus]
From my research in the mental health field acute injustice consciousness is very prevalent amongst psychiatric inpatients. I might add that the emphasis is extremely focussed upon injustice and not Justice. Justice being delegated to a position of lesser importance in the victims perception. Focussing on only injustices and not Justice(s) sort of thing.

In some ways terrorism has it's primary genisis in injustice, imaginary or real.

Any way I just thought I'd share my recollection of thoughts on the subject.

duendy
10-06-05, 06:04 AM
woooooo thereeee wiat a moment. what is this! QQ is givng us a synopsis about thepossibilities of the origins of the bulyying impulse and violence in general, and een talks about 'psychiatric patients' wit out any reponse to the fact tat all that ISviolenceby a mental health authority!!!......AND when i first read QQ...apost or two ago talking about how bullies want power over others cause tey are powerless i assumed he wasincluding te bullies HERE.............! ...errr rmmber, who have been attacking MetaKron wit abusively in te face verbiage. bu apparently no. so....howt fuck ca we get into this subject if people start of blind andnot being honest? get me??,

and wes morris, if yer listening, dont put wordsinto my mouth. yu assume i likeother 'pinkos' p 'pussies' a i am sur you'd eloquently label people who dont agree wid your fascist self--would not want to see kids slapped in school

well, dude, when i was at school it was allowed and pissed me off big stlye. i was a rebel, andwould havebeen WELL drugged if tis peudobullshitehad been around then

listen....i know its hard for you, but try. i am questioning NOT druggin or slapping, but te very INSTITUION of school. got it now?

Ophiolite
10-06-05, 06:49 AM
I was going to post the following:
Duendy, please piss off. We are having a serious discussion here.Self righteous, delusional hypocrites, such as yourself are not welcome. I am sick to my eye teeth of you turning every single post into a a diatribe against the establisment, big business, the conspiracy merchants, the schools, the medical profession, the politicians. Did I miss anyone out? I'm sure I did. You are so filled with hate for just about every segment of humanity (except of course the children, and victims of bullying) I imagine you find it difficult to leave your home with the weight of the baggage. Could you please give it bloody rest. With your refusal to use proper quotes, your reactive launch into vitriolic diatribe at the sight of almost any post, your persistence in typing almost unintelligble communications, and host of other quirks, you turn out to be one of the biggest bullies on the site.
At the end of it all you come across as grossly unattractive.
Then I thought that to post that would be to allow Duendy to win, by turning me into a victim of my own anger against her dehumanising sentiments. So I decided not to. ;)

duendy
10-06-05, 07:05 AM
well i am not s up the arse asyou are, so i will make it plain. Ophilolite or whatver yer silly ruddy name is....?piss off!

but will he listen? no.

look you moth eaten old grump. listen to what's being said and stop projecting yor crap onto others/ now cant get plainer than that can i?

MetaKron
10-06-05, 08:27 AM
Both Wes and Ophiolite have put a lot of excess verbiage into explaining that their verbal abuse is not verbal abuse, which is another way of saying that theirs doesn't stink. Right now I'm having a hard time believing Ophiolite's story about having had strokes.

QQ, a lot depends on how much energy I have over the next few days. I had probably better get someone to at least listen to my heart. The one piece of evidence that I have against the heart attack theory is that as nearly as I could tell, my heart rate did not change during the episodes, and I checked. Maybe also I am too sensitive to the abuse. What someone refuses to understand is that psychological abuse, especially right there and then, can be just as debilitating. If I had Wes on the hot seat somewhere and gave him some psychological abuse, he would blow up and he would have no trouble blaming it on me. The best self control in the world can be undermined by physical exhaustion, pain, illness, and injury. Sometimes the only way to save yourself is to leave the trap.

I don't know how much energy I am going to have to continue with debates. Even with adequate food, more than adequate rest, appropriate exercise, I am having trouble concentrating and sometimes having a lot of trouble sitting up in this chair. I have a project that I need to use what energy I have on, and I don't know if I can complete it with or without all of the time and energy that I have left. I am not a particularly diligent worker on this thing lately, even if I did work myself to death trying to keep up with the job so that I might be able to keep that job.

Control of a victim by a bully is a reality. It is very very difficult to break. There is some sort of real conspiracy going on. If a bully finds a victim who is doing his best to break out of the mold, he might try to force that victim back into that mold. The means that the bully might use can be pretty drastic. One of them dropped a box on my head weighing 25 pounds from a height of just about 7 feet. This means it had one and a half feet to drop, soft impact of about 37 foot pounds. This isn't even as much impact as a half-hearted thump on top of the head with a fist. He made it look like I had handed the box up to him and just let it go to soon, but it came down with a force that made it feel like my brain had exploded out of my ears and eyeballs. My eyes rolled up in my head and vibrated. Witnesses were scared by what they saw. This same genius jumped down the ladder and took the box away when I tried to sit down on it too, and I had to hold myself up from falling while on unsteady feet. It was more than three weeks before I could move without my head feeling like it was going to fall off, and I took verbal abuse for moving slowly, and I had to work almost every day of that three weeks. That was the beginning of the end of a job where I was doing well and saving money before.

I'm done with dealing with the denial that psychological damage is inflicted by bullies. Those two here are going to screw me no matter what and try to make it look like they're the good guys, just like the people who did me at work. Even stating the case that the bullies often use physical reinforcement screws me, because they will turn right around and say that it means that the ones who don't can't damage me at all.

wesmorris
10-06-05, 08:47 AM
Hmm.. Ophiolite, I think there's a flip side to the coin you're putting on table. I don't know how serious you are about being a "victim of your own anger", but IMO, there's no such thing. Anger is a very natural, human thing. The trick is releasing it constructively. If you end up bottling up all your anger in an attempt to compensate for your previous reactions to being bullied, you've been manipulated into another form of dehumanization.

wesmorris
10-06-05, 09:11 AM
Metakron, you've been sorely infected with a mental virus that has forever altered your perception. The only way I understand that your perception can change is if you begin to question its validity. You're stuck in a catch 22, in which your perception is "the only thing that keeps you alive", which you implicitely trust... but it's infected by the virus that was pounded into you as a child. It lies to you, but you refuse to see it because as far as you see it, it's all you have. It's the only thing that cares about you (your sense of injustice), and constantly fortifies your ego by vindicating you of responsibility for anything. What a self-destructive cycle. That sucks.

Ophiolite
10-06-05, 09:42 AM
Wes, I agree that anger is natural, but that does not necessarily mean it is always good. I certainly don't think anger should be bottled up. What I think is far more effective is not to become angry in the first place.
Anger is typically a reaction. Humans are at their best when they are pro-active. I appreciate that may sound as if I am drifitng into jargon, but these are terms I am comfortable with when explaining my views in this area.
When I hear or see something that could make me angry I actually have a choice facing me. I can choose to be angered by it, or I can choose not to be angered by it. In either event I can also choose to try to do something about it, or not. So I have a matrix of four possibilities.
1. Angry and do nothing (bottling up)
2. Angry and do something (negative reaction)
3. Not angry and do nothing (acceptance)
4. Not angry and do something (positive reaction)
I favour 3 or 4 depending upon the character of the event.

river-wind
10-06-05, 09:43 AM
HI...There is NOTHING at all wrong with you. you have been lied to. just cause it is a huge lie, supported by the very State doesn't mean it isn't a lie.
But dont just trst me, pease checkout what i say for yourself......obviously tough nutrition is good to look at. notice how th shiesters push their 'dope' at you, yet also promote foods and liquids full of crap...massive sugar, salt, godknows what cehmical additives....etc. SEE IT!....checkout Fred BAughmann. he is very good revealing this unprecidented evil scam
I would be careful of such advice without knowing more about the case, but you are correct in your details. Diet plays a huge part in ADHD symptoms; managing sugar intake, esp as a child appears to have a greater effect, in many cases, than does medication.



.
river-wond, i haven't a clue what your second question's about, but your main on.....why do people want power over others..........................cause, they haven't got power themSELVES so like vmpires they want power OVER you me her him, animals, Nature. the pattens is the same. no-power wantpower over. so we need ten to ask ourselves what power means don we?
very wise.

So what can be done for these poor poweerless souls such that they no longer feel a need to prey on others? Is there anything? Or is it their nature to feed?

edit - and yes, the question "what is power" is a good one, though I don't want to get into it quite yet. It is a large question, and I think it would stall us in an uneeded way at the moment. The bully's understanding of power is clear enough for the purposes of this discussion - would you agree?





Control of a victim by a bully is a reality. It is very very difficult to break.
Correct. Difficult. We never claimed that it would be easy.



edit: failed to refresh, and just read QQ comments. I fully agree; very informative. My question to duendy is trying to focus on a more constructive method for dealing with 'bullies' - not just pulling the rug out from under them by ceasing to react. While that solves your problem, it tends to make the bully simply find someone else to focus on.

duendy
10-06-05, 10:03 AM
Metakron, you've been sorely infected with a mental virus that has forever altered your perception.

me:::is that so

The only way I understand that your perception can change is if you begin to question its validity.

me:::is that so

You're stuck in a catch 22, in which your perception is "the only thing that keeps you alive", which you implicitely trust... but it's infected by the virus that was pounded into you as a child.

me:::is that so

It lies to you, but you refuse to see it because as far as you see it, it's all you have.

me:::is that so

It's the only thing that cares about you (your sense of injustice), and constantly fortifies your ego by vindicating you of responsibility for anything. What a self-destructive cycle. That sucks.


no, what sucks ...is your psychobabble

duendy
10-06-05, 10:10 AM
I would be careful of such advice without knowing more about the case, but you are correct in your details. Diet plays a huge part in ADHD symptoms; managing sugar intake, esp as a child appears to have a great effect in many cases than does medication.

me::all we do know is the lbels such as 'ADHD' are fraudulent.


very wise.

So what can be done for these poor poweerless souls such that they no longer feel a need to prey on others? Is there anything? Or is it their nature to feed?

me::is there anything is the question, and a big one.
i would recommend proper education, along with ecstatic inspiration. proper education would mean ecoliteracy, and understanding mythology, etc.....and ecstatic inspiration wuldinvolve the freedom to use psychedelics intelligently

edit - and yes, the question "what is power" is a good one, though I don't want to get into it quite yet. It is a large question, and I think it would stall us in an uneeded way at the moment. The bully's understanding of power is clear enough for the purposes of this discussion - would you agree?


me:::iftat's the way you wanna play it, yes


Correct. Difficult. We never claimed that it would be easy.

me:::it is diffiult cause of the oppessive forces all round. real solid cell waiting for the one who tries freedom!


edit: failed to refresh, and just read QQ comments. I fully agree; very informative. My question to duendy is trying to focus on a more constructive method for dealing with 'bullies' - not just pulling the rug out from under them by ceasing to react. While that solves your problem, it tends to make the bully simply find someone else to focus on.

@@@@@@@@@@@PPPPPPPPPPPPQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ()

wesmorris
10-06-05, 10:35 AM
no, what sucks ...is your psychobabble

me:::is that so

Serb05
10-06-05, 10:45 AM
Hmmm... Do i have ADHD? i cant be fucked listening to anything in Math class and often find myself thinking of my fellow female class mates naked, in a bath... mmm...

As i was saying, i think ADHD/ADD is overrated bullshit. Just because there happen to be many boring people and subjects in this world does not mean that there is something wrong with your brain. I find myself spending hours at a certain activity, trying to perfect my skills/design. I don't think its anything out of the ordinary, and i don't think you should either. Fuck the pills... shove em up your doctor's ass, for all you know he's giving you carved chalk, and the ADHD is all in your head.

river-wind
10-06-05, 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by river-wind
I would be careful of such advice without knowing more about the case, but you are correct in your details. Diet plays a huge part in ADHD symptoms; managing sugar intake, esp as a child appears to have a great effect in many cases than does medication.

me::all we do know is the lbels such as 'ADHD' are fraudulent.

We do? I don't see that we have reached a logical basis for that claim yet. We have in front of us a number of possible factors which could be effecting the symptoms involved - diet, exersize, childhood, genetics. Diet and exersize are the only two which can largely be altered on a whim. Childhood and genetics have not yet been wiped off the board; at least not in this thread.

Can you be sure that genetics are not a factor? Can you be sure that MetaKron's hypothesis of chilhood conditioning is not a factor?




So what can be done for these poor poweerless souls such that they no longer feel a need to prey on others? Is there anything? Or is it their nature to feed?

me::is there anything is the question, and a big one.
i would recommend proper education, along with ecstatic inspiration. proper education would mean ecoliteracy, and understanding mythology, etc.....and ecstatic inspiration wuldinvolve the freedom to use psychedelics intelligently

I agree. Proper education seems to be the most effective tool in battling violence.




Correct. Difficult. We never claimed that it would be easy.

me:::it is diffiult cause of the oppessive forces all round. real solid cell waiting for the one who tries freedom!

You are right. Learning to walk through yourself is the most difficult thing in life, IME.

Roman
10-06-05, 10:52 AM
the ADHD is all in your head.

No... it's in your leg.

duendy
10-06-05, 11:06 AM
We do? I don't see that we have reached a logical basis for that claim yet. We have in front of us a number of possible factors which could be effecting the symptoms involved - diet, exersize, childhood, genetics.

me::which is why i recommend you chackout Fred Baughmann who will i am sure convince you. He also has a personal experience with the whole ADHD scam in hat his child hd been diagnosed with it
Also, 'genetic'? tis is always resoryed to by groups who seek to demonize another group, or individual. s say a child might be 'highly strung' cause his mum, dad was. so. it that a disease?......what about the mood of apathy? is that genetic. you hear of people who just want to shop shop shop. isthat? do you get me? who are the officals to tell us what is normal. those who apathetically provide the military industrial complex and all that evil. who BELIEVE the slimy politicans. are they genetically wrong. do you see? of course someone who is a killer, and/or does harm needs locking up. but is it a DISEASE as the pharma led shrinks tell us other forms of behaviour not acceptable is a disease. theyactually have done in the past. ie., termed crminals insane. they chop and change who they apply labels too. not so long ago, they classed homosexuality as a mental illness. then they changed their minds.......

Diet and exersize are the only two which can largely be altered on a whim. Childhood and genetics have not yet been wiped off the board; at least not in this thread.

me:::well of course childhood has an effect on us. school, parenting, influence, bullying etc. yes of course. but to thengo on and call any behaviour deemed not accpetable DUE to past trauma a biological disease in need of drugs is total fraud. it is rather natrual behaviour deemed not acceptable by social controlling forces. they are running an oppressive system. dot forget the water yer swimming in

Can you be sure that genetics are not a factor? Can you be sure that MetaKron's hypothesis of chilhood conditioning is not a factor?

me:::again te above answers this.....dont you think?


I agree. Proper education seems to be the most effective tool in battling violence.


You are right. Learning to walk through yourself is the most difficult thing in life, IME.

things ar VERY VERYtough for many many people!

wesmorris
10-06-05, 11:25 AM
Wes, I agree that anger is natural, but that does not necessarily mean it is always good. I certainly don't think anger should be bottled up. What I think is far more effective is not to become angry in the first place.

Hmm.. might I present the possibility that anger is a tool? IMO, it's not necessarily a bad thing. It provides contrast. It's a protective circuit. It can be a very bad thing if it overwhelms you, but so long as it's limited by a moderating behavior circuit (tm).... it has a function. To me, I don't want to "never become angry", basically because of that whole yin-yang thing. I wouldn't however, want to STAY angry, which is why I purge it through its expression. Of course I don't seek anger, but I don't see it necessarily as a choice (personally). I'm just doing what I do. If I AM angry however, I DO take responsibility for it. In terms of being angry, I basically I expect that if you can relate, you'll understand. If you can't, then so be it. I do not apologize for my humanity. I accept it and well, I love it - foibles and all.


I appreciate that may sound as if I am drifitng into jargon, but these are terms I am comfortable with when explaining my views in this area.
When I hear or see something that could make me angry I actually have a choice facing me. I can choose to be angered by it, or I can choose not to be angered by it. In either event I can also choose to try to do something about it, or not. So I have a matrix of four possibilities.

1. Angry and do nothing (bottling up)
2. Angry and do something (negative reaction)
3. Not angry and do nothing (acceptance)
4. Not angry and do something (positive reaction)

I favour 3 or 4 depending upon the character of the event.

Nah, not too jargonish. I like what you're shooting for there.

2 doesn't bother me - as I view it as part of being. I don't really go far out of my way to avoid it unless the circumstances seem to mandate it. I just think that some things in life are appropriately responded to with anger.

It'd be interesting to have a thread regarding the function, utility and pitfalls of anger. I'll try to remember to start one. Feel free to start one if you'd like (if I forget) and link me please.

EDIT: Nevermind just did it http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=882114#post882114.

river-wind
10-06-05, 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by river-wind
We do? I don't see that we have reached a logical basis for that claim yet. We have in front of us a number of possible factors which could be effecting the symptoms involved - diet, exersize, childhood, genetics.


me::which is why i recommend you chackout Fred Baughmann who will i am sure convince you. He also has a personal experience with the whole ADHD scam in hat his child hd been diagnosed with it
ok, I will visit the library tonight and see if I can find something of his. I have myself been diagnosed w/ ADD, LD and chronic depression, and no longer take any medication.
I can tell you that my conditions are very real; only through hard work was I able to break free of the medications and still function in this society (my choice to do so). However you might feel about the medications socially, when dealing with the biochemistry, they did make a difference, even when I tried hard to make sure they didn't (who wants to admit their own need for medication, their own weaknesses and abnormailties?). I hope that my appeal to authority (my own expirience) can be of use to you.
edit:
http://www.adhdfraud.com/
http://www.adhdfraud.com/emails/051003-1.htm
for anyone interested in reading. He does have some good points, though I already see a few things that I disagree with.


Also, 'genetic'? tis is always resoryed to by groups who seek to demonize another group, or individual. s say a child might be 'highly strung' cause his mum, dad was. so. it that a disease?......what about the mood of apathy? is that genetic. you hear of people who just want to shop shop shop. isthat? do you get me? who are the officals to tell us what is normal. those who apathetically provide the military industrial complex and all that evil. who BELIEVE the slimy politicans. are they genetically wrong. do you see? of course someone who is a killer, and/or does harm needs locking up. but is it a DISEASE as the pharma led shrinks tell us other forms of behaviour not acceptable is a disease. theyactually have done in the past. ie., termed crminals insane. they chop and change who they apply labels too. not so long ago, they classed homosexuality as a mental illness. then they changed their minds.......

I agree that the definition of normal is more variable than people would like to admit, and that variety in the human race is not an "illness" but it's strength. ADD is not a desease, but a label applied to those different from the norm. This, by itself, has no inherent good or bad nature to it; it simply is (and has been supported by physical studies of the subject). The good or the bad of ADD comes from how people handle it, and how society chooses to value it.
However, if one's goal in life is to function within society, then certain freedoms must be limited for the sake of interplay between individuals (ADD or not). Those exibiting behaviors suggestive of ADD who are non-functional in society due to those behaviors, and who show remarkable improvement in functionality when taking medication, suggest a value in that medication.
Well, who gets to decide what is acceptable individual variation between people, and what is not? For one of the first times in the history of the world, *we do*. We have a democracy that was designed to allow for the expression and representation of all of our ideas. It may not be perfect, it may be heavily influenced by power and money, it may need a shake up from time to time. But it's better to have the chance of good then to give up and allow a dictator to gain control.
So let's decide. Killers should be seperated from society (you suggest jail). I agree with this. What about other violent criminals? What qualifies as a violent crime? what about people prone to violent criminality, who havce not yet commited a crime? What about people who are violent to animals, but not people? What about people who are verbally and emotionally abusive, but never hit?
What about people who do no work to feed and clothe themselves? To help others?
What about those who harm other's ability to function? And those who do it unintentionally?

As to your comments of genetics as a part of the blame game, - do you not believe that behavior is at all beholdent to genes? Is human behavior, in your view, only a matter of nurture, with nature playing no part?



Diet and exersize are the only two which can largely be altered on a whim. Childhood and genetics have not yet been wiped off the board; at least not in this thread.


me:::well of course childhood has an effect on us. school, parenting, influence, bullying etc. yes of course. but to thengo on and call any behaviour deemed not accpetable DUE to past trauma a biological disease in need of drugs is total fraud. it is rather natrual behaviour deemed not acceptable by social controlling forces. they are running an oppressive system. dot forget the water yer swimming in

It's not that the behavior is deemed not acceptable "due to past trauma". It is deemed not acceptable because it infringes on the freedoms of the other children in the class (or the other adults on the worksite). As you yourself say; "they are running an oppressive system". This is very true.
For the good of the rest of the class, the small percentage which exhibits an *extraordinary* amount of the symptoms of ADD/ADHD, too the point of being non-functional and endlessly disruptive in a class environment, are given medication (in theory. Over-diagnosis and misdiagnosis results in too many kids being force-fed drugs, and many kids not getting the medication that they need to function in society). This is, however, a different discussion - this is politics, not medicine.

The trauma which created the behavior that has been deemed unacceptable did not just generate a habit; in those who show post-traumatic stress disorder, the physical structure and function of the brain is different from common (instead of using the word normal - just biologically common for the human species).
Be it genetics or truamatic conditioning, if the biochemical nature of a person's brain is different from normal, and the presence of medication can alter the function of the brain closer to that common level, then is the medication bad?
Even if the individual wants to be "normal"? even if they have a choice, and choose to take the medication?

Secondarily - if a person is being non-functional and disruptive in a class or work environment, and medication helps, should it be used? When you are dealing with the infringment of freedoms of the others in that environment, something needs to be done. If non-chemical solutions are available, I think they should be used first.
Meditation, focused effort to teach self-control. However, ADD is a variance. If there is a person who is *so* effected by these problems that meditation and training are not effective, then medication is a viable option which should be considered.
If the medication has any kind of effect on the behavior/attention/depression of one person who strongly resited admiting that those effects existed(as in me), then it is almost certianly doing something chemically in the brain, no? If the chemical can effect my brain in a calming way, and the same chemical can effect most of my friends and family in the completely opposite way, then there must be some kind of physical/chemical difference in the brain which is receiving the chemical, no?



Can you be sure that genetics are not a factor? Can you be sure that MetaKron's hypothesis of chilhood conditioning is not a factor?


me:::again te above answers this.....dont you think?

you seem to suggest that genetics leads to differences in people, but that people's actions and behaviors should not be attributed to those differences? (if I misunderstood, please correct me. this was my interpretation of your reply.).



things ar VERY VERYtough for many many people!
yes, they are. I wish every day that I could solve this as a simple math equation, and hand out the solution to the world.

MetaKron
10-06-05, 01:38 PM
Hmm.. Ophiolite, I think there's a flip side to the coin you're putting on table. I don't know how serious you are about being a "victim of your own anger", but IMO, there's no such thing. Anger is a very natural, human thing. The trick is releasing it constructively. If you end up bottling up all your anger in an attempt to compensate for your previous reactions to being bullied, you've been manipulated into another form of dehumanization.

You know, there is that, but there is also abuse that can cause a lot of damage even when you don't feel anger about it, just frustration at what is going on at the time. How can they get at someone who isn't angry? By doing things that hurt if you are angry or not. No matter how positive my attitude, I will collapse when forced beyond my physical limits, just like anyone else, even were my physical limits greater than anyone else's. Also, you've been calling me a wimp for not being able to take abuse that no one could take.

MetaKron
10-06-05, 01:52 PM
Metakron, you've been sorely infected with a mental virus that has forever altered your perception. The only way I understand that your perception can change is if you begin to question its validity. You're stuck in a catch 22, in which your perception is "the only thing that keeps you alive", which you implicitely trust... but it's infected by the virus that was pounded into you as a child. It lies to you, but you refuse to see it because as far as you see it, it's all you have. It's the only thing that cares about you (your sense of injustice), and constantly fortifies your ego by vindicating you of responsibility for anything. What a self-destructive cycle. That sucks.

There is a lot of truth in that, and as I said to Ophiolite "that's better." That means that you are talking to me the way a human talks.

You can call my perceptions "filtered" but this is the filter of experience. I have to be able to place a certain amount of trust in my perceptions, or I am truly crazy even if the distrust is what people force me to practice so that I can become "fit" for "society." Which perceptions are the truth and which are the lie? My experience and other people's experiences that I have read about tell me that there is a lot of truth to the theory that there is a lot of bullying. A lot of the bullying is invisible even to the perpetrators. You have to see it from the outsider's point of view. It's exactly as if there are still "primitive" societies where it is considered normal for adults to have sex with 11 year old boys and girls. To them the abuse is invisible. No one in their society considers it to be abuse. Our society sees abuse and will go in there with guns to try to correct that, and impose our own mores on them, but definitely, we see abuse. Americans and Brits definitely look like abusers from the outside. I've been an outsider for quite some time. I see the abuse. I see what looks like spirit possession. Anger becomes the possessor and the victims of this possession base all of their judgements on that anger, fine tuning their destructive urges according to what makes them angry or fearful. I am a much more rational person than you might think. It is very difficult for me to deal with this kind of irrationality. I am almost entirely unable to see someone as rational who uses the words of anger to push a point. I have encountered very few such people who are, and a lot more who are into insane violence.

MetaKron
10-06-05, 01:55 PM
No... it's in your leg.

Left leg, right leg, or middle leg? :m:

river-wind
10-06-05, 02:12 PM
lol.
When it comes to us guys, I vote for the last option. Nothing else in the world can cause distraction like that middle leg.

wesmorris
10-06-05, 02:42 PM
You know, there is that, but there is also abuse that can cause a lot of damage even when you don't feel anger about it, just frustration at what is going on at the time. How can they get at someone who isn't angry? By doing things that hurt if you are angry or not. No matter how positive my attitude, I will collapse when forced beyond my physical limits, just like anyone else, even were my physical limits greater than anyone else's.

Yup, that's just humanity. The question is, do you get back up after your collapse? You must, regardless of whether you THINK you can or not. I want to congratulate you on surviving, but I don't know if I can do so when you espouse what you do. I want to say "good job because you're really trying." but I don't know that you are, in fact it seems the opposite, that you're still just obsessed with blaming people for the stuff that only YOU can deal with. I know that sounds harsh to you, and I want to see it some other way really cuz I don't like thinking poorly of people who've been through the shit you have. I simply can't though, as it seems to me you haven't taken your life back and continue to play your role as a victim, finding abuse and horror at every turn. Again, as I've said a few times... I hope I'm wrong.


Also, you've been calling me a wimp for not being able to take abuse that no one could take.

I've called you a wimp because you seem to refuse to get back up. You've allowed them to damage you NOW, when the abuse is long past.... you blame the world for your problems instead of accepting that regardless of who imparted them upon you, you're the one stuck to deal with them. IMO, that's wimpy. It's nothing personal, but said somewhat more vindictively than I might have otherwise since you stated straight up I'm sub-human and directly insulted my beautiful, wonderful children and wife by saying I shouldn't breed, which just annoys the piss out of me in what it represents of an attitude.

I heard something earlier today that I'm trying to remember but can't help but slaughter. I wish I remembered the exact phrasing. It was so pertinent.

Something like "as long as you see monsters instead of people, you'll never understand blah blah". Damnit. It was said so perfectly. I can't remember it. Grr. Basically it's what I said before, as long as you continue to marginalize people by thinking of them as sub-human, you continue to damage your own humanity. Something like that. Bah. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it if I couldn't get it right.

MetaKron
10-06-05, 03:17 PM
Did I or did I not tell you, Wes, that they did the last bit of abuse this August?

I see them as sub-human because their deeds make them that way. It is not biology or appearance, but deeds that make people monsters. I have known giant predator cats who were more human than a lot of humans I know. And when I don't like what comes out of your keyboard, Wes, and you've called me a wimp and whiney, live with the response you get. All I saw for the first few pages was verbal abuse. You REALLY need to work on your people skills. I don't take verbal abuse well. So sue me.

Numerous studies have shown that abuse sticks with people and causes continuing problems. I don't know if you are unaware of this or just don't care. Can you address that with the mouth that you want to eat with? My subconscious was programmed hundreds of times by simple torture, much of it aimed at freezing thought so that I could not even think until someone ordered me to. Are you aware of the concept of subconscious programming? Are you capable of understanding that this isn't something that you can just wave away? Are you capable of understanding that it can take as long to reverse the programming as it did for it to get that way, and that the use of drugs distorts the functioning of the brain and actually makes this more difficult?

I'm not sure that you can understand this because you seem to have jumped on the "he wont' do anything about it" bandwagon solely because of the fact that I have talked about it at all. If you were advanced enough to have a real contribution there are a lot of things that you would know that you don't seem to know and don't seem to think that you need to know. This is a lot like thinking that you can deal with electronics by understanding the functions of resistors and capacitors but not transistors. It's also a lot like thinking that you can get your computer to work better by hitting it with a hammer.

Maybe right now the best thing to do is nothing. If a man is battering his head against a brick wall he feels better when he stops and he stops further damaging himself. There is also the fact that one definition of insanity is to continue to try to do a thing that doesn't work. You have to try a few times but I've tried many times. Beating my head against a wall isn't going to fix the problem I have now. It won't work better if you order me too, either.

duendy
10-06-05, 03:58 PM
Riverwind.........you are still seeming to call people those labels ADHD etc, when they are just empty label.....you suggest that in a 'democracy' that te other kids in a class--as you use as example--should be considered, more so tat theindividual being FALSEly lablled by a bogus science. well that idea is the politics of te whole oncept of 'mental hygene' that is whats going on aleady the word 'hygene' implies tat 'mental illness' is 'catching' so it must be drugged away. this is what social control means. and it serves..SERVES the existing oppressive State, asthe social controlling strategies of the Church did.....in yourlibrary see if you've got Thomas Szasz's The Manufacture of Madness:
A Comparative Study of the Inquisition and the Mental Health Movement

a MUST read

when the indivudal HAS to conform to the State we are talking fascism, and communism. Both do that. In Soviet Russia, dissenters were classed menally ill!

regarding genetics, read The Gene Illusion

tis idea that genes cause 'un-normal' and sub-human behaviour is also fascist ideology. what i meant is that sy a woman is 'highly strung' 'nervy' etc...and child learns the behaviur via whatever means, ten WHO is calling that behaviour mentally ill?....who is claiming what accepted 'normality' is, ANDin what context? the middle class comfortable woman who can afford her drug free therapies which cost abomb, or the poor woman living in a run down council estate? etc...who? the middle --cum upper middle class shrink making a whack from pushin big pharma drugs...?

i understand your problems. and you seem to feel the meds worked for you. i have no problem with adults who can CHOOSEto do so IF they choose to. what i am totally against is adults who aare misinformed--about whats being revealed here etc--and coerced, and cxhildren who have no rights whatsoever.....if having to looked into all tis thoroughly you still deie to take th pills,etc., that is your freedom to do so

you speak of the correct 'chemcial balance' well what ISthat? THEY cannot tell us what A correct chemical balance is

it alo has t be known tat the drugs they give claiming tey are not addictive isa lie, and that they are potentially toxic. Baughman has shown how kids can be harmed by that medication. it is really really wrong
they stigmatize them, making them feel they have a bviological disease, they potentially poison their systems, and give the message that in order to be 'normal' they need drugs, whilst contradicting tis message wit teir war on drugs....!...also it has been shown that meds can make people more violent and suicidal. no wonder, it is disrupting natrual feelings, however deemed unacceptab;le by a mechanical oppressive system that attempts tp force all children etc into an accepted 'norm' thus keeping the very oppression going that greatly contributes to various forms and degrees of distress

wesmorris
10-06-05, 05:22 PM
Did I or did I not tell you, Wes, that they did the last bit of abuse this August?

You mentioned "recently" is all I remember. I question your judgement there, again nothing personal... but you're an adult now. Maybe the idea of being abused in the manner you state, as an adult, is so foreign to me that I simply discredit the notion from the get-go. Yeah pretty much. I don't get it, and have a hard time taking your word for it. As a kid, yeah I'll buy it. As an adult, I just don't know how to.


I see them as sub-human because their deeds make them that way. It is not biology or appearance, but deeds that make people monsters.

I still think that you seeing them as monsters takes part of your humanity from you. They are people. People who probably suck. I don't get it. It doesn't sound like you're dealing with adults.


I have known giant predator cats who were more human than a lot of humans I know.

That's simply not true, or your idea of what comprises a human is distorted. It's the classification for a species. "being human" says little of "decency" as you might conceive of it. I understand that from a perspective of for instance, having been tortured forever and conditioned to accept this or that, you might see people as "not people", or maybe it's just some metaphor for you, but one shouldn't exclude the "bad people" in society as other than human (IMO), as this is false and misrepresentative of what some people are obviously capable of. I'm making too much of semantics maybe.


And when I don't like what comes out of your keyboard, Wes, and you've called me a wimp and whiney, live with the response you get.

LOL. I'm still here talking to you aren't I? Could that in any way indicate that I can't live with it? It's a two way street man. I didn't come into the thread to attack you, you came in to attack me and anyone that agreed with me, espousing consipiracies to hide bullying, as if it's all a bloodbath, all of humanity killing each other - which is a distorted view of things from my perspective, which I explained earlier.


All I saw for the first few pages was verbal abuse.

Abuse? I simply can't relate to that term. You cannot verbally abuse me, even screaming in my face. That's just not the way I see it. You may ATTACK me, but that's not abuse, that's combat, and mental combat is bound to happen as values and experiences clash. It would be abuse if I wished to take advantage of you, a condition I would say is completely impossible in this medium. I don't know you, can't touch you, etc. Actually, except in children and captured audiences, I think the application of the notion of verbal abuse is simply innapplicable. Perhaps there are conditions I have considered, but certainly this, in this place... there's no means to abuse someone unless perhaps you stalk them or something and berate them constantly. In this case, I was here first... so you stalked ME and "verbally abused me". LOL. We're adults man, we have to be able to handle a little verbal hot sauce without trying to characterize it as something that it clearly isn't. As if you can be victimized by a conversation. You're free to leave? Did I try to stop you or ask you to? No, you're simply hypersensitive to the notion and find it wherever it suits you.


You REALLY need to work on your people skills.

My people skills are actually quite refined in general. This format is sometimes challenging in that regard, because the typical social cues etc. are lacking. I'm not particularly versed with dealing with the helpless though. I'm a part time cheap motivational speaker, living in a van... down by the river.


I don't take verbal abuse well. So sue me.

You need to learn to identify the difference between abuse and annoyance/heated argument. In my mind, it's simply impossible for me to abuse you here, thus you come across and a whiner for calling what's going on here "abuse". You are not a victim here. You have the same chance to make a point that anyone else has.


Numerous studies have shown that abuse sticks with people and causes continuing problems. I don't know if you are unaware of this or just don't care.

Meh. I'm aware of that, but I don't think it makes it better to let those people make excuses for a shit attitude. I understand to some extent that one's attitude must be shit for a while as they recover from their experience, but after 40 freakin years, I have a hard time seeing how any excuse can be valid.


Can you address that with the mouth that you want to eat with?

That you are uncomfortable with harsh language is your problem. I'm not here to accomodate you. I'm here seeking to further my understanding of lots of stuff. It's quite possible that something will be said to which I react with venom. If it's venom (regardless of the harshness of the language), I think venom is a fair exchange.


My subconscious was programmed hundreds of times by simple torture, much of it aimed at freezing thought so that I could not even think until someone ordered me to.

Then reprogram yourself.


Are you aware of the concept of subconscious programming?

Sure.


Are you capable of understanding that this isn't something that you can just wave away?

Of course.


Are you capable of understanding that it can take as long to reverse the programming as it did for it to get that way, and that the use of drugs distorts the functioning of the brain and actually makes this more difficult?

First, how long it takes to reprogram is entirely dependent on factors regarding the individual. Secondly, yes I'd think drugs may indeed do as you say, but dependent upon the person, might be helpful.


I'm not sure that you can understand this because you seem to have jumped on the "he wont' do anything about it" bandwagon solely because of the fact that I have talked about it at all.

Which is really silly. That you mention it isn't a big deal. That you obsess over it and use it as leverage for sympathy, and then marginalize someone who doesn't buy into all that... and that you say "I'm not responsible for anything" and such, that stuff... that's why I think "you won't do anything about it at all"... oh, and that you blame others for losing your job, and that you basically blame everyone else for any problem you seem to have. That. All that. That's the reason.


If you were advanced enough to have a real contribution there are a lot of things that you would know that you don't seem to know and don't seem to think that you need to know.

Advanced in what? Honestly man, given that you know how damaged you are, how can you presume to assess my "advancement" of anything? Really? Are you sure? You don't think my contribution is real? So you pretend I've said nothing? You frame it all as abuse so you can feel justified in ignoring it? How very, very convenient to the perpetuation of your inablity to deal with it. Are you getting this?

Quantum Quack
10-06-05, 06:29 PM
Riverwind.........you are still seeming to call people those labels ADHD etc, when they are just empty label.....you suggest that in a 'democracy' that te other kids in a class--as you use as example--should be considered, more so tat theindividual being FALSEly lablled by a bogus science. well that idea is the politics of te whole oncept of 'mental hygene' that is whats going on aleady the word 'hygene' implies tat 'mental illness' is 'catching' so it must be drugged away. this is what social control means. and it serves..SERVES the existing oppressive State, asthe social controlling strategies of the Church did.....in yourlibrary see if you've got Thomas Szasz's The Manufacture of Madness:
A Comparative Study of the Inquisition and the Mental Health Movement

a MUST read

when the indivudal HAS to conform to the State we are talking fascism, and communism. Both do that. In Soviet Russia, dissenters were classed menally ill!

regarding genetics, read The Gene Illusion

tis idea that genes cause 'un-normal' and sub-human behaviour is also fascist ideology. what i meant is that sy a woman is 'highly strung' 'nervy' etc...and child learns the behaviur via whatever means, ten WHO is calling that behaviour mentally ill?....who is claiming what accepted 'normality' is, ANDin what context? the middle class comfortable woman who can afford her drug free therapies which cost abomb, or the poor woman living in a run down council estate? etc...who? the middle --cum upper middle class shrink making a whack from pushin big pharma drugs...?

i understand your problems. and you seem to feel the meds worked for you. i have no problem with adults who can CHOOSEto do so IF they choose to. what i am totally against is adults who aare misinformed--about whats being revealed here etc--and coerced, and cxhildren who have no rights whatsoever.....if having to looked into all tis thoroughly you still deie to take th pills,etc., that is your freedom to do so

you speak of the correct 'chemcial balance' well what ISthat? THEY cannot tell us what A correct chemical balance is

it alo has t be known tat the drugs they give claiming tey are not addictive isa lie, and that they are potentially toxic. Baughman has shown how kids can be harmed by that medication. it is really really wrong
they stigmatize them, making them feel they have a bviological disease, they potentially poison their systems, and give the message that in order to be 'normal' they need drugs, whilst contradicting tis message wit teir war on drugs....!...also it has been shown that meds can make people more violent and suicidal. no wonder, it is disrupting natrual feelings, however deemed unacceptab;le by a mechanical oppressive system that attempts tp force all children etc into an accepted 'norm' thus keeping the very oppression going that greatly contributes to various forms and degrees of distress
I understand where you are commming from but let me propose an all to frequent dilemma.

A father and a mother heve been watching their 14 year old son beat his head against the wall repeatedly every waken hour for 6 months. The child gets up out of bed and proceeds to beat his head against the wall, every day leaving a bloody mess on the wall and on his head.
The doctors have recomended intitutionalisation for the child but the parents have refused on the grounds of "injustice", the doctors have given the parents a bottle of pills suggesting that they try them as they may improve the childs condition, but alas they decline to use them on the grounds of "injustice."

The child keeps beating his head against the wall and every one knows his life is not going to last.

Then one day the parents decide to try the medication and with in two days the child is quiet and smiling for the first time, and even asking questions.

The first question is: "Why did you take 14 years to find a way to help me?"
The parents say, "we respected your right to suffer and considered it an injustice to force you to take medication with out your consent."
"So what changed your mind?" the child asked.
"We gave you the medication because with out it you would have died and we gave it to you hopefully to stop OUR suffering.[ the childs and the parents suffering]"

Do you think the parents have a right to reduce their suffering by giving a desparate child medication with out the childs consent?

If you had a child that was banging his head against the wall repeatedly would you not try to help that child in any way you could?
Would euthanasia cross your mind as an option to think about?

If the childs death is going to be the outcome would you not try a medication even if in vain?
Is it justice to allow your child to bang his head on the wall if you hold the potential answer in your hand inside a little jar?

Duendy, What would you do?

duendy
10-07-05, 04:12 AM
what would i do?

If the child has no biological disease, then i would not want her on medication.

I would want to UNDERSTAND then the behaviour. cause remember, it is not a biological disease.
Ihave known of ypuths and adults doing such as you describe in prisons, as well as covering temselves and cell in shit

we also know about how more and more childrewn are harmingthemselves through self-cutting........and drinking, taking hard drugs, etc etc

all this is BEHAVIOUR. an expression of distress. so we need to learn WHY thisis so. tis may take US into areas we would usually want to deny, hide from...whatever, for a peaceful life. but if we love he child w will

take bullying. a child is being bullied in school. what do we do. keep him in there? or see that it is the very institution that is rotten?..to DO tat manswe move out of the comfort zone of conformity. cause we propbably will face many obstacles, hassles from taking our child out of school

so it is not easy, but we cannot allow tis mass druggingof our children under the pretence it is an established science when it is not. again. INFORM parents, the people about this. change tis fukin system. it is the system which greatly contributes to all forms of distress. and some 'loving'parents are unknowingly like JAILERS. having no insight into where their child is at

river-wind
10-07-05, 11:05 AM
I would want to UNDERSTAND then the behaviour. cause remember, it is not a biological disease.
and I again I reply - "How do you know for sure"? If the addition of a *chemical agent* fixes the self-destructive behavior, then how is the behavior not a biological condition? If the behavior is leading towards death (in this example), then how is it not a disease?

In the links I posted on page 10, your Dr. Fred Baughmann states that a condition must have a physical aspect to it for it to be called disease. If a the addition of a chemical to the system fixes the symptoms, then logically, there *must* be a biological component to the behavior, no?

There are certainly better ways than drugs to deal with 90% of the ADD/ADHD diagnosed patients out there. Many of them have been given that label incorrectly, and many more can control the symptoms through non-chemical means (as I do now). However, that does not remove the possibility that there is a percentage of the diagnosed *who actually have a biological condition* which causes their behavior to be different from the common (and I submit that my self-study over 20 years suggests that I am in this group).
Your arguments, and the arguments of Dr. Baughmann appear to be "some of the tests and test cases for ADD/ADHD may be faulty, therefore all of ADHD medicine is a sham". There is a major logical flaw here that we need to fix before I can be comfortable in saying that ADD is a fraud, and medication is merely poison.


so it is not easy, but we cannot allow tis mass druggingof our children under the pretence it is an established science when it is not.
This I completely agree with. If we were to focus on the over-drugging, I would be completely on your side. Without a more formal biological diagnosis, medication is way too often prescribed by doctors these days.1
So many people are being given these drugs that consistent studies are nearly impossible - if we define ADHD patients as "those who are diagnosed and given medication", and then turn around and do studies on the effectiveness of ADHD drugs, we have a circular definition which ruins the accuracy and reliability of the studies. Who in the study really has ADHD? Who in the study does not, and is simply throwing off the results by being included?


edit:
1for ADD/ADHD, and everything else. My favorite example of this is Brown Recluse spider bites. The spider's venom is a poison which causes the necrosis of the flesh around the bite.
But the standard practice of most hospitals is to give antibiotics. It's not a bacterial infection, it's the injection of a protein; antibiotics do nothing but cost the bite victim time and money.

MetaKron
10-07-05, 02:04 PM
The trouble is, QQ, that head-banging is fairly rare, and acting out in class is fairly common. If you have kids who keep poking at a kid until the kid screams, they too are acting out. These latter actors are quieter, harder to catch, and the teacher is often indifferent or actively collaborating. I have been victim to attempts to correct my behavior by drugging when that behavior came about as a result of extreme stress.

It doesn't take a lot of brains to know that the first thing to do is to remove the source of stress.

With ADD and ADHD we have yet another "disease by definition." First we define a population then we settle on the characteristics of the disease later. With the "juvenile forms" we include anyone caught acting out in class and automatically exclude those actors who aren't caught or are sanctioned. We wind up diagnosing and treating people who are acting out because of things that other people did to them. The ones we diagnose and treat don't have the disease/disorder that we are treating.

They used to punish me severely, with increasing severity, because my behavior was "intractable." As a child who was smaller than the others in my class, I had absolutely no hope of changing my behavior unless they drugged me insensible or removed me from their presence. This hurt me. It ruined my education. It disabled me mentally. They damaged my reputation and my relationship with my mother, making her a much more bitter and vicious person than she had been before. And in spite of the expert opinions that were rendered here, there is only so much that a person can heal at a time. I don't expect to heal in time.

One thing that we have to watch for is that the teachers will treat the treated child differently, which will actually help sometimes. They get what they expect. The treated child may be seen to "fit in" better when his behavior hasn't changed at all, or the teacher may sometimes be able to stop others from picking on him so much. People will do a lot to get the results that they expect, so if you change the teacher's expectations, you change the results. This has been tested exhaustively and it should be up front in people's minds, not some dusty historical text.

MetaKron
10-07-05, 02:07 PM
And no, Wes, dealing with harsh language like yours is not my problem, it's your problem. You may want to eat with that mouth, or kiss your wife.

I am getting back up again, but why in hell should that mean that I must also be forced to re-enter a workforce that keeps trying to kill me? I have done far more "trying" than should be required of anyone just to perform some simple tasks for an even simpler paycheck.

wesmorris
10-07-05, 04:21 PM
And no, Wes, dealing with harsh language like yours is not my problem, it's your problem.

Uhm, I don't have a problem with it. You've been complaining about it. You said you had a problem with it, now you change your story.


You may want to eat with that mouth, or kiss your wife.

And you know that words have no effect on the capacity for either of the above.


I am getting back up again, but why in hell should that mean that I must also be forced to re-enter a workforce that keeps trying to kill me?

The "work force" has no intentions. It just is. Your lacking ability to see people as they are, and instead forcing them into the plot against you almost surely personally alienates you from most people you encounter in the work force. Thus, your percieved plot re-enforces itself automatically - because your perception makes it such that people react badly to you. That you react badly to their bad reaction (fueling even more paranoia on your part)simply escalates the cycle of badness. Pretty soon you find yourself basically ostracized.


I have done far more "trying" than should be required of anyone just to perform some simple tasks for an even simpler paycheck.

There is no such thing as a limit to trying. You may struggle your whole life simply to fail miserably. The trick is to make your struggling get you somewhere, which as long as you percieve the world as "trying to kill you", you cannot... because you're setting yourself up for failure.

Thus I would recommend that the next time the thought occurs to you "that guy is out to get me" in any of its forms, you think "nah man, he's just trying to get along as he thinks getting along must be", even if it seems like what he's doing is at your expense. Oh, and you might ask yourself "what am I doing that he might percieve to be at his expense", like for instance, framing him into a plot he doesn't know he's in on.

duendy
10-07-05, 04:31 PM
and I again I reply - "How do you know for sure"? If the addition of a *chemical agent* fixes the self-destructive behavior, then how is the behavior not a biological condition? If the behavior is leading towards death (in this example), then how is it not a disease?

me:::which is WHY i am recommending you listen to Baughmann who knows his business!....summarizing prognosis as dictated by medical science should jean an organic lesion etc which mans that a isease can be indentified medically like cancer. you dont ooo and ahhh about cancer. all results show it is an organic condition, wit 'cehmical imbalance' it is the subjective decision by a bunch of men sat round a table deciding who has chemical imabalance and tat it is a 'disease'...te fact thy create the drugs to 'cure' the'symptoms' i the scam. what te drugs actually do is alter natrual chemicals....like would hapen if you tookm'illegal' speed. takin it makes you maybe more soiable but it hasn't cured anything it has merely affected your physiological chemistry

In the links I posted on page 10, your Dr. Fred Baughmann states that a condition must have a physical aspect to it for it to be called disease. If a the addition of a chemical to the system fixes the symptoms, then logically, there *must* be a biological component to the behavior,




no?

me:::no. because the so-called sympttoms are not a disease. a disease is an organic lesion of rhe organism. they are rather subjectively 'diagnosing behaviour they do not acept nor understand so choose through bogus science to change it
if you say a joke i 'sick' it isn't really sick. it is a metaphor. if yu are unhappy it isn't a disease . it is you being unhappy. if you are inattentive you are not interestd. who is to say it is a disease. social controllers is who, try and understand. look at the institution that is claiming this. why isn't that sick?

There are certainly better ways than drugs to deal with 90% of the ADD/ADHD diagnosed patients out there. Many of them have been given that label incorrectly, and many more can control the symptoms through non-chemical means (as I do now).

me:::you are still believing it is 'ADHD'
that is just some letters created by immoral people round a table.
look. can i suggest something? Fred Baughmann is very apporachable and provides an emial. email him with your worries, and transfer his replies to here. if you believe you can expose him, rthen try it.

However, that does not remove the possibility that there is a percentage of the diagnosed *who actually have a biological condition* which causes their behavior to be different from the common (and I submit that my self-study over 20 years suggests that I am in this group).


me:::from te 'commo'...the norm? what you ean lots of people buzzin aoutin jobs they hate, paying taxes to a military industrial coporate corrupt regime which lies and stares evil illegal wars that useweapons of mass destruction on them whilst accusing the other of it. that is the norm? wake up kiddo!

Your arguments, and the arguments of Dr. Baughmann appear to be "some of the tests and test cases for ADD/ADHD may be faulty,
therefore all of ADHD medicine is a sham".

me:::out position is this. up to this date there is no true science that says mental illness including so-called ADHD exists. UNTI there is, which is doubtful for many variiant and scientific reason, then we cannot call it disease. period. to do so undermines an individual's rights.

There is a major logical flaw here that we need to fix before I can be comfortable in saying that ADD is a fraud, and medication is merely poison.

me:::what?

This I completely agree with. If we were to focus on the over-drugging, I would be completely on your side. Without a more formal biological diagnosis, medication is way too often prescribed by doctors these days.1

me:::therer shouldn't be ANY forced druggin, and no misinformation. Baufhmann has tried to get a rely from the head of the APA to prve that thir diagnoses are scientifically sound. from last i heard he has been ignored

So many people are being given these drugs that consistent studies are nearly impossible - if we define ADHD patients as "those who are diagnosed and given medication", and then turn around and do studies on the effectiveness of ADHD drugs, we have a circular definition which ruins the accuracy and reliability of the studies. Who in the study really has ADHD? Who in the study does not, and is simply throwing off the results by being included?

me::: the reaaon for this confusion is obvious. it is all a sham. if cancer, or any other real disease there would be/is no problem of authentic diagnosis


edit:
1for ADD/ADHD, and everything else. My favorite example of this is Brown Recluse spider bites. The spider's venom is a poison which causes the necrosis of the flesh around the bite.
But the standard practice of most hospitals is to give antibiotics. It's not a bacterial infection, it's the injection of a protein; antibiotics do nothing but cost the bite victim time and money.

tere is quite a bit wrong wit allopathi medicine and ethics too, but lets tryand keep it not ttoo complex. tis issue is complex enough

MetaKron
10-07-05, 04:37 PM
I seem to be the only one who knows that workable solutions to this problem have been created a long time ago, and they don't involve drugs. They do tend to produce classrooms of what we think of as geniuses, and this disturbs the status quo. The book Superlearning is a good place to start. I think that their methods help all but the most incorrigible.

Had my education simply been geared toward creating competency in any given subject, I would have passed with flying colors. All it accomplished was to create unending battles, both in the classroom and in my head.

Russ723
10-09-05, 12:54 PM
We think that we can increase the pace of life with all our technology and pressures with out experiencing some sort of fall out.

To me ADD could be a product of a form of culture shock, where the human genome is not always able to cope with sudden change. Where our intellectual evolution leaps ahead of our emotional evolution.

It is little wonder that some of us will suffer from these significant changes in livestyle.



I think you may be right.

We didn't evolve in cubicles.

A psychologist can treat any set of behaviors that are unwanted.

MetaKron
10-09-05, 04:56 PM
We also didn't evolve sitting glued to our seats at rapt attention to some psychotic fool prattling on and on at the head of the class.

Satyr
10-09-05, 05:54 PM
I hear that the best way to live with ADHD is to :eek: ÖÖÖ

river-wind
10-11-05, 10:40 AM
In the links I posted on page 10, your Dr. Fred Baughmann states that a condition must have a physical aspect to it for it to be called disease. If a the addition of a chemical to the system fixes the symptoms, then logically, there *must* be a biological component to the behavior,
no?

me:::no. because the so-called sympttoms are not a disease. a disease is an organic lesion of rhe organism. they are rather subjectively 'diagnosing behaviour they do not acept nor understand so choose through bogus science to change it
Note that I did not use the term disease. I specifically avoided it, because we are trying to come to an agreement as to the existence or non-existence of ADHD as a disease/disorder. If the behavior is due to a chemical imbalance (defined as a balance and/or amount of neurotransmitters in the brain that is statistically different than what is found in a majority of human beings tested), then there must be something physical which is causing the non-standard creation/retention rates of those neurotransmitters.
If the addition of a chemical to the system corrects this rate of neurotransmitter creation/retention, then doesn't it suggest that there is a physical difference in the biology of the brain in question; one that allows for a chemical to alter the creation/retention rates such that it brings them in line with the average human of this species?

Edit: diet could also be a reason for this result. So the two options which could be sources for any type of neurotransmitter imbalance are :
1)diet
2)physical difference in the cells responsible for the creation/retention of the neurotransmitters



me:::from te 'commo'...the norm? what you ean lots of people buzzin aoutin jobs they hate, paying taxes to a military industrial coporate corrupt regime which lies and stares evil illegal wars that useweapons of mass destruction on them whilst accusing the other of it. that is the norm? wake up kiddo!
no, I mean the average brain structure/function based on the entire human species. "Norm" = your good Dr.'s baseline for identifying the physical differences which he uses in identifying illness.



There are certainly better ways than drugs to deal with 90% of the ADD/ADHD diagnosed patients out there. Many of them have been given that label incorrectly, and many more can control the symptoms through non-chemical means (as I do now).

me:::you are still believing it is 'ADHD'
what I wrote and what you read appear to be two different things. Please see the bolded section of my text above; I avoided making a claim either way as to the existence of ADHD, and referred to the currently diagnosed population. Certainly you don't disagree that people exist who have been diagnosed w/ADHD, regardless of their actual state of health?



Your arguments, and the arguments of Dr. Baughmann appear to be "some of the tests and test cases for ADD/ADHD may be faulty,
therefore all of ADHD medicine is a sham".

me::ut position is this. up to this date there is no true science that says mental illness including so-called ADHD exists. UNTI there is, which is doubtful for many variiant and scientific reason, then we cannot call it disease. period. to do so undermines an individual's rights.

none? at all? are you sure about that? I believe that the link posted a few pages back + fMRI studies + the cases where stimulants have a reverse effects on people labeled as ADHD than would be expected in the general population, all would disagree with you.
While there are certainly problems in the current state of mental illness study and treatment, and the only recent look into the effects of diet by mainstream medicine is woefully late to the game, to claim that there is "no true science that says mental illness...exists" seems quite insulting to those who suffer through their apparently non-existent disorders.



There is a major logical flaw here that we need to fix before I can be comfortable in saying that ADD is a fraud, and medication is merely poison.

me:::what?
exactly.

Thanks for the discussion, I feel like there is nothing more that I can add. Good luck.

duendy
10-11-05, 11:23 AM
Note that I did not use the term disease. I specifically avoided it, because we are trying to come to an agreement as to the existence or non-existence of ADHD as a disease/disorder. If the behavior is due to a chemical imbalance (defined as a balance and/or amount of neurotransmitters in the brain that is statistically different than what is found in a majority of human beings tested), then there must be something physical which is causing the non-standard creation/retention rates of those neurotransmitters.

me:::ypu just siad it...'BEHAVIOUR'. behaviour is NOT a disease. only to those who want to control it to teir specification is it a disease which they then lie about as if it is organic and this justifies teir use of drugs on it.

If the addition of a chemical to the system corrects this rate of neurotransmitter creation/retention, then doesn't it suggest that there is a physical difference in the biology of the brain in question; one that allows for a chemical to alter the creation/retention rates such that it brings them in line with the average human of this species?

me::what you mean te 'average' person? when someone isdaignosed wi cnacer it is obavious they have an organic disease. one doesn't have to do surveys as to what average behaviour is......dear god. i shudder to think what 'average' behaviour is in ths fukin world....dont you???

Edit: diet could also be a reason for this result. So the two options which could be sources for any type of neurotransmitter imbalance are :
1)diet
2)physical difference in the cells responsible for the creation/retention of the neurotransmitters

me::yes it is important what you eat and drink. but even if someone is stuffin mcdonalds down their throat and dieat cok and is hyper hyper, it still isn't a medical disease as is properly defined as organic disease

no, I mean the average brain structure/function based on the entire human species. "Norm" = your good Dr.'s baseline for identifying the physical differences which he uses in identifying illness.

me::no doc has the right tro dfine 'normal' behaviour and then drug it is it isn't 'normal'. thats as is being said again and again, is a scam!...ios a corrupt syttem up to all srts dictating what is supposed to be 'NORMAL' whilst convenient;y ignoring their shit

what I wrote and what you read appear to be two different things. Please see the bolded section of my text above; I avoided making a claim either way as to the existence of ADHD, and referred to the currently diagnosed population. Certainly you don't disagree that people exist who have been diagnosed w/ADHD, regardless of their actual state of health?

me::i know that people get diagnosed wit ADHD. i don agree wit it.

none? at all? are you sure about that? I believe that the link posted a few pages back + fMRI studies + the cases where stimulants have a reverse effects on people labeled as ADHD than would be expected in the general population, all would disagree with you.
While there are certainly problems in the current state of mental illness study and treatment, and the only recent look into the effects of diet by mainstream medicine is woefully late to the game, to claim that there is "no true science that says mental illness...exists" seems quite insulting to those who suffer through their apparently non-existent disorders.

me:::oh jeeesus. this is what i have been saying from the beginning, and urging you to contact Fred Buaghmann. have you done so yet? you seem very passionate about this. why have you not if you aint?

exactly.

Thanks for the discussion, I feel like there is nothing more that I can add. Good luck.

so why have you asked questions then.....?

MetaKron
10-11-05, 11:55 AM
Duendy, it's the usual. They regrouped and retrenched.

wesmorris
10-11-05, 02:26 PM
Who is "they"?

MetaKron
10-11-05, 09:18 PM
Who is "they"?

Look up from what you are sucking on.

wesmorris
10-11-05, 09:28 PM
Look up from what you are sucking on.

Why don't you tell me what you think that is instead of disgusting, baseless inuendo?

MetaKron
10-11-05, 09:36 PM
Because that was all the information that would make it through to you.

wesmorris
10-11-05, 10:49 PM
Of course it is, if that's all you say. Don't you think?

You mean "because you'll call me on my bullshit and I don't feel like dealing with it".

MetaKron
10-11-05, 11:04 PM
Hey, you were the one talking smack to begin with while I was trying to present some difficult issues, and you were the one who was burning your own rubber to put up some smokescreen, plus you were the one letting the world know that if people talk about their problems, you are going to give them some pain and pretend it's shinola. Get some of it on your own face, don't be whining about your knees hurting.

wesmorris
10-11-05, 11:49 PM
In what way is it possible for me to give YOU pain?

Eh?

Come on, explain it. Exactly how am I responsible for your feelings or inability to comprehend what I've said to you?

Why don't you tell me how you know I intend to hurt you?

It was a simple fucking question. I asked you "who is they", after you'd made some mystical statement as if you'd uncovered some sciforums conspiracy to make you look worse than you make yourself look. I want to know. WHO IS THEY?

Why can't you answer a simple fucking question? Are you more than a drama queen?

MetaKron
10-12-05, 01:15 AM
You can dish it out but you can't take it.

wesmorris
10-12-05, 08:43 AM
Dish WHAT out?

There is nothing to take. All you offer is the spectre of your pain. I can't take it because it's not real to me. It's a ghost that only you can see directly. I can only see it in through your obviously arrested development, fear and incredibly shitty attitude, you know.. the conditions that keep the ghost visible to you. The conditions that you're unwilling to change because you don't think you can. Therefore, you've learned that its the extent of your capacity and are as a resultant, a drama queen. I'd think after 40 years a rational person, or a person who desires to be rational, would run out of excuses like "I can't". You are rightfully shunned and further degraded, because at this point - you are the catylist of your own misery. In order to preserve what you know as you though, you certainly can't accept responsibility for your misery because that would force you to face it, so you just do the easy thing and blame your problems on whatever is convenient at the time... like me for instance at this time... your co-workers before, "big business" when it suits you, and well... anything and everyone so long as it aint you. Almost everything you say must therefore be bullshit designed to fortify your stupidity.

MetaKron
10-12-05, 11:48 AM
How many fingers am I holding up?

wesmorris
10-12-05, 12:22 PM
You sir, are the intellectual bawumba shiznit! Look at you go:

-Duendy, it's the usual. They regrouped and retrenched.
-Look up from what you are sucking on.
-Because that was all the information that would make it through to you.
-Get some of it on your own face, don't be whining about your knees hurting.
-You can dish it out but you can't take it.
-How many fingers am I holding up?

Of course NONE of that is bullshit designed to keep you insulated from realizing you are the source of your own problems! I'm humbled, and rest my rather impotent, mindless, right-wing, sub-human, conspiratorial case.

Oh, I forgot evil.

MetaKron
10-12-05, 02:27 PM
That's how many fingers I'm holding up. And to tell you the truth, I'm deleting the rest of the sentence no matter what that looks like.