As you've probably noticed, Tony and I have been discussing whether Jesus is worthy of being followed, or if he was merely sent as a deceiver and a stumbling stone that others might fall into error. I feel this subject is worthy of its own thread, so here goes:

<font color="red">1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.</font>

Following are a few examples of what the Old Testament has to say about stumblingblocks:

<font color="red">Leviticus 19:14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.


Isaiah 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

Isaiah 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.


Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.


Ezekiel 14:2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 14:3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?

Ezekiel 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

Ezekiel 14:5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

Ezekiel 14:6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

Ezekiel 14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:

Ezekiel 14:8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.</font>

There are quite a few verses I would like to include from Ezekiel, Chapter 7, but in the interest of keeping the opening post a readable length, I'll save it for later.

Okay - so Jesus is the stumblingblock, and we shouldn't put stumblingblocks before the blind. God reserves the right to do this, and damned is he who stumbles - but <i>we</i> shouldn't take it on ourselves to do it, and we should warn others about the stumblingblock lest our brother's blood be on our hands.

Does anyone agree with my interpretation, or am I still merely stumbling blindly as I traverse the scriptures?

Emerald

Originally posted by Emerald
<font color="red">1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.</font>

Following are a few examples of what the Old Testament has to say about stumblingblocks:

<font color="red">Leviticus 19:14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.


Isaiah 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.


Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.


Ezekiel 14:2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.
6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.</font>

There are quite a few verses I would like to include from Ezekiel, Chapter 7, but in the interest of keeping the opening post a readable length, I'll save it for later.

Okay - so Jesus is the stumblingblock, and we shouldn't put stumblingblocks before the blind. God reserves the right to do this, and damned is he who stumbles - but <i>we</i> shouldn't take it on ourselves to do it, and we should warn others about the stumblingblock lest our brother's blood be on our hands.

Does anyone agree with my interpretation, or am I still merely stumbling blindly as I traverse the scriptures?
You're not actually stumbling blindly, and I hope I didn't say it was blindly.

It's pretty close, except for the warning about the stumblingblock.
We're supposed to warn the righteous of committing iniquity and their impending death, not of the stumblingblock.

Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
(Ezekiel 3:20, KJV).

Other than that, so far, so good.
Altho, I am sure you want to take this somewhere.

Originally posted by tony1
It's pretty close, except for the warning about the stumblingblock. We're supposed to warn the righteous of committing iniquity and their impending death, not of the stumblingblock.

Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
(Ezekiel 3:20, KJV).

Other than that, so far, so good.
Altho, I am sure you want to take this somewhere.

Indeed, and I hope you don't get too bored before I'm through exploring this subject. Here's more on the stumblingblock thing:

<font color="red">Isaiah 57:8 Behind the doors also and the posts hast thou set up thy remembrance: for thou hast discovered thyself to another than me, and art gone up; thou hast enlarged thy bed, and made thee a covenant with them; thou lovedst their bed where thou sawest it.

Isaiah 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.

Isaiah 57:10 Thou art wearied in the greatness of thy way; yet saidst thou not, There is no hope: thou hast found the life of thine hand; therefore thou wast not grieved.

Isaiah 57:11 And of whom hast thou been afraid or feared, that thou hast lied, and hast not remembered me, nor laid it to thy heart? have not I held my peace even of old, and thou fearest me not?

Isaiah 57:12 I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee.

Isaiah 57:13 When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;

Isaiah 57:14 And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people.</font>

Also, I find Chapter 7 of Ezekiel particularly fascinating, so I will copy the entire chapter here:

<font color="red">Ezekiel 7:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 7:2 Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land.

Ezekiel 7:3 Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations.

Ezekiel 7:4 And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have pity: but I will recompense thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 7:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD; An evil, an only evil, behold, is come.

Ezekiel 7:6 An end is come, the end is come: it watcheth for thee; behold, it is come.

Ezekiel 7:7 The morning is come unto thee, O thou that dwellest in the land: the time is come, the day of trouble is near, and not the sounding again of the mountains.

Ezekiel 7:8 Now will I shortly pour out my fury upon thee, and accomplish mine anger upon thee: and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense thee for all thine abominations.

Ezekiel 7:9 And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thee according to thy ways and thine abominations that are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am the LORD that smiteth.

Ezekiel 7:10 Behold the day, behold, it is come: the morning is gone forth; the rod hath blossomed, pride hath budded.

Ezekiel 7:11 Violence is risen up into a rod of wickedness: none of them shall remain, nor of their multitude, nor of any of theirs: neither shall there be wailing for them.

Ezekiel 7:12 The time is come, the day draweth near: let not the buyer rejoice, nor the seller mourn: for wrath is upon all the multitude thereof.

Ezekiel 7:13 For the seller shall not return to that which is sold, although they were yet alive: for the vision is touching the whole multitude thereof, which shall not return; neither shall any strengthen himself in the iniquity of his life.

Ezekiel 7:14 They have blown the trumpet, even to make all ready; but none goeth to the battle: for my wrath is upon all the multitude thereof.

Ezekiel 7:15 The sword is without, and the pestilence and the famine within: he that is in the field shall die with the sword; and he that is in the city, famine and pestilence shall devour him.

Ezekiel 7:16 But they that escape of them shall escape, and shall be on the mountains like doves of the valleys, all of them mourning, every one for his iniquity.

Ezekiel 7:17 All hands shall be feeble, and all knees shall be weak as water.

Ezekiel 7:18 They shall also gird themselves with sackcloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads.

Ezekiel 7:19 They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.

Ezekiel 7:20 As for the beauty of his ornament, he set it in majesty: but they made the images of their abominations and of their detestable things therein: therefore have I set it far from them.

Ezekiel 7:21 And I will give it into the hands of the strangers for a prey, and to the wicked of the earth for a spoil; and they shall pollute it.

Ezekiel 7:22 My face will I turn also from them, and they shall pollute my secret place: for the robbers shall enter into it, and defile it.

Ezekiel 7:23 Make a chain: for the land is full of bloody crimes, and the city is full of violence.

Ezekiel 7:24 Wherefore I will bring the worst of the heathen, and they shall possess their houses: I will also make the pomp of the strong to cease; and their holy places shall be defiled.

Ezekiel 7:25 Destruction cometh; and they shall seek peace, and there shall be none.

Ezekiel 7:26 Mischief shall come upon mischief, and rumour shall be upon rumour; then shall they seek a vision of the prophet; but the law shall perish from the priest, and counsel from the ancients.

Ezekiel 7:27 The king shall mourn, and the prince shall be clothed with desolation, and the hands of the people of the land shall be troubled: I will do unto them after their way, and according to their deserts will I judge them; and they shall know that I am the LORD.</font>

And here's a warning against putting a stumblingblock in a brother's way:

<font color="red">Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.</font>

Well, that seems pretty clear to me - proselytizers, beware! Keep your stumblingblock to yourselves!

Emerald

Emerald,

I am not seeing what it is that is causing you to conclude that stumblingblock=Jesus.

Basically, it sounds to me as though the stumbling block that man should not put before another is 'temptation' to turn from righteousness. It also sounds like man is supposed to warn others about the consequence of commiting iniquities - that God will put a stumbling block before those who commit iniquities, causing them to die - and their iniquities will die along with them.

Emerald,

Part of what's been bothering me here is why it should be considered a BAD THING that Jesus is a stumblingblock to the Jews.

It is pretty clear from scripture that Jesus is a stumblingblock.
You've done a great job proving that.
While there may be some Christians who would themselves stumble at that, the concept is pretty clear.

I can't see that you would actually be setting out to preach the gospel, so you must have a different point to this.
What is it?


Originally posted by mirror
I am not seeing what it is that is causing you to conclude that stumblingblock=Jesus.

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
(1 Corinthians 1:23, KJV).

Tony1,

Thanks for the quote. However, I still do not see how that quote or any of the other quotes posted in this thread substantiate Emerald's theory that Jesus was "merely sent as a deceiver and a stumbling stone so that others might fall into error".

Got anything else?

Originally posted by mirror
Thanks for the quote. However, I still do not see how that quote or any of the other quotes posted in this thread substantiate Emerald's theory that Jesus was "merely sent as a deceiver and a stumbling stone so that others might fall into error".

Got anything else?

Of course, he wasn't sent "merely" as anything, for one thing.
He wasn't sent as a deceiver, for another thing.

However, it is important to understand that there is no fence-sitting where Jesus is concerned.

You can't "sort of" choose life, and still "sort of" choose death at the same time.

You can't be right and wrong at the same time.

Thus, if you do not choose righteousness, you do choose error.

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, KJV).

Emerald appears to be suggesting that Jesus came only to be a stumbling stone.
I say that he was here for much more, but the stumbling stone thing is a very significant part of what Jesus came to do.

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
(Matthew 21:42-44, KJV).

Christianity isn't a bunch of warm fuzzies, it is the wielding of a sword.

A sword cuts; and it cuts between truth and error.

Tony1,

I see what you are saying. However, I think it's more a matter that Jesus 'becomes' a stumbling block for those who do not accept Jesus as their savior.

Let's say a police officer's 'role' is to protect and serve. However, when the police officer sees a robbery in progress and thwarts the robbers attempt, the police officer then 'becomes' a stumbling block - to the criminal.

Just as you say that Jesus isn't merely a stumbling block, perhaps Christianity is not merely the weilding of a sword, however divisive it might be. I've seen lots of people get warm and fuzzy over Jesus. Maybe Christianity 'becomes' a bunch of warm fuzzies - to some people.

Originally posted by mirror
Emerald,

I am not seeing what it is that is causing you to conclude that stumblingblock=Jesus.

Basically, it sounds to me as though the stumbling block that man should not put before another is 'temptation' to turn from righteousness. It also sounds like man is supposed to warn others about the consequence of commiting iniquities - that God will put a stumbling block before those who commit iniquities, causing them to die - and their iniquities will die along with them.

Apparently you already understand that Jesus was sent as a stumblingblock. Your primary argument seems to be that he was also much more than that. Here is the meaning of the Hebrew word used for stumblingblock:

<font color="blue">04383 mikshowl {mik-shole'} or mikshol {mik-shole'}

from 03782; TWOT - 1050c; n m

AV - stumblingblock 8, offence 2, ruins 2, offend 1, fall 1; 14

1) a stumbling, means or occasion of stumbling, stumbling block
1a) stumbling, fall
1b) means or occasion of stumbling, stumbling block</font>

And here is the root word:

<font color="blue">03782 kashal {kaw-shal'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 1050; v

AV - fall 27, stumble 19, cast down 4, feeble 4, overthrown 2, ruin 2, bereave + 07921 1, decayed 1, faileth 1, utterly 1, weak 1, variant 2; 65

1) to stumble, stagger, totter
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to stumble
1a2) to totter
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to stumble
1b2) to be tottering, be feeble
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to cause to stumble, bring injury or ruin to, overthrow
1c2) to make feeble, make weak
1d) (Hophal) to be made to stumble
1e) (Piel) bereave</font>

Not a role I'd care for, to say the least - even if it was only <i>one</i> of my roles.

I have previously quoted part of Ezekiel, Chapter 14. I would like to know how Christians interpret this chapter. Let's take a look at one of the available commentaries for Ezekiel, Chapter 14, which I find to be extremely interesting:

<font color="green">Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown
Commentary Critical and Explanatory
on the Whole Bible (1871)
THE BOOK OF THE PROPHET EZEKIEL
Commentary by A. R. FAUSSETT
CHAPTER 14

Eze 14:1-23 . HYPOCRITICAL INQUIRERS ARE ANSWERED ACCORDING TO THEIR HYPOCRISY. THE CALAMITIES COMING ON THE PEOPLE; BUT A REMNANT IS TO ESCAPE.

1. elders--persons holding that dignity among the exiles at the Chebar. GROTIUS refers this to Seraiah and those sent with him from Judea ( Jer 51:59 ). The prophet's reply, first, reflecting on the character of the inquirers, and, secondly, foretelling the calamities coming on Judea, may furnish an idea of the subject of their inquiry.
sat before me--not at once able to find a beginning of their speech; indicative of anxiety and despondency.

3. heart . . . face--The heart is first corrupted, and then the outward manifestation of idol-worship follows; they set their idols before their eyes. With all their pretense of consulting God now, they have not even put away their idols outwardly; implying gross contempt of God. "Set up," literally, "aloft"; implying that their idols had gained the supreme ascendancy over them.
stumbling-block of . . . iniquity--See Pro 3:21, 23 , "Let not them (God's laws) depart from thine eyes, then . . . thy foot shall not stumble." Instead of God's law, which (by being kept before their eyes) would have saved them from stumbling, they set up their idols before their eyes, which proved a stumbling-block, causing them to stumble ( Eze 7:19 ).
inquired of at all--literally, "should I with inquiry be inquired of" by such hypocrites as they are? ( Psa 66:18 Pro 15:29 28:9 ).

4. and cometh--and yet cometh, reigning himself to be a true worshipper of Jehovah.
him that cometh--so the Hebrew Margin reads. But the Hebrew text reading is, "according to it, according to the multitude of his idols"; the anticipative clause with the pronoun not being pleonastic, but increasing the emphasis of the following clause with the noun. "I will answer," literally, reflexively, "I will Myself (or for Myself) answer him."
according to . . . idols--thus, "answering a fool according to his folly"; making the sinner's sin his punishment; retributive justice ( Pro 1:31 26:5 ).

5. That I may take--that is, unveil and overtake with punishment the dissimulation and impiety of Israel hid in their own heart. Or, rather, "That I may punish them by answering them after their own hearts"; corresponding to "according to the multitude of his idols" (see on JF & B for Eze 14:4); an instance is given in Eze 14:9 Rom 1:28 2Th 2:11 , God giving them up in wrath to their own lie.
idols--though pretending to "inquire" of Me, "in their hearts" they are "estranged from Me," and love "idols."

6. Though God so threatened the people for their idolatry ( Eze 14:5 ), yet He would rather they should avert the calamity by "repentance."
turn yourselves--CALVIN translates, "turn others" (namely, the stranger proselytes in the land). As ye have been the advisers of others (see Eze 14:7 , "the stranger that sojourneth in Israel") to idolatry, so bestow at least as much pains in turning them to the truth; the surest proof of repentance. But the parallelism to Eze 14:3, 4 favors English Version. Their sin was twofold: (1) "In their heart" or inner man; (2) "Put before their face," that is, exhibited outwardly. So their repentance is generally expressed by "repent," and is then divided into: (1) "Turn yourselves (inwardly) from your idols"; (2) "Turn away your faces (outwardly) from all your abominations." It is not likely that an exhortation to convert others should come between the two affecting themselves.

7. stranger--the proselyte, tolerated in Israel only on condition of worshipping no God but Jehovah ( Lev 17:8, 9 ).
inquire of him concerning me--that is, concerning My will.
by myself--not by word, but by deed, that is, by judgments, marking My hand and direct agency; instead of answering him through the prophet he consults. FAIRBAIRN translates, as it is the same Hebrew as in the previous clause, "concerning Me," it is natural that God should use the same expression in His reply as was used in the consultation of Him. But the sense, I think, is the same. The hypocrite inquires of the prophet concerning God; and God, instead of replying through the prophet, replies for Himself concerning Himself.

8. And I will set my face against that man--(See on JF & B for Le 17:10).
and will make him a sign--literally, "I will destroy him so as to become a sign"; it will be no ordinary destruction, but such as will make him be an object pointed at with wonder by all, as Korah, &c. ( Num 26:10 Deu 28:37 ).

9. I the Lord have deceived that prophet--not directly, but through Satan and his ministers; not merely permissively, but by overruling their evil to serve the purposes of His righteous judgment, to be a touchstone to separate the precious from the vile, and to "prove" His people ( Deu 13:3 1Ki 22:23 Jer 4:10 2Th 2:11, 12 ). Evil comes not from God, though God overrules it to serve His will ( Job 12:16 Jam 1:3 ). This declaration of God is intended to answer their objection, "Jeremiah and Ezekiel are but two opposed to the many prophets who announce 'peace to us." "Nay, deceive not yourselves, those prophets of yours are deluding you, and I permit them to do so as a righteous judgment on your wilful blindness."

10. As they dealt deceitfully with God by seeking answers of peace without repentance, so God would let them be dealt with deceitfully by the prophets whom they consulted. God would chastise their sin with a corresponding sin; as they rejected the safe directions of the true light, He would send the pernicious delusions of a false one; prophets would be given them who should re-echo the deceitfulness that already wrought in their own bosom, to their ruin [FAIRBAIRN]. The people had themselves alone to blame, for they were long ago forewarned how to discern and to treat a false prophet ( Deu 13:3 ); the very existence of such deceivers among them was a sign of God's judicial displeasure (compare in Saul's case, 1Sa 16:14 28:6, 7 ). They and the prophet, being dupes of a common delusion, should be involved in a common ruin.

11. Love was the spring of God's very judgments on His people, who were incurable by any other process ( Eze 11:20 37:27 ).

12. The second part of the chapter: the effect which the presence of a few righteous persons was to have on the purposes of God (compare Gen 18:24-32 ). God had told Jeremiah that the guilt of Judah was too great to be pardoned even for the intercession of Moses and Samuel ( Psa 99:6 Jer 14:2 15:1 ), which had prevailed formerly ( Exd 32:11-14 Num 14:13-20 1Sa 7:8-12 ), implying the extraordinary heinousness of their guilt, since in ordinary cases "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man (for others) availeth much" ( Jam 5:16 ). Ezekiel supplements Jeremiah by adding that not only those two once successful intercessors, but not even the three pre-eminently righteous men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, could stay God's judgments by their righteousness.

13. staff of . . . bread--on which man's existence is supported as on a staff ( Eze 4:16 5:16 Lev 26:26 Psa 104:15 Isa 3:1 ). I will send a famine.

14. Noah, Daniel . . . Job--specified in particular as having been saved from overwhelming calamities for their personal righteousness. Noah had the members of his family alone given to him, amidst the general wreck. Daniel saved from the fury of the king of Babylon the three youths ( Dan 2:17, 18, 48, 49 ). Though his prophecies mostly were later than those of Ezekiel, his fame for piety and wisdom was already established, and the events recorded in Dan 1:1 - 2:49 had transpired. The Jews would naturally, in their fallen condition, pride themselves on one who reflected such glory on his nation at the heathen capital, and would build vain hopes (here set aside) on his influence in averting ruin from them. Thus the objection to the authenticity of Daniel from this passage vanishes. "Job" forms the climax (and is therefore put out of chronological order), having not even been left a son or a daughter, and having had himself to pass through an ordeal of suffering before his final deliverance, and therefore forming the most simple instance of the righteousness of God, which would save the righteous themselves alone in the nation, and that after an ordeal of suffering, but not spare even a son or daughter for their sake ( Eze 14:16, 18, 20 ; compare Jer 7:16 11:14 14:11 ).
deliver . . . souls by . . . righteousness-- ( Pro 11:4 ); not the righteousness of works, but that of grace, a truth less clearly understood under the law ( Rom 4:3 ).

15-21. The argument is cumulative. He first puts the case of the land sinning so as to fall under the judgment of a famine ( Eze 14:13 ); then ( Eze 14:15 ) "noisome beasts" ( Lev 26:22 ); then "the sword"; then, worst of all, "pestilence." The three most righteous of men should deliver only themselves in these several four cases. In Eze 14:21 he concentrates the whole in one mass of condemnation. If Noah, Daniel, Job, could not deliver the land, when deserving only one judgment, "how much more" when all four judgments combined are justly to visit the land for sin, shall these three righteous men not deliver it.

19. in blood--not literally. In Hebrew, "blood" expresses every premature kind of death.

21. How much more--literally, "Surely shall it be so now, when I send," &c. If none could avert the one only judgment incurred, surely now, when all four are incurred by sin, much more impossible it will be to deliver the land.

22. Yet . . . a remnant--not of righteous persons, but some of the guilty who should "come forth" from the destruction of Jerusalem to Babylon, to lead a life of hopeless exile there. The reference here is to judgment, not mercy, as Eze 14:23 shows.
ye shall see their . . . doings; and . . . be comforted--Ye, the exiles at the Chebar, who now murmur at God's judgment about to be inflicted on Jerusalem as harsh, when ye shall see the wicked "ways" and character of the escaped remnant, shall acknowledge that both Jerusalem and its inhabitants deserved their fate; his recognition of the righteousness of the judgment will reconcile you to it, and so ye shall be "comforted" under it [CALVIN]. Then would follow mercy to the elect remnant, though that is not referred to here, but in Eze 20:43 .

23. they shall comfort you--not in words, but by your recognizing in their manifest guilt, that God had not been unjustly severe to them and the city.</font>

According to your holy book, those who remember the laws of their god and stand fast in them, shall not stumble. Christians seem to have a short attention span, and cannot even remember the first four commandments handed down to them through Moses, so they stumble all over the place. Allow me to paraphrase them here for you:

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me. <font color="green">(Like Jesus, for example?)</font>
2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven (or molten) image. <font color="green">(I'm pretty sure this would include statues of Jesus or the Virgin Mary.)</font>
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy god in vain. <font color="green">(In light of the first commandment, I wonder if the god of the Old Testament would consider it blasphemy to call on Jesus as God?)</font>
4) Thou shalt remember the sabbath day and keep it holy. <font color="green">(Must a <i>pagan</i> remind <i>Christians</i> that their sabbath is <i>Saturday</i>, and not <i>Sunday</i>?)</font>

So the stumblingblock was apparently sent to separate the wheat from the chaff, and I really cannot see another purpose for him:

<font color="red">Isaiah 5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

Isaiah 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

Isaiah 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

Isaiah 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

Isaiah 5:5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:

Isaiah 5:6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

Isaiah 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

Isaiah 5:8 Woe unto them that join house to house, [that] lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!

Isaiah 5:9 In mine ears said the LORD of hosts, Of a truth many houses shall be desolate, even great and fair, without inhabitant.

Isaiah 5:10 Yea, ten acres of vineyard shall yield one bath, and the seed of an homer shall yield an ephah.

Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, [that] they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.

Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.

Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Isaiah 5:15 And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:

Isaiah 5:16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

Isaiah 5:17 Then shall the lambs feed after their manner, and the waste places of the fat ones shall strangers eat.

Isaiah 5:18 Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:

Isaiah 5:19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know !

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Isaiah 5:21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

Isaiah 5:23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [i]so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 5:25 Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

Isaiah 5:26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:

Isaiah 5:27 None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:

Isaiah 5:28 Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind:

Isaiah 5:29 Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it.

Isaiah 5:30 And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.</font>

Do you see what I see?

Emerald

Emerald,

You started with a quote of mine but then you said some things which didn't seem to apply to me so I'm not sure if your question was directed to me.

If so, then - I think I see what you see, with a subtle but important difference. In the police officer analogy above, the criminal's stumbling block is actually the crime but the criminal sees the police officer as the stumbling block. Here is another situation analogous to the way I read most of the quotes presented:

A lead carpenter sends his framing assistant to the top of a ladder with a nail gun for the purpose of nailing some upright two-by-fours to a header to complete the frame of a window. When the assistant carpenter arrives at the top of the ladder, he comes across a stumbling block - some of the two-by-fours have dislodged from their positions and are no longer flush with the header. The framing assistant then uses the body of the nail gun like a sledge hammer and bangs the two-by-fours into position - flush with the header. Finally, the assistant nails the two-by-fours to the header and completes the frame.

The nail gun was sent to the top of the ladder as a tool for nailing, not banging. However, the nail gun 'became' a sledge hammer to the assistant who was faced with an obstacle, thereby enabling the assistant to remove the obstacle and to finally use the nail gun for what it was sent up to do... nail.

Do you see what I see?

Mirror,

Originally posted by mirror
I think it's more a matter that Jesus 'becomes' a stumbling block for those who do not accept Jesus as their savior.

Let's say a police officer's 'role' is to protect and serve. However, when the police officer sees a robbery in progress and thwarts the robbers attempt, the police officer then 'becomes' a stumbling block - to the criminal.

I think you're halfway there! The police officer analogy is a good one if you consider the use of undercover cops who pose as drug dealers or prostitutes, in order to lure would-be criminals into exposing themselves as lawbreakers. Law-abiding citizens will not be lured, but criminals inevitably will be. For criminals, the undercover police officer is truly a stumblingblock, but to law-abiding citizens, he/she is a godsend who is merely weeding out the riff-raff.

The main law written in the heart of every Jew is "G-d is One"; not two-in-one, not three-in-one - but ONE. To worship other gods is considered idolatry and clearly against the law of their god. Jesus is the undercover cop who exposes those who break God's law by going after other gods - hence, he is a stumblingblock to the idolaters, and a sanctuary for the keepers of God's law.

Does this make sense to you?

Emerald

Originally posted by mirror
A lead carpenter sends his framing assistant to the top of a ladder with a nail gun for the purpose of nailing some upright two-by-fours to a header to complete the frame of a window. When the assistant carpenter arrives at the top of the ladder, he comes across a stumbling block - some of the two-by-fours have dislodged from their positions and are no longer flush with the header. The framing assistant then uses the body of the nail gun like a sledge hammer and bangs the two-by-fours into position - flush with the header. Finally, the assistant nails the two-by-fours to the header and completes the frame.

The nail gun was sent to the top of the ladder as a tool for nailing, not banging. However, the nail gun 'became' a sledge hammer to the assistant who was faced with an obstacle, thereby enabling the assistant to remove the obstacle and to finally use the nail gun for what it was sent up to do... nail.

Do you see what I see?

I may see what you see, but I doubt we see it the same way. Here's a bit more on carpenters (and idol-makers and threshing instruments and chaff...):

<font color="red">Isaiah 41:1 Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near together to judgment.

Isaiah 41:2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow.

Isaiah 41:3 He pursued them, and passed safely; even by the way that he had not gone with his feet.

Isaiah 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 41:5 The isles saw it, and feared; the ends of the earth were afraid, drew near, and came.

Isaiah 41:6 They helped every one his neighbour; and every one said to his brother, Be of good courage.

Isaiah 41:7 So the carpenter encouraged the goldsmith, and he that smootheth with the hammer him that smote the anvil, saying, It is ready for the sodering: and he fastened it with nails, that it should not be moved.

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isaiah 41:9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

Isaiah 41:10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Isaiah 41:11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.

Isaiah 41:12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

Isaiah 41:13 For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.

Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 41:15 Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.

Isaiah 41:16 Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.</font>

Are we on the same page yet?

Emerald

Originally posted by tony1
Emerald,

Part of what's been bothering me here is why it should be considered a BAD THING that Jesus is a stumblingblock to the Jews.

It is pretty clear from scripture that Jesus is a stumblingblock. You've done a great job proving that.
While there may be some Christians who would themselves stumble at that, the concept is pretty clear.

From the point of view of monotheists, I suppose that laying a stumblingblock to catch idolaters doesn't seem like such a bad thing - kind of like an undercover cop dressed like a prostitute to catch unfaithful husbands doesn't seem like such a bad thing to the unhappy wives of those men. But what good does it do the men who are lured this way, other than to humiliate them and maybe take them out of circulation for awhile?

I wonder how the followers of Jesus will feel when they find out that he was working on the Vice Squad and was only there to lure them into a trap, which they so obligingly stumbled into. Originally he was sent only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but later expanded his efforts to include the Gentiles, after realizing that most Jews had full knowledge and understanding of the law of their god, and weren't falling into his trap. I guess he just wasn't making the kind of stats Daddy expected of him when he worked the Jewish neighborhoods.

I can't see that you would actually be setting out to preach the gospel, so you must have a different point to this. What is it?

I've pretty much stated my point, but I'll repeat it here for your benefit:

Well, that seems pretty clear to me - proselytizers, beware! Keep your stumblingblock to yourselves!

You see, all my life I've had to put up with well-meaning Christians who couldn't mind their own business, and were constantly trying to push their "savior" on me or my children in an apparent effort to save our wayward souls. 99% of them are very smug, "knowing" they have the one and only truth, as well as what's best for me and my eternal soul. Once my mother even went so far as to say that Christianity should be made the official religion in the United States, and that people should be forced to go to church! She realized what it sounded like after she said it, and admitted it might not be the best idea - but I really think she believes in her heart it would be the best thing for our country and its people. Very frightening and very sad.

That's not to say that it isn't fun to debate the issue in a public forum such as this one, and if I ever swayed the world to see things the way I see them, all my fun would be over with. I just don't like Christians coming to my door or accosting me in the supermarket parking lot in order to force their brand of "truth" on me. I've never had anything like this happen with the followers of any other religion. Why do Christians do it?

I suppose that when Christians learn to keep their religion and their stumblingblock to themselves, I won't feel so compelled to point out the error of their ways, according to their own holy book, to them.

Emerald

Originally posted by mirror
However, I think it's more a matter that Jesus 'becomes' a stumbling block for those who do not accept Jesus as their savior.
According to...

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
(1 Corinthians 1:23, KJV).

there is a distinction between the Jew and the Gentile.

Jesus is a stumblingblock to the Jews only.

Let's say a police officer's 'role' is to protect and serve. However, when the police officer sees a robbery in progress and thwarts the robbers attempt, the police officer then 'becomes' a stumbling block - to the criminal.
This is not very accurate.
The Jews have the word of God; they just can't understand what it means.
The stumblingblock idea comes from the fact that the OT prophesies about Jesus, yet the Jews just don't see that.

Just as you say that Jesus isn't merely a stumbling block, perhaps Christianity is not merely the weilding of a sword, however divisive it might be. I've seen lots of people get warm and fuzzy over Jesus. Maybe Christianity 'becomes' a bunch of warm fuzzies - to some people.
The word "merely" pretty much totals your point here.
Besides, Christianity doesn't "become" anything; it is what it is.

Originally posted by Emerald
According to your holy book, those who remember the laws of their god and stand fast in them, shall not stumble. Christians seem to have a short attention span, and cannot even remember the first four commandments handed down to them through Moses, so they stumble all over the place. Allow me to paraphrase them here for you:

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me. <font color="green">(Like Jesus, for example?)</font>
This is one reason Jesus is a stumblinblock to the Jews.

OTOH...
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(John 1:1, KJV).

2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven (or molten) image. <font color="green">(I'm pretty sure this would include statues of Jesus or the Virgin Mary.)</font>
This a Catholic problem, rather than a Christian problem.

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy god in vain. <font color="green">(In light of the first commandment, I wonder if the god of the Old Testament would consider it blasphemy to call on Jesus as God?)</font>
Again, a perfect example of Jews finding Jesus to be a stumblingblock.

see John 1:1 for Christians.

4) Thou shalt remember the sabbath day and keep it holy. <font color="green">(Must a <i>pagan</i> remind <i>Christians</i> that their sabbath is <i>Saturday</i>, and not <i>Sunday</i>?)</font>
Another Catholic thing.

Furthermore, the sabbath is a little different, anyway.

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
(Hebrews 4:8,9, KJV).

So the stumblingblock was apparently sent to separate the wheat from the chaff,
True enough...
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
(Luke 3:17, KJV).

and I really cannot see another purpose for him:
Too bad.

Originally posted by Emerald
The main law written in the heart of every Jew is "G-d is One"; not two-in-one, not three-in-one - but ONE. To worship other gods is considered idolatry and clearly against the law of their god. Jesus is the undercover cop who exposes those who break God's law by going after other gods - hence, he is a stumblingblock to the idolaters, and a sanctuary for the keepers of God's law.

Does this make sense to you?
Close.
Jesus isn't a stumblingblock to the idolaters. He is a stumblingblock to the Jews who keep the commandments.
Any idolaters are dead, if the Jews obey the law by stoning them

Originally he was sent only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but later expanded his efforts to include the Gentiles, after realizing that most Jews had full knowledge and understanding of the law of their god, and weren't falling into his trap. I guess he just wasn't making the kind of stats Daddy expected of him when he worked the Jewish neighborhoods.
Unique twist.

Jesus never did expand his efforts to include the Gentiles. He was long gone and ascended to heaven before Paul went to the Gentiles.

Of course, scripture is pretty clear that the Jews don't understand scripture...

And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
(2 Corinthians 3:13,14, KJV).

... well-meaning Christians... save our wayward souls. 99% of them are very smug, "knowing" they have the one and only truth, as well as what's best for me and my eternal soul.
Just out of curiosity, where does this eternal soul concept come from?
For you, that is.

You must have some idea that death is not death, but life somewhere else.

I just don't like Christians coming to my door or accosting me in the supermarket parking lot in order to force their brand of "truth" on me. I've never had anything like this happen with the followers of any other religion.
They may not be Christians. They may be pseudo-Christians whose specific purpose is to piss you off thus depriving you of eternal life.
OTOH, you figure you already have it, which is the other function of fake Christians.

So, it appears that the fakes have got you from both directions. You are pissed off AND you believe you live for ever.

I suppose that when Christians learn to keep their religion and their stumblingblock to themselves, I won't feel so compelled to point out the error of their ways, according to their own holy book, to them.
Undoubtedly, you find it quite easy to do this in most cases, especially where fake Christians are concerned.
Interestingly enough, I have my work cut out dealing with fake Christians also.

This is where guys like Dennis McKinsey come in.
In having no actual understanding of the Bible, he is (was?) forced to attack the inconsistencies apparent in any false Christianity.
Thus for me, it was a great timesaver reading his stuff, because he was basically attacking false doctrine, although from an atheist perspective.
He couldn't attack true doctrine because he simply didn't know what it is.

However, you should consider that this is a game with very high stakes, i.e. life.

Why you would consider that winning and losing should have the same end result is somewhat strange to me.

Tony,

The <i>Sunday</i> sabbath is a <i>Catholic</i> thing? Really? So when the Protestants broke off from the Catholic Church, they all changed their sabbath back to Saturday? Let's see, which Christians observe the sabbath on Saturday? Well, there's the Seventh Day Adventists...and then there's, uh, well uh, er...what other Christians observe the sabbath on Saturday, Tony? Are you a Seventh Day Adventist, by any chance?

Here's a bit more on the sabbath - from the Old Testament:

<font color="red">Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that within thy gates:

Exodus 20:11 For [i]in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Exodus 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Leviticus 16:31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.

Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Deuteronomy 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deuteronomy 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Isaiah 56:2 Blessed is the man [that] doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

Jeremiah 17:21 Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;

Jeremiah 17:22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

Jeremiah 17:24 And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;

Jeremiah 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.</font>

Do you think maybe he meant it? Didn't Jesus say that he came to uphold the law? Or did he just give us the <i>impression</i> that that's what he was saying? :confused:

Emerald

Tony,

You think that Jesus was a stumbingblock to the Jews who kept the commandments? Where did that notion come from? Surely from none of the following verses:

<font color="red">Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.


Ezekiel 14:2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 14:3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?

Ezekiel 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

Ezekiel 14:5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.</font>

How could it be that you don't see this? Is it possible that you love not the truth?

Emerald

Originally posted by Emerald
The <i>Sunday</i> sabbath is a <i>Catholic</i> thing? Really? So when the Protestants broke off from the Catholic Church, they all changed their sabbath back to Saturday? Let's see, which Christians observe the sabbath on Saturday? Well, there's the Seventh Day Adventists...and then there's, uh, well uh, er...what other Christians observe the sabbath on Saturday, Tony? Are you a Seventh Day Adventist, by any chance?
Nope, not SDA.

Mind you, I didn't say that everyone understands the concept, either.

This sabbath thing will give you a lot of ammunition against Christians who blindly follow Catholic doctrine, but not against me.

Here's a bit more on the sabbath - from the Old Testament:

<font color="red">Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that within thy gates:
11 For [i]in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Leviticus 16:31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.

Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Deuteronomy 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deuteronomy 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Isaiah 56:2 Blessed is the man [that] doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

Jeremiah 17:21 Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;
22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

Jeremiah 17:24 And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;

Jeremiah 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.</font>

Do you think maybe he meant it? Didn't Jesus say that he came to uphold the law? Or did he just give us the <i>impression</i> that that's what he was saying?

There is some evidence in the Bible that he meant it.

This is a most peculiar situation, in that I use those very same scriptures to argue against sabbath observance.

I add several more, though.

And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.
(Lamentations 2:6, KJV).

Since the sabbaths are forgotten, they aren't the same ones as the ones that are remembered.

Thus, you are quoting those verses to back up observance of sabbaths which are remembered, which are not the ones that are forgotten.


Jesus, being the Lord who caused the sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, does remember which are which.

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
(Hebrews 4:8, KJV).

It should be relatively obvious that we do not need to labor to enter into Saturday, since all we have to do is wait for Friday to go away.

Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
(Hebrews 4:11, KJV).

Thus, the sabbath does not follow Friday (or any other day of the week).

It does appear in the Bible, though...

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
(Revelation 1:10, KJV).

There it is, the last day.

Originally posted by Emerald
You think that Jesus was a stumbingblock to the Jews who kept the commandments? Where did that notion come from?
From here...
For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
(Leviticus 17:14, KJV).

This is why the Jew cannot be a Christian without being converted.

Surely from none of the following verses:

<font color="red">Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Ezekiel 14:2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.</font>

I see several things there...
Ezek. 3:20 says that when a righteous man turns from his righteousness, God will put a stumblingblock before him.
The stumblingblock being Jesus, who is the word of God, means that the righteous will have a word of correction made available. If he stumbles, he dies.
If he repents, he lives.

The passage from Ezek. 14 is especially interesting in that the stumblingblocks are the idols. Additionally, the answer from the Lord through the prophet will be in proportion to the number of idols, presumably in such a way as to be more misleading with more idols.

How could it be that you don't see this? Is it possible that you love not the truth?
I'm pretty sure I don't see quite the same things you do.

OTOH, is it possible that you love not the truth?
Delusion is the result of that.

Of course, arguing who is delusional would be pointless, since the other person is always the delusional one.

Tony,

Originally posted by tony1
From here...
For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
(Leviticus 17:14, KJV).

This is why the Jew cannot be a Christian without being converted.

This appears to be another of your famous non-sequiturs. Can you explain what you mean by that? Are you saying that Christians actually eat blood? I realize that they sometimes drink wine or water in remembrance of the blood of Christ's sacrifice, but I was unaware that any of them actually eat blood. In fact, the New Testament contains similar prohibitions:

<font color="red">Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.</font>

At any rate, I fail to see how Jesus would be a stumblingblock for a Jew who keeps the commandments of his god - that just doesn't make any sense, Tony. Why would the god of the Jews send a stumblingblock to ensnare Jews who are keeping his commandments? That's like saying the undercover officer who is standing on the street corner dressed up as a prostitute was sent there as a stumblingblock for the little child who's selling girl scout cookies. Jesus was a stumblingblock because he came disguised as a god so that he could ensnare idolaters who failed to pay attention when their god said that he was their only god and savior and there are none else beside him.

When the supervisor of the Local Vice Squad decides it's time to crack down on prostitution in the area, an undercover officer is sent out to entice the would-be johns, dressed as, what? The Easter Bunny? If it is determined that drug trafficking is the problem, does the undercover agent dress up as Barney? Well, when the Jewish god decided it was time to crack down on idolaters, he sent out one of his undercover agents, appropriately disguised.

The passage from Ezek. 14 is especially interesting in that the stumblingblocks are the idols. Additionally, the answer from the Lord through the prophet will be in proportion to the number of idols, presumably in such a way as to be more misleading with more idols.

Now you're starting to get it! The stumblingblocks are the <i>idols</i> because God is out to ensnare <i>idolaters</i>!

I'm pretty sure I don't see quite the same things you do.

Is it because you're not capable of seeing it, or are you <i>refusing</i> to see it?

OTOH, is it possible that you love not the truth? Delusion is the result of that.

Not just any old delusion, mind you - <i>strong</i> delusion. And it takes some pretty strong delusion to believe that God decided to be born as his own son 2000 years ago, and to be crucified to save you from your sins, and to serve as a stumblingblock to the Jews who love him and keep his commandments - particularly when he was very clear on these points previously.

Emerald

Tony1,

My original point was that I did not interpret the given quotes the way that Emerald did... That is, I had not seen any quotes which substantiated what seemed to be her original assertion that Jesus was sent "merely" as a... stumbling block. On this point, the three of us now seem to agree.

However, you continue to refer to this verse in scripture in what seems to be an effort to substantiate your belief that Jesus was sent "as" a stumbling block to the Jews:

"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
(1 Corinthians 1:23, KJV)."

In this sense, I believe "stumblingblock" and "foolishness" are allegories which are being used to get an idea across. You?

Next, you go on to say:

"there is a distinction between the Jew and the Gentile.

Jesus is a stumblingblock to the Jews only. "

Again, I do not see how this or any of the other quotes substantiate an assertion that Jesus was sent "as" a stumbling block... to the Jews or anyone else - unless you take this literally...??? If that is the case, then you must also believe that Jesus was sent "as" foolishness.

According to that verse from 1 Corinthians, in context, for those Jews who are looking for a sign and for those Greeks who are looking for wisdom - when the paradox of the cross doesn't do it for them - it is their lack of understanding that is the obstacle (not Jesus).

You seem to be agreeing with this when you say:

"The stumblingblock idea comes from the fact that the OT prophesies about Jesus, yet the Jews just don't see that."

So, what is your final answer. ;) Is the assertion that Jesus was sent "as" a stumbling block a fact or an idea? Or, does Jesus "become" a stumbling block to those who don't yet understand? As you know, I opted for the latter interpretation. I think the consistent message throughout scripture was that Jesus was sent "as" a savior.

On another note:

Distinctions are being made between "the Jew" and "the Gentile" which I think are subordinate to and distract from the primary distinction - which is the distinction between those who are called and those who are not called (Jews and Gentiles alike).

On yet another note:

"Besides, Christianity doesn't "become" anything; it is what it is."

Have you developed a comprehensive definition of Christianity (which includes sword wielding)? What is it, please?

Emerald,

Honestly? Although your theories are interesting, I don't see you substantiating them with scripture. I think that your experiences with individuals as you described above have probably tainted your view of Christianity which has caused you to stumble and grasp for the proverbial chaff as far as your interpretation of the scriptures are concerned.

Originally posted by Emerald
This appears to be another of your famous non-sequiturs. Can you explain what you mean by that? Are you saying that Christians actually eat blood? I realize that they sometimes drink wine or water in remembrance of the blood of Christ's sacrifice, but I was unaware that any of them actually eat blood. In fact, the New Testament contains similar prohibitions:

<font color="red">Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.</font>
Jesus did say the wine was his blood...

And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
(Mark 14:23,24, KJV).

Of course, there may be a quibble with the terms "eat" vs "drink."

At any rate, I fail to see how Jesus would be a stumblingblock for a Jew who keeps the commandments of his god - that just doesn't make any sense, Tony. Why would the god of the Jews send a stumblingblock to ensnare Jews who are keeping his commandments?
That's the stumblingblock right there.

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
(Isaiah 6:10, KJV).

That's like saying the undercover officer who is standing on the street corner dressed up as a prostitute was sent there as a stumblingblock for the little child who's selling girl scout cookies.
It might look like that to you, but I suspect a certain bias.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
(Luke 16:16, KJV).

Obeying the commandments was great stuff until John showed up. After that, the kingdom of God is preached.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(Galatians 3:24,25, KJV).

School is out.
Anyone found on the schoolgrounds now, is a trespasser.

Jesus was a stumblingblock because he came disguised as a god so that he could ensnare idolaters who failed to pay attention when their god said that he was their only god and savior and there are none else beside him.
Given your ever so slight antichristian bias, this may be what it looks like to you, but Jesus is enforcing the fact that school is out.

When the supervisor of the Local Vice Squad decides it's time to crack down on prostitution in the area, an undercover officer is sent out to entice the would-be johns, dressed as, what? The Easter Bunny? If it is determined that drug trafficking is the problem, does the undercover agent dress up as Barney? Well, when the Jewish god decided it was time to crack down on idolaters, he sent out one of his undercover agents, appropriately disguised.
LOL, but no.

Now you're starting to get it! The stumblingblocks are the <i>idols</i> because God is out to ensnare <i>idolaters</i>!
A lot of your point seems to be based on the idea that God is out to ensnare idolaters in a cosmic sting operation.
Why would he need to do that?
He knows who the idolaters are already, since the book of Ezekiel precedes the NT by a few centuries.

Is it because you're not capable of seeing it, or are you <i>refusing</i> to see it?
It could be that you are pointing in many directions at once, and my attention is directed in one direction.

Not just any old delusion, mind you - <i>strong</i> delusion. And it takes some pretty strong delusion to believe that God decided to be born as his own son 2000 years ago, and to be crucified to save you from your sins, and to serve as a stumblingblock to the Jews who love him and keep his commandments - particularly when he was very clear on these points previously.
I appreciate your statement about the "strong" delusion.
That is what it is, as opposed to some wishy-washy difference of opinion over some minor side issue.

Further, your thinking appears to be almost exactly in line with the thinking the Jews must have had going on about 2000 years ago.
After all, I would not think that you are in any way inferior to the best minds of 2000 years ago.

However, given that there is no other way to live for ever, that is the only game in town.
I note that you think you have eternal life, via an "eternal soul."
If you are incorrect in your assumption, you may be disappointed to put it mildly.

You may wish to remember that the way deception works, is that the deceived is convinced of the truth of her position.
Thus, I may look deceived to you, but if you are the deceived party, you will not know.
You will have all the proof you need for your position, you will be convinced of your position and any opposing position will look foolish.
After all, deceived does not mean confused.

Originally posted by mirror
My original point was that I did not interpret the given quotes the way that Emerald did... That is, I had not seen any quotes which substantiated what seemed to be her original assertion that Jesus was sent "merely" as a... stumbling block. On this point, the three of us now seem to agree.
Scary thought, given that I believe and Emerald does not, being a pagan.

However, you continue to refer to this verse in scripture in what seems to be an effort to substantiate your belief that Jesus was sent "as" a stumbling block to the Jews:

"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
(1 Corinthians 1:23, KJV)."

In this sense, I believe "stumblingblock" and "foolishness" are allegories which are being used to get an idea across. You?
They are pretty deadly allegories if they are allegories.

And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
(Matthew 21:44, KJV).

Next, you go on to say:
"there is a distinction between the Jew and the Gentile.
Jesus is a stumblingblock to the Jews only. "

Again, I do not see how this or any of the other quotes substantiate an assertion that Jesus was sent "as" a stumbling block... to the Jews or anyone else - unless you take this literally...??? If that is the case, then you must also believe that Jesus was sent "as" foolishness.

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
(1 Corinthians 1:27, KJV).

Who is more chosen than Jesus?

According to that verse from 1 Corinthians, in context, for those Jews who are looking for a sign and for those Greeks who are looking for wisdom - when the paradox of the cross doesn't do it for them - it is their lack of understanding that is the obstacle (not Jesus).
Of course, if Jesus weren't there, there would be nothing to understand.

So, what is your final answer. ;) Is the assertion that Jesus was sent "as" a stumbling block a fact or an idea? Or, does Jesus "become" a stumbling block to those who don't yet understand? As you know, I opted for the latter interpretation. I think the consistent message throughout scripture was that Jesus was sent "as" a savior.
I get this, but remember other passages in the Bible, also...

Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
(Ezekiel 3:20, KJV).

Admittedly, that verse above does not say "sent as," it says "I lay."

What would that stumblingblock be?

Distinctions are being made between "the Jew" and "the Gentile" which I think are subordinate to and distract from the primary distinction - which is the distinction between those who are called and those who are not called (Jews and Gentiles alike).

You are making the same distinction...

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(Romans 2:28,29, KJV).

Have you developed a comprehensive definition of Christianity (which includes sword wielding)? What is it, please?
No, I haven't.

"Christian" appears three times in the Bible.
All three times, it appears to be a term used by non-believers to describe believers.

Tony1,

In the context of Ezekiel 3:20, the stumbling block is that which causes one's death.

The message is basically a couple of warnings:

1) to be steadfast in righteousness because death could come at anytime. If death happens to come while one is in an unrighteous state, they will die an eternal death, even if they had otherwise been righteous throughout their lifetime. And...

2) if another knows of the unrighteousness, and does not warn the one who has fallen into unrighteousness, they will be held accountable for the eternal death of the other.

Mirror,

Originally posted by mirror
My original point was that I did not interpret the given quotes the way that Emerald did... That is, I had not seen any quotes which substantiated what seemed to be her original assertion that Jesus was sent "merely" as a... stumbling block. On this point, the three of us now seem to agree.

Do you have a frog in your pocket? I don't recall agreeing on any point. :confused:


According to that verse from 1 Corinthians, in context, for those Jews who are looking for a sign and for those Greeks who are looking for wisdom - when the paradox of the cross doesn't do it for them - it is their lack of understanding that is the obstacle (not Jesus).

And according to Isaiah, the stone of stumbling is also a rock of offense to both houses of Israel, as well as a gin and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem (see Isaiah 8:13-15); in other words - a trap.

It isn't their lack of understanding that keeps them from going after other gods their fathers didn't know, but rather their faith in the promises of their god that keeps them from straying from the path and falling into the trap set for those who were previously idolaters only in thought (until they actually fell for the whole Jesus-is-God gig when their god gave them strong delusions so that they would believe a lie).

Again, it's kind of like the undercover cops who can't make an arrest until someone actually commits a crime, and they catch them in the act (the fact that the criminal was lured into it by the police officer makes no difference).

Emerald

Tony,

Originally posted by tony1
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
(Luke 16:16, KJV).

Obeying the commandments was great stuff until John showed up. After that, the kingdom of God is preached.

So "for ever" really meant, "just until the new god shows up"?

<font color="red">Deuteronomy 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.</font>

A lot of your point seems to be based on the idea that God is out to ensnare idolaters in a cosmic sting operation. Why would he need to do that?

I would imagine for the same reason he needed to stick the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the middle of Eden, tell his two new human creatures (who didn't yet know wrong from right) not to eat from it, and then go away and leave them alone with the serpent. Didn't God already know that they would eat of the fruit? If he didn't know it, he's not omniscient - indeed, he's not even very bright. If he knew beforehand what would happen, what was the purpose of testing them? Doesn't this whole Jesus charade smack of the same kind of treachery all over again, but on a much larger scale? In fact, one of Jesus' remarks very much reminds me of the serpent's role in the garden:

<font color="red">John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.</font>

Oh darn - and Jesus went and withered the fig tree so they don't even have fig leaves with which to cover up their nakedness this time!

It could be that you are pointing in many directions at once, and my attention is directed in one direction.

Oh no, and here I thought I had been playing the same song over and over again for some time now. I was afraid the record was nearly worn out by now.

However, given that there is no other way to live for ever, that is the only game in town. I note that you think you have eternal life, via an "eternal soul."
If you are incorrect in your assumption, you may be disappointed to put it mildly.

When did I say that I thought I had eternal life or an eternal soul? What I said is something to the effect that the Christians I know are always working to save my <i>wayward, eternal soul</i> - "wayward, eternal soul" being spoken with a hint of sarcasm. That is a Christian concept (at least, with all the <i>other</i> Christians I know). I don't have any beliefs that are set in stone, in that regard.

You may wish to remember that the way deception works, is that the deceived is convinced of the truth of her position. Thus, I may look deceived to you, but if you are the deceived party, you will not know.
You will have all the proof you need for your position, you will be convinced of your position and any opposing position will look foolish.

Okay Tony, you've been baiting me to quote Matthew 7:3 for some time now, so here it is:

<font color="red">And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?</font>

Ugh - I feel so...cheap. ;)

Emerald

EMERALD,I love so much your heart,shine on me my lady...

I like Jews. They are so cute!

Emerald,

You asked: "Do you have a frog in your pocket?"

I admit my ignorance as to what this means.

You stated: "I don't recall agreeing on any point."

O.K., then. Total disagreement is alive and well. Tony1 will probably breath easier now.

You said: "And according to Isaiah, the stone of stumbling is also a rock of offense to both houses of Israel, as well as a gin and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem (see Isaiah 8:13-15); in other words - a trap."

In context, this comes from the Immanuel Prophecies, contained in Isaiah 6-12. In context, it follows 1-5 which addresses the moral deterioration of Judah and Jerusalem, its capital, at a time when its rulers were turning from faith to war. The main prophecy of 6-12 is that of the birth of Immanuel - "With us is God" - who will come "as" the savior to deliver Jerusalem. In context, the message is that the troubled people of Jerusalem are to form an alliance with God (not Assyria or other nations) and have faith that God will deliver Jerusalem. In context, 8:13-15 warns that Immanuel/God will become a stumbling block to those who don't understand the importance of the need to align with Immanuel/God and who choose alliance elsewhere.

"It isn't their lack of understanding that keeps them from going after other gods their fathers didn't know, but rather their faith in the promises of their god that keeps them from straying from the path and falling into the trap set for those who were previously idolaters only in thought (until they actually fell for the whole Jesus-is-God gig when their god gave them strong delusions so that they would believe a lie)."

I understand why you would feel this way if you don't understand or cannot accept the concept of Trinity. However, in context, that is not what the scriptures which you are quoting say.

Mirror,

Originally posted by mirror
You asked: "Do you have a frog in your pocket?" I admit my ignorance as to what this means.

Well, you had stated that "the three of us" were now in agreement that Jesus wasn't <i>merely</i> sent as a stumblingblock. I count you and Tony in agreement, which only makes two, and wondered if the third party was perhaps the frog in your pocket.

In context, 8:13-15 warns that Immanuel/God will become a stumbling block to those who don't understand the importance of the need to align with Immanuel/God and who choose alliance elsewhere.

The fact that Jesus wasn't named <i>Immanuel</i> is apparently an insignificant point.

But anyway, here's more on the sword/king of Babylon/waster/slayer/profane wicked prince of Israel/stumblingblock/whatever the disguise of the day (Mirror, some of this may not make sense to you unless you've followed some of my conversations with Tony in other threads as well):

<font color="red">Ezekiel 21:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 21:2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel,

Ezekiel 21:3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.

Ezekiel 21:4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:

Ezekiel 21:5 That all flesh may know that I the LORD have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.

Ezekiel 21:6 Sigh therefore, thou son of man, with the breaking of thy loins; and with bitterness sigh before their eyes.

Ezekiel 21:7 And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tidings; because it cometh: and every heart shall melt, and all hands shall be feeble, and every spirit shall faint, and all knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 21:8 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 21:9 Son of man, prophesy, and say, Thus saith the LORD; Say, A sword, a sword is sharpened, and also furbished:

Ezekiel 21:10 It is sharpened to make a sore slaughter; it is furbished that it may glitter: should we then make mirth? it contemneth the rod of my son, as every tree.

Ezekiel 21:11 And he hath given it to be furbished, that it may be handled: this sword is sharpened, and it is furbished, to give it into the hand of the slayer.

Ezekiel 21:12 Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel: terrors by reason of the sword shall be upon my people: smite therefore upon thy thigh.

Ezekiel 21:13 Because it is a trial, and what if the sword contemn even the rod? it shall be no more, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 21:14 Thou therefore, son of man, prophesy, and smite thine hands together, and let the sword be doubled the third time, the sword of the slain: it is the sword of the great men that are slain, which entereth into their privy chambers.

Ezekiel 21:15 I have set the point of the sword against all their gates, that their heart may faint, and their ruins be multiplied: ah! it is made bright, it is wrapped up for the slaughter.

Ezekiel 21:16 Go thee one way or other, either on the right hand, or on the left, whithersoever thy face is set.

Ezekiel 21:17 I will also smite mine hands together, and I will cause my fury to rest: I the LORD have said it.

Ezekiel 21:18 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,

Ezekiel 21:19 Also, thou son of man, appoint thee two ways, that the sword of the king of Babylon may come: both twain shall come forth out of one land: and choose thou a place, choose it at the head of the way to the city.

Ezekiel 21:20 Appoint a way, that the sword may come to Rabbath of the Ammonites, and to Judah in Jerusalem the defenced.

Ezekiel 21:21 For the king of Babylon stood at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways, to use divination: he made his arrows bright, he consulted with images, he looked in the liver.

Ezekiel 21:22 At his right hand was the divination for Jerusalem, to appoint captains, to open the mouth in the slaughter, to lift up the voice with shouting, to appoint battering rams against the gates, to cast a mount, and to build a fort.

Ezekiel 21:23 And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken.

Ezekiel 21:24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand.

Ezekiel 21:25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,

Ezekiel 21:26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.

Ezekiel 21:27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

Ezekiel 21:28 And thou, son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning the Ammonites, and concerning their reproach; even say thou, The sword, the sword is drawn: for the slaughter it is furbished, to consume because of the glittering:

Ezekiel 21:29 Whiles they see vanity unto thee, whiles they divine a lie unto thee, to bring thee upon the necks of them that are slain, of the wicked, whose day is come, when their iniquity shall have an end.

Ezekiel 21:30 Shall I cause it to return into his sheath? I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created, in the land of thy nativity.

Ezekiel 21:31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.

Ezekiel 21:32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.</font>


All this use of allegory and vague pronouns is terribly confusing, but nevertheless, I see some interesting things in this chapter. Who is the profane and wicked prince of Israel? And the sword of the king of Babylon? Is that the same sword that is furbished so that it glitters and is made bright? Would it be fair to say this sword is "The Shining One"?

What is the <i>trial</i> spoken of in verse 13? And what shall be no more? The sword or the rod?

Also, it is interesting to note that the word that was interpreted as "ruins" in verse 15 was this word:

<font color="blue">04383 mikshowl {mik-shole'} or mikshol {mik-shole'}

from 03782; TWOT - 1050c; n m

AV - stumblingblock 8, offence 2, ruins 2, offend 1, fall 1; 14

1) a stumbling, means or occasion of stumbling, stumbling block
1a) stumbling, fall
1b) means or occasion of stumbling, stumbling block</font>

I will have to pick up this thread later on, but please feel free to comment in the meantime.

Emerald

Javier~

Thank you kind sir, and welcome to Sciforums! Please feel free to join in the fray any time - the more the merrier! ;)

Emerald

Emerald,

You posted:

"All this use of allegory and vague pronouns is terribly confusing, but nevertheless, I see some interesting things in this chapter."

These Ezekeil passages prophecy the destruction of Jerusalem by king Nebuchdnezzar's Babylonian army and the invasion of Ammon by the Chaldeans.

"Who is the profane and wicked prince of Israel?"

Jerusalem.

"And the sword of the king of Babylon?"

Nebuchdnezzar's army.

"Is that the same sword that is furbished so that it glitters and is made bright?"

The swords are the armies which have been prepared for battle.

"Would it be fair to say this sword is "The Shining One"?"

Depends on what you think "The Shining One" is.

According to Ezekiel, the trial is the judgement of God concerning these cities. God has the power to stop the armies but will not because people of Jerusalem and Ammon have turned to crime, sin and wickedness and they will be no more.

Originally posted by mirror
In the context of Ezekiel 3:20, the stumbling block is that which causes one's death.

The message is basically a couple of warnings:

1) to be steadfast in righteousness because death could come at anytime. If death happens to come while one is in an unrighteous state, they will die an eternal death, even if they had otherwise been righteous throughout their lifetime. And...

2) if another knows of the unrighteousness, and does not warn the one who has fallen into unrighteousness, they will be held accountable for the eternal death of the other.

You make two good points there, but I think you need to look into what a stumblingblock actually is.
The stumblingblock is a rock.

You can either trip over it and die, be crushed by it or build on the rock, your choice.

Originally posted by Emerald
So "for ever" really meant, "just until the new god shows up"?
"For ever" is a word related to the concept of time.
When time ends, so do the concepts related to time.

I would imagine for the same reason he needed to stick the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the middle of Eden, tell his two new human creatures (who didn't yet know wrong from right)
Naturally, not knowing right from wrong may have been the reason God had to tell them not to eat of it.
not to eat from it, and then go away and leave them alone with the serpent. Didn't God already know that they would eat of the fruit?
I'm guessing he could figure it out.
<font color="red">John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.</font>
Well, of course.
You can't break a law that hasn't been passed yet.

Oh no, and here I thought I had been playing the same song over and over again for some time now. I was afraid the record was nearly worn out by now.
Well, the title of the song may be relatively clear, but some of the riffs are new.

When did I say that I thought I had eternal life or an eternal soul? What I said is something to the effect that the Christians I know are always working to save my <i>wayward, eternal soul</i> - "wayward, eternal soul" being spoken with a hint of sarcasm. That is a Christian concept (at least, with all the <i>other</i> Christians I know). I don't have any beliefs that are set in stone, in that regard.
Sorry, I thought I remembered something.

The "eternal soul" thing is not a Christian concept.
What it is, is a Platonic/Catholic concept mistakenly held by many Christians.

Okay Tony, you've been baiting me to quote Matthew 7:3 for some time now, so here it is:

<font color="red">And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?</font>

Ugh - I feel so...cheap.
Ah yes, the old lumberyard in the eyeball.
Now you see why I might have refrained from calling you anything.
The idea that "deceived does not equal confused" is true for anyone, including me.

My point isn't that you are deceived, but that you wouldn't know if you were.

Originally posted by mirror
You stated: "I don't recall agreeing on any point."

O.K., then. Total disagreement is alive and well. Tony1 will probably breath easier now.
Whew, yeah.

Originally posted by mirror
"Who is the profane and wicked prince of Israel?"

Jerusalem.

Odd - the writers of at least one of the available bible commentaries seem to think it's a reference to Zedekiah. I find the "Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown Commentary" to be of particular interest:

<font color="green">25. profane--as having desecrated by idolatry and perjury his office as the Lord's anointed. HAVERNICK translates, as in Eze 21:14 , "slain," that is, not literally, but virtually; to Ezekiel's idealizing view Zedekiah was the grand victim "pierced through" by God's sword of judgment, as his sons were slain before his eyes, which were then put out, and he was led a captive in chains to Babylon. English Version is better: so GESENIUS ( 2Ch 36:13 Jer 52:2 ).
when iniquity shall have an end-- ( Eze 21:29 ). When thine iniquity, having reached its last stage of guilt, shall be put an end to by judgment ( Eze 35:5 ).</font>

That sounds awfully familiar. It occurs to me that although the profane and wicked prince of Israel ostensibly refers to King Zedekiah, it occurs to me that the name "Zedekiah" could actually be a cryptic reference to a different individual. Let's take a look at the concordance for a clue as to who that individual might be:

<font color="blue">06667 Tsidqiyah {tsid-kee-yaw'} or Tsidqiyahuw {tsid-kee-yaw'-hoo}

from 06664 and 03050;; n pr m

AV - Zedekiah 62, Zidkijah 1; 63

Zedekiah = "Jehovah is righteous"
1) the last king of Judah renamed from 'Mattaniah' by Nebuchadnezzar; son of Josiah by wife Hamutal; placed on the throne by Nebuchadnezzar when he carried his nephew Jehoiakim in captivity
2) false prophet at the court of king Ahab of the northern kingdom of Israel
3) son of Maaseiah, a false prophet in Babylon
4) son of Hananiah, one of the princes of Judah in the time of Jeremiah
5) a priest who sealed the covenant with Nehemiah
6) son of king Jehoiakim of Judah</font>

At the risk of causing more confusion than I have already done, I would like to include here the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph, beginning with Jesse and working down from there:

<font color="purple">
1. Jesse

<font color="blue">2421 Iessai {es-es-sah'-ee}

of Hebrew origin 03448;; n pr m

AV - Jesse 5; 5

Jesse = "wealthy"
1) the father of David the king</font>

2. David

<font color="blue">1138 Dabid {dab-eed'}

of Hebrew origin 01732; TDNT - 8:478,*; n pr m

AV - David 59; 59

1) second king of Israel, and ancestor of Jesus Christ</font>

3. Solomon

<font color="blue">4672 Solomon {sol-om-one'}

of Hebrew origin 08010; TDNT - 7:459,1055; n pr m

AV - Solomon 12; 12

Solomon = "peaceful"
1) the son of David and was the wisest and richest king that ever lived</font>

4. Roboam

<font color="blue">4497 Rhoboam {hrob-o-am'}

of Hebrew origin 07346;; n pr m

AV - Roboam 2; 2

Rehoboam = "enlarger of the people"
1) the son of Solomon by an Ammonite princess Naamah</font>

5. Abia

<font color="blue">7 Abia {ab-ee-ah'}

of Hebrew origin 029;; pr n m

AV - Abia 3; 3

Abijah = "my father is Jah (Jehovah)"
1) a priest, the head of a priestly family from whom when David divided the priests into 24 classes, Abia was the 8th order
2) son and successor to Rehoboam on the throne of Judah</font>

6. Asa

<font color="blue">760 Asa {as-ah'}

of Hebrew origin 0609;; n pr m

AV - Asa 2; 2

Asa = "physician, or cure"
1) son of Abijah and king of Judah</font>

7. Josaphat

<font color="blue">2498 Iosaphat {ee-o-saf-at'}

of Hebrew origin 03092;; n pr m

AV - Josaphat 2; 2

Jehoshaphat = "whom Jehovah judges"
1) the king of Judah, son of Asa</font>

8. Joram

<font color="blue">2496 Ioram {ee-o-ram'}

of Hebrew origin 03141;; n pr m

AV - Joram 2; 2

Jehoram = "whom Jehovah has exalted"

1) the son of Jehoshaphat, king of Judah, succeeded his father on the throne of Judah</font>

9. Ozias

<font color="blue">3604 Ozias {od-zee'-as}

of Hebrew origin 05818;; n pr m

AV - Ozias 2; 2

Uzziah = "strength of Jehovah"
1) son of Amaziah, king of Judah from B.C. 810 - 758</font>

10. Joatham

<font color="blue">2488 Ioatham {ee-o-ath'-am}

of Hebrew origin 03147;; n pr m

AV - Joatham 2; 2

Jotham = "Jehovah is upright"
1) the son of King Uzziah or Azariah and Jerusha</font>

11. Achaz

<font color="blue">881 Achaz {akh-adz'}

of Hebrew origin 0271;; n pr m

AV - Achaz 2; 2

Ahaz = "possessor"
1) the eleventh king of Judah, son of Jotham</font>

12. Ezechias

<font color="blue">1478 Ezekias {ed-zek-ee'-as}

of Hebrew origin 02396;; n pr m

AV - Ezekias 2; 2

Hezekiah = "the might of Jehovah"
1) the twelfth king of Judah</font>

13. Manasses

<font color="blue">3128 Manasses {man-as-sace'}

of Hebrew origin 04519;; n pr m

AV - Manasses 3; 3

Manasseh = "forgetting"
1) the first born son of Joseph
2) the son of Hezekiah, king of Judah</font>

14. Amon

<font color="blue">300 Amon {am-one'}

of Hebrew origin 0526;; n pr m

AV - Amon 2; 2

Amon = "builder"
1) a king of Judah, son of Manasseh, and father of Josiah</font>

15. Josias

<font color="blue">2502 Iosias {ee-o-see'-as}

of Hebrew origin 02977;; n pr m

AV - Josias 2; 2

Josiah = "whom Jehovah heals"
1) king of Judah, who restored among the Jews the worship of the true God, and after a reign of thirty one years was slain in battle about 611 BC</font>

16. Jechonias

<font color="blue">2423 Iechonias {ee-ekh-on-ee'-as}

of Hebrew origin 03204;; n pr m

AV - Jechonias 2; 2

Jeconiah or Jehoiachin = "whom Jehovah establishes"
1) was the son of Jehoiakim, and for three months and ten days king of Judah until Nebuchadnezzar carried him into captivity (597 BC) :confused: </font>

17. Salathiel

<font color="blue">4528 Salathiel {sal-ath-ee-ale'}

of Hebrew origin 07597;; n pr m

AV - Salathiel 3; 3

Shealtiel = "I have asked of God"
1) the son of Jeconiah in the genealogy of Christ</font>

18. Zorobabel

<font color="blue">2216 Zorobabel {dzor-ob-ab'-el}

of Hebrew origin 02216;; n pr m

AV - Zorobabel 3; 3

Zerubbabel = "born at Babel, i.e. Babylon"
1) the head of the tribe of Judah at the time of the return from
Babylonish captivity in the first year of Cyrus</font>

19. Abiud

<font color="blue">