Life as an upload.

Making the assumption for the moment that Uploading WILL occur sometime in the future, then what will life be like as an upload? We will have to make further assumptions on the capabilities of an upload and the differences compared to biological forms.

I’ve copied the post from tablariddim from the Forum Introduction as a good start to this thread.

Originally posted by tablariddim
How can I have fun? What if I feel like going for a walk/jog/swim? What if I feel like playing my guitar/piano/willy? How can I skin up and have a smoke? How can I dance/jump/fuck/ride/drive etc? How can I have secret thoughts, or keep a secret when my memory is presumably accessible by others? (I'm talking about living in/as a computer)
Or will I be living in a completely virtual world with active memories of everything I mentioned and more, on demand?
Extremely traumatic, are the 2 words that spring to mind, now that I've been uploaded into a box. Or did you say that I will have my own independent all singing, all dancing, tough, hybrid body to do with as i please? Because that sounds more feasible and appealing.


Let’s assume for the moment the probable typical upload choice – that of the robotic or android like body shell. The early forms will probably not be too sophisticated but these would certainly be improved upon given a few decades and centuries for enhancements. I start the story at a time set a few decades into the upload movement when the body shells are more advanced and where there are whole cities of uploads.

Let’s also assume that all emotions and desires have been copied intact and that the body shell resembles a human form in most aspects. This would be the least traumatic choice in the beginning, but there would be no reason to limit oneself to just one shape of body shell. You could perhaps use a different shell at different times in the same way that we would change clothes today. If one is undertaking some form of construction task then a shell with 6 arms and telescopic joints might be useful. I suspect that our imagination and inventiveness will conceive some very strange and unrecognizable shells.

But first some basic differences from a bio existence.

1. No need to eat or drink, and hence no defecation or urinal needs.
2. Limbs and joints would not become tired from staying in one position for any length of time, so sitting or lying down would have little meaning or benefit.
3. No teeth to clean.
4. No nails to clip.
5. No hair to comb, brush, cut.
6. A regular wash and polish will probably be desirable.
7. A walk, jog, or run of any distance without tiring would be possible depending on battery reserves.
8. Sleep might not be needed, or its nature might be quite different and probably shorter.
9. Plugging oneself in or being near a wireless receiver for a regular daily brain dump (backup) to a central storage facility would be advisable, probably best done during a sleep cycle.
10. And swimming, great, no need to breath – but buoyancy will be different maybe.

Ok so that’s my first 10 items, feel free to add some more.

So about housing?

No kitchen needed, no bathroom, although some form of washing facility will be required, perhaps just a shower cubicle. Probably no bedroom, one could sleep (if needed) standing up. No heating or air conditioning needed. And enhanced infrared vision will mean that light levels could be near zero.

But what about sex? So much of our society is geared around this extremely powerful evolutionary instinct. An uploaded society with unlimited life spans would have little if any need to procreate. So recreational sex would be all that would be available. But the term ‘sex’ here also seems inappropriate. If the engineers have done their job well and have isolated the pleasure centers of the brain, then pleasure stimulating sensors could be placed anywhere on one’s shell, and the sensitivity and magnitude could also be adjusted. I imagine there would be a whole sub-culture and industry dedicated to variations on this theme. Either self-eroticism would be fine, or groups, or whatever – no limits – but it wouldn’t be biological, just more intense, if desired.

That’s enough for a start. Comments anyone?

Cris

I see a different type of shell to begin with.

Why would you need arms, Legs or anything else for that matter? The first shell may be a box, like a computer, that you will reside in but have complete control over. Your existence might be something like that of SID2000 in that one movie, can't recall the name at this point. Your own world, VR. Of course this will only be available to the extremely rich at firs. This makes for a very unusual class division. Eventually bodies will be needed as poorer people get uploaded into machines but these will not necessarily be bodies to live in, just control. No feeling will be necessary and design relatively simple. I see this as a much more powerful tool and easier to develop. There is no need of complex body structures to hoes people, just the CPU's themselves. Housing is unnecessary and you could visit mars without a problem. Just enter a body there and cruse around awhile. If you want to feel anything there, simply go to a simulation. I can only begin to imagine how man will interact within this new world. Ill guess Ill just have to wait and hope Ill see it.

FA,

Indeed a Virtual Reality environment may well be the initial training ground for uploads, and perhaps for some there would be no desire for any other form of existence. But there is still likely to be the need to work and at least fund one’s own power usage, and for this an existence in the physical world will almost certainly be required.

I agree that travel could be as easy as having one’s brain pattern transmitted to the target destination and uploaded into a suitable shell or holding device. The problem here will be the accidental creation of duplicates. At some point the original brain pattern must be purged from its source shell, presumably when the target shell reports a completed receipt. But I see potential for error and misuse here.

This introduces the issue of identity and duplicates in general. Do we want to have numerous copies of the same upload, e.g. instant families? And how should we assign identities in such a situation.

Cris

Costs and care.

Thinking about it a little more, I doubt that many uploads will have access to multiple shells. It is quite likely that a robotic shell will be a complex and sophisticated electro-mechanical machine that is both lightweight relative to its strength, and subtle and lithe, as we would expect from a bio-shell replacement. The cost of such machines is likely to be significant and only the very rich would be able to afford multiple versions.

Just like automobiles of today, the upload shells will very likely come in many types and models, the sophistication will depend on your wealth. The brain module, however, may well be a plug-in unit that can be upgraded independently of the shell. It is the brain unit that is the real you in the sense of how much memory you have and your processing speed (a significant factor in deciding your level of intelligence).

Given the significant cost of the hardware, uploads are likely to take significant care of their shells. If the shell is damaged beyond repair and the upload has too few funds then one could imagine a disabled upload with limited mobility or perhaps even limited to a VR environment. Perhaps having appropriate insurance might help prevent such conditions.

On the other hand the wealthy uploads may crash and damage their shells regularly and may even be prepared to risk damaging their brain units knowing that they have spare units that can accept their latest backups. To a large extent such irresponsible activities would serve little purpose since a destroyed brain unit will have lost all memory since the last backup. The upload once re-constituted from its backup will therefore have gained nothing from a fatal accident. So it seems likely that most uploads will take great care with protecting their shells and especially their brain units.

Cris

Hi all,

I personally don't see the use of uploading your mind to a mechanical device - which I think is, as was mentioned in the "Forum Introduction" thread, a way to avoid a mental or "conscious" death (by which I mean that you actually know that your last breathe of air will actually be the last).

Even if you succeed in copying your mind to a machine, you as a being are not transfered to it: that machine will be like a clone of yourself, but you will not be able to think what it thinks: from the moment the upload is complete, you've created a new entity that feels and thinks a lot like you, but isn't you. The same happens with the cloning of a person. Even though the clone looks the same and might resemble the "original" person a lot, they are two different beings who think individually.

So in the end your body and brain will still die and when you exhale your last breathe, you will know it's all over: you as a person, as an individual stop living at that moment. The only consolation you have is that somewhere out there, your memories are still contained within a box that will never be accessible to you again.

As a sidenote, I think we would need a large load of psychiatrists ready for our "uploaded" friends. In my personal opinion, it must be a very frustrating thought to know that you can or will live forever (I for one, am glad to know that one day I will die, and - sorry my religous friends - I do not believe in an afterlife). Imagine you would have to see generations and generations of humans come and make the same socio-political mistakes over and over again. Very frustrating indeed.

Nevertheless, if it ever happens (and Cris, you are right, it will happen one day), then it might be a good idea for society to think about all this (something we probably should have done a long time before the cloning of humans became a reality, which I think is closely related to this subject).

Bye,

Crisp

Crisp,

OK, I see your point, but exactly what aspect of the biological ‘person’ will not be transferred to the new format? One of the objectives of MU is that all memories must be transferred intact and the mind (the processing part) once uploaded must ‘feel’ the same. What else is there? The identity of a person is memory. Remove their memory and they have no identity.

Human cloning is entirely different to MU. In cloning only the physical structures will be the same, well almost. The memories and life experiences will be entirely different and that will create a very different individual compared to the original. I say the structure will be the same but the brain will absorb different experiences and will certainly have different neural connections, effectively creating new and unique electrical patterns.

Cris

Dear Cris,
let's see if I can answer your positive points here...

[1. No need to eat or drink, and hence no defecation or urinal needs.]


But we'll lose 4 fundamental pleasure feelings which are so intergral to being human. Also, eating and drinking is probably our greatest incentive to living and working! Some people actually live to eat, so great is the pleasure they derive from it.

Can you imagine NO food/beverage related industries? What will happen to all the unemployed?


[2. Limbs and joints would not become tired from staying in one position for any length of time, so sitting or lying down would have little meaning or benefit.]


Again, we lose pleasure feelings. You know, like the pleasure of resting or relaxing after a hard day. Or the ecstasy of going beyond your own pain barrier, as happens to joggers.


[3. No teeth to clean.]
[4. No nails to clip.]
[5. No hair to comb, brush, cut.]


I can live with that, but again we shall lose massive industries! And all vain people will have nothing to think/talk/worry about.


[6. A regular wash and polish will probably be desirable.]


Very much so, it will probably have to be extremely elaborate, to make up for the losses mentioned above.


[7. A walk, jog, or run of any distance without tiring would be possible depending on battery reserves.]


No challenge--no fun. No pain--no gain. No need--no point! Batteries? Too primitive and inefficient, better to eat and drink our energy needs, perhaps boosted by batteries!


[8. Sleep might not be needed, or its nature might be quite different and probably shorter.]


Loss of pleasures and industries.


[9. Plugging oneself in or being near a wireless receiver for a regular daily brain dump (backup) to a central storage facility would be advisable, probably best done during a sleep cycle.]


Man, I'm reluctant to even give my Email address to some central storage facility, let alone my brain! It's a non-starter.


[10. And swimming, great, no need to breath – but buoyancy will be different maybe.]


Ok, but if it's not for the exercise and the pleasures and benefits associated with it, who would want to?


Further,
(A) I think our bodies, feelings, emotions, instincts etc, are so intertwined with our minds (which process information in organically and subtly unique ways for each individual), that it may actually be impossible to emulate humans fully.
(B) Assuming we do create these super-humans (and even super-animals) and they WILL be. It would mean the end of humanity as we know it, with unknown and incredibly mind boggling challenges to this species and others.
(C) A species that will probably be able to colonise other planets pretty soon after it's created, will have absolutely no incentive to look after and care for this planet, or it's inherent life forms.
(D) This new species will eventually have no respect and no need, for the remainder of humanity.
(E) With no need for food or drink, or oxygen, no pain, no sickness, super intelligence and virtual immortality. Whatever incentives this new species will need to do things, is both unfathomable and probably, incredibly dangerous to its creators.


You know, they say God created man in his own image. I look at what we're attempting to do now and it makes me wonder... did we kill God?

Hi Cris,

OK, I see your point, but exactly what aspect of the biological ‘person’ will not be transferred to the new format? One of the objectives of MU is that all memories must be transferred intact and the mind (the processing part) once uploaded must ‘feel’ the same.

Ah, now we're getting to the one and only assumption you make when you say that you can live forever after the death of your body: You assume that once your mind has been uploaded, you will consciously know, think and feel the same as your uploaded mind.

I think this is not what will happen, and mostly for philosophical reasons:

How do you know who you are ? Because you think you are yourself. You are reading this now, and you are sitting in your chair. You experience all this in person. Your eyes perceive the flashes of light from your screen. You feel your hand on your keyboard, mouse or desk (or whereever it is now). Because everything you experience are senses that originate from some part of your own body, you know you are yourself. A person standing next to you knows he is not the one sitting in your chair because he can feel his own weight on the ground, in his feet. You feel your weight from your bottom in that chair.

Suppose you attach a set of "eyes" (or camera's, CCD's) to the machine your mind has been uploaded to, and in some ingenious way figure out how to connect this to your mind-in-the-machine. Do you see what your mind in the machine sees ? If you walk out of the room where your uploaded mind-in-the-machine is, will you still consciously know everything that happens in that room ?
I don't think so : simply because the perceptions your emulated mind-in-the-machine-in-the-other-room has, are no longer experienced by your own mind.


Let's do a small gedankenexperiment. In the year 2020, you, Cris, get your mind uploaded to a machine which we shall call "Risc".

Sidenote: this name is just something that popped in my head - do not start searching for any meanings in it, please. That is not the intention :).

So in the year 2020, we have two copies of the exact same brain: one is the actual brain in Cris, the other is the emulated brain in Risc. If we ask Cris what year he was born, he will say "1970" (fictional). If we ask the very same thing to Risc, he will also say "1970" because the emulated neurons process that question in the same way the real neurons in Cris' brain would.

Now let's seperate them for a year. Cris can go on with his life, and we put Risc in a room and start lecturing him/her an advanced course in quantummechanics. Cris however, has never had such a course.

Sidenote: Replace "highly advanced course in quantummechanics" with whatever you do not know yet at the time of uploading - my excuses to you Cris if you happen to be a QM-specialist, I just have to make something up here :)

After one year, we bring Cris and Risc back together and ask them to solve a problem that only someone who has had that highly advanced course in QM could solve.

Question: While we are sure Risc will be able to solve it, will Cris be able to do so too ?

Once again: I think he will not (in the light of this gedankenexperiment that is, see previous sidenote). The knowledge gained by Risc in emulated/mechanical neurons is not transmitted to Cris' neurons, because the two brains/minds are physically seperated. Once the upload is complete, all perceptions, thoughts and memories of Risc are independant of those of Cris.

In the light of the "How do you know who you are" argument stated above, you can say that Risc is another "person". Risc and Cris both know and remember the same things up to that glorious day in 2020 when the upload occured. From that moment on, the thoughts of Risc and Cris got seperated and they lived on as two different persons afterwards.

So to get back to the meaning of the mind uploading as a way to cheat death: the biological mind dies, and it knows this (when you exhale your last breath and feel your body slipping away, the last thing that flashes through your mind will be "this is the last time i will breathe out"). In the meanwhile, your uploaded mind just lives on as it always has, not knowing its original biological counterpart has passed away. Your biological mind is no longer aware of this: it is not able to perceive, feel and know things the uploaded mind does.

This reminds me of a documentary I once saw on a woman whose brain got split in two parts (during an operation). Both parts of her brain functioned independantly: when she was dressing up, one hand would grab a robe while the other already was holding a pair of pants. She did not consciously know her other hand was holding that pair of pants, suggesting that she, at that time had two personalities.

I'll need someone with more experience in the field to help me out on this one, but I think this example can be used to prove my point: there are indications that neural networks hold their memories not in individual neurons, but in the network as a whole. The information just degrades if some neurons of the network stop functioning/disappear, but the memory itself never completely disappears. The amount of degradation is related to the amount of neurons that stop functioning. So if you split a neural network in half, you would get two networks with the same memories, operating independantly.

Replace "neural network" by "brain", and remark that human brains only use 5-10% of their capacity (meaning that if half of the neurons are missing, the influence on the memories is not that large), and you get the situation of that particular woman. Two individuals in one body, unaware of eachother's presence. This scenario can be copied directly to the "one-mind-in-one-body and uploaded-mind-in-machine" situation we are discussing here.

What else is there? The identity of a person is memory. Remove their memory and they have no identity.

I've tried to avoid to use of the word, but ... soul ?

Bye!

Crisp.

Originally posted by Crisp
As a sidenote, I think we would need a large load of psychiatrists ready for our "uploaded" friends. In my personal opinion, it must be a very frustrating thought to know that you can or will live forever (I for one, am glad to know that one day I will die, and - sorry my religous friends - I do not believe in an afterlife). Imagine you would have to see generations and generations of humans come and make the same socio-political mistakes over and over again. Very frustrating indeed.

Nevertheless, if it ever happens (and Cris, you are right, it will happen one day), then it might be a good idea for society to think about all this (something we probably should have done a long time before the cloning of humans became a reality, which I think is closely related to this subject).
I foresee a great market in MU clinics, perhaps using the name "McKevorkians" (not registered, use it if you wish), where minds will be uploaded, for a fee, of course. I see great potential in the $25-50K range, with fewer options available below that range, and a much larger number of options for substantially higher sums.

Naturally, oh silly me, artificially, there will be a tasteful room, unnamed but perhaps called the departorium. where the less enlightened can bid adieu to the dearly departed, no, the merely transferred.
Also, there will be the body shop, er, the computer room, no... the...arrivorium, yes, the arrivorium, where the more enlightened can welcome the newly transferred into his beige box.

Naturally, drat, artificially, there will be a gift shop where one can purchase tasteful bumper stickers with such heart-warming little maxims as, "My knee STILL hurts" or "married, but not dead, oh sorry, dead but still here, and STILL married" or "What was I thinking? Where's that box of disks?" or "Congratulate me. I willed everything to myself" or "Bon U-turn" or "Caution. No one on board." Of course, there will be an on-site legal and psychiatric team to handle such things as probate, computer-in-law issues and antiquated statutes that refer to "persons," etc.

Yes, as Crisp, says, "a large load."

How could this be good? How do you know you wouldn't be used as a application, like the one you use every day. You would not learn anything new because you would not be able to grow new braincells all that would be transferred would be memories. you would end up of living you're life as a slave to the mind computing data and pushing binary all day long.(reminds me of where I work). And transferring you're memories is all you want then theoretically we already can... try telepathy!(read my other posting on telepathy).
I could see cloning yourself and implanting the memories at a young age could be good but that clone would never evolve it would have the same genetic structure as you. all you would be able to do is learn a eternity of knowledge.
and live one to. And is you're mind that important were all this time and effort would pay off to preserve you're brain I don't see you working for jpl or president or anything of that sort.

Hi Geneva,

Originally posted by geneva
How could this be good? You would not learn anything new because you would not be able to grow new braincells

Don’t think ‘brain cells’ think neural connections. These would be implemented in software and would begin with the potential of having far more connections than the biological equivalent. Each node would effectively be a chain of pointers to other nodes. It is these connections between nodes that form the thought and memory patterns. The chains would be constantly undergoing changes and new patterns would be being formed and destroyed. The only limitations would be the sizes of the arrays allowed in the software and there would be no good reason to set these low. If the uploaded person begins to ‘feel’ limits to thoughts or memories then that would signal that a memory upgrade is due. Memory in this sense will be the chip media holding the neural connection data.

In essence there should be no limitations to neural growth, unlike a biological being whose cranial size and neural firing speeds seriously limits growth and further rapid evolutionary changes.

Cris

Geneva,

That seemed like an interesting random selection of ideas. I’m not sure they flowed together very well.

the nurokentics would have to use nano technology at that point
I’m not really comfortable with nano technology yet but I see MU as requiring a coordinated massively parallel processing paradigm, whereas nano techniques seem to be based more on uncoordinated independent processing. So I don’t see that nano techniques would be good substrate for an uploaded mind.

why not grow a human brain
I suspect this will occur as a method for procreation – i.e. creating new individuals. But MU must start with the transfer/transition of existing individuals – i.e. a copy of neural patterns.

it would be twice as easy half the price and more efficent. because the strain for the mind to be transffered would comotose any normal mind because each brain has a diffrent nurological structure due to the growth and natural genetics

I have no real feel for price in either case. Efficiency wouldn’t be relevant since the objective is an instant transfer/transition/upload. I agree that recognition and prevention of transition trauma may well be an issue. I would hope that a new upload could perhaps be uploaded gradually, similar to a human being having sedation medications slowly withdrawn, and thus avoiding the sudden shock of transition from one form to another instantly. The upload mechanism will of course take into account the individual patterns – there is no implication that all uploads will be the same.

i would see this as more of a wall in evolution of the human mind then a leap
Nope, I don’t understand what you meant by that.

Human is constantly evolving naturally in fact every hundred years we start off with thousands of more brain cells, By uploading are minds to computers and artificial bodies we would stop are natural process of evolution the line between man and machine is already very fuzzy and some points vanish's.
By definition of machine we are bio organic machines, are minds can be programmed, and self programmed to do the things we want.
The current defining point is the self programmability.
which is what are definition of intelligence is. But this difference does not exist anymore, there is a super computer in Belgium that can program itself at a incredible rate. The first true signs of artificial intelligence, but if its intelligent an creates it own reality and learns, is it artificial NO. artificial intelligence is man made smarts, where it is programmed to simulate intelligence but follows the same rules programmed into it.
This may not seem to be relivent to the topic but look closer.
There is still one defining point between robotics and machinery and its within are genetics. its the ability to evolve through procreation, to pass are traits and characteristics.
And by depending on machines it would put a slow death to the species we call human. through lack of procreation we all would not live forever through uploading are selfs, because who would maintain it.
To be continued......

Geneva,

Some key points. The rate of human biological evolution is measured in perhaps, thousands of years but practically it is millions of years. The process is also very random. Most mutations turn into dead-ends; only very few turn out to be useful. The transition away from a biological medium allows us to more easily control future changes and in the right direction. Future human evolution can be non-random and always positive. This rate of change will be measured in decades perhaps and at least just centuries. This represents a massive and dramatic fundamental change for humanity.

What you call natural is simply a very slow directionless random process.

I dislike the term Artificial Intelligence. Something is either intelligent or it isn’t, there is nothing artificial about intelligence. What is usually implied by the term is the comparison between human intelligence and non-human intelligence, and for now that means machine intelligence, which I think is a slightly better term.

Improving the human race through human procreation will be seen as an incredibly slow process compared to the technology approach implied by MU. Simply relying on bio genetic mutations or human directed genetic engineering will always be significantly slower that the MU route.

I suspect there will be those cults that will reject the MU route and they will be simply left behind on the ladder of intelligence. The MUs will be able to massively out-think bio humans within decades or centuries, becoming a new form of life. Bio-humans will be to MUs as apes are to humans now, if not worse.

Cris

Luca is a word that means were we cam from, we evolved not from one life form but all life forms.
Luca was a era in evolution were organisms would enhirete the genes of another organism through feeding as time went one multiple creations were spawned but lived symbiotic with each other like plants and animals. We give them the carbon dioxide and nutrients in the soil, and we breath it s oxygen and feed from the nutrients I gives us. If were to break that chain every thing else around would collapse.
Evolution has no peak we evolve to the surrounding environment, and we as human create the environment to which we evolve to so we could be any thing we want, tough skin, and fast reflex you need not robotics for it that would be a shortcut that leads to the same thing, IF you are willing to jump down the ledge. (who knows where the shortcut may end us, after all the path is stable ground).
After all we can do things robotics could never handle.
I can not say against it, science is are god no matter what form. but there are the things to do, to do good for us, and there are the things to do, for the sake of doing. I can not be the judge of the results and consequences', I can only speculate. The result will depend on how we use the technology. You don't think Einstein planned to have his famous equation used to construct the atomic bomb did you? and after this how much technology do you think he released?not that much!

Quote by Cris:
--The transition away from a biological medium allows us to more easily control future changes and in the right direction. Future human evolution can be non-random and always positive.--

Who decides the direction? Why always positive? Again, who decides the 'correct' line of evolution?

Tab,

By whom I mean the human race as opposed to a random directionless bio-chemical process.

And by positive and correct direction I mean choices that do not result in fatal deceases, or chronic deformities, e.g. no dead-end mutations.

Now if you want answers as to which individuals or groups will make the decisions as to which enhancements will be made then I don’t have good answers to that yet.

Cris

Originally posted by geneva
Human is constantly evolving naturally in fact every hundred years we start off with thousands of more brain cells,
You may be working with the year 1900 issue, then.

By uploading are minds to computers and artificial bodies we would stop are natural process of evolution the line between man and machine is already very fuzzy and some points vanish's.
You need to quit toking just before you sit down at the keyboard.
Your fingertips are where man ends. The keys are where machine begins.
And by depending on machines it would put a slow death to the species we call human. through lack of procreation we all would not live forever through uploading are selfs, because who would maintain it.
To be continued......
You're missing the point of MU. The MU fans believe that maintenance won't be necessary.
Along with your mind being uploaded, will be the ability to self-repair.

Originally posted by Cris
What you call natural is simply a very slow directionless random process.
MU would be a fast directionless, random process, then?
I dislike the term Artificial Intelligence. Something is either intelligent or it isn’t, there is nothing artificial about intelligence. What is usually implied by the term is the comparison between human intelligence and non-human intelligence, and for now that means machine intelligence, which I think is a slightly better term.
"Artificial Intelligence" does have a meaning. It means faked intelligence, as in the responses programmed into applications to simulate intelligence.

As such, it will play a large role in MU.
Fakery will play the largest role in MU for the simple reason that it will be impossible to tell if an "uploaded" individual is real or faked, excuse me, artificial.
Impossible, that is, for those who have blind faith (as in superstition, Cris) in technology.

I suspect there will be those cults that will reject the MU route and they will be simply left behind on the ladder of intelligence. The MUs will be able to massively out-think bio humans within decades or centuries, becoming a new form of life. Bio-humans will be to MUs as apes are to humans now, if not worse.

I'd pay $10 to watch Cris sacrifice himself on the altar of MU.
Oops, did I say that out loud?
I mean, I would pay to watch Cris upload himself, perhaps by using the microtome method.

Originally posted by geneva
Luca is a word that means were we cam from, we evolved not from one life form but all life forms.
Caution: this could be one of those cults that will be left behind on the ladder of intelligence.

Originally posted by Cris
Now if you want answers as to which individuals or groups will make the decisions as to which enhancements will be made then I don’t have good answers to that yet.
Review the history of communism, naziism and fascism to get an idea of what group might want to make decisions related to this issue.

Tony1 , are you mocking me or agreeing with me?
dont think you fully understand either.
As i said before there is science for the furthering of mankind and there is science for the sake of doing you tell me the purpose of this and to top it all off you guys take this way to seriously when it does happen do you think are goverment will allow it, and do you want to be the test subject
(in regards to chirs), or would you have a choice when the time comes?

Evolution is were you evolve to best suite you're surrounding environment. We as humans create are own environment there for we have made it random no more.
you could hardly say it is random.
And luca is a scientific term highly used.
What profession do you work in you sound like you are 17 by the way you talk

quote:
______________________________________
You need to quit toking just before you sit down at the keyboard.
Your fingertips are where man ends. The keys are where machine begins.
______________________________________

you are so wrong artificial limbs have been around for hundred of years scientist are working with implants for the eye to make blind see and countless other things automobile replacing horse watches that use you're movement and body heat to power then

:D
greed will not allow the greedy to reign forever
others will sabotage the efforts of the missguide
do-good'rs
and think of all the spoilt (poor little rich ___)
that wont get daddys inheratence... :)
ps the main drive of the people who would afford to fund the research would not forgo superficial plesures that mean all their world to them :)
and another little thought....whos to say we dont have uploaded(as you call it) clones walking the earth at this very moment...........?
groove on all

Originally posted by geneva
Tony1 , are you mocking me or agreeing with me?
I have to admit, there's a lot of mockery involved.

I'm having a hard time keeping a straight face when discussing MU.

I find it particularly hard to understand how a bunch of otherwise sane people could think that sand can become sentient by engraving a pattern on it and attaching it to a battery.

you are so wrong artificial limbs have been around for hundred of years scientist are working with implants for the eye to make blind see and countless other things automobile replacing horse watches that use you're movement and body heat to power then
You're saying that machinery when attached to a human being is no longer machinery, but human, even when it is removed?

Originally posted by ripleofdeath
greed will not allow the greedy to reign forever
others will sabotage the efforts of the missguide
do-good'rs
and think of all the spoilt (poor little rich ___)
that wont get daddys inheratence...
ps the main drive of the people who would afford to fund the research would not forgo superficial plesures that mean all their world to them
and another little thought....whos to say we dont have uploaded(as you call it) clones walking the earth at this very moment...........?
groove on all
But who's to say there aren't a bunch of bodies walking the earth at this very moment whose minds have already been uploaded, say, into outer space?

thats sorta what im talking about in the reverse
i hope i didnt sound like i was mocking anyone.... :/ .. ?
i dont belive that machinery can emulate life
as a soul type being
theres too much psychic stuff around to insinuate that humans are a program in a machine as such
...
does that make more sense?

I agree with riple of death, you should read my other posting on telepathy you may find it interesting i think that we all agree even though are arguments have diffrent points they still have a goal, " Nothing good could come from this"

pretty!

Originally posted by geneva
Evolution is were you evolve to best suite you're surrounding environment. We as humans create are own environment there for we have made it random no more.
you could hardly say it is random.
And luca is a scientific term highly used.
What profession do you work in you sound like you are 17 by the way you talk

quote:
______________________________________
You need to quit toking just before you sit down at the keyboard.
Your fingertips are where man ends. The keys are where machine begins.
______________________________________

you are so wrong artificial limbs have been around for hundred of years scientist are working with implants for the eye to make blind see and countless other things automobile replacing horse watches that use you're movement and body heat to power then

************************************************** ***************
Evolution! ......The energy provided by the sun, first.

From that energy, the various bio-combinations & mutations that attempt (generally by trial & error) to find a niche so as to absorb the energy.

Depending on the environmental conditions, it is thus possible to define the types of life which will mutate & thus evolve to fill the energy niche!

In the same aspect of evolutional logic, it is reasonable to be able to predict the kinds of life that might exist on other worlds.

Simply this: If there is energy to be used, then there will be some form of life that will evolve so as to take advantage of it!

Even a lowly dung beetle, who finds a heaping helping of energy to be used.

Or a microbe, who sees a smorgasborg in evolving constantly to feed on the most excellent form of food today:::::::::::::::::::the human race.

Germs & disease are the biggest threats to the human race. We are just an inexhaustable supply of food to the forms of life that aren't even aware of us!

To the microbes, we are Cheezeburgers & fries!!!!!

Originally posted by Cris
Life as an upload.

Making the assumption for the moment that Uploading WILL occur sometime in the future, then what will life be like as an upload? We will have to make further assumptions on the capabilities of an upload and the differences compared to biological forms.

I’ve copied the post from tablariddim from the Forum Introduction as a good start to this thread.



Let’s assume for the moment the probable typical upload choice – that of the robotic or android like body shell. The early forms will probably not be too sophisticated but these would certainly be improved upon given a few decades and centuries for enhancements. I start the story at a time set a few decades into the upload movement when the body shells are more advanced and where there are whole cities of uploads.

Let’s also assume that all emotions and desires have been copied intact and that the body shell resembles a human form in most aspects. This would be the least traumatic choice in the beginning, but there would be no reason to limit oneself to just one shape of body shell. You could perhaps use a different shell at different times in the same way that we would change clothes today. If one is undertaking some form of construction task then a shell with 6 arms and telescopic joints might be useful. I suspect that our imagination and inventiveness will conceive some very strange and unrecognizable shells.

But first some basic differences from a bio existence.

1. No need to eat or drink, and hence no defecation or urinal needs.
2. Limbs and joints would not become tired from staying in one position for any length of time, so sitting or lying down would have little meaning or benefit.
3. No teeth to clean.
4. No nails to clip.
5. No hair to comb, brush, cut.
6. A regular wash and polish will probably be desirable.
7. A walk, jog, or run of any distance without tiring would be possible depending on battery reserves.
8. Sleep might not be needed, or its nature might be quite different and probably shorter.
9. Plugging oneself in or being near a wireless receiver for a regular daily brain dump (backup) to a central storage facility would be advisable, probably best done during a sleep cycle.
10. And swimming, great, no need to breath – but buoyancy will be different maybe.

Ok so that’s my first 10 items, feel free to add some more.

So about housing?

No kitchen needed, no bathroom, although some form of washing facility will be required, perhaps just a shower cubicle. Probably no bedroom, one could sleep (if needed) standing up. No heating or air conditioning needed. And enhanced infrared vision will mean that light levels could be near zero.

But what about sex? So much of our society is geared around this extremely powerful evolutionary instinct. An uploaded society with unlimited life spans would have little if any need to procreate. So recreational sex would be all that would be available. But the term ‘sex’ here also seems inappropriate. If the engineers have done their job well and have isolated the pleasure centers of the brain, then pleasure stimulating sensors could be placed anywhere on one’s shell, and the sensitivity and magnitude could also be adjusted. I imagine there would be a whole sub-culture and industry dedicated to variations on this theme. Either self-eroticism would be fine, or groups, or whatever – no limits – but it wouldn’t be biological, just more intense, if desired.

That’s enough for a start. Comments anyone?

Cris


DAMNIT CRIS, I RESEMBLE THOSE LISTED REMARKS!!!

Hi Tab,

Sorry for the late reply to your thought provoking post, I’ll do my best to catch up.

[1. No need to eat or drink, and hence no defecation or urinal needs.]

But we'll lose 4 fundamental pleasure feelings which are so intergral to being human. Also, eating and drinking is probably our greatest incentive to living and working! Some people actually live to eat, so great is the pleasure they derive from it.

Every physical and many mental pleasures that we enjoy have been the result of the evolutionary process. These pleasure mechanisms are the essential processes that have resulted in our survival. Sexual pleasure is the easiest to understand – a powerful and almost irresistible force that results in reproduction and the survival of the species. Food and drink also had to be pleasurable because without those desires many would simply have died of starvation. And in these times of plenty obesity is now a major problem in all the wealthy countries of the world – the search for pleasure but with dangerous side effects.

All these pleasures are not integral to being human they are integral to our survival as fragile biological mechanisms. What would be ideal would be to replace the biological connection and simply absorb the pleasure for the sake of pleasure.

If survival is guaranteed, then these primitive survival mechanisms serve no useful function. We can replace them with alternative pleasures. E.g. Devised activities that have a purposeful function – pleasure. Remember all these primitive instincts are derived from specific brain patterns. We should be able to achieve a state where these ‘instinct’ patterns are removed and replaced by specific pleasure patterns, magnified perhaps beyond your current dreams.

Can you imagine NO food/beverage related industries? What will happen to all the unemployed?
Yup no problem. There have been many times when I simply want to continue with a particular task and am forced to take breaks to eat and drink. To be free of an enforced regime will be highly desirable. Massive unemployment would only be a problem if everyone uploaded at the same time. I suspect that the phase shift will occur more gradually and the food industry will simply fade away and uploads will find other work to do.

Consider what happened to the horse industry when automobiles appeared at the end of the 19th century.

[2. Limbs and joints would not become tired from staying in one position for any length of time, so sitting or lying down would have little meaning or benefit.]

Again, we lose pleasure feelings. You know, like the pleasure of resting or relaxing after a hard day. Or the ecstasy of going beyond your own pain barrier, as happens to joggers.
Again we will find alternative pleasures once we are freed from fragile biological shells. How about a game of 3D chess and lets see who can retain up to 1000 moves ahead?

[7. A walk, jog, or run of any distance without tiring would be possible depending on battery reserves.]

No challenge--no fun. No pain--no gain. No need--no point! Batteries? Too primitive and inefficient, better to eat and drink our energy needs, perhaps boosted by batteries!

Indeed physical prowess will have little meaning since your physical abilities will be determined by the quality of the shell you can afford. The challenges you see is being able push a fragile mechanism to its limits. The challenges as an upload will no longer be physical but will be cerebral. This is the logical next phase to our evolutionary process. We have moved from thoughtless single celled organisms up through the various life forms, each with increasing mental abilities. You must agree I hope that it is the human brain that has allowed us to take control and dominate the planet.

So now instead of wasting your time jogging (something I’ve always felt a waste of time anyway) try exercising your brain and write a book – now that would be of great pleasure – the pleasure of creativity – and that is a true worthwhile challenge.

[8. Sleep might not be needed, or its nature might be quite different and probably shorter.]

Loss of pleasures and industries.
We spend a third of our lives unconscious, much of that time is in REM sleep (dreaming) but very few people remember much of any dreams. If you didn’t need to sleep then you’ll have plenty of time to write another novel – a much greater pleasure than being completely unaware. And, hey, cheaper homes – no bedrooms needed.

[9. Plugging oneself in or being near a wireless receiver for a regular daily brain dump (backup) to a central storage facility would be advisable, probably best done during a sleep cycle.]

Man, I'm reluctant to even give my Email address to some central storage facility, let alone my brain! It's a non-starter.
Ah that’s just distrust of new technology. The equivalent 100 years ago would be a fear to give someone your phone number. I have a laptop with a 20GB drive; all the changes are backed up daily to a central site through my home 3Mb/s cable connection or office LAN. It works very well. Give it another 50 years and the technology will have matured. Besides I manage a software engineering department specializing in fault tolerant systems so you simply come to me for guaranteed reliability.

[10. And swimming, great, no need to breath – but buoyancy will be different maybe.]

Ok, but if it's not for the exercise and the pleasures and benefits associated with it, who would want to?
Exercise and benefits are only associated with that fragile biological shell again. But the pleasures will be enormous. You will still have external sensors, for feeling and temperature, and texture sensing; perhaps more sensitive than the bio equivalents, and certainly you would be able to feel the water around you. But what about the sheer pleasure of being able to walk on the ocean floor without the aid of complex breathing equipment, and be able to see very clearly all the undersea life around you in a way much sharper than anything you could achieve as a bio human. And with enhanced hearing be able to enjoy the many sounds created by numerous sea creatures.


(A) I think our bodies, feelings, emotions, instincts etc, are so intertwined with our minds (which process information in organically and subtly unique ways for each individual), that it may actually be impossible to emulate humans fully.
I agree that there will be many challenges, but I don’t think impossible, that implies that it could never happen. I think the issue is just one of complexity and ultimately achievable by using increasing powerful computers to unravel the permutations – a task already way beyond the capabilities of the current human mind. New computer chips are already partially designed by predecessor computers.

(B) Assuming we do create these super-humans (and even super-animals) and they WILL be. It would mean the end of humanity as we know it, with unknown and incredibly mind boggling challenges to this species and others.
Yes I agree, and many have foreseen this and the term ‘singularity’ has been associated with this probably very rapid change in our evolution beyond which it is very difficult to predict what will happen. The leading thinkers in this field see this as inevitable – the arrival of super-intelligence. Some predict a future battle between true AI lifeforms and humans and whether humans can upload fast enough to compete with AI. But this must be a whole new thread.


(C) A species that will probably be able to colonize other planets pretty soon after it's created, will have absolutely no incentive to look after and care for this planet, or it's inherent life forms.
Out of the predicted countless billions of other worlds in the galaxy then it is right that this planet is seen with no inherent importance other than it was where we began. Out of all the animals in the world a very large portion are bred by us to be slaughtered for food. That barbarism will end and the cattle, sheep, fowl, fish, etc will be allowed to evolve without our interference in their lives. Our interest in the planet will be as a home for some and which we would want to be comfortable, and with colonization of other worlds then overpopulation will have been solved. This will result in less of a drain on any planetary resources. The return of the vast areas of agricultural and grazing land to wilderness will result in a significantly more healthy atmosphere that will be far better suited to the other life forms.


(D) This new species will eventually have no respect and no need, for the remainder of humanity.
By this I assume that you feel that some humans will refuse to upload. If so then it will not be respect that is at issue but intelligence. The uploads with enhanced intelligence will see remaining humans as we currently view the limited abilities of chimpanzees, i.e. largely irrelevant.


(E) With no need for food or drink, or oxygen, no pain, no sickness, super intelligence and virtual immortality. Whatever incentives this new species will need to do things, is both unfathomable and probably, incredibly dangerous to its creators.
Finally without the endless painful struggle to survive the evolved human mind will be free to explore the universe and to learn and create. I cannot conceive of any greater motive for life. Compare this to religions that proffer the same things – immortality (expected through an afterlife), heaven without pain and sickness, and then what do the beings in the afterlife desire? What will be their incentives to do things?

You know, they say God created man in his own image. I look at what we're attempting to do now and it makes me wonder... did we kill God?
Yes, at the very moment we experienced our first rational thought.

Take care
Cris

Life As An Upload
…An interesting concept One that has been knocked around at times by the sci-fi crowd.
I would think that it would be hard to separate the brain from the body. It is not just the pleasure/pain aspect. The body pumps loads of hormones into itself. Not all are for the good. Especially the lack of them or if they aren’t regulated properly. There are many and varied medical doctors to see to a lot of the results. Every thing from Alhimers to Diabetes. But it isn’t all diseases. I mean we’re talking a lot of time that evolution has been tweaking the human race. Not only is the body aspect to be considered. Many studies have shown that isolation from stimulus and outside reaction to the environment leads to sensory deprivation. Now I heard in several of the posts that sight, touch, and sense, would be altered to fit conditions or needs. How would the mind react to that? Sure it knows that it has been altered and why. But not always does the mind agree with what it perceives. I would see it more as not an upload but as a temporary transference. Maybe you do your work by connecting into the company network from home and operating a machine or oversee a process from afar.
…and then again maybe I’m not with the program so to say.
If the food industry saw that it’s market was drying up, most of the large franchises wouldn’t belly up. They’d see the future and change what they dispense. If not food then perhaps energy. Or twitching the brains’ pleasure centers.
For a vacation like you’ve never experienced, without leaving the niche you now reside in… link into McDonalds for further details on this fantastic voyage. You’ll never know you weren’t there. Purchase virtual souvenirs while on your vacation!
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I’m not ready for such. It just seems to foreign to me. Something I can’t accept or envision. Call me old fashion.

RIGHT ON WET 1 !!!!!!!!!!!!

I would have written that very thing, if I could write that well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow, I found a whole forum dedicated to the thoughts that I've been rolling around in my head for the past couple days!

First, no one can be certain whether uploading would transfer your conciousness or not, since we have no idea what produces that effect. There would be no conceivable way to test it either, because conciousness can not be measured or determined. The machine might have all your memories and your personality, and would answer all questions as you would, but it might or might not be you in there.

Even now, the technology grows closer and closer... I read an article the other day about scientists that successfully linked an eel brain into a small robot. The robot, with no programming of its own, would then follow light picked up by a sensor. The machine/organism adapted to varying degrees of light. The eel brain adapted to the machinery and different stimuli and managed to move the robot.

The applications discussed in the article were better artificial limbs that could be hooked into the central nervous system and offer actual control. What if these new artificial limbs are stronger and more useful than human limbs? It would follow that those that could afford them would want them, barring ethical considerations. But those that do will pave the way for the blurring of man and machine. When new biotechnology is created, people will think, "We've gone as far as mechanical arms, so why not electronic livers?" and so on and so forth until it will be reasonable to replace your brain with an electronic counterpart. And it all begins with an eel brain moving towards a light... I certainly hope I get to see these developments in my lifetime.

Hi BD,

Welcome to sciforums and especially this forum.

I think you are correct that biotechnology will gradually improve and enable humans to replace bio organs with superior electro-mechanical versions, until as you say, electronic brains as well.

And that brings us to the question of consciousness. This seems to be no more than a concept that has been used to describe something that we cannot fully explain. But why is that? If one considers all the less complex organs which we can largely explain, then should there be any doubt that soon the brain will also be explainable in mundane terms. It was not too long ago when the internal operation or even the existence of organic cells was unknown. The brain is simply more complex than other organs so it is inevitable that it will take us longer to explain or understand.

I would suggest that there is nothing special about consciousness that will not be fully explained by neural brain activity and chemical messaging systems. This would be fully consistent with all other bodily organs. So the transfer of all memories and personality is ALL that there is.

I liked the eel story, hadn’t heard about that.

The problem, that I think we share, is that we need to keep our bio bodies alive long enough so we can take advantage of these new technological developments. This means one of two things –

1. Stay fit and healthy through proper diet and exercise and hope that science will be able to increase life spans further or even cure the disease of aging.
2. Preserve your body or brain through the use of cryogenics or the new vitrification techniques.

The problem with (1) is that we would remain vulnerable to fatal accidents, murder, or even suicide. Although I suspect that our optimistic views of the potential new future will tend to lead us away from ideas of suicide.

Option (2) seems to be the most promising for the moment although conventional cryogenics still has problems with tiny ice crystals that form as part of the freezing process. These cause significant cell damage making it difficult to see how a frozen brain could be adequately resurrected in the future. Vitrification seems to overcome the crystal problem but the technique has not been perfected yet.

The overwhelming advantage of having a brain that can be fully digitized is that it can be easily copied and backup-up – effective immortality. Endless upgrades and significant resilience compared to bio organs, come in a close second.

In the meantime learning how to survive is all we can do. Maintaining good health and fitness most certainly, but avoiding risky ventures, including avoiding actions that can result in disease come next. Other ideas include learning self-defense and the use of weapons for self-protection is also important. And finally the accumulation of wealth as it seems most likely that the new technologies will be in high demand and hence initially expensive.

Have fun surviving
Cris

About the consiousness download.

First of all we are taking a leap of faith if we believe this will be possible at all. Maybe there are some problems involved that are simply to big to overcome...
However suppose one can copy one's consciousness into a machine. What you are doing is not transferring yourself but making a clone of yourself which happen to have the same memories and mannierisms but resides in a machine in stead of in a biological brain.
Besides if you can make one copy, you might as well make 10 or more copies. Each will have identical memories and behaviour but will still be different identities that can interact with each other just like twins or clones.
So what is it that you want to do then ? Kill the biological carrier of the consiousness (that will be you of course) and keep the electronic copies ? I don't think you will like it...
Every way you cut it you will still die (ultimatly of old age) while your electronical counterpart will be able to go on.

So if I gather this right what Plato is saying is that some one else will benefit from your download while you never actually get what it was that you were after. Or several some ones. Given that might it be possile that those someones would like to keep the original program around incase of errors in the program? Not that it would do them anymore good than you. And what would they do to ensure the original remained unchanged? Put you in cryo-storage?

And if the original is destroyed after the copy is made, (breaking the mold) that certainly doesn't help for what you came after. Anymore than the end result. Could you be copied without your knowledge and the copy downloaded? What a scam. Move in and claim everything you own. Take your life savings. Murder you and become you complete with all knowledge except for the time it takes from download to move in.

Sounds like a bad sci-fi movie. I told you I wasn't ready for this!

And I forgot, welcome to the forums braindrain. You found it now what will you do with it? Something promising I hope!

hey braindrain :)
happy surfin

what about muscle memory?

try referring to some martial arts theory for more specific discription and then onto some of the sites that talk of dna memory. good luck :)

natural selection would be destryod to a point where we might only get one person left(the richest and the greedyest)
:D
groove on all

Plato

About the consiousness download. First of all we are taking a leap of faith if we believe this will be possible at all.
I hope I do not believe anything by way of faith. Our only uncertainty as to whether it can be done is based on the realization that it has never been done before. I agree the plan seems ambitious, but the gain for humanity will be immense, and well worth the effort to make it work.

Maybe there are some problems involved that are simply too big to overcome... Ah you sound like a pessimist – seeing problems before they even exist. Let’s say there are likely to be some challenges. But really the human brain is a simple organ, there are no moving parts, and the nature of the neuron and its connections (the basic building block) is repeated a large number of times. Once the fundamentals are understood then most of the problems will be solved.

The approach to downloading is not that we have to understand emotions and personalities and how brain patterns create these effects, but to simply and accurately re-create the mechanisms that cause the desired effects. I would agree that if we attempted to understand all the psychoses of the human mind then we are likely to be still trying to the end of time. We are trying to copy and not to redesign.

However suppose one can copy one's consciousness into a machine. What you are doing is not transferring yourself but making a clone of yourself which happen to have the same memories and mannierisms but resides in a machine in stead of in a biological brain. Awright, you have it exactly. But you imply that this is a problem. Why would this be a problem? If the copy were accurate, i.e. identical, then you would then exist as two individuals, a bio being and a non-bio being. They would both be YOU. The real problem is how do we re-define what is meant by identity in this new paradigm?

Besides if you can make one copy, you might as well make 10 or more copies. Each will have identical memories and behaviour but will still be different identities that can interact with each other just like twins or clones. Yes, although they will be identical at the point of the upload and then will start to diverge and follow their own paths, much, as you say, like twins. But would we want this to happen? Here we would see new laws that protect the right of the individual, literally on the issues of identity ownership. But there would be financial and economic considerations. Presumably there will be a considerable cost for the initial upload from a bio brain to a non-bio brain. If the next stage is to assume a robotic body then such a mechanism is also likely to be significantly costly. To have 10 of them might be too exorbitant. But why would someone want to have 10 copies of themselves? Where would they all live? Wouldn’t they all want to exist in the same home and have access to the same possessions? I think that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages and that typically this would not be a desirable state of affairs. They would all need to work to pay for the energy costs as well, would the jobs be available?

I could imagine a state where an identity has to be licensed and at a considerable cost. The replication of yourself as another clone, e.g. instant family member, might be seen as a personal right (in the way that people procreate now) or as an imposition on the existing society. We have choices, how do we decide?

So what is it that you want to do then ? Kill the biological carrier of the consiousness (that will be you of course) and keep the electronic copies ? I don't think you will like it... The issue of the transition might well be tricky. I want to see the transfer as a smooth transition from bio to non-bio with no overlap. That implies some form of euthanasia. Perhaps it should not be looked on as death but as identity transfer. The brain scanning technology as currently envisaged requires that the brain is sliced very finely to allow accurate scanning – i.e. you are already dead before the upload takes place. If this approach is the norm then the issue of identity transfer is solved.

Every way you cut it you will still die (ultimatly of old age) while your electronic counterpart will be able to go on. Maybe. I don’t think death by old age will be seen as inevitable in the near future. Developments in anti-aging research show great promise in either stopping cell aging, or actually reversing the effects. The issues with continuing, as a biological form is one of limited evolutionary speedup, i.e. ability to increase intelligence rapidly, of fragility of the human form compared to a mechanical format, and of dependence of an Earthlike environment, e.g. gravity, oxygen, food. I simply see the non-bio solution having greater flexibility and advantages over the bio form.

Wet1

So if I gather this right what Plato is saying is that some one else will benefit from your download while you never actually get what it was that you were after. Or several some ones. Given that might it be possile that those someones would like to keep the original program around incase of errors in the program? Not that it would do them anymore good than you. And what would they do to ensure the original remained unchanged? Put you in cryo-storage?Actually I’m not sure what you mean, I don’t think you have quite grasped the proposal. You seem to be implying that the download might not succeed, and that someone else might benefit. Sorry you’ve lost me.

And if the original is destroyed after the copy is made, (breaking the mold) that certainly doesn't help for what you came after. Anymore than the end result. Could you be copied without your knowledge and the copy downloaded? What a scam. Move in and claim everything you own. Take your life savings. Murder you and become you complete with all knowledge except for the time it takes from download to move in.

Sounds like a bad sci-fi movie. I told you I wasn't ready for this! Nope I don’t understand what you mean here. What do you mean by original? And I don’t think you are going to leave your brain image hanging around for public access like MP3 files at Napster. I suspect that once the upload is completed and you have taken a secure backup then you will use every security means available to protect your personal identity and personal brain image. After all this is your gateway to effective immortality, and one of the main reasons you would have elected to be uploaded.

Hope that helps
Cris

Somewhere I remember something about ganglia and how they are scattered through the body and control/moderate certain area functions. Somewhat like a conductor leading an ochestra, only in this case the conductor is the brain.

So here's the confusing part: how much of 'self' is located in the brain?

I find the Western dichotomy 'mind/body' quite confusing and impossible to comprehend.

Oh, I misunderstood your interpretation of this technology. You're wanting to create a technological copy of yourself and then (or during the process) kill the biological unit. The question still comes to mind, how do you know it will be you in the machine? You can construct a copy of your brain and transfer the memories and simulate chemical interations and electrical activity, but at what point will your mind leave your biological body and enter the mechanical one? And if you create backups, will the real you be in each of those, too? I do not understand the advantages of killing yourself so that another you can live. You might not even know if the transfer was a success because you'll be dead... or at least that's my view as of right now. Feel free to enlighten me. ;-)

BrainDrain,

You can construct a copy of your brain and transfer the memories and simulate chemical interations and electrical activity, but at what point will your mind leave your biological body and enter the mechanical one? Your brain is your mind. What evidence do you have that it might be something else?

I do not understand the advantages of killing yourself so that another you can live.

Because current bio forms are subject to short life spans, most indications are that you will die, if not from old age, then from accidents or murder. Your human form is very fragile and can only survive in a special gaseous environment and within a very narrow temperature range. It also will not be able survive on other planets without porting colossal artificial Earthlike environments. It is also subject to bacterial and viral attacks, which cause suffering, pain and death. The objective of an upload is to avoid death. I.e. to survive is the ultimate objective of evolution; mind uploading is a giant leap forward in both survival and abilities to survive in otherwise hostile environments.

You might not even know if the transfer was a success because you'll be dead... or at least that's my view as of right now. I strongly suspect that the process will have been tested many times before you or I are uploaded, and there will be an enormous number of checks to ensure that the upload works correctly. There will undoubtedly be many tests on lower life forms before human volunteers are used. I’m sure there will be many evaluations that check that the uploaded mind ‘feels’ the same as the original organic mind.

So do you now feel more enlightened? ;)

Cris

Originally posted by Cris
BrainDrain,

Your brain is your mind. What evidence do you have that it might be something else?

I do believe that the conciousness or "mind" resides somewhere in the brain, but how can you be sure that, after the operation, you will "wake up" in the new machine? If TWO of these exact same brain copies exist, which one will you inhabit? You can not be in both at the same time. At some point, there has to just be a copy of you, and not you yourself. I'm not sure that I'm communicating my thoughts effectively enough, and I'm unsure of how to explain.

Ok, let me try an example. Let's say I could undergo this process today. Let us also assume that the process of uploading did not destroy the original brain (by slicing or any other method). When my brain patterns are uploaded into the machine, do they cease to be in the organic brain? And if the organic brain continues to function as it did previously, wouldn't my conciousness still be there, instead of in the artificial brain? It seems that there would then be two "me"s... and that, even though the mechanical version will be conscious, live indefinitely, and would be me for all intents and purposes, I, myself, will still die.

And though I am glad the human race would continue to benefit from my keen intellect , it would be of little importance to this me, as this me would be dead.

I strongly suspect that the process will have been tested many times before you or I are uploaded, and there will be an enormous number of checks to ensure that the upload works correctly. There will undoubtedly be many tests on lower life forms before human volunteers are used. I’m sure there will be many evaluations that check that the uploaded mind ‘feels’ the same as the original organic mind.

Even if the process is tested, we'll never know if anyone ever actually survived the process because how would we know if the person actually "woke up" in the artificial construct or was simply copied and terminated?


So do you now feel more enlightened? ;)

Actually, no, sir. To quote Alice, I'm "curiouser and curiouser." ;-)

BrainDrain,

Ok great stuff.

I think you are assuming that there can only be ONE of you and that somehow you will always be unique. I.e. there is something within you that says this is you and you alone and that this thing will be you wherever you are. This is more like the religious concept of a soul or spirit, and I’m not sure if you are that way inclined, or believe such a thing. But from the perspective of mind uploading research there is no such thing as a soul. To be more precise mind uploading supports the philosophy of Materialism (note upper case M). Do not confuse this with greed or possessiveness. Materialism states that everything is material, and there are no supernatural components. Compare this with the philosophy of Dualism, where a person is considered to comprise of two parts, one is the physical body and the other is the spirit or soul. Dualism is a typical religious belief.

Within the mind uploading paradigm the brain is the mind and the consciousness. In this sense if one is able to accurately duplicate the neural and chemical messaging mechanisms that comprise the organic brain, into an alternative substrate, e.g. a silicon based computer, then the mind and/or consciousness (choose whichever term you prefer) has also been duplicated. Note that I say ‘duplicate’ and not ‘transfer’. At the instant the upload has completed and assuming the original organic brain is still functioning then YOU will exist in two places at the same time.

Perhaps it might be easier if you think of your current self as simply an organic machine. And like any machine we are proposing that we make an identical duplicate. There would now exist two identical equally capable machines in every respect. There would now be two of you.

Now you (both of you) have a choice. Do you want both to survive or should one die? This is really a decision that should be made before an upload process. This whole issue raises some unique philosophical, and ethical questions.

From a personal perspective I do not want to survive as a biological form but want to evolve into something superior. I would not want my biological form to survive the upload process. A lethal injection by my bio self would be the most suitable solution, the alternative would be to ask my non-bio self to kill my bio version but that would mean that I begin my new life as the murderer of myself – neat conundrum huh?

So, Alice, are you less confused now? :)

Cris

I can understand all of this, and no, I'm not religious. But I do not wish to die... that's the thing. As an atheist, I would rather not experience nothingness... (but that's a WHOLE other post. haha) Rather than having a copy of me for everyone else to enjoy when I'm gone, I want to live ... myself. I guess the more viable alternative for me would be implants (brain, not breast, hehe). Perhaps memory chips and other upgrades could be applied to my existing brain so that I may continue to exist, but in a "better" form. Perhaps a completely mechanical body with my brain. I know, this alternative does not offer immortality, since my brain tissue would eventually degrade, but I also would not have to die so that my copy can represent me.

I love this place, by the way! Finally, a community of intellectuals with which I can discuss the future of the human race. =)

hey all
criss- what about perception...is it not a defining point of self and therefore of the enviroment to be percieved and thus all different time zones/replicas/robotic life support systems/electro bio chemical temp storage units....blah blah on and on-
be of a specific nature of perception?
thus one major defining difference of self and "other"......
please continue your thoughts on the topic.

groove on all

If you like then stay around a while. It's really a great place with some fantastic people here. This community is really a cool place and the exposure you get to ideas is simply awesome!

I had said in an earlier post that I simply wasn’t ready. I had meant ready for the acceptance of such to be possible and perhaps a reality. Those words were truer than I realized at the time. This is not a choice I would make unless I was on the death bed and didn’t have long (picture to mind is hanging by fingernails over the cliff side with 200-300 foot drop and fingers slipping with impending realization of mortality and doom).

And here’s Chris who would embrace such with open arms, amazing. The heights of the human spirit. One who would self-sacrifice himself so that another would live? It would not be Chris, the biologic entity, which would survive. The Chris who now knows life and everyday would cease to exist. And here lies the root of the problem. I do not think that many would embrace such willingly and readily. For if you can’t take it with you then ain’t much sense in going.

Now if these newly made machines with newfound awareness were shipped off to some planet or moon for development with a one way trip would that not solve the necessity for the original to perish? You see, I really have a problem with this concept that the master copy has to go. And I can foresee that there would be the Cain/Able dilemma should one not perish. This sounds like a can of worms better left unopened, much the same as human cloning.

I am sure that the process would have to be much tested and scrutinized before releasing this on the general public. I don’t believe that Joe Blow would even consider such as anything worth checking into. (If it meant his death on the spot of compeletion). I mean, would you the average reader consider such unless you were looking for a suicide method?

Something would walk away, to all intents and purposes you, but it wouldn't be you if you are dead!

Originally written by Wet1
Something would walk away, to all intents and purposes you, but it wouldn't be you if you are dead!


Right! This is the part that has been making me wary of the whole process. If one's conciousness could be transferred rather than just copied into a machine, I could see the feasibility. But dying so that a mechanical version of you can live on forever? No thank you, I'll pass. ;-)

once put it to me...

Damn!!!!!!!!! wet1 you read it before I had finished proof-reading it.

You're to fast for me BrainDrain! But I'm glad you responded.

Wouldn't the downloading (uploading?) of 'self' amount to a 'snapshot' of what you were at the moment of transfer?

And what sensory inputs, what awareness would your electronic environment provide for your electronic self to experience?

No thank you. I don't relish the thought of possibly being placed in a sort of eternal limbo.

Oh, I quite agree. I had poked a little at it earlier in the thread. I too, seem not to relish this idea in it's present concept.

It's not that I believe that such will never come. Rather that it is hard to grasp and accept. Maybe I'm just not flexiable enough to make the jump. I suspect that there would many another who would have the same problem. At it's conception there would probably a cult of such as you and I who would not embrace it.

Chris had touched around the idea of the snapshot in his statements. He also made mention of the experience factor changing the original much the same as if happened to you or I. And that change in experience from the original would eventally add up to someone else with differing views depending on how far away from the original snapshot.

And the electronic sensory input is another problem already hit on. Who says that it is compatable with what the mind now precieves as reality?

BD,

But I do not wish to die... that's the thing. As an atheist, I would rather not experience nothingness... (but that's a WHOLE other post. haha) Rather than having a copy of me for everyone else to enjoy when I'm gone, I want to live ... myself. Perhaps I am missing something here, or I am just being dense, but I’m having trouble understanding your perspective. There is also the possibility that I have had several years to consider these issues and no longer have any problems with the concepts. Perhaps you just need longer to consider. The concept is fairly radical.

You will not die. If the upload goes smoothly, and I suspect that there will be adequate psychiatrists around to ensure you awaken in a natural and pleasant manner, then all you should experience is an awareness of your existence, with probably a sharper and faster grasp of your surroundings and memories of the recent upload decisions. Probably the best decision was to have your biological body anaesthetized before the upload process. It still belongs to you but it is no longer aware of the world. Laws or ethical guidelines governing new identities and appropriate disposal of unwanted biological shells will need to be created. But as an upload you will be very much alive and probably with a significant increase in intelligence. You may have even elected for enhanced senses in your new non-bio shell.

So what have you become? Well if you were homosapien then we can say that an upload is a robosapien. Or in other words you will have evolved into an advanced life form, but you will still be YOU.

And don’t think of robots as being mindless clumsy automatons. Honda revealed recently its new humanoid robot. It can walk very smoothly, negotiate stairs and obstacles, and can turn at angles and can move quite gracefully. This was the result of 20 years of research. And you should be aware of the geometric rate of technological progress, and realize that in another 20 years such a robot may well be outwardly indistinguishable from a biological human.

The KQED PBS channel here in Silicon Valley showed an excellent documentary late last week titled ‘Beyond Human’ and told the story of the robot and gave glimpses of the research into bio-mechanical augmentation that is available and soon to be available and then gave a final glimpse of the merger between man and machine. I do not know whether uploading as I have visualized and portrayed it in this forum will occur in this fashion, perhaps it will be a gradual process as you imply, but it does seem very clear to me that the path has already been chosen and that we are very likely to evolve into more advanced life forms by means of advanced technology, and I strongly suspect much sooner than anyone realizes.

We all want to live if we are truly honest with ourselves. The creation of religious concepts and mythologies demonstrates this very well. Faced with the past inevitability of death we created cushions for ourselves and convinced ourselves that an afterlife awaits us when we die. But now we are on the verge of being able to solve the death problem in a very real manner.

Hope this helps a little more.

Cris

Nobody wants to die. However, that fate is arguably and demonstrably inevitable.

If you are an atheist, you know that the conscious entity of "you" existing currently will simply blink out of existence upon death. Thus your entire life as a sentient lifeform can be summed up as nothing, followed by a brief period of complex information processing, followed by nothing. Zooming out from the petty details and minutiae of human lives, on geological time scales it really begins to matter not whether you managed to live an extra year or two. In the final analysis you only continue to exist inasmuch as the impact you managed to make on the world around you -- i.e. you "exist" through those changes in the flow of universal information that originated with you and outlasted you. However, zooming out even farther your life altogether ceases to have any meaning or point whatsoever, since the farther the universe progresses from the instant at which you last perceived it, the less of your impact on it will be preserved against the noise of time. Your ever-decaying "signal" will eventually be completely drowned in this "noise", and will vanish forever below the threshold of significance.

In light of such large-scale and long-term considerations, then, the argument of "I want to keep on living as a degenerating cell colony for a couple more years" looses meaning. An "upload" of the information that is your mind at any particular instant into an easily repairable, fault-tolerant container upstages your early demise somewhat.

There are actually several possible scenarios I can imagine for an upload. One is that the person is uploaded while still alive. Another is a post-mortem upload. A third would be a blend of the two, as I shall explain.

First, let's consider what might be called an ex vivo upload -- you are uploaded while still alive. Of course the subjective perception of "you" will remain within the cell-based encoding after the upload (assuming the body is not destroyed by the process.) However that very same, identical "you" will also spring into existence within the upload shell. Informationally, the two of you will be exact replicas of each other at the instant when the upload is completed, and both of "you" will feel equally genuine and whole. At that point there is no reason for the biological copy to die, it can continue to live out its life normally and eventually perish as it was destined to. This much it would have done even if there weren't any upload. However, an upload compensates for the loss inherent in death, by ensuring that the precious information comprising the mind that you accumulated over your lifetime does not just dissolve into nothingness. Naturally, the later in life the upload occurs, the more of your life experiences and evolution of personality will end up outliving your biological body.

In the second case (which might be called ex necro), you either did not live to see the age of uploading unfold, or your death was so sudden that an upload could not occur in time. Assuming that following death your brain is well-preserved, it should be possible to copy your dead brain into an upload shell and, with minor alterations to compensate for any necrosis, you would be jump-started and in effect will wake up in your new body. This comes much closer to the "transfer" that many could find much more preferable to "copying" -- but only superficially since the end-result is still essentially the same: the uploaded information survives while the biolobical hard-copy of the information disintegrates. The difference is that the upload will contain the entirety of your life experiences, even including the actual memory of your biological death. Thus, such an upload might be thought more "complete" and thus be more satisfying in yet another way.

However, the ex necro approach has a downside: if it should be that you live out your life naturally and end up dying of old age, then it will be true enough that in the course of your aging you forgot (lost) a great deal of the information from your past life experiences. So, both methods suffer from fractional information recovery. I should note that the ex necro method may be technologically easier to implement, since the ex vivo method requires a nondestructive brain scan, thereby imposing additional constraints on the technology.

Perhaps an optimal arrangement will be a combination of the two methods. In other words, you undergo an upload at a young age, as a child -- and then continue to upload periodically (say every year) until you die. Following your death, a final ex necro upload is made. At this point, all of your uploaded "snapshots" are synchronized and reconciled against each other, in essense merging all of your memories, personality traits, and life experiences into a seamless tapestry. Such post-processing will require detailed understanding of the information encoded in the brain's structure, and will require massive computational power. The end result will not exactly be "you" at any instant in your past life -- but rather a blend of "you" through your entire lifespan. The sentient entity that emerges will have vividly all of your memories from childhood to death, it will embody all of your naivete and all of your wisdom, all of your energy and all of your apathy, all of your knowledge, all of your skills, all of your habits good and bad, all at the same time. It will be a "rebirth" of sorts, but into what you might call a "higher" awareness of yourself -- an awareness more exquisite than was ever experienced by your biological predecessor.

Returning back to the original theme of meaning in life, even a marvellous rebirth through uploading does not necessarily in itself make much of a difference. Eventually, for all we know, the universe might die a frigid thermodynamic death, and all of the intelligence that survives until then would be forced to perish together with this ultimate shell. On the other hand, an upload vastly expands the time scale over which the individual sentience persists. This leaves open a door to various remote possibilities mostly beyond the wildest imaginings of the modern day. For example, at some point in the future (however remote) a way might be discovered for information originating in this universe to transcend it -- resulting essentially in another kind of upload, but this time it would be an information transfer that spans boundaries between realities in addition to physical encodings. At any rate, externalizing the self into a flexible, extensible, upgradeable and replaceable architecture enables a gigantic leap, a monumental dislocation in the ponderous evolution of intelligence. The uploads will no longer be limited by the physiological constraints of a particular technological implementation; their perceptive and cognitive capabilities will progress at an ever-increasing speed of thought. They will see into the corners of the universe that a mundane human mind is incapable of even approaching due to sheer complexity overload. And so, they will be overwhelmingly better poised for conceiving and taking the next step -- whatever it may be.

As it happens, I tend to see the biological life as only a precursor, not an end result, in the flow of information. We are here to serve as a bootstrap mechanism for the next stage; we are the here and now from which the future takes form.

Chris,
That is exactly it. I am indeed having problems laying my hand upon this concept. I see the words, read them, but on the way to comprehending them something disconnects and hangs up.

Please expand upon this download/upload idea. Because right now it just doesn't add up. I understand that there are benefits to the end result but I'm very used to seeing and experiencing the world as I now do. This is so foreign to my reality that it just doesn't connect.

Chagur,

Wouldn't the downloading (uploading?) of 'self' amount to a 'snapshot' of what you were at the moment of transfer?A note on terminology: Downloading is usually the transfer of some information from something large to something smaller. Typically you would download software from a major server to your PC, for example.

Uploading is clearly the opposite of downloading, but for this forum the assumption is that your brain patterns are being transferred into something larger and more powerful. This is one of the attractions of being uploaded – more memory and faster processing power (higher intelligence).

At any instant in time you are a snapshot. But the upload scanning process will be detecting primarily neural connections and the state of chemical messages, hormones, synapses etc. It is these connections and chemical states that form everything about you in terms of memories, emotions, personality etc. Once this data has been uploaded and you have been activated then the software of the new substrate will continue from the moment that the scanning process had started. It would be as if a freeze frame had occurred in your life, and the play button pressed again.

And what sensory inputs, what awareness would your electronic environment provide for your electronic self to experience? You would be able to exist in the real world and the sensory information would come from electronic sensors equal if not more powerful than current biological sensors. We already have advanced vision systems but at present they lack the intelligence to interpret the images, they have no brain behind them, an uploaded brain will provide all the interpretive power needed, similarly with all the other electronic sensor devices.

Cris

Boris,

Many thanks. Nice post.

I had not considerd the idea of taking uploaded images throuhgout a lifetime and attempting to merge them. Intriguing concept. Thankyou for taking me to a higher level of consideration.

Cris

One thing I have against the idea that you undergo an upload while still alive and in such a manner that it destroys your brain: when something goes wrong with the process, for whatever reason, you are dead.

Having this happen after you died is not as big of an issue, though still a worry.

On the other hand, a non-destructive upload makes a copy of you without destroying the biological form, and then you face issues with murder/suicide. I was pondering this when the idea hit me: why not have the cake and eat it too? The upload doesn't need to be activated immediately after the procedure is complete; indeed it can serve merely as a snapshot of your current state, to be integrated with other snapshots later when you die of natural causes. Plus, you get the added bonus of having had a complete human life from start to end, which might make your transition easier and also perhaps your subsequent existence richer.

Just a thought...

P.S. this might also be a far more acceptable route for many people; somehow it's more "natural" (hard to believe but I'm at a loss for words trying to express my actual sentiment toward it, so "natural" would just have to do...)

Wet1,

Quick note on names – I’m Cris not Chris. Cris is actually my real name. However, I am used to people inserting the H, so no big deal.

As for further explanations: Take a look at the forum introduction topic and read my original post. There are some links there that lead you to actual research and some of the original ideas of mind uploading.

If that doesn’t help, then let me know and I’ll have another go.

Have fun, and thanks for the interest.
Cris

Boris,

I have several issues with continuing with a ‘natural’ biological existence after an upload snapshot.

1. Bio research may in fact solve the issues of the aging process giving the bio form potentially limitless life spans. This in itself would be an interesting development. But it would prevent us moving forward with rapid advances in intelligence.
2. There is the issue that AI machines will outpace the bio-humans. We need to transfer to uploaded states quickly so we can compete with AI.
3. Having recently seen my father die after years of debilitation illnesses does not sit well with allowing my bio version suffer a similar fate.
4. I really do see the robo-shell form having many advantages over the bio version. I would hate to have to stay as a bio-form while my advanced uploaded replica waits for me to die.

Dying from natural causes is no fun, and I would spare myself the pains and suffering expected from a natural bio life if I possibly can.

Cris

So you are assuming that, when you "upload" your mind to the machine, before the upload you will be seeing the world through your organic eyes, and afterwards, you will be inside the machine, seeing through mechanical sensors. In other words, the process is more of a transferrence of consciousness and not merely a copying. The conceptual problem I am having is a matter of perception. Will you perceive yourself to be in your human body at one point, and suddenly inside the machine? Or will your perceptions end at the moment of upload, and a new being be created that is exactly like you and processes information as you would have because it has an identical brain? I am so tired I can barely form coherent sentences now, but I must post this before bed or else I'll have nightmares of little mechanical brains dancing around in my head. (There is some irony somewhere in that statement.) This is an intriguing topic... I trust the debate will still be raging when I get home tomorrow afternoon. Thanks for attempting to answer me. =) G'night.

I didn't get a chance to read all of the above posts so forgive me if this has already been discussed.

Cris,

Ok I'm with BD on this one, the upload would not be you it would be a copy.

IF after the upload was completed BOTH the artificial and bio brains could share their consciousness i.e. all thoughts happen simultaneously on both brains then fine the mind upload would not result in the death of the original consciousness....Infact you'd have to be aware of yourself as both bio and artifical... living your life simultaneosly as computer and man. So if the redundant bio you died you'd still be OK.

However if after the upload both brains only shared memories and characteristics then the artifical brain is a new "identity" a new life if you like...not you just something that is very closley BASED on you. So after your death you would not all of a sudden wake up as a computer and say"wooh that death thing is overated" and just continue on...you'd be dead a new life would pick up where you left off...so what you have done is not reached imortality but passed on your knowledge to a knew being....and really when you look at it you can do that today, just have a child and teach it well.


I'm putting my eggs in the nanotech, fix your bio body basket...that is a more comfortable way to cheat death...well for me anyway. Mind uploads would be a neat way of creating a super intelligent human based mind....

Cris,

Ah you sound like a pessimist, seeing problems before they even exist. Let’s say there are likely to be some challenges. But really the human brain is a simple organ, there are no moving parts, and the nature of the neuron and its connections (the basic building block) is repeated a large number of times. Once the fundamentals are understood then most of the problems will be solved.


Forgive me if a little smile comes to my face if I see you talking about very simple systems.
Let me point you for example to an other very simple system like a pendulum, would it surprise you if I told you that there is exists no exact solution to its equation of motion ?
There is this strange thing involved called non linearity : tiny changes in the begin variables result in big changes in the end results.
What makes you thing that the components of the brain will be immune to this feature ?

My personal thoughts about organisms is that they rely very much on this phenomenon cause it gives them the ability to be flexible and respond to changes in their environment in order to survive. Computers as they exist today do not make use of this, they are subject to it but it is surpressed for it is looked upon as noise, which could result to error.
In a way this is normal since we don't want to have a different result each time we do the same kind of procedure on it. We want reproducable and reliable behaviour from our computer. A mind however needs a very different kind of carrier and this makes me put some question marks behind the feasability to make a truthfull and exact copy of our hardware into a different carrier.
We will need to make an infinitly exact copy of a neuron in order to overcome the non linearity phenomenon, however this is forbidden by quantum mechanics because of the uncertainty principle. So your copy will always be very similar but never exactly the same, very much like clones have the same genetic information but may still become very different individuals.
So I'm sorry to say that a transition from biological to mechanical for the same individual will be an illusion.
You will wake up and find yourself still in your body while a similar kind of individual will be made and will be in effect an Artificial Intelligence. Talking about a rough wake up call... ;)

hey all
chagur- i syperthise with your difficulty in the western mind>
i am a westerner :D
just think of the ego intraverting to be retrospective of all life.
unlike the eastern bounce/reflection off all life(other animals)
this i see to be one of the major diffs! :D
i hope i havnt offended anyone?

i tend to agree with the idea of plato in regard to the concept.
though i am starting to study concepts of bi location>this i believe cannot be interpreted other than soul conceusness.
one thought that i see as startlingly self evident is that scientists
have yet to design a computer that can compete with a human on a psychological level!
u cant count chess because that is maths!
i personaly cant image the magnatude of pain involved in living
in the knoledge that i cannot ever again lay naked with a girlfriend
lightly tracing my hand over her soft skin,firing my senses into overload while we stare into eachothers eyesmerging our thoughts as one conseusness!(to know love and trust...sighhh...)
then to be thinking that while in a mechanical robot shell????????
NO THANKS !

groove on all :)

It's really kind of neat to wake up, do the usual maintenance (toilet, breakfast, etc.) and then pick-up on an interesting thread.

First off, I'm going to have to get a bitch off: Cris, thank you for the enlightenment re. up/down loads but did it occur to you that I may just have been sarcastic rather than unknowledgeable? I meant what I said and even emphasized it with "(uploading?)". I apogize for offending your sensibilities by suggesting that the wetware might be far more elegant than the hardware you seem to hold in such high regard.

Next, a thanks Ripleofdeath: Though three score and seven, I too would miss greatly the physical contact with all of its sensory inputs, some of which we're only now becoming aware of.

And finally, Boras: The sequential loading (I won't designate direction for fear of again offending) might not be such a good idea and could conceivably result in madness. Have you ever had the experience of remenissing with someone you've known for a long time and suddenly realize that the supposedly same experience .... wasn't? I wonder what it would be like to reexperience my life (the last loading) without the editing of memory that is part of aging.

Great discussion, really enjoying.

Originally posted by ripleofdeath
i personaly cant image the magnatude of pain involved in living
in the knoledge that i cannot ever again lay naked with a girlfriend
lightly tracing my hand over her soft skin,firing my senses into overload while we stare into eachothers eyesmerging our thoughts as one conseusness!(to know love and trust...sighhh...)
then to be thinking that while in a mechanical robot shell????????
NO THANKS !

Putting aside the idea of conciousness transfer vs. copying, let us assume for a moment that you do, indeed, wake up from this operation inside an electronic body. This opens up many possibilities that are inconceiveable in our present form. For instance, imagine that you find a person that you truly love, that also happens to have a robotic shell. It might be possible to link your minds ... to truly become one with another, whether during sexual relations or otherwise. For the first time in human history, two people could belong to eachother mind, body, and "soul" (just to use a familiar but inaccurate phrase).

And what if the two of you wanted to reproduce? Perhaps a copy of both of your original DNA patterns would be stored somewhere within your new body, and the combination of these two could be used to create your offspring, but inside an electronic body. The development of their electronic brains could follow the path that your combined genetics would have made for it, but only more efficiently and with increased abilities. Imagine a child whose learning ability while growing up is that of a supercomputer. This child would have the distinct advantage of increased processing power from the moment of "birth". An interesting thought.

And I could foresee a large business in "thrill-ride" uploading. Imagine a jet plane built to hold a human mind. It could be rented out to people, who could upload their mind into the plane and fly as no other human has ever been able to. Or a long-distance upload into the computer system of a spacecraft... many, many possibilities with this technology. But I am anxious to see what everyone else has to say, so I'll stop for now! ;-)

BD,

Awright now you're beginning to see some of the 'opportunities' of this concept.

Now consider amplified pleasure sensors - sex like you've never imagined before.

How about plugging yourself into a virtual reality network. A real Matrix like environment.

In fact some might consider living in a permanent VR environment rather than having robotic shells.

Wireless communications could be built in as part of your enhencements. Imagine transmitting complex brain powered images instantly from person to person. Truly effective telepathy.

How about teleportation - if you are not too concerned about residing in different shells from time to time then travel becomes kinda neat. Just have your digitized brain pattern transmitted to the destination and uploaded into an appropriate shell.

I'll stop there as this might be causing you an overload. :D

Cris

Well, I always understood the benefits of mind uploading, but I did not understand your take on it. From what I read in your posts, I thought you were willing to die so that a COPY of you would live on in an electronic form. I see I still haven't gotten my point across to you... does anyone else here see what I mean? Could you please help me explain? haha

I have been reading some articles on mind uploading today, and I have learned a lot, but the idea of a non-destructive brain upload is puzzling in that, if your biological brain is still functioning, would not your sense of self still be contained there? Without a link between the two devices (brain and robobrain), how could you perceive yourself to be in two places at once? Some cosmic link? One would have to be you, and the other a great copy of you.

One upload process that I think would possibly allow a transition of your mind from biological to artificial is the nanotech solution. Billions of nanites are injected into your brain, one for each neuron, and they record the actions of that neuron, and its links in the brain, until they can mimic them exactly. At that point, they kil the neuron and replace them. I think this gradual process would allow the biological brain to become an artificial brain.

But if I have not yet explained my position, I believe I shall go ahead and plug my existing organic brain into a power outlet because it can not get my ideas across anyways. :-p

BD,

the idea of a non-destructive brain upload is puzzling in that, if your biological brain is still functioning, would not your sense of self still be contained there?

‘Sense of self’ is only a thought or emotion combination that can be mapped to specific neural pathways. If that map has been accurately replicated somewhere else, then that ‘sense of self’ thought or emotion will then exist in two places.

Without a link between the two devices (brain and robobrain), how could you perceive yourself to be in two places at once? Some cosmic link? One would have to be you, and the other a great copy of you.

After the upload there is no longer a single individual but two distinct individuals with the same brain patterns. The internal architectures of the two individuals are radically different but the external functioning is identical. It would no longer be valid to talk of one of these individuals as being you because they are both you, and there is no need for any form of link between the two individuals as they are able to function independently. Neither would it be valid to talk of one as being a copy as if that implied something inferior. It would be more accurate to consider the biological version as the foundation for the creation of a new individual.

So either that helps to explain why your reasoning is in error or it reinforces my inability to understand what you are saying.

Have fun
Cris

You Wrote:

"Sense of self’ is only a thought or emotion combination that can
be mapped to specific neural pathways. If that map has been accurately replicated somewhere else, then that ‘sense of self’ thought or emotion will then exist in two places. "

I agree, you sense of self will be with your bio brain and an exact copy of your sense of self will be in the "robobrain".

So to a third party initally they would not be able to tell the difference.

If you could explain something for me though, do you believe that if this was achieved (i.e. a complete and perfect download) and lets say your bio body was killed in the process, do you believe that you would wake up in your new container, or would you die and the copy you left behind would continue.

A different way of saying the same thing (I hope):
Lets say the technology is available and you are about to have it done to you. Tell me what you agree with:

a) you enter the scanner where your brain is analysed and mapped, you die in the process, the mind upload is completed someone flicks the on switch and you wake in your new container....

b)you enter the scanner your brain is analysed you die in the process, someone flicks the on switch and you stay dead but a NEW life form which is entirley based on your past existance takes over.

I understand the difference is subtle and that the robobrain would probably not be aware that it is a new life form it would completely believe that it is still you other people would not be able to tell they are interacting with a copy of you HOWEVER YOU are still dead (and if there's an afterlife) only you are aware that a copy was created and infact it isn't you anymore.


Ahh words fail to describe what I'm trying to say. Quick scan my brain (it will only take a second :) and read what I'm trying to say. :D

now there's a practical solution.

I just had another thought (they are rare so humour me) this technology would be great for jailing/punishment of criminals...upload to a terminal isolate it and let them spend their sentence in a Microsoft based PC, and then blue screen them if their naughty...genral exception!!!! take that criminals.

Originally posted by Rambler
Tell me what you agree with:

a) you enter the scanner where your brain is analysed and mapped, you die in the process, the mind upload is completed someone flicks the on switch and you wake in your new container....

b)you enter the scanner your brain is analysed you die in the process, someone flicks the on switch and you stay dead but a NEW life form which is entirley based on your past existance takes over.

I understand the difference is subtle and that the robobrain would probably not be aware that it is a new life form it would completely believe that it is still you other people would not be able to tell they are interacting with a copy of you HOWEVER YOU are still dead (and if there's an afterlife) only you are aware that a copy was created and infact it isn't you anymore.

EXACTLY. Thank you. I do not feel so misunderstood any more! haha The process that Cris described was one in which his brain was sliced up as it was scanned, or even if not, he said his bio-self should be euthanized. I can not imagine killing myself so that another me could take over (even if it was intellectually superior).

But does anyone agree with the nanite alternative? I think the gradual replacement, neuron by neuron, would allow a transition rather than an abrupt end of biological life and the beginning of a seperate but identical being.

hey all :)
cris - ponder this thought!
why would 2 identical twins crave different things?
i.e. one chocolate one icecream?
expand that concept to self actualisation.
/
reproduction - if 2 robo brains reproduced they would make them selfs obsalete. there would be no need to continue the wasted resources to house 2 inferior copies which have been superceeded.-and would not both now maintain the same conseusness?
/
bi-location of identical brain wave generation and reception-
imagine trying to walk through the town if you had 2 sets of eyes
one producing images of a different place as you looked at another...?
what would be left out? the buss that was about to flatten you?
/
moral question of a REALITY CHECK- are the richest people in the world the nicest people who should sporn our race exclusively?
if your answer to this is yes..i suggest you dont ever ask me for help because i cant $afford to give it for free and the price for you would be everything you own! :)

groove on all:) preaching boy is 'off to the take-away' :D

Ripple,

Your questions seemed the easiest and I am short of time so I’m answering these first. And also I don’t think I have ever responded to you before.

why would 2 identical twins crave different things?
i.e. one chocolate one icecream? Because they are not identical in every respect. They may appear identical externally and they may have identical DNA, but they would have been leading independent lives and acquiring different experiences. That would have started to occur from the moment they were born. This means that their brains would have developed independently and different brains patterns would have formed.

reproduction - if 2 robo brains reproduced they would make them selfs obsalete. there would be no need to continue the wasted resources to house 2 inferior copies which have been superceeded.-and would not both now maintain the same conseusness? Why would uploads want to reproduce in the first place? If you had a limitless life span you would have no need to reproduce. Reproduction is an evolutionary technique and instinct used to ensure the survival of the species. With effective immortality the paradigm will shift away from survival of the species to survival of the individual. Producing offspring would be a waste of resources and an incredible cost. Even for regular bio humans having children is an incredible cost.

moral question of a REALITY CHECK- are the richest people in the world the nicest people who should sporn our race exclusively? No definitely not. Consider movie stars for example, these are among the richest people in the world, and many of them aren’t too bright, they just look pretty. Many other rich people inherited their wealth and have never offered any useful contribution to humanity since. The only rich people I might respect are those that rose from poor backgrounds and struggled hard throughout their lives to make it to the top. And the people I respect the least are those that start poor and never make an effort to improve themselves.

And now I must return to work.
Cris

hey cris
cheers while reading your response to reproduction i thought how stupid the question was in that regard :?
duuuuuhhhhhhhh
i feel that i need to step to another level on this topic in light of your comment(which i understand but not nes agree with completely)
do you believe in mind control?
or - control of the masses through poverty?
nano tech would circumvent the cost issue i think????????maybe?
i thought that science had already IDENTIFIED the part of the brain that tells all the rest of the body to repair and reproduce its self!?!
any clues?

groove on all

Originally posted by Cris
Why would uploads want to reproduce in the first place? If you had a limitless life span you would have no need to reproduce. Reproduction is an evolutionary technique and instinct used to ensure the survival of the species. With effective immortality the paradigm will shift away from survival of the species to survival of the individual. Producing offspring would be a waste of resources and an incredible cost. Even for regular bio humans having children is an incredible cost.

If it is such an incredible cost, why do people decide to do it now? Sure, they might have a deep psychological need to propogate the species, but it is also one of the most rewarding aspects of life. Creating another life together with a person you love is a privelage of life, and just because you have a different kind of body, you want to take this experience away? Increased lifespan would be great, but I think humanity is getting lost in the translation. Do you have kids, Cris? If so, I hope they never read about the waste of resources and incredible cost they are. ;-p

BD,

Originally posted by BrainDrain


If it is such an incredible cost, why do people decide to do it now? Sure, they might have a deep psychological need to propogate the species, but it is also one of the most rewarding aspects of life. Creating another life together with a person you love is a privelage of life, and just because you have a different kind of body, you want to take this experience away? Increased lifespan would be great, but I think humanity is getting lost in the translation. Do you have kids, Cris? If so, I hope they never read about the waste of resources and incredible cost they are. ;-p

Firstly I have three teenage daughters, 14, 17, and 19. They are superb and I wouldn’t trade them for anything and I have absolutely no regrets about having children. Note that I never said or implied ‘waste’ only cost.

In some parts of the world, primarily parts of Asia, people have children because they will become additional providers and workers for the family. These families tend to be very large and/or extended. Others have children through mistakes, oops, poor family planning (too many of these unfortunately). Others have children because they are locked into a cultural cycle where it is expected to have children – i.e. peer pressure to conform. Many women have very real and powerful ‘motherly’ instincts and see the aim of their lives as the production of children. Others truly see having children as a very rewarding aspect of life, as you say, and to which I thoroughly agree.

But having had, or rather am still experiencing, that great adventure, I would not want to do it again for the foreseeable future. There are too many other things I want to do.

I think the primary reason that most people have and want children is that it is a significant and superb experience, but they also realize that they will only live so long (relatively short time) and that they will have little choice to do much else until they ‘retire’. If people discovered that they could live for say 200 years and remain fertile all that time, then I am sure most would choose to have children much later in life once their careers had matured and they were in better financial positions to support children. There is also the maturity factor when it comes to raising children. I do not believe that young people in their late teens or early twenties have sufficient life experiences to know how to raise and teach their children properly. And as a result of this we see many delinquent and poorly advised children in the world.

You say humanity is getting lost in the translation. I don’t think ‘lost’ is the right word, but the nature and characteristics of humanity are likely to undergo a massive revision if uploading becomes a reality.

So my point is that when limitless life spans become a reality then most people will seriously review their choices in life and I don’t think that having children will be a major priority as it is today.

As an aside I haven’t yet worked out what it would mean for two uploaded people to have a child. Certainly not biological, and DNA would not exist. So how would one determine the base characteristics of the new non-bio child? Clearly no upload would take place and the child robosapien would start with effectively no brain patterns which is pretty much the same as a bio-human child. But would one start with a miniature robosapien (baby sized) or would one start with a full adult sized individual who would probably not be able to walk or talk properly? But it must also be realized that when uploading becomes commonplace then the cpu power will be far ahead of the early uploads. This will result in levels of intelligence and learning speeds many orders of magnitude higher than current humans. Part of the fun of having children is watching them grow up and training them, but if they can reach PhD standards in their first year of life then where is the fun. Remember also that we will have mastered how memories operate and should be able to transfer whole experiences and images instantly from person to person. A robosapien child is unlikely to remain a child for very long, perhaps a year but probably a lot less.

So in retrospect I really don’t see much value in having children once I am uploaded. That desire will be a leftover from short-lived low intelligent biological beings. I’d much rather travel out into space and explore some of the weird planets that must be around – remember we will be able to easily survive in very hostile (to bio humans) environments.

Cris

I can see that, in this new life of ours, possibilities for advancement of the self would be great, but it is beginning to seem rather selfish. All the human beings that are alive at the time uploading becomes possible will be the only ones to ever exist afterwards? Not so much an evolution as a stagnation of the species. And not to want to bring new life into this utopia? With robotic bodies, we will be able to expand out into the universe, but the number of "humans" will always remain the same, so space will be very sparsely populated with small colonies. I, for one, hope that uploading becomes possible, but I also think that reproduction of some means needs to be taken into account and put into at least some mechanical body designs that might want to take advantage of it.

As I am new to this thread, I may be treading on paths already taken, but I couldn't help but think of this possibility.

Perhaps when we become uploaded we won't have to procreate in the sense of creating more biological offspring, but instead we could procreate randomly coded offspring. That way, while we travel the stars via an uplink to a space vehicle's terminal, we can, <i>at the same time</i>, manage to raise a virtual family, play a grueling game of tennis, and experience the thrill of hang-gliding. The ability to multitask within an uploaded environment will surely be unprecedented, yet very possible.

However, the point I may be missing may very well be the <i>act</i> of procreation. But, as Cris has said in earlier posts, this sensation can be fully duplicated (and even enhanced) in a virtual Matrix-like simulacrum.

Especially consider the possibility to be able to converse with many people, regardless of language (or species, for that matter). To borrow from Peter F. Hamilton's <i>Reality Dysfunction</i> sci-fi series, people would be able to enter into a Consensus of intellect--always sharing, always learning and always expanding.

Maybe the only way to compensate for not physically producing offspring in this state would be to collectively devise ways of producing super-beings.

Hmm. I'm not sure, though. Point out the weaknesses in this thinking, please.

thanks,

prag

There is also the maturity factor when it comes to raising children. I do not believe that young people in their late teens or early twenties have sufficient life experiences to know how to raise and teach their children properly. And as a result of this we see many delinquent and poorly advised children in the world.

Part of the fun of having children is watching them grow up and training them, but if they can reach PhD standards in their first year of life then where is the fun.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I've indicated before, I'm having a real problem with this electronic utopia and I'm getting the feeling I know why. It's turning into a techno-athiest's vision of heaven! And one who's vision is just as dissatisfied with the human condition as a grumpy priest's. Although I don't think that even a grumpy old priest would think in terms of training children (teaching, yes ... training, no).

As for having sufficient life experience to raise and teach ... as much as I hate to refer to a certain person's word, I think she was right when she used the phrase "It takes a village to raise a child" The unfortunate part is that in many cases we don't even have a neighborhood anymore.

I also have had the experience of children, two boys and a girl, and for me the greatest 'fun' was learning from them and being there when they needed me. I wonder how that would work in the electronic heaven envisioned?

i personaly am not in favour of the idea of uploads on the bassis of humans and how they act at this moment in time!
i think that to remove our selfs from bodies is to not be human!
-has anyone heard of the experiment where rats were wired to
a machine that gave them a orgasm/sexual feeling when they pushed a button?
they died of starvation!
check it out! it kinda raises a few seriouse issues re-uploading.
a child of 2 computers will be better and less impared of either one so will one seek to be unique?
another hairrasing question of the concept of what type of being you would be?

thoughts.......?

groove on all :)

To add to my earlier list of problems with this:

"We are trying to copy and not to redesign."

I see this as a major drawback to mind uploading. While the initial intent is not to redesign the person it may very easily come about. Maybe you are prone to laziness and during the upload they would make you a hard workers. A potential to mind control. This can be a very dangerous technology.
There is also a problem of safety. How susceptible is you mint to outside tampering? If you are switching bodies regularly then there has to be some mode of transfer. Whenever information is transferred there are possibilities to intercept and change. Want to rule the world, crate a virus to make everybody love you.
Then again, the technology to do many of these things biologically is on the horizon. At least this way there are ways to set up defenses.

"But why would someone want to have 10 copies of themselves? Where would they all live? Wouldn’t they all want to exist in the same home and have access to the same possessions? I think that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages and that typically this would not be a desirable state of affairs. They would all need to work to pay for the energy costs as well, would the jobs be available?"

What would Hitler do with this technology?
:confused:

While reading FA_Q2's post a thought hit me (Ouch). There is no such thing as a perfect copy. Something is always lost from the original. At what point would swapping bodies lead to personal loss? Be it personility, reasoning, or even loss of nerve connections. Would you at some point lose the ability to say lift a certain finger or move it a certain way? Or forget, or lose memories? Talk about a can of worms.

to futher down my own thought from wet1-
what about crime?
is this all hapening before or after we get rid of all crime?
how would you control the sick ohhs' ?


groove on
:)

Originally posted by wet1
There is no such thing as a perfect copy. Something is always lost from the original.
You're raining on the mind-uploading parade.

Mind-uploading is based entirely on the idea that there is such a thing as a perfect copy.
Not only that, it is further based on the the idea that the copy is indistinguishable from the original.

After mind-uploading is successful, presumably the word "copy" will be deleted from the dictionary, since its only meaning will be "original."

I hate to say it, but tony1 is right on that point. It has been hinted at before, but not as blatantly stated. You still die.....

Originally posted by FA_Q2
You still die.....
Oh yeah, there's that problem, too.

FA_Q2,

The problems we are having with the terms ‘life and death’ are because we are using them when referencing biological life. That is understandable since that is the only form we have ever known. If mind-uploading occurs then we will have to redefine what is meant by life and death in more general terms. A topic for another thread I think.

The early objective of mind-uploading will be to achieve the equivalent functions of the human brain. Will they be perfectly identical? Probably not since the substrates will be so very different. But all major aspects should be so similar that the differences would be insignificant or advantageous. The best analogy might be that of making a journey between A and B. One route might go via C and another route might go via D, but the end result is the same.

Since the target substrate algorithms will likely be based on human brain neuronic activity then we should have a good chance of achieving our goal. However, since the human brain evolved randomly then there may well be many aspects of brain function that are inefficient or redundant. We can work on those later once we have the basic template operational. At least that would be my first approach. But we may find, as we come to understand more about how the brain functions that we can make improvements as the code is developed.

Cris

It might be much easier to go a different rout than mind uploading all together. What is I replaced your body from within with a metallic type body. Nano bots could replace your parts including neuron connections with a metallic equivalent with much less moral reproductions. It would be a simple rout from there to produce an extra limb or two. You could do anything from there. All you are doing is bypassing the initial culture shock.

Originally posted by Cris
If mind-uploading occurs then we will have to redefine what is meant by life and death in more general terms.
A topic worthy of some attention.
"Life" should be replaced by "death," and "death" should be replaced by "don't bother me with details."

Probably not since the substrates will be so very different. But all major aspects should be so similar that the differences would be insignificant or advantageous.
Presumably, for the purposes of draining your bank account, only facial and vocal patterns, fingerprints, gross motor skills such as those used for signing cheques, and retinal patterns will be of any concern.

However, since the human brain evolved randomly then there may well be many aspects of brain function that are inefficient
Such as thought?

OTOH, what happens if the random evolution resulted in biological algorithms not easily duplicated in silicon?
Suppose the duplication of biological algorithms in silicon results in a two-ton brain requiring water-cooling?

Low-voltage chips to reduce heat might not help, since walking across an acrylic carpet could well result in that technological marvel, the artificial epileptic fit.

Originally posted by FA_Q2
It might be much easier to go a different rout than mind uploading all together. What is I replaced your body from within with a metallic type body. Nano bots could replace your parts including neuron connections with a metallic equivalent with much less moral reproductions.
There are some precedents for doing that.
After all, most people who lose a leg, for example, prefer to replace the leg, rather than keeping the leg and replacing everything else.

But what are "moral reproductions?"

Or, are you suggesting analyzing every single synapse in the event that it might have anything to do with moral decisions and eliminating all of the ones that look like they do?

Given the billions of synapses, that could take a while.
Especially since you would have to check, not only the individual connections, but the pattern of connections as well.
Furthermore, what happens if a synapse has something to do with moral decisions and choice of nutrients, as well?
Let's say a synaptic connection allows you to make a moral choice (good vs. bad action) and a food choice (good vs. bad food). What happens then?

sorry, typo
Moral reproductions should read moral repercussions.
That's what I get for using the spell checker and not looking over my work.

" After all, most people who lose a leg, for example, prefer to replace the leg, rather than keeping the leg and replacing everything else. "

Yes but after I replace your leg with a real one like the one you had and also add a little hydraulic help for your muscles then why not do the same to your other leg. Maybe an arm also.

" Given the billions of synapses, that could take a while. "

And given millions of nano bots to work around the clock it would be a short process. You only need each bot to look at 1000 or so neurons.

added later

" has anyone heard of the experiment where rats were wired to
a machine that gave them a orgasm/sexual feeling when they pushed a button?
they died of starvation! "

That is something I had brought up earlier. Why would we do anything at all if we could simply create complete pleasure. Heaven if you will.

Originally posted by FA_Q2
Yes but after I replace your leg with a real one like the one you had and also add a little hydraulic help for your muscles then why not do the same to your other leg. Maybe an arm also.
Riiiiiight.

And given millions of nano bots to work around the clock it would be a short process.
I guess in evolutionary terms it would be a "short" process.
You only need each bot to look at 1000 or so neurons.
Maybe you're forgetting what those bots are supposed to do?
They're not just looking at those synapses.
They're supposed to figure out what they are for, you know, that "moral repercussions" thing.
They are also supposed to figure out how to reproduce them.

As you know, the nano-Xerox machine hasn't been invented yet.
As a matter of fact, neither has the nano-synapse-analyzer.
The hydraulic nano-muscle-booster also has a little way to go before it gets invented.
Even the nanobot has a little fine tuning left to do.

By "short," I guess you mean several centuries.

Either that, or this is the science fiction forum.

" I guess in evolutionary terms it would be a "short" process. "

Yea, we are talking in weeks. Maybe a month.

" Maybe you're forgetting what those bots are supposed to do?
They're not just looking at those synapses.
They're supposed to figure out what they are for, you know, that "moral repercussions" thing.
They are also supposed to figure out how to reproduce them. "

You completely missed the point. Not reproduce any morals at all but soften the outcry against it. Mind uploading will receive a lot of critiques while nano technology wont.

" As you know, the nano-Xerox machine hasn't been invented yet.
As a matter of fact, neither has the nano-synapse-analyzer.
The hydraulic nano-muscle-booster also has a little way to go before it gets invented.
Even the nanobot has a little fine tuning left to do. "

Yes the nano bots on board systems are under development. The technology is in the future. Nano bots are not perfect but they are here. They will be used in medical treatments in the future as well.

Originally posted by FA_Q2
You completely missed the point. Not reproduce any morals at all but soften the outcry against it. Mind uploading will receive a lot of critiques while nano technology wont.
Do you actually mean "Not reproduce any morals at all?"
Or do you mean "Not eliminate all morals?"

In any case, mind uploading already receives a lot of critiques, mainly because it won't work by definition of the word "copy."

Yes the nano bots on board systems are under development. The technology is in the future. Nano bots are not perfect but they are here.
Nanomachines are here, but nanobots exist only in fiction.

There are a few issues to iron out yet, such as installing a CPU on a nanomachine, avoiding the consumption of your nanobots by white blood cells and, oh yeah, the programming of a nanobot to repair cells.

That last one might be a little work-intensive, particularly since you might not want to be the guinea pig who finds out that the nanobot is building cancer cells instead of nerve cells.
You might also not want to be the guy who finds out the nanobot is destroying cells thanks to a bug, either.

Besides, has anyone bothered to figure out how much computing power actually fits on a pinhead?

Another thing is that the general tendency is to reduce physical size and voltage levels to increase computing speed, but what happens if you build a millivolt computer that actually fits in a nanobot, and you accidentally give yourself a shock walking across a carpet?

Random behavior from millions of nanobots isn't something I'd want in my body.

As I said, nanobots are still fiction.

Still fiction? Yes, I agree that they are indeed still fiction. So were self propelled mechanical vehicles a couple of hundred years ago. But that won't always be so. Right of wrong. The first ones will probably not be computer guided but instead chemically guided. What ever chemical trigger when found will activate whatever the design concept of the nano creation is to do.

" Do you actually mean "Not reproduce any morals at all?"
Or do you mean "Not eliminate all morals?"

In any case, mind uploading already receives a lot of critiques, mainly because it won't work by definition of the word "copy." "

Dammit tony you are ignoring what I am saying. Mind uploading will be attacked by society because of the copy part. Nobody simply wants a copy of themselves running around at the expense of their own life. The thing is nano technology will not get the same uproar form society because the copy part is well hidden. A few generations that get used to the technology may find it useful to copy the brain but the word copy will not be used. Maybe improve since the nano machines will have been improving other parts of the body for years.

" There are a few issues to iron out yet, such as installing a CPU on a nanomachine, avoiding the consumption of your nanobots by white blood cells and, oh yeah, the programming of a nanobot to repair cells."

All of these are difficult but not impossible. The name of this forum tends to lead one to future possibilities. Nothing talked about here is the present.

" Besides, has anyone bothered to figure out how much computing power actually fits on a pinhead?

Another thing is that the general tendency is to reduce physical size and voltage levels to increase computing speed, but what happens if you build a millivolt computer that actually fits in a nanobot, and you accidentally give yourself a shock walking across a carpet? "

I do not believe that the CPU will actually be onboard the bot itself. Most likely in a small computer installed somewhere else. Maybe like a sheet that will go under the skin. Another processor will most likely serve half the bots so that if the first is destroyed then the remaining can at leas control half the bots to get you back to health and bring the other back online. This will allow smaller bots because there only needs to be sensory equipment and have the ability to send and receive signals. Then again there is the problem with the signals not being able to get through your body and a power source......

" Random behavior from millions of nanobots isn't something I'd want in my body. "

More than likely they will shut off rather than go to random actions.

" That last one might be a little work-intensive, particularly since you might not want to be the guinea pig who finds out that the nanobot is building cancer cells instead of nerve cells.
You might also not want to be the guy who finds out the nanobot is destroying cells thanks to a bug, either. "

Of course not. An actual guinea pig will be the first to test it out. Then maybe a larger animal.

Originally posted by wet1
... still fiction. So were self propelled mechanical vehicles a couple of hundred years ago. But that won't always be so.
There is an ever-so-slight difference.
There is a difference in scale.
The first ones will probably not be computer guided but instead chemically guided.
What you are talking about are synthetic enzymes.
Originally posted by FA_Q2
Dammit tony you are ignoring what I am saying.
I'm actually trying to point out the difference between what you're saying and what you think you're saying.
Mind uploading will be attacked by society because of the copy part.
Actually, it will be attacked because it is so stupid.
Just picture the move Multiplicity, except that the fourth guy will always be the first guy.
At best, the first mind upload will be as "good" as that, assuming that all of the other problems are solved.
At worst, it will be a like a Playstation image of yourself.
Nobody simply wants a copy of themselves running around at the expense of their own life.
By definition, that is what mind uploading is.
The thing is nano technology will not get the same uproar form society because the copy part is well hidden.
So, you are proposing to upload minds without telling the "mind-uploadees" that you are doing it?
What would be the point of that?
A few generations that get used to the technology may find it useful to copy the brain but the word copy will not be used.
Technology advance by vocabulary manipulation.
Interesting concept.

You seem to think that making a copy will become not making a copy by simply not using the word "copy."

You should read George Orwell's 1984.
Pay special attention to the concept of "doublespeak."
Another processor will most likely serve half the bots so that if the first is destroyed then the remaining can at leas control half the bots to get you back to health and bring the other back online.
Problems don't usually go away be doubling their number.
More than likely they will shut off rather than go to random actions.
...
Of course not. An actual guinea pig will be the first to test it out. Then maybe a larger animal.
I can only assume that you have never owned a computer.

" So, you are proposing to upload minds without telling the "mind-uploadees" that you are doing it?
What would be the point of that? "

Not quite. Simply saying I am going to improve your neurons with faster more efficient ones will work. It really is not a copy but an improvement. The problem is that it might not be you at the end. But who is going to tell you about that, the others that are not themselves. Doubtful.

" Technology advance by vocabulary manipulation.
Interesting concept.

You seem to think that making a copy will become not making a copy by simply not using the word "copy." "

Almost there. It wont be a copy. It is taking the idea and slightly changing it. It is more like replacing but a single neuron is not something to worry about. The problem is that single neuron will always become more. More and more replacements and improvements until you realize you have replaced it all. Oops.

" I can only assume that you have never owned a computer."

That is defiantly incorrect.
Computers rarely do random things. Usually they go crash and you have to turn them off. If there is a problem you will have a nano BSD. Then a re-boot will have to occur.

*Originally posted by FA_Q2
Simply saying I am going to improve your neurons with faster more efficient ones will work. It really is not a copy but an improvement. The problem is that it might not be you at the end. But who is going to tell you about that, the others that are not themselves. Doubtful.*
I see where you are going with this.
But this thread is about "Life as an Upload."
The whole point is that Cris, and possibly a few others, is arguing that the copy WILL be you, and that you will/won't (he can't decide) be a copy of yourself.

What you seem to putting forth is what is happening today, except for the "improvement" part.
"Improve" is a relative term, so people missing a leg will consider it an improvement to receive an artificial leg, while they would really rather have their original leg.

Your idea seems to be that "bionic" improvements might be invented in the future.
Given the current state of science and the direction it is headed in, I'm rather pessimistic about the likelihood of that ever happening.


*It is taking the idea and slightly changing it. It is more like replacing but a single neuron is not something to worry about. The problem is that single neuron will always become more. More and more replacements and improvements until you realize you have replaced it all. Oops.*
Of course for that to actually take place, those artificial neurons would actually have to be better than what they are replacing.
So far that has never been the case, unless the target is damaged or missing.

*That is defiantly incorrect.
Computers rarely do random things. Usually they go crash and you have to turn them off. If there is a problem you will have a nano BSD. Then a re-boot will have to occur.*

You're funny; computers "rarely" do random things?
You're also missing the humor inherent in "crashing and turning yourself off" if your artificial neurons crash.
How were you planning to turn yourself back on?

Also, consider the effects of "crashing and rebooting" while you are driving, or standing at the edge of the Grand Canyon, or skydiving, or whatever.

I'd pay $10 to watch you crash and reboot while eating, even.

" What you seem to putting forth is what is happening today, except for the "improvement" part.
"Improve" is a relative term, so people missing a leg will consider it an improvement to receive an artificial leg, while they would really rather have their original leg. "

Exactly. The future will foster better improvements. Already the fastest people on earth are ones that have lost their legs and are using prosthetics. When the new ones can feel the same as the old and are more useful then we will see new limbs put on without waiting for an accident cutting the old ones off.

" Your idea seems to be that "bionic" improvements might be invented in the future.
Given the current state of science and the direction it is headed in, I'm rather pessimistic about the likelihood of that ever happening. "

Why?

" Of course for that to actually take place, those artificial neurons would actually have to be better than what they are replacing.
So far that has never been the case, unless the target is damaged or missing. "

Once again, the future will harbor better things.

" You're also missing the humor inherent in "crashing and turning yourself off" if your artificial neurons crash. "

You missed one thing. A neuron has no computing capacity. It is a single switch. I am not replacing your brain with billions of separate computers. I am replacing individual switches. All neurons are simply switches. It is your nanobots that will need the reboot.

" I'd pay $10 to watch you crash and reboot while eating, even."

Only if you can tape it for me. I want to see it too ;) :D