Does anyone have experiences with near death experiences, out-of-body experiences?

Would anyone like to comment on the issue?

I believe there is life after death. And not just on faith. I've studied the accounts of people that have been clinically dead. Some stated nothing happened, some stayed they had experiences.

What really gets me is when one of these folks can accurately describe what was going on in their immediate area, an adjacent room, or where loved ones are, while clinically dead.

How could that be a hallucination? If it is verifiable, this ability to describe events that they should not be able to, then there must be life after death.

Fascinating subject.

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

pashley

I tend to agree with you on this. I could
buy into the ideal that it was the mind playing games, but when you have people describing incidents sometimes miles away from them at the time that was happening, or children claiming they saw a sister or brother who had died at birth that they knew nothing about..... well, I have to wonder what is going on.
My belief is that our minds are connected somehow to the whole..... whatever that is, and during the the dieing process amoung other times we can tap into that 'whole'. I don't claim to have throught this ideal up, it's actually one of many ways to explain it that I've read over the years.
But rather you believe it or not, the one nice thing is if it's a part of the dieing process, then at least it can make it somewhat pleasant at the time. That is unless of course you have the bad type of NDE experience.
;) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Yeah, that's what I am saying, very interesting stuff.

Sometimes I wonder if all deist religions are wrong AND right. Wrong in asserting their peculiar God, but right in that there IS a God; a "something" out there that is pure love.

I once went to a George Anderson public reading. He is a top-notch medium. Communicates with the dead, and so on. Now, I'm a skeptical kinda guy with this stuff. I've seen frauds. I have an open mind to it, but skeptical. Anyway, he was getting a "hit" on one spirit, and he was able to connect to this divorced couple who had lost their child in a bike accident. He kept going on about the incident, giving really specific details about the death, the kid, and so on. Now, he wasn't feeling out the details; it was more like he was reading a fact sheet. I'm telling you, if these people were all in cahoots, they were academy award winners. It was quite hair raising. I video taped it. Again, could they been dishonest? Yes, but man, i would be highly surprised. The people were so emotional and so sincere...I don't know what to tell ya! :)

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Pash,

Are you a Christian?

Pash
I once went to a George Anderson public reading. He is a top-notch medium. Communicates with the dead, and so on. Now, I'm a skeptical kinda guy with this stuff. I've seen frauds. I have an open mind to it, but skeptical......................................... ...The people were so emotional and so sincere...I don't know what to tell ya!



Bible
Deuteronomy 18:
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Necromancer - "one who interrogates the dead, " as the word literally means, with the view of discovering the secrets of futurity




Tony H2o

Tony,

How much do you want to bet this is not a thinly veiled attempt by the Christian establishment to suppress competing superstitions? Just please don't remind me that God wrote the Bible, I know that already...

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I am; therefore I think.

You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God.

He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Tony,
I have a question. What about the story in the Bible in which Saul summons a woman with familiar spirits and at Saul's request speaks with Samuel. If that is so wrong...why did Samuel speak with her to deliver a message to Saul?

Why Flash, that wouldn't be a Bible contradiction -- would it? :) Btw nice to see you're still around.

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I am; therefore I think.

"How much do you want to bet this is not a thinly veiled attempt by the Christian establishment to suppress competing superstitions?"

Ride On Boris....

I think this statement has a great deal of truth in it. Not only on this particular subject in the Bible, but of a multatude of subjects that are in the Bible. No tolerance for other concepts and ideas are allowed.....

Boris,
LOL...well, yeah..it does seem like it, I know. Actually, what I found interesting is that Saul had tried time and again to get God to answer him... If I remember right Saul was separated by God due to sin or something like that..so he got desperate and went against his own rules and consulted a medium. Although Saul was "in sin" Samuel was a man of God...so I just don't get it, ya know :confused:
Thanks for the welcome back...good to see you are still about too :)

Flash and others,

The answer is there in 1 Samuel 28.

Flash your on the rigth track, Saul went against God's commands.

The understanding lies in what the womans response was when she saw Samuel. Also worth remembering is the fact that Samuel had died in the chapter prior. Get it? Dead, no longer amongst the living, six foot under, in the realm of spirit beings.

I know I haven't given you all much but I would rather see you all discover the answer for yourself than to spoon feed hecklers.

The answer is there if you honestly seek it.

Allcare

Tony H2o

Tony,
Ok, point taken...I'll look this up and read it.. Yeah, I KNOW Samuel was dead..that's what I don't get... If Samuel was a man of God..then why would he speak with this woman in the first place???? I know..I know..I'll read it for myself :)
P.S.
I hope you realize I'm not poking fun, ok? I am sincerely trying to understand.

Another hint: The woman was not expecting to see a certain person. Especially when that person stood against what she practiced.

Pashley,

Greetings! Don't think I've talked to you before. Nice to meetcha!

I believe there is some kind of "after death" that we can be conscious of. My father, his father, and his father's father have all had communication with their sons as they each died, my father has promised to say a final goodbye to me after he passes on too. I sincerely believe this, with all my heart. My father is an honest, open person, he would have no reason to lie to me about something as important to him as his own father's death and subsequent visit, and I sincerely doubt his father made up his story about seeing HIS father after his death as well.

I, personally, was clinically dead for about two minutes as a child, I just remember it being very cold. But, I was only a couple of years old when it happened, and didn't even try to remember it until many years later, so I don't hold a lot of stock in that memory. That may be the memory of how I felt right afterwards...??

I know a couple of people that claim to have had out of body experiences. One of them is a recent acquaintance, and she says she can probably teach me how to travel in the astral plane too. I'll keep you updated if I decide to try it. :)

MoonCat: How much does a ticket cost for a ride on an astral plane? ;)

Tony,
Ok, I read it... I do remember that Saul had disguised himself so the woman wouldn't know that it was him. I suppose he was desperate for an answer seeing how he did not receive one from God. STILL, what I do not understand is why would Samuel speak to this woman in the first place if it was against God's law? Can you explain that part for me?
Thanks,
Flash

Alderian,

:) Word is, it's free! You just have to work hard to achieve it. Being the lazy soul that I am...well, don't hold your breath on my account. :D

(edit: Duh, I get it. Astral plain, I should have said. Dangit. Typing too fast, reading too sloppily. Sigh. :) )

[This message has been edited by MoonCat (edited May 11, 2000).]

Mooncat: :D Hiya, I was just kidding with you. I have astral traveled before and I have my own idea about what is actually happening. I recommend that you don't try it. It CAN be VERY dangerous! Take it from one who has been there!

Cheers ;) and Nice to meet you!

Adlerian

Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my words and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life. Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

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This is The Word of God

Adlerian,
Just curious...why do you feel that astral projection is dangerous?

Also, if you are saying it is dangerous from a "christian" point of view then I'd like to point out that Paul had stated the following in the Bible.
"I know someone in Christ who, fourteen years ago, whether in the body or out of the body I don't know, God knows, was called up to the third heaven."

By third heaven I think that Paul meant a spiritual dimension..which would mean astral projection in this case.

Flash,

It has to do with what the woman was expecting to see and who she actually saw. It has to do with Sauls faith and trust also, look up what it says in the Word about running to prophets and diviners, enchanters, witches etc. God is to be our source of faith and trust, who was Saul trusting? What was the woman expecting? What was her reaction? If you look at the original text it promotes the concept that she was terrified, that she screemed for help. She was not expecting to see God's messenger let alone have standing before her the king who had decreed all sorcerers be banished. Try to understand what God was achieving here and why.

Tony


Mooncat,

Nice to see you around again :) You were a little misslead about it being a free ride, it could cost you your soul. And no I'm not preaching hell fire and damnation at you, although that would be another side effect. :(

Allcare

Tony H2o

Originally posted by Flash:
Also, if you are saying it is dangerous from a "christian" point of view then I'd like to point out that Paul had stated the following in the Bible.
"I know someone in Christ who, fourteen years ago, whether in the body or out of the body I don't know, God knows, was called up to the third heaven."

By third heaven I think that Paul meant a spiritual dimension..which would mean astral projection in this case.



Flash,

What they saw and how they saw it was by Gods will and at Gods time. It was not by human effort or technique.

Same with my dreams etc, not by my will or by being induced for my benefit and to feed my desires but given by God. God gives and shows visions and dreams be they either in the body or the spirit according to His glory. If a person says they have seen this that and the other or experienced a vision from God yet they fail in their very character and nature to show the attributes of God then they lie. Test all things Flash according to Gods character and nature. We are servants and not the servers, we can only recieve as He determins we are ready to deal with what He gives and the magnitude of it according to His character. He will first build His character so that we can then deal with His gifts in a mature way that will honour Him. We can not assult Him and lay hold of things we are not ready to comprehend. Do you see and hear what I'm saying?

Allcare

Tony

Tony,
It has to do with what the woman was expecting to see and who she actually saw. It has to do with Sauls faith and trust also, look up what it says in the Word about running to prophets and diviners, enchanters, witches etc. God is to be our source of faith and trust, who was Saul trusting? What was the woman expecting? What was her reaction? If you look at the original text it promotes the concept that she was terrified, that she screemed for help. She was not expecting to see God's messenger let alone have standing before her the king who had decreed all sorcerers be banished. Try to understand what God was achieving here and why.

Well to be truthful this whole thing is very confusing to me...I guess I'm not getting it AT ALL. Hey, I am trying though.
See, that's just it..I do NOT understand what God was trying to accomplish here. First, Saul WAS seeking God...over and over..yet, no reply. Sooooooo yeah, I guess due to no response he lost faith??? He went to a medium. Well, let me say this though..I do not believe the bible is 100% translated correctly..nor could it be for that matter.... soooooo I'm not really sure that seeking the help of a medium is any more wrong than going to a doctor for help when you are sick. After all..isn't God THE HEALER??? Doesn't the bible say that God's ways are not ours...in other words how WE expect God to "work" will more than likely not be the method that God chose to work in.
And hey, if God can use a donkey to speak through why the heck couldn't he use a medium? Anyyyyyy way... so could you help me out here a bit...what is the point?? I mean why would Samuel, a dead man of God, speak with this woman if it was wrong???? Two wrongs don't make a right, eh?

Tony,
So something we desire is wrong? If this is what you mean then why does the Bible say that God will meet the desires of our heart?

Let me put it this way. If you wanted to say come to Florida for a vacation and everything checked out just fine..would you see the harm in that? Well then would you expect God to lift you up and transport you there in a flash or would you buy a plane ticket? I suppose either way would be fine, yes? We are not only physical but we are spirits as well, sorry Boris LOL, so what the heck could be possibly wrong with taking a "spiritual trip"? See what I mean?

Flash, sounds like you like to travel light and cheap :D

So, simple questions.

What happens to your body when your spirit is off halfway across the universe?

In who's care and protection is it?

I mean if your off on a spirtual journey in the spirit world then you obviously believe in other spirits right?

So where are all these other spirits in relation to yours, and in relation to your body? Which you have left behind to go on a trip.

Getting the picture? Your no longer in control of your own senses, you have relinquished control.

Jesus told a story about this:

A demon having been cast away is sent into the wilderness and while there asks himself why? I will go back to the house I came from. Upon his return he finds that his prior abode has bee swept clean, tidy and is empty. Upon making this discovery he goes and gets a host of other demons, fouler and worse than himself. They then take up residence in the house, and the final state of that person is worse than when there was one.

Jesus cleans the house, spiritual forces must flee at his presence. The Holy Spirit fills the house, if the house has been cleaned and then is found empty why did the Holy Spirit leave? Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit when we abide in Him He abides in us. Do not profane the temple of God, lest the Holy Spirit be grieved.

Tony

[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited May 12, 2000).]

We are also exhorted to be sober minded and have self control to bring every thought into captivity. Sober minded being in control of our facilties.

The thought ones a hard one :)

Tony

Flash, sounds like you like to travel light and cheap
ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!! It's the only way to fly! ;)

What happens to your body when your spirit is off halfway across the universe?
I suppose the same thing happens then as when one is asleep, huh?

Getting the picture? Your no longer in control of your own senses, you have relinquished control.
I'm sorry but I must disagree with you here.
My brother has been doing this for many years and it(astral projection) is as he describes like having a string attached to your spirit and body. If something happens in the physical, say like trying to wake that person up when you think they are asleep, then it's as if this string pulls your spirit right back down into your body. When going on a "spiritual trip" one IS in control..or can be if not. I think that ones purpose of doing it should be in a positive way and not a negative one.

A demon having been cast away is sent into the wilderness and while there asks himself why? I will go back to the house I came from. Upon his return he finds that his prior abode has bee swept clean, tidy and is empty. Upon making this discovery he goes and gets a host of other demons, fouler and worse than himself. They then take up residence in the house, and the final state of that person is worse than when there was one.

Jesus cleans the house, spiritual forces must flee at his presence. The Holy Spirit fills the house, if the house has been cleaned and then is found empty why did the Holy Spirit leave? Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit when we abide in Him He abides in us. Do not profane the temple of God, lest the Holy Spirit be grieved.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...I hope you are not getting at what I think you are getting at...uhhh...nah...surely not.
I do not see it as a bad thing. Like I indicated I think ones motive should be positive...

I'm ok you're ok. :D

Flash
Whoa, whoa, whoa...I hope you are not getting at what I think you are getting at...uhhh...nah...surely not.
I do not see it as a bad thing. Like I indicated I think ones motive should be positive...



What did you think I was getting at?

If its a serious issue you know I say serious things.

Of course lets not forget to keep everything positive, that makes it all Ok dosen't it?

No sorry it dosen't, sorry about the heavy mode considering we've been fairly light hearted today. I'm trying to get where your coming from on this Flash but no matter the angel I take it dosen't cut for me. He the Spirit of all truth is not wittnessing to me that its all OK. So I'll look deeper into it for us both according to Gods Word.

Later on this one OK?

Allcare

Tony

Tony,
What did you think I was getting at?
Uh..nothing... :) I guess YOUR paranoia is spilling over onto me. LOL

Whoa, what happened to the light-hearted dude??????????? Tony, ya there BUDDY? :)

Look, I do not want to argue with you. I am sorry you do not understand where I am coming from...but I guess that makes TWO of us then because I do not understand where you are coming from either..LOL
Uhhhhh...why don't we just drop it.... I mean it is ok if we disagree about somethings, right? ;)

Who said that?

What who's behind me?

There's something under my bed again!!!!

Hey, who's calling me paranoid?

:D

See I'm still here :)

Later on the astral thing sounds good. It will give us both a chance to check out what God thinks.

Almost home time :D :D :D :D

Friday afternoons really drag.

HAHAHAHAHA.... Good to see you're still
here :D

Cool..then later it is, dude (regarding the astral projection)

Lucky duck! It's only Friday morning here..not that it matters..I have to work tomorrow anyway... LOL Last saturday someone called and made a bomb threat at the place I work so they canceled the overtime for that day ...who knows..maybe they will call again LOL

Tony,

"You were a little misslead about it being a free ride, it could cost you your soul"

To be a perfect brat, may I ask how it could "cost" me my soul? Don't you mean me (meaning my soul) would be cast into some kind of burning pit with that pink dude and the pitchforks?

Okay, now that I'm done nitpicking, let me say that while I appreciate the concern, I don't care for your dogma. (tipping my hat in respect) You, of course, may believe whatever you wish, but I don't hold truck with the Christian beliefs, and almost definitely never will. (I say 'almost' because I wish to keep my mind open, but the Christian philosophy makes about the least amount of sense to me out of all of the 'mainstream' religions) Your warnings fall on deaf ears, my friend. If I choose to travel astrally I will use extreme caution, not because I fear fire and brimstone, but because I don't wish to lose track of the mundane world I physically reside in.

Alderian,

When you speak of the dangers of astral travel, is that what you're referring to, the chance of not finding your way back? I would take as much care in experimenting with this as I did when I experimented with hallucinogens as a teen. Make sure you have people you trust that are experienced around, stuff like that. It doesn't scare me, I would just have to be exremely cautious.

You say you have had several OBE's, would you care to describe one to me? Was this a spiritual kind of thing for you? Did you travel far, or stay local?

Mooncat: There are many dangers "on the other side". Heed Tony H2o's warning. Whether you believe the Bible or not there is still truth there. There are guides, THEY ARE DANGEROUS!, there are spiritual entities with power that you nor I could even imagine, there are places you cannot imagine, and you could be changed...forever!

I have been to other realms (definitely not local) and around town (local). I have met guides and experienced telepathy. It was those experiences combined with others that started me on the path I am now on. All that I know about the universe I learned from a combination of history, philosophy, logic, religion and science.

If you had a co-pilot, as in hallucinogens, it wouldn't be the same. They cannot help you and if they say they can they are lying.

Do not go there. There are no religions or psychologists or ANY authorities that recommend such endeavors. They are dangerous. Period, end of story.

Alderian--

If you had a co-pilot, as in hallucinogens, it wouldn't be the same. They cannot help you and if they say they can they are lying.

Do not go there. There are no religions or psychologists or ANY authorities that recommend such endeavors. They are dangerous. Period, end of story.

I just wanted to make sure I'm correct, then, in my assumption that you've used hallucinogens before. And I would say at least twice, by the old adage: Once to say you've done it, again to see if you like it.

But, FTR, as someone who uses hallucinogenic substances from time to time, I would say that it probably isn't best to seek God through the drugs per se. But one who instantly distrusts a "religious vision" simply because the seer is on drugs is as assumptive as the seer who assumes the so-called vision true and complete.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited May 12, 2000).]

re: obe's near death etc. I remember seeing some medical/scientific experiment that took place in a hospital ward. All the patients were dying of one illness or another. The beds they were in had weight scales attached to them. At or just after the moment of death the scales showed a measurable loss of weight.I remember it to be very small, maybe an ounce or so, but it could not readily be explained. Maybe the weight of the soul as it leaves the body? Gerry B.

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Gerry B.

When a person experiences negativity during an OBE, I beleive that what is really happening is that they've allowed the monsters of their ID to get the better of them. It is clear that we are not dealing with the same plain of existance when out-of-body than the everyday in-your-face plain of existance, so we shouldn't apply the same rules to both of them.

Take for example, the magnified perceptions that occur in the astral plain, perhaps this is a reflection of it's intrinsinc nature. Our thoughts and unconscious play a larger role within it's enviorment, the danger/fear could just as easily be a harmless subconscious manifest. Or, less ideally, we could open ourselves to be more prone to encounter these not so pleasant experiences, via attraction. Nonetheless, if we are capable of leaving our bodies, then the capability must serve some purpose and should not be left uninvestigated.

;) thats my two cents!

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'These light rise to search the heavens, straining to be recognized in sancity, purity, and insolense... to hopefully catch the gaze of a supreme intellegence, watching us quietly and nodding a silent approval... because it is with faith and faith only that one justifies the reach, with little to confirm but glimmer and awe, ritual and circumstance alike... in dreams and visions alike, so real and unreal to be imagined again and again in reverse mindscape, was video fodder to soak in... he had his voice, disembodied with no claim,... but were the sounds his? could he own these thoughts if they could be sold?' excerpt from Glass + the Machines of God, By Billy Corgan

tiassa: Thanks for the comment. I agree 1000%. However, I have found more things to trust using my mind in it's natural cogitive state rather than under the influence of drugs, natural or otherwise.

Mita Oyasin,

Adlerian

Originally posted by MoonCat:

To be a perfect brat, may I ask how it could "cost" me my soul? Don't you mean me (meaning my soul) would be cast into some kind of burning pit with that pink dude and the pitchforks?




Hi Mooncat,

We don't get to talk often which is a shame because I think the more we got to know each other the more we would see we are very similar in the way we think.

Regarding the above, I was only warning. It is not my place to pass that type of judgement on you. Just as it is not my place to say that all gays, rapists, molesters, murder's, thieves, liar's....well you get my gist. Its not up to me to judge, only to warn that actions have consequences, consequences that people may not be entirly aware of.

Its funny in an ironic way isn't it? We seem very similar yet so far apart from agreement and understanding. I'm not trying to scare you Mooncat, but at the same time I am compelled by my concerne to warn people of the dangers they do not see. I'm not trying to apply rules and regulations about what is right and wrong to you or others, although in some of the things I say it may come across that way.

Mooncat, you a person who seeks fullfilment, you have a spirtual need and hunger. This is a good thing, its good to be aware of these things. I just wish I knew how to express to you that God, that is the God I serve - Jesus, well He's not only about hell fire and brimestone. It saddens me greatly to know that we as Christian's, Christ's ambassadors have left you with that impression. And if what I have said has given you a bent view I apologise, its not my place to judge.

God the Father has given that task to the Son, Lord Jesus. He is infinitly aware of all and His judgement will be sound because of this. He is aware of all the pain and hurt, the abuse, the sorrow and saddness, the lonliness. He's knows why people have trouble seeing who He really is and how much He loves them. He see's the sea of confussion, the stew of delussion, us saints who cry out Holier than thou just in our presence amongst you. I am amazed that Jesus ever left it up to us to show the world who He is, we tend to fail misserably. We tend to not lead the life He meant, and I say this from experience and as a person who falls short not in judgement of others.


Mooncat
Okay, now that I'm done nitpicking, let me say that while I appreciate the concern, I don't care for your dogma. (tipping my hat in respect) You, of course, may believe whatever you wish, but I don't hold truck with the Christian beliefs, and almost definitely never will. (I say 'almost' because I wish to keep my mind open, but the Christian philosophy makes about the least amount of sense to me out of all of the 'mainstream' religions) Your warnings fall on deaf ears, my friend. If I choose to travel astrally I will use extreme caution, not because I fear fire and brimstone, but because I don't wish to lose track of the mundane world I physically reside in.


Do stay open to what God may wish for you to learn of who He really is.

Deaf ears can be opened and healed, a hardened heart is a little bit more difficult. Please do not harden your heart (I can't do a smily face with a tear in its eye) :)


Please do be careful Mooncat.

Allcare

Tony

Tony,

That's real sweet that you're concerned, but I guess you're as close to understanding my point of view as I am to accepting yours.

Please don't take this personally, but Christianity holds no appeal for me. Let me try to put this in it's most basic form - if the bible IS 100% factual, than I find no space in my heart for the rotten bastard of a God that is portrayed within. Sorry, that's very harsh, but it's a harsh God in those books too, isn't it?

Fortunately, I don't think the bible is true. I think most of it is a wonderful story, but too many men - too many HUMANS have twisted and tainted and changed the meanings of individual words to the point where it's virtually nonsense, deliberately delted and mutilated whole sections of it, and who knows what else has been done to it over the last couple thousand years. Not to mention it's written after the fact, from so many conflicting viewpoints...(shaking head) No, I don't think the bible is the word of God. Even if it originally was (which I doubt as well) it surely isn't anymore. And as such, I can't see myself depending upon it as THE source of truth.

My ears and heart ARE open to God - any God that wishes to make themselves known to me are accepted. You think there's just one God, Tony, so maybe that's why you only see one. I think that God can be as many or as few as it wishes, so maybe that's why I see multitudes of them. :)

I can hear you now - the Gods I see are false, right, and there is just one God, he is the Christian God, right? Wrong. Sorry Tony, I just don't buy it. If your God IS the one true God...well, where the heck is he? When I open my mind and am visited by other spirits, where's Jesus? I left a seat out for him, but somehow it was never filled. When I dream of the Gods, why is is Mother Nature and the Green Man that speak to me, lecture me, and make me think instead of your Lord? Why is my brain and being put together in such a fashion that I percieve a droplet of water falling into a pond as far holier music than any hymn or verse uttered by any human throat?

THAT is where God is. God is in the droplet of water, s/he is in the pond, s/he is in the waves of sound that reach my ear. S/He is in my ear, s/he is in my mind, s/he is in my body, s/he is the dollop of divinity that makes my bag-of-meat body move and think. S/he is in every mother, and every father, every child, every cockroach, every maggot and every bird. God is in stones, and rocks, and dirt. In trees, in feathers, in dust mites and tornadoes. Add EVERYTHING up, and you almost have God.

Churches, bibles, incense, candles, priests, hymn-books...all unnecessary props. In my opinion, a God you have to SEARCH for is not a God. The daily magick that surrounds all of us constantly - THAT is God. That is the God I follow, 'in perfect love, in perfect trust'. :)

Ah, well, I've reached 'ramble' mode, so I better shut up and leave some disk space for everyone else. :D

May the blessings of the earth find you all.
~MC

Mooncat,

Thankyou, thankyou for being honest in what you say. Again I see we are not much different. It may surprise some to say that I saw a beauty in some of your words that I can full relate to:


Why is my brain and being put together in such a fashion that I perceive a droplet of water falling into a pond as far holier music than any hymn or verse uttered by any human throat?

THAT is where God is. God is in the droplet of water, s/he is in the pond, s/he is in the waves of sound that reach my ear. S/He is in my ear, s/he is in my mind, s/he is in my body, s/he is the dollop of divinity that makes my bag-of-meat body move and think. S/he is in every mother, and every father, every child, every cockroach, every maggot and every bird. God is in stones, and rocks, and dirt. In trees, in feathers, in dust mites and tornadoes. Add EVERYTHING up, and you almost have God.


I'm right there with you, when I see the beauty of a sunrise, when I hear the call song of a robin, when I watch little ants labour and toil and bee's going like clockwork about their chores, when I behold a stream of sun light through banks of grey and ominous clouds, when I see the morning dew sparkle with a glory beyond description on the branches of a tree. When I see all these wonders, all this beauty I ascribe greatness to the one who created it. It make me want to sing a song from my heart, a song not created by any other, a song to bring pleasure to my God and to thank Him the Lord of all Glory for that which He has done. "Lord of all, all of creation sings your praise, hearts open wide to adore you".

We are not much different Mooncat, and if I was to say that I think you are closer to the Kingdom of God than many of us Christians it would probably get me burned at the stake. I truly believe He has heard your cry, He will lead you into all truth because you seek it, if you seek it with innocence and humility you will find it.

But there is another side to the splendour I see, a darker side. A vision of pain and suffering, and I cry out like you WHY? Who is it that has come to destroy? Would my God the God I love do such things? Would my Lord who loves me so much that He gave Himself for me allow this to happen? Would my Father God of the OT really place destruction upon people, and if so for what reason? I was just asking Him these questions last night, I was trying to understand why He would instruct people like King David to wipe out entire cities along with all the men, women and children. Why would He instruct His servant Joshua to kill all the people, produce and wealth of Jericho?

This is a miserable scene isn't it? You all out there think I don't understand or try to understand what you think, or why you think it. You all have the opinion that I am a Christian who does not want to know, that my way is sovereign. Well yes I do believe my Lord is sovereign, but I do try to see things as you all do, I do not run and hide from doubt and fear I face them and allow the hard questions to be asked. At the same time I know that I know the Love of my Saviour. So how to I reconcile this?

The Lord started to answer me about these things last night. Although I do not have a complete answer I am starting to understand. He showed me a greater atrocity, a greater injustice than that which He allowed. It was the injustice of the innocent. The innocent babies that were sacrificed to idols, the innocent blood of the unborn and aborted children, the innocent lives that were wiped out over many years by those who were not innocent. Parents who knew of the true God that loved Israel yet chose to follow after their false god's and chose to sacrifice their children to gain the blessing of these gods. The Lord has shown me to look deeper than what appears on the surface, to consider in depth what has transpired over a period of time that would bring Him to the point where He would move against a person, a city, a nation, a country. The cry of the innocent blood that was shed over many eons of time could not and should not be ignored by a God who is just and right. He that is my Lord Jesus showed me to see things in the light of His character and nature, not in the eyes of a man with limited vision.

So having gone from where I started I find myself speaking to the reasons why you may not believe in the Bible, let alone the God of it. I do try to understand Mooncat, I do go to my Lord and instead of complaining about that which when viewed on the surface appear as atrocities, I try to see things through His eyes and in light of His character and nature. This helps me see things differently than most, it helps me understand the WHY? I do not pretend that as humans we are infallible, if I for one moment thought that each and every word written was verbatim from the Lord....well He could have explained it better maybe. But man did write most of the Bible, and I cherish the words in mine. But they are words of men written and recorded in an effort to portray to people some amazing events, some amazing visions, some amazing encounters with the Lord of all Glory. I as a man have seen things and experienced things that no matter how well I try and explain them I do them injustice. I can understand the weight of the task that faced these guys who wrote and compiled what we have as the Bible. And yet seeing all this I still believe it to be the INSPIRED word of God, for if we look, if we show ourselves to be honestly seeking then in it we find the very character, the very nature of the great I AM.

Well I've exceeded ramble mode :D


My ears and heart ARE open to God - any God that wishes to make themselves known to me are accepted. You think there's just one God, Tony, so maybe that's why you only see one. I think that God can be as many or as few as it wishes, so maybe that's why I see multitudes of them.

I can hear you now - the Gods I see are false, right, and there is just one God, he is the Christian God, right? Wrong. Sorry Tony, I just don't buy it. If your God IS the one true God...well, where the heck is he? When I open my mind and am visited by other spirits, where's Jesus? I left a seat out for him, but somehow it was never filled. When I dream of the Gods, why is is Mother Nature and the Green Man that speak to me, lecture me, and make me think instead of your Lord?


At the risk of sounding cheap, He is where He has always been. Right by your side, if you turn to Him Mooncat He will answer.

I am going to take a bold step here and ask you to give Him a chance. Put aside for a moment all the others and ask Him to speak with you, to open your eyes to what is the truth. He knows what you need to believe better than I do, He will meet with you if you truly want Him to. When I say truly I mean within your heart ask, not just saying empty words because He sees through things like that and right to our hearts. I will be praying for you friend.



Churches, Bible's, incense, candles, priests, hymn-books...all unnecessary props. In my opinion, a God you have to SEARCH for is not a God. The daily magick that surrounds all of us constantly - THAT is God. That is the God I follow, 'in perfect love, in perfect trust'.


Again we are not that far apart, however you do need to search, to search your own heart. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened. The Lord will not despise and earnest heart that seeks Him, not some mystical event or apparition but Him. Not some encounter to please and satisfy ones self but Him and His Kingdom, a Kingdom that reigns in men's and women's hearts.

Well I've said enough and probably to much......

Allcare

Tony




[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited May 15, 2000).]

Tony,

:) I am very glad you and I are getting along so well. I do enjoy this conversation.

You said:"I am going to take a bold step here and ask you to give Him a chance. Put aside for a moment all the others and ask Him to speak with you, to open your eyes to what is the truth."

Tony, I have. Maybe I did it the "wrong" way or something, but I opened up all the doors wide, and invited anyone with the truth to come. There were many visitors. But either the God you speak of was in a disguise, or he was not present. That door is still open, that seat is still sitting there, it is getting cobwebs on it, but it's still there.
My hunch was that he was perhaps there, as one of the many faces of the Green Man. I am probably to be considered odd for feeling this way, but I think Jesus was a marvelous witch. Don't be offended, please, that is meant as a high compliment.

I am coming to believe that the God you speak of is one facet of the male energy of "The" source, the "All", the unnamed "One" that is the beginning, the end, the everything. This must sound horribly heretical to you, but that is my honest impression, so far. There is an equal female energy too, the Goddess. Neither one are properly male or female, it is merely our human perceptions that make it seem so. Neither are even properly seperate from eachother, again it is our perception that makes it so. Both are merely aspects of that 'One'.

I think your perception is that God IS the "One", but I don't see it that way.

As far as the darkness you percieve - well, dark and light do exist together. It could possibly even be said that they cannot exist apart. Now, surely an all-powerful God could figure out a better way of accomplishing things than slaughtering whole towns, wouldn't you agree? That slaughter was not decreed by a God, that slaughter was decreed by MAN. God was the excuse, as it has been so many times in history. Just look at the inquisition - surely you agree that was not the work of a Loving Father? That was human corruption.

Have a good day, Tony. :)

Originally posted by MoonCat:
[B]Tony,

:) I am very glad you and I are getting along so well. I do enjoy this conversation.

You said:"I am going to take a bold step here and ask you to give Him a chance. Put aside for a moment all the others and ask Him to speak with you, to open your eyes to what is the truth."

Tony, I have. Maybe I did it the "wrong" way or something, but I opened up all the doors wide, and invited anyone with the truth to come. There were many visitors. But either the God you speak of was in a disguise, or he was not present. That door is still open, that seat is still sitting there, it is getting cobwebs on it, but it's still there.


Mooncat, dust it off and clean it up, oil the hinges and put out a welcome mat. :D I have spoken to my Lord and King and I know He wants to visit you. He has spoken to my heart and told me to ask you to consider how you invited Him???? I don't know exactly what He means by that but I kinda feel like He's saying the following:

1 Kings 19:
9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?
10 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire "a still small voice".
13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?


A still small voice, saying what doest thou here, Mooncat?

Do not seek Him in a multitude of visions or in the magnitude of a visitation. But stop and listen for His voice. He has always been there for us all, we just seldom stop long enough to listen for Him to speak and to hear what He is saying. Jesus said "He who has ears to hear let Him hear what the Spirit of God is saying"



My hunch was that he was perhaps there, as one of the many faces of the Green Man. I am probably to be considered odd for feeling this way, but I think Jesus was a marvellous witch. Don't be offended, please, that is meant as a high compliment.


He is the faceless one in a sea of many faces, when He shows His face it will be when you ask, seek, knock. Ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened. The time is upon us that all who seek to worship Him will worship in the spirit of truth and power. When you seek Him in truth, in realisation of who He is he will show His face to you and there will be no mistaking who He really is.

Your compliment is taken as such although I would have to say He was not a witch, He was and is the Son of God. He is so much more than I even as a believer could ever imagine or comprehend. I am sitting here stunned at the moment trying to comprehend that God became flesh and dwelt amongst us, way to big for my brain :)



As far as the darkness you perceive - well, dark and light do exist together. It could possibly even be said that they cannot exist apart. Now, surely an all-powerful God could figure out a better way of accomplishing things than slaughtering whole towns, wouldn't you agree?


He did, His name is Jesus. This will take a bit to clarify, so please be patient with me as I attempt to put it together.

The people of that time were rather.....how should I put this? Barbaric! They offered up their new born children as a sacrifice to their gods and idols to gain a blessing that would benefit them. Their motives were completely selfish, they wanted all the comforts and provision and were ready to murder, steal and destroy innocent lives to get them. They were so advanced in their cruelty that they had mastered the art of punishment and torture and could skin a person alive. They could keep a person alive while they stripped every shred of skin from them, can you even imagine the pain involved? These things were done to their children and their enemies, innocent blood was shed repeatedly in the name of their gods and to aplease them. This was an injustice and a just God an upright God who calls all into account heard the cry of the innocent blood just as He heard the cry of Abel's blood from the ground and He judged in accordance with His righteousness. THIS HAD TO BE STOPPED! That was His judgement, and so He declared and decreed to the nation He chose to serve Him and He chose to watch over and protect based on a promise He made to their ancestors, He, God decreed that they should carry out His judgement so that the nations that practiced these acts would know that the Lord God of Israel was sovereign and just. He had to break the spiritual connection that these races had to their "gods" so that these acts would not be passed on, and so He marked them for complete destruction. He declared that all that they are, all that they represent, all that they bow down to should be destroyed, it had to be wiped of the face of the earth lest it rear its ugly head amongst mankind again. Now what would you rather a continuation of the same acts of these people? We so quickly cry out that God was committing atrocities, but we fail to see thing from an eternal stance and from His eyes of justice, eternal justice. I believe that God wept over the lives that were cut off, I believe he extended His hand of mercy to these people on many occasions giving them opportunity to repent. I believe the cry of the innocent became a roar of injustice in the ears of God, and He being who He is, a just and right God could not ignore judgement. He had to act, He had to respond because His character dictated that He must and He could not go against His character for to do so He would be found at fault and that will never happen. I've had similar conversation with Tiassa in Sundry mumblings about Gods character and nature. One thing I will clarify here is that Lucifer knows God's character and knows that the Lord will not violate His own nature, Lucifer will manipulate events and will attempt to press God into a position where He must act according to His character and nature. Lucifer will do this to attempt to make the Lord appear as a harsh God. God did not tell those people to do what they did, God did not agree with them, God was patient to the point of judgement. The evil one was the one who coerced those people into committing the acts they did, he lead them into a path of destruction, a path that would lead to Gods judgement in order to make it appear that God was nasty and mean killing all because they would not obey. How wrong our judgements are. We see only in part but the Lord sees the whole. This is a difficult thing to try to explain Mooncat, are you not wise enough to understand that there are always two sides to the truth, one is a fabricated truth the other is the actual truth. I consider you are wise, you have shown this in your dealings with yourself, with the way you view things. What I have in a rather shabby way tried to show above was and is the pattern of the evil ones character assassination on God, a repeating cycle of manipulation and deceit in order to make people have a bent view of who God really is. And that is what breaks my heart most, the fact that we as a race seem to think we have intelligence and knowledge yet we fail to look beyond the superficial, we fail to show wisdom and we do not cry out for understanding of the truth. I come here to try to warn people of this, to attempt to show them the trap that we all can fall into, me included! My God knew before the conception and creation of us that this would happen, yet He had to create us because His nature dictated it to Him and He could not deny it. So knowing that we would be where we are He made an escape route, His name is Jesus. And the significance of what He has done is tied up in all of the debates we have here on all the topics we discuss, they all intertwine and it all leads me to Jesus as the way, the truth, the life.

I'm sorry if the above has come across as heavy, these things are heavy. They are eternal issues and deserve a better explanation than that which I have offered. If you are unsure of what I mean please let me know, if I have failed to make clear what is truly going on let me know. Please don't take any of this as an attack against you as a person, God loves you and He wants to be part of your life in a real and living way, He wants to reconcile people to Him so that His judgement will not need to fall on them and destroy them. For this reason He sent His Son into the world, not to condemn the world but to save the world and restore lives back to the Father through the Holy Spirit.

Please try to understand what is being said here Mooncat, just as I try to understand where you stand.

Allcare

Tony H2o

Tony,

I have read your post, but don't have time to respond properly at the moment.

I will get back to you though. In the meantime, blessings.

~MC

Tony,

Found a bit of time, lesse what I can say before I run out. :)

Back to the invitation thing. I opened the doors by meditating. I looked for anything, small or large, mundane or magickal. I found many small things, and not many large things. No voices, nothing as spectacular as that, just small feelings, little pushes, little "happys" popping into my head when I followed a thought down it's trail to a conclusion. Subtle, slow, and calm. I'm not a fool, I didn't expect Jesus to show up in his sandles and robes and hand me a cup of tea or something! :D I tried very hard not to expect ANYTHING, I was very truely searching for the truth, and felt ready to accept it for what it was, whatever it may turn out to be. I spent probably about 2 months or thereabouts on this, and when I got to a point the answers stopped coming, I mulled the answers I had recieved over and over. I looked, hunted, thought, wrangled and read. The answers I had received, the images and impulses that had come to me all seemed to mesh best with something "new" I "discovered". It matched paganism perfectly, and Wicca very closely.

Well, I have run out of time, I will have to finish later.

Tony,

I have read your post at least four times, and I do believe that I understand what you're trying to get across. You're saying in a nutshell, that God had to pick the lesser of two evils, am I correct?

Sounds plausible, but aren't we supposed to be talking about an all-powerful God here? Or do you not hold that as true?

I think that's getting close to the real core of one of the main problems I have with Christianity. It doesn't hold water. And the thing that makes that a real problem is that it is insisted upon that it DOES, when it simply doesn't.

IF the bible is true, IF God is 100% all-knowing, all-powerful, etc, then he has condoned, either through direct action or failing to act (which since he knows all outcomes is just the same as far as I'm concerned), so MANY atrocities! Including the creation of Satan himself!

Someone else had a thread started that hinged upon that very argument...I'm too tired to go hunt for it at the moment, so I don't really want to go heavy into that. But how do you reconcile that? Free will, baloney, by the way, (just in case you were going to use that argument); an all-powerful God could have made us in such a fashion that this was not an issue.

Anyway, I'm kinda grumpy; in case you notice a crabby tone there - sorry, long day. So, I'm gonna quit for now. I'll talk to you later. :)

Originally posted by MoonCat:
[B]Tony,

I have read your post at least four times, and I do believe that I understand what you're trying to get across. You're saying in a nutshell, that God had to pick the lesser of two evils, am I correct?


To a degree, it goes beyond the lesser of two evils and relates directly back to the very character and nature of God. (Very, very deep subject). Evil against the innocent calls for judgement.


Sounds plausible, but aren't we supposed to be talking about an all-powerful God here? Or do you not hold that as true?


You know I'm going to say "yes". But power does not come without the wisdom and character to know how and when to use it. This is a common problem that we as Christians have created for ourselves. We have made people aware that God is all powerful without giving explanation that even being all powerful He does have limitations, shock horror to a lot of believers out there on that one :) . The reason we don't understand what His limits are comes back again to knowing Him, knowing His character and nature. Once you know God's character and nature you can understand why He has limits, again this is deep stuff.


I think that's getting close to the real core of one of the main problems I have with Christianity. It doesn't hold water. And the thing that makes that a real problem is that it is insisted upon that it DOES, when it simply doesn't.


Your right, it make absolutely no sense whatsoever, everything appears contradictory and then there's all those atrocities, well who could make sense of a loving God doing all that? I mean just go back a few posts and look at the problem Stretch was and is having with this. Your right it makes no sense whatsoever, that is until we understand the very character and nature of God. Until we go beyond the superficial, until we dig deeper in our understanding.

This is problem we Christians have created for ourselves, we even us have not drawn close to Him and heard directly from Him, how then can we understand Him and explain Him to others??? How can we show the life in the Word of God?? How can we if we don't know Him? Mooncat, I know exactly why people don't understand, I know exactly why they ridicule, I know exactly why they doubt, I know these things because I see what you see, but I try to see it through God's eye's and not my own. Through God's nature and character and not my human wisdom or understanding. I honestly know why, and it burns in me like a fire to show others. But I have to be gentle as a dove and as cunning as a vipper lest I make them scatter in greater confusion and doubt. Again very deep stuff.


IF the bible is true, IF God is 100% all-knowing, all-powerful, etc, then he has condoned, either through direct action or failing to act (which since he knows all outcomes is just the same as far as I'm concerned), so MANY atrocities! Including the creation of Satan himself!

Someone else had a thread started that hinged upon that very argument...I'm too tired to go hunt for it at the moment, so I don't really want to go heavy into that. But how do you reconcile that? Free will, baloney, by the way, (just in case you were going to use that argument); an all-powerful God could have made us in such a fashion that this was not an issue.


There are answers Mooncat, and I would love to work with you, Tiassa, Fyrestar, Tab, Boris, Oxy, Dexter, Flash.....Everyone here to understand them. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do know from knowing Him that He will give me them when I view things the way they really are. In a realm beyond our own perception, in a place that He dwells and sees all.

To understand these things we need to understand God's Character and Nature, we need to understand His limits. We also need to understand the evil one and his nature and character (or lack thereof). In the light of this understanding we will see things much more clearly. We will surpass the things that we Christians so often argue about and in doing so create a sea of our own confusion. We will move beyond a bless me mentality and into a servants heart.

I see what you see Mooncat, I hear what you hear, I ask the same questions you ask, but I also know who's answers are just and true.

I would like to take this deeper my friend, and I would propose that I start a new topic on this. As way of introduction I will copy in excerpt from other posts that have touched on this, just give me a couple of days to get around to it.....Hope to see you all there.

Allcare

Tony H2o

http://www.inspired-tech.com/dovebar1.gif



[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited May 18, 2000).]

Originally posted by gerry baker:
re: obe's near death etc. I remember seeing some medical/scientific experiment that took place in a hospital ward. All the patients were dying of one illness or another. The beds they were in had weight scales attached to them. At or just after the moment of death the scales showed a measurable loss of weight.I remember it to be very small, maybe an ounce or so, but it could not readily be explained. Maybe the weight of the soul as it leaves the body? Gerry B.



Gerry B,

Welcome to the site, unfortunatly you probably wont get noticed to much because there is a hot little issue blowing up with another newie here.

Look forward to seeing you more :)

BTW, I do remember reading about the above somewhere. If I remember where I'll get back to everyone.

Allcare

Tony

Shame, shame, you guys hijacked this OP into a discussion regarding the validity of the Bible!

What I was looking for was discussion on OBEs, particulary if you or someone you know has had one.

And as far as someone wondering my faith, well, it is officially Catholic. I am not a strict Catholic, no, but let me say in my defense, I am just now coming back into faith and God, and am working my way to him.

As far as the validity of the Bible, well, I would like to say I'm favoring it's creedence. I consider myself an apologist anyway!

Now, can we get back to the OP?!

Thanks!

------------------
"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Hi Pashly welcome back, nice holiday?

Getting back to your original topic I attach a copy of my first post here "Overview" you may also find "Dreams and Visions" interesting :)

Overview

Hi everyone,

Don't know exactly how to use this Post a Message thing, first time at it. Maybe won't even work or I won't be able to find my way back to see what people think about my thoughts. Anyway here goes nothing.

This site has many an interesting line of conversation to follow through. It covers things from UFO's and aliens through to issues about the existence of GOD and along the way there has been a fair amount of sarcasms and stirring, I hope all in good fun.

My view to let everyone know up front is that GOD is real and so are aliens (but the aliens are not from out there or in the future). I can't prove GOD with science but then if I could we would not need faith to believe and without that we will never understand or be pleasing to GOD. (Why do I believe? Read the attached at the bottom of the message, sometimes it takes a good wack to wake up.)

Getting back to aliens and UFO's there is a lot of conspiracy stuff going on and a lot of opinions and ideas being put up as facts. But what is the real question that we want answered? Are we alone in the universe? Are we a freak of nature? Are we a biological and evolutional mistake?

I would dare say that these are the reasons that everyone came here, (I actualy came here by mistake, thought it was interesting and decided to join in) It was and is that burning question that drives us to search for an answer, either scientific, spiritual or emotional. We will all continue the search until we find an answer that appeals to our views and knowledge of life, eternity, science, history etc. The only difference is the area we look for the answer. Personally I look at the Bible. Sure its not a scientifically accurate account of the history of mankind and planet Earth. Its put together from fragments of texts in different languages and translated in various ways found in different locations at different times in history and written by different authors that lived in vastly differing geographical, social and time periods throughout history. Pretty big call to ask someone to believe what it says right?

But that’s exactly why I believe it. What other religious work has been compiled in this manner and still maintained the same theme: GOD IS GOD. God is a supreme being and master of all creation, again the faith issue kicks in, you either believe this or you don't, you either believe with your whole heart or you don't - no in between.
Sorry, you'll find I jump around a lot with my thoughts and go off on a tangent sometimes. Getting back to the aliens, I said that I believe they exist but their not from the stars and their not from the future, so where are they from? The past? Actually my thoughts are that they existed before mankind was created, they existed in a realm of beauty and perfection until they rebelled and were cast down. These so called aliens are actually fallen angels, no this is not my theory its actually Biblical and if you want to pursue it further there are numerous web sites about it. By the way you won't find that theory in a Hollywood blockbuster movie (yet).

But when you’ve researched this and many other topical issues a burning question still remains. Many of the responses mentioned about Jesus and I’d have to say that through all my study and the knowledge that I have accumulated it has not strengthened my faith in him. What has strengthened my faith is realising that the whole Bible points to Jesus. What has strengthened my faith is simply reading and obeying his words with a child like faith. All these issues of UFO’s, aliens, Loch Ness monster, Ghosts the paranormal etc are mearly a smokescreen designed to distract us from this simple fact – the faith of a child. Sure go ahead research and investigate all these things, but all they will do is run you in circles.

Sorry everyone I can’t put up a concrete argument up about God or creation, but then again science can’t put up a concrete argument about the big bang or evolution or an expanding or collapsing universe etc. So it all comes down to what you put your faith in. Me in God, believe me if I could prove God to any of you I would love to, first believe and then you will see things in a different light.

God calls himself I AM that I AM, dwell on this and try to comprehend everything that ever was and ever will be in an instant. No go hey?

You see we are 3 dimensional beings living in a 3D world travelling through the fourth dimension of time relying on five senses to relate to all we experience in this journey. Now compared to the great I AM who the bible says we are created in the image of you would then have to concur that He has the same 5 senses, however His are not limited to or constrained by the dimensions that mans are. Also His senses are not limited to certain sound frequency ranges or light wave lengths or temperature sensitivity ranges or pressure capacity limits or odour and taste detection limits. Why do you think humankind is trying to reach out to the stars? What do you think is the driving force behind humankind having an insatiable thirst for knowledge and technological development? What drives us to study things at a subatomic level and to study quantum mechanics? We have developed the technology to view things never imagined, to listen to the heartbeat of a dying star in a distant galaxy, to cure the once incurable, to manipulate particles at a sub atomic level and create nano machines, to humanly travel at supersonic speed (mach 26+ to escape earths atmosphere) to communicate at the speed of light, to live in hostile uninhabitable environments such as space for extended periods of time, to genetically engineer food crops for greater and pest resistant yields, to genetically clone and manipulate life, IVF, growing human ears on the back of a rat, mapping the entire human gene and the list goes on.

Our quest is a quest to become like God, to develop the same capabilities that he has. It’s a quest that started at the fall of man when we ate the forbidden fruit in an effort to become just like God. A quest to be able to transcend the limits that bind us through knowledge and technology and thereby say that we as humankind have achieved the status of god. We have build and are building a new Babylon, a tower of technology that spirals upwards towards the heavens in an effort to reach and assault the throne of God.

What I’m trying to get across is the massive greatness of an infinite God compared to finite man, we only see in part with the capacity and abilities that we have, but He sees the whole. We often judge wrongly because of this but His judgement is sound because of his immense and infinite greatness. It a complex thing to try to understand the mind of God, only one human has ever done this – Jesus. He said that he only said and did the things he saw the Father doing. Study His life and actions and you get a glimpse of the mind of God towards mankind. Put your faith in Him and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you and you will start to lead a life that would in many peoples opinions be fanatical, but it will be a life that makes an eternal difference in the lives of others and your own.

There is only one way for man to reach God – Jesus.

Oh before I go the reason I believe:
WHO ARE YOU?

This event occurred half my lifetime ago when I was 17. To record the details of the experience in writing does not do it true justice. The closest thing that I can parallel it to would be what many may refer to as a near death experience, however I can not call it this as at no point did I even consider that I had died or was going to die.

This event took place in a remote central NSW town called Seals Rocks during a surfing safari with some friends. I had been surfing and had just hopped out of the water when I became violently ill, nausea, vomiting, dizzy, shaking and weak. After I had stopped being sick I managed to compose myself, change out of my wet suit into dry clothes and sit in the front seat of the van to try to get some rest.

The next thing I recall was that I found myself (and I mean myself in the real sense, as real as typing this record) in a tunnel experiencing the sensation of falling or sliding in a forward direction. The walls of this tunnel were rainbow coloured like oil on water and were moving past at high speed.
As this experience began a voice repeatedly echoed a question "WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU?" needless to say that I felt very anxious. All my senses were working in overdrive and the sensation of falling increased, it felt as though I was going faster and faster with the question "WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? pressing in on me as I answered "I'm Tony, I'm Tony, I'm Tony". While this was happening I was trying to reach out and slow myself down against the walls of the tunnel, this was futile for no matter how close the walls looked I could not reach them and the speed and the question kept on and on. I can’t put a time span against these events everything seemed to be flashing past yet the tunnel went on and on. Time did not seem relevant in that place, I would measure it more in its intensity than anything else a relentless intensity which grew and grew and grew. Suddenly I found myself motionless in a large round room with an old wooden table and chair, oil coloured walls and the question "WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU?" echoing in my head. The intensity was relentless I had reached the end of my rope, fallen off and was screaming "I'M TONY, I'M TONY, I'M TONY, and sobbing, but who are you?

At this point the repeating question stopped.

I looked up from the table at which I was seated and there before me was an opening door, beyond the door there was brilliant white light. When the door was fully opened I could make out the form of a man wearing a long single piece garment. The light stopped at the doorway and did not enter the round room, neither did the figure. (The effect was similar to that created when you face towards the sun and hold your hand in front to shadow your eyes, the intensity of the light behind your hand causes it to appear as a shadow in front of you with a distinct outline).

The figure before me answered my question:
"I AM THE ONE WHO HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES"

I immediately found myself back in the front seat of the van.

I firmly believe that on that day I stood before Jesus, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The question that was asked of me "WHO ARE YOU?" was not the question of "What's your name?" It’s a question that cuts through bone and flesh to the very heart of a man HIS SPIRIT, and asks the real question:

Who are you in the eyes of GOD? When asked that question what answer can you give?
At that point in my life I had no other answer but my name, a name that was foreign to God. I considered this and ask myself if I died today and the same question was asked what would my answer be?

From that point on I searched for and I believe found God. In the Gospels of the Bible I found recorded the history of a man and God, the words of Jesus became alive to me and are etched on my heart. I came from a back ground with minimal religious influence, my path of discovery occurred between God and me through the bible without a great deal of outside influence from a church or religion.

Did I get “saved” on that day? No (the light did not enter the room), but I got excited, scared, upset, happy and went through just about every other emotion possible. I had come into His presence, into an experience of something that I could not fully fathom or understand. I believe that my true point of conversion occurred as I was walking home from a party one night along the beach. I remember looking at the stars in the sky, the greatness of His creation and crying out to the heavens, “GOD I DON’T KNOW WHO YOU ARE BUT I WANT TO KNOW YOU, I NEED YOU”. It was a cry of a heart longing to repent, longing for forgiveness, a longing that I could not suppress and from that day on I have been following Him, not always feeling his presence even sometimes shying away and rebelling but when you’ve tasted of who he really is there is no hiding your heart from him.

I now attend church on a fairly regular basis with my family, however church or other people are not the cornerstone of my faith. Even today I would not label myself with a denominational tag I simply say that I’m a disciple of Christ – a Christian. Unfortunately even the true meaning of the name Christian has been lost due the fragmentation of the true Church and creation of denominations and titles, along with the many and varied arguments about doctrine.

When the Lord answered me on the day that I cried out “But who are you” I believe He was saying three things.

“I AM” – He stated “I AM” . If asked who I truly believe in my simple reply is: I believe in "I AM" Jesus Christ the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the one who was and is and is to come, the holy lamb of God. His death and resurrection. His call for repentance and baptism. His sending of a comforter, the Holy Spirit to indwell us as temples of the LIVING GOD. His close and intimate friendship.

“THE ONE” – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Even though there was one figure before me they were all present.

“WHO HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES” – On
the surface this may sound strange as the bible teaches selflessness, however in the context of salvation we need to help ourselves to His gift of grace. We have been given everything to lead us to a life of Godliness through Jesus Christ who loves us. If we really want to follow Him we have to help ourselves by taking up His cross daily. God Almighty has given us everything we need to discover who he really is through the Gospels, the Word and by the Holy Spirit of God. We need to take up the challenge and help ourselves by Repenting, Obeying Gods Word and Following Jesus, laying down our lives at the foot of the cross.

Since then I have discovered that the Bible is more than just a history book or a map to life, it is more than a book of theology and rules. It is God’s Living Water of Life and all who drink from it will never thirst again. In it we find examples of how men and women followed God, how they walked with him from day to day and KNEW HIM FACE to FACE. They knew Him first hand, not from any stories, not from any songs, not based on any other persons experience or instructions but from their own Love, Obedience and Yearning for Him and His Love for them.

My hearts cry is to know Him like this also. Not to have a relationship with Him based on vain imaginings or confining Him to my limited understanding, but to truly walk with Him and talk with Him the way that Adam, Mosses, Abraham all the prophets and patriarchs did. To see Him FACE to FACE.

It reminds me of the account in the Gospel of the Samaritan woman who was fetching water and met Jesus at the well. She went back to the town and told everyone about Him and many believed because of her testimony, however it didn’t finish there. The towns people went out to Jesus and he stayed with them for a few days. At the end of his stay the towns folk said to the woman, “We no longer believe because of what you told us, for we ourselves have heard from Him and know that He is the saviour of the world”
So the moral to this story? Firstly, don’t believe everything someone tells you without testing their character. Secondly, sadly there are not to many people left with solid character.

So what then? Who is telling the truth? Who has the truth? What is the truth?

Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man come to the Father but by me”.
Jesus said “The day is coming when those who worship the Father will worship Him in spirit and TRUTH”.

If you want truth but don’t trust what others say then go to the source of truth and ask for yourself. His name is Jesus. But be warned, if you really want the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God will turn your life, your way of thinking and approaching life completely upside down. Then you will be able to say like the towns folk did “I don’t believe because of what you told me, I believe because I have heard from Him myself”. It’s a funny situation really in that then you will know the reality of God and find yourself trying to convince others of it.


Allcare

Tony


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Tony: that was a fascinating story, really! But I hope this doesn't sound like I am not giving it the respect it needs, but, what I REALLY want to know is how did you do that really neat sig.?

Adlerian,

Go to the edit at the top of the post. Click it and you will see what I inserted.

I am glad you found the post fascinating. I have no doubt that if you read dreams and visions that by the end of it you along with a number of others here will consider me a complete nut case :D But I can live with that :)


Allcare

Tony

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[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited May 21, 2000).]

Originally posted by MoonCat:

Fortunately, I don't think the bible is true. I think most of it is a wonderful story, but too many men - too many HUMANS have twisted and tainted and changed the meanings of individual words to the point where it's virtually nonsense, deliberately delted and mutilated whole sections of it, and who knows what else has been done to it over the last couple thousand years. Not to mention it's written after the fact, from so many conflicting viewpoints...(shaking head) No, I don't think the bible is the word of God. Even if it originally was (which I doubt as well) it surely isn't anymore. And as such, I can't see myself depending upon it as THE source of truth.

Well Moon, if it's been so changed and twisted why are the earliest copies of the Bible, and I'm talking the New Testament specifically, identical?

See, you just guess all this stuff Mooncat. You can't get over your hate for this "bastard God" as you so pieously put it, that you just summarily dismiss the Bible as being a joke. Maybe you should TRY to understand it before just going off on it.

Pashley,

Did you even read that post?

Your reply:"See, you just guess all this stuff Mooncat. You can't get over your hate for this "bastard God" as you so pieously put it, that you just summarily dismiss the Bible as being a joke. Maybe you should TRY to understand it before just going off on it."

If you would have ACTUALLY read my post you'd see that I said the God as presented in the bible is a bastard, but I didn't believe that was a true representation. Therefore, the implication of that is that I do not think God is ACTUALLY a bastard. Tony seemed to understand what I was saying just fine, so I don't think it was that unclear. Nor did I ever say the bible was a joke, I merely said I believe it is inaccurate. Maybe you should TRY understanding my posts before just going off on them, hmm? If you don't understand, try asking for clarification instead of jumping to the most convenient conclusion while you're at it.

For the record (like it matters since you don't seem to be reading these anyway), I also don't hate the Christian God, and have NEVER referred to the bible as a joke. I think once I called it a "silly book" in a fit of anger, but that is the closest I have come to calling it a "joke". It is, overall, a good book, it has many good messages in it. Which I have said before. I just don't believe it is "the truth". Which I have also stated before. I'm starting to feel like a parrot here.

You can place words in my mouth all you want Pashley, if that makes you feel better, but if you seek my actual opinion, you'd be far better actually asking me instead of assuming things and then trying to bust me on them. I would appreciate it, and maybe we could have a REAL debate that way, huh?