Turkey is now rivalling Israel as a virtuouso of bribery and outmaneuvering of the US. Wouldn't it be interesting to hear the curses in the cabinet and pentagon while Turkey politely stands right in Dubya's way. This must be too subtle for narrowminded Americans, otherwise they would be wailing and hurling epithets at Turks instead of the French. How uncomfortable for the Busheviks that Turkey is not only better than us in bribery, but also democracy and prudent national debate.
Turkey is in an interesting position, and if I was them I'd be milking it for all it's worth. And amazingly, they are! See, the EU/EEC has introduced the Euro, an attempt to create a massive economic block (and thus political influence block) to compete against the massive US/Japanese economic block. The Euro countries are basically the beginning of a new superpower. Turkey is right there on its doorstep, and stands to become that economy's major land trading route to the Middle East, Asia, and Africa. Turkey wins by becoming a part of it. However, the USA wants Turkey to be one of its little outposts like Japan and Greenland and Kuwait. A staging point. So Turkey has been able to get a huge amount of money out of the USA for building bases and such. I'm betting Turkey will be squeazing money out of the USA as long as they can, before joining the EU.
Let's talk Dollars!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Why not? Can't they learn from the Jews? :m:
TOLES cartoon This cartoon sums up my thoughts on the topic. http://www.ucomics.com/tomtoles/2003/02/25/
Toles Rocks Dude ... Toles rocks. And he makes a good point. Money talks, bullshPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!t walks. Maybe we Americans shouldn't have sought to put a price tag on everything. But hey, it's encouraging. Seek financial profit in everything you do. It seems the world is Americanizing, indeed. :m:, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Dont you mean people, Tiassa? We as Americans, do put a price on everything, but so do the people who make oil!
The people who make the most money on the oil are the Arab royal families. (Their people still live in third world conditions) Next in line on the money making end are the oil companies and that is"us" The quest for wealth will lead to a two class society, and two class societies have historically failed. Our government, in recent years has assumed a "let them eat cake" attitude. We must retain some sense of human values or we will go the way ofthe Roman empire.
Depends on the degree Well, making money is one thing. But in the United States we don't operate on a true Capitalist structure, just a Capitalist underpinning. Were we truly Capitalist, things that cost less to make would cost less to buy; intangible factors of prestige, of course. But there's also a new phenomenon starting with the banks. Excessive teller fees and ATM fees come from the idea that these "enterprises" should "pay for themselves", a reduction of the banks' core vision. The actual core business of the bank becomes the mere holding and moving of money, and the act of putting money into the bank or taking money out bears a cost to the bank that should pay for itself. Hence $3 ATM fees in some areas, $10 teller fees in others. There is a difference between the finance of selling something and the idea that everything has a financial value. I mean, think about it: We'll authorize sports arenas in this country because their profits can be listed in a ledger. Schools have a harder time before the public than moneymaking enterprises. So I look at my fellow Americans and thank them for their leadership. What the Toles cartoon tells me is that insofar as the artist can tell, the world has caught up to the US. Why do the alleged "right thing" for free when you can do it for money? We should not be disappointed; our international neighbors are merely "Americanizing". We ought to celebrate the triumph of the American Way. :m:, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Hurrah for Turkish democracy (and deliberation, and soveriegnty)! How long before equipment gets loaded back up, and an embarrassed, misguidedly dispatched flotilla starts filing through Suez! Tune in TuesdayPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The world does not want this war.
Who has the most healthy democracy? 1)Turkey 2)The United States I would submit to my humble fellow Americans that there is no disputing the fact that the Turkish public has, at least over this issue, better control of their government than do we here in the Home of the Free.
in the past turkey has been a strong allie of the west and has offered support and a position to station troops, america want france, germany and belgium to agree to defending turkey so that the US can move troops out of turkey and south towards the gulf. france russia and china(i think china) dont want to help the us because they dojnt want a war this is because saddam has promised oil rights of any future "land gain" to these three countries which is effectively a support bribe. but "turkish democracy", well it was only recently that i realised how foul a system turky has infact only until about a month ago rape was used a form of toture during interogation and wasnt even considered to be a breach of human rights. infact turky was nearly accepted into the EU but was refused when the they decicded that turkey needs to clean up it's human rights policy first and might be re-considered in a couple of years.
Thanks for your insight Mr. Course, I'm enjoying your posts this evening. I hope you address a few more subjects and don't mind if I follow you around a bit? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I'm not a stalker so relax!
I was just watching a US Ambassador on Fox (missed the name) but he just noted something very, very significant. The FoxHoles were talking about the military implications of the Turkish rejection. The Ambassador stopped them cold with a much more incisive observation: Turkey is the model for the states the Bush Doctrine has the ambition of creating by force and intimidation, from deserts of preexisting resentment. Turkey is a Muslim-minority, democratic (yes imperfect), pro-western anchor-of-American-influence country, that is exercising its democracy and legitimacy in not taking orders from Washington. OK I don't expect the most brainwashed Busheviks to see the light right away with this. But there is now a distinct and undeniable hissing sound emanating from the Big Bush Balloon. Today was a turning point. Thank you Turkey for a refreshing glimpse at reality. Thank you Turkey for choosing the democratic process and not neoimperialism. Thank you Turkey for giving the Middle East a positive sense of hope: The opposition to Bushevism was in dire need of positive reinforcement, and not just fear and fury. Take your tanks, your ships, and your war and go F___ yourself with it Mr. Bush. Turkey is not going to be bribed or Bushited. Now: Do we really want to try this foreign policy amatuer-hour on some much more hostile and explosive countries in the region? Hisssssssssssssssssssssssss.
Really Hype? http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2000/08/F.RU.000804124445.html http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0110/p07s01-woiq.html http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2002/518/518p18.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10131-2003Feb14.html http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2000/08/F.RU.000818134934.html You gotta stop thinking these countries are against this war for moral reasons, or because they're tired of being pushed around by America. They're not, or at least these are not major concerns. The root of any opposition (or support) for this war is economics. Plain and simple. The Turks also seem to be a little concerned about the Kurds, as well. Really, the question I see as being worth asking, at this stage, is "Who do you want to get the money... the US, or Europe?"
It's really stunning to see how ignorant the public opinion in The U.S. is to assume that The Republic of Turkey is doing all this bargain and talks merely for money.This should be due to their money-biased mentallity and sheer ignorance of what other people in the world think about all that is happening. As a persin living in Turkey I can tell you that money is only a part of what is discussed in the talks with the americans.Turkey is a democratic country and doesn't like to take orders. On the other hand,What is really at stake here is Turkey's national sovereignty and territorial integrity.The possible establishment of a Kurdish state in our southern borders with america's consent and help would be the start of a long-term blood-shed which will spread to the other countries in the region.The case is not simply a war for disarming Iraq,but there is a great danger that long-term wars will be triggered in the region after that. There is also a worry about revival of terrorist attcks against the Turkey in the aftermath of the following disorder.As an strategic ally,Turkey helped the U.S. in the highest level in the first gulf war,but just after the war finished the U.S. helicopters started to secretly drop packages of military aid to the PKK(the separatist Kurdish terrorist group)and this was partly the cause of a new waves of attacks by them against the turkish security forces and innocent civilians which lasted for ten years. In the first Gulf war and its aftermath Turkey's loss was near 100 bn. dollars.None of it was compensated,though promised verbally.We aren't wishing to experience the same things again.As The Washington Post says: "But public opinion in this predominantly Muslim nation of 67 million people remains strongly against a war. Many people fear it would be a repeat of the Persian Gulf War of 1991, when Turkey was swamped with half a million refugees and its economy was devastated, ushering in a decade of financial instability that culminated in 2000 with a crisis in which the currency collapsed and unemployment skyrocketed. I've seen some caricatures in the american media showing Turkey as a prostituite who is asking for money and....I don't Think this and things like that will help the Yankees get our support.It only shows typical american narrow-mindedness and arrogance,But as far as we are concerned there are some things that are much more important than money. I hope the other countries in the region will also start to listen to their people and think liberally.
Personally, I say drop the troops off in Israel... hell, we've paid for that parking spot.. greasing the tracks of a few M-1 Abrams with some palistinians on the way to Baghdad won't hurt 'em none... Chuuush makes a lot of valid points, not the least of which is Turkish oppression and hatred of the Kurdish people! The Kurds had the misfortune of settling between Turkey and Iraq, two muslim countries. If the Kurds had settled in proximity to Israel, guess what? There would be screams among the muslim nations that Israel had stolen "Kurdish" land and must be destroyed! Since the Jews can't be blamed (as far as I know) there's not much of an outcry when Turkey or Iraq slaughter them. Really, you should research the list of atrocities carried out by the Turks against the Kurds.. There's more to it than that of course, but Kurdish nationalism is a driving fear in Turkeys hesitance to support an Iraqi war. We all realize tht muslim nations as a rule are loath to support a war against a fellow muslim nation under any circumstances. Althouth I will be satisfied with a new Iraq that truely rerpesents all of its citizens (including the Kurds) I would be happier to see a separate Kurdish nation formed. Another ignorant American's opinion..
Marquis: "You gotta stop thinking these countries are against this war for moral reasons, or because they're tired of being pushed around by America. They're not, or at least these are not major concerns" These are pivotal concerns that are changing America's status in the world. Cold economic analysis is also turning countries away from US minionhood. American corporations have a very well-understood history of extracting profits from the resources of other nations, keeping a minority wealthy, and often making the majority economically stagnant, if not poorer. This model was working until communications and education began to allow the majorities not sharing the wealth to see things more clearly. "Building democracies" will not improve America's clout. On many decisive levels, the US is suffering historic rejection of its increasingly exploitative and grossly self-serving international relations. Unfortunately, US leadership and media do not have sufficient situational awareness to understand the critical need at this moment in time to drop the arrogant attitude, stop babbling about our great services to the world in the past, and work hard to repair some critical and fast-deteriorating relationships. It's a long way down for the US, if it comes to it, matching American lifestyles to domestic American resources. We depend so vulnerably upon the offerings of other peoples, like no other country in the world. Everyone knows this, especially in the countries where we are most strenuously attempting to force our will. Since we have shelved diplomacy, and publicly taken up bribery, intimidation, and force on the world stage, our prospects have been ominously dimming. Unless some dramatic return to diplomacy is made very soon, America will find much more rejection ahead, and throwing a murderous tantrum about it may seal and accelerate her declining fate. I want America to prosper, but I know we are presently on the wrong path for that.
