If you see the writing on the wall, you're not alone.

Mene, mene, tekel... what was it, again?
Well, I may or may not get that far, but I'll take a go anyhow.

I will commit myself to no less than one, no more than five verses per day. (SEE EDIT)
If I fail to produce, I expect all of you to boo and hiss... in as encouraging a manner as possible.



If you, my welcome reader, were wondering, the Vulgate was first assembled from Greek and Latin sources by the good St. Jerome, under the order of Pope Damasus I and, purportedly, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's name is derived from the phrase editio vulgata, literally, the statement made accessible.
As is suggested by the root vulgus, or common crowd, the edition is not an item of elegant, Ciceronian Latin. It is basic, but, nevertheless, it is beautiful.

Actually, Jerome translated three different versions of the Good Book. First, there was the Romana Vulgata, mostly from the Vetus Latina, or Old Latin, and the Greek, but also checked against Hebrew and Aramaic sources. Soon after came the Gallicana Vulgata, with an improved Old Testament. Lastly, there came the Hispana Vulgata, whose Psalms had been translated directly from the Hebrew.

The script with which I will be working is the Nova Vulgata, distinct for the fact that it is the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church, which was the body that published it.

I believe all of this information is correct, and my sources are as follows.


Vulgate, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate)
University of Oklahoma (http://libraries.ou.edu/etc/bible/whatisvulgate.asp)
Vulgate, Encyclopedia.com (http://encyclopedia.com/html/v/vulgate.asp)


I encourage the reader to correct me, promptly, if I am ever wrong.

I welcome any amiable discussion, excluding those that are blatant digressions and those that are purely religious.

The only assets I will be using are the Vatican's online Vulgate (here (http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/nova_vulgata/documents/nova-vulgata_index_lt.html)) and a Latin-English Dictionary, the title of which I will introduce later (I apologize, but I cannot find it right now.).
I will not be checking my translation against contemporary scripture or church doctrine, but anyone else may feel free to do so... even in this thread.

I will copy the Latin verse, then provide the English. Afterwards, I may or may not give a short commentary.

Please, do not be confused. To quote Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, I am only an egg. I am not an expert, nor do I aspire to be.
I will feel it an accomplishment to make it through Genesis, and, already, I am doubting my resolve.

Before Entering Here and Abandoning All Hope, I will give all those interested an opportunity to comment and whatnot.



EDIT:
I have decided to occasionally violate this sanction; sometimes, I will produce more than five lines.

Are you saying you will be memorizing verses or simply reciting them?


The Book of Daniel by the way is fictitious in many aspects.

Before Entering Here and Abandoning All Hope, I will give all those interested an opportunity to comment and whatnot
I'm commenting and whatnot.


Told you I'd be more than happy, animated, can, gay, genial, glad, jolly, joyful, joyous, keen, light-hearted, lively, merry, optimistic, spirited, sprightly, vivacious to join you.
Now begin.

Are you saying you will be memorizing verses or simply reciting them?

I suppose I'm... reciting? I'm translating, basically, from Latin to English. I'll try to be as literal as I can.

We will be depending on you not to cheat Rappaccini, do not dissapoint ;)

I doubt he'd cheat.
His Latin is amazing.

Now get to it.

Item eadem vocabula Latina generatim servata sunt pro quibusdam typicis vocibus Hebraicis, e. g. miskkþn = “ habitaculum ”, ’ohel mo‘Þd = “ tabernaculum conventus “, terûmþh = “ primitiva ”, ‰uqqþh = “ praeceptum ” (non “ caeremoniae ”), mi™wþh = “ mandatum ” (non “ praeceptum ”) etc. Conservati etiam sunt semitismi qui dicuntur, e. g. “ cornu salutis ”, “ Deus iustitiae ”, “ semen ” (= posteritas), “ locutus est Dominus dicens ” etc.; sic etiam nomina propria Hebraica, e. g. Meriba, Massa, Mosoch, Misar etc. servata sunt.

It all seems like Greek to me! :p

LIBER GENESIS

Chapter One

1 In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram.

In the beginning God created the sky and the earth.

2 Terra autem erat inanis et vacua, et tenebrae super faciem abyssi, et spiritus Dei ferebatur super aquas.

However, the world₁ was empty and useless, and shadows [were]₂ over the surface of the abyss₃, and the spirit of God was borne over the waters.

3 Dixitque Deus: “Fiat lux”. Et facta est lux.

And God said: “May Light become.” And light was made.

4 Et vidit Deus lucem quod esset bona et divisit Deus lucem ac tenebras.

And God saw the light, for ‘twere₄ good, and God divided the light and shadows.

5 Appellavitque Deus lucem Diem et tenebras Noctem. Factumque est vespere et mane, dies unus.

And God named the light Day and the shadows Night. By evening and morning, the one₅ day was made.



Nota Bene:

₁ Terra is translated here as though it were orbis terrarum.

₂ Henceforth, brackets will indicate the insertion of a word for clarity's sake.

₃ I believe that "abyss" refers to that of the waters, or the ocean, not to Hell.

₄ One may notice the imperfect subjunctive, "were" here. This is a subjunctive of purpose, the purpose of God's action (God saw the light.).

₅ This "one" must denote "continuous" or in my opinion "unique". It would've been primus, not unus, if it had meant first.

Go, Rap! This is great. I'll be here cheering for you all the way to revelation.

6 Dixit quoque Deus: “Fiat firmamentum in medio aquarum et dividat aquas ab aquis”.

Also, God said: "May a vault be made in the middle of the waters, and may it divide waters from [other] waters."

7 Et fecit Deus firmamentum divisitque aquas, quae erant sub firmamento, ab his, quae erant super firmamentum. Et factum est ita.

And God made the vault, and he divided the waters which were below the vault from those which were above the vault. And it has been made thus₁.

8 Vocavitque Deus firmamentum Caelum. Et factum est vespere et mane, dies secundus.

God called the vault Sky. And by the evening and morning, a second₂ day was made.

9 Dixit vero Deus: “Congregentur aquae, quae sub caelo sunt, in locum unum, et appareat arida”. Factumque est ita.

However, God said: "May the waters which are under the sky be herded together into one place, and may dry [land] appear." And it has been made thus₃.

10 Et vocavit Deus aridam Terram congregationesque aquarum appellavit Maria. Et vidit Deus quod esset bonum.

And God called the dry [land] Earth and named the collections of water Seas. And God saw that which were good.


Nota Bene:

_{1, 3} I have chosen to translate "est factum," as "it has been made," in these instances.
I feel that the ita, which can also be translated as yes, indicates that the sentence addresses the present conditions of things. In other words, it justifies the story by stating, "Lo, is it not this way?".

₂ Secundus is, of course, an ordinal number, "second," not a cardinal number, like two.
This seems in disagreement with the earlier use of unus. However, we must remember that it is only after the second day that the one, unbroken day becomes primus, the first.



I'll be here cheering for you all the way to revelation.

Do you have any idea how long that will be?
'Cause I don't.

The King James bible is 1,291 standard (7.5 by 5 inches) pages long. Assuming the Vulgate, if on paper form, would be about this long and Redoubtable translates at his current rate of 1/4 page /1 day, it should take him about 323 days to complete.

eh it might just be me, but if there is 1291 pages and he does 1/4 of a page a day, does that not mean it would take 5164 days, 4 days per. page.

That's why I'm in the humanities and not the natural sciences.

Do you have any idea how long that will be?
'Cause I don't.

I'm willing to cheer the whole way through. I love this. I've never had experience with latin. :D "You can do it!!"

I was wanting to ask a question or two but didn't want to mess up the flow, but, while I'm talking. About abyss. "et tenebrae super faciem abyssi" I've read in Joseph Campbell's "The Masks of God" that the original word in here had some type of connection to Tiamat. And it seemed to be a retelling of the original legend of Marduk (I think) defeating Tiamat and making the world out of her corpse. The heavens and the earth. I believe that Tiamat was connected with water, as well. Do you think there is anything to this in the Latin or does one have to go farther back into hebrew? It's been awhile since I've read his books and I don't recall the exact connections.

One of St. Jerome's reference bodies was the Septuagint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint), a Greek Old Testament full of Hebrew idioms.
The word in this script was abussos, an adjective, without bottom, used as a substantive to convey a gulf or chasm.

Abussos, University of Chicago (http://colet.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/chuck/woodhouse_pages.pl?page_num=90)

The original Hebrew word is tehom, or deep. The word is known to have been derived from the name of Tiamat, the primeval chaos/dragon, whom Marduk, a divine figure of Mesopotamian lore, slew.

... we find Elohim at war with Tiamat, her name represented by the Hebrew cognate Tehom, the "Deep" and with her minions, the great dragons (Hebrew tannin) that constantly stirred restlessly within its depths.

The Conquest of Chaos, Utah State University (http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/worldview.html)


Please remember that Jerome was transcribing Scripture for the masses, and, therefore, what I am relating will be a far cry from the Hebrew.
This is the simplified message, not the Talmud.

If ever you are interested in the translation of a specific line, just ask. I will go through it word by word, if need be.
However, note that I know little Greek and no Hebrew; I will have to do research if your question relates to word origins or Semitic mythos or Middle-eastern culture. I will not hesitate to do this research, but please be reasonable.

Soon enough, the verses will prove longer and more complicated. Hopefully, this will give you more opportunity for questions.

Begorrah, I feel so cool. I speak four languages and also a bit of Latin -- and I must say that sometimes I feel sorry for English: it just cannot say certain things that other languages can. Hah! But, sadly, I can't say it in English either.

Alright, I have some comments:


One: Translate LIBER GENESIS.


Two: This kind of things always kills me when it comes to the Bible:

So there's verse 1 saying "1: In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram."
(In the beginning God created the sky and the earth.)

But it is only in verse 8 that this sky is called a sky:
"8: Vocavitque Deus firmamentum Caelum. Et factum est vespere et mane, dies secundus."
(God called the vault Sky. And by the evening and morning, a second2 day was made.)

But okay. What is interesting is the word caelum. It means 'sky', but also the 'what is measured out, has a determined size', note the phrase "the sky is the limit". Do note that the words firmament and sky are synonymous.
(Also compare German Ziel 'goal'.)


Three:

2 Terra autem erat inanis et vacua, et tenebrae super faciem abyssi, et spiritus Dei ferebatur super aquas.

However, the earth was empty and useless, and shadows [were]1 over the surface of the abyss2, and the spirit of God was borne over the waters.

3 Dixitque Deus: “Fiat lux”. Et facta est lux.

And God said: “May Light become.” And light was made.

4 Et vidit Deus lucem quod esset bona et divisit Deus lucem ac tenebras.

And God saw the light, for ‘twere3 good, and God divided the light and shadows.

For a shadow to exist, there must first be a light. But if at first, so verse 2, there was no light on earth, there could also be no shadow -- there had to be darkness, tenebrae. It was after that that God made light, and only after that, shadows were possible.

Hm.

LIBER GENESIS.

The Book Genesis (or of Origin)

So there's verse 1 saying "1: In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram."

But...
"8: Vocavitque Deus firmamentum Caelum. Et factum est vespere et mane, dies secundus."

What is interesting is the word caelum.

Yes, I understand that the first verse is confusing. I would remind you that this is only the Vulgate, but I think there is a better explanation.

Frankly, you see, one can assume that the first verse is a summary account of the verses to follow. In English prose this is done very frequently, after all.


Hmmm... I will change "earth," in verse two, to "world". This makes much more sense.
I suggest that Jerome meant to convey not terra in this word, but orbis terrarum, the world.



For a shadow to exist, there must first be a light. But if at first, so verse 2, there was no light on earth, there could also be no shadow -- there had to be darkness, tenebrae. It was after that that God made light, and only after that, shadows were possible.


Do you mean for me to change the first mention of tenebrae, in verse two, to "darkness," instead of "shadows"?

It seems a very ill-defined distinction to make, in my opinion.

In a scientific sense, we can assume that sans the existence of light neither shadows nor darkness are properly defined, can we not?
Both the word "darkness" and "shadows" are logically faulty, consequently.

However, I believe that Scripture is not logical. I believe that it presupposes the existence of shadow or darkness as an entity independent of and distinguishable from light, an entity that could've easily preceded light.

I believe it is the tenebrae which gives definition to the lux, if you will, not vice versa.
Therefore, it is immaterial to me which word is used in the translation of tenebrae.

I, myself, prefer "shadows," seeing as it is plural, just like tenebrae. However, most indices do define tenebrae as "darkness," no matter it's plurality, and (if you insist) I will make some changes... that is, if you make clear that it pains you just that much...

The Book Genesis (or of Origin)

Hah! Genesis and origin are not the same thing. Genesis implies a process, something active, while origin implies something static.


I would remind you that this is only the Vulgate

Why did you chose to translate the Vulgate?


Frankly, you see, one can assume that the first verse is a summary account of the verses to follow. In English prose this is done very frequently, after all.

Yes, I know.


Hmmm... I will change "earth," in verse two, to "world". This makes much more sense.
I suggest that Jerome meant to convey not terra in this word, but orbis terrarum, the world.

Yes, this seems to be better. The word "earth" is multifunctional, almost too much (from 'soil' to 'planet Earth'). But warning! Later on, it is said how this earth bore plants etc. -- and you can't say that "the world bore plants."


Do you mean for me to change the first mention of tenebrae, in verse two, to "darkness," instead of "shadows"?

It seems a very ill-defined distinction to make, in my opinion.

I have actually tried it, but it sounded odd.


In a scientific sense, we can assume that sans the existence of light neither shadows nor darkness are properly defined, can we not?
Both the word "darkness" and "shadows" are logically faulty, consequently.

True.


However, I believe that Scripture is not logical.

Wonderfully delightfully wonderful. That's the problem with the Scripture, isn't it? You can't dissect it with logic. (But how is one to translate it properly then?)


I believe that it presupposes the existence of shadow or darkness as an entity independent of and distinguishable from light, an entity that could've easily preceded light.

Yes. And I believe this has to be so, in order to make sense of the Creation.


I believe it is the tenebrae which gives definition to the lux, if you will, not vice versa.

This seen from the perspective of an already finished Creation, yes.

The main problems, as I see with the Bible, are at least two:

1. The meanings of certain words in European languages that were national languages of christianized nations (English, German, French, Slavic), have been modified under the influence of Christianization and the Vulgata(s). Meaning that the words we are using today are carrying some stamp of the understanding of the Vulgata(s) already.

So when translating the Vulgate once more with the means of language which this very Vulgate had been influencing for centuries -- what do we get?
Do you hope that in a second translation, the effects of the Vulgate would annihilate, and we'd get a purer version of both the meanings of Latin words (as we understand them), as well as a purer version of what English was like before it was influenced by the Vulgate? (Which I find most odd, considering the history of English, and it being 80% loaned form other languages.)


2. The bibilical story is a two-way inductive reasoning. It establishes itself out of itself. This obviously goes for the problem of the external justification of the story; the phenomenon of "believe in this because it says you should believe in it." (Gödel's second incompleteness theorem messes up things very nicely here.)

But this two-way inductive reasoning happens on the level of single verses as well.

The verses go
2 Terra autem erat inanis et vacua, et tenebrae super faciem abyssi, et spiritus Dei ferebatur super aquas.
3 Dixitque Deus: “Fiat lux”. Et facta est lux.
4 Et vidit Deus lucem quod esset bona et divisit Deus lucem ac tenebras.

From this, we, ex post, can say "I believe that it presupposes the existence of shadow or darkness as an entity independent of and distinguishable from light". Even though it should be clear ex ante -- if we are to begin at the beginning.

In other words: We need to know the whole story, the ending, to understand the beginnig. We must understand the whole if we want to understand the part, but to understand the part, we must understand the whole. Two-way induction. Such things defy logic.


I, myself, prefer "shadows," seeing as it is plural, just like tenebrae. However, most indices do define tenebrae as "darkness," no matter it's plurality, and (if you insist) I will make some changes... that is, if you make clear that it pains you just that much...

It doesn't bother me that much. I have my four languages, and together, they make a nice net of meanings of a certain phrase.


For the sake of sweetness: I have here before me a facsimile of the first complete translation of the Bible into Slovene, from 1584.

There, verse 2 (2 Terra autem erat inanis et vacua, et tenebrae super faciem abyssi, et spiritus Dei ferebatur super aquas.) is solved thus (going by the idiom): "And the Earth was barren and empty, and it was dark over the Depth, and God's Spirit was spread over the waters." -- It was dark: a verbal phrase with an adjective. I think that's a nice solution, regarding the meaning at least.

Also, my dearest Jurij Dalmatin, the translator, made a note to ferebatur: "spread over or spread upon, the way a hen spreads her wings over the eggs, warming and hatching them". I love those old translations, they are so hearty.

Also, my dearest Jurij Dalmatin, the translator, made a note to ferebatur: "spread over or spread upon, the way a hen spreads her wings over the eggs, warming and hatching them". I love those old translations, they are so hearty.

Interesting commentary, Rosa. This line in particular. I wonder if this spreading might be in relation once more to the defeat of Tiamat by Marduk? I believe the legend goes that once slain, Marduk skinned her and spread her body out to form the heavens and the earth. Yes. Here it is... "Then Marduk cut Tiamat's body in half and raised up one half to make the sky, leaving the other half as the restless oceans." From Rappa's linked site above.

This is interesting, because as you've said so often recently, nothing fell from the moon. Not even the 'word of god'.

By the way, thanks for that link, Rappa. Excellent site.

Hah! Genesis and origin are not the same thing. Genesis implies a process, something active, while origin implies something static.
All right.

Then, voila!

The Book of Creation

Why did you chose to translate the Vulgate?
For kicks, really...

But warning! Later on, it is said how this earth bore plants etc. -- and you can't say that "the world bore plants."

Yup! I think it multifunctional, as you say.

(But how is one to translate it properly then?)
I always thought intuition was a good substitute for logic.

Meaning that the words we are using today are carrying some stamp of the understanding of the Vulgata(s) already.
I understand what you mean.

So when translating the Vulgate once more with the means of language which this very Vulgate had been influencing for centuries -- what do we get?

The same old story, I should say...

In other words: We need to know the whole story, the ending, to understand the beginnig. We must understand the whole if we want to understand the part, but to understand the part, we must understand the whole. Two-way induction. Such things defy logic.

Seeing as we're discussing a thoroughly irrational system of beliefs, I don't think logical dissection necessary. It is amusing, though.

Also, my dearest Jurij Dalmatin, the translator, made a note to ferebatur: "spread over or spread upon, the way a hen spreads her wings over the eggs, warming and hatching them". I love those old translations, they are so hearty.

That's interesting to read, especially after invert-nexus' contribution.

Tiamat's skin, eh?

I hadn't realized that creation had been so completely... ripped off.










I still can't find my Latin Dictionary, damn it. Nonetheless, I present to you...


11 Et ait Deus: “Germinet terra herbam virentem et herbam facientem semen et lignum pomiferum faciens fructum iuxta genus suum, cuius semen in semetipso sit super terram”. Et factum est ita.

And God says: "May the earth sprout vegetation thriving and vegetation forming seed and fruit-bearing limb, producing fruit after its own kind, the seed of whom be in itself, upon the earth." And it has been made thus.

12 Et protulit terra herbam virentem et herbam afferentem semen iuxta genus suum lignumque faciens fructum, qui habet in semetipso sementem secundum speciem suam. Et vidit Deus quod esset bonum.

And the earth brought forth vegetation thriving and vegetation bearing forth seed, after its own kind, and limb, producing fruit which holds in itself a potential₁ according to its own kind. And God saw that which were good.

13 Et factum est vespere et mane, dies tertius.

And by evening and morning, the third day was made.

14 Dixit autem Deus: “Fiant luminaria in firmamento caeli, ut dividant diem ac noctem et sint in signa et tempora et dies et annos,

However, God said: "May windows₂ be made in the vault of the sky, that they might separate day and night and be signs to the times, days, and years,

15 ut luceant in firmamento caeli et illuminent terram. Et factum est ita.

that they might shine in the vault of the sky and brighten the earth. And it has been made thus.


₁ This word, potential, is literally "a sowing".

₂ Luminare I take as "window," but we will see how well this definition holds up.

Seeing as we're discussing a thoroughly irrational system of beliefs, I don't think logical dissection necessary. It is amusing, though.

But, if one cuts back and through the layers, there are some interesting paths that the early myths took. The way the different elements shift and turn, are rearranged and reinterpreted, between the various versions. They can tell us alot about our early years. The rise of humanity from beasthood. Religion certainly has it's faults (many) but, without it I find it likely that we'd still be primitive almost animals. From religion and religious thinking, abstraction rose like a twin. The abstraction that created gods also made it possible for the man-animal to become more. To reach for more. To imagine more.

Another thing to consider would be the alterations of form. A lot can be inferred from the changing of the tale from Marduk to YHWH. From the original murder in the tale I've got in store and the rearranging of the tale in Adam and Eve. Cain and Abel. Tree of Knowledge and the Serpent. Note also that it is the woman who is made to blame. In many earlier religions the supreme deity was female. The Earth Goddess type. The transfer from a matriarchal or equal society (hard to say which) and the patriarchal society is evident in some of the "choices" of differentiation. Note that I say choices. I have no doubt that many of the changes were accidental and incidental, but many (if not most) were likely deliberately done for a deliberate purpose. Intent once more. Hmm.

Or maybe I'm just too melodramatic on the subject. I certainly find it likely that written language would not have come to be without religion. There was some language being used for keeping records and such, but it is in the religious and propaganda-ish nationalistic (group affirming) writings that it branched out and began it's journey to what we now have. Religion. Art. Abstraction. Tool use was certainly helpful too, but efficient tool use is almost a side effect of abstraction or vice versa. The ability to improvise and to see things as what they are not. What they could be.

....Tangent alert. Veer back on topic.

I can't wait until you get to the tree of knowledge and the serpent. Cain and Abel also fit into what I'm going to say about the story of the Fall from Grace. Any one at all interested in this stuff, read Campbell's books. They have some very intersting stuff. Some of it may be speculative but it all fits so well.

The reader may note the EDIT in my first post. In this amendment, I provided myself greater liberty in... err... my postings.

In this spirit, I continue for the moment.







16 Fecitque Deus duo magna luminaria: luminare maius, ut praeesset diei, et luminare minus, ut praeesset nocti, et stellas.

And God made two great windows₁: the greater window that it would govern₂ the day, and the lesser window that it would govern the night, and the stars.

17 Et posuit eas Deus in firmamento caeli, ut lucerent super terram

And God placed these in the vault of the sky, that they would shine upon the earth

18 et praeessent diei ac nocti et dividerent lucem ac tenebras. Et vidit Deus quod esset bonum.

and would govern the day and the night and divide the light and the shadows. And God saw that which were good.

19 Et factum est vespere et mane, dies quartus.

And by evening and morning, the fourth day was made.

20 Dixit etiam Deus: “Pullulent aquae reptile animae viventis, et volatile volet super terram sub firmamento caeli”.

Still, God said: "May the waters bring₃ the crawler of the living essence, and may the flier fly over the land and beneath the vault of the sky."



₁ The use of the word window suggests to me that God poked holes in the roof of the sky.

₂ It is literally "would be before for the day". The verb is a combination of the adverb prae, before, and the linking verb.

₃ "bring," as in "nurture"

Kunax:
eh it might just be me, but if there is 1291 pages and he does 1/4 of a page a day, does that not mean it would take 5164 days, 4 days per. page.

5164 days, exactly.
This means he has 5162 to go.
"The suspense is killing me", munching on a Wonka bar, "I hope it will last.

(this is the part where Vert tells me I've abused Wonka)

Vert:
Interesting commentary, Rosa. This line in particular. I wonder if this spreading might be in relation once more to the defeat of Tiamat by Marduk? I believe the legend goes that once slain, Marduk skinned her and spread her body out to form the heavens and the earth. Yes. Here it is... "Then Marduk cut Tiamat's body in half and raised up one half to make the sky, leaving the other half as the restless oceans." From Rappa's linked site above.


Hebrew mythologies got 'nothin on them Babylonians.

I always thought intuition was a good substitute for logic.

Splendid!


5164 days, exactly.

That's more than 14 years!

(this is the part where Vert tells me I've abused Wonka)

Quite right. If I remember right, the aforementioned line was said in the garden while Augustus Gloop was stuck in the suction pipe. I don't believe he was munching on a wonka bar. Hmm. I happen to have an mpg of the movie right here, I thought he would be eating a flower or something, but it appears that he pulled something out of his pocket wrapped in paper. So, it's quite possible that it is a Wonka Bar. However the line should read: "The suspense is terrible. I hope it'll last." :D

Hebrew mythologies got 'nothin on them Babylonians.

But that's just it. They are connected as surely as night follows day. That's what makes it so fascinating.

That's more than 14 years!

My cheering fingers might be a bit stiff by then... :eek:


Rappa,

Keep going, my boy. Nothing to comment on in the last batch except for the oddity of "crawler of life". But, I suppose that's just in word construction. It brings to mind worms and snakes. But, I'm sure it means all things that go on all fours, eh?

You've added no notes. And no post yet today.

Get going!! You can do it!!

The use of the word window suggests to me that God poked holes in the roof of the sky.

Ahh. I was going to comment on the windows thing but forgot. Very striking metaphorically speaking.

21 Creavitque Deus cete grandia et omnem animam viventem atque motabilem, quam pullulant aquae secundum species suas, et omne volatile secundum genus suum. Et vidit Deus quod esset bonum;

God created the huge sea-beasts and every living and changing₁ essence₂, which the waters propagate according to its own species, and every flier according to its own kind. And God saw that which were good;

22 benedixitque eis₃ Deus dicens: “Crescite et multiplicamini et replete aquas maris, avesque multiplicentur super terram ”.

and God blessed these, saying: "Grow and be multiplied and fill the waters of the sea, and may the birds be multiplied upon the earth ."

23 Et factum est vespere et mane, dies quintus.

And by evening and morning, the fifth day was made.

24 Dixit quoque Deus: “Producat terra animam viventem in genere suo, iumenta et reptilia et bestias terrae secundum species suas”. Factumque est ita.

Also, God said: "May the earth bring forth a living essence in its own kind, beasts and crawlers and brutes of the earth, according to their own species." Thus, it has been made.

25 Et fecit Deus bestias terrae iuxta species suas et iumenta secundum species suas et omne reptile terrae in genere suo. Et vidit Deus quod esset bonum.

And God made the brutes of the earth after their own species and the beasts according to their own species and every crawler of the earth in its own kind. And God saw that which were good.

26 Et ait Deus: “Faciamus hominem ad imaginem et similitudinem nostram; et praesint piscibus maris et volatilibus caeli et bestiis universaeque terrae omnique reptili, quod movetur in terra”.

And God says: "May we make man into our image and likeness; and may they govern the fish of the sea and the fliers of the sky and the brutes of the entire earth and every crawler which is moved on the earth."


₁ I do not recognize the word motabilem, and, while I suspect it has something to do with the verb moveo, I move, I will consult an authority as soon as I can. For now, I have translated it as though it were a corruption of the word mutabilem, or changing.

₂ Earlier, I chose to translate anima as life. I now translate it as "essence".

₃ This is literally "God spoke well to these...".

27 Et creavit Deus hominem ad imaginem suam;
ad imaginem Dei creavit illum;
masculum et feminam creavit eos.

And God created man into His own image;
into the image of God He created him;
male and female, He created them.

28 Benedixitque illis Deus et ait illis Deus: “Crescite et multiplicamini et replete terram et subicite eam et dominamini piscibus maris et volatilibus caeli et universis animantibus, quae moventur super terram”.

And God blessed them and God says to them: "Grow and be multipled and fill the earth and subject it and be supreme to the fish of the sea and the fliers of the sky and all the breathing things which are moved upon the earth."

29 Dixitque Deus: “Ecce dedi vobis omnem herbam afferentem semen super terram et universa ligna, quae habent in semetipsis fructum ligni portantem sementem, ut sint vobis in escam

And God said: "Behold, I have given to you every plant, bearing forth seed upon the land, and all the limbs which have on themselves the fruit of the limb, carrying the potential, that they might be as food for you

30 et cunctis animantibus terrae omnique volucri caeli et universis, quae moventur in terra et in quibus est anima vivens, omnem herbam virentem ad vescendum”. Et factum est ita.

and to all the breathing [things] of all the earth, the fliers of the sky, and the entirety, which are moved on the earth and in which the living essence is, all the living vegetation for food₁. And thus it has been made.

31 [i]Viditque Deus cuncta, quae fecit, et ecce erant valde bona. Et factum est vespere et mane, dies sextus.

God saw all [things] which he made, and, behold, they were very much good. And by evening and morning, a sixth day was made.


₁ literally, "toward it that will be eaten"

Chapter Two

1 Igitur perfecti sunt caeli et terra et omnis exercitus eorum.

Therefore, completed were the earth and heavens₁ and every arrangement of them.

2 Complevitque Deus die septimo opus suum, quod fecerat, et requievit die septimo ab universo opere, quod patrarat.

On the seventh day God fulfilled His work, which He had made, and He retired, on the seventh day, from all work, which He were executing.

3 Et benedixit Deus diei septimo et sanctificavit illum, quia in ipso requieverat ab omni opere suo, quod creavit Deus, ut faceret.

And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He had retired from all His work, which God created for that He were making.

4 Istae sunt generationes caeli et terrae, quando creata sunt.
In die quo fecit Dominus Deus terram et caelum

These are the origins of the sky and the earth, when they were created.
On the day on which the Lord God made the earth and the sky

5 omne virgultum agri, antequam oriretur in terra, omnisque herba regionis, priusquam germinaret; non enim pluerat Dominus Deus super terram, et homo non erat, qui operaretur humum,

before any shrub of the field would spring on the earth, and the vegetation of all the region would flower; for the Lord God had not showered rain upon the earth [and] soil, which would [yet] be worked

6 sed fons ascendebat e terra irrigans universam superficiem terrae

but a spring was climbing up from the earth, watering the whole surface of the earth

7 tunc formavit Dominus Deus hominem pulverem de humo et inspiravit in nares eius spiraculum vitae, et factus est homo in animam viventem.

Then the Lord God shaped man, full of dust, from soil and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man was made into the living essence.

8 Et plantavit Dominus Deus paradisum in Eden ad orientem, in quo posuit hominem, quem formaverat.

And the Lord God planted a garden₂ in Eden to the East, in which he placed man, whom he had shaped



₁ Caeli is a different word from caelum, which I have so far translated as sky.

₂ "God planted paradise," more literally

HEY!!! What the hell happened here? Get to it, young man!!! You're slacking on the job. You haven't even gotten to the good stuff yet. Schnell. Mach Schnell! You've got some catching up to do. You owe us 40 lines as of today. Better get moving.

Schnell, Shcnell, Arbeit Mach Frei

Nunc animis opus, Rappa, nunc pectore firmo!

I will commit myself to no less than one, no more than five verses per day. (SEE EDIT)
If I fail to produce, I expect all of you to boo and hiss... in as encouraging a manner as possible.

why are you doing this? for what purpose? & to what end?
& at 5 lines a day, why you'll be really old, by the time you get to "Apocalypse"

Coming up on 50 lines owed.

Cmon, Rappa. Like you said. At least Genesis. You can skip the begets if you want.

I'm so disappointed... :(

55 lines owed...

Rosa. Looks like you may need to pick up the ball. You up for it?

It's called hurricane Ivan.

It's called hurricane Ivan.

No. No. NO. NO!!

Say it in LATIN. :D

Anyway, Ivan was over DAYS ago. :p

But, I guess you're saying that you will get back to it? I guess I'll have to live with it.

One usually has more pressing things to do before, during, and after a hurricane, guy.

There's all the stuff that has to be stowed, lashed down, boarded up, and generally put out of harm's way... like furniture, sentimental memorabilia, boats, people and livelihoods.
Then there's the storm, wet, windy, loud, and cold. We had a tide of six feet, I'd guess, and we were in the fringe. It was probably twelve for some.
Oh, yeah, there were a few tornadoes to consider, towards the end... just a few... rapidly moving, wall-rending, freight train-esque columns of rotating air.

The power was out for 'bout two days.
Then, of course, all those articles previously attended to had to be broken out and set about just as they were, for multiple households.

It can be worse, though. The home can be flooded. That's never good, you know.

As it stands, most have now dealt with or begun to deal with the flotsam and jetsam, the fallen trees, and the roofs with which those less-than-sturdy herbae had close encounters.


Then there's readjustment to school, the wondering if Saturday is temporarily going to become a week day, the listening to teachers complain about their moist, muddy floors and moister, muddier lawns.


Yeah, this ends this episode of Redoubtable's Mouthy Monologue, stay tuned for the next annoying Test of Our Emergency Broadcasting System, several days too late, Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!



I'll get back to the translation today, rest assured.








EDIT:
With approximately one hour and fifty-three minutes remaining in my day, I resume this aimless endeavor.


9 Produxitque Dominus Deus de humo omne lignum pulchrum visu et ad vescendum suave, lignum etiam vitae in medio paradisi lignumque scientiae boni et mali.

And the Lord God brought forth from the soil every beautiful tree, as a sweet food and sight, [and] also in the middle of the Garden the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 Et fluvius egrediebatur ex Eden ad irrigandum paradisum, qui inde dividitur in quattuor capita.

And, for the watering of the Garden_[b]1, out from Eden was going a river, which from there is divided into four heads.

11 Nomen uni Phison: ipse est, qui circuit omnem terram Hevila, ubi est aurum;

The name of one Phison: it is itself, which circles the whole Hevilan land, where gold is;

12 et aurum terrae illius optimum est; ibi invenitur bdellium et lapis onychinus.

and the gold of that land is the best; onyx stone and myrrh₂ have been found there.

13 Et nomen fluvio secundo Geon: ipse est, qui circuit omnem terram Aethiopiae.

And the name Geon for the second river: it is itself, which circles the whole land of Ethiopia.

14 Nomen vero fluminis tertii Tigris: ipse vadit ad orientem Assyriae. Fluvius autem quartus ipse est Euphrates.

Truly, the name of the third river, Tigris; it goes toward the East of Assyria. The fourth river, however, is, itself, the Euphrates.


₁ literally, "toward it that will water the Garden"

₂ I'm not certain that "myrrh" is very accurate.

15 Tulit ergo Dominus Deus hominem et posuit eum in paradiso Eden, ut operaretur et custodiret illum;

Therefore, the Lord God took up man and placed him in the Garden, Eden, that he would work and guard it.

16 praecepitque Dominus Deus homini dicens: “Ex omni ligno paradisi comede;

and the Lord God instructed [him], speaking to man: "Eat [your fill] from every tree of the Garden;

17 de ligno autem scientiae boni et mali ne comedas; in quocumque enim die comederis ex eo, morte morieris”.

However, you may never eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; for, on the day and whithersoever you have eaten of it, you wither in death₁.

18 Dixit quoque Dominus Deus: “Non est bonum esse hominem solum; faciam ei adiutorium simile sui”.

Also, the Lord God said: "Man is not good to be alone; I will make a likeness of his helpers₂.

19 Formatis igitur Dominus Deus de humo cunctis animantibus agri et universis volatilibus caeli, adduxit ea ad Adam, ut videret quid vocaret ea; omne enim, quod vocavit Adam animae viventis, ipsum est nomen eius.

Then the Lord God, with all the living things of the field and all the fliers of the sky having been formed from the soil, led them to Adam, that He would see what he called them; thus, that which Adam called every one of the living essence is its name.

20 Appellavitque Adam nominibus suis cuncta pecora et universa volatilia caeli et omnes bestias agri; Adae vero non inveniebatur adiutor similis eius.

And Adam named, by their own names, all the souls and all the fliers of the sky and all the beasts of the field; truly, [though], no helper of his likeness was found for Adam.

21 Immisit ergo Dominus Deus soporem in Adam. Cumque obdormisset₃, tulit unam de costis eius et replevit carnem pro ea;

So the Lord God sent Adam into a deep sleep. And while he slept, He took up one of his ribs and filled in flesh in place of it;

22 et aedificavit Dominus Deus costam, quam tulerat de Adam, in mulierem et adduxit eam ad Adam.

and the Lord God built the rib, which he had borne from Adam, into a wife, and led her to Adam.

23 Dixitque Adam:
“Haec nunc os ex ossibus meis
et caro de carne mea!
Haec vocabitur Virago,
quoniam de viro sumpta est haec”.

And Adam said:
"Now she the bone of my bones
and the flesh of my flesh!
She will be called she-man₃,
because she is a luxury, [made] from man."

24 [i]Quam ob rem relinquet vir patrem suum et matrem et adhaerebit uxori suae; et erunt in carnem unam.

On account of [this] event, a man will leave his father and mother and adhere to his wife; and they will be one in the flesh.

25 Erant autem uterque nudi, Adam scilicet et uxor eius, et non erubescebant.

They were both naked, evidently, Adam and his wife, and they were not blushing.







₁ The lack of subjunctive verbs in this verse suggests that man's eventual fall was a certainty, not a possibility, to the Lord. He also states that they will wither in death, which implies that, had they never eaten the fruit, they would've been immortal... I think.

₂ Yes, I know it sounds awkward.

₃ Virago means masculine woman.

Ah. Missed yesterday's post. It's baaaack. :D Excellent. Getting to the good stuff now.

However, you may never eat of the tree of good and evil;

Nothing about knowledge of good and evil? Interesting. Does that mean that eating of the tree actually imbues one with good and evil? I suppose we'll need to wait to see what happens when they eat.

The lack of subjunctive verbs in this verse suggests that man's eventual fall was a certainty, not a possibility,

Now that is very interesting. Now we need some jews to give us the hebrew and some grecophiles to give us the greek.

But, the latin certainly puts a crimp in free will, doesn't it?

He also states that they will wither in death, which implies that, had they never eaten the fruit, they would've been immortal... I think.

Which is probably why the Tree of Life was never made off limits.

Also, the Tree of Life has never been made illegal as far as I know.

Virago means masculine woman.

Very odd.

On account of [this] event, a man will leave his father and mother and adhere to his wife; and they will be one in the flesh.

This isn't usual Jewish practice, is it? I know that you are a jew if your mother was a jew but I thought the tribes still worked patriarchally.

They were both naked, evidently,

Evidently? Now I really would like a hebrew version. And/or the greek.

Nothing about knowledge of good and evil? Interesting. Does that mean that eating of the tree actually imbues one with good and evil?

It means I made a mistake.

Evidently? Now I really would like a hebrew version. And/or the greek.

That's how I chose to translate scilicet. There are probably alternatives.

It means I made a mistake.

Doh! Guess that's what I get for replying so quickly. :D

... or for relying on me.

2 I'm not certain that "myrrh" is very accurate.

Greek bdellion, from Hebrew, meaning 'a pleasantly smelling [pitch? the gluey thing coming out of trunks and sometimes leaves or needles] of certain tropical bushes and trees, myrrh'.


25 Erant autem uterque nudi, Adam scilicet et uxor eius, et non erubescebant.

They were both naked, evidently, Adam and his wife, and they were not blushing.

Or:
They were both naked, namely, Adam and his wife, and they were not blushing.
They were both naked, Adam, namely, and his wife, and they were not blushing.

They were both naked, that is, Adam and his wife, and they were not blushing.


My dictionary says that scilicet comes from scire licet 'it must be known', so the words to translate it with are "namely", "that is" (=evidently) -- and another one that is not possible in English.

If I were to translate scire licet, it would be as to know is permitted.





Tired. Must. Bed. This later.








EDIT:


Chapter Three

1 Et serpens erat callidior cunctis animantibus agri, quae fecerat Dominus Deus. Qui dixit ad mulierem: “Verene praecepit vobis Deus, ut non comederetis de omni ligno paradisi?”.

And the serpent was cleverer than all the animals of the field, which the Lord God had made. He said to the wife: "Has God truly instructed [both of] you that you might not eat of every tree of the Garden?".

2 Cui respondit mulier: “De fructu lignorum, quae sunt in paradiso, vescimur;

To him the wife responded: "Of the fruit of the trees which are in the Garden, we eat;

3 de fructu vero ligni, quod est in medio paradisi, praecepit nobis Deus, ne comederemus et ne tangeremus illud, ne moriamur”.

in truth, God has instructed us that we may never eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the Garden, nor touch it, [that] we may never wither.

4 Dixit autem serpens ad mulierem: “Nequaquam morte moriemini!

However, the serpent said to the wife: "By no means will you wither in death!

5 Scit enim Deus quod in quocumque die comederitis ex eo, aperientur oculi vestri, et eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum”.

For God knows that on the day and whithersoever you eat of it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be just as God, [both of you] knowing good and evil."

6 Vidit igitur mulier quod bonum esset lignum ad vescendum et pulchrum oculis et desiderabile esset lignum ad intellegendum; et tulit de fructu illius et comedit deditque etiam viro suo secum, qui comedit.

Then, the wife saw a tree which would be good for the eating, and [as] a tree, pleasing to the eyes, [which] would be desirable for understanding; and she took of the fruit of it, and she ate and also gave to her man, with her, who ate.

7 [i]Et aperti sunt oculi amborum. Cumque cognovissent esse se nudos, consuerunt folia ficus et fecerunt sibi perizomata.

And the eyes of both were opened. When they might'd recognized themselves to be naked, they stitched fig leaves and made coverings for themselves.

8 Et cum audissent vocem Domini Dei deambulantis in paradiso ad auram post meridiem, abscondit se Adam et uxor eius a facie Domini Dei in medio ligni paradisi.

And when they might'd heard the voice of the Lord God, walking about in the Garden through the light after midday, Adam and his wife hid₁ themselves from the face of the Lord God, in the middle of the wood of the Garden.

9 Vocavitque Dominus Deus Adam et dixit ei: “Ubi es?”.

And the Lord God called Adam and said to him: "Where are you?".

10 Qui ait: “Vocem tuam audivi in paradiso et timui eo quod nudus essem et abscondi me”.

He says: "I heard your voice in the Garden and I was made afaid by it, because I were naked, and I hid myself."

11 Cui dixit: “Quis enim indicavit tibi quod nudus esses, nisi quod ex ligno, de quo tibi praeceperam, ne comederes, comedisti?”.

To him He said: "Who, indeed, showed you that you were naked, if not [that] from that tree, from which I had instructed you that you would never eat, you have eaten?".



₁ I think there is an error here. Abscondit is a singular verb, and yet the translation makes no sense at all unless it is translated as a plural.

12 Dixitque Adam: “Mulier, quam dedisti sociam mihi, ipsa dedit mihi de ligno, et comedi”.

And Adam said: "The wife, whom you gave as company for me, herself gave it to me, and [thus] I have eaten of the tree."

13 Et dixit Dominus Deus ad mulierem: “Quid hoc fecisti?”. Quae respondit: “Serpens decepit me, et comedi”.

And the Lord God said to the wife: "Why have you done this?" She responded: "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

14 Et ait Dominus Deus ad serpentem:
“Quia fecisti hoc, maledictus es
inter omnia pecora
et omnes bestias agri!
Super pectus tuum gradieris
et pulverem comedes cunctis
diebus vitae tuae.

And the Lord God says to the serpent:
"Because you have done this, you are cursed,
among all the souls,
and all the beasts of the field!
Upon your breast you will crawl,
and you will eat the dust, for all
the days of your life.

15 Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem
et semen tuum et semen illius;
ipsum conteret caput tuum,
et tu conteres calcaneum eius”.

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and [between] your seed and her seed;
She will attack your head itself,
and you will attack her foot."

16 Mulieri dixit:
“Multiplicabo aerumnas tuas
et conceptus tuos:
in dolore paries filios,
et ad virum tuum erit appetitus tuus,
ipse autem dominabitur tui”.

To the wife He said:
"I will multiply your hardships
and your preganancies:
In pain you will birth sons,
and your longing will be for your husband,
but he himself will be master of you."

And Adam said: "The wife, whom you gave as company for me, herself gave it to me, and [thus] I have eaten of the tree."
See how Adam actually implies that God is to be blamed? His ideas were way ahead his time...

It is six months now since Rappaccini's last input. Six months.

I wonder if these verses have any, any prophesizing powers:


"Because you have done this, you are cursed,
among all the souls,
and all the beasts of the field!"

Rappaccini:

Good to see you resurface. I thought you were giving up on Sciforums???

More on topic, this is stimulating reading. Thanks.