Why is it ok to purposely and knowingly kill or hurt any creature for any other reasons than:

acquiring food to survive (1);
protecting oneself or others from bodily harm (2).

Why is it, when in the process of '(1)' or '(2)', ok to not to prevent unnecessary suffering (of the creature in question) where reasonable possible ?


I want to hear you arguments.


P.S.
I consider abortion to be a separate matter. Please do not bring it up here.

Why is it ok to purposely and knowingly kill or hurt any creature for any other reasons than:

acquiring food to survive (1);
protecting oneself or others from bodily harm (2).

Because you are stronger. If you want a longer answer because of their skin, body, ability to being employed by us, etc.

Research

Pest control

Environmental preservation

Because you are stronger. If you want a longer answer because of their skin, body, ability to being employed by us, etc.

Thanks for your answer.
Is this your conviction, or are you just coming up with an argument ?

It's never OK to harm another. I wouldn't even consider (1) a valid reason to kill.

Research

Pest control

Environmental preservation

Thanks.

Environmental preservation.. good point. I knew I forgot something.
This is a complicated matter, in my opinion though.
I assume you are referring to invasive species that need to be killed off to preserve the natural wild-life ?

Thanks.

Environmental preservation.. good point. I knew I forgot something.
This is a complicated matter, in my opinion though.
I assume you are referring to invasive species that need to be killed off to preserve the natural wild-life ?

Thats one. Then there is the environmental advantage of using animals for transport and work as compared to machines that destroy the atmosphere. Probably become more popular once we run out of oil

It's never OK to harm another. I wouldn't even consider (1) a valid reason to kill.

'Never' is a big word though.
What if you are attacked by a mountain lion ? You have the right to protect yourself.
Do you swat mosquitoes ?

Also, I don't think it's realistic that you disagree with (1).
Maybe you overlooked the fact that plants are creatures too ? ;)
People need to eat, the only problem with this is that we are with so many.

Thats one. Then there is the environmental advantage of using animals for transport and work as compared to machines that destroy the atmosphere. Probably become more popular once we run out of oil

Do you consider using animals to do work for us, hurting them ?

Research

Pest control

What are your arguments for 'research' and 'pest control' ?
I don't consider the words above to be arguments on themselves.

Do you consider using animals to do work for us, hurting them ?

Do they have a choice in the matter?

Research: for drugs and disease prevention

Pest control: if my home is overrun by ants, I'm not going to ask them to pay rent and put the seat down after using the bathroom.

Thanks for your answer.
Is this your conviction, or are you just coming up with an argument ?

Both. Actually Sam brought up a few good points too. Here is a challenge: let's turn back time by 10 000 years and ask this question again! Do you get the same answers? Does your answer remain the same?

P.S.: Please consider that using horses or oxes for farming also can be considered as hurting them...

Heh, plants don't have minds, they're not sentient. I don't kill anything. That may be unbelievable but it's true nonetheless. Not even a fly, I'm very careful when I am around little things because they get squished very easily. i saved a wasps life once because he thought having a bath in honey was a good idea. Silly sod. Of course you can't be irrational and allow yourself to be harmed by an animal and if you can't escape it would only be natural to save yourself first, but it's not my first reaction and I wouldn't dare consider it my right to kill anything.

How about the destruction of insects or other animals that destroy your property or livestock? Termites destroy homes as well as ants, beetles and other various critters so killing them would be prudent to keep ones home safe from being consumed. Also if you own livestock you would want to protect your investment by killing critters that are attacking and destroying your means of income. You could trap them as well.

Do they have a choice in the matter?
Obviously not, but I fail to see how it's hurting them. Unless, of course, they are not looked after well.

Research: for drugs and disease prevention
Do they absolutely need animals for that ? Isn't it a money issue ?

Pest control: if my home is overrun by ants, I'm not going to ask them to pay rent and put the seat down after using the bathroom.
Fair enough. You meant local pest control.
Are you for or against the use of chemicals ?

There are always humane ways of dealing with these things. As I say, we should never be irrational and appear crazy. If I have a pet I don't just leave it to be eaten alive by fleas because I don't want to hurt them. I would use citronella and comb the cat. I can say, for others, killing is almost a compulsion. Some even enjoy it.

Both. Actually Sam brought up a few good points too. Here is a challenge: let's turn back time by 10 000 years and ask this question again! Do you get the same answers? Does your answer remain the same?
Largely the same answers, yes.
Although research wouldn't be in the picture obviously.
Besides, this isn't 10 000 years ago.

Your answer was basically that it's ok to hurt animals because we can.
Does that mean that I can go into the woods and shoot any animal and as much animals as I like, and it would be ok according to you ?

P.S.: Please consider that using horses or oxes for farming also can be considered as hurting them...
That's debatable.. I'll leave it at that for now.

Obviously not, but I fail to see how it's hurting them. Unless, of course, they are not looked after well.

Hmm so if I switched an animal with persons, you'd have no issues? Lets say, to pull a carriage?


Do they absolutely need animals for that ? Isn't it a money issue ?


I'm doubting there would be many volunteers to study the toxicity of drugs in vivo

Fair enough. You meant local pest control.
Are you for or against the use of chemicals ?

I'd prefer an anteater, but in the absence of such, chemicals work. Not my first choice, but the more convenient one.

How about the destruction of insects or other animals that destroy your property or livestock? Termites destroy homes as well as ants, beetles and other various critters so killing them would be prudent to keep ones home safe from being consumed. Also if you own livestock you would want to protect your investment by killing critters that are attacking and destroying your means of income. You could trap them as well.

Thanks for your answer.

Maybe I should put "protection of lively hood where reasonable" down as point (3).. ?

Heh, plants don't have minds, they're not sentient. I don't kill anything. That may be unbelievable but it's true nonetheless. Not even a fly, I'm very careful when I am around little things because they get squished very easily. i saved a wasps life once because he thought having a bath in honey was a good idea. Silly sod. Of course you can't be irrational and allow yourself to be harmed by an animal and if you can't escape it would only be natural to save yourself first, but it's not my first reaction and I wouldn't dare consider it my right to kill anything.

Thanks, I think we have a lot in common in this matter.

But plants are living creatures and I consider it wrong to go about destroying plants and trees just for the sake of it. Precisely the same way I don't approve of stepping on ants because one thinks it's fun to do.

There are always humane ways of dealing with these things. As I say, we should never be irrational and appear crazy. If I have a pet I don't just leave it to be eaten alive by fleas because I don't want to hurt them. I would use citronella and comb the cat. I can say, for others, killing is almost a compulsion. Some even enjoy it.

Exactly, and I want to hear their arguments.

Hmm so if I switched an animal with persons, you'd have no issues? Lets say, to pull a carriage?
Humans are not build to pull a carriage :p
Besides, aren't we already the slaves of society ? I can't afford not to work, I really have no choice.
Whether animal slavery is wrong or not is not the point here. If they are kept in good conditions I don't see a problem with it.


I'm doubting there would be many volunteers to study the toxicity of drugs in vivo
So you have a dilemma. Is it ok to torture these animals for our benefit, and why ?

I'd prefer an anteater, but in the absence of such, chemicals work. Not my first choice, but the more convenient one.
Do you recognize the harm these chemicals do when applied by agricultural industries ?

Humans are not build to pull a carriage :p

nevertheless they do pull carriages. never seen a movie set in Asia?

Hey, this is not even in Asia:

http://www.itchypixel.net/photos/glace_grande_travers.jpg

nevertheless they do pull carriages. never seen a movie set in Asia?

True ! lol

For extra fun:

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r46/Motorbiker_photos/NewsPics/oldNewsPics2/Pulling-Motorcycle.jpg

Does that mean that I can go into the woods and shoot any animal and as much animals as I like, and it would be ok according to you ?

Can I do anything against it? Are we talking philosophically or practically? because the answer can be different...


That's debatable.. I'll leave it at that for now.

I am sure oxes just LOVE to plough fields in 100 degrees heat...

For extra fun:

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r46/Motorbiker_photos/NewsPics/oldNewsPics2/Pulling-Motorcycle.jpg

Oh.. ironic..
I hope for his sake that motorcycle is broken.

Can I do anything against it? Are we talking philosophically or practically? because the answer can be different...
Well, do you think it's ok ? Would you condemn my actions ?

I am sure oxes just LOVE to plough fields in 100 degrees heat...
I wouldn't know about that. You think it hurts ?

Hey, I am sure this bear love to dance and the chain in his nose is just piercing for decoration:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_n2UJhp1Z9QM/RuBLxC1kleI/AAAAAAAABYI/0C1wV-Plcrc/s400/thumb600_IMG_4697%5B1%5D.jpg

Hey, I am sure this bear love to dance and the chain in his nose is just piercing for decoration:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_n2UJhp1Z9QM/RuBLxC1kleI/AAAAAAAABYI/0C1wV-Plcrc/s400/thumb600_IMG_4697%5B1%5D.jpg

Syzygys I'm not sure why you are acting like this.
I think you know me well enough..

Well, do you think it's ok ? Would you condemn my actions ?

Depends on the situation. As I explained to Sam, I prefer the words useful and useless instead of right and wrong. They are more descriptive and less subjective... Morals are almost always subjective...

Depends on the situation. As I explained to Sam, I prefer the words useful and useless instead of right and wrong. They are more descriptive and less subjective... Morals are almost always subjective...

I agree.
So if a particular action is useless (like me going into the forest to wipe out all the animals for no particular reason other than my own satisfaction) you would condemn it ?

Depends on the situation. As I explained to Sam, I prefer the words useful and useless instead of right and wrong. They are more descriptive and less subjective... Morals are almost always subjective...

And useful or useless are not subjective?

Thanks, I think we have a lot in common in this matter.

But plants are living creatures and I consider it wrong to go about destroying plants and trees just for the sake of it. Precisely the same way I don't approve of stepping on ants because one thinks it's fun to do.

I heartily concur :D:cheers:

Destroying the environment is unwise. I don't agree with those who say they have feelings, but they are indeed alive in the sense they have energy.. On the killing for fun thing; a lot of people enjoy fishing, a whole industry dedicated to killing for fun.

And useful or useless are not subjective?

They are but less. Also,you might don't agree with my act but you can still see the usefullness of it from my point of view...

They are but less. Also,you might don't agree with my act but you can still see the usefullness of it from my point of view...

That would apply to any moral principle.

I agree.
So if a particular action is useless you would condemn it ?

Yes....

But keep in mind that reasons behind acts can change the evaluation of it. Let's say you have a farm with rabbits. One day you pull out your Uzi and mssacre 20 little bunnies for no seemingly good reason. Then later you explain that you got in a murderous mood and instead of going to the post office to kill a bunch of humans, you decided to get statisfied by the killing of the bunnies.

So after hearing that explanation, we might get very happy about the death of those innocent bunnies...

Yes....

But keep in mind that reasons behind acts can change the evaluation of it. Let's say you have a farm with rabbits. One day you pull out your Uzi and mssacre 20 little bunnies for no seemingly good reason. Then later you explain that you got in a murderous mood and instead of going to the post office to kill a bunch of humans, you decided to get statisfied by the killing of the bunnies.

So after hearing that explanation, we might get very happy about the death of those innocent bunnies...

Uh I wouldn't be happy at all. He could have better shot himself in the head.

You seem to be applying your subjective values here though.
Why are bunnies worth less than humans ?

Because you are stronger. If you want a longer answer because of their skin, body, ability to being employed by us, etc.

thats a poor excuse "because we're stronger"?

new born babies are weaker than you......so are people who are ill.....fox hunting should be made illegal, and whoever hunts with dogs should be fined, not only is it bad against the foxxes but the dogs aswell, they get a fox, put it in a cage right next to the dogs over night and then letthe fox go in the morning.

.
Why are bunnies worth less than humans ?

I will file this under the dumb question category... But to give you an answer, because they have less calories???

thats a poor excuse "because we're stronger"?

Poor excuse is not a logical argument, but a description of a feeling. :)

Also, I didn't write the rules, nature does. Remove humans from the equation and ask the question again, what answer do you get?

Why can the lion kill the gazelle? Because he is stronger/faster. End of story..

Speaking of foxes, it is ... I mean it was good business in England not to mention that without foxhunting foxes have no natural enemies, thus they can be a pest and danger to farmanimals.

Same with coyote in the USA, read the recent articles...

I will file this under the dumb question category... But to give you an answer, because they have less calories???

Hum.. thanks for your time.

Syzygys,

ok I'm game (pun not intended).

Isn't it a subjective assertion to say "Humans are worth more than bunnies" ?

Why do humans go on a killing spree when a couple of people get bitten up by sharks ?
Do the sharks feel that humans are worth less, or more, or equal ?

You sound like an alien visiting Earth and not understanding human behaviour. Are you an alien?

You sound like an alien visiting Earth and not understanding human behaviour. Are you an alien?

Yes I am.. so what ?

But you didn't answer my question. You had an aversion to subjective terms earlier, why not now ?

Isn't it a subjective assertion to say "Humans are worth more than bunnies" ?

No. Humans worth MORE than bunnies. Back in the old days a slave costed... you know where it is headed?

Why do humans go on a killing spree when a couple of people get bitten up by sharks ?

Modern day version of the witchhunts. What we don't understand, we fear...

Do the sharks feel that humans are worth less, or more, or equal ?

I am not sure I can speak for ALL sharks, but most of them feel humans are tasty...

No. Humans worth MORE than bunnies. Back in the old days a slave costed... you know where it is headed?

I can't say that I do..
Though my hunch is that you are not being serious and are referring to how much more a slave cost than a rabbit.

sam buy some spiders:p

Then ask THEM to pay rent and pay for all the free ants you provide them:p

I do have to agree with the operning post though. I dont kill anything really buy i do eat meat.

I only use products from animals that have died for food like leather and sheep skin, i do agree with testing of meds on animals because we dont have another choice though i dont agree with testing cosmetics or anything else on animals

I dont use pesticides unless i dont have a choice (unfortunatly the lady bug population isnt big enough to protect my roses:() but i dont use incecticides inside (mainly because of my fish) and i prefer to use companion planting and encorage preditory bugs rather than pesticides outside.

I dont kill spiders, i just leave them alone.

I do have to agree with the operning post though. I dont kill anything really buy i do eat meat.

I only use products from animals that have died for food like leather and sheep skin, i do agree with testing of meds on animals because we dont have another choice though i dont agree with testing cosmetics or anything else on animals

I dont use pesticides unless i dont have a choice (unfortunatly the lady bug population isnt big enough to protect my roses:() but i dont use incecticides inside (mainly because of my fish) and i prefer to use companion planting and encorage preditory bugs rather than pesticides outside.

I dont kill spiders, i just leave them alone.

That's cool Asguard :)

What do you think about this:
Maybe I should put "protection of lively hood where reasonable" down as point (3).. ?

it depends i would say. For instance rabbits arnt native to australia and so there are no preditors to keep there population in line so farmers dont have a choice but to kill them., the same with mice. Incects on the other hand generally have preditors you can encorage rather than using chemicals. In the end its the same thing i guess, when i encorage lady bugs into my garden they kill the aphids just as much as putting rose dust on the roses will except its more natural and these sort of solutions dont leave toxic chemicals on food crops as well (like my chili plants that now have aphids:()

Then there are health requirements to kill things like vinigar flies in comertial kitchens which none of us have a choice about and other guidelines (like the law that says its a crime to relace a carp back into the water ways after being caught)

So i would say if there is no better option and you can do it humainly then they are the most important things. Hunting for sport however is wrong as is the catching of animals just to turn them into fur when we have better options like leather, cotton, wool, synethics and sheep skin that dont cause any animals to die just to cloth you

it depends i would say. For instance rabbits arnt native to australia and so there are no preditors to keep there population in line so farmers dont have a choice but to kill them., the same with mice. Incects on the other hand generally have preditors you can encorage rather than using chemicals. In the end its the same thing i guess, when i encorage lady bugs into my garden they kill the aphids just as much as putting rose dust on the roses will except its more natural and these sort of solutions dont leave toxic chemicals on food crops as well (like my chili plants that now have aphids:()

Then there are health requirements to kill things like vinigar flies in comertial kitchens which none of us have a choice about and other guidelines (like the law that says its a crime to relace a carp back into the water ways after being caught)

So i would say if there is no better option and you can do it humainly then they are the most important things. Hunting for sport however is wrong as is the catching of animals just to turn them into fur when we have better options like leather, cotton, wool, synethics and sheep skin that dont cause any animals to die just to cloth you

We agree completely :)

Why do you think other people don't ? Do you have any insight in it ?

.. are referring to how much more a slave cost than a rabbit.

Very well done, indeed. See? You are improving...

There could be lots of reasons, people are lasy is one reason. You can also get higher crop yelds when you dont worry about companion plantings and encoraging good incects and just use pecticides though i dont think the quality is as good. As for hunting, the "people have always done it so why should we stop" mentality permiates certain area's.

Personally i think killing animals without using them is the highest level of abuse and bloodlust possable. I used to have a friend who went goat hunting yet he never brought the meat back to eat. Yes feral animals can out compeat natives and there is good reason to cull them but there are also uses for the meat (goat meat is delicious) yet all he wanted was a pair of horns. I dont have a problem with fishing except for those people who just do it to put the fish on the wall (no problem with catch and releace or bringing them home for dinner). These people are one of the reasons fish stocks are so low and it effects not only that species but all the others as well because the oceans and water ways are a biosphere which relies on everything else to servive.

For instance there is a pond in the house i live (it was here when we moved in) and i was worried about mosquetos. So how do you stop them breeding? I bough gold fish to put in the pond and havent had a problem. I use the same principle with all my life, even down to my pets. My marine tank uses a biosphere atitude so that the only things i put in are fresh water and food and if i get a big enough tank with the sump i want the only things i will have to feed are the big fish (i dont want my fish eatten but i do want to grow plankton to feed the corals and little fish). By doing this i never have to replace the salt water either because everything is being broken down and used in the tank which saves me money. I recently tested my marine tank water (havent taken any water out for more than 6 months) and the amonia, nitrites, nitrates, phosphates ect were all Zero.

Some people DO take this atitude to far (im not going to eat sheeps balls just so that every part of a sheep is used) but it is quite useful. For instance when i do water changes in the tropical tank, that waste water becomes the perfect fertiliser for my plants because it already has phosphates and nitrates in it (you cant break down NO2 in a tropical tank, only in marine).

Its all in your atitude i guess, if you dont grow up in that "guns are good" mentality and learn about what you grow or raise then you can reuse most of your waste. My parents keep chickens and they get all the food scraps and mum and dad get free eggs and fertiliser for there garden. They also let the chickens into the veg garden in the off season and they scrach around digging up the soil, eating the incects and fertilising it so that when they replant the garden its all healthy again.

Very well done, indeed. See? You are improving...

Sigh.. ok.
I'm going to stop discussing about this. It'll go nowhere anyway.
Besides, I just wanted to hear arguments :)

There could be lots of reasons, people are lasy is one reason. You can also get higher crop yelds when you dont worry about companion plantings and encoraging good incects and just use pecticides though i dont think the quality is as good. As for hunting, the "people have always done it so why should we stop" mentality permiates certain area's.

Personally i think killing animals without using them is the highest level of abuse and bloodlust possable. I used to have a friend who went goat hunting yet he never brought the meat back to eat. Yes feral animals can out compeat natives and there is good reason to cull them but there are also uses for the meat (goat meat is delicious) yet all he wanted was a pair of horns. I dont have a problem with fishing except for those people who just do it to put the fish on the wall (no problem with catch and releace or bringing them home for dinner). These people are one of the reasons fish stocks are so low and it effects not only that species but all the others as well because the oceans and water ways are a biosphere which relies on everything else to servive.

For instance there is a pond in the house i live (it was here when we moved in) and i was worried about mosquetos. So how do you stop them breeding? I bough gold fish to put in the pond and havent had a problem. I use the same principle with all my life, even down to my pets. My marine tank uses a biosphere atitude so that the only things i put in are fresh water and food and if i get a big enough tank with the sump i want the only things i will have to feed are the big fish (i dont want my fish eatten but i do want to grow plankton to feed the corals and little fish). By doing this i never have to replace the salt water either because everything is being broken down and used in the tank which saves me money. I recently tested my marine tank water (havent taken any water out for more than 6 months) and the amonia, nitrites, nitrates, phosphates ect were all Zero.

Some people DO take this atitude to far (im not going to eat sheeps balls just so that every part of a sheep is used) but it is quite useful. For instance when i do water changes in the tropical tank, that waste water becomes the perfect fertiliser for my plants because it already has phosphates and nitrates in it (you cant break down NO2 in a tropical tank, only in marine).

Its all in your atitude i guess, if you dont grow up in that "guns are good" mentality and learn about what you grow or raise then you can reuse most of your waste. My parents keep chickens and they get all the food scraps and mum and dad get free eggs and fertiliser for there garden. They also let the chickens into the veg garden in the off season and they scrach around digging up the soil, eating the incects and fertilising it so that when they replant the garden its all healthy again.

Asguard, I appreciate your long reply.
Sadly, I have to go now. I'll reply tomorrow :)

Why are bunnies worth less than humans ?
Is that a serious question? I'd gladly kill every bunny in existence to save the life of one child.

Mad i assume he is coming from the position that yes it might be nessary to kill said bunny but if its NOT nessay then why should randomly killing said bunny be less of a crime than randomly killing said child.

I could be wrong about that of corse. If its a direct comparision (ie This child or this bunny dies) then yes i agree with you but if you have said child sitting in a park and said bunny sitting in a park with no need to kill either of them then from an ethical stand point both killings are equally un nessary and there for equally wrong

There could be lots of reasons, people are lasy is one reason. You can also get higher crop yelds when you dont worry about companion plantings and encoraging good incects and just use pecticides though i dont think the quality is as good. As for hunting, the "people have always done it so why should we stop" mentality permiates certain area's.

Personally i think killing animals without using them is the highest level of abuse and bloodlust possable. I used to have a friend who went goat hunting yet he never brought the meat back to eat. Yes feral animals can out compeat natives and there is good reason to cull them but there are also uses for the meat (goat meat is delicious) yet all he wanted was a pair of horns. I dont have a problem with fishing except for those people who just do it to put the fish on the wall (no problem with catch and releace or bringing them home for dinner). These people are one of the reasons fish stocks are so low and it effects not only that species but all the others as well because the oceans and water ways are a biosphere which relies on everything else to servive.

For instance there is a pond in the house i live (it was here when we moved in) and i was worried about mosquetos. So how do you stop them breeding? I bough gold fish to put in the pond and havent had a problem. I use the same principle with all my life, even down to my pets. My marine tank uses a biosphere atitude so that the only things i put in are fresh water and food and if i get a big enough tank with the sump i want the only things i will have to feed are the big fish (i dont want my fish eatten but i do want to grow plankton to feed the corals and little fish). By doing this i never have to replace the salt water either because everything is being broken down and used in the tank which saves me money. I recently tested my marine tank water (havent taken any water out for more than 6 months) and the amonia, nitrites, nitrates, phosphates ect were all Zero.

Some people DO take this atitude to far (im not going to eat sheeps balls just so that every part of a sheep is used) but it is quite useful. For instance when i do water changes in the tropical tank, that waste water becomes the perfect fertiliser for my plants because it already has phosphates and nitrates in it (you cant break down NO2 in a tropical tank, only in marine).

Its all in your atitude i guess, if you dont grow up in that "guns are good" mentality and learn about what you grow or raise then you can reuse most of your waste. My parents keep chickens and they get all the food scraps and mum and dad get free eggs and fertiliser for there garden. They also let the chickens into the veg garden in the off season and they scrach around digging up the soil, eating the incects and fertilising it so that when they replant the garden its all healthy again.

Aye, thanks. I have a sneaking suspicion a lot of it stems from ignorance or stupidity though.
Also, I suspect most people have some sort of superiority syndrome..
I am serious.

Is that a serious question? I'd gladly kill every bunny in existence to save the life of one child.

Mad i assume he is coming from the position that yes it might be nessary to kill said bunny but if its NOT nessay then why should randomly killing said bunny be less of a crime than randomly killing said child.

I could be wrong about that of corse. If its a direct comparision (ie This child or this bunny dies) then yes i agree with you but if you have said child sitting in a park and said bunny sitting in a park with no need to kill either of them then from an ethical stand point both killings are equally un nessary and there for equally wrong

That's exactly what I meant Asguard :)
There is a deeper level to it though, but we would have to slip into another endless discussion on the existence of objective value etc.