Jerusalem Post Editorial: Kill Arafat
Thu Sep 11 2003 22:11:57 ET

The world will not help us; we must help ourselves. We must kill as many of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders as possible, as quickly possible, while minimizing collateral damage, but not letting that damage stop us. And we must kill Yasser Arafat, because the world leaves us no alternative.

No one seriously argues with the fact that Arafat was preventing Mahmoud Abbas, the prime minister he appointed, from combating terrorism, to the extent that was willing to do so. Almost no one seriously disputes that Abbas on whom Israel, the US, and Europe had placed all their bets failed primarily because Arafat retained control of much of the security apparatus, and that Arafat wanted him to fail.

The new prime minister, Ahmed Qurei, clearly will fare no better, since he, if anything, has been trying to garner more power for Arafat, not less. Under these circumstances, the idea of exiling Arafat is gaining currency, but the standard objection is that he will be as much or more of a problem when free to travel the world than he is locked up in Ramallah.

If only three countries Britain, France, and Germany joined the US in a total boycott of Arafat this would not be the case. If these countries did not speak with Arafat, it would not matter much who did, and however much a local Palestinian leader would claim to consult with Arafat, his power would be gone.

But such a boycott will not happen. Only now, after more than 800 Israelis have died in three years of suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks, has Europe finally decided that Hamas is a terrorist organization. How much longer will it take before it cuts off Arafat? Yet Israel cannot accept a situation in which Arafat blocks any Palestinian break with terrorism, whether from here or in exile. Therefore, we are at another point in our history at which the diplomatic risks of defending ourselves are exceeded by the risks of not doing so.

Such was the case in the Six Day War, when Israel was forced to launch a preemptive attack or accept destruction. And when Menachem Begin decided to bomb the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981. And when Israel launched Operation Defensive Shield in Palestinian cities after the Passover Massacre of 2002. In each case, Israel tried every fashion of restraint, every plea to the international community to take action that would avoid the need for "extreme" measures, all to no avail. When the breaking point arrives, there is no point in taking half-measures. If we are going to be condemned in any case, we might as well do it right.

Arafat's death at Israel's hands would not radicalize Arab opposition to Israel; just the opposite. The current jihad against us is being fueled by the perception that Israel is blocked from taking decisive action to defend itself.

Arafat's survival and power are a test of the proposition that it is possible to pursue a cause through terror and not have that cause rejected by the international community. Killing Arafat, more than any other act, would demonstrate that the tool of terror is unacceptable, even against Israel, even in the name of a Palestinian state. Arafat does not just stand for terror, he stands for the refusal to make peace with Israel under any circumstances and within any borders.

In this respect, there is no distinction, beyond the tactical, between him and Hamas. Europe's refusal to utterly reject him condemns Palestinians, no less than Israelis, to endless war and dooms the possibility of the two-state solution the world claims to seek.

While the prospect of a Palestinian power vacuum is feared by some, the worst of all worlds is what exists now: Terrorists attack Israel at will under the umbrella of legitimacy provided by Arafat. Hamas would not be able to fill a post-Arafat vacuum; on the contrary, Hamas would lose the cover it has today.

A word must be said here about the most common claim made by those who would not isolate Arafat, let alone kill him: that he is the elected leader of the Palestinian people. Even if Arafat was chosen in a truly free election (when does his term end?), which we would dispute, this does not close the question of his legitimacy.

Whom the Palestinians choose to lead them is none of our business, provided it is a free choice, and provided they do not opt for leaders who choose terror and aggression. So long as the Palestinians choose such a leadership, it should be held no more immune to counterattack by Israel than the Taliban and Saddam Hussein were by the United States.

We complain that a double standard is applied to us, and it is. But we cannot complain when we apply that double standard to ourselves. Arafat's survival, under our watchful eyes, is living testimony to our tolerance of that double standard. If we want another standard to be applied, we must begin by applying it ourselves.

funny how some keep saying that killing or exiling him will "inflame the middle east" and "fuel a rise in terrorism"
u know what, they're already killing us non stop.
the IDF is stopping 15 out of every 16 suicide bombers.

it can't get any worse than it already is...
i say kill him

so he'll become one of the biggest "martyrs" in history for the arabs / muslims

but at least it will give that stupid "road map" a chance to move forward

Are you an Israeli, otheadp?

If you really want peace, you should start with Sharon...in whatever manner you feel comfortable.

Last I heard there is a war crimes court in Belgium that would like to talk to Sharon. See you wouldn't even have to get blood on your hands...although blood doesn't seem to bother the right wing much.

Originally posted by Galt
Are you an Israeli, otheadp?

i wasn't born there but i grew up there and i have citizenship

Originally posted by Jagger
If you really want peace, you should start with Sharon...in whatever manner you feel comfortable.

Last I heard there is a war crimes court in Belgium that would like to talk to Sharon. See you wouldn't even have to get blood on your hands...although blood doesn't seem to bother the right wing much.

That is hilarious that they indict Sharon, but Arafat does no wrong. Arafat is a terrorist to the core. I would say the double standard is with the EU. Those indicting Sharon are the same that would go after Bush, if they could. That war crimes court is a complete joke, they could hardly do anything with Milosevic, let alone fight their way out of a paper bag.

Originally posted by otheadp
i wasn't born there but i grew up there and i have citizenship

Do you live there now?

Belgium is in the process of drastically changing this law or even sacking it completely. it got them in pretty hot diplomatic water. actually more like boiling water...especially with the US.

Galt:
no. i live in Canada. my parents moved here so i won't have to serve in the army. i was too young to say anything about it...:(

Originally posted by otheadp
no. i live in Canada. my parents moved here so i won't have to serve in the army. i was too young to say anything about it...:(

Are you going to move back to Israel and serve in the IDF when you're an adult?

There was a pundit on the TV show "Tough Crowd" who said the roadmap, starts at Arafat's grave marker.

I along with the rest of the audience seem to agree with that opinion.

No progress will be made in the peace process before Arafat goes to stand before his maker.

he's been the leader for decades... there's still no peace.

Originally posted by Galt
Are you going to move back to Israel and serve in the IDF when you're an adult?

page me and i'll tell you... unless this is part of the discussion

Originally posted by truth
The world will not help us; we must help ourselves. Isn’t that what Jews have been doing all of their existence and got them expelled? The way Jews help themselves its intimidating!
And we must kill Yasser Arafat, because the world leaves us no alternative.The world gives you the alternative of establishing your little State without violating the habitants of Palestinian. The Zionist intentions and hidden agenda on Palestine, were evil from the beginning and we are wondering why it isn’t working.
No one seriously argues with the fact that Arafat was preventing Mahmoud Abbas.I seriously argue that in addition to Arafat, it was also Bush and Sharon by trying to use
Abbas in making Arafat “irrelevant”. But with all the defects that Arafat has, it is the Palestinian people that don’t make Arafat irrelevant. Bush and Sharon underestimate the
Will of the Palestinians. If only three countries Britain, France, and Germany joined the US.Impossible! Some of those countries can not be bias and they must govern to public opinion, that same public that elected them. Only now, after more than 800 Israelis have died in three years of suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks,.Yes and Sad, but the several thousand Palestinians dead, it is also the Israeli terrorism. Arafat's death at Israel's hands would not radicalize Arab opposition to Israel; just the opposite. Oh yeah! That’s an extremely shortsighted assumption. Arafat represents the Palestinian cause and straggle for their right in their own homeland. He is more a symbol then a person. If he is murdered, than the Bib Laden mythology will look like a kindergarten in comparison to what will be unleashed.…a cause through terror and not have that cause rejected by the international community.

The international community expressed rejection to Terrorist attacks in same manner as it has rejected and condemn Israelis killings and violations of human rights. Like the hammas, Israel also prefers the way of the gun. Killing for killing and neither side will ever run out of munitions. Arafat's survival, under our watchful eyes, is living testimony to our tolerance.Bullshit! It is more under the watchful eye of World Community for what Israel cannot do anything except to crucify itself by murdering a people’s leader and a Peace price holder.

Those in Israel advocating for murdering as a solution while they’re occupying a foreign land, are not better then Hammas.

This must be fueled by the frustration of the inabillity to prevent the continous suicide bombings (sorry. bomb attacks, editor) by palestines (sorry, arafats henchmen, editor) i think....

Clearly the situation can't get any worse, so why not kill Arafat?

I mean these suicide bombings continue with or without Arafat right?

I can see the logic behind that. But will it pave the way for a modest palestine to come to power or will it pave the way for hamas to take control ? And if so, isn't that what sharon wants to be able to be able to fight a full scale war without having one hand tied behind his back by some flaky american roadmap to peace?

Like nico said, we are on a roadmap to war. Go ahead, build that wall, strike any palestine with organising capabillity (kill the leader and the baboons will run back to the trees right?) and take out the iranian nuclear facillities in the process, things can't get any worse so they only can get better....

It would be interesting to see how this plays out...

I am starting to believe that these bible/koranthumpers indeed lack the flexibillity to work something out peacefully, so they better get it over with in a good hard fight, leaving only one man standing,they have been bothering the whole world with their stupid games for too long now...

truth :

Why are you copy/pasting entire articles ?

Why do you not link the source ?

Why isnt this deleted/moderated ?

Otheadp funny how some keep saying that killing or exiling him will "inflame the middle east" and "fuel a rise in terrorism"
u know what, they're already killing us non stop.
the IDF is stopping 15 out of every 16 suicide bombers.

it can't get any worse than it already is...
i say kill him

so he'll become one of the biggest "martyrs" in history for the arabs / muslims

but at least it will give that stupid "road map" a chance to move forward

No it wouldnt and you will be witness of it . Thousands have gathered around Muqata and thousands will oppose the attack violently .

A power vacuum would be created that would rather go into extremicy than moderacy because of the anger caused by the action , forget about any roadmaps if Arafat is no longer there because of zionist violence .

They arent already killing you non-stop they are playing tit tat for the sake of symbolical retalliation , these are fully psychological wars where hardly any physical damage is being done .

That is what could be changed , but again that is exactly what Israel wants : an extremist peoples threatning Israels souvereignity is the perfect pretext for seizing complete controll of territories followed by ethnic cleansement so it can be fully Jewish through settlements , thus expaniding the zionist nation .

Belgium is in the process of drastically changing this law or even sacking it completely. it got them in pretty hot diplomatic water. actually more like boiling water...especially with the US.


Where are you making this up ? Its international court not Belgian law , and the US ? Lmao you got to be joking me , US opposes actions against Sharon ? A MIRACLE !!

truth That is hilarious that they indict Sharon, but Arafat does no wrong. Arafat is a terrorist to the core. I would say the double standard is with the EU. Those indicting Sharon are the same that would go after Bush, if they could. That war crimes court is a complete joke, they could hardly do anything with Milosevic, let alone fight their way out of a paper bag.

What has its status to do with any crimes Sharon or Bush are responsible of ? Would the non-existance of the court mean non-existance of the crimes ? Who the fuck are you kidding man that ape and his inbred family from texas has murdered thousands Iraqi's and Afghanis and they would all be innocent ?

biblethumper : I along with the rest of the audience seem to agree with that opinion.

Another big surprsise

No progress will be made in the peace process before Arafat goes to stand before his maker.

Martydom of Arafat shows that the time has come to shift the objective toward the destruction of Israel instead of any Palestinian state .

VortexI am starting to believe that these bible/koranthumpers indeed lack the flexibillity to work something out peacefully

Im sorry but in Palestine many "bible-koran thumpers" stand on the same side , which celarly shows the irellevance of the entire religious identification that has been given to the Palestinian resistance , aside of the fact that its simply not correct .

It is not Hamas/Islamic Jihad VS zionists . It is thePalestinians of EVERY religious affiliation that is in the position of war against zionism . As for them , aside of the modern-age haredi-zionism (amazing) and Christian zionism , the movement has always been very secular if not atheist , moreover its roots rely in the conscious cultural and religious rejection of Judaism .

they have been bothering the whole world with their stupid games for too long now...

Maybe we should make a Palestinian state in the Palestinian ancient home the netherlands and start those silly games with you Dutchies for some time what do you think of that Vortex ?

And they only bother your Western representation of the world dont think Hutu's give a shit for any Mid-East conflict . And quite frankly........ the West has been bothering the Arab world with their colonialism and their "free market" exploitation ideologies and their cold wars while kicking in some psychotic cult of Hebrew impersonators that has become the strongest nuclear state in the entire region .

So shit man stop crying how "your world" is bothered somuch , shut off your tv-set and stop reading the topics here about it .

US opposes actions against Sharon ? A MIRACLE !!
not against sharon. against its troops.

israel's mistake re: killing/exiling arafat, is that they're so public about it. they make one statement and it wakes up some nationalistic pride in palestinians. i.e. "our dear leader is threatened". it's not because they love him so much, it's because "israel dares to threaten YASSIR."

if israel wants to do something about this piece of smelly shit, just do it covertly without making a big fuss about it right before you do it.

all this talk is turning arafat into somebody relevant... which is the opposite of what israelis want. or maybe... maybe that's their plan all along?

they won't deal with arafat so as long as he's in power there will be no progress.. hmm.. sounds like an evil zionist plan to me.

"What has its status to do with any crimes Sharon or Bush are responsible of ? Would the non-existance of the court mean non-existance of the crimes ? Who the fuck are you kidding man that ape and his inbred family from texas has murdered thousands Iraqi's and Afghanis and they would all be innocent ?"

More objectivity, eh, Ghassan?
:rolleyes:

truth :

More objectivity, eh, Ghassan?

Either show me what facts have been twisted because of my subjectivism in order not to call it objective any longer or hold your meaningless comments to yourself .

Othead :

it's not because they love him so much, it's because "israel dares to threaten YASSIR."

How about because Israel undermines any Palestinian souvereignity and decides who they find fit to talk to and who they find fit to kill independant of the Palestinian wishes the person in question REPRESENTS !

they won't deal with arafat so as long as he's in power there will be no progress.. hmm.. sounds like an evil zionist plan to me.

Its a cheap and old rhetorical trick to demonize sarcastically your own intentions , it has no meaning whatsoever .

But if you wish to know a logical understanding of making a fuss about Arafats expelling , will make Arafat and the PA shit their pants and appoint someone who can have controll of the security forces (as Abbas wanted) to take care of Hamas thus lead Palestine into civil war .

And yes the fus itself is quite a deal because having Arafat die a martyr would extremize Palestinian resistance and the PA would fall apart making the religious militants that are already denounced as terrorists , the main representatives of the Palestinian peoples : this to Arik is an invitation to ethnic cleanse .

Israels days are numbered...2020 is not that far down the line.....from NY Times editorial.

The problem with a belief in brute force is that someday the other guy might have the brute force. And I suspect the Palestinians may start thinking of payback when they get that hobnailed boot off their neck.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/12/opinion/12FRI1.html

........more before........quote.......

The real argument lies in the demographics, which become crushingly clear for a state that seeks to define itself as Jewish. There are 3.2 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, with an annual growth rate of 4.2 percent, among the highest in the world. Because of impressive medical gains over the last 30 years, the infant mortality rate among Palestinians has dropped to 20 per thousand, from 70 per thousand.

In Israel itself, there are 1.3 million Arabs and 5.4 million Jews. This means that the number of Jews and Arabs living between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River — in Israel and the occupied lands — is approaching parity. By 2020, Jews will be a minority. The longer Israelis continue to settle in the West Bank and Gaza, the harder it will be to cleanly divide the land between two nations with separate identities. Talk of two states will end. Two options will remain: an apartheid state run by a heavily armed Jewish minority, or a new political entity without a Jewish identity.

The conclusion is clear. Israel must begin to plan its exit from the West Bank and Gaza not only to permit the creation of a viable, contiguous Palestinian state but to preserve its own future. Polls show that most Israelis understand. They do not want to drain their treasury and lose their children to protect West Bank settlements. At the Democratic presidential debate on Tuesday night, Senator Joseph Lieberman criticized former Gov. Howard Dean for calling on Israel to dismantle most of its settlements. "That's up to the parties in their negotiations, not for us to tell them," the senator said.

We strongly disagree. True support for Israel means helping it see through its pain and rage to its own best interest. You do not have to believe in Mr. Arafat's sincerity or the Palestinians' good will to grasp the need for a radical course shift. You need only understand the meaning of self-preservation.

I say just exile Arafat to the Falkland Islands... those little islands between South America and Antarctica. People live there but I doubt many would be supporters.

Arafat says they are going to Jerusalem as martyrs. He says we, but somehow I think it will be someone else. I'd sure love to have him do it.:D For the article click the link.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,97200,00.html

Before you fantasize about the locations you can send him to fantasize how you are going to make him go there .

Do you have any capacity to imagine implications of such a situation at all ?

How will you deal with the crowd ? Kill it ? How will you deal with a refusing Arafat ? Kill him ?

That means no exile so forget about the location .

arafat has more of right to be there than any israeli

Wait until he lets his guard down and then use a few well placed tranquilizer darts? A big insane crowd never stays coherent for long.

A 74 year old man who has made the Palestinian struggle his personal struggle for decades will not leave Palestinian soil through other ways than Martyrdom .

Your bear-hunting fantasees wont change that , there is nothing for him outside of Palestine he will be martyred there if Israel acts on its decision .

Martyr? So hes going to blow his own brains out? Maybe we can make him jump the gun without any big losses. He can remove himself from the equation.

Or someone could allways speed natural processes along. There are any number of compounds that can cause a heart attack and some leave no trace. Expose him to malaria? Thats pretty common.

I saw the thread here and I couldn't resist but read it knowing that this thread is basically the microcosm that Israel and Palestine are living in. All this makes me wonder how the world is so tolerant to a religion that has holy wars and martyrdom practically built into it's religious writings. Clearly, neither side is free from fault. However, if the Muslim world wants non-Muslims to see their side more clearly, I think they are going to have to revise their willingness to use religion as a protective cover for killing. Israel has also taken part in the killing (it's clear that every country has at some point or the other), but it is easier for non-Muslims to understand the killing of innocent bystanders when the main target is terrorists. This in no way says that killing in any form is great. These statements of mine say more to the possibility of less killing if the Palestinians take the first step to reign in terrorists (who are a minority) allowing Israel to diminish their attacks on terrorists. If there were no more suicide bombings would Israel "terrorize" Palestinian people as many Muslims argue? If Israel takes such a stance, then that is another issue to resolve. Maybe some people in this forum with more background on this issue can provide me evidence that Israel would be an aggressor even after the terrorists attacks against Israel cease?

Martyr? So hes going to blow his own brains out? Maybe we can make him jump the gun without any big losses.

A Martyr does not mean one blows his own brains out , a maryr means to have died in a righteous struggle .

If the IDF will come in his forces and his peoples will fight and eventually many including Arafat will be killed .

There are any number of compounds that can cause a heart attack and some leave no trace. Expose him to malaria? Thats pretty common.

You have a vivid imagination however its of little use when everything is ceiled of and guarded , while being surrounded by a human shield .

The death of Arafat will come with a price

All this makes me wonder how the world is so tolerant to a religion that has holy wars and martyrdom practically built into it's religious writings.

And you would be a good judge of that since you can surely read modern Arabic nevermind Qu'ranic , no ?

You know shit about this "religion" so I suggest you keep yourself at regarding the television and yelling oohs and aahs whenever something moves acros it instead of arguing Islamic writings .

And who is "the world" , the West ?

Please..

Clearly, neither side is free from fault.

Clearly , the question is between the occupying invador and the occupied defender .

However, if the Muslim world wants non-Muslims to see their side more clearly, I think they are going to have to revise their willingness to use religion as a protective cover for killing.

The Christian Palestinians are doing that already but somehow nobody even knows they exist .

I do agree religion should get a new meaning , interestingly enough the majority of the Palestinian militant machine is highly secular .

I think rather that the west should try to refrain itself from trying to translate Arabic words they hear into western "acceptable" concepts that are not of their concern .

Israel has also taken part in the killing (it's clear that every country has at some point or the other)

Im sorry but not every other country is formed out of lunatic racists who think they're some ancient race followed by ethnic cleansement of hundreds thousands of native inhabitants .

but it is easier for non-Muslims to understand the killing of innocent bystanders when the main target is terrorists.

Its not easier for non-Muslims , its easier for Westerners as they operate from an ethical code relying on intention . This ethical theory however is absolutely pathetic as it doesnt regard the actual results .

These statements of mine say more to the possibility of less killing if the Palestinians take the first step to reign in terrorists (who are a minority) allowing Israel to diminish their attacks on terrorists.

Who are the terrorists then if they are minority ? Are the Al Aqsa Martyrs brigades not terrorist according to you ? If they are , as they are a military wing of Fatah which is Arafats movement , should they then commit suicide to pelase Israel ?

The resistance is highly praised by the Palestinians , weither the resistanc is called Islamic Jihad or Hamas or anyother , it is their actions that are praised as they are in defence of the Palestinian peoples against the zionist occupation .

If there were no more suicide bombings would Israel "terrorize" Palestinian people as many Muslims argue?

Sucide bombings started in 1994 , what happened untill then ? Did Israel behave correctly ? No because they cannot behave correctly in the state they are in , which is aggresive and collonial and that is the state they were born in .

Maybe some people in this forum with more background on this issue can provide me evidence that Israel would be an aggressor even after the terrorists attacks against Israel cease?

Read the following thread and see why Israel only acts as is natural for them to act :

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28025

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/arru.jpg

I would have put the dynamite somewhere else but I'll second that motion.

If that were published in canada it would be considered a hate crime and a death threat, and there would be jail time for the perpetrators.

Originally posted by Clockwood
Martyr? So hes going to blow his own brains out? Maybe we can make him jump the gun without any big losses. He can remove himself from the equation.

Or someone could allways speed natural processes along. There are any number of compounds that can cause a heart attack and some leave no trace. Expose him to malaria? Thats pretty common.

Your quite the sadistic little fuck, aren't you? Where's all this hatred come from I wonder?

Originally posted by CuriousGene
However, if the Muslim world wants non-Muslims to see their side more clearly, I think they are going to have to revise their willingness to use religion as a protective cover for killing. Israel has also taken part in the killing (it's clear that every country has at some point or the other), but it is easier for non-Muslims to understand the killing of innocent bystanders when the main target is terrorists.

Wow, speak for yourself there buddy. It's dishonest to make false statements on behalf others. Most people I know would totally disagree with you, and these are christian and atheist Americans mostly.

Originally posted by otheadp
no. i live in Canada. my parents moved here so i won't have to serve in the army. i was too young to say anything about it...:(

These are the kind of immigrants I hate. The stupid ones who leach off a succesful western country , and keep a seperate identity from that country. If you live in canada now, you should be forced(if I were in charge) to think of yourself AS A CANADIAN, and not an Israeli or whatever. But unfortunately for canadians, the governing liberal party gets about 90% of immigrant votes, so it is encouraging record levels of immigration. I'm glad I moved out of that mess.

Can you link to the original source? Is this even real, I can't find it on thier website anywhere.

I think your line of argument is unproductive. You say I can't speak for others too? We live in a world where people with similar views speak out for one another. I think the view I hold does represent a solid subpopulation. In fact, if you say what I am doing is wrong, haven't you commited the same act by saying the following?:
Most people I know would totally disagree with you, and these are christian and atheist Americans mostly.

Or would you argue that you hold some of the same beliefs as this subpopulation you are referring to and are expressing the view based on their behalf? The answer is you just did that with the statement I quoted from you. I don't think there is anything wrong about speaking out and explaining a view held in common by myself and many others.

Originally posted by CuriousGene
In fact, if you say what I am doing is wrong, haven't you commited the same act by saying the following?:


No I did not. You spoke, falsely, for a very large group of which you cannot possibly know the opinions, while I spoke for a small and specific group, people whom I know personally, and know their opinions.

Next time you wish to express YOUR opinion, portray it as such.

Originally posted by Chaosin
Your quite the sadistic little fuck, aren't you? Where's all this hatred come from I wonder?

I can't disagree with you there. I would have to say that a lot of this comes from having wrongs done to me but being left without any way to prevent them or to strike back. This has left me a rather bitter man. I also tend to take the position that if someone tries to throw a metaphorical rock at you you throw an even bigger metaphorical rock at them.

Oh, and 9-11 didn't help.

Chaosin, your arguments still do not preclude the fact that many people do share my views. Your argument that I have not met every person is simply trying to side-step my main points which are relevant and important. And yes, I am saying I believe it is relevant and important for others too. Maybe not you, but just because I speak out for a group of people in general doesn't mean I am wrong if you bring up cases of people who disagree. There are still people who agree.

You avoided my arguments in my previous post about how I think one can speak out for a group with similar views. You can pigeon hole your gripes all you want but your detracting from a relevant point I made regarding the middle east. Post something that speaks to the issue. So enough about your gripes of misrepresentation.

Vortexx wrote:

Clearly the situation can't get any worse, so why not kill Arafat?
Why not kill Arafat? Gosh, and there's the solution staring us in the face. Since they've not been able to come to an equitable agreement, they ought to just murder each other. I'm surprised no one in the Mid-East has thought of that plan sooner. :bugeye:

You ought to be ashamed of yourself, Vortexx. Your proposed solution is the moral equivalent of a crack-head's "drive-by" shooting of a rival gang leader. Do you honestly think that either the Israelis or the Palestinians will eventually kill their way to an equitable and lasting peace?

Would you explain why you think the situation can't get any worse? The situation gets worse with each new death, and a number of scenerios come to mind wherein the situation might escalate catastophically. Things can always get worse.

"We often see the vile held in highest honour." Lucretius

Michael

Originally posted by orthogonal
Vortexx wrote:


Why not kill Arafat? Gosh, and there's the solution staring us in the face. Since they've not been able to come to an equitable agreement, they ought to just murder each other. I'm surprised no one in the Mid-East has thought of that plan sooner.

with arafat gone, peace could come in 1-2 years instead of 10-20 (or until he finally croaks, inshallah)

Chaosin:
These are the kind of immigrants I hate. The stupid ones who leach off a succesful western country , and keep a seperate identity from that country.

"stupid ones"....explain.
"leach".... in what way?
i'm a tax paying citizen. so are my parents.
separate identity? canada is not like the US's melting pot.
everybody here is encouraged to be proud of their heritage.
although i'm not chest-banging Israeli. i'm both proud israeli and proud canadian

It's Arafat's fault. He's a terrorist. Not his Israeli (http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2003%20Opinion%20Editorials/June%202003%20Opinion/13o/Zionist%20Terrorism,%20Mark%20Franklin.htm) counterparts (http://www.counterpunch.org/sharon.html).

Get real. :bugeye:

otheadp wrote:
with arafat gone, peace could come in 1-2 years instead of 10-20 (or until he finally croaks, inshallah)
Doubtless, Palestinian kids of your age believe that Sharon is a similar impediment to peace. Yigal Amir thought he was making the world a better place when he murdered Yitzhak Rabin. Osama Bin Laden used the same thinking in his 9/11 attacks. GWB's stated aim is to make a better world - courtesy of superior American firepower.

On June 28, 1914, Gavrilo Princip murdered the Austrian Archduke Francis Ferdinand. From his prison cell, Princip reportedly said, "I suggest that you nail me to a cross and burn me alive. My flaming body will be a torch to light my people on their path to freedom." But Princip's actions were not a beacon to the path of freedom. I can imagine Princip thinking, "Clearly, the situation in Serbia can't get any worse, so why not kill Ferdinand? But having murdered Ferdinand, things got much worse. In fact, his crime sparked the First World War. In the following four years, nine million young men were butchered in this "War to End All Wars," of which Ezra Pound wrote in 1920:

There died a myriad,
And of the best, among them,
For an old bitch gone in the teeth,
For a botched civilization,

Charm, smiling at the good mouth,
Quick eyes gone under earth's lid...

William Manchester, a biographer of Winston Churchill, wrote that upon hearing news that the First World War had ended, Churchill, who was member of the Cabinet, made his way to Downing Street to congratulate the Prime Minister. Churchill interrupted the discussion of those gathered to say that the 'fallen foe' was close to starvation and that we ought to send, 'a dozen great ships crammed with provisions' to Hamburg, but the proposal was rejected out-of-hand. While Churchill’s proposal was being rejected, a twice decorated German non-commissioned dispatch runner, who had been temporarily blinded during a gas attack, sat in a German military hospital and heard of his country’s plight. Six years later that soldier wrote this:

"I knew that all was lost. Only fools, liars and criminals could hope for mercy from the enemy. In these nights hatred grew in me, hatred for those responsible for this deed….The more I tried to achieve clarity on the monstrous events in this hour, the more the shame of indignation and disgrace burned my brow. What was all the pain in my eyes compared to this misery? In the days that followed, my own fate became known to me….I resolved to go into politics."

Unfortunately, we all know what became of that non-commissioned dispatch runner. The Second World War would have been more appropriately named, The First World War, Part 2. The interim period simply allowed everyone to reload their weapons and sire the next generation of cannon-fodder. Had the British been able to step above their lust for revenge; had they listened to Churchill; had they reached out in compassion for their "fallen foe" in place of their demand for reparations, our recent history might have been far less bloody.

So it goes - there will always be those who think bullets and bombs, rather than patience and compassion, are the tools necessary to build a better civilization. But if murder and war pave the way to a better world, given that our history is replete with beheadings and bloodbaths, shouldn't we already be living in Utopia?

Michael

with arafat gone, peace could come in 1-2 years instead of 10-20

Time will prove you wrong as always Otheadp , it is interesting that you rather trust the words of Arik's revisionist right than of the peoples actually involved in establishing peace with Israel .

Tell me how there will be peace if the PA organization is decapitated and falls into militias , when the rage becomes 10 times as wors as is today , when Hamas has more and more opportunity to recrute fighters ?

Nobody on the Palestinian side and nobody on the Palestinian left would agree with this forecast of peace , why is it exactly that things will go the other way ? What road are they on , how does it go , tell us about it instead of hiding behind your Arik and agreeing with his words . Defend his words with logic iif you have any .

How will killing Arafat bring peace ?

I will tell you how it will bring peace for Arik . After Arafat is gone the PA falls apart , militias become invovled in a power struggle that has most like as a result that Hamas comes out #1 . This has a result that Arik will identifiy the entire Palestinian entitiy as Hamas , since Hamas will be the most representative one for it . This invites Arik to clear the area completely accoding to zionist tradition , and in 5 years from now Gaza & WB has a vast Jewish mahority and is called Israel . Thats how Arik will bring peace .

man, you gotta look at things case by case.

what if Osama or Hitler were killed a coupla years before they went into action?

No zionist in Germany would have desired to kill Hitler :rolleyes:

Instead of looking at something isolated and independant from its environment , for a more profound understanding of it you ought to understand its time and place within context .

Demonizing peoples who are in many ways of little difference with mosty politicians is rather sad , t shows an immature and subjective look at the situation .

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
with arafat gone, peace could come in 1-2 years instead of 10-20

Time will prove you wrong as always Otheadp , it is interesting that you rather trust the words of Arik's revisionist right than of the peoples actually involved in establishing peace with Israel .

Tell me how there will be peace if the PA organization is decapitated and falls into militias , when the rage becomes 10 times as wors as is today , when Hamas has more and more opportunity to recrute fighters ?

Nobody on the Palestinian side and nobody on the Palestinian left would agree with this forecast of peace , why is it exactly that things will go the other way ? What road are they on , how does it go , tell us about it instead of hiding behind your Arik and agreeing with his words . Defend his words with logic iif you have any .

How will killing Arafat bring peace ?

I will tell you how it will bring peace for Arik . After Arafat is gone the PA falls apart , militias become invovled in a power struggle that has most like as a result that Hamas comes out #1 . This has a result that Arik will identifiy the entire Palestinian entitiy as Hamas , since Hamas will be the most representative one for it . This invites Arik to clear the area completely accoding to zionist tradition , and in 5 years from now Gaza & WB has a vast Jewish mahority and is called Israel . Thats how Arik will bring peace .

you're putting way too much emphasis on the old toad.
have you heard? there's a PALESTINIAN GOV'T!
it's got ministers, a prime minister, security forces, etc.

let's say a sniper takes out arafat. what will happen? suicide bombings? been there, done that. what else can the terrorists bring on us that we haven't had yet?
ok, let's asume there's gonna be a big wave of terrorism for a month tops. but then they'll have to stop. dialogue is the only way to get out of this so they'll have to stop.

they will have an election to choose a new president, they'll form a gov't with a PM that has REAL powers with nobody to constantly bust his chops, and we can move forward.

this has been said so many times it sort of lost its meaning: "arafat is an obstacle to peace".
say this sentence out loud a few times and think about it.

you're putting way too much emphasis on the old toad.
have you heard? there's a PALESTINIAN GOV'T!
it's got ministers, a prime minister, security forces, etc.

Havent you heard ? PA consists basicly of Fatah-PLO , who has the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades as a military wing ? Remember those ?

What do you think the PA is man ? Some knesset ?

let's say a sniper takes out arafat. what will happen?

suicide bombings? been there, done that. what else can the terrorists bring on us that we haven't had yet?

Do you think the issue is what they can do to you ? It is not about what they can do to you , it is about the power-struggle that follows in the territories . Can you step outside of this immensly simplistic thinking for once ?

ok, let's asume there's gonna be a big wave of terrorism for a month tops. but then they'll have to stop. dialogue is the only way to get out of this so they'll have to stop.

Dialogue with who ? Hamas ? Who do you think the big winner is when Arafat dies ? You think Hamas now no longer exists because you killed 3 leaders ?

they will have an election to choose a new president, they'll form a gov't with a PM that has REAL powers with nobody to constantly bust his chops, and we can move forward.

You do actually think that they will vote , after the murder of Arafat , for someone who wants to have controll of the security forces to destroy Hamas ? I think they rather vote Hamas

this has been said so many times it sort of lost its meaning: "arafat is an obstacle to peace".
say this sentence out loud a few times and think about it.

This is like arguing with a 4 year old .

ARAFAT = OBSTACLE TO PEACE

LOOK AT HOW RIDICULOUS THAT IS !!!

For you to actually udnermine the wishes of the peopels , undermine the support of the resistance , and completely underminde Israels rol in this entire issue is so fucking juche beyond amazement , it is just beyond amazement .

Im sorry Othead , but I think you can come best to your potential as an intelligent human being if you sign up with the IDF tomorrow and start taking orders instead of having opinions or ideas .

You are a slave of ignorance

otheadp wrote:
what if Osama or Hitler were killed a coupla years before they went into action?
If the German Jews knew what was ahead of them, why did so few of them leave the country in 1933, following Hitler’s appointment as German chancellor? Similarly, who knew following the 1799 coup d'etat de Brumaire, that Napoleon’s rise would lead to the deaths of millions? I would also draw your attention to the fact that Sweden's Foreign Minister, Anna Lindh, was assassinated this past Thursday. Someone obviously believed that taking her life was less of a moral outrage than the harm that would have been done had she completed her term in office.

Since every politician has enemies - enemies who routinely predict dire consequences should their opponents assume office, then whom do we believe? How do we know a priori if we are dealing with likes of Adolph Hitler or Anna Lindh? The only certain way to stop all possible political crime is to assassinate all the politicians. Of course, one doesn't have to be a politician to perpetrate awful things; in which case, we ought to strongly consider killing everyone on this planet in order to prevent future crimes.

Otheadp, your solution of popping-off the bad guys ahead of their crimes is no solution. It's equivalent to telling me that it's easy to be a millionaire because all I need to do is pick six numbers on a lottery ticket. Yes, but which six numbers? If I knew the future to that detail then I wouldn't need a lottery ticket to become a millionaire.

If we were to adopt the Israeli practice of overt political assassination, where would we draw the line? Was Rabin's assassination over the line? Ortheadp, suppose you were to run for political office. Your opponent could simply put out the word among his supporters that you might be the next Hitler. Bang, you're dead. There will always be some eighteen year-old kid with a pistol and the determination to use his life "... to light my people on their path to freedom." But putting bullets into politicians ahead of their crimes is more risky than putting numbers on lottery tickets ahead of the drawing. Mark Twain wrote:

"I am an old man and have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened."

Who could know ahead of time that their bullet, knife, or bomb thwarted an Adolph Hitler or an Anna Lindh? It's my belief that Ariel Sharon, Yasar Arafat, Osama Bin Laden, and George W. Bush are all guilty of mass murder. In my vision of a just world, each one of these monsters would be held accountable for their individual crimes against humanity. But that's far different than suggesting that we strangle Bush Jr. in his cradle in order to prevent the possibility of his later murdering six thousand Iraqi civilians. It makes no sense to order a punishment ahead of the crime.

Michael

If the German Jews knew what was ahead of them, why did so few of them leave the country in 1933, following Hitler’s appointment as German chancellor?

The situation was a little bit more complicated than that . Not only were there different Jewish interests respectively for different Jewish groups , the possibilities they received within Germany depend on their idealogical interests .

Anti-Semitism (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=426288#post426288)

Final Solution (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=426289#post426289)

It's my belief that Ariel Sharon, Yasar Arafat, Osama Bin Laden, and George W. Bush are all guilty of mass murder. In my vision of a just world, each one of these monsters would be held accountable for their individual crimes against humanity.

That would be an objective solution I believe we can all agree on , however can we count on it that in the consideration quantity and geo-political positions will play roles as well ?

YOUR HOLOCAUST HAS ENDED. WHEN WILL OURS?
http://www.iwchildren.org/calif.htm


Islamic leaders, why are you so quiet?
US? Europe? The Big modern World?
Where you are all.

STOP hate, whoever you are.

:m: is Israel's dream, living side by side with her neighbours.
Yet it could never be done unless Terrorism is vanished.

Israel's dream, living side by side with her neighbours

No it is not Gill , I know and understand it is your dream , but it is not the dream of Israel . Face reality and change it if it is in your power and will , but stop denying .

Ghassan, what is your source of info?

I'm trying to be Optimistic. You can try it to sometimes.

We BOTH people\folks\nations (or how do you want to call it, I really don't care about your lies and misinformation) have the right to live in this land.

However, there are extremists in both sides that must be vanished.

Lets not play the questioning of knowledge game you end up on the loosing side .

Extremism is your necesary scapegoat , reality shows that it is the "moderacy" of masses that results in the ignorance necesarry to conduct autrocity acts .

Dont expect peace when you set claim on anothers land . Unless you face your history , your actions and your ideals , there can never be a true dialogue that considers peacefull co-existance .

Stop the Hebrew madness Gill , face reality if it is peace you are after .

There is no basis for peace on injustice , lies and blackmail .

Ghassan, now I see you live in Gaza.
Now iI realize how much close we live.

I want you to know that we aware to the suffer you are in every day (Hunger, Poor education, Military occupation and so). Our pain, yours and mine, must be OVER.
For that we first both act against the extremists. It can be done passively also. What I advice here is love.
You see by yourself that many of Isrealis have nowhere else to go. I read that during the last decade, Mein Kamphf was a best seller in Gaza. Ask me how could it happen, especially since we are all the sons of Abraham. I don't have an answer for this.


Now I want to ask you, what our leaders have really done for peace. Do you really want it deep in your heart?

I do. And I want you to know that most of the Isrealis think as the way I do.



:m:
Gil.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Lets not play the questioning of knowledge game you end up on the loosing side .


In war everybody loose.




Dont expect peace when you set claim on anothers land . Unless you face your history , your actions and your ideals , there can never be a true dialogue that considers peacefull co-existance .



After what happen in Europe and other Arab Nation, the Jewish have the right to claim a place for their own. Israel is well mentioned in the writings.
About facing our history, what do you mean precisely? what a part of it?




Stop the Hebrew madness Gill , face reality if it is peace you are after .

There is no basis for peace on injustice , lies and blackmail .

The Circle only has One Side.

and by the way, Arabic is studied in Israeli schools, and I agree that a one basis for the understanding is knowing each other languages.
And I guess you already know that our languages are very similiar.


Gil.

Why would anyone want anarchy in the P.A? Yasser has become a person who personalizes the Palestinian struggle against Zionism. I mean he hasn't created the cult of personality here like Stalin of Kim, but he is sufficent to rally the Pals. ppl for his very survival. To me it makes no sense to get rid of this man, sure he has done some bad things but so has Sharon. I mean if peace is ever to be created in the ME, you have to get rid of the two state solution into one all encompassing state. Neither Jewish, nor muslim, Yid, or Arab.

I have to say, Gil_W's perspective is what the extremists on both sides need a heavy dose of. Well said Gil_W, and I hope that peace on many levels will find the middle east.

Ghassan, now I see you live in Gaza.
Now iI realize how much close we live.

Do not be so fast to assume given information as reality , it shows the easyness in effords to deceive you .

But do realize that somebody indeed lives closeby in Gaza , realize that his or her "hobbies" are not "UFOs and aliens, healing, writing, Web Sites Design, Games: Tomb Raider, Max Payne and StarTopia" but "dodging bullits , hiding for tanks and hanging out at Hassans wall" .

For that we first both act against the extremists.

Untill you will face reality that it is not extremism but mass condoning of actions that leads to autrocities , nothing shall be achieved .

Mein Kamphf was a best seller in Gaza.

Mein Kampf was also a best seller among German Zionism .

I don't have an answer for this.

That is because you are affradi to face reality . Yes many Palestinians have come to hate the Jews . Ask yourself why Palestinian Christians have to come to hate the Jews as well . Ask yourself why this was not the case 100 years ago ? . Ask yourself , what link is there between ethnic cleansement and massmurder followed by occupation of refugeecamps and apartheid , and this hate carried for what they see as a Jew ?

Ask yourself , what business has an European like yourself in the land that was inhabited for centuries by others , chasing them out with violnece ?

Tell me

Do you really want it deep in your heart?

I dont want peace with my enemy , I only wnat peace with my friend . It is up to you to regard yourself , acknowledge your history and understand that an enemy you have always been . Not as a Jew , but as a zionist .

Ask yourself what you can do to change this hostile position , and then ask me for peace .

I do. And I want you to know that most of the Isrealis think as the way I do.

Im affraid most Israeli dont condone pacifism as do you , but I do believe most Israeli share your indoctrinated vision of the situation , for better or worse . Most Israeli do not regard themselves as hostile , most Israeli do not acknowledge their history and their responsibilities , and most Israeli consider themselves still entitled to another mans land .

I aks of you , when will it end ? When you have the territories ? When you have Damasq ? When you have Babylon ? When will you stop expanding and start recognizing your habitat is result of colonialism and ethnic cleansement .

When that they has come , you can come talk to me about peace and about being friends . Untill that day ZAHYUN , you are the enemy of Arabia and the enemy of Islam .

After what happen in Europe and other Arab Nation, the Jewish have the right to claim a place for their own. Israel is well mentioned in the writings.

About facing our history, what do you mean precisely? what a part of it?

You have the right to claim a placew of your own , you dont have the right to claim :

1) a place of your own in name of Judaism because not all Jews condone your claim , for the very reason that your claim is against everything Judaism stands for .

2) a place inhabited by others , a place others have been chased away from in violence for your needs .

That is your history , research it and acknowledge facts .

The Circle only has One Side.

and by the way, Arabic is studied in Israeli schools, and I agree that a one basis for the understanding is knowing each other languages.
And I guess you already know that our languages are very similiar.

The madness was not linguistic Gill , I am speaking about your Hebrew identity you have adapted , the claim on the land you have laid in relation to this identity .

Read your own history and acknowledge it . Lies wont get you peace EVER .

The Jewish Question (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27665)

The Palestinian Question (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28025)

Hello Ghassan,

You wrote:
The situation was a little bit more complicated than that . Not only were there different Jewish interests respectively for different Jewish groups , the possibilities they received within Germany depend on their idealogical interests.
Whenever humans are involved the situation is bound to be complicated. Any given statement about group-behavior represents a simplification of the facts. To speak about any group of humans necessarily ignores the details about the individuals that make-up the group. In some respect, all talk of group-behavior is a convenient fiction. There's an old joke that says the average person has one testicle and one breast. ;)

It's certainly correct that the Jewish response to the threat of German National Socialism can't be given in a single breath. I know that some Jewish intellectuals and scientists were able to leave before the door closed, but I'm rather ignorant of what must have been a wide range of individual responses to the Nazi terror. Inasmuch as European Jews were somewhat accustomed to periodic waves of anti-Semitism and pogroms aimed against them, I expect that many of them believed Hitler's flavor of anti-Semitism would make their lives uncomfortable, but not impossible.

GK wrote:
That would be an objective solution I believe we can all agree on , however can we count on it that in the consideration quantity and geo-political positions will play roles as well?
No, we only hope that whoever holds the power in this world does not exact too high a price on the rest of us. To quote from Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan,

"Auctoritas non veritas facit legem."
“Authority, not truth, makes the law."

What earthly authority could force George W. Bush to stand trial for his crimes? And as long as Bush backs Israel, the probability that Sharon will be made to answer for his part in the Jenin massacre approaches zero. Arafat, as always, is walking on a tightrope. Bin Laden, if he's still alive, will cease to be the moment he shows his face in the wrong place.

While I wish it were not true, it's a brute fact that the victors sit in judgement and the vanquished sit in the dock. During WW2 there was a famous first mission (Doolittle's Raider's) sent to bomb Japan. Some of these American aviators were captured and forced by the Japanese to stand trial for war crimes. After the Americans had won the war it was the American's turn to pass judgement over war crimes. Now, is it any wonder that the Americans would hold Japanese prison wardens responsible for the deaths of thousands of Allied POW's, yet somehow neglect to call President Harry Truman (yes, the very same,"The Buck Stops Here," Truman) to answer for his decision to incinerate hundreds of thousands of Japanese in incendiary and atomic bombing missions over civilian targets?

Is it also any wonder that the Americans would refuse to sign any multilateral agreement in which their soldiers might be made to answer for war crimes by an international tribunal? It doesn't come down to right or wrong. It simply comes down to this rhetorical question, "What are you gonna do about it?"

Such bullying is much to our liking as long as we're the bullies. But I'd remind my American brothers that up till a few years ago the Soviet Union was also a military superpower. It might be to our advantage to draw some lessons from their free-fall. If our military is all that stands between us, and a world seething in hatred against us, then we have good reason to worry.

I heard a South American writer interviewed on the radio this past week. He contrasted America with the South American Banana Republics with the observation that, at best, we simply elect our dictators. Of course, there's supposed to be checks and balances built into our system such that no one person has too much power. But what happens when both the U.S. House and Senate are controlled by one party; when the Supreme Court have largely been handpicked by that same party; and when the President of that party so effectively uses our fear to prop up his regime against the opposition? I wouldn't go so far as to call our present government an elective dictatorship, but there is clearly something very wrong here. I believe this next presidential election will be the most important that I've seen in my lifetime. The 2004 election will be a critical juncture not just for America, but for the entire world.

Michael

It's certainly correct that the Jewish response to the threat of German National Socialism can't be given in a single breath. I know that some Jewish intellectuals and scientists were able to leave before the door closed, but I'm rather ignorant of what must have been a wide range of individual responses to the Nazi terror. Inasmuch as European Jews were somewhat accustomed to periodic waves of anti-Semitism and pogroms aimed against them, I expect that many of them believed Hitler's flavor of anti-Semitism would make their lives uncomfortable, but not impossible.

Michael , Jewry within Germany from a political perspective was divided into mainly 2 camps that themselves had a religious devision . Very first was the division between assimilationism and zionism , of which assimilationism was divided into orthodoxy and secularity .

Zionism was handed (and took very willingly) the role of Jewish political athority within Germany , while this was not reflected upon the ideals of the actual Jewish peoples . The peoples were mostly very assimilationist and quite a great ammount had drifted away from a Jewish identity , oftenly the category resulted as being regarded "Mishlinge" (mix) by the Nazi's in their Nuremberg laws . I will elaborate in the future some more on this specific issue on my thread the Jewish question .

The role of anti-semitism had a very great part within the Zionist idfeology , and through their political power propaganda regarding this was very influential on the Jewish peoples . It dealt not in somuch that one was used to anti-semitism , but rather with the general acceptance of anti-semitic normality , which was enforced upon the peoples through the ethical approval of zionism had of it .

If you care to understand more of these relations within the Reich I strongly adive you to read the sections of
Anti-Semitism (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=426288#post426288) & Final Solution (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=426289#post426289) within the previously mentioned thread .

Dialogue with who ? Hamas ?
that would be practical. cause so far we've negotiated with the PA.... it's not the PA that attacks israel with suicide bombings (well the Aqsa Martyrs Brigades element does..but they stop when the PA tells them to) it's the Hamas and Jihad Islami

whatever accord israel reaches with the PA, the hamas will ignore it (as it always has)

shouldn't israel negotiate with those who attack her? the REAL power?
if the PA show they're able to restrain hamas then it'd be logical to talk to the PA. since there's no negotiation with terrorists, there is no negotiation with Hamas.
as for PA reigning in hamas butchers, it can be done. they are better armed than hamas. as for civil war, i hardly think there'll be one since everyday palestinians dont give a fuck about fighting their bretheren. all they wanna do is get on with their lives, make a living, etc.
when it comes to power vs. power, PA can do it.

you'd say "you want the PA to do israel's dirty work for them"... it's one way of looking at it. but the goal is to stop the extremists from hijacking the peace process.. to take away their veto power.. that's pretty much what they have. PA wants to do something, and hamas vetoes everything (as we've seen with the initial stages of the 'road map')


Orthogonal:
what are you saying?
that killing hitler in 1933 would NOT have saved millions from dying?
btw, the deceased Swedish foreign minister was not assassinated but attacked by some nutcase crackhead... or so it seems. she had no eccentric policies that would piss off her nation.

as for Sharon being a war criminal... would you mind listing the "war crimes" he committed?

Originally posted by otheadp
page me and i'll tell you... unless this is part of the discussion

I was just curious.

Hello otheadp,

You wrote:
what are you saying? that killing hitler in 1933 would NOT have saved millions from dying?
I'm saying that in 1933 no one could have known that killing Hitler would have saved millions of lives. If you had assasinated Hitler in 1933, his chief rival, Ernst Roehm (the leader of the Sturmabteilung or SA), might have assumed control. While Hitler might have had a genius for politics, he certainly was no military genius, and he was notorious for ignoring the advice of his Generals. The claim has been made that Hitler's blunders, more than anything else, lead to the defeat of Nazi Germany in 1945.

Roehm, on the other hand, had been an officer in WW1. It's entirely possible that he would have been more receptive to the advice of his staff officers. In other words, Germany under Roehm might been an even more formidable adversary. It's possible that under Roehm's command even more people would have died in WW2 (as it turned out, Hitler had Roehm executed in 1934). Even with the advantage of hindsight, we simply don't know what would have happened had Hitler been assassinated in 1933. Now, think how much more uncertain things would be to an assassin living in 1933! We can all agree that assassins change the course of history, but who can say how history would have otherwise unflolded?

You wrote:
... the deceased Swedish foreign minister was not assassinated but attacked by some nutcase crackhead... or so it seems.
Perhaps, but nothing about my argument hinges upon the fact that she was murdered rather than assasinated.

Your wrote:
as for Sharon being a war criminal... would you mind listing the "war crimes" he committed?
I didn't call Sharon a "war criminal" (indeed, that's another question). I said that it is my belief that Sharon is a "mass murderer." How many humans must one kill, with premeditation, in order to qualify as a mass murderer? Two, five, a dozen? Leaving the question of the Jenin massacre aside, how many times has Sharon ordered a missile assassination of a specific human riding in a car, only to end up killing the intended target's family and/or friends? Suppose, for the sake of argument, that you somehow have a moral right to assassinate a given person. Does this fact mean that you also have the right to kill anyone that happens to be riding in a car or standing in the same room with your intended target? Does this mean that you have the right to blow up a crowded resturant in which he was having his dinner? Of course not.

I believe Sharon is guilty of indiscriminate killing as well as discriminate killing. I think that Sharon should stand trial in an international court of law for his alleged crimes. If Sharon believed that I were guilty of the crimes that I think he is guilty, he might send a missile to destroy the car in which I and my family were riding. Do you see this difference, otheadp?

Michael

a general protecting his country and people is a mass murderer?
well then i guess George Washington was a mass murderer as well.

choose your linguistics carefully. killer != murderer != assasin != soldier

or is it equal?

the "jenin massacre" (again, by using the word 'massacre' you show where your opinion lies re: what happened) was no massacre, mister.
23 IDFers died,
and 55 arabs died (less than 10 of them non-combatants)

as for hitler, sure, nobody could have known killing him would save so many lives. but retrospectively, if we had a time machine and we went back and time to kill him, WW2 and the holocaust could have been prevented.

maybe Roehm's execution saved more lives.. who knows.
altho if Hitler hated him enough to execute him maybe he was the total opposite of Hitler? who knows

the "jenin massacre" (again, by using the word 'massacre' you show where your opinion lies re: what happened) was no massacre, mister.
23 IDFers died,
and 55 arabs died (less than 10 of them non-combatants)

Unfortunately, Israel refused to allow an independent UN team to enter Jenin to investigate the Jenin massacre.

So we really don't know what happened. And some may be foolish enough to take the Israeli governments word for what happened at Jenin but I am not one of them.

OtheadP

that killing hitler in 1933 would NOT have saved millions from dying?

Perhaps if Chaim Weizman (first Israeli pres) didnt declare in 1920 (4 years before Hitlers Mein Kampf !!!!!) that Germany had toomany Jews , the zionists could have anticipated on the disaster in a manner solidair with the Jewish people instead of zionist needs .

Allas , 1 year after Hitlers siege of power in 1934 the same Chaim Weizman declared that he would much rather see the annihilation of the Jews in Germany than failure to make Israel a land for the Jews .

It is pretty clear how the holocaust could have been dealt with differently or even prevented , other than through some assasination on Hitler .

Reb Moshe Shonfeld - The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/onlinebooks/Holocaust_Victims_Accuse.pdf)

In my opinion Arafat is the best hope for a peaceful Palestinian state; should Sharon succeed in murdering him Israel will enjoy 50 years just like the last 50 years.

Would anyone care to discuss Sharon's role in the massacres that occurred in the camps in Lebanon?

Originally posted by otheadp
shouldn't israel negotiate with those who attack her? the REAL power?

I am amazed by your progression , I think that although I strongly disagree with certain social and legislative actions of their supposed Islamic-Palestinian authority , I believe they are indeed the ones who should sit at the negotiation table in name of Palestine .

However this will not have the result of negotiating with the power as you would desire , because secular groups will maintain their position as resistance and most probablky extremize it from their position . This will mean the assaults wont no longer come from Hamas but from the various secular groups the PA would fall apart into . Since I am very happy with such a shift of positions I would applaud the change in negotiations you propose .

I do hope that you can be honest enough to yourself to admit the original Israeli incited function of Hamas (opposition against PLO) , leading to the immense increase in power for Hamas on a social scale (the donation and facilitation of schools etc by Israel) .

I hope that you then realize the representation hamas has been taking and will increase in continuing to take is not a natural development of true Palestinian representation , but a political consequence enforced by the enemy of the Palestinian peoples , Israel .

Ariks plan was the collapse of order when this transition arrives , and if its survives the complete demonization of the Palestinian authority creating a context of possibility for total war .

Dont be surprised if such a step will be taken by Israel , to propose Hamas as her new negotiator if after all this time still there is no progress within the Palestinian Authority to collapse due to internal conflict , if after a possible assaination of Arafat there is still no actual attempt of Hamas to take on the role as a leader itself .

Unfortunately, Israel refused to allow an independent UN team to enter Jenin to investigate the Jenin massacre.

So we really don't know what happened.

Oth .................... ?

Originally posted by candy In my opinion Arafat is the best hope for a peaceful Palestinian state; should Sharon succeed in murdering him Israel will enjoy 50 years just like the last 50 years.

Lets not forget that Arafat , like Rabin , have been under attack by their own (in a broad sense) for establishing peace .

You are very right in your expectations , Martyrdom of Arafat will ensure that no peace with Israel will be made for the next century to come .

And if the mind of the Palestinian youth of today and tomorrow is considered , along with the demographic weight , we could predict the next big in some 10 years from now at most .

Would anyone care to discuss Sharon's role in the massacres that occurred in the camps in Lebanon?

UN report on Jenin massacre flawed (http://www.abc.net.au/correspondents/s639418.htm)

Jenin Massacre of April 2002 (http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51a/index-d.html)

Video RP : Witnesses of the Massacre Speak (http://www.freespeech.org/fsitv/ramfiles/fstvnews061602.ram)

Pictures (http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/04/16916.php)

http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/uploads/jenin1dc04500.jpg http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/uploads/jenin_10.jpg6sxk1l.jpg http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/uploads/jenin_5.jpg08xqw1.jpg

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
And if the mind of the Palestinian youth of today and tomorrow is considered , along with the demographic weight , we could predict the next big in some 10 years from now at most .

Duuuuude... ya wanna blow yerself up? Yeaaah duuuude... but only if I geta take somebody with me. Thatd be awsome. Duuuuude.

Say homes can u keep the ignorance to yourself

thank you

I won't show you mine if you won't show me yours. Thank you.

What ignorance am I showing ?

You know very well your place .

You basically have the opinion anything the US, Israel, the UN, or the west in general does must be stupid, evil, or icy calculated because its them doing it. You also feel justabout anything Palestine, most arab countries, anything Muslim, or just about everything anti-west must be pure of heart in whatever they are doing because they are the ones doing it.

I at least accept that the west has its own share of faults. Now its your turn to do the same about that which you have allegence to.

It is not good to be too sure of anything. Always hold at least a little doubt in those behind you as well as those in front.

You basically have the opinion anything the US, Israel, the UN, or the west in general does must be stupid, evil, or icy calculated because its them doing it

No , my disproval is caused by actions in relation to the virtuous position of the mentioned institutions within question .

Im sorry if that my ethics do not merely depend on action , that doesnt mean they have no dependance on action .

Every institution you mentioned can do good in many ways .
Just because they are doing it is not the reason for disproval .

Action has relevancy .

also feel justabout anything Palestine, most arab countries, anything Muslim, or just about everything anti-west must be pure of heart in whatever they are doing because they are the ones doing it.

No , again action plays a very relevant role and I will not judge a person who is a Muslim or Arab prejudiced against any other peoples .

Palestinians can do many things wrong like any other peoples on this globe , however if drawn in compare to Israel , the ones they are doing wrong against , their mistakes become irrelevant in this question . This due to virtue and quantity .

I at least accept that the west has its own share of faults. Now its your turn to do the same about that which you have allegence to.

And how am I not doing that ?

Where am i saying Palestinian or Arabs or Muslims can do no wrong ?

Where am I saying they have not their share of faults ?

You seem to miss the difference between absoluteness and relativity .

you know what, ghassy, i made a mistake
no negotiation with hamas.
no negotiation with PA until they reign in hamas.

let's say hamas stop suicide bombings. some splinter group will form a new terrorist group.

PLO used to be like hamas
then they institutionalized themselves.

there's really no point talking to hamas. terrorism must cease completely.


as for jenin, it was such a horrible massacre i heard. that's why IDF sent in infantry instead of bombing the place with F-15's.
israelis risked their lives for the benifit of palestinian civilians. what a freakin massacre.
23 israeli lives were lost for the sake of those miserable palestinian misfortunates who happened to be in the crossfire.
something like 7 arab non-combatants died. the rest were gunmen, 1 suicide bomber and planners of terror attacks.

and what's the point of those pics? what's they're supposed to demonstrate??

Ghassan, I'm sorry but I see you condemn Israel or America but you support Palestine or some terrorist group or Saddam loyalists when they do either the same thing or something worse. Do the ends justify the ends? I support America mainly because my welfare is in its best intrests and it at least tries to minimize civilian casualties. If you think Israel is evil do you think you are right in becoming just as evil in the search to exterminate them? I see you illustrate all of Israel with malice and the lust for blood. Heck, the worst I characterize the Islamist terrorists with is that they are ruthless bastards who would sacrafice the world to get their ends. I dont illustrate them as licking their blades clean of blood and taking pleasure in the thought of carving out more. (Most I think are deluded, some leaders I think are real sadists though) I don't even mind them making war as long as they do it in a reasonably open fation and don't hide behind civilians. Having them put on uniforms before they go out to kill someone or blow something up is all I ask.

Originally posted by Clockwood
I'm sorry but I see you condemn Israel or America but you support Palestine or some terrorist group or Saddam loyalists when they do either the same thing or something worse.

The totality of actions have created a position of a certain degree of virtue for the nation/government . This position is being taken under consideration when actions against the specific nation/government are morally measured .

You see all commit evil deeds , however not all those evil deeds are means to a righteous cause .

support America mainly because my welfare is in its best intrests and it at least tries to minimize civilian casualties.

So because of

1# Egoism
2# What it tells u it tries even though there is failure guarantee

Good reasons Clock :eek:

If you think Israel is evil do you think you are right in becoming just as evil in the search to exterminate them

No obviously u have to stay beneath it . I dont think Hamas or Islamic Jihad or even Saddam would have problems staying below Israel or USA .

I dont illustrate them as licking their blades clean of blood and taking pleasure in the thought of carving out more.

Neither do I so I dont see your accusations reflecting any reality .

I don't even mind them making war as long as they do it in a reasonably open fation and don't hide behind civilians. Having them put on uniforms before they go out to kill someone or blow something up is all I ask.

Give a tank and an apache to go with it and you have a deal .

Originally posted by otheadp
you know what, ghassy, i made a mistake

Thats what I thought u poor Neshome

no negotiation with hamas.
no negotiation with PA until they reign in hamas.

You know the response

let's say hamas stop suicide bombings. some splinter group will form a new terrorist group.

If Hamas stopped for political reasons rather than the ideology of liberation then yes indeed a new group will take over their tasks .

And we know your happy having a group like hamas as your #1 enemy , if not only for the way they dress at the demonstrations .

PLO used to be like hamas
then they institutionalized themselves.

Sounds like Likud & Labor

there's really no point talking to hamas. terrorism must cease completely.

no talk = no cease

destroy it and there will be a better one

U only help natural selection and incite evolution , they should thank Likud really Labor would only bring stagnation in their development .

something like 7 arab non-combatants died

Why do make claims when u have no knowledge ?

Are you a parrot for Arik ?

and what's the point of those pics?

Showing how nice it looks

U should watch the video as well

we know your happy having a group like hamas as your #1 enemy
:bugeye:

Sounds like Likud & Labor
oh that's bullshit and you know it
i fail to see the parallels. one is less murderous than the other (PA & hamas). how it relates to likud and labor........? in no way.

no talk = no cease
actually, it seems that all that arabs respect is force. the arab barbarism starts only when there's dialogue. when israel kicked all y'all's asses in 67 and 73 there was no more aggression. afterwards. hell, 2 of our neighbours even made peace with us.
but with the "palestinians"... you offer them dialogue, they blow your children up.
when was the 1st suicide bombing? AFTER the oslo accords were signed.

i think the israelis have been too soft.
no talk = cease.

Why do make claims when u have no knowledge ?
Are you a parrot for Arik ?
i'm quoting an official report.
i suppose you can refute this # because you were there?

Originally posted by otheadp
oh that's bullshit and you know it i fail to see the parallels. one is less murderous than the other (PA & hamas). how it relates to likud and labor........? in no way.


Haganah>Labor
Lehi/Irgun>Likud

In terms of murderous there is no compare between PLO-Haganah or Lehi/Irrgun-Hamas/Islamic Jihad , adding to this comes the phenomena of ethnic cleansement .

the arab barbarism starts only when there's dialogue

Thanks for showing your racist way of thinking .

2 of our neighbours even made peace with us

Dont think all betrayes will be accepted

but with the "palestinians"... you offer them dialogue, they blow your children up.

You kill more Palestinian children than they kill yours , 5 times more to be exact please dont bring up children because it only weakens your argument .

And ethnic cleansing and massacering and occupying is not oiffering dialogue .

when was the 1st suicide bombing? AFTER the oslo accords were signed.

Point ?

i think the israelis have been too soft.

You would feel Hitler was too soft if you had been a German at that time .

i'm quoting an official report.

So ? That has authority how ? Because it says "official" ?

Im sorry but we needed an independant confirmation , we didnt get any .

i suppose you can refute this # because you were there?

making up a number I would come closer to the truth than your "official" documents .

You havent watched the video yet have you ?

Ghassan is correct in placing more credibility in actions than in rhetoric.

Words can be lies actions are truths.

I was not referring to Jenin in my question but rather to the massacres that occurred in the 2 refugee camps in Lebanon during the Israeli invasion.

Im sorry I didnt read correctly (pretty stupid since I quoted the word Lebanon) , it seems I have confused myself a bit :o :

Information on the massacres of Sabra & Shatila can be found here :

http://www.indictsharon.net/

Palestinians did it too, before the mandate, and have been doing it since. Black September, PFLP, PLO, etc.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/hebron29.html

PFLP

Dont you just love you Christian brothers ?

Palestinians did it too

They cant compete

ghassy, i watched "jenin jenin" last year.
what a pile of bullshit, that movie.
they interviewd little cute brown-eyed kids with sparkle in their eyes saying something about "the dream of palestine! we will never give up!" (how sensational) and old ppl / 1 pregnant woman. not a single 20-yr old "fighter" was interviewd. not even a masked one.

it's as if they don't even exist.
no israeli side was presented either.

if you take an aerial shot of the place you see that it's a VERY small area that was ruined.
but the camera guy shot the same 2-3 buildings from a million different angles.

israelis came up with their own version of things. arab israelis also made a movie about this. and obviously it's 2-sided. there are ppl from 2 sides interviewed, and numerous "palestinians" confirm time and time again "there was no massacre".
a few days after the operation itself, the Toronto Star (main stream newspaper in toronto) had an interveiw with one of the "fighters" he emphasized there was no massacre. he said "i couldn't believe my eyes. it was like getting a present. i saw soldiers. i thought they're gonna bomb us with planes and helicopters but they sent soldiers"

....
the sabra & shatila "massacres"
interesting....
christian lebanese were killing muslim lebanese
and sharon is responsible, yes? (because they were allies)
why not blame everyone else, right?


Thanks for showing your racist way of thinking
that's not an argument to call my way of thinking racist.
i was talking about arab gov'ts and the terrorist organizations. not about ALL arabs (but you know that, don't you? you just love splitting hairs and distracting from the topic)

You kill more Palestinian children than they kill yours
irrelevant. we've been thru this already. the fact they "got" less of our kids is only because they weren't efficient enough and the IDF stopped them. IDF on the other hand doesn't want to kill children.

And ethnic cleansing and massacering and occupying is not oiffering dialogue
Israeli apartheid, ethnic cleansing / genocide and occupying (http://www.masada2000.org/AccusingIsrael.html)

if that's what you call "apartheid, ethnic cleansing / genocide and occupying" then all nations should practice apartheid, ethnic cleansing / genocide and occupying.

Within Israel today, Jews are a majority, but the large Arab minority (23% of total) are full citizens with voting rights and representation in the government. Under the former South African apartheid system, black South Africans could not vote and were not citizens of the country in which they were the overwhelming majority of the population. There is still some degree of discrimination within Israel, but Israeli Arabs have more political rights than any other Arabs in the Middle East... including their compatriots in the Palestinian Authority.
...
The 1,200,000 Arab Palestinians whose parents and grandparents opted for Israeli citizenship in 1948 now have a life in Israel. Despite their constant bitching and their seeming support for their Palestinian kin to destroy Israel, they have no intention whatsoever of leaving Israel for Arafat’s Palestinian State if, or when, it is declared. If anything, they are popping out Israeli-Arab babies in such high numbers that Israel will demographically no longer BE a Jewish State by the year 2030! Despite their perceived problems with Israel, they still like it there. They vote in Israel's elections and even have Israeli-Arab Knesset members. Free "democratic" elections such as this cannot even be imagined in any one of the 22 countries of the Arab League nor in any of the forty-four Muslim nations throughout Africa and Asia.
...
Israel heavily subsidizes the health of all its Arab citizens equally with that of Jews and other minority groups. Whether they be clinics, hospitals or homes for the aged, all Israeli citizens have access to one of the highest standards of medicine in the world. Monthly subsidies also go to parents of large families (Arabs have the largest families). And get this.... recently, when an Israeli-Arab man blew himself up taking a number of innocent Israelis with him, his family began receiving welfare checks from the government since they were now without a breadwinner! Is THIS what they call "apartheid" and "ethnic cleansing?" If so, then ALL countries should adopt policies of "apartheid" and "ethnic cleansing!"
...
the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics just published the total Arab "Palestinian" populations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It has grown from 1.1 million in 1967 (when Israel began "occupying" these territories) up to over 3.5 million. Does this population explosion sound like "ethnic cleansing and genocide" to you?

enough quoting tho. just read the whole thing

what do palestinians mean by "end of occupation"?

see for yourself
http://www.newhope.to/intentions.html

(maybe this should be a separate topic?)

You base your entire moral consideration on "if" and supposed intentions . You disregard the actual reality in order to do so .

A new topic ? Can you turn of your automatic-pilot and start thinking about issues for yourself ? Another mans argument is rather sad for a topic dont you see .

Besides that , who cares ? Is it a surprise that eventually Israel should ceaze to exist as a zionist state ? How is this surprising ? Has there been any other ideological end ?

Stop making known and acknowledged issues into new arguments they are not . They arent even threatning israel's existence , they are BEING occupied instead .

Do you really need to imagine futuristic situations that can deal with generations in order to have an argument that is actual and real today ?

Pathetic

irrelevant. we've been thru this already. the fact they "got" less of our kids is only because they weren't efficient enough and the IDF stopped them. IDF on the other hand doesn't want to kill children.

How the fuck is killing 5 times as many chidlren irrelevant ? Because your excuse is that you didnt "intended" ? But its a known result for your actions , you shoot at little kids your are bound to hit them their fatality is guaranteed so what possible value can your intentions have ?

Hitler tried to wash the Jews right , he just thought zyklon would work better then soap no ?

Nomatter how you twist and turn , children are innocent victims on whatever side they are on , you kill 5 times as many children than they do you are 5 times as more guilty of being a child-murderer than they are .

Again you come with the if ? If the Jews would have the chance they would have eaten the Germans alive , right ? RIGHT ???!!!

Stop imagining situations that are not accuring to have an argument you can base on"if" . Its not about "if" its about what is happening right now .

that's what you call "apartheid, ethnic cleansing / genocide and occupying" then all nations should practice apartheid, ethnic cleansing / genocide and occupying.

What are you fucking kidding me is this suppose to be an argument or something ? Should I now start my debate with the masada-dude ?

Make your own damn arguments man , honestly NK has nothing on you and I think it has been enough waste of my time to try and approach you on the same level of reason , you obviously arent and as such you ought to be treated .

Should I do like you and post articles from allover the internet that are supposed to "refute" this pathetic devellish bullshit ? Should I just act like Im having an actual discussion with someone and start pointing out the errors in the article ? Then what , will you then link me to another one ?

As for Jenin : give it a rest . Why do you need to justify everything that happens through this endless twists and turns ? Dont you already have your superior ethics for being a Jew and having the right to everything he pleazes regardless of anyone else ?

Try to be an honest person , at the very least that makes you respectable on an intellectual level .

Stoip imagining you are some zionist reporter who needs to translates all the actions into moral acceptability .

thank you for the lessons on how to be moral and good debator.
i'll just let them slide over my head since you're the last one who should be teaching me about either mr "your destruction is our goal" aaight?

so what, you're dismissing the masada arguments now? it's not some "crazy israeli propaganda" you know.

well, you do know but you're too selectively blind and stubborn to acknowledge there's NO apartheid, NO ethnic cleansing, and as for occupation, well there is one. arabs occupying jewish / israeli assigned land....
the last point we can argue till we're both blue. but the 1st 2, there's no argument.

Try to be an honest person , at the very least that makes you respectable on an intellectual level
how about you lead by example, eh, ghassy?

if "honest" is the word you use to describe yourself, you must have a completely different definition of the word.

Hitler tried to wash the Jews right , he just thought zyklon would work better then soap no ?
you're pathetic

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
PFLP

Palestinians did it too

They cant compete

Palestinians can't compete? How pathetic, Palestinian terrorists brake into homes and deliberately murder families, or on buses. As to not competing, the Palestinians are sure determined to do so, take a look at the their brain washing: http://www.factsofisrael.com/

Sorry about having to post the article here, but the actual link is in Hebrew.

Palestinian kid is taught how to dip her hands in Jewish blood
Back in October 2000, the Palestinian Authority had arrested two Israeli reservists who, by mistake, entered the city of Ramallah, in the West Bank. A mob of Palestinian savages stormed in the PA police station and lynched the two reservists. Many of these beasts were then seen showing their bloody hands - something apparently many Palestinians are proud of.




Palestinian savages murder two Israelis
and proudly dip their hands in their blood


Maariv (www.maariv.co.il) reports on how Palestinian children recently celebrated the murder of the two Israeli reservists by dripping their hands in red paint (representing blood).




Palestinian kids dip their hands in red paint
to show how they would like to become savages as well


At the graduation ceremony of one of the most recent kindergarten classes, the children burned the Israeli flag and cried: "In the name of the Shahid (martyr) Mohammed al-dura and the Shahida, the infant Iman al-Haju, we promise to continue with the Jihad, the resistance and the Intifada". One of the girls raised her hands high, hands dipped in red paint, in the manner of one of the perpetrators of the Ramallah lynching, whose hands were covered in blood.
The Islamic Association of Gaza is the largest charitable organization in the Gaza Strip of the religious stream. The Association subsists upon donations and the nominal dues of its members.

Last year, their institutions were visited by representatives of a Swedish NGO and of a South African Islamic delegation. Non-profit organizations in Italy and the US donated computers and VCRs.


The article was written in Hebrew, but I copy the full English translation below.


CHILDREN OF HATE
From Maariv - June 24, 2002 - Translation by Ester
http://images.maariv.co.il/cache/ART309971.html

This is how the graduation ceremony goes at the kindergartens of the "Islamic Charitable Association" in Gaza
By Jackie Hugi

Kindergartens in Gaza teach children Jihad against Israel, justification of the Ramallah lynching [in Oct 2000], admiration of the Hizbullah, and the continuation of the Intifada. The children receive these lessons in Israel-hatred at the independently-run education network of the "Islamic Charitable Association", which is responsible for the education of some 5000 children.

At the graduation ceremony of one of the most recent kindergarten classes, the children burned the Israeli flag and cried: "In the name of the Shahid (martyr) Mohammed al-dura and the Shahida, the infant Iman al-Haju, we promise to continue with the Jihad, the resistance and the Intifada". One of the girls raised her hands high, hands dipped in red paint, in the manner of one of the perpetrators of the Ramallah lynching, whose hands were covered in blood. One boy, dressed as the secretary-general of the Hizballah, Hassan Nasrallah, made a speech in which he said: "The Palestinians will not be alone in their battle against Zionism. Hizbullah is with them, always" - which earned him much applause. Children carried toy rifles, and some had Keffiyehs over their faces.

An internal document of the (Israeli) Government Operations Coordinator in the territories, which came out recently, analyzed the expressions of hostility in the Association's kindergartens. The document determines that the Islamic Association's network of kindergartens serves as a firm base to incite young children against Israel. The document warns that these kindergartens constitute for the Hamas the ideological basis for future suicide bombers.

The Association's website documents the ceremony of the 11th class to graduate these kindergartens. Participating at the ceremony, which took place at the Shati refugee camp on the Gaza coast, were 1650 children and thousands of adults.

The children were dressed in army fatigues. Around the podium where the ceremony took place hung flags of Hizballah and the Islamic Association, pictures of martyred children, and slogan. One of the latter cried: "The blood of the children and the martyred of Palestine will be a curse to haunt to Zionist criminals".

The ceremony started with the reading out loud of passages from the Koran by one of the children. Afterwards, a platoon of five-year-olds staged a military parade, armed with plastic rifles. Two of the children carried a model of the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. One of the marchers stopped and cried, "Do Sharon's tanks, missiles and mortars frighten you?". His friends answered in unison: "No, no". He continued: "The Zionist bombings do not frighten us. Our people will not bend". Later, the children burned the Israeli flag, and one child impersonated Hamas' leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

The Islamic Association of Gaza is the largest charitable organization in the Gaza Strip of the religious stream. It was founded 26 years ago, and at its head is Sheikh Ahmed Bahar, a member of Hamas. It operates tens of kindergartens in Gaza, helps needy families and orphans, and supports poor students and martyrs' children. Additionally, the Association facilitates blood donations, operates a medical clinic for a nominal fee, and also a sports club, best known for its successful volleyball team.

The Association subsists upon donations and the nominal dues of its members.

Last year, their institutions were visited by representatives of a Swedish NGO and of a South African Islamic delegation. Non-profit organizations in Italy and the US donated computers and VCRs.

Sheikh Bahar said at the ceremony that he places the responsibility on the shoulders of the Palestinian mothers to "Raise the children on the teachings of Islam, love of Jerusalem and Palestine, and love of Jihad and resistance"

Oth just for your reference too that website about Israel, well it seems that it has been reciprocity with Israeli fanatics.

http://www.rosenblumcoins.com/mailbids/mb33c/img/1139.JPG

REVISIONIST HEIRTUT PARTY PIN. 1960’s. Featuring a banner shaped as a "7" emerging out of a map of "Greater Israel", inscribed, "The 7th National Assembly of the Heirut Movement." Blue enamel on silver color.

So inessence both sides have their fanatics. I highly doubt now that most Israeli's would want Jordan (but some do) and some Pals. want all of Israel. PPl just want peace do they not?

As far as greater Israel goes, it is found in Old Testament writings for their claims, so why not. I guess it depends on your beliefs.

In the same day the LORD made a acovenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Turn you, and take your journey, and go to the mount of the Amorites, and unto all the places nigh thereunto, in the plain, in the hills, and in the vale, and in the south, and by the sea side, to the land of the Canaanites, and unto Lebanon, unto the great river, the river Euphrates.

Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the bland which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.

Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.

From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.

this "map" is a map of the entire palestine before it was partitioned into a "state for arabs" (trans-jordan) and a state for jews (israel...west of jordan river)

no one.. i repeat... NO one in israel wants jordan.
if ppl do their homework and research a bit, they realize that jordan (75% of original palestine) was supposed to be the official state for the arab palestinians... while the jewish palestinians were allocated the rest of palestine (25% which include judea, samaria and gaza)

O-B-V-I-O-U-S-L-Y not true oth, are you so in the biz of reality supression that u are blind to the obvious. Also I assume you have a poll to support that stance? Also I believe you have telepathy with every israeli.

if ppl do their homework and research a bit, they realize that jordan (75% of original palestine) was supposed to be the official state for the arab palestinians... while the jewish palestinians were allocated the rest of palestine (25% which include judea, samaria and gaza)

I am wiling to do that homework where does it say that, was it a treaty, a accord, etc? And if that were true then why... this:

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~gov46/pal-transjrdn-1922.gif

and this:

http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/arton2059.jpg

I see nothing to indictate Jewish anything, especially considering that they constituted less then 800,000 I believe by independance. 25 is too much even if that were true.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Give a tank and an apache to go with it and you have a deal .

A tank and a helecopter? Not that they would help you very much but such a deal would be something I would jump at if I could get it in writing and signed by the right people. (Perhaps with a little clause that makes your side enforce the "all combatants must wear uniforms" rule, if it isn't we make it a very bad day for everyone) Sadly, I don't think either of us is in a position to go ahead with that sort of thing. (you could be for all I know but I know I'm not)

I would even send you uniforms of your design to sweeten the deal.