Khmer Rouge Trials. Genocide or Failed Revolution?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Mrs.Lucysnow, Apr 26, 2009.

  1. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    The Khmer Rouge of Cambodia have long been known for its barbarous massacre of the Cambodian people. Its estimated that roughly close to two million people died during their five year reign, which began in 1975 and ended in 1979 either from starvation, forced labour, execution or disease. From the mass killings the estimate of deaths by some scholars is around 600,000. This was 30 years ago.

    Since that time the international community and many Khmers have looked to a tribunal to bring closure to a brutal past that many can still remember. In light of this The Extrodinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia (ECCC) was set up in 2006 under an agreement betweent the UN and Cambodia but not without controversy. Staffed with foreign and Khmer employees the initial cost of the trials was $56 million but that number has since tripled, yet still it was only in Feburary 2009 that the first trial began. Only five members of the KR are to be tried:

    Duch, a former math teacher was head of S-21/Toul Sleng, an old high school turned into a center for torture and execution. Duch who has long admitted guilt has been in prison since the days of UNTAC but has yet to give a full account of what happened and denies responsibility of the most gruesome activities at Toul Sleng. There were some 200 centers like Toul Sleng all over the country.

    http://www.phnompenhpost.com/index.php/component/option,com_myblog/Itemid,149/show,Apology.html/

    The other four awaiting trial are Noun Chea or Brother No 2 as he was known in the Khmer Rouge hierarchy, former Democratic Kampuchea head of state Khieu Samphan, and former Foreign Minister Ieng Sary and his wife, Ieng Thirith, the regime's Minister of Social Action. King Sihanouk who lives between Korea and China is exempt from trial and refuses to be questioned by the ECCC.

    Pol Pot the leader of the Khmer Rouge died of natural causes on the Thai-Cambodian border in 1998.

    Pol Pot interview:

    http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/23/w...pol-pot-declares-his-conscience-is-clear.html

    Controversy has dogged these trials from the beginning:

    1. Were the massacres the result of an actual genocide or a failed revolution?

    Michael Vickery revisionist historian & well respected Khmer scholar posits that the bulk of deaths during that time were from starvation, forced labour, disease and arbitrary killing, that among vietnamese, ethnic minority groups ie. Chams, educated Khmers, those who spoke a second language, those who were in commerce,dancers, artists, anyone educated, anyone who represented the past regime, Khmer Rouge cadres themselves, people who stole food or simply looked at a leader the wrong way...etc. as barbarous as it was, could hardly be called a genocide, a term used to describe on ethnic group systematically attempting to wipe out another group or culture. The KR's peasant revolution had soon become so paranoid and morbid that no one in the system was safe from suspicion and possible execution. There was no 'other' as in Rwanda or Nazi Germany. Khmers it is reasoned turned on Khmers leading to the phrase 'autogenocide'. Also it is noted that the circumstances were not the same all over the country as some provinces exprienced serious hardship and others did not.

    3. Ex-Khmer Rouge members are currently part of the government namely Prime Minister Hun Sen, Heng Samrin Cambodias National Assembly Chariman and Chea Sim President of the Senate. It is questionable whether the current leadership is really serious about the trial. With five already in custody there is resistance to look for others who may also be responsible. These members in custody are already so old (all in their 80's) that it is feared that continued attempts to stall and impede justice coupled with legal wranglings will mean the four members will never actually be tried and convicted but will simply die a natural death. Indeed the UN were reluctant to have a trial citing "widespread concerns over the notoriously corrupt Cambodian judiciary, and its lack of independence." This being the case why are they having it?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7970881.stm

    http://www.justiceinitiative.org/db/resource2?res_id=104178

    2. The dates of the tribunal only cover between 1975-79. Though these are the dates of acutal KR rule over the country many believe that the years have been purposely limited to implicate the Chinese who aided and supplied the KR, limits placed on the tribunal by Washington which had a huge hand to play in the rise of the Khmer Rouge. Noam Chomsky arrived in Phnom Penh fired up to remind everyone of the mess the U.S government created in Cambodia:

    ‘’It (the trial) shouldn’t be limited to the Cambodians,’’ says Chomsky in an interview that appeared on the weekend.

    ‘’An international trial that doesn’t take into account Henry Kissinger or other authors of the American bombings and the support of the KR (Khmer Rouge) after they were kicked out of the country, that’s just a farce.’’

    And he is quite right. The US government aided Lon Nol whom they hoped would help them in their war with the Vietnamese. At the time the Vietnamese crossed in and out of Cambodian borders moving military and arms. At the time King Sihanouk declared his nation neutral. Lon Nol held a coup against King Sihanouk who took refuge in China. The U.S ILLEGALLY sent South Vietnamese troops into Cambodia and then ILLEGALLY bombed the country. China has stated that though they gave aid they as is usual 'defers to domestic decisions'. The fledgling KR movement taking umbrage at the U.S backed Lon Nol government and U.S bombings struggled to wage a war that would 'redeem' their king and oust the elements that had hijacked the country. They did this successfully. China today is a main economic investor in Cambodia and the two countries have strong ties.

    http://www.edwebproject.org/sideshow/history/coup.html

    ‘’The records say that the US wanted to ‘use anything that flies against anything that moves’ (during the bombing of Cambodia), which led to five times the bombing that was reported before, greater that all bombings in all theatres of World War Two, which helped create the Khmer Rouge,’’ Chomsky asserted.

    Washington began flying sorties over Cambodia in the mid-1960s to crush parts of the country being used by North Vietnamese troops. These bombing raids using B-52 planes were kept a secret from the U.S. public for years.

    http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=46317

    Meanwhile as these trials are going on very few Khmers have gone to the tribunals to testify against the former KR. Some who did were shocked that they were only given $5 for transport fees and expected a larger payment for 'giving their story'. Broadcast of the trial is poor so there are still those in the country that are unaware fo the tribunals existence. Indeed I cannot say I hear too many Khmers concerning themselves with these events in the capitol of Phnom Penh, it simply happened too long ago. Many young people either don't believe it happened (the KR is absent from school books), some saying it was a Vietnamese invention to justify occupying the country for ten years or that the vietnamese did it themselves. Others believe it happend but in Buddhist fashion shrug off the past as they concern themselves with the present. The economic boom in Cambodia has created a generation more interested in new phones and cars than in tribunals or history. Of course there are those who are quite emotional and would like to see those responsible pay for their crimes, but even now if any tourist went to Pailin province they would find locals 'shocked' that some of their 'comrads' are on trial. Pailin was a KR stronghold and still sees KR support. In Pailin there are many who see the KR as heros, defenders of their king and strong nationalists who struggled hard and sacrificed for their country.

    Is it best to put the past to rest instead of paying millions of dollars on a trial that looks as if it will last forever? Especially in such a poor country where the money could be of better use.

    Is closure possible even if the trial is 30 years later? Giving a voice and justice to those who suffered.

    Should the dates be altered to implicate the West as well as China?







    Timeline of events in Cambodian History:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1244006.stm

    Wiki History of Cambodia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge#The_Paris_student_group
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2009
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for your exhaustive and excellent review of the circumstances surrounding the Khmer Rouge trials.

    I will admit freely that I am not at all familiar with the minutae of the Pol Pot phenomenon and Khmer Rouge revolution. But I think it quite admirable that inspite of so many Khmer Rouge members being active in the government, Cambodia has not stepped back from enlisting the aid of the UN to bring some closure and accountability to the devastation caused by the Khmer Rouge to the Cambodian people. If nothing else, it speaks favorably of the Cambodian people's sense of justice.

    I agree that it is duplicitious for outsiders to describe boundaries within which the trials should be conducted. But as we have already observed in your thread on sovereignty, there is no such animal in the real world. But I don't believe the Chinese will be restrained when it comes to recriminations and sharing blame in the tragedy of Cambodia. With the economic situation being what it is, I doubt they have anything to worry about.

    What would you consider, realistically, as the outcome of this trial?
     
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Its hard to tell. There is much wrangling between prosecuting and defense lawyers. At one point the trials were delayed because all notes, evidence etc were written in English and Khmer, the french defense lawyers insisted they be translated into French and that took months and months more time. There have been questions as to how they will deal with khmer citizens who choose to testify, is it important that they are able to pin point those on trial or simply recount their persoanl experience under the regime. The documentation center in Phnom Penh has records from those who were in charge so there is a paper trail though nothing as extensive as Nazi Germany. Time is running out, those in custody are quite old and in questionable health. The worst thing that can happen is that they drop dead one by one before the trials actually begin. I do believe that the Khmers need to feel some closure on this part of their history and you are right, the Chinese are simply sitting back and not concerning themselves with the trial so much. I think its great that notables like Chomsky are highlighting the part the U.S had to play historically but those who question the limitations need to consider it may be more important to leave it alone and not inadvertently place more obstacles and controversy before the tribunals.
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You may be right, but I beg to disagree. While death may allow the defendants to evade justice, the issue is not so much of individual accountability as of the practice of exploiting the local issues by outside interests.

    To that end, I think a discussion on the outcomes of foreign policy would be more useful to prevent the future recurrences of such tragedies.

    Of course, I'm being idealistic here, but I think you will agree that the difference between China and the US is that in the US, the American people have opinions on human rights and the ability to enforce accountability from their representatives. What US foreign policy does is essentially disregard the fact that most Americans when presented with the facts of the case would be aghast at the machinations of the representatives.

    I'm not certain the same could be said for the Chinese.
     
  8. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Hummm. Perhaps. Hun Sen has already shown preference towards the Chinese when it comes to foreign investments and they have very deep ties. The Americans on the other hand have done much to piss him off and he is quite vocal about it. The Khmers on the tribunal are very sensitive to how its run and resist those who try and steer its direction towards a political end they find not in their best interest so you could very well be right. Also the French are keen to see U.S past involvement prominently outlined; they love to remind everyone that through their entire time in Cambodia they had no hand in the destruction of Cambodia. The only party that wants to focus on the Chinese are the Americans.
     
  9. chris4355 Registered Senior Member

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    "Is it best to put the past to rest instead of paying millions of dollars on a trial that looks as if it will last forever? Especially in such a poor country where the money could be of better use."

    What bugs me is why does this trial cost so much in the first place?

    "Is closure possible even if the trial is 30 years later? Giving a voice and justice to those who suffered."

    They can get justice, but I don't think closure is possible. No matter what ends up happening to those 5 people in trial you can't make it up for hundreds of thousands/millions of death.

    Apparently the max penalty for those expected to face trial is life in prison. (I got that info from the radio don't have source)

    "Should the dates be altered to implicate the West as well as China?"

    It is somewhat hypocritical that they don't since they are responsible as well. But I could see how it would be more difficult to prosecute people outside the country.
     
  10. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Why does it cost so much? Very good question! Because its the U.N that's why. What I find outrageous is that the pay for foreign employee is by far more than what a Khmer employee is paid, something that has caused quite a bit of resentment. This trial is going to get a lot more expensive as time goes on.

    Its not that they want to prosecute anyone in the U.S for the part they played, the idea is to shed a light on all the events in their entirety. Its absurd to pretend that the KR suddenly arrived out of nowhere and committed atrocities, the events that helped shape cambodia's collapse deeply tied to american actions and foreign policy at that time and there are many who feel that this should be made clear to the Cambodian people.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2009
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Off topic, but you might want to look into the aid distribution in Afghanistan as reflected by what NATO pay checks are compared to what the average Afghan family gets.
     
  12. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Does anyone have a problem with the label genocide to describe the events that took place?
     
  13. chris4355 Registered Senior Member

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    Well, looks like its just going to be a big waste of money just to trial a bunch of old people who will soon die anyways. From my perspective I see little point in all of this, but then again I have not been affected by what happened so maybe my view is just flawed.
     
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I'll go and do some investigating. I have a fairly good idea how it will turn out. Its outrageous the costs that the U.N demands to do poor work. If the average world citizen knew of the institutionalized corruption in these organizations they would demand reforms.
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    Of course they are. The French try to find fault in others, while blindly ignoring their own role in the Rwandan genocide and its aftermath.

    The one thing that is lacking in foreign policy and politics is accountability. It would serve better if the countries involved in the rise of the KR admitted to their roles and apologised, instead of finger pointing and the blame game.

    What other word is there to describe the events that took place? They may have killed their own, but it was still a systematic killing of anyone the KR deemed to be a danger to their regime. Those who were targeted and killed were singled out because of who they were. Just because they were of the same people does not make it any less of a genocide. It was an attempt to destroy and wipe out a whole portion of the population.

    The lack of difference (as can be attributed in Rwanda for example) does not make it any less of a genocide.

    If you read the stories and accounts of the survivors of the Rwandan genocide, one of the first things that always springs to mind is the surprise of the Tutsi about why it happened. They considered the Hutu's to be just like them. They lived together, were friends, married each other. The manner in which they were designated as being different stemmed from how the colonialists first delineated them. To the Tutsi survivors and many of the Hutu's who did not take part in the killings, they were Rwandans and to them, it was astounding that they could again be targeted because of a distinction that was forced upon them by the French and the Belgians and the English.

    --------------------------------------------

    Is there a need for closure? It is not for outside sources to determine. The people who suffered at the hands of the KR are the ones who need to determine that for themselves. It is astounding that it has taken so long to get to the point of a trial. But to hold 5 people responsible for the crimes of thousands? How?

    In Rwanda, the trials were swift. And mostly held locally. The punishments were also swift. But the biggest message from the Rwandan genocide is that it wasn't the common man who partook in it who was wanted. It was the people involved in the planning and the carrying out who were wanted most for trial. Kagame commented at one point that it would be impossible to try everyone who was involved and took part in it because there were just so many. It would be tantamount to another genocide, but only this one under the auspice of legality.

    But 5 people and so long after? It just seems too little, too late to me. Rwanda tried their accused as soon as possible, with little international interference for the most part. What is happening in Cambodia now seems to me to be more about showmanship, almost as an appeasement to the world community. And it shouldn't be about that.
     
  16. draqon Banned Banned

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    I do. I do not believe it is a genocide. It is a political failed move.
     
  17. chris4355 Registered Senior Member

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    good points, but what if the victims who suffered from the KR wanted those people in jail, even if its just 5 of them I don't think theres anything wrong with going through with it.
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    In that sense, there is nothing wrong with going through with it. The closure should come to those who survived and the family of the deceased, not to outside forces because they feel guilty for their involvement.
     
  19. chris4355 Registered Senior Member

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    I see your point. I am sure a large community of people who were affected by this are glad at least those 5 men are being trialed. I could see how starting those trials could be open for debate depending how how high of a demand for justice exists in Cambodia, but since we already started I feel like letting go of the case would be kinda "weak" (sorry couldnt think of a better word

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  20. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I doubt that the Cambodians will ever get an apology from the U.S, I think the government only apologizes when they have their own citizens asking for accountability and this happened too long ago and most americans aren't even remotely aware of Cambodia outside of Angelina Jolie.

    You say: "They may have killed their own, but it was still a systematic killing of anyone the KR deemed to be a danger to their regime. Those who were targeted and killed were singled out because of who they were."

    Not so simple. Most of the deaths during KR times were due to harsh labour conditions, starvation and disease. Its not clear how many died from execution. The fact of the matter is that those who were singled out for execution was quite broad due primarily to party paranoia. To try and justify the use of the word 'genocide' the argument has been made that since they targeted people like the ethnic Chams, cambodia's muslim minority group, that the word can somehow stick. I disagree and concur with scholars like Vickery who say it was more of a failed revolution. We don't call Stalin's massacre a genocide nor do we call Mao's executions a genocide, and the KR revolution more closely mirrored Mao's cultural revolution though they were not 'maoists'.

    Interestingly enough Stalin did target 'groups'

    ...today, on the 70th anniversary of the destruction of a quarter of Ukraine's population, this titanic crime has almost vanished into history's black hole.So has the extermination of the Don Cossacks by the Soviets in the 1920's, and Volga Germans, in 1941; and mass executions and deportations to concentration camps of Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, and Poles. At the end of World War II, Stalin's gulag held 5.5 million prisoners,23% Ukrainians and 6% Baltic peoples.
    Almost unknown is the genocide of 2 million of the USSR's Muslim peoples: Chechen, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, Tajiks, Bashkir, Kazaks. The Chechen independence fighters today branded "terrorists" by the US and Russia are the grandchildren of survivors of Soviet concentration camps."

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis45.html

    But it still isn't classified nor historically remembered as a 'genocide' even though Stalin's rule was much more systematic in how it singled out those groups. We must remember that genocide has a very very specific meaning and if we go about using it willy nilly just because the number of deaths are high then we'll end up calling hiroshima and nagasaki an attempted 'genocide' but it wouldn't be accurate. The KR executed those who stole food, those who tried to run away, those who wouldn't admit they were traitors, they executed their own cadres etc. There wasn't a systematic attempt to destroy another 'group' or 'culture'. You bring up Rwanda but the Hutu's and the Tutsi's were two distinct groups and historical enemies, even now they continue to kill each other in neighboring Congo. There were many Jews who were an integral part of German society, married to Germans, spoke the language, lived and worked with Germans who were their friends, yes and genocide occurred. The KR were not trying to destroy a particular people they were attempting to build a new era, a new society which is where the term Year Zero come's in; it was the day they won the capitol of Phnom Penh and the revolution began. When they emptied the city at the time it wasn't to 'kill' it was to disperse city dwellers among the provinces to work the fields, to build a new agrarian society.

    We must remember that as far as the trial is concerned Hun Sen had first called for a trial after UNTAC and the U.N didn't think it advisable. Over time Prime Minister Hun Sen then decided he wasn't too interested in one either. It was outsided forces that pushed the issue. There are khmers who want this trail to happen but there is also a good number who would rather let the whole thing disappear into the pages of history. Former KR still live right alongside their former victims. There is also a number of Khmers who are not focused on these trials, they've moved on and would like the world to see Cambodia as something other than 'pol pot country' because it isn't anymore. To give you an indication of how Khmer's relate to this period, a few years ago not to far from my apartment I may add, a Khmer family opened a 'theme' restaurant. They named it The 'Cafe History - Khmer Rouge Experience' and it was right across from Toul Sleng, where Duch had a hand in the deaths of so many and where many tourists go to visit. They figured this is what foreigners come to see about Cambodia, so why not give them the KR experience and capitalize on it. They didn't have any sense of how absolutely morbid the thing was or why people were offended or why foreigners didn't want to eat there. Its outsiders who choose to focus on that aspect of history not the Khmers. There are only two things outsiders know about Cambodia, the Killing Fields and Angkor Wat, and that's exactly what they focus on when they arrive in the country. Read this short article its crazy.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-594414/Khmer-Rouge-cafe-opens-Cambodia.html

    I believe one of the reasons why certain outside forces like to pin the word genocide is to justify the trials to begin with. Hun Sen has made a concession and has sacrificed five people, only one has been tried, Duch, and its easy to try him since he's already been through the courts and has already admitted guilt. Duch has been in jail for years. When they attempted to arrest the others they used a huge millitary presence because they were afraid of the reaction of the locals who do not see these people as criminals but KR heros. Pailin is still very sympathetic towards the KR.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2009
  21. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I would also like to add that Cambodian history is written by outsiders, not Khmers, so the perspective is that of outsiders and not Khmers, whether that be Vickery, Chandler or any of the others. I look forward to the day that Khmers reclaim their history and begin deciphering their own history and giving themselves a voice.

    Its important to remember that many who vocally lobbied are Khmer-Americans who returned to Cambodia, like Theary Seng for example who is actively involved with the trials. Her family were killed by the KR and she's written a book about the affair but she escaped from the country at the age of five and has lived primarily in the U.S. She has worked with the Republican Institute who support the opposition party in Cambodia. The Republican Institute is a 'non-profit' american organization that works to 'advancement of democracy worldwide' throughout the world (its basically an american spook satellite) She didn't live through the whole mess as those who stayed or were returned from refugee camps. French and American Khmers are quite different from the local Khmers.

    Also Bells would you call the Israeli crimes against Palestinians an ongoing genocide? I would not but it certainly mirrors more of the features than what happened during the KR. Or what of Idi Amin's Uganda? Why isn't that genocide?

    Rwanda's genocide as you note has its roots from colonization where the british placed the Tutsi who represented 2% of the population in charge of the Hutu majority. Before this they were not one nation but two tribes living side by side. Same reason why they've been killing each other in Burundi after it became a European colony.

    Bells: What is happening in Cambodia now seems to me to be more about showmanship

    Yes many believe this is a 'show trial' and that the other four will never see trial
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2009
  22. chris4355 Registered Senior Member

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    good points lucy

    Maybe the US will apologize in a 100 years if ever they may want something from Cambodia. =)
     
  23. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    What could the USA possibly want from that shit-hole, stinkin', poverty-stricken nation??

    Besides, if we ever actually wanted something, we could just take it ...and toss a few coins to 'em just for the fun of watching the Cambodians fight over them.

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