When I first heard about what happened with him, how he ended up in afghanistan it seemed like he was vilified to a rediculous extent. It's not like he went there after 9/11, he was fighting with people that had just been invited to the whitehouse after all. I guess my point is that the rules of the game had changed, he didn't.

But that's my view, I was curious what you guys thought now that a little time has passed and blood has had a chance to cool.

While the blood of the dead has cooled, mine continues to heat up, watching my country continue to lose its way. JWL did not refuse to fight, nor did he attempt to leave/escape his environment when it turned out that his fellow Americans came for combat with the Taliban. The only just treatment of Lindh in response would have been to simply strip him of US citizenship and leave him alone.

JWL had every legal and moral right to do everything he did, and the only thing the US govt should have authority and desire to do in response is to revoke his citizenship and then drop him off at home on a short-duration visa, so that he may say his goodbyes, and then resume his chosen life. There is no reason whatsoever for this man to be detained: Only deported. Furthermore, America's illegal detentions in general are going to sew a very bitter harvest in the years ahead: Our abandonment of norms of international law are not only angering millions- these illegal actions by the US government, being carried out with the tacit consent of the American public, are causing an extremely critical erosion of legal protections for Americans who travel and live abroad. This will have very serious economic implications in the future.

Americans cannot effectively hoard WMDs while loudly and even violently insisting that "inferior" countries and cultures may not do likewise- This policy has already resulted in rampant and widespread proliferation. In the same way, the United States cannot meddle arbitrarily with human rights and the legal status of individuals, without very serious international consequences. We have just witnessed a point in history that will be noted for the ages, when the USA rapidly and conspicuously destabilised the world, by "leading" it to greater lawlessness through blatant hubris and short-sightedness.

Noblesse Oblige: Prominence requires responsible action, and the USA has just dismally failed that test. There is however one opportunity to limit the damage considerably in the next election: Whatever flaws John Kerry may have, it is more important that Americans repudiate what has been done in their name, and throw out the Bush government as soon as possible. If we do not do so clearly and democratically, then we will have many dire consequences to face, including a precipitous loss of American clout in the world at a time when new competitors to our economic and political predominance are rising fast. We need to remind ourselves again, and then show the world anew, what it means to be an American, and what we do as law-abiding democrats when we must protect our nation from leaders or citizens who reveal themselves as either foreign or domestic enemies. JWL chose the wrong side when the USA went to war with the Taliban. Now all Americans must choose sides, because the Bush Administration has revealed itself as a highly dangerous enemy of We, the People. Our response should be a clear warning to any American public servants who would allow power to blind them to their sacred responsibilities.

If you want to celebrate this 4th of July, why not do something to save America, because right now, we're losing it.

Mod note: why do you delete so many of your own posts? You can just edit them you know.

Well put, H. I'll go along with that, for the most part.

If he renounced his citizenship and fought against Americans then he should be treated just like any other Taliban fighter. Unfortunately what that SHOULD be and what we're DOING are two different things right now. Putting people in jail without any due process whatsoever is just wrong, and it shouldn't matter who they are or where they came from.

It's not even consistent *policy* by the Bush Administration. They've put Taliban fighters in *prison*, and Iraqi fighters in charge of Falluja. Where is the sense in this?

I don't agree with you about throwing Bush out, but I'll refrain from changing the subject and just leave it at that. IMO it's a powerful enough statement that a Bush supporter agrees with what you just said.

Lindh fought Americans as an American citizen. The law is clear that that is a big offense, and it doesn’t matter if he never fired a shot. He got lucky to get only 20 years. The sentencing judge likely took into account his youth. Yes, his problem was that he did not change along with the change to the game.

Once you join the Taliban, I doubt it is easy to escape. I doubt Lindh could have simply left the Taliban once the US invaded whether he wanted to or not.

I think Lindh was simply an easily demonized individual at a point in time when Americans wanted blood. And the administration gave it to them with pleasure.

He was in the wrong place, at the wrong time.

Once you join the Taliban, I doubt it is easy to escape. I doubt Lindh could have simply left the Taliban once the US invaded whether he wanted to or not.

They made him an offer he couldn't refuse.
He left the gun, and took the kebab.
He just wasn't a "wartime" terrorist.
It wasn't personal. Strictly terrorism.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

I'm not familiar with that, is it a poem or song or something?

Zanket, Lindh never set out to fight Americans. Who did he fight? Masood and the Tajiks? Dostum and the Uzbeks? The Hazaras? Did anybody even care? Why didn't our media bother to tell the story of who Lindh fought before the Americans arived? Did Lindh ever fire his weapon at anybody?


Be glad that those twenty thousand people (if they ever really existed) who went through the terrorist training camps went home and got married and their wives won't let them go out to play terrorist any more.

hypewaders has a pretty serious point - my American expatriate friends are getting worried about how international law applies to them. I’m sometimes glad that I’m Canadian.

I’m sometimes glad that I’m Canadian.

only sometimes? TRAITOR!!

I don't have much to say about canadians with your beady little eyes and flaping heads http://www.aimface.com/ikons/IKON613375c4346b4ec02f496ef92db2a56f10d33108a9.gif

but back to the issue, if you where judging JWL what would you do?

I wouldn't have done a damn thing. Just let the IRC process him and then send him back to his chosen country of residence: Afghanistan.

If he ever wishes after that to return to the United States and rejoin American society, he may answer then for his actions as we tend to ask of anyone coming to the country to stay. (For more on that, see this odd little topic from a few months ago (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=34698).)