Apparently fundamentalist Islam isn't the only idealogue known to promote the abuse of women. Fundamentalist male Jews also seem to have a very low opinion of the opposite sex.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=801449&contrassID=19



Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat
By Daphna Berman

A woman who reported a vicious attack by an ad-hoc "modesty patrol" on a Jerusalem bus last month is now lining up support for her case and may be included in a petition to the High Court of Justice over the legality of sex-segregated buses.

Miriam Shear says she was traveling to pray at the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City early on November 24 when a group of ultra-Orthodox (Haredi) men attacked her for refusing to move to the back of the Egged No. 2 bus. She is now in touch with several legal advocacy and women's organizations, and at the same time, waiting for the police to apprehend her attackers.

In her first interview since the incident, Shear says that on the bus three weeks ago, she was slapped, kicked, punched and pushed by a group of men who demanded that she sit in the back of the bus with the other women. The bus driver, in response to a media inquiry, denied that violence was used against her, but Shear's account has been substantiated by an unrelated eyewitness on the bus who confirmed that she sustained an unprovoked "severe beating."

Every two or three days, someone would tell me to sit in the back, sometimes politely and sometimes not," she recalled this week in a telephone interview. "I was always polite and said 'No. This is not a synagogue. I am not going to sit in the back.'"

But Shear, a 50-year-old religious woman, says that on the morning of the 24th, a man got onto the bus and demanded her seat - even though there were a number of other seats available in the front of the bus.

"I said, I'm not moving and he said, 'I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.' Then he spat in my face and at that point, I was in high adrenaline mode and called him a son-of-a-bitch, which I am not proud of. Then I spat back. At that point, he pushed me down and people on the bus were screaming that I was crazy. Four men surrounded me and slapped my face, punched me in the chest, pulled at my clothes, beat me, kicked me. My snood [hair covering] came off. I was fighting back and kicked one of the men in his privates. I will never forget the look on his face."

Shear says that when she bent down in the aisle to retrieve her hair covering, "one of the men kicked me in the face. Thank God he missed my eye. I got up and punched him. I said, 'I want my hair covering back' but he wouldn't give it to me, so I took his black hat and threw it in the aisle."

is there a point?

i see one. in this instance, the woman is able to pursue legal recourse. many muslim women arent allowed even that.

no parallel.

Post deleted

3. Stereotyping, Insulting and name-calling

people who hate jews will always find a reason for it. no matter if its one jew, two jews, fifty jews. as long as its jewish.

Fundamentalism is stupid.

Religion sucks. I'm sick of having to tolerate it when they get to do whatever the hell they want to everyone else.

At least she fought back, she should have shot them. Alot of Israelis carry.

people who hate jews will always find a reason for it. no matter if its one jew, two jews, fifty jews. as long as its jewish.

"Quantity dos'nt matter they all want your money." :p I joke, I generally like jews as people I hate using the holocaust as an excuse to do whatever they want, woody allen was against it aswsell, look what happened to his career.

movie worth watching, fiddler on the roof, nice movie without the oppsession for revenge which you get in steven speilbergs films.

Apparently fundamentalist Islam isn't the only idealogue known to promote the abuse of women. Fundamentalist male Jews also seem to have a very low opinion of the opposite sex.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=801449&contrassID=19

As has been pointed out: this woman has legal recourse. How much legal protection (practical or theoretical) has any woman to a beating in more properly fundamentalist countries, such as Saudi Arabia or Pakistan?

This is quite an isolated incident. By all means, the individuals responsible should be arrested; and I support any changes in Judaism required for increased gender parity. But what is the proportion of such fundamentalists in the Jewish community? Is it a real "tiny minority" this time?

I feel I should point out here that I also recognize the Holocaust, which, if I recall, mountainhare does not. I have no wish to engage in personal attacks, but I do consider source in debate, as most people do.

I think the point the OP was trying to make, which it seems no one has gotten, is that every religion, group, race, class, etc, are equally as bad as each other. All religions have their fundamentalists who are equally as bad as others. In short, when you live in a glass house, don't throw stones.

But how many fundamentalists has each group?

And how many would resort to violence?

And what scriptural motivation is there for such violence; and what social trends? What is life like where each respective group dominates?

Great points.

Jewish intellectuals are the most influential promoters of feminism, but in non-Israeli countries only: a feminized Gentile male is less likely to be anti-Semitic. But they sure don't promote it in Israel, and the radically conservative Jews go so far as to push to legally give males legal ownership of the females.

Personally, I don't identify with either a male or female mentality: I don't yell, fart, and play sports all day like a male, and I don't stair in the mirror all day while discussing Oprah like a female: I think I'm a genetic mutant.

You don't fart? I don't believe you.

I resent your implication that Jewish intellectuals only promote feminism in a cynical way- to prevent anti-Semitism. You have a one-dimensional view of human beings.

You don't fart? I don't believe you.

I resent your implication that Jewish intellectuals only promote feminism in a cynical way- to prevent anti-Semitism. You have a one-dimensional view of human beings.

If anything, it's a testament to the high intelligence of the Ashkenazi, to be able to be so ethnically competitive and saavy. Natural selection is all about winners and losers.

Now that actually is anti-Semitic. It's refers to the stereotype that Jews are conniving and use their intelligence mostly to further their own ethnic or religious group.

Jewish intellectuals are the most influential promoters of feminism, but in non-Israeli countries only

That's funny, because the article this thread is about states:


Word of Shear's story traveled quickly after she forwarded an e-mail detailing her experience. She has been contacted by a number of groups, including Shatil, the New Israel Fund's Empowerment and Training Center for Social Change; Kolech, a religious women's forum; the Israel Religious Action Center (IRAC), the legal advocacy arm of the local Reform movement; and the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance (JOFA).

Now since this is sciforums, let's pretend that people make an effort to think scientifically. An idea cannot be scientific unless it is falsifiable. A great deal of racism, being based on paranoid or wishful thinking, is a collection of words meant to persuade the self or others but has little connection to fact.

Your assertion that Jews 'use' feminism exclusively outside of Israel was, for once, falsifiable, and for this you get two Brownie points. It has, in addition, been falsified, and for this, you lose the argument.

I think I'm a genetic mutant.

There, at least, I think we can agree.

Amazon.com: Buddhist Women on the Edge: Contemporary Perspectives ...Mostly fine essays on varied Buddhist women & issues, June 2, 2005 ... about men and women who abuse and undervalue women practitioners the most. ...
www.amazon.com/Buddhist-Women-Edge-Contemporary-Perspectives/dp/1556432038
Dear MH, thiis "evil", in all communites it seems.

deleted

ISLAM'S CRIME OF (ENCOURAGING ON) RAPING WOMEN

Not too many in the west were so exposed to that awful truth as lately with:

Imam justifies rape of unveiled women Ynetnews - Oct 26, 2006 Australia's top Muslim cleric rationalized a series of gang rapes by Arab ... The cleric also said the judge in the case, who sentenced ... "The uncovered meat is the ... http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3320149,00.html

Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks The Australian, Australia - Oct 25, 2006... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat? ... by Sheik Hilali's remarks, insisting the cleric was no ... Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali - who does not ... http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html

Sheikh Al Hilaly is quoted as comparing some women to uncovered ...ABC Online, Australia - Oct 27, 2006... not wear the hijab, or headdress, are like uncovered meat. ... quotes, taken from a sermon the cleric made in ... Channel 7, Mr Costello said the Muslim community must ... http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1773857.htm

Outrage at Mufti's Rape Remarks오마이뉴스, South Korea - Oct 26, 2006Australia's highest Islamic cleric, Sheik Taj Din Al Hilaly has sparked ... "The uncovered meat is the ... of vicious gang rapes by a gang of young Muslim men against ... http://www.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?at_code=369328


_______________

Related:


The Ten O'Clock Scholar: Islam Encourages Rape And Slavery
Islam Encourages Rape And Slavery. An interesting new blog out of Norway, that discusses Islamic infiltration of Scandinavia, and the difficulties of ...

Islam Encourages Rape And Slavery An interesting new blog out of Norway, that discusses Islamic infiltration of Scandinavia, and the difficulties of confronting it due to Political Correctness. See the conclusion to this entry:


http://thetenoclockscholar.blogspot.com/2005/02/islam-encourages-rape-and-slavery_21.html

____________

The following is from http://FaithFreedom.org

____________


Search the site found: http://www.islam-watch.org/ and you find what you need or you look for their source.

Here it is: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21502 This article is a follow up of this one, focusing on Australia: http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/readarticle.asp?ID=20535&p=1

But a more general article about world-wide muslim gang rape spree is to be found here: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20646 I read this article in frontpagemag a few months ago. I was disapointed they didn't put the links to all the newspapers they took information from. You know when you post frontpagemag, muslims and liberals just go crazy: they claims it is conservative lies and so on... So I researched longly and found almost all the mainstream's international newspapers articles cited. Now these international articles are maybe old and not on-line anymore, but I have read all the following articles and all what frontpagemag claims was in these articles when I read them. Here are the links: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4656245.stm Quote:


Christian Solidarity Worldwide reported that in April 2005, a 9-year-old Pakistani girl was raped, beaten with a cricket bat, hanged upside down from the ceiling, and repeatedly bashed while handcuffed. Her Muslim neighbors informed her they were doing it because she was an “infidel and a Christian.”
http://tw-women.formosa.org/act2.html http://www.nyct.net/~china/ic_8_facts.html Quote:

At 9.15 am, a huge crowd had gathered around the apartment. They screamed, "Let's butcher the Chinese!", "Let's eat pigs!", "Let's have a party!". We lived on the 7th floor ... Inside, we could heard girls, whose age around 10-12, screaming, "Mommy... Mommy..." "Mom... Mom... it hurts.." ... Uncle Dodi kept trying to persuade them by offering money, but the effort was fruitless. And in the end they forcedly raped Veny. Not able to stand all of this anymore, I cried and closed my eyes. There were about 5 people who raped Veny, and before beginning, everyone always said, "Allahu akbar" (and Islamic phrase in Arabic, meaning "God is the greatest"). They were ferocious, brutal. Not long afterward, around 9 men came to the room and dragged me. I also had a chance to see them forcing and dragging Aunt Veny. ...
http://www.cphpost.dk/get/82118.html. http://jimball.com.au/features/Political%20%20uproar%20over%20mufti's%20rmearks%2 0-The%20Copenhagen%20Post.htm Quote:

2005: In Copenhagen, a islamic mufti and scholar, Shahid Mehdi said women who don’t wear a headscarf are asking to be raped.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Muslim-leaders-rape-comments-under-fires/2005/04/27/1114462095594.html# Quote:

Australians were outraged when Lebanese Sheik Faiz Mohammed informed that rape victims had no one to blame but themselves. Women invited men to rape them
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/60minutes/main617270.shtml Quote:

The BBC pulled a documentary scheduled for screening in 2004, after police in Britain warned it could increase racial tension. “In these exceptional circumstances... Channel 4 as a responsible broadcaster has agreed to the police’s request...” The documentary was to show how Pakistani and other Muslim men sexually abused young, white English girls as young as 11.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/07/21/1121539094208.html Quote:

In Australia's New South Wales Supreme Court in December 2005, a visiting Pakistani rapist testified that his victims had no right to say no, because they were not wearing a headscarf.
http://smh.com.au/articles/2005/07/23/1121539188881.html Quote:

in 2004, the London Telegraph reported that visiting Egyptian scholar Sheik Yusaf al-Qaradawi claimed female rape victims should be punished if they were dressed immodestly when they were raped. He added, “For her to be absolved from guilt, a raped woman must have shown good conduct.”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/002584.php Quote:

In Sudan – where Arab Muslims slaughter black Muslim and Christian Sudanese in an ongoing genocide – former Sudanese slave and now a human rights’ activist Simon Deng says he witnessed girls and women being raped and that the Arab regime of Khartoum sends its soldiers to the field to rape and murder. In other reports, women who are captured by government forces are asked; “Are you Christian or Muslim?” and those who answer Christian, are gang raped before having their breasts cut off.
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece Quote:

While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo's population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases, with 20 percent being women of foreign background.
http://sydsvenskan.se/malmo/article89626.ece (traduction http://www.phillyimc.org/en/2005/06/15641.shtml) http://www.hvk.org/articles/0205/22.html Quote:

467 rapes against children under the age of 15 were reported in 2004 compared with 258 in 1995. Legal proceedings continue this week in a case involving a 13 year old girl from Motala who was said to have been subjected to a group rape by four men. (Note: These four men were Kurdish Muslims, who raped the girl for hours and even took photos of doing so) ... rape can indeed be linked to Islamic teachings of Jihad, and even to the example of Muhammad himself, his Sunna. Above all, it is connected to Islamic notions of the role of women in society, and their behaviour in the public sphere. ... The German journalist Udo Ulfkotte told in a recent interview that in Holland, you can now see examples of young, unveiled Moroccan women with a so-called "smiley". It means that the girl gets one side of her face cut up from mouth to ear, serving as a warning to other Muslim girls who should refuse to wear the veil. In the Muslim suburb of Courneuve, France, 77 per cent of the veiled women carry veils reportedly because of fear of being harassed or molested by Islamic moral patrols. Hijab, the Islamic veil, is thus not ”just a piece of cloth”. It serves as [b]a demarcation line between proper, submissive Muslim women and whores, un-Islamic women who deserve no respect and are asking for rape. The veil should more properly be viewed as the uniform of a Totalitarian movement, and a signal to attack those outside the movement.... the Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet reported that 65 percent of rapes of Norwegian women were performed by "non-Western" immigrants – a category that, in Norway, consists mostly of Muslims. The article quoted a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo (note: her name is Unni Wikan) as saying that "Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. The professor's conclusion was not that Muslim men living in the West needed to adjust to Western norms, but the exact opposite: "Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it." ... the safety of young Scandinavian women is sacrificed in order to keep the glossy image of a multicultural society intact. It is a chilling demonstration of an Eurabian continent that now appears to care more about not upsetting relations with its immigrant population than about protecting its own citizens.
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12/immigrant-rape-wave-in-sweden.html Quote:

The number of rape charges in Sweden has tripled in just above twenty years. Rape cases involving children under the age of 15 are six - 6 - times as common today as they were a generation ago. ... According to a new study from the Crime Prevention Council, Brå, it is four times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born in Sweden. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects. ... Lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm, who has investigated violent crimes in Svea high court, found that 85 per cent of the convicted rapists were born on foreign soil or by foreign parents. ... A group of Swedish teenage girls has designed a belt that requires two hands to remove and which they hope will deter would-be rapists. "It's like a reverse chastity belt," one of the creators, 19-year-old Nadja Björk, told AFP, meaning that the wearer is in control, instead of being controlled. Björk and one of her partners now plan to start a business to mass produce the belts and are currently in negotiations with potential partners. "But I'm not doing this for the money," she said. "I'm really passionate about stopping rape. I think it's terrible." In an online readers' poll from the newspaper Aftonbladet, 82% of the women expressed fear to go outside after dark. There are reports of rapes happening in broad daylight. 30 guests in a Swedish public bath watched as a 17-year-old girl was raped recently, and nobody did anything. The girl was first approached by 16-year-old boy. He and his friends followed her as she walked away to the grotto, and inside the grotto he got her blocked in the corner, ripped off her bikini and raped her, while his friend held her firm. There are even reports of Swedish girls being attacked and cut with knives on the dance floor. A 21-year-old man who came to Sweden a couple of years ago admits that he has a low opinion of Swedish females –or “whores” as he calls them. He is now prosecuted, suspected of cutting eight girls in several pubs. He is also charged with raping a girl at a private party, and with sexually harassing another girl in the apartment. Several witnesses claim that the 21 year old has said that he hates Swedish women. ... “It is not as wrong raping a Swedish girl as raping an Arab girl,” says Hamid. “The Swedish girl gets a lot of help afterwards, and she had probably fudged before, anyway. But the Arab girl will get problems with her family. For her, being raped is a source of shame. It is important that she retains her virginity until she marries.” It was no coincidence that it was a Swedish girl that was gang raped in Rissne – this becomes obvious from the discussion with Ali, Hamid, Abdallah and Richard. All four have disparaging views on Swedish girls, and think this attitude is common among young men with immigrant background. “It is far too easy to get a Swedish whore…… girl, I mean;” says Hamid, and laughs over his own choice of words. “Many immigrant boys have Swedish girlfriends when they are teenagers. But when they get married, they get a proper woman from their own culture who has never been with a boy. That’s what I am going to do. I don’t have too much respect for Swedish girls. I guess you can say they get fudged to pieces.” The number of rapes committed by Muslim immigrants in Western nations are so extremely high that it is difficult to view them only as random acts of individuals. It resembles warfare. Muhammad himself had forced sex (rape) with several of his slave girls/concubines. This is perfectly allowed, both in the sunna and in the Koran. If you postulate that many of the Muslims in Europe view themselves as a conquering army and that European women are simply war booty, it all makes perfect sense and is in full accordance with Islamic law. Western women are not so much regarded by most Muslims as individuals, but as "their women," the women who "belong" to hostile Infidels. They are booty, to be taken, just as the land of the Infidels someday will drop, it is believed, into Muslim hand. This is not mere crime, but ideologically-justified crime or rather, in Muslim eyes, attacks on Infidels scarcely qualify as crime..
Western women are cheap and offensive. Article by Paul Sheehan, Sydney Morning Herald. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/738736/posts

Quote: The group terrorised western Sydney in August 2000, attacking seven women during a three-week spree that was planned and co-ordinated by mobile phone. ... One 18-year-old girl was lured from a railway station and assaulted up to 25 times by 14 men. The trial judge called the ringleader "a menace to civilised society" and said the rapes were of a nature usually seen only in war zones. ... Police were at pains to point out that the offenders were of "Middle Eastern appearance" and that all the victims were white. ... He noted that one victim, according to her testimony, was called "an Aussie pig", while another was told she would be raped "Leb-style". Another girl was asked if she preferred giving oral sex to Lebanese or Australian men. Now beyond the sexual urges, I think there is something hidden in these rape spree (I came to this conclusion because I read an article where a palestinian sheiks was soliciting palestinians to rape israeli women, as they are the women of the ennemy, and must be treated like the women of the ennemy were treated by mohamed, i.e. enslaved and sexualy enslaved):
Quote:

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/index.php How can muslims defend the Rape of Captives of war? How can this be justified? Muslims don't see it as rape. They see it as satisfying the captured womens needs: The Attributes of the Believers as Defined in Surah Al-Mu'minun 2/2
http://www.islam.org.au/articles/19/tafseer.htm Quote: ...
(1) Two categories of women have been excluded from the general command of guarding the private parts: wives and women who are legally in one's possession, i.e. slave girls. Thus, the verse clearly lays down the law that one is allowed to have sexual relations with one's slave-girl as with one's wife, the basis being possession and not marriage. ... ...Hence, when captives in war fall as bondswomen, it was permissible for Muslims to have sexual relations with those who they possessed. This sexual relation is to satisfy the natural need of the captured women... and of course being held as a slave by muslims must be seen as a mercy
: http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=1928 Quote:
What is the ruling of Slavery in Islam? Allah is our creator and ultimate Master. We, as his creations and slaves are obliged to express our servitude to Him Alone. If one does not submit his slavery to Allah, which of course is far more heinous and unjust to Allah in comparison to the 'injustices' of slavery and sexual relationship, etc. by a human master. Since the human being did not willingly submit to the ultimate Master, Allah, He condemns them to the unwilling slavery of his sincere slaves. And by understanding the powers of a man master, they may understand the Powers of the True Master, Allah. In fact, the concept of slavery should be regarded as a concept of mercy, as the heinous crime of rejecting Allah as our Master demands immediate terminating of life. Allah, our kind Master, has granted an opportunity to his very negators to enjoy a second chance of life and redirect it to the right avenue by submitting to Him as the ultimate Master. and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best Mufti Ebrahim Desai FATWA DEPT.

Islam is a terrible religion. We know this.

Isn't that intersting that the term "fundamentalists" is mainly reserved for Christians, if you think about it, secular-feminism sometimes goes way over the edge.
There is radicalsim in secularism as much, you can see it by an anti Christian campaign in US, Oreilly on Fox broadcasts much about it.
To say that abuse of women is only by religious people is a form of anti Christian secularists fundamentalists.

Amazon.com: Buddhist Women on the Edge: Contemporary Perspectives ...Mostly fine essays on varied Buddhist women & issues, June 2, 2005 ... about men and women who abuse and undervalue women practitioners the most. ...
www.amazon.com/Buddhist-Women-Edge-Contemporary-Perspectives/dp/1556432038
There is not one group that is exempt from this domastic issue.

Catholic Priests Abused Women, tooInteresting... according to a Salon article, statistics show that half of the victims of sexual abuse at the hands of priests are women; something I've been ...
www.commonplacebook.com/current_events/politics/interesting_acc.shtm
It seems that it is not only a matter of abusing minors.
Then again we should know that most Catholics are decent, this is in reply to racist moutain_hare's outrageous thread about picking this crime on only ONE group of people.

Time for some low-brow humour:

As Dave Attel said: I saw a woman in a bar and was like, "hey, she's pretty hot!" But then she turned around and had a huge shiner. So then I thought: Oh -great-. Another woman who doesn't listen.

p.j. Thanks for making me smile.

A pleasure.

I followed that link to Amazon and didn't find anything there that would bring the word "abuse" to my mind. Perhaps I missed something but I think that was a little inflammatory. "Undervalue," sure. But Buddhists "undervalue" everything tangible, it's their shtick, including, apparently, people. No big surprise. If you can hold it in your hand it ain't worth shit. It's a religion for people who would like to find some other way out of the Neolithic Era besides civilization.

It would appear from your links that these crimes/views are from either extremely backward rural areas or are committed/expressed by immigrants leaving either the ME, Afghanistan or Pakistan.

Is this what you mean by mainstream Islam?

Can you tell me in the US, what is:

1. the incidence of rape ?

2. the incidence of child abuse?

3. the incidence of human trafficking?

ISLAM'S CRIME OF (ENCOURAGING ON) RAPING WOMEN

Not too many in the west were so exposed to that awful truth as lately with:

Imam justifies rape of unveiled women Ynetnews - Oct 26, 2006 Australia's top Muslim cleric rationalized a series of gang rapes by Arab ... The cleric also said the judge in the case, who sentenced ... "The uncovered meat is the ... http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3320149,00.html

Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks The Australian, Australia - Oct 25, 2006... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat? ... by Sheik Hilali's remarks, insisting the cleric was no ... Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali - who does not ... http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html

Sheikh Al Hilaly is quoted as comparing some women to uncovered ...ABC Online, Australia - Oct 27, 2006... not wear the hijab, or headdress, are like uncovered meat. ... quotes, taken from a sermon the cleric made in ... Channel 7, Mr Costello said the Muslim community must ... http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1773857.htm

Outrage at Mufti's Rape Remarks오마이뉴스, South Korea - Oct 26, 2006Australia's highest Islamic cleric, Sheik Taj Din Al Hilaly has sparked ... "The uncovered meat is the ... of vicious gang rapes by a gang of young Muslim men against ... http://www.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?at_code=369328


_______________

Related:


The Ten O'Clock Scholar: Islam Encourages Rape And Slavery
Islam Encourages Rape And Slavery. An interesting new blog out of Norway, that discusses Islamic infiltration of Scandinavia, and the difficulties of ...

Islam Encourages Rape And Slavery An interesting new blog out of Norway, that discusses Islamic infiltration of Scandinavia, and the difficulties of confronting it due to Political Correctness. See the conclusion to this entry:


http://thetenoclockscholar.blogspot.com/2005/02/islam-encourages-rape-and-slavery_21.html

____________

The following is from http://FaithFreedom.org

____________


Search the site found: http://www.islam-watch.org/ and you find what you need or you look for their source.

Here it is: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21502 This article is a follow up of this one, focusing on Australia: http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/readarticle.asp?ID=20535&p=1

But a more general article about world-wide muslim gang rape spree is to be found here: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20646 I read this article in frontpagemag a few months ago. I was disapointed they didn't put the links to all the newspapers they took information from. You know when you post frontpagemag, muslims and liberals just go crazy: they claims it is conservative lies and so on... So I researched longly and found almost all the mainstream's international newspapers articles cited. Now these international articles are maybe old and not on-line anymore, but I have read all the following articles and all what frontpagemag claims was in these articles when I read them. Here are the links: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4656245.stm Quote:


Christian Solidarity Worldwide reported that in April 2005, a 9-year-old Pakistani girl was raped, beaten with a cricket bat, hanged upside down from the ceiling, and repeatedly bashed while handcuffed. Her Muslim neighbors informed her they were doing it because she was an “infidel and a Christian.”
http://tw-women.formosa.org/act2.html http://www.nyct.net/~china/ic_8_facts.html Quote:

At 9.15 am, a huge crowd had gathered around the apartment. They screamed, "Let's butcher the Chinese!", "Let's eat pigs!", "Let's have a party!". We lived on the 7th floor ... Inside, we could heard girls, whose age around 10-12, screaming, "Mommy... Mommy..." "Mom... Mom... it hurts.." ... Uncle Dodi kept trying to persuade them by offering money, but the effort was fruitless. And in the end they forcedly raped Veny. Not able to stand all of this anymore, I cried and closed my eyes. There were about 5 people who raped Veny, and before beginning, everyone always said, "Allahu akbar" (and Islamic phrase in Arabic, meaning "God is the greatest"). They were ferocious, brutal. Not long afterward, around 9 men came to the room and dragged me. I also had a chance to see them forcing and dragging Aunt Veny. ...
http://www.cphpost.dk/get/82118.html. http://jimball.com.au/features/Political%20%20uproar%20over%20mufti's%20rmearks%2 0-The%20Copenhagen%20Post.htm Quote:

2005: In Copenhagen, a islamic mufti and scholar, Shahid Mehdi said women who don’t wear a headscarf are asking to be raped.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Muslim-leaders-rape-comments-under-fires/2005/04/27/1114462095594.html# Quote:

Australians were outraged when Lebanese Sheik Faiz Mohammed informed that rape victims had no one to blame but themselves. Women invited men to rape them
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/60minutes/main617270.shtml Quote:

The BBC pulled a documentary scheduled for screening in 2004, after police in Britain warned it could increase racial tension. “In these exceptional circumstances... Channel 4 as a responsible broadcaster has agreed to the police’s request...” The documentary was to show how Pakistani and other Muslim men sexually abused young, white English girls as young as 11.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/07/21/1121539094208.html Quote:

In Australia's New South Wales Supreme Court in December 2005, a visiting Pakistani rapist testified that his victims had no right to say no, because they were not wearing a headscarf.
http://smh.com.au/articles/2005/07/23/1121539188881.html Quote:

in 2004, the London Telegraph reported that visiting Egyptian scholar Sheik Yusaf al-Qaradawi claimed female rape victims should be punished if they were dressed immodestly when they were raped. He added, “For her to be absolved from guilt, a raped woman must have shown good conduct.”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/002584.php Quote:

In Sudan – where Arab Muslims slaughter black Muslim and Christian Sudanese in an ongoing genocide – former Sudanese slave and now a human rights’ activist Simon Deng says he witnessed girls and women being raped and that the Arab regime of Khartoum sends its soldiers to the field to rape and murder. In other reports, women who are captured by government forces are asked; “Are you Christian or Muslim?” and those who answer Christian, are gang raped before having their breasts cut off.
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece Quote:

While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo's population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases, with 20 percent being women of foreign background.
http://sydsvenskan.se/malmo/article89626.ece (traduction http://www.phillyimc.org/en/2005/06/15641.shtml) http://www.hvk.org/articles/0205/22.html Quote:

467 rapes against children under the age of 15 were reported in 2004 compared with 258 in 1995. Legal proceedings continue this week in a case involving a 13 year old girl from Motala who was said to have been subjected to a group rape by four men. (Note: These four men were Kurdish Muslims, who raped the girl for hours and even took photos of doing so) ... rape can indeed be linked to Islamic teachings of Jihad, and even to the example of Muhammad himself, his Sunna. Above all, it is connected to Islamic notions of the role of women in society, and their behaviour in the public sphere. ... The German journalist Udo Ulfkotte told in a recent interview that in Holland, you can now see examples of young, unveiled Moroccan women with a so-called "smiley". It means that the girl gets one side of her face cut up from mouth to ear, serving as a warning to other Muslim girls who should refuse to wear the veil. In the Muslim suburb of Courneuve, France, 77 per cent of the veiled women carry veils reportedly because of fear of being harassed or molested by Islamic moral patrols. Hijab, the Islamic veil, is thus not ”just a piece of cloth”. It serves as [b]a demarcation line between proper, submissive Muslim women and whores, un-Islamic women who deserve no respect and are asking for rape. The veil should more properly be viewed as the uniform of a Totalitarian movement, and a signal to attack those outside the movement.... the Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet reported that 65 percent of rapes of Norwegian women were performed by "non-Western" immigrants – a category that, in Norway, consists mostly of Muslims. The article quoted a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo (note: her name is Unni Wikan) as saying that "Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. The professor's conclusion was not that Muslim men living in the West needed to adjust to Western norms, but the exact opposite: "Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it." ... the safety of young Scandinavian women is sacrificed in order to keep the glossy image of a multicultural society intact. It is a chilling demonstration of an Eurabian continent that now appears to care more about not upsetting relations with its immigrant population than about protecting its own citizens.
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12/immigrant-rape-wave-in-sweden.html Quote:

The number of rape charges in Sweden has tripled in just above twenty years. Rape cases involving children under the age of 15 are six - 6 - times as common today as they were a generation ago. ... According to a new study from the Crime Prevention Council, Brå, it is four times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born in Sweden. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects. ... Lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm, who has investigated violent crimes in Svea high court, found that 85 per cent of the convicted rapists were born on foreign soil or by foreign parents. ... A group of Swedish teenage girls has designed a belt that requires two hands to remove and which they hope will deter would-be rapists. "It's like a reverse chastity belt," one of the creators, 19-year-old Nadja Björk, told AFP, meaning that the wearer is in control, instead of being controlled. Björk and one of her partners now plan to start a business to mass produce the belts and are currently in negotiations with potential partners. "But I'm not doing this for the money," she said. "I'm really passionate about stopping rape. I think it's terrible." In an online readers' poll from the newspaper Aftonbladet, 82% of the women expressed fear to go outside after dark. There are reports of rapes happening in broad daylight. 30 guests in a Swedish public bath watched as a 17-year-old girl was raped recently, and nobody did anything. The girl was first approached by 16-year-old boy. He and his friends followed her as she walked away to the grotto, and inside the grotto he got her blocked in the corner, ripped off her bikini and raped her, while his friend held her firm. There are even reports of Swedish girls being attacked and cut with knives on the dance floor. A 21-year-old man who came to Sweden a couple of years ago admits that he has a low opinion of Swedish females –or “whores” as he calls them. He is now prosecuted, suspected of cutting eight girls in several pubs. He is also charged with raping a girl at a private party, and with sexually harassing another girl in the apartment. Several witnesses claim that the 21 year old has said that he hates Swedish women. ... “It is not as wrong raping a Swedish girl as raping an Arab girl,” says Hamid. “The Swedish girl gets a lot of help afterwards, and she had probably fudged before, anyway. But the Arab girl will get problems with her family. For her, being raped is a source of shame. It is important that she retains her virginity until she marries.” It was no coincidence that it was a Swedish girl that was gang raped in Rissne – this becomes obvious from the discussion with Ali, Hamid, Abdallah and Richard. All four have disparaging views on Swedish girls, and think this attitude is common among young men with immigrant background. “It is far too easy to get a Swedish whore…… girl, I mean;” says Hamid, and laughs over his own choice of words. “Many immigrant boys have Swedish girlfriends when they are teenagers. But when they get married, they get a proper woman from their own culture who has never been with a boy. That’s what I am going to do. I don’t have too much respect for Swedish girls. I guess you can say they get fudged to pieces.” The number of rapes committed by Muslim immigrants in Western nations are so extremely high that it is difficult to view them only as random acts of individuals. It resembles warfare. Muhammad himself had forced sex (rape) with several of his slave girls/concubines. This is perfectly allowed, both in the sunna and in the Koran. If you postulate that many of the Muslims in Europe view themselves as a conquering army and that European women are simply war booty, it all makes perfect sense and is in full accordance with Islamic law. Western women are not so much regarded by most Muslims as individuals, but as "their women," the women who "belong" to hostile Infidels. They are booty, to be taken, just as the land of the Infidels someday will drop, it is believed, into Muslim hand. This is not mere crime, but ideologically-justified crime or rather, in Muslim eyes, attacks on Infidels scarcely qualify as crime..
Western women are cheap and offensive. Article by Paul Sheehan, Sydney Morning Herald. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/738736/posts

Quote: The group terrorised western Sydney in August 2000, attacking seven women during a three-week spree that was planned and co-ordinated by mobile phone. ... One 18-year-old girl was lured from a railway station and assaulted up to 25 times by 14 men. The trial judge called the ringleader "a menace to civilised society" and said the rapes were of a nature usually seen only in war zones. ... Police were at pains to point out that the offenders were of "Middle Eastern appearance" and that all the victims were white. ... He noted that one victim, according to her testimony, was called "an Aussie pig", while another was told she would be raped "Leb-style". Another girl was asked if she preferred giving oral sex to Lebanese or Australian men. Now beyond the sexual urges, I think there is something hidden in these rape spree (I came to this conclusion because I read an article where a palestinian sheiks was soliciting palestinians to rape israeli women, as they are the women of the ennemy, and must be treated like the women of the ennemy were treated by mohamed, i.e. enslaved and sexualy enslaved):
Quote:

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/index.php How can muslims defend the Rape of Captives of war? How can this be justified? Muslims don't see it as rape. They see it as satisfying the captured womens needs: The Attributes of the Believers as Defined in Surah Al-Mu'minun 2/2
http://www.islam.org.au/articles/19/tafseer.htm Quote: ...
(1) Two categories of women have been excluded from the general command of guarding the private parts: wives and women who are legally in one's possession, i.e. slave girls. Thus, the verse clearly lays down the law that one is allowed to have sexual relations with one's slave-girl as with one's wife, the basis being possession and not marriage. ... ...Hence, when captives in war fall as bondswomen, it was permissible for Muslims to have sexual relations with those who they possessed. This sexual relation is to satisfy the natural need of the captured women... and of course being held as a slave by muslims must be seen as a mercy
: http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=1928 Quote:
What is the ruling of Slavery in Islam? Allah is our creator and ultimate Master. We, as his creations and slaves are obliged to express our servitude to Him Alone. If one does not submit his slavery to Allah, which of course is far more heinous and unjust to Allah in comparison to the 'injustices' of slavery and sexual relationship, etc. by a human master. Since the human being did not willingly submit to the ultimate Master, Allah, He condemns them to the unwilling slavery of his sincere slaves. And by understanding the powers of a man master, they may understand the Powers of the True Master, Allah. In fact, the concept of slavery should be regarded as a concept of mercy, as the heinous crime of rejecting Allah as our Master demands immediate terminating of life. Allah, our kind Master, has granted an opportunity to his very negators to enjoy a second chance of life and redirect it to the right avenue by submitting to Him as the ultimate Master. and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best Mufti Ebrahim Desai FATWA DEPT.

what would classify as "mainstream" to you?
the fact that this shit is on the radar, i.e. statistically is a material amount, would classify as mainstream to me. just because they live in some tribal area doesn't mean it's not mainstream. many people argue that Islam is still in the 7th century because many Muslims are primitive tribesmen

EDIT:
also, let's not forget that Iran, one of the most advanced/civilized Muslim countries, in my opinion, still hangs/stones girls/women for adultery or pre-marital sex, even if they were raped. so these practices are not restricted to "tribal areas"

what would classify as "mainstream" to you?
the fact that this shit is on the radar, i.e. statistically is a material amount, would classify as mainstream to me. just because they live in some tribal area doesn't mean it's not mainstream. many people argue that Islam is still in the 7th century because many Muslims are primitive tribesmen

There are always the greatest number of flies over the shit. Thats why its on the radar, because the radar follows the flies and focuses only on the shit. I am sure every country in the world has the backward uneducated class who do the same.

Just look at the figures for domestic violence world wide. Or child abuse, Or human trafficking. Are they all Muslims? Or living in the 7th century? Do they represent the mainstream culture of their country/religion?

when Eastern European pimps traffic women they fullwell know they are breaking the law. if they are caught, they are punished. this practice is frowned upon culturally and legally. whereas in some Muslim countries this is the culture and the law. there is the difference for you.


I am sure every country in the world has the backward uneducated class who do the same.
in Netherlands and Britain there indeed were cases of honour killings -- guess by whom!
and no, not every country's culture and law enables men to kill their sisters for sleeping with the wrong man.


Thats why its on the radar, because the radar follows the flies and focuses only on the shit.
whether the media ignores this altogether or focuses on it exclusively... the fact remains.

do you agree with my assertion that this is mainstream practice according to my reasoning?

when Eastern European pimps traffic women they fullwell know they are breaking the law. if they are caught, they are punished. this practice is frowned upon culturally and legally. whereas in some Muslim countries this is the culture and the law. there is the difference for you.

in Netherlands and Britain there indeed were cases of honour killings -- guess by whom!
and no, not every country's culture and law enables men to kill their sisters for sleeping with the wrong man.


whether the media ignores this altogether or focuses on it exclusively... the fact remains.

do you agree with my assertion that this is mainstream practice according to my reasoning?

In which Muslim culture is it the law to traffic women?

I'm not talking about honor killings, I'm talking about domestic violence.

Is there domestic violence in non-Muslim cultures? What is the reported incidence?

No its not mainstream practice because if it were then with 1.5 billion Muslims and so much media focus, there would be no space for any other news.

trafficking women... i think it's not as much of a problem as violence against women. but i think it exists, but not in the way it exists in Eastern Europe.


Is there domestic violence in non-Muslim cultures? What is the reported incidence?
non-Muslim culture (as opposed to countries), i doubt it. i mean, i can't speak for the 5 billion people out there... im talking about western 1st-world developed nations.

i'm sure it exists, but it is not part of the culture.

also, in the west it's part of the culture and law to protect women against violence (e.g. women shelters, pop-culture, etc.). again, there is no comparison.

trafficking women... i think it's not as much of a problem as violence against women. but i think it exists, but not in the way it exists in Eastern Europe.


non-Muslim culture (as opposed to countries), i doubt it. i mean, i can't speak for the 5 billion people out there... im talking about western 1st-world developed nations.

i'm sure it exists, but it is not part of the culture.

also, in the west it's part of the culture and law to protect women against violence (e.g. women shelters, pop-culture, etc.). again, there is no comparison.

So what is the reality in your opinion?

Where do we see the highest incidence of domestic violence and human trafficking?

trafficking women... i think it's not as much of a problem as violence against women. but i think it exists, but not in the way it exists in Eastern Europe.
Trafficking women is a violent act against women, or the women being trafficked.


non-Muslim culture (as opposed to countries), i doubt it. i mean, i can't speak for the 5 billion people out there... im talking about western 1st-world developed nations.

i'm sure it exists, but it is not part of the culture.

I think you'd be amazed at just how many women are violently abused in their own homes and how ingrained domestic violence actually is in Western culture.

For example:


United States
· Domestic violence occurs in one half of all American homes at least once a year. (US Department of Justice 2003)
· A woman is battered, usually by her husband/partner, every 15 seconds. (UN Study on the World’s Women, 2000)
· 28% of women reported at least one episode of physical violence from their partner. (A, UNICEF 2000)
· Women accounted for 85% of the victims of domestic violence in 1999 (671,110 compared to 120,100 men). (A, UN Special Rapporteur on violence against women, its causes and consequences 2003)
· Black women have a 35% greater chance than white women of becoming victims of violence within the family and 22 times greater chance than women from other races. (US Department of Justice May 2000)
· Over 30% of murdered women are killed by a partner. (US Department of Justice, 2000)
· 23 women a week were killed by intimates in 1999. (E, Joni Seager 2003)
Link (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGACT770362004)

Lets not forget also that many women never come forward to report the violence against them.


also, in the west it's part of the culture and law to protect women against violence (e.g. women shelters, pop-culture, etc.). again, there is no comparison.
Heh!

You sure about that? That is the ideal after all. But I think reality is a tad different.

Were you even aware that there are some states in the US who make a distinction between marital rape and stranger rape? The result is that those accused and found guilty of marital rape get a lesser penalty compared to a person found guilty of stranger rape. I could go on and on but frankly can't be bothered at the moment.

Women shelters, while they do provide some form of shelter are also not always safe. Many women do go back to their abusive partners due to lack of support from the community in general and from society as well. Family pressure, even on those women who manage to make it to a shelter, can result in the woman feeling compelled to return to her spouse. Pop-culture? Music wise women are denigrated in many songs and clips, as well as in many forms of art.

Bells, how do you feel about beauty pageants?

what would classify as "mainstream" to you?
the fact that this shit is on the radar, i.e. statistically is a material amount, would classify as mainstream to me. just because they live in some tribal area doesn't mean it's not mainstream.


Is this mainstream American culture?



As many as 50,000 women and children from Asia, Latin America and Eastern Europe are brought to the United States and forced to work as prostitutes or servants. In the United States during the past two years, the government has prosecuted cases involving fewer than 300 victims. In other countries where this problem is frequent, the prosecution rate is even lower.



Child sex tourism is a growing phenomenon in today's rapidly shrinking world, as access to and information about other countries becomes easier and easier to obtain. More than two million children are enslaved in the child sex trade. The demand for child prostitutes comes both locally and internationally. Reports indicate that perhaps 25 percent of sex tourists are Americans.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/09/10/child.exploitation/index.html


"The three-year study, funded in part by the U.S. Department of Justice, analyzed the problem of sexual exploitation -- particularly commercial sexual exploitation -- of children in the United States, Canada and Mexico.

"Child sexual exploitation is the most hidden form of child abuse in the U.S. and North America today," said Richard J. Estes, co-author of the study. "It is the nation's least recognized epidemic."

He said the findings debunked many myths about what kind of children are involved in sexual exploitation.


Study summary
Among the findings of a study titled "The Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children in the U.S., Canada and Mexico":

# 325,000 children are sexually exploited in the United States annually. Of that figure, 121,911 ran away from home and 51,602 were thrown out of their homes by a parent or guardian.

# 25 percent of exploiters of children are other children.

# Children who engage in prostitution can earn between $200 and $1,500 per day.

# 75 percent of children who are victims of commercial sexual exploitation are from middle class backgrounds.

# 40 percent of the girls who engaged in prostitution were sexually abused at home, as were 30 percent of the boys.


"Seventy-five percent of the children we met on the streets are children from working class and middle class families and the simple majority of them are white," Estes said.



The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency estimates that 50,000 people are trafficked into or transited through the U.S.A. annually as sex slaves, domestics, garment, and agricultural slaves.

http://www.gvnet.com/humantrafficking/USA.htm

"


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A study released Monday revealed that between 300,000 and 400,000 U.S. children -- many from middle class homes -- are victims of some type of sexual exploitation every year.

The three-year study, funded in part by the U.S. Department of Justice, analyzed the problem of sexual exploitation -- particularly commercial sexual exploitation -- of children in the United States, Canada and Mexico.

"Child sexual exploitation is the most hidden form of child abuse in the U.S. and North America today," said Richard J. Estes, co-author of the study. "It is the nation's least recognized epidemic."

He said the findings debunked many myths about what kind of children are involved in sexual exploitation.
Study summary
Among the findings of a study titled "The Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children in the U.S., Canada and Mexico":

# 325,000 children are sexually exploited in the United States annually. Of that figure, 121,911 ran away from home and 51,602 were thrown out of their homes by a parent or guardian.

# 25 percent of exploiters of children are other children.

# Children who engage in prostitution can earn between $200 and $1,500 per day.

# 75 percent of children who are victims of commercial sexual exploitation are from middle class backgrounds.

# 40 percent of the girls who engaged in prostitution were sexually abused at home, as were 30 percent of the boys.

Source: The Associated Press

"Seventy-five percent of the children we met on the streets are children from working class and middle class families and the simple majority of them are white," Estes said.

"One of the other myths is that this is a problem [of] poor, inner city, mostly minority youth. We cannot confirm that to be the case, but rather just the opposite."

Those who perpetrate sex crimes against children come from all parts of society and include relatives and other adults known and trusted by the children or their families, he said.

"Despite popular notions to the contrary," Estes said, "strangers commit fewer than 4 percent of all the sexual assaults against children."

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/09/10/child.exploitation/index.html


While many women began to flock to the sex trade during the 1960s as a conscious decision to support their families, it was not until the influx of US soldiers during the Vietnam War that the trafficking trade developed to meet the demand, and traffickers began to kidnap women and children and forced them into the industry. Despite the departure of most soldiers by 1975, the sex trade developed such a strong infrastructure that it solidified, and the suppression of prostitution by communist authorities in all surrounding countries left Thailand as the only country in Southeast Asia offering these services. According to Gary Haugen, President and CEO for the International Justice Mission (IJM), an organization currently working in Thailand to free young girls from sex trafficking, “There is no question that the US bears a significant measure of responsibility for the sex industry in Southeast Asia… American sex tourists are still a large part of that demand.” In fact, Western tourists are still the number one consumers of child prostitution in Thailand.
http://hir.harvard.edu/articles/1255/


Human trafficking is a serious problem in the United States and throughout the world. Each year, an estimated 600,000-800,000 men, women, and children are trafficked against their will across international borders 14,500-17,500 of whom are trafficked into the United States. Victimsof trafficking are recruited, transported, or sold into all forms of forced labor and servitude, including prostitution, sweatshops, domestic labor, farming, and child armies. Approximately 80 percent of trafficking victims are female, and 70 percent of those female victims are trafficked for the commercial sex industry.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/traffic/

Or this? Is this mainstream American/Western culture?


http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

Violence Against Women in the United States

MURDER. Every day four women die in this country as a result of domestic violence, the euphemism for murders and assaults by husbands and boyfriends. That's approximately 1,400 women a year, according to the FBI. The number of women who have been murdered by their intimate partners is greater than the number of soldiers killed in the Vietnam War.

BATTERING. Although only 572,000 reports of assault by intimates are officially reported to federal officials each year, the most conservative estimates indicate two to four million women of all races and classes are battered each year. At least 170,000 of those violent incidents are serious enough to require hospitalization, emergency room care or a doctor's attention.

SEXUAL ASSAULT. Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they have been victims of rape or attempted rape, and more than half of them knew their attackers. It's estimated that two to six times that many women are raped, but do not report it. Every year 1.2 million women are forcibly raped by their current or former male partners, some more than once.




* Women are much more likely than men to be killed by an intimate partner. In 2000, intimate partner homicides accounted for 33.5 percent of the murders of women and less than four percent of the murders of men.17
* Pregnant and recently pregnant women are more likely to be victims of homicide than to die of any other cause18 , and evidence exists that a significant proportion of all female homicide victims are killed by their intimate partners.19
* Research suggests that injury related deaths, including homicide and suicide, account for approximately one-third of all maternal mortality cases, while medical reasons make up the rest. But, homicide is the leading cause of death overall for pregnant women, followed by cancer, acute and chronic respiratory conditions, motor vehicle collisions and drug overdose, peripartum and postpartum cardiomyopthy, and suicide.20

http://www.endabuse.org/resources/facts/

So that all proves that Islamic law is superior to Western law for women and children?

So that all proves that Islamic law is superior to Western law for women and children?

No it proves that there are a**holes everywhere.

sam and Bells,

you have yet to show that this awful behaviour is part of western culture (i.e. that it's accepted by all) and law (that husbands that kick their wife for insulting them do not go to jail if charges are brought forward)



United States
· Domestic violence occurs in one half of all American homes at least once a year. (US Department of Justice 2003)
... and other stats

i find this one extremely hard to believe. this means that if you pick ANY apartment building in America, and in full half of the apartments there, the guy hit his wife at least once in the past year.

furthermore, assuming that these stats are correct, how much worse do you think it is in these tribal areas?

what is your point anyway? to say "we are bad too"? ok. i agree. there are women who have it pretty bad. but however bad they have it, it's not 1/10th as bad as it is in the Muslim world.

sam and Bells,

you have yet to show that this awful behaviour is part of western culture (i.e. that it's accepted by all) and law (that husbands that kick their wife for insulting them do not go to jail if charges are brought forward)
.

So its a coincidence that so many women/children are abused? Even though it is unacceptable?

Also,


Available data greatly underestimate the true magnitude of the problem. Rape is one of the most underreported crimes. In 2002, only 39% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials (DOJ 2003).
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/svfacts.htm


In other words, the reported statistics are not even half of the problem.



i find this one extremely hard to believe. this means that if you pick ANY apartment building in America, and in full half of the apartments there, the guy hit his wife at least once in the past year.

Yes, isn't it?



furthermore, assuming that these stats are correct, how much worse do you think it is in these tribal areaswhat is your point anyway? to say "we are bad too"? ok. i agree. there are women who have it pretty bad. but however bad they have it, it's not 1/10th as bad as it is in the Muslim world

Then you will have no problem getting statistics to back this claim.
Or should we just trust your "feelings" about Muslims?

Let's look at it this way, if it was legal to kick the shit out of women in America, then there'd be alot more of it goin' on.

Let's look at it this way, if it was legal to kick the shit out of women in America, then there'd be alot more of it goin' on.

Is that your opinion of mainstream Westerners?

Oh come on.

Oh come on.

Exactly.:)

Do you think there would be less abuse of women if it were legal?

Sam?

Then you will have no problem getting statistics to back this claim.
yes... statistics... i'm sure there are statisticians going around, tent to tent, asking for these savages questions relating to their family honour
oh yes, there is plenty of statistical data!
there's as much of it as there is statistical data about dead statisticians in Muslim countries


Or should we just trust your "feelings" about Muslims?
it's all my paranoia (http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=621) and Islamophobia (http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=443)... if only i wasn't so damn delusional (http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=184)

i cant link directly to the videos but if u're interested go to www.memritv.org, and do a search of any islamic country re: women. you will find no surprises there.

EDIT:
well, maybe Bells and Sam will?

Do you think there would be less abuse of women if it were legal?

I think the abuse of women is a power issue in relationships. To decrease it, we need strong family and community ties. Women are far more likely to confide in a friend or relative than to law enforcement.

After living for 5 years in Saudi Arabia, I have come to the conclusion that reports about women in the Muslim world are based on Western concepts of how they believe the women feel. In five years in a city hospital, I saw ONE case of domestic violence and it was where a woman beat up her maidservant.

I am pretty sure that women are abused all over the world, but connecting it to Islam when it is prevalent to equal or greater extent in countries that call themselves progressive is just sheer prejudice.

yes... statistics... i'm sure there are statisticians going around, tent to tent, asking for these savages questions relating to their family honour
oh yes, there is plenty of statistical data!
there's as much of it as there is statistical data about dead statisticians in Muslim countries


it's all my paranoia (http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=621) and Islamophobia (http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=443)... if only i wasn't so damn delusional (http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=184)

i cant link directly to the videos but if u're interested go to www.memritv.org, and do a search of any islamic country re: women. you will find no surprises there.

EDIT:
well, maybe Bells and Sam will?


And this proves what?

That people open the Quran to get permission to sleep with their wives?

That they whack them in a friendly manner because the Prophet did so? (btw was the Prophets bedroom being broadcast live?)

Or that abuse in Muslim countries is a hidden matter which is why everyone knows it goes on?

Please give valid support for your arguments, not translations by MEMRI.


MEMRI was founded in 1998 by its president Yigal Carmon, a retired colonel from Israeli military intelligence, and the academic Dr. Meyrav Wurmser (http://www.irc-online.org/rightweb/ind/wurmser_m/wurmser-m.html)

In five years in a city hospital, I saw ONE case of domestic violence and it was where a woman beat up her maidservant.
for starters, it was probably a slave... not a maidservant


I have come to the conclusion that reports about women in the Muslim world are based on Western concepts of how they believe the women feel.
the more educated amongst us stupid westerners realize that since women have no recourse, they don't really have any options... and thus are far less likely to report domestic abuse than western women. there are no laws or organizations to help you out, and the Islamic law that the government enforces, that is supposed to protect you, in fact endorses beating women "lightly" (just not in the face). what is "lightly" is open for interpretation

to make matters worse, the husband that gave you the black eye is the only male that is allowed to chaperone you to the hospital. going there by yourself will get you arrested and probably some lashes

and re: "how women feel", considering the wide cultural and legal acceptance of this bullshit, women are conditioned to believe that it's OK

for starters, it was probably a slave... not a maidservant


the more educated amongst us stupid westerners realize that since women have no recourse, they don't really have any options... and thus are far less likely to report domestic abuse than western women. there are no laws or organizations to help you out, and the Islamic law that the government enforces, that is supposed to protect you, in fact endorses beating women "lightly" (just not in the face). what is "lightly" is open for interpretation

to make matters worse, the husband that gave you the black eye is the only male that is allowed to chaperone you to the hospital. going there by yourself will get you arrested and probably some lashes

and re: "how women feel", considering the wide cultural and legal acceptance of this bullshit, women are conditioned to believe that it's OK

Is this an opinion or fact? Please support your assertions.

* fact: women don't have legal recourse against domestic violence

* fact: it's illegal in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, other Muslim countries for a woman to leave her tent/house without a male escort who is either your husband or brother or father

* opinion: if a husband beat up his wife, he is unlikely to escort her to the hospital or to a non-existant womans' shelter

* fact: not all battery requires hospitalization

EDIT:

* fact: it's far worse for women in the Muslim world (re: safety from physical violence)

* fact: women don't have legal recourse against domestic violence

* fact: it's illegal in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, other Muslim countries for a woman to leave her tent/house without a male escort who is either your husband or brother or father

* opinion: if a husband beat up his wife, he is unlikely to escort her to the hospital or to a non-existant womans' shelter

* fact: not all battery requires hospitalization

EDIT:

* fact: it's far worse for women in the Muslim world (re: safety from physical violence)


Why not read what Arab women have to say?


Many people have told Abdussamed that she is very “Americanized.” “I tell them, no, I’m not. This is just how I live ... This is how my parents lived … We conduct our life just exactly how I and my husband grew up.”

Arab women are no different from American women, she insists. “We have the same concerns, same problems, same hopes for our kids and family. (We might) have our customs and things which are different (that) you don’t want to give up because this is what makes us a Libyan, an Arab or a Muslim from that country.”

She adds, “Everybody thinks that Arab women are … veiled women who don’t have any rights. They’re ignorant; they don’t have any education; they just follow what the husband says (and) every Muslim man is married to four women.”

In actuality, the Qur’an dictates that women are on an equal footing with men. Islam grants women the right to vote, the right to own property and the right to be educated, among other things. But sometimes traditions may be misinterpreted as religious impositions.


As she expected, the teenagers had many misperceptions about Arab women. They thought Arab women were subservient and behind the times; that they didn’t have the right to go out, were not free to do as they chose, and that all they did was cook and clean. “So when they saw me that was a surprise. I talked to them and explained to them what I did in my life. (And I said) I am not the only one in Saudi Arabia, there are lots of women like me,” says Taibah. “(I also told them) I am really tired of defending my religion and culture. This is who I am and this is my culture and I am really happy with it. I don’t have any complaints about it.”



http://www.seattlewomanmagazine.com/dec06-4.htm


I worked 5 years in Saudi Arabia and based on my personal experiences with women there (take it or leave it), this is how Arab women are.

Jewish intellectuals are the most influential promoters of feminism, but in non-Israeli countries only: a feminized Gentile male is less likely to be anti-Semitic. But they sure don't promote it in Israel, and the radically conservative Jews go so far as to push to legally give males legal ownership of the females.

OMG, the j00z are turning our wimmenz against us!!1

Why then do the Israeli jews have such a low birthrate? In a few decades, arabs will be a majority in Israel. Most Israeli jews are liberal and secular and have a lifestyle more or less similar to Americans.

How'd you come to that bizarre conclusion about feminism in Israel?

In actuality, the Qur’an dictates ...
somebody forgot to inform the Saudi royal family what the Qur'an dictates...

man this is as asinine a reply as when people blame some Muslims for terrorism, some guy says "it can't be Muslims since Islam forbids this and that".

well ok, then who the fuck is Osama?

you posted some woman's opinion. it's not really a rebuttle to my facts/opinion post. can you reply to it line by line? i'd like to see you denying any of it :)

* fact: women don't have legal recourse against domestic violence

False

Women can divorce husbands who are abusive. Divorce is very easy in Muslims, all a woman has to do is call a qadi and inform him.



* fact: it's illegal in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, other Muslim countries for a woman to leave her tent/house without a male escort who is either your husband or brother or father

False, they do it all the time. I did too.


* opinion: if a husband beat up his wife, he is unlikely to escort her to the hospital or to a non-existant womans' shelter

False, he will have to look after the children, his wifes mother/family or his mother/family will visit on a regular basis. Plus Arab women are usually strong willed and tend to rule the roost at home.


* fact: not all battery requires hospitalization

No it does not. But women talk. A lot.


EDIT:

* fact: it's far worse for women in the Muslim world (re: safety from physical violence)


All hypothetical ranting, with no substance.

somebody forgot to inform the Saudi royal family what the Qur'an dictates...



Nobody forgot; after taking over all the tribes, the Saud family established these laws to keep the different tribes under control.


man this is as asinine a reply as when people blame some Muslims for terrorism, some guy says "it can't be Muslims since Islam forbids this and that".


Only if you say Islam says this and that.


well ok, then who the fuck is Osama?

And this is related to women and Islam and abuse because...?


you posted some woman's opinion. it's not really a rebuttle to my facts/opinion post. can you reply to it line by line? i'd like to see you denying any of it :)


Of course a 71 year old Arab woman who is an educator knows far far less about the status of Arab women than you do.:rolleyes:

More rantings from deluded Arab women:
http://www.wworld.org/crisis/crisis.asp?ID=358


Arab women are generally portrayed as victimized, subservient. They sit next to silent, wide-eyed children in Iraqi hospitals, they stumble among the ruins of their homes in Jenin. Many in the west seem to think they need to be dragged out from under their veils and scolded into standing up for themselves. But as we all try to block, to temper, to survive the coming horror, it is crucial for sympathizers in the west to understand the truth. The women's movement started in Egypt, Palestine and Syria in the 1880s. By the 1960s women in many Arab countries had the vote, equal pay for equal work and maternity and childcare legislation that is still a dream in the west. Massive women's organizations worked to improve women's education and health care. Women (and men) campaigned for reforms in the personal laws and notched up several successes. But now all this is on hold.

I'm asked what Arab women are doing in these critical times. They are doing what they have to do: toughing it out, spreading themselves thin, doing their work, making ends meet, trying to protect their children and support their men, turning to their friends, their sisters and their mothers for solidarity and laughs. There was a quieter, more equable time when women's political action was born of choice, of a desire to change the world. Now, simply trying to hold on to our world is a political action.

F is an Egyptian architect. She has always been active in women's organizations. She did voluntary literacy work with poor urban women and her book on mothers and children was published by the UNDP. Her husband is one of the 14 anti-war activists detained recently in Cairo. When she took her two daughters, both engineering students, to visit him in Tora jail, they were astounded at the hundreds of women and children waiting to visit political detainees. Children were waiting to visit grandfathers in their 70s. F's husband (now released) is from the left but most long-term detainees are Islamists. The majority are unofficially detained. They have never been to court and there is no document that gives them prisoner status. They are not allowed to give power of attorney to anyone. Without documents, wives cannot draw their husbands' salaries, cannot travel, cannot marry off a daughter or even bury a child. Because of the conditions in the jail, the detainees' families have to provide them with food, clothes, books, cigarettes. The distance from the center of Cairo to Tora jail is 20 miles. Because the detainees have no official status there is no agreed system for visits. The women show up and hope that they and their provisions will be allowed in. If they are not they have to come back next day. F and her colleagues now find themselves campaigning at least for the proper application of the hated emergency laws under which Egyptians have labored since 1981.

The emergency laws proscribe demonstrations or unauthorized public gatherings. Six of the marches that have taken place in Cairo over the last two weeks have been women's marches called by women's NGOs. Unlike marches involving men they managed to reach both the American and Israeli embassies. Men who demonstrate get shot before they come anywhere near these, but the authorities are still wary of brutalizing women in public. It seems, though, that their patience may be wearing thin; a recent demo saw 150 women cornered by some 2,000 riot police. Last Saturday's demonstration in front of the Arab League headquarters linked Iraq and Palestine, for while the world's attention is on Iraq, Ariel Sharon's army shoots at ambulances and bulldozes houses down on top of pregnant women. Since November 2000, 51 Palestinian women have had to give birth at check points; 29 of their 51 babies died.

And yet Palestinian women continue to have babies. Is that a political choice? At the center of most women's lives are the children. Soha, a nursing student, breaks down and cries in her home in Aida Camp when a rocket whizzes through her kitchen window at supper-time and out through the facing wall into the mercifully empty bedroom. Her mother tells her to buck up and not scare the children. It is sobering to note that the first Palestinian woman to make the political decision to become a human bomb was a nurse, caring daily for children injured or maimed by Israeli bullets. In between these two extremes, the giving and the giving up of life, hundreds of thousands of women go about their business as best they can.

Karma Abu Sharif, though 60 years younger than our Baghdadi friend, does not walk the streets of Ramallah. She sits at home and compiles the Hearpalestine newsletter and website, recording what she can of the daily demolitions, expropriations, arrests and killings. Keeping the children alive. Keeping culture alive. Preserving history and telling the story - these seem to be at the heart of our women's concerns right now.

The UN's Peter Hansen, writing in this paper last week of the terrible hunger in Gaza, says that "the Palestinian extended family and community network have saved the territories from ... absolute collapse". Women are the backbone of these families and networks and they are performing the same function in Iraq. Families who have, share with those who have not, through the agency of the churches and the mosques.

Last night IK told me that her mother, in Baghdad, has sold the Virgin's gold. An icon of the Virgin that has been in the family for more than 300 years. A neighbor in trouble - Christian, Jew or Muslim - would come and whisper a prayer, perhaps make a pledge. When the afflicted was healed, the traveller berthed, the child conceived, the neighbor would fulfil the pledge. Over the decades the Virgin was adorned with the most delicate filaments of gold. To her children's appalled protests that the gold was not hers to sell, their mother replied that the Virgin had no need of gold when there were people in the city who were starving. But what comes next? Where do you go after you've sold the Virgin's gold?

Bells, how do you feel about beauty pageants?
I personally find them boring and stupid. Why do you ask?


you have yet to show that this awful behaviour is part of western culture (i.e. that it's accepted by all) and law (that husbands that kick their wife for insulting them do not go to jail if charges are brought forward)
So its prevalence around the world and even in the West does not give you an indication that it is ingrained somehow? Why?

Did you even know, that until the last few years, some states in the US did not consider it illegal for men to rape their wives? It was only after they bowed to public and international pressure that they changed their laws, but even then, made sure to make a distinction between what was marital rape and stranger rape. You don't think that rape laws for example and several states in the US having such a distinction between marital rape and stranger rape shows how ingrained domestic violence is in the US?

As to the law.. It fails to protect women in domestic violent situations on many occasions. The offender is not always jailed and charges are not always brought against them for a variety of reasons.


A New York commission on domestic violence found that 57 percent of investigated homicides could have been avoided if police had provided greater protection to the victims. (New York State Commission on Domestic Violence Fatalities, October 1997)
Link (http://proutworld.org/features/wifab.htm)


And leaving will not always provide protection.


Another tragic statistic is that separated or divorced women (perhaps thinking they had escaped their tormenter) are 14 times more likely than married women to be a victim of ex-spousal violence. Although they constitute ten percent of all women, they report 75 percent of spousal abuse. It is further disturbing to note that in a large study conducted in Chicago, New South Wales, Australia and Canada, more wives were slain by their husbands when separated than when living together. Wives are at the highest risk in the first two months after leaving their husbands. The Australia data showed that 47 percent of wives who left were killed in the first two months and 91 percent within a year of leaving their husbands. These figures speak louder than any smooth-sounding words what is the real status of women today in America.
Link (http://proutworld.org/features/wifab.htm)

As you said yourself, "if charges are brought forward", and on many occasions they are not. And even when they do, the guy can walk or face a pathetically short sentence. Men who rape their wives in some states in the US get a lesser sentence then if a woman was raped by a stranger. And in some States in the US alone, reporting requirement are so strict and sometimes shorter for spousal rape (for example) than it is for stranger rape. Here are some distinctions that exist that are quite disgusting if you really think about it.



in West Virginia, spousal sexual assault is defined as unconsented sexual penetration or sexual intrusion of the perpetrator's spouse. In addition, the perpetrator must use forcible compulsion or a deadly weapon or inflict serious bodily injury upon anyone. (5) This offense is a felony, punishable by imprisonment for two to ten years. The same acts against a person who is not married to the perpetrator result in a sentence of ten to thirty-five years.

An example of a similar statute comes from California. (6) The offenses of rape and spousal rape mostly parallel each other, but with some differences (7). For instance, a person who commits non-spousal rape by means of force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate and unlawful bodily injury may not be sentenced to probation or suspended sentence. (8) However, this prohibition does not apply to those who use the same means to commit spousal rape.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

While all states recognize spousal rape as a crime, still, there are ways in which spousal rape is treated differently than non-spousal rape. One difference in some states is a reporting period which is shorter for spousal rape than for other crimes. In Illinois, "prosecution of a spouse of a victim under this subsection ...is barred unless the victim reported such offense to a law enforcement agency or the State's Attorney's office within 30 days after the offense was committed, except when the court finds good cause for the delay."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Another way that some states treat rape of a spouse is treated differently than non-spousal rape is the requirement that force or threat of force must be used by the spouse. For instance, in Tennessee, a person only commits rape or sexual battery of a spouse when the person is armed with a weapon or credible decoy, causes serious bodily injury to the victim, or when the spouses live separate apart and one of them has filed for a divorce or separation. (12) Similarly, in Nevada, marriage is a defense to sexual assault of a spouse except where "the assault was committed by force or by the threat of force." (13) In contrast, many non-spousal sexual assault laws refer to lack of consent, rather than the use of force.
Link (http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32701)

Yes. I can understand why you'd think it was so hard to believe.


Domestic violence is ingrained in all societies. It was permitted in the past and now while we have laws against it, socially and in the minds of many people, it is still seen as not being something that bad. I have met many many women who were abused by their intimate partner and I have seen with my own eyes how some of them would be pressured by their own families to simply put up and shut up.


i find this one extremely hard to believe. this means that if you pick ANY apartment building in America, and in full half of the apartments there, the guy hit his wife at least once in the past year.

furthermore, assuming that these stats are correct, how much worse do you think it is in these tribal areas?
The stats are correct sadly. Domestic violence is that common. And I understand why you'd think it was so unbelievable, but the more you look into it, the worse it gets. Even the Government admits that the figures they have are only taken from those reported. I'd hate to imagine what the true figure actually is because of the number of women who never report it or seek help.

As to what it's like in tribal areas. It's worse.


what is your point anyway? to say "we are bad too"? ok. i agree. there are women who have it pretty bad. but however bad they have it, it's not 1/10th as bad as it is in the Muslim world.
There was a reason why I said earlier in this thread that we in the West also live in a glass house and should not throw stones. Both sides of the equation (Muslim and Western if that's how you are going to break it down) have a bad record of domestic violence. You cannot absolve or excuse Western society by merely saying 'well they're worse than we are so that's still ok'.

This Link (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGACT770362004) gives you a breakdown of violence against women in all sorts of situations in various countries and areas around the world. Yes some have it worse, but figures in Western countries is not something we should not be embarrassed about. If we are going to start claiming we are somehow better then them (eg Muslims), we need to clean up our own act first, otherwise we come off looking like moronic fools.

On many occasions we in the West have had our own records of human rights abuses and domestic violence abuses thrown back in our faces when we've attempted to draw a distinction of our moral superiority against Islamic countries. We are in no position to be drawing any moral lines or distinctions because it is still so prevalent in our own society.

False

Women can divorce husbands who are abusive. Divorce is very easy in Muslims, all a woman has to do is call a qadi and inform him.



False, they do it all the time. I did too.



False, he will have to look after the children, his wifes mother/family or his mother/family will visit on a regular basis. Plus Arab women are usually strong willed and tend to rule the roost at home.



No it does not. But women talk. A lot.


All hypothetical ranting, with no substance.

to refute facts you tell fairytales and anecdotes. if anything i said is false it is only because the Mutaween did not do their job properly (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm)

an Iranian friend told me how she used to leave her house without the hijab too... but she did not dare to go far from her house, because if she was caught by the cops she'd have to be lashed for "violating Islamic law"

to refute facts you tell fairytales and anecdotes. if anything i said is false it is only because the Mutaween did not do their job properly (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm)

an Iranian friend told me how she used to leave her house without the hijab too... but she did not dare to go far from her house, because if she was caught by the cops she'd have to be lashed for "violating Islamic law"

Of course the mutawa are a problem. But they are not present to the same extent everywhere and not all mutawas are the same. My mudir in Taif was a mutawa and he never objected to me having my face uncovered. As for your Iranian friend, I have Iranian friends too and yes there are places where people are backward, but does that represent life in Iran in general?[/QUOTE]

http://www.irantravelingcenter.com/irantravelingcenter/iran_girl.jpg
http://www.lastkick.com/wp-content/P_Women_Football_Iran_Germany.jpg

I don't think so

More "suppressed women" from Iran

http://www.iran-e-azad.org/english/nla/images/womenNLA.jpg


http://images.scotsman.com/2006/06/11/1irab.jpg

http://www.iranchamber.com/podium/society/images/041115_women_cadets_police_iran.jpg

Of course the mutawa are a problem. But they are not present to the same extent everywhere and not all mutawas are the same. My mudir in Taif was a mutawa and he never objected to me having my face uncovered. As for your Iranian friend, I have Iranian friends too and yes there are places where people are backward, but does that represent life in Iran in general?

http://www.lastkick.com/wp-content/P_Women_Football_Iran_Germany.jpg


How the fuck can you play football wearing a headscarf and that outfit? You'd overheat in a hurry. If they had a choice, they'd rip them off.

http://www.lastkick.com/wp-content/P_Women_Football_Iran_Germany.jpg


How the fuck can you play football wearing a headscarf and that outfit? You'd overheat in a hurry. If they had a choice, they'd rip them off.
That's hilarious

http://web.indstate.edu/top/news/photodatabase/Events/homecoming_football_2001/images/football.jpg

That's hilarious

http://web.indstate.edu/top/news/photodatabase/Events/homecoming_football_2001/images/football.jpg

Those uniforms are a problem.

http://vam.anest.ufl.edu/coolpads/presentation-to-nfl.swf

the fact that women in Iran are allowed to march in the army, or to play soccer (but only if fully covered) doesn't change the fact that if they step out of line like completely take off the hijab, they'll face corporal punishment from government. or capital punishment in other Muslim countries.

one thing does not contradict the other, does it, Sam?

the fact that women in Iran are allowed to march in the army, or to play soccer (but only if fully covered) doesn't change the fact that if they step out of line like completely take off the hijab, they'll face corporal punishment from government. or capital punishment in other Muslim countries.

one thing does not contradict the other, does it, Sam?

So women are allowed to have an education, allowed to work, allowed to follow male-dominated career choices and forced to wear hijab?

Amazing dichotomy in thinking there. Do you really know any Iranian women?:rolleyes:

Would you say women are forced to wear clothing in Western countries when they are allowed to work? I mean, a woman can leave her shirt at home one day, since its a free country, right?

there you go ducking my argument again :)
are you diverting the debate on purpose?

does "women in Iran can play soccer" disprove that "women in Iran will get lashed if they are caught without a hijab by a cop"?

Ah yes, Iran, the place where all the ladies want to live.

there you go ducking my argument again :)
are you diverting the debate on purpose?

does "women in Iran can play soccer" disprove that "women in Iran will get lashed if they are caught without a hijab by a cop"?

You do realise that for an Iranian women who wears a hijab, telling her to take it off is equivalent to telling a Western woman to take off her shirt?
That a Western woman who takes off her shirt in public will also be arrested by a cop? That if she resists she will be tasered?

Can you understand this concept?

Are the lady's parents allowed to see the lady's face, how 'bout uncles, aunts, grandparents, cousins, etc., where do they draw the line?

and another thing:


Of course the mutawa are a problem. But they are not present to the same extent everywhere and not all mutawas are the same. My mudir in Taif [if a "mudir" is your "guardian", i find the concept degrading. are you a fucking dog to be walked???] was a mutawa and he never objected to me having my face uncovered. [how kind of him to [I]allow you to show your face] As for your Iranian friend, I have Iranian friends too and yes there are places where people are backward [all TV programming, and all public centers and big cities is not what i call "some places". i dare you to walk anywhere on a main street in Teheran or Jeddah without a hijab! just see what happens], but does that represent life in Iran in general? [fuck yes]

this dishonesty is really pissing me off.
if you can't even admit that women are treated worse in Islamic countries than in the west then there's nothing for me to talk to you about.

Are the lady's parents allowed to see the lady's face, how 'bout uncles, aunts, grandparents, cousins, etc., where do they draw the line?

Depends on the social expectations.

and another thing:



this dishonesty is really pissing me off.
if you can't even admit that women are treated worse in Islamic countries than in the west then there's nothing for me to talk to you about.

So my practical experience is dishonesty and your hypothetical BS is reality?

Thanks for the clarification.:rolleyes:

PS I did used to walk in Jeddah without hijab.

How 'bout that the "social expectation" is to not have your faced covered in public places (unless you're wearing bandages or it's real cold)?

You do realise that for an Iranian women who wears a hijab, telling her to take it off is equivalent to telling a Western woman to take off her shirt?
That a Western woman who takes off her shirt in public will also be arrested by a cop? That if she resists she will be tasered?

Can you understand this concept?

who cares about this supersitious bullshit? if she wants to wear it, good for her

and as far as western women taking their shirts in public, it's competely legal in Canada, and i think in the US too (although laws may vary in different states) - but it isn't even the point

the argument is about what a bearded goat-fucking mullah or husband or brother decides what a woman should do against a woman's will.

what about my Iranian friend who doesn't want to wear a hijab?
what about an Afghani woman whose husband / brother still lives in the 7th century and will KILL her if she goes to school?

Sam, stop being dishonest and talk about real issues instead of building strawmen and "debunking" them

So my practical experience is dishonesty and your hypothetical BS is reality?
you're ignoring the things i said, again
man you are such a dishonest debater


PS I did used to walk in Jeddah without hijab.
where? that's the whole point!
stop this dishonesty Sam! if you were taking a shit in your own appartment without a hijab it doesn't mean you can go to the city center and do it!

I gotta admit that when I seen a Muslim woman out in public with her face all covered up, I see it as the ultimate in women-demeaning tradition, "cover your face," wow.

who cares about this supersitious bullshit? if she wants to wear it, good for her

and as far as western women taking their shirts in public, it's competely legal in Canada, and i think in the US too (although laws may vary in different states) - but it isn't even the point

the argument is about what a bearded goat-fucking mullah or husband or brother decides what a woman should do against a woman's will.

what about my Iranian friend who doesn't want to wear a hijab?
what about an Afghani woman whose husband / brother still lives in the 7th century and will KILL her if she goes to school?

Sam, stop being dishonest.

Its not dishonesty, its whats considered acceptable.

e.g. if a Holocaust revisionist wants to talk about the Holocaust in India, he has the freedom of expression to do so.

He cannot do so in the US. So what does that say about the two societies?

That they have different ideas of what is considered socially acceptable.

Believe me I was as surprised as you would be when I went to Saudi Arabia and found out that all the "suppressed women" are not as suppressed as the Western media makes them out to be, that for them the hijab is an aspect of their cultural and religious identity and that they resent the notion that other people should tell them what they should think and feel.

About the veil:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/31/AR2006053101994.html
As for those who do not want to conform to the social expectations of a community. Well they can move!

PS I'm all for social change but values cannot be imposed, the change must come from within.

if a woman wants to do it it's fine. but the question is, why does she want to do it? more often than not, the reason is that she'll be punished for taking it off.

As for those who do not want to conform to the social expectations of a community. Well they can move!
thanks for conceding that the "social expectations of a community" in Saud and Iran are fucked. (i'm paraphrasing, of course :))

but theres one problem: they can't move! probably because they need their hubby's permission

if a woman wants to do it it's fine. but the question is, why does she want to do it? more often than not, the reason is that she'll be punished for taking it off.

But the women themselves support this.

From the previous link:


Many Salafi women here, who follow the school of thought that calls for a return to Islam as practiced by the prophet Muhammad and the following two generations, shatter the stereotype of women in black niqab as meek and submissive. Often well educated, articulate and sometimes downright aggressive, they include award-winning scientists, writers and college professors.

Khadija Badahdah, a university administrator who holds a doctorate in chemistry from the University of London and wears a veil, said she recently started to grant television interviews because women calling for change were dominating coverage on the airwaves and in newspapers and giving the wrong impression of Saudi women. "They are a minority but they appear to speak for all of us," she said, sitting in her comfortable home in Jiddah on a recent weekend. "This is the beginning of a cultural erosion, and if we don't fight it now, it will continue."





At Jiddah's King Fahd Medical Research Center, a small Casio recorder played Koranic verses in the background as Faten Khorshid peered through a microscope, her niqab falling past her shoulders over her long white lab coat. Khorshid, who received a government grant for cancer research, says that her conservative views have not held her back and that the niqab makes it easier for doctors to concentrate on work instead of one another. "I don't want to be the equal of a man," she added. "In many ways, I am better than him."

nice source, Sam.

let's start with "many Salafi women".
first of all, Salafism is the most extreme sect of Sunni Islam. so any women who are part of this relatively small sect are likely to actually want to be subject to all the strict Islamic (or should I say, government sanctioned) restrictions.

second of all, the writer herself says "many Salafi women", admitting that even among this minority of ultra-conservative women some don't like these restrictions.
how much is "many" and how much is "some" is open for interpretation.

additionally, this is a PR piece to Western ears coming out of the Saudi establishment. what else do you think they'll say?

re: the 500 women who came to demonstrate how much they love the veil, it's just a small interest group. i can give you a few links telling about Saudi women who would rather kiss a Jew than wear the veil. but this won't "prove" my arguments, as you're trying to prove your argument by linking to this puff piece.

we're talking about the principle, not about what "some people say"

"In many way, I am better than him," really?

How can it be an advantage for her when she can't be readily picked out of a crowd for commendation?

"In many way, I am better than him," really?

it's not who's better or worse. it's about who is allowed to drive a car and who is allowed to go to the hospital without somebody walking you like a dog

nice source, Sam.

let's start with "many Salafi women".
first of all, Salafism is the most extreme sect of Sunni Islam. so any women who are part of this relatively small sect are likely to actually want to be subject to all the strict Islamic (or should I say, government sanctioned) restrictions.

second of all, the writer herself says "many Salafi women", admitting that even among this minority of ultra-conservative women some don't like these restrictions.
how much is "many" and how much is "some" is open for interpretation.

additionally, this is a PR piece to Western ears coming out of the Saudi establishment. what else do you think they'll say?

re: the 500 women who came to demonstrate how much they love the veil, it's just a small interest group. i can give you a few links telling about Saudi women who would rather kiss a Jew than wear the veil. but this won't "prove" my arguments, as you're trying to prove your argument by linking to this puff piece.

we're talking about the principle, not about what "some people say"

No we are talking about the right of people to live in their own country as they please not as someone who lives in a different place and culture thinks they should.

I have lived in Saudi Arabia for five years and I never met a woman who was unhappy with her situation -and I travelled a lot, to visit Mecca, Jiddah, Riyadh. I went on vaccination drives, went for religious meetings, hospital related work in many places in Taif. I visited Saudi women at home, in the hospital when groups would come together to chat. I had a Saudi khadema who cooked and ate with me. I spent many days performing umrah during Ramadan and Hajj and spent time overnight at the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca, chatting with local people.

I believe I know what I am talking about. Do you?

it's not who's better or worse. it's about who is allowed to drive a car and who is allowed to go to the hospital without somebody walking you like a dog

You mean calling up a man and telling him to be ready at the door with a car, having him always available to drive you around wherever and whenever you please, having him trail behind you holding your packages and paying all the bills, receive you when you travel abroad, giving him all the responsibility and hassle of making arrangements for every small detail of work outside the house, holding him responsible for the finances and management of your house, yourself and your children, with the luxury of knowing that he has no right to a single penny you own?

Yeah its a dog's life, it is.

Tons of oil money does salve over the wounds, I'm sure.

Tons of oil money does salve over the wounds, I'm sure.

Not all women in Saudi Arabia are rich.:p

I'm sure not all of them are happy with their situation either. I just never met any of them.

People get used to the craziest things.

No we are talking about the right of people to live in their own country as they please not as someone who lives in a different place and culture thinks they should.

I have lived in Saudi Arabia for five years and I never met a woman who was unhappy with her situation -and I travelled a lot, to visit Mecca, Jiddah, Riyadh. I went on vaccination drives, went for religious meetings, hospital related work in many places in Taif. I visited Saudi women at home, in the hospital when groups would come together to chat. I had a Saudi khadema who cooked and ate with me. I spent many days performing umrah during Ramadan and Hajj and spent time overnight at the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca, chatting with local people.

I believe I know what I am talking about. Do you?

i think that your pleasant personal experiences do not disprove anything i've said in previous posts

i also think that you, visibly a foreigner (and even if you weren't), would not be told a family's personal troubles. family honour is very important in Saud, as i'm sure you know. who would shame their family by telling a stranger, who also happens to be a foreigner, how her husband is mistreating her?


You mean calling up a man and telling him to be ready at the door with a car, having him always available to drive you around wherever and whenever you please, having him trail behind you holding your packages and paying all the bills, receive you when you travel abroad, giving him all the responsibility and hassle of making arrangements for every small detail of work outside the house, holding him responsible for the finances and management of your house, yourself and your children, with the luxury of knowing that he has no right to a single penny you own?

Yeah its a dog's life, it is.
sounds very romantic. almost as if the husband is the slave :)
i must admit that it sounds pretty good.
but anything has a positive side. for example, banning car travel altogether (a ridiculous and draconian move) will prevent car accidents and deaths (a good result).

but you know fullwell that a man being his wife's bitch is not the problem. it's not even a problem.

this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm) is the problem.

here's an alternative perspective on your pink view of Ryadh:
http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=241


“Obtaining divorce (for a woman) is sadly very difficult,” agreed Najwa Faraj, a social worker in a Riyadh hospital, who says courts order women to return to their husbands “in order to avoid divorce”.

...

“We are powerless. What are our rights? The man is always right,” she added bitterly — anonymity her cloak of protection against the perceived shame to herself, her children and her extended family.

“Every time I was admitted to hospital, I refused to mention that I was beaten, because I do not want the police to know,” not trusting them to keep her ordeal a secret.

...

“When a woman is beaten, she does not speak out because that brings shame to her family” even when she is admitted to hospital,” the AFP news agency quoted psychiatrist Madeha Al-Ajroush as saying.

“The boys will grow up to be abusive and the girls will either be submissive and weak he who is my slave"] or rebellious and aggressive."


i understand that this is just a view, and that not all Arab husbands are abusive... just like not all slave owners were mean to their slaves.

it's the system that is fucked, not the individual people within the system.

EDIT:

note that the article in the link above was taken from Arab News (www.arabnews.com), and not some op-ed written by a dissident group.

I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that forcing people to accept values foreign to their culture only makes them defiant and less flexible, not more open.

e.g. A survey of women in Saudi and UAE women:


The survey drew up five categories of types of women from these two countries. Of the five types of women, only one type sees herself as equal to a man. Three of the types are happily subservient and feel – either out of love or duty – that their only role in life is to keep the family happy. It was the last type that struck me as the saddest, however.

This type suffers from extreme internal conflict. She sees the independence and freedom that expat Western women enjoy – and it makes her jealous, insecure, and spiteful even. In her frustration she wants to feel that her life is superior to those women, so she spends lavishly and shows off mightily. She drives a Mercedes (in the UAE at least where women are allowed to drive), puts diamonds on her fingers, her purse and even her cell phone. She brags openly about her riches. At home, her frustration and inability to stand up to her husband manifests into masterful manipulation. In lieu of being equal in her husband’s eyes, she “beats” him by conning him into spending more money on her. Thus, she feels some modicum of power and control. Her biggest fear in life is feeling invisible.

In other words, until the women themselves drive change it will not happen. ANy attempts to do so by force or ridicule will have the opposite effect.

But education and exposure to different cultures will lead to change, but it must be at a pace acceptable to the local culture.

But its not impossible:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4719639.stm

PS. except for the house and children, it is pretty much like that for women. I had a driver at my beck and call, transport at any time of day and night to whichever city I wanted, all arrangements made for my travel and stay. All I had to do was be there. I spent my own money, of course.

Several Filipino nurses convert to Islam and marry Saudis, they get so attracted to the life. I met many of them and they were perfectly content. And Saudi women are not like Western women. They tell you everything, from their home lives, family lives, to their husbands sexual (non)performances. After all I am an inferior Muslim woman who actually works for a living, while they have their men doing the dirty for them. :p

And yes, the mutawa are extreme. But eliminating them won't reverse the culture in Saudi Arabia. Just like removing Saddam will not bring democracy.

edit: And you're right. Like I said earlier, not everyone is the same. But to assume that everyone has Western values and priorities is also foolish.

i never said i want to come in and impose liberalism on these (in my and many others' view) backwards cultures by force. i merely said that in the west, despite obvious exceptions, women have it far better.

i never said i want to come in and impose liberalism on these (in my and many others' view) backwards cultures by force. i merely said that in the west, despite obvious exceptions, women have it far better.

Do they? Only if you presume you know what women want.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4333501.stm


When it came to home life, most of the women, with an average age of 29, wanted a traditional domestic set-up.

Only 11% said they would put their child into nursery care while they went off to work full-time.

Almost a quarter planned to be a full-time mother.

Only 1% of those questioned said their career would be their top priority once they had children.

Seven out of 10 of the women said they did not want to work as hard as their mother's generation, while six out of 10 said female "do-it-all role models" were unhelpful and irritating.

Many also believed a man should be the main provider for his family if possible.

western social issues are no match for being forced to burn alive by government agents for not covering your head :rolleyes:

Does anyone know what's the percentage of women, American women, who compose the new American converts to Islam?

western social issues are no match for being forced to burn alive by government agents for not covering your head :rolleyes:

Unless you yourself believe that women who do not cover their head are not worthy of respect or consideration.:)

Huh?

Huh?

i.e. the women of Saudi Arabia themselves believe that a woman who will not wear hijab where it is mandatory are "breaking the rules" and "deserve punishment". They consider Western women devoid of self respect.

About conversion, no statistics are available, though there are some studies:

http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Muslim-Western-Conversions-Culture/dp/1403976112

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/international-politics/49490-western-women-1-converts-islam.html

http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/books/vanwom.html

are you implying that Saudi society in general, and most Saudi women in particular, will endorse this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm)?!?

in that case drop the fucking nuke on them!

are you implying that Saudi society in general, and most Saudi women in particular, will endorse this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm)?!?

in that case drop the fucking nuke on them!

Do you understand the difference between breaking a rule deliberately versus getting into a tragic situation?

You are indulging in sensationalism.

Do YOU endorse this (http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm)? Or this (http://www.salon.com/news/abu_ghraib/2006/03/14/introduction/)?
Or this (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1002-01.htm)?

you're being dishonest again, Sam.

my example was showing a Saudi government police officers enforcing Saudi law (and culture) as they understood it

in your example, if it's even real, you're showing criminals who will go to jail for a very long time (bc its against the law), and will lose the respect of their peers (bc its against their culture)

you're being dishonest again, Sam.

my example was showing a Saudi government police officers enforcing Saudi law (and culture) as they understood it

in your example, if it's even real, you're showing criminals

What criminals? How do you know they are criminals? What evidence is there against them?

YOU are being dishonest here. Both are instances of abuse of power by people in government.

edit: Have these men gone to prison, btw?

I think we've already established the "culture" in the West especially towards women.

1) i doubt your source is authentic. it looks like a common porno you can find on the internet

2) i have heard of some Marines going to prison for the rape & murder of some Iraqi girl and her family
EDIT:
here's the link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13780108/)

3)
What criminals? How do you know they are criminals? What evidence is there against them?
are you being retarded on purpose?

4)
I think we've already established the "culture" in the West especially towards women
western social issues are no match to being forced to burn alive by government agents for not covering your head

1) i doubt your source is authentic. it looks like a common porno you can find on the internet

2) i have heard of some Marines going to prison for the rape & murder of some Iraqi girl and her family
EDIT:
here's the link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13780108/)

3)
are you being retarded on purpose?

4)
western social issues are no match for being forced to burn alive by government agents for not covering your head
A link for the "porno"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,3604,1220673,00.html


Of course all sources which show US soldiers committing atrocities MUST be false. The reverse MUST be true for any Muslim related media.

And no I'm not being retarded. I'd like to know what sentence is imposed on soldiers who rape, torture and murder people with the consent of their superiors.

I know about the Iraqi girl.

I'm talking about torture with the consent of superiors.


The International Committee of the Red Cross, whose devastating report on human rights abuses of Iraqi prisoners was delivered to the government in February but failed to ring alarm bells, says the problem lies with the system. "It is an absence of judicial guarantees," says Nada Doumani, spokesperson for the ICRC. "The system is not fair, precise or properly defined."



More Western "culture":
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/013006J.shtml

I'm talking about torture with the consent of superiors.

* against western culture: because these revalations, if true, are "shocking". if you're currently in the US, go outside, stop the first person on the street, and ask if they approve of this. guess what their response will be.

* against the law: if this is found true, and is not just some sensational propaganda by a "social progressive independent group", then these superiors will be going to jail, and you know it.

* against western culture: because these revalations, if true, are "shocking". if you're currently in the US, go outside, stop the first person on the street, and ask if they approve of this. guess what their response will be.

* against the law: if this is found true, and is not just some sensational propaganda by a "social progressive independent group", then these superiors will be going to jail, and you know it.

Yes, hypocrisy is such a salve.:rolleyes:

Wonder where all the people committing the crimes come from? Sort of tend to lose sight of the "respect" they have for women so very often, don't they?

i don't know what you mean by that.
i think i exposed your dishonesty / hypocricy... how am i a hypocrite? i've demonstrated post after post how these barbarious acts (which you conceded are part of Arab culture and law) are not part of western culture and law.

i don't know what you mean by that.
i think i exposed your dishonesty / hypocricy... how am i a hypocrite? i've demonstrated post after post how these barbarious acts (which you conceded are part of Arab culture and law) are not part of western culture and law.

No they just happen to occur in the West with greater frequency (statistically speaking).

No they just happen to occur in the West with greater frequency (statistically speaking).

Ahh, yes, Sam, ....but that's because we, in the west, have a great range of freedom to do all those criminal things! No one is a criminal until AFTER the crime is committed ....not before, Sam. In many other nations of the world, the people are kept under more scrutiny and have less freedoms ...crimes are more difficult to commit unnder those constraints.

There was virtually no hypocrisy in what he said. Read it again more carefully.

Baron Max

Ahh, yes, Sam, ....but that's because we, in the west, have a great range of freedom to do all those criminal things! No one is a criminal until AFTER the crime is committed ....not before, Sam. In many other nations of the world, the people are kept under more scrutiny and have less freedoms ...crimes are more difficult to commit unnder those constraints.

There was virtually no hypocrisy in what he said. Read it again more carefully.

Baron Max

And what does this have to do with the topic?

Ahh, yes, Sam, ....but that's because we, in the west, have a great range of freedom to do all those criminal things! No one is a criminal until AFTER the crime is committed ....not before, Sam. In many other nations of the world, the people are kept under more scrutiny and have less freedoms ...crimes are more difficult to commit unnder those constraints.

There was virtually no hypocrisy in what he said. Read it again more carefully.

Baron Max

you're assuming here that abuse against women indeed happens more often in the west.
i don't think you can know for certain. there are no stats about domestic abuse in the Islamic world, or in Saudi Arabia in particular.

EDIT:
what we do know about Saudi Arabia (for example) is that women grossly underreport it to the authorities (just as in any country i suppose, but i think more so in the Arab world because of "honour issues")... and even when they do it's not being added to an "abuse database" for stats purposes.

you're assuming here that abuse against women indeed happens more often in the west.

No, I was actually giving Sam a possible "reason" for what she said/implied in her post ...which I copied so others could see to what I was referring. But I see many didn't read her copied post, thus found my own post somewhat confusing and misinterpreted it. If you go back and read the two together, you'll see exactly what I meant by my post.

Baron Max

Christian Fundametalist cult abuse of women "marrying" raping little girls


NPR : Warren Jeffs 49-year-old Warren Jeffs took over as prophet of the FLDS, or Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of latterday saint

Warren Jeffs and the FLDS
by Wade Goodwyn, Howard Berkes and Amy Walters



Current FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs.




Warren Jeffs' Teachings
Warren Jeffs is the prophet of the FLDS. Hear excerpts of Jeffs preaching:


Hear Jeffs on the proper role of wives, whom he says should build up their husbands by being submissive.
Hear Jeffs speak about dark skin. His teachings prompted the Southern Poverty Law Center to declare the FLDS faith a hate group.




Rulon Jeffs, pictured here with two young women who were reported to be among his dozens of wives, was the prophet of the FLDS from 1986 until his death in 2002. He was succeeded as prophet by his son, Warren Jeffs. Photo courtesy Jay Bezwick




Return to Related NPR Stories
May 3, 2005
Polygamists on Utah-Arizona Border Under Scrutiny
May 4, 2005
Texas Town Wary of Polygamist Sect's Arrival

NPR.org, May 3, 2005 · Upon the death of his father, 49-year-old Warren Jeffs took over as prophet of the FLDS, or Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in September of 2002. Jeff's father, Rulon T. Jeffs, had been the group's prophet for the previous 15 years. He died at the age of 92, leaving an estimated 75 widows and 65 children to mourn him.

The nearly two-decade tenure of father and son has split the polygamist community on the Utah-Arizona border. After taking power in 1986, Rulon Jeffs slowly abolished the seven-member Priesthood Council that had previously governed the sect. Rulon Jeffs eventually claimed a "One Man Rule" and as a result, part of the group split away and founded their own polygamist settlement nearby.

According to former followers, the prophet is considered to be God's mouthpiece on earth. It is believed that God speaks directly to Warren Jeffs to reveal His will. And through the prophet, God directs which male members are worthy of entry into heaven (females are invited into heaven by satisfied husbands). Jeffs is also the only person who can perform marriages, and it is through him that wives are assigned to their husbands. Pleasing the prophet can result in loyal members being rewarded with one or more wives. Wives are considered to "belong" to their husbands for eternity.

In order to reach the highest degree of glory in heaven, members of the FLDS believe that each man must have at least three wives. A significant means of prophet power is derived from his ability to punish followers by reassigning their wives, children and homes to another man. Obedience is highly valued, and it is rare for wives to resist reassignment.

The group takes its theology regarding "plural marriages" from the teachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and the early Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, better known as the Mormon Church. But under pressure from the U.S. government, church leaders abandoned polygamy in 1890 so that Utah could gain statehood. Polygamists believe that's when the Mormon Church strayed from the path of righteousness. Likewise, members of the FLDS are not welcome in Mormon congregations, and Mormons who are found practicing polygamy are excommunicated.

Nearly all property in Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah, including residential property, is owned by a church trust and controlled by Warren Jeffs. According to former vice-mayor and Colorado City Councilman Richard Holm, the trust is estimated to be worth in excess of $100 million. Holm also estimates that Warren Jeffs has more than 50 wives. But exactly how many wives, or where Jeffs is currently, nobody outside his inner circle seems to know.

There are widely varying estimates of how many people practice polygamy in North America -- 20,000 to 50,000 and more -- but the secrecy of such groups makes a definitive number elusive.




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silly guy, what is your point? Because Muslims behave so nice to their women?

Ad-hom?

Religious fundamentalists of any religion don't get much sympathy from me. I hope all such perpetrators are brought to justice.