I found this to be an interesting excerpt from Anti-Missionary@yahoo.com. It makes it very clear that Jesus could not possibly be God.

GOD IS NOT A MAN NOR A MORTAL

God is not a man that He should lie, nor a mortal that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)

GOD IS ALWAYS THE SAME

And also the Eternal One of Israel will not lie nor change His mind; for he is not a man, that He should change His mind. (I Samuel 15:29)

GOD IS ONE

Do not put your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation! (Psalm 146:3)

JESUS ADMITS HE'S NOT GOD

. . . because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

GOD MAKES IT CLEAR--DON'T FOLLOW JESUS

Deuteronomy 6:14

You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you!

GOD IS ONE--NOT THREE

Deuteronomy 32:39

See, now, that I, I am He -- and no god is with Me . . . .

JESUS IS NOT THE SAVIOR

Isaiah 43:10-11

“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”

JESUS IS NOT GOD

Isaiah 44:6-8

This is what the Lord says, Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty, “I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no God! Who then is like Me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare it and lay it out before Me . . . . Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

THERE IS NOT GOD BUT GOD--NOT JESUS

Isaiah 46:9

Remember the first things of old, that I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me.

JESUS IS NOT GOD

Hosea 13:4

I am the Lord your God, Who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but Me, no Savior except Me!

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD--GOD HIMSELF

Joel 2:27

You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and I am the Lord your God, there is no other; and My people shall never be ashamed.

ONLY ONE GOD

Malachi 2:10

Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why should we betray, each one his brother, to profane the covenant of our forefathers?

WORSHIP NO GOD, BUT THE ONE GOD

Psalm 81:8-9

Hear, O My people, and I will admonish you; O Israel, if you would listen to Me! Let there be no strange god among you; nor shall you worship any foreign god.

THE ONENESS OF GOD

I Chronicles 17:20

O Lord, there is none like You, neither is there any God beside You, according to all that we have heard with our ears!

(Taken from www.jdstone.org/truth/)

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
God is not a man that He should lie, nor a mortal that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)

And also the Eternal One of Israel will not lie nor change His mind; for he is not a man, that He should change His mind. (I Samuel 15:29)In which case, God is not God:

Gen.6:6
"And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

Ex.32:14
"And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

Dt.32:36
"For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants.

1 Sam.15:11
"It repenteth me [God] that I have set up Saul to be king."

'nuff said?

~Raithere

What bible or website are you using Raithere? Most of the verses translated in my bible show only God's regret not repentance. God doesn't change but men do. Some of the translations are outright different. For example, Deut. 32:36 "Surely, the LORD shall do justice for his people; on his servants he shall have pity. " Ex. 32:14 "So the LORD relented in the punishment he had threatened to inflict on his people."

Ah I see the SAB :mad:

well said Medicine.

How can Jesus be God when he himself prayed to God as the Bible informs us ???????????????

www.jesus-or-allah.com

Jesus is the manifestation of the One God-who-cannot-change's salvation on earth. The arm is not separate from the body, and it is lesser than the body in nature but equal to it in action and authority.

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
GOD IS NOT A MAN NOR A MORTAL

God is not a man that He should lie, nor a mortal that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)
When did Jesus ever change his mind about embodying the salvation of mankind? He could have esaped death on the cross but He didn't.
GOD IS ALWAYS THE SAME

And also the Eternal One of Israel will not lie nor change His mind; for he is not a man, that He should change His mind. (I Samuel 15:29)
God never lied or changed his mind. He could take different routes to the same end, because all options are available to Him, but that's not the same as changing his mind.

Raithere, you'll see in each of your quotes that whatever God thought about the situation, He did not change his mind in any of those cases. He still made Saul king, while He postponed punishment, He still judged his people, and He still made man on earth (twice you might say, with Adam and Noah.)
GOD IS ONE

Do not put your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation! (Psalm 146:3)
True. Put your trust in God and accept the method of His salvation when it comes from Him.
JESUS ADMITS HE'S NOT GOD

. . . because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)
Jesus admits He is not the Father.
GOD MAKES IT CLEAR--DON'T FOLLOW JESUS

Deuteronomy 6:14

You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you!
Follow the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus.

Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

GOD IS ONE--NOT THREE

Deuteronomy 32:39

See, now, that I, I am He -- and no god is with Me . . . .
Trinity doesn't mean three Gods. It describes the threefold nature of one God. The only separation between them is human, not divine.

JESUS IS NOT THE SAVIOR

Isaiah 43:10-11

“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Isaiah 49:6
he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

JESUS IS NOT GOD

Isaiah 44:6-8

This is what the Lord says, Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty, “I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no God! Who then is like Me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare it and lay it out before Me . . . . Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
Who is like God? Who proclaimed and declared it? God himself!

Revelation 1
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!


THERE IS NOT GOD BUT GOD--NOT JESUS

Isaiah 46:9

Remember the first things of old, that I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me.
But unless Jesus is really the Word of God, then all other gods are like him - promising salvation but never delivering!

JESUS IS NOT GOD

Hosea 13:4

I am the Lord your God, Who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but Me, no Savior except Me!
And we don't.

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD--GOD HIMSELF

Joel 2:27

You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and I am the Lord your God, there is no other; and My people shall never be ashamed.
And God spread his gospel from Israel to the gentiles, and I'm not ashamed to proclaim it.

ONLY ONE GOD

Malachi 2:10

Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why should we betray, each one his brother, to profane the covenant of our forefathers?[b/]
Hebrews 2:11
10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.

[b]WORSHIP NO GOD, BUT THE ONE GOD

Psalm 81:8-9

Hear, O My people, and I will admonish you; O Israel, if you would listen to Me! Let there be no strange god among you; nor shall you worship any foreign god.
1 Corinthians 8
4...We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

THE ONENESS OF GOD

I Chronicles 17:20

O Lord, there is none like You, neither is there any God beside You, according to all that we have heard with our ears!

(Taken from www.jdstone.org/truth/)
Amen.

Originally posted by Jenyar
Jesus is the manifestation of the One God-who-cannot-change's salvation on earth. The arm is not separate from the body, and it is lesser than the body in nature but equal to it in action and authority.
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M*W: We are ALL manifestations of the One Spirit of "God-who-cannot-change-salvation on earth." WE are not separate from God, and WE are not lesser than God, "but equal to it in action and authority." The pure positive energy that created us CANNOT judge us. WE were created with an operating consciousness. Only WE can judge.
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When did Jesus ever change his mind about embodying the salvation of mankind? He could have esaped death on the cross but He didn't.
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M*W: Because he was NOT God. And an omnipotent God would have NEVER created a human being to DIE for the whole human race. If God can judge, he would judge us individually, not through one human being.
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God never lied or changed his mind. He could take different routes to the same end, because all options are available to Him, but that's not the same as changing his mind.
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M*W: WE embody the MIND OF GOD. God does not have a mind, so he cannot change it.
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Raithere, you'll see in each of your quotes that whatever God thought about the situation, He did not change his mind in any of those cases. He still made Saul king, while He postponed punishment, He still judged his people, and He still made man on earth (twice you might say, with Adam and Noah.)
----------
Jesus admits He is not the Father.
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M*W: Jesus admits he is not God.
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Follow the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus.

Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"
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M*W: "LISTEN TO HIM," God says. God DIDN'T SAY "believe that he died for you!" That's where the lies come in.
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Trinity doesn't mean three Gods. It describes the threefold nature of one God. The only separation between them is human, not divine.
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M*W: This is impossible. Why should God be divisible? God is divine, because God IS human. There is no separation between human and divine.
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Isaiah 49:6
he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
----------
M*W: Again, this has absolutely NO reference to Jesus. Isaiah is talking about his own son yet to be born. He was actually patting himself on the back for conceiving this child who would "restore the tribes of Jacob, etc....". He refers to the impending birth of his son whom he will "make a light for the Gentiles" and through whom he, Isaiah, may bring "my salvation to the ends of the earth." He was talking about his progeny.
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Who is like God? Who proclaimed and declared it? God himself!

Revelation 1
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!
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M*W: The "First and the Last" refers to the One Spirit of God. He speaks of "being dead," but when he realizes that the One Spirit of God dwells within him, he realizes that he is "alive for ever and ever."
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But unless Jesus is really the Word of God, then all other gods are like him - promising salvation but never delivering!
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M*W: Everything in creation is the "word of God." That means Jesus is redundant.
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1 Corinthians 8
4...We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
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M*W: This is what Paul said. Jesus NEVER said this. xians today are "Paulinians" not Christians. When you start quoting Jesus's actual words, I may start believing you. (PS: No one knows what Jesus's actual words were, so don't hurt yourself)!


Amen.

Ugh, I give.

It was late, I was grumpy, and irritated with MW for continuing to dodge me whenever I press her on any issue.
Forgive my intrusion; I have no real desire to argue semantics and interpretation from a Christian perspective I do not hold.

~Raithere

And now a quote from an opposing viewpoint.
... the Scriptures proclaim that Christ made himself equal with God" (John 5:18) and that "in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). The Bible further states that Christ claimed to be the great I AM (Jehovah) of the Old Testament (see Exodus 3:13-6 with John 8:58), and the Jew during his ministry understood Him so clearly that they sought to stone Him to death for blasphemy (John 8:59; 10:28.33)
Our Lord taught His Full Deity (John 8:58, John 8:24) and the Bible calls Him the "Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" (Revelation 1:11, 17, 18). Yet it is Jehovah alone who declares that He is "the first...the last" (Isaiah 44:6). Since there can be only one first and last, God fully manifested Himself in Jesus Christ, "the first and the last" (Revelation 1:17, 18) as the Scriptures and the Christian Church maintain.
Jesus is God by what He said. Only God could say: "I am the Light, I am the Way, I am the Truth; I am the Vine; I am the Life; I am the Resurrection; I am from above." These are the words of God.
Jesus is God by the life that He lived. What He was is what God is - Jesus, holy, sinless, pure, the perfect man, and only God is perfect.
Jesus is God because Jesus did only what God could do. He would speak to the raging wind and waves, "Be still". (Mk. 4:39). He would say to the paralytic, "Arise" (Mk. 9:6) and he could walk. He would say to the leper, "Be thou clean" (Lk. 5:13) and the leper was whole. He would say to the dead, "Come forth" (Jn. 11:43) and the dead rise again. In Romans 1:4 Jesus "Is declared to be the Son of God with power" which means He was marked out or pointed out to be the Son of God with power.
Jesus is God for His promise is the promise of God. The hope and promise that He offers is the hope and the promise of God. In life He is our friend, fellow pilgrim. He walks with us. He is there to help us. In sorrow He is our comfort. The hope and the promise that we have in Christ is that of God.
We are told in 1 Timothy 3:16: "And without controversy great if the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH." This is the foundation truth (confessed by Peter, Matthew 16:16) upon which the whole of Christianity rests. "Without controversy" means it is a matter beyond the reason of man. Controversy is futile and out of place. God was manifest in the flesh, in Christ. Christ taught that He was God in John 10:30; 14:9; 6:42; 5:23. He behaved as if He were God in Matthew 9:2; Matthew 2:11; John 14:13-14; and He raised the dead.
"All men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him." John 5:24.
You do not honour the Son because you deny His claims to deity. You cannot, therefore, be honouring the Father either. Pastor Perry F. Rockwood http://www.tpgh.org/archive/christis.htm


Plus some other opposing viewpoints.

http://www.peaceministry.org/freq1.htm

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SVRP

Jesus is God by YOUR interpretation. There is NOTHING in the Old Testament that refers to Jesus, and the New Testicle, what isn't plagarized, is filled with lies.

Only God could say: "I am the Light, I am the Way, I am the Truth; I am the Vine; I am the Life; I am the Resurrection; I am from above."

I don't follow...

whattya mean "only god could say.."? Anyone can say that sentence, it isn't difficult. In fact, i think David Koresh said it a good few times. I guess that makes him one of the dissections of god. Any idea which Jenyar? Left leg perhaps, or maybe the right ear?

He would say to the dead, "Come forth" (Jn. 11:43) and the dead rise again.

Word of advice: Never ever trust necromancers. Nasty people.

Furthermore, everyone seems to forget Hebrews where god specifically says jesus is nothing more than a priest.

M*W:
Jesus NEVER said this.
...
(PS: No one knows what Jesus's actual words were, so don't hurt yourself)!
Obviously you are the only person in the world who knows what Jesus said and what he didn't.

Originally posted by Jenyar
Obviously you are the only person in the world who knows what Jesus said and what he didn't.

Maybe so. Don't you wish you did?

Originally posted by SVRP
... the Scriptures proclaim that Christ made himself equal with God" (John 5:18) and that "in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9).

Only the NT scriptures proclaim such nonsense. The OT simply does not support this blasphemy; see Isaiah 14:10 and Ezekiel 28:2.

The Bible further states that Christ claimed to be the great I AM (Jehovah) of the Old Testament (see Exodus 3:13-6 with John 8:58), and the Jew during his ministry understood Him so clearly that they sought to stone Him to death for blasphemy (John 8:59; 10:28.33)
Our Lord taught His Full Deity (John 8:58, John 8:24) and the Bible calls Him the "Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" (Revelation 1:11, 17, 18). Yet it is Jehovah alone who declares that He is "the first...the last" (Isaiah 44:6). Since there can be only one first and last, God fully manifested Himself in Jesus Christ, "the first and the last" (Revelation 1:17, 18) as the Scriptures and the Christian Church maintain.
Jesus is God by what He said. Only God could say: "I am the Light, I am the Way, I am the Truth; I am the Vine; I am the Life; I am the Resurrection; I am from above." These are the words of God.

Jesus wasn't the first to make such claims, and he wasn't the last. But there was a special fate awaiting those who made such claims to their fellow Jews in biblical times, as required by their god. See Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:6-10.

Jesus is God by the life that He lived. What He was is what God is - Jesus, holy, sinless, pure, the perfect man, and only God is perfect.

You mean, he was perfect until iniquity was found in him; see Ezekiel 28:12-15.

Jesus is God because Jesus did only what God could do...He would say to the dead, "Come forth" (Jn. 11:43) and the dead rise again.

To be more precise, Hell stirred up the dead for him; see Isaiah 14:9.

If there are any OT passages that could possibly be a reference to Jesus at all (veiled or otherwise), they are Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 - Jesus fits the classic "fallen god" pattern found in both of these chapters. I'm just not sure Christians are willing to admit this.

Originally posted by Nehushta
Only the NT scriptures proclaim such nonsense. The OT simply does not support this blasphemy; see Isaiah 14:10 and Ezekiel 28:2.
And that is why Jesus was crucified! The law condemned him for blasphemy even when he never blasphemed, because he was the real thing. The law ended up condemning the truth, and that exposed the weakness of the law, and established the superiority of the Truth.

Jesus wasn't the first to make such claims, and he wasn't the last. But there was a special fate awaiting those who made such claims to their fellow Jews in biblical times, as required by their god. See Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:6-10.
There is one major difference, and that is what the claims were and what God's reaction was. The king of Babylon fell like a star (cf. Satan who "fell to earth like lighting" according to Jesus). The similarity is there, almost like a natural course of events: birth, life, death... but where the Morning Star claimed he would be equal with God, Jesus never voiced that claim - he never said "I am God", he never amassed wealth or became proud. Instead, he let the truth speak for itself. The difference between Jesus and Lucifer was humility. Both "descended into death", but only Jesus was resurrected and acclaimed by God himself.
You mean, he was perfect until iniquity was found in him; see Ezekiel 28:12-15.
Wickedness and inequity was found in the King of Tyre, but it wasn't found in Jesus. That is why death had no hold on him.

Originally posted by Jenyar
And that is why Jesus was crucified! The law condemned him for blasphemy even when he never blasphemed, because he was the real thing. The law ended up condemning the truth, and that exposed the weakness of the law, and established the superiority of the Truth.

Jesus was not Truth. He didn't keep his promise to return for his followers in their lifetimes; he lied about preaching openly and keeping none of his teachings secret; he lied to his brothers about going to the feast of Tabernacles; he lied about upholding Jewish law; he lied when he said that he was sent only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel - Jesus was a liar! At least, his "truths" were not revealed openly to everyone - that is, he intentionally deceived people by the way he worded the things he told them. It's kind of like those lateral thinking puzzles that purposely lead you astray with their clues. Or like certain movies, like "The Sixth Sense" or "The Usual Suspects," that intentionally deceive the viewer into believing one thing, while brazenly flaunting the obvious truth, daring the viewer to move beyond the deception and discover the man behind the curtain, so to speak.

There is one major difference, and that is what the claims were and what God's reaction was. The king of Babylon fell like a star (cf. Satan who "fell to earth like lighting" according to Jesus). The similarity is there, almost like a natural course of events: birth, life, death... but where the Morning Star claimed he would be equal with God, Jesus never voiced that claim - he never said "I am God", he never amassed wealth or became proud. Instead, he let the truth speak for itself. The difference between Jesus and Lucifer was humility. Both "descended into death", but only Jesus was resurrected and acclaimed by God himself.

Wickedness and inequity was found in the King of Tyre, but it wasn't found in Jesus. That is why death had no hold on him.

The King of Babylon, Prince of Tyre and King of Tyre were the archetypes from which Jesus was created. Jesus even revealed that he was the Morning Star at the end of Revelations. How much plainer does it need to be?

Originally posted by Nehushta
Jesus was not Truth. He didn't keep his promise to return for his followers in their lifetimes;
He did return, first in the garden, then to the Emmaus travellers, then to the twelve, then to 500 witnesses.
he lied about preaching openly and keeping none of his teachings secret;
He did preach openly, and where did he say what he would keep secret and what would be revealed when the time was right?

he lied to his brothers about going to the feast of Tabernacles;
I've addressed this before.
he lied about upholding Jewish law;
He fulfilled the law and gave it back its meaning. Merely upholding it, apparently, wasn't all it was cracked up to be.
he lied when he said that he was sent only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel
He was only sent to the lost sheep, that didn't mean we couldn't eat the crumbs that fell from the table - and that is more than enough, as He would prove twice.
- Jesus was a liar! At least, his "truths" were not revealed openly to everyone - that is, he intentionally deceived people by the way he worded the things he told them. It's kind of like those lateral thinking puzzles that purposely lead you astray with their clues.
It's like anything in life where you only learn if you do the thinking yourself. And you only prove that you've thought about it by solving the puzzle. He was always there to explain it to those who asked (read it after each parable...)
Or like certain movies, like "The Sixth Sense" or "The Usual Suspects," that intentionally deceive the viewer into believing one thing, while brazenly flaunting the obvious truth, daring the viewer to move beyond the deception and discover the man behind the curtain, so to speak.
Nicely put: if you look at the scientific answer, for example, you will miss the truth. If you practise looking for it, you will see the truth more and more easily. Like watching "The Sixth Sense", "Vanilla Sky", "Memento", or "The Others" three or four times.

The King of Babylon, Prince of Tyre and King of Tyre were the archetypes from which Jesus was created. Jesus even revealed that he was the Morning Star at the end of Revelations. How much plainer does it need to be?
Archetypes are types of a thing - they are not the thing. If you don't study them, learn from them or look for them, they will just pass you by as another puzzling parable...

Neshusta wrote Jesus was not Truth. He didn't keep his promise to return for his followers in their lifetimes; he lied about preaching openly and keeping none of his teachings secret; he lied to his brothers about going to the feast of Tabernacles; he lied about upholding Jewish law; he lied when he said that he was sent only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel - Jesus was a liar! “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of thing Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” C.S Lewis

And wouldn’t you know this “liar” was raised from the dead. Go figure. :)

M*W wroteJesus is God by YOUR interpretation. There is NOTHING in the Old Testament that refers to Jesus, and the New Testicle, what isn't plagarized, is filled with lies. Thank you for your response, M*W, but there are more than 300 prophecies Jesus fulfilled during His lifetime. One of them is prophesied in Daniel 9:25, 26. According to the verse, the specific timeline of the appearance of the Messiah is after the rebuilding, and before the destruction, of Jerusalem and the temple. The destruction occurred in 70 AD.
Plus the Old Testament gives a clear outline as to who, what, where and how the Messiah will appear.
Go to the following websites for more.

http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/moshiach.htm

http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/messiah/messiah.htm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SVRP
[B]And wouldn’t you know this “liar” was raised from the dead. Go figure. :)
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M*W: No he wasn't. That still makes PAUL a liar.
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M*W wrote Thank you for your response, M*W, but there are more than 300 prophecies Jesus fulfilled during His lifetime. One of them is prophesied in Daniel 9:25, 26.
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M*W: If Jesus "fulfilled more than 300 prophecies during his lifetime" then the "prophecies were written in the OT AFTER THE FACT!
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According to the verse, the specific timeline of the appearance of the Messiah is after the rebuilding, and before the destruction, of Jerusalem and the temple. The destruction occurred in 70 AD.
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M*W: So where is your messiah now?
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Plus the Old Testament gives a clear outline as to who, what, where and how the Messiah will appear.
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M*W: Yes, and the Jews are still waiting for the messiah who HAS NOT COME! All you have is a dead rabbi.

M*W is actually right on this one! The anointed one in this passage refers to Cyrus. As I remember it, Isaiah says "my anointed one", Cyrus will free you and you will build the temple. The dream that Cyrus had is documented somewhere but supposively the God of Isreal appeared to him.

if im remembering this correctly as I reply, someone stated that the prophesies Jesus fulfilled were recorded after he had "fulfilled" them. However the texts that we have in Greek of the old testament were actually recorded approx. 200 years before Jesus was born. therefore, they couldnt have been written after he had fulfilled them. also it was said that *i think they said* 400 or 500 people saw Jesus after he had risen, that many people could not have had the exact same testimony if it was a lie, but they all had the same testimony so it is reasonable to say that they were telling the truth, and if it was a delusion, ask any psychologist and they will tell you it is impossible for that many people to have the same exact delusion at the same exact time.

Originally posted by SVRP
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of thing Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” C.S Lewis

And wouldn’t you know this “liar” was raised from the dead. Go figure. :)

You mean he was cast from his grave like an abominable branch (see Isaiah 14:19) - merely part and parcel of the whole fallen god archetype, which was the foundation of the Christ myth.

M*W wrote Thank you for your response, M*W, but there are more than 300 prophecies Jesus fulfilled during His lifetime. One of them is prophesied in Daniel 9:25, 26. According to the verse, the specific timeline of the appearance of the Messiah is after the rebuilding, and before the destruction, of Jerusalem and the temple. The destruction occurred in 70 AD.
Plus the Old Testament gives a clear outline as to who, what, where and how the Messiah will appear.

And when the promised Messiah doesn't appear, the only thing to do is create one. Of course, wait a respectable amount of time after the alleged events to record them so there won't be anyone around who could present a significant challenge to your spurious claims. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Nehushta
You mean he was cast from his grave like an abominable branch (see Isaiah 14:19) - merely part and parcel of the whole fallen god archetype, which was the foundation of the Christ myth.
Not merely - significantly. The branch is the same idea as the stone that the builder's rejected...

You can only come to the "fallen god" conclusion if you connect the prophesies with Israel, Israel with the messiah, the messiah with Jesus, and Jesus with God. Otherwise you are just pushing an interpretation that you have rejected yourself time and again.

And when the promised Messiah doesn't appear, the only thing to do is create one. Of course, wait a respectable amount of time after the alleged events to record them so there won't be anyone around who could present a significant challenge to your spurious claims. :rolleyes:
The problem is that you can't only create a messiah at whim - many likely and fitting people have tried and failed. You can't claim to be a messiah - you have to be recognized as one. So it isn't easy to fake. There is also no good reason to create one that doesn't exist, because that defeats the purpose of having a messiah.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jenyar
[B]You can only come to the "fallen god" conclusion if you connect the prophesies with Israel, Israel with the messiah, the messiah with Jesus, and Jesus with God. Otherwise you are just pushing an interpretation that you have rejected yourself time and again.
----------
M*W: Your theory is flawed. The prophecies of Israel may refer to a coming and future messiah, but there is NO connection to JC. The only connection between JC and God was the one created by Paul for fun profit. Why do you think he conveniently changed his name from a Hebrew one to a Latinized one? So the people he scammed would identify with him. As late as 325 AD, the divinity of JC was still in question. At that time, the church fathers decided to include it as dogma. It's YOUR interpretation that is being rejected time and again. Why do you try to put words in other people's mouths? You're a scam artist just like Paul was. You choose to believe JC died for you, personally, and that's your perogative, but 3/4 of the world doesn't believe that JC died for them. Regardless of all the theories surrounding the fate of JC, the one you choose is the least of all logical and provable outcomes, and its numbers are dwindling as we speak. You can deny all these alternate theories all you want, but that doesn't make your fantasy version anymore right or true. When the truth is discovered, and it will be sooner than later, what will YOU personally do when you learn the news? What will the remaining 1/4 of the world's xian population do when they find out what they've been programmed to believe is untrue? These are the questions that I am concerned with. How will this discovery impact millions of people and their lives? Or will xianity just simply die a natural death?
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The problem is that you can't only create a messiah at whim - many likely and fitting people have tried and failed. You can't claim to be a messiah - you have to be recognized as one. So it isn't easy to fake. There is also no good reason to create one that doesn't exist, because that defeats the purpose of having a messiah.
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M*W: Faking the messiah! Whom else but you would say such a thing! Is that a Freudian slip, Jenyar? Are these your subliminal fears? No one can "create a messiah." However, xians have done a very good job for 2000+ years identifying and interpreting the messiah they have created in their minds!

I believe there is only one God/Allah (not 3-in-1; not 3 "personalities" of God, but ONE (1) and only ONE. Everything in creation is the One God. So, there are no separate messiahs, no dying saviors, no virgin births, no demigods. You are right about one thing, "there is also no good reason to create one that doesn't exist," God was there before we existed, and God lives through us, with us, and in us, for all eternity, all time, and time will never end. Your interpretation of a messiah is flawed. That's why messiah as you do. The messiah as I see it (and, yes, "it"), is the One Spirit of God dwelling within us, and as we become an enlightened "body" and "spirit" with the total blending of the races and the genders, our cumulative "spirit" will emanate from the then perfected human race which will be the true messiah on Earth. When we reach that state of human/spiritual perfection, there will be no illnesses, no wars, no famines, no pollution, no religion, no human reproduction, no crime, and on and on.... So, Jenyar, you can believe what you want to believe, but your religion is dying. There's absolutely no need for anyone to create their own version of a messiah. It's all in the interpretation. We know the messiah will come in time, and we just might be surprised to find out it was the One Spirit of God living through us all along.

The messiah as I see it (and, yes, "it"), is the One Spirit of God dwelling within us, and as we become an enlightened "body" and "spirit" with the total blending of the races and the genders, our cumulative "spirit" will emanate from the then perfected human race which will be the true messiah on Earth. When we reach that state of human/spiritual perfection, there will be no illnesses, no wars, no famines, no pollution, no religion, no human reproduction, no crime, and on and on....

That's quite a fairy tale you're spinning, but no where near as plausible as the JC fairy tale.

How can we have "One Spirit of God" and no religion?

Originally posted by Jenyar
Not merely - significantly. The branch is the same idea as the stone that the builder's rejected...

You can only come to the "fallen god" conclusion if you connect the prophesies with Israel, Israel with the messiah, the messiah with Jesus, and Jesus with God. Otherwise you are just pushing an interpretation that you have rejected yourself time and again.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here - it almost, but not quite, sounds like you're agreeing with me (and I know that can't be the case). Please explain what you're trying to say, and what interpretation you believe I've rejected time and again.

What I'm saying is that Jesus was intentionally created using this pattern (i.e., Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28), which made him the opposite of what the Jews were expecting in a Messiah. I believe it was the Gnostics who first did this, although they were not trying to fool anyone with their mythology. The outer myth was used to help them understand the inner mysteries. The Literalists came along afterward and brought this mythical godman out of his heavenly realm and down to earth as a flesh and blood man (whether from ignorance or malice, who knows?).

The problem is that you can't only create a messiah at whim - many likely and fitting people have tried and failed. You can't claim to be a messiah - you have to be recognized as one. So it isn't easy to fake. There is also no good reason to create one that doesn't exist, because that defeats the purpose of having a messiah.

But a messiah might evolve from existing myths and rumors, if one didn't actually show up in the flesh when expected. And the stories of Jesus were not well known until long after his alleged death, and the "facts" of his life were not set in stone until hundreds of years later, and only then by those with an agenda (e.g., unification of the crumbling Roman Empire).

M*W wrote No he wasn't. That still makes PAUL a liar.We might not know all the details, chronology, or psychology of what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus but we do know this: it radically affected every area of his life.
First, Paul's character was drastically transformed. The Encyclopaedia Britannica describes him before his conversion as an intolerant, bitter, persecuting, religious bigot - proud and temperamental. After his conversion he is pictured as patient, kind, enduring, and self-sacrificing. Kenneth Scott Latourette says: "What integrated Paul's life, however, and lifted this almost neurotic temperament out of obscurity into enduring influence was a profound and revolutionary religious experience."
Second, Paul's relationship with the followers of Jesus was transformed. "Now for several days he was with the disciples who were at Damascus" (Acts 9:19). And when Paul went to the apostles, he received the "right hand of fellowship."
Third, Paul's message was transformed. Though he still loved his Jewish heritage, he had changed from a bitter antagonist to a determined protagonist of the Christian faith. "Immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, 'He is the Son of God' " (Acts 9:20). Paul's intellectual convictions had changed. His experience compelled him to acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah, in direct conflict with the Pharisees' messianic ideas. His new conception of Christ meant a total revolution in his thought. Jacques Dupont acutely observes that after Paul "had passionately denied that a crucified man could be the Messiah, he came to grant that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, and, as a consequence, rethought all his messianic ideas."
Also he could now understand that Christ's death on the cross, which appeared to be a curse of God and a deplorable ending of someone's life, was actually God through Christ reconciling the world to himself. Paul came to understand that through the crucifixion Christ became a curse for us (Galatians 3:13) and was "made…to be sin on our behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:21). Instead of a defeat, the death of Christ was a great victory, being capped by the resurrection. The cross was no longer a "stumbling block" but the essence of God's messianic redemption. Paul's missionary preaching can be summarized as "explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead… 'This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ,' " he said (Acts 17:3).
Fourth, Paul's mission was transformed. He was changed from a Gentile-hater to a missionary to Gentiles. He was changed from a Jewish zealot to an evangelist to Gentiles. As a Jew and Pharisee, Paul looked down upon the despised Gentile as someone inferior to God's chosen people. The Damascus experience changed him into a dedicated apostle, with his life's mission aimed toward helping the Gentile. Paul saw in the Christ who appeared to him the Savior for all people. Paul went from being an orthodox Pharisee whose mission was to preserve strict Judaism to being a propagator of that new radical sect called Christianity which he had so violently opposed. There was such a change in him that "all those hearing him continued to be amazed, and were saying 'Is this not he who in Jerusalem destroyed those who called on this [Jesus'] name, and who had come here for the purpose of bringing them bound before the chief priests?' " (Acts 9:21).
Historian Philip Schaff states: "The conversion of Paul marks not only a turning-point in his personal history, but also an important epoch in the history of the apostolic church, and consequently in the history of mankind. It was the most fruitful event since the miracle of Pentecost, and secured the universal victory of Christianity." Quoted from “DID YOU HEAR WHAT HAPPENED TO SAUL” By Josh McDowell http://www.yfiles.com/saul.htm

Thank you for your response, M*W, but there are more than 300 prophecies Jesus fulfilled during His lifetime. One of them is prophesied in Daniel 9:25, 26.
M*W wroteIf Jesus "fulfilled more than 300 prophecies during his lifetime" then the "prophecies were written in the OT AFTER THE FACT! Better read the history of the OT again, M*W. The Hebrew Bible was standardized centuries before Jesus arrived. Nothing was changed or added.

M*W wrote So where is your messiah now? Choose a verse, M*W, and you have your answer.
John 14:1-3 - "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.”
Mr 16:19 - So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
Lu 22:69 - "But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD."
Ac 2:33 - "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
Ac 5:31 - "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Ac 7:55, 56 - But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;
and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
Ro 8:34 - who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Col 3:1 - Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Heb 10:12 - but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
Heb 12:2 - fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1Pe 3:22 - who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Plus the Old Testament gives a clear outline as to who, what, where and how the Messiah will appear. M*W wrote Yes, and the Jews are still waiting for the messiah who HAS NOT COME! All you have is a dead rabbi.
"After the sixty-two sevens, the Anointed One will be cut off (yikaret) and have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary (temple)." (cf. Daniel 9:26)

The Hebrew term, yikaret, implies a sudden, violent death. This is a precise description of Jesus’ brutal death on the cross. Another astonishing aspect deals with the fact that the Temple was destroyed some forty years after Christ's crucifixion; clearly fulfilling Daniel’s prediction of the "sanctuary" being demolished right after the death of the Messiah! Hence, Jesus must be the Messiah since the prophecy clearly states that the Messiah must appear before the destruction of the second Temple. The only person who fits the bill is Jesus Christ, since He is the only one who claimed that his death was essential in providing the atonement that was both necessary to usher in God’s everlasting righteousness and to eradicate sin.

Furthermore, any denial of Jesus’ Messiahship is essentially a denial of Daniel’s authenticity as a prophetic book since the condition of the prophecy rests upon the arrival of the Messiah before the Temple’s destruction. Yet, if Jesus is not Messiah then Daniel is proven to be a false prophet since the Temple has been destroyed and the Messiah has not come. Hence, once the weight of historical occurrences and mathematical calculations is thrown behind the prophecies of the Bible, it becomes increasingly impossible to deny the fact that Jesus is the promised Messiah.

Additional confirmation of the messianic overtones of Daniel 9:25-27 comes from the Talmud itself:

“In Daniel is delivered to us the end [‘the time of His appearance and death’ - Rabbi Jarchi] of the Messiah.” The Talmud also records that about the time of the Roman general Titus’ destruction of the Temple (70 A. D.), the Messiah was believed to have already come, yet His identity was concealed from the Jews until they were rendered more worthy of His appearance!” (Frank Delitzch and Paton Gloag, The Messiahship of Christ / The Messianic Prophecies of Christ [Minneapolis, MN; Klock & Klock, 1983 rpt.], pt. 2, p. 226)

Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi stated: “I have examined the Holy Scriptures, and have not found the time for the coming of the Messiah, clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the ninth chapter of the prophecy of Daniel.” Quoted from http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/messiah/messiah.htm

Nehushta wrote But a messiah might evolve from existing myths and rumors, if one didn't actually show up in the flesh when expected. And the stories of Jesus were not well known until long after his alleged death, and the "facts" of his life were not set in stone until hundreds of years later, and only then by those with an agenda (e.g., unification of the crumbling Roman Empire).The New Testament accounts of the resurrection were being circulated within the lifetimes of men and women alive at the time of the resurrection. Those people could certainly have confirmed or denied the accuracy of such accounts.
The writers of the four Gospels either had themselves been witnesses or else were relating the accounts of eyewitnesses of the actual events. In advocating their case for the gospel, a word that means "good news," the apostles appealed (even when confronting their most severe opponents) to common knowledge concerning the facts of the resurrection.
F. F. Bruce, Rylands professor of biblical criticism and exegesis at the University of Manchester, says concerning the value of the New Testament records as primary sources: "Had there been any tendency to depart from the facts in any material respect, the possible presence of hostile witnesses in the audience would have served as a further corrective."
Because the New Testament provides the primary historical source for information on the resurrection, many critics during the 19th century attacked the reliability of these biblical documents.
By the end of the 1 9th century, however, archaeological discoveries had confirmed the accuracy of the New Testament manuscripts. Discoveries of early papyri bridged the gap between the time of Christ and existing manuscripts from a later date.
Those findings increased scholarly confidence in the reliability of the Bible. William F. Albright, who in his day was the world's foremost biblical archaeologist, said: "We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after about A.D. 80, two full generations before the date between 130 and 150 given by the more radical New Testament critics of today."
Coinciding with the papyri discoveries, an abundance of other manuscripts came to light (over 24,000 copies of early New Testament manuscripts are known to be in existence today). The historian Luke wrote of "authentic evidence" concerning the resurrection. Sir William Ramsay, who spent 15 years attempting to undermine Luke credentials as a historian, and to refute the reliability of the New Testament, finally concluded: "Luke is a historian of the first rank . . . This author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians."
From E. M. Blaiklock, Professor of Classics, Auckland University: “I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . . “ Quoted from “Evidence for the Resurrection” by Josh McDowell http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

Historians have found that there were a number of people proclaiming themselves as “messiahs” during the time of Jesus, inciting revolts or revolutions against the Roman authorities. And when these “messiahs” died, their followers dissolved into obscurity, only to follow another self-proclaimed “messiah”. (Acts 5:34- 39) This habit was evident of Jesus’s followers when the authorities came to arrest Jesus. His followers ran away and hid for their lives. With the death of Jesus, they should have dissolved and looked for another. But that didn’t happened. After some time they were out on the streets proclaiming that Jesus rose from the dead and they were witnesses to that fact. (Acts 4:5- 14) They were bold enough to take the message of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead to the world. If they had not seen it with their own eyes it would be doubtful they would have given their lives for something they weren’t sure of. Jesus gave the responsibility of proclaiming His resurrection and the “good news” to the Apostles. For that they faced horrible executions, which is a strong indication they actually saw the resurrected Christ and believed what they taught. The testimony of seeing the resurrected Jesus was written with their blood. It is doubtful they would have been able to do this great work of spreading the gospel if they did not really believe that they had seen the risen Lord with their own eyes.

My friends at this time and age the spirit of anti-christ is all over the world. it manifests in people being mad,intolerant,abusive and offended at anything to do with Jesus. Indeed it is often overlooked when one curses using four letter words; but the mere mention of the name Jesus evokes discomfort and anger in many. At work managers will be quick to ask one to stop telling about Jesus, than to stop cursing.

There is no other name given unto men for salvation but the name of Jesus! ( Acts 4:12).

You will ask salvation from what? it is salvation from eternal damnation to those whose names are not in the book of life.
The ungodly(sinful) will not inherit the kingdom of heaven ; neither will fornicators,adulterers,sorceres,those who consult mediums e.g psychics, murderers, and whover practices lies.

The begining chapter of the book of John says in the begining was the word the word was with God and the word was God.
He came to his own and his own received him not.The word was made flesh and dwelt among us. ( That is God took the flesh in Jesus but he was rejected by sin-loving mankind.)

Read john chapter one verses 1 to 13. be humble and prayerful and God will help you understand the powerful message.

Finally God is a spirit. although jesus had the flesh and bones of a man, within him was the spirit of God who is God himself.

The only way you will know who Jesus was is if you have a personal encounter with him, that is you must be born-again to know who Jesus is . That means accepting you are a sinner and asking jesus to come into your inner being and save you from your sins. Amen

<i><b>M*W: Your theory is flawed. The prophecies of Israel may refer to a coming and future messiah, but there is NO connection to JC. The only connection between JC and God was the one created by Paul for fun profit. </b></i>
Interesting. Your not the only one who made that connection.
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism the destroyer. Nevertheless, the Galilean, who later was called the Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who took up His position against Jewry. Galilee was a colony where the Romans had probably installed Gallic legionaries, and items certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son a whore and a Roman soldier. The decisive falsification of Jesus's doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work with subtlety and for purposes of personal exploitation. For the Galilean's object was to liberate His country from Jewish oppression. He set Himself against Jewish capitalism, and that's why the Jews liquidated Him. "(Hitler)

I have to wonder why you think you can do better than Hitler? Your just shouting the same old tiresome lies of Paul corrupting everyone.

<i><b>
Why do you think he conveniently changed his name from a Hebrew one to a Latinized one? So the people he scammed would identify with him. As late as 325 AD, the divinity of JC was still in question.</b></i>
The divinity of the Jesus was not in question.

Originally posted by tomasito
My friends at this time and age the spirit of anti-christ is all over the world. it manifests in people being mad,intolerant,abusive and offended at anything to do with Jesus. Indeed it is often overlooked when one curses using four letter words; but the mere mention of the name Jesus evokes discomfort and anger in many. At work managers will be quick to ask one to stop telling about Jesus, than to stop cursing.

Cursing doesn't typically go on an on, ad nauseum - it usually ends as abruptly as it begins, consisting of nothing more than a single word or phrase uttered in frustration. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the endless and aggressive proselytizing of certain Christians. Imagine if a Satan-worshipper went on all day at work about his god the way some Christians do about theirs - how long would you tolerate such nonsense if you were the manager in charge? Not long, I would imagine. Now imagine that the Satan-worshipper sees himself as being persecuted for his beliefs when he is told to shut up. I'm sure you would be able to easily see the ridiculousness of such a charge in that particular case, and yet you are completely blind to it when you're the one annoying others with your proselytizing. Why is that?

There is no other name given unto men for salvation but the name of Jesus! ( Acts 4:12).

Except for Mithra. And Krishna. And Tammuz. And Baal. And Attis. And then there's Horus. And Osiris. And don't forget Dionysus/Bacchus. Not to mention Zoroaster/Zarathustra.... :rolleyes:

You will ask salvation from what? it is salvation from eternal damnation to those whose names are not in the book of life. The ungodly(sinful) will not inherit the kingdom of heaven ; neither will fornicators,adulterers,sorceres,those who consult mediums e.g psychics, murderers, and whover practices lies.

And you can't see why the rest of the world might be irritated at you when you go around spouting this offensive kindergarten theology?

The begining chapter of the book of John says in the begining was the word the word was with God and the word was God. He came to his own and his own received him not.The word was made flesh and dwelt among us. ( That is God took the flesh in Jesus but he was rejected by sin-loving mankind.)

The book of John is also where we are told that Jesus is like the brass serpent, Nehushtan, which was eventually destroyed because people erroneously started worshipping it (see John 3:14, Numbers 21:9 and 2 Kings 18:4). This comparison is worthy of some deeper thought. The brass serpent was a molten image made by a man to represent the real serpents that God had sent to harm man. When they looked at the image of the serpent, they were healed. But when they started worshipping the image, the image itself was destroyed. Jesus also claims responsibility for introducing sin into the world (see John 15:22), which was also the serpent's role. Can you see the implications here?

Read john chapter one verses 1 to 13. be humble and prayerful and God will help you understand the powerful message.

Interesting. This passage says that John is the Light-Bearer (aka, Lucifer), and the message he brings is from a being of Light who is the god of this world. This being of Light promises to confer Divinity on those who believe in him. Does this ring any bells for you?

Finally God is a spirit. although jesus had the flesh and bones of a man, within him was the spirit of God who is God himself.

See Psalms 82, and pay particular attention to verses 6 and 7.

The only way you will know who Jesus was is if you have a personal encounter with him, that is you must be born-again to know who Jesus is . That means accepting you are a sinner and asking jesus to come into your inner being and save you from your sins. Amen

And the only way to find out for sure if that strange man with the bloody sword in his hand, who is standing on your porch and knocking on your front door, is really the serial-killer that has been plaguing your community, may be to let him in to your home - but is that really advisable? :eek:

Originally posted by okinrus
I have to wonder why you think you can do better than Hitler? Your just shouting the same old tiresome lies of Paul corrupting everyone.

I have to wonder why you feel the need to demonize M*W by comparing her beliefs to Hitler's? Hitler said a lot of things about Jesus and Christianity, many of them conflicting. He was a confused and evil man, but that doesn't automatically invalidate every single belief he ever held, does it? He clearly recognized the evil inherent in the Christian philosophy, but in seeking to fill the spiritual void that was left when he rebelled against his religious upbringing, he chose a path that turned out to be even worse. This is at least partly because he allowed hatred to fill that void and take control of his destiny. I think it is possible to see the evil in a particular philosophy, and choose a higher road instead. That Hitler failed to do this doesn't mean that everyone who recognizes the problems with Christian theology should be dismissed as another Hitler.

The divinity of the Jesus was not in question.

Well then, the degree of his divinity was hotly debated, to put it mildly. Obviously, either Jesus failed to make this point clear to his disciples, or they failed to make it clear to the audiences to whom they preached the "good news."

<i><b>I have to wonder why you feel the need to demonize M*W by comparing her beliefs to Hitler's? </b></i>
I'm not demonizing her, but notifying her. M*W seems to be a nice person <i>but</i> she use the same illogical premises as Hitler. Now it's not like this was the first thing that M*W had said. We have been arguing for months about Paul, gnostic perversions, and her apparant bias. In fact, I'd almost venture say that M*W using Hitler as a source when she was saying that christianity was a disease, that christianity should be destroyed, that transubstantiation was the result of mass delusions, and that christianty was diabolical? And it's not like her religion is that much different than christiantiy.

<blockquote>
Paul of Tarsus, who was originally one of the most stubborn enemies of the Christians, suddenly realised the immense possibilities of using, intelligently and for other ends, an idea which was exercising such great powers of fascination. He realised that the judicious exploitation of this idea among non-Jews would give him far greater power in the world than would the promise of material profit to the Jews themselves. It was then that the future St. Paul distorted with diabolical cunning the Christian idea. out of this idea, which was a declaration of war on the golden calf, on the egotism and the materialism of the Jews, he created a rallying point for slaves of all kinds against the elite, the masters and those in dominant authority. The religion fabricated by Paul of Tarsus, which was later called Christianity, is nothing but the Communism of to-day."(Hitler)</blockquote>

<blockquote>
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery. A negro with his tabus is crushingly superior to the human being who seriously believes in Transubstantiation." </blockquote>

<i><b>
Hitler said a lot of things about Jesus and Christianity, many of them conflicting. He was a confused and evil man, but that doesn't automatically invalidate every single belief he ever held, does it? </b></i>
He allowed himself to be controled by demons.

<i><b>
That Hitler failed to do this doesn't mean that everyone who recognizes the problems with Christian theology should be dismissed as another Hitler.</b></i>
Well no. I'm dismissing her claim to destroy Christiantiy because Hitler had that ambition and was defeated. As for you, you are just posting false claims off of websites. If you actually looked into some of them, perhaps you might see them as false. For instance, you say that Jesus compared himself to the serpent Nehushtan but this is clearly false. There were two serpents that Jesus refered to himself. One made by Moses in the desert where all of the tribes would look at if bitten by a snake and the staf that was thrown to the ground and became a serpent but was raised up. Your going to keep making these mistakes if you don't read what your trying to attack.

Tomasito:
There is no other name given unto men for salvation but the name of Jesus! ( Acts 4:12).


Wrong. Tell this to the easterns, the aboriginees, the Sans and Navajos, the meso-pueblo indians and Peruvians.....tell this to all those other cultures you Christians know nothing about.

For someone claiming enlightment, you sure do have a way of narrowing things down to noxious absolutism.

My friends at this time and age the spirit of anti-christ is all over the world. it manifests in people being mad,intolerant,abusive and offended at anything to do with Jesus
Never, ever confuse offense with marked indifference. You people have tendencies to bring up the Nazarene at the most importune, if not inane, times.

Or don't you know what I'm talking about? Don't forget who you're talking with "Tomasito".

The begining chapter of the book of John says in the begining was the word the word was with God and the word was God.
He came to his own and his own received him not.The word was made flesh and dwelt among us. ( That is God took the flesh in Jesus but he was rejected by sin-loving mankind.)

And if Vishnu himself wrote the same things in the Vedas my being a Hindu would be the same as you being an annoying little Christian, Thomas.

You.Don't.Get.It.

Originally posted by okinrus
As for you, you are just posting false claims off of websites. If you actually looked into some of them, perhaps you might see them as false. For instance, you say that Jesus compared himself to the serpent Nehushtan but this is clearly false. There were two serpents that Jesus refered to himself. One made by Moses in the desert where all of the tribes would look at if bitten by a snake and the staf that was thrown to the ground and became a serpent but was raised up. Your going to keep making these mistakes if you don't read what your trying to attack.

I beg your pardon? What website is saying that Jesus compared himself to Nehushtan? I'd really like to know, because I have been searching for this enlightened site for a long time now. Actually, I do read the bible, okinrus. And this was my own discovery (although I fully realize I couldn't be the first to have made this connection - I just haven't seen it addressed elsewhere).

And please prove to me how it wasn't the brasen serpent, Nehushtan, that Jesus was comparing himself to in John 3:14. And explain to me how you arrived at the conclusion that it was instead the rod of Moses, which he had cast onto the ground at God's command at Mount Horeb, and at first had fled from when it turned into a serpent (if that is indeed what you are claiming - this is still a bit unclear yet). Where is it written that he raised this particular serpent up in the wilderness? It does say that when he caught it by the tail, it turned back into a rod again, but I missed the part where Moses lifted it up in the wilderness. Besides, once Moses laid his hand on it, it was no longer a serpent, so how could he have ever held it up as a serpent? I also assume you are not referring to the rod that Aaron turned into a serpent during his performance for Pharoah in Egypt?

No - given the context of John 3:14, I still assert that Jesus was referring to the brasen serpent that Moses had made and raised up in the wilderness (which the people later named "Nehushtan" and started worshipping). I believe it is you who has made an error here.

<i><b>
The book of John is also where we are told that Jesus is like the brass serpent, Nehushtan, which was eventually destroyed because people erroneously started worshipping it (see John 3:14, Numbers 21:9 and 2 Kings 18:4).</b></i>
Yes, I wasn't aware that Nehushtan was the name of the serpent that Moses made in the wasteland. Nevertheless, this passage has nothing to do with a serpent that Moses made, God forbid. Moses was given staff and with his right arm he threw it to the floor and it became a snake. Then this snake ate all the magistians snakes and Moses picked it up before the Pharoah and became a staff. The bronze serpent was never picked up and raised before someone like that. Also, the context that John uses it in would require that it was some sort of miraculus event.

Originally posted by okinrus
Yes, I wasn't aware that Nehushtan was the name of the serpent that Moses made in the wasteland. Nevertheless, this passage has nothing to do with a serpent that Moses made, God forbid. Moses was given staff and with his right arm he threw it to the floor and it became a snake. Then this snake ate all the magistians snakes and Moses picked it up before the Pharoah and became a staff. The bronze serpent was never picked up and raised before someone like that. Also, the context that John uses it in would require that it was some sort of miraculus event.

And just how would you define miraculous? Moses lifted up the brass serpent that he made so that all those who had been bitten by the fiery serpents could look at it and be healed from the otherwise fatal bites.

Besides, I think you're monkeying around a bit with scripture when you say that Moses threw his staff to the floor and it became a snake, or that Moses raised his staff before Pharoah - nevermind the fact that a staff is not a serpent. For one thing, it was Aaron who threw his rod to the floor and it turned into a snake (see Exodus 7:10), and it was Aaron who lifted his rod to smite the river in Pharoah's sight (see Exodus 7:19-20). Not to mention that you've just moved the entire event to the wilderness.... :rolleyes:

I think it might be a good idea for you to reread John 3:14-15:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

And I think you also need to review the story of Moses and the brass serpent (Numbers 21:5-9):

And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

And this review would not be complete without the story of how Hezekiah put an end to the brass serpent (2 Kings 18:4), since that was a major part of my point to begin with:

He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Even if you don't agree with my conclusions, can you at least see what I've been saying?

Originally posted by Nehushta
And just how would you define miraculous? Moses lifted up the brass serpent that he made so that all those who had been bitten by the fiery serpents could look at it and be healed from the otherwise fatal bites.

Besides, I think you're monkeying around a bit with scripture when you say that Moses threw his staff to the floor and it became a snake, or that Moses raised his staff before Pharoah - nevermind the fact that a staff is not a serpent. For one thing, it was Aaron who threw his rod to the floor and it turned into a snake (see Exodus 7:10), and it was Aaron who lifted his rod to smite the river in Pharoah's sight (see Exodus 7:19-20). Not to mention that you've just moved the entire event to the wilderness.... :rolleyes:

I think it might be a good idea for you to reread John 3:14-15:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

And I think you also need to review the story of Moses and the brass serpent (Numbers 21:5-9):

And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

And this review would not be complete without the story of how Hezekiah put an end to the brass serpent (2 Kings 18:4), since that was a major part of my point to begin with:

He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Even if you don't agree with my conclusions, can you at least see what I've been saying?

----------
M*W: I can, God Nehusta!

Ok, perhaps your right. Let's say that Jesus did compare himself to the the brass serpent. It is clearly in the sense of healing the snake bites, so I'm uncertain why you are saying there is a contradiction here.
]

Originally posted by okinrus
God doesn't change
then god is not rational.
then why pray
then creation was a whim

ect...

What do you mean god does not change :)

Originally posted by okinrus
Ok, perhaps your right. Let's say that Jesus did compare himself to the the brass serpent. It is clearly in the sense of healing the snake bites, so I'm uncertain why you are saying there is a contradiction here.
]

I'm not saying there is a contradiction - what I'm saying is that there's always more to what Jesus said (or rather, what was attributed to him) than meets the eye. You always have to dig a little deeper to find the complete meaning, and it isn't what Christians would expect. On the surface of it, Jesus was saying that he must be lifted up like the brass serpent Moses made so that all who believed in him would have eternal life. He says nothing of where that eternal life would be spent, of course. What he doesn't tell you is that he is the image of the Serpent, and the jealous god of the OT didn't want his people worshipping images or anyone or anything other than himself. For this reason the biblical god usually destroyed all such objects of worship (or rather, his priests did). Jesus' fate was sealed as soon as he made himself like the most high and became an object of worship (see also Isaiah 14, which is practically a biblical portrait of Jesus, though viewed in a different light). But he knew this going in - his role was as a stumblingblock to catch the unfaithful Jews in their idolatry - to separate the tares from the wheat, to paraphrase a parable. He was a member of God's vice squad - a lying spirit in the mouth of a prophet (which is all that Satan ever was, when you think about it).

Although there is much you can learn from his words, if you are willing to make the effort, you make a huge mistake in worshipping him as God.

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
----------
M*W: I can, God Nehusta!

I'm glad someone does! :)

<i><b>What do you mean god does not change </b></i>
God doesn't lie or change his indentity. If he did, then then that part of him that changed would not be God because I believe God is I AM and eternally existant.

<i><b>
You always have to dig a little deeper to find the complete meaning, and it isn't what Christians would expect. On the surface of it, Jesus was saying that he must be lifted up like the brass serpent Moses made so that all who believed in him would have eternal life. He says nothing of where that eternal life would be spent, of course. </b></i>
Eternal life in the bible is always a referance to heaven in constrast to eternal death in hell.

<i><b>
Jesus' fate was sealed as soon as he made himself like the most high and became an object of worship</b></i>
The apostles did not worship Jesus as God until after his death and resurrection.

<i><b>
He was a member of God's vice squad - a lying spirit in the mouth of a prophet </b></i>
Yes, occasionally God will allow evil spirits, ie. in Kings, to test Isreal but most of the words that Jesus said are common sense. But the Jesus portrayed in the New Testament is obviously not Satan. God does not have some sort "vice squad" that does evil and remains in his presence. All wickedness is removed from his presence (one of the pslams). Are you claiming that Satan was not a murder and not a lier when he clearly participated in Adam's and Cain's sin? So basically your saying that Jesus tested us by fortellings his death and were wrong for believing he fullfilled Isaiah 43:9 "Let all the nations gather together, let the peoples assemble! Who among them could have revealed this, or foretold to us the earlier things? Let them produce witnesses to prove themselves right, the one may hear and say, "It is true" . You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servants whom I have chosen." The stone of Zechariah, "Yes, I will bring my servant the Shoot. Look at the Stone that I have placed before before Joshua, one stone with seven facets. I will engrave its inscription, says the LORD of hosts, and I will take away the guilt of the land in one day."..."For even they who were scornful on that day of small beginnings shall rejoice to see the select stone in the hands of Zerubabel. These seven facets are the eyes of the LORD that range over the whole earth." So this stone is a different stone? I have to admit, your God is unusally cruel?

Originally posted by okinrus
God doesn't lie or change his identity. If he did, then that part of him that changed would not be God because I believe God is I AM and eternally existent. When you wrote the sentence: “God doesn’t change” I don’t know how I was suppose to get “God doesn’t lie” out of it? Why not just write: “God doesn’t lie?”

So that just leaves “God doesn’t change his identity”. So why not just write that instead of writing “god doesn’t change” and expecting me to understand that as meaning “god doesn’t change his identity”? I think people just like the sound of “god doesn’t change” as I have heard it from a number of Muslims and Christians. But it really has little if any meaning. That is the sentence “God doesn’t change”. I’m not even sure if it makes any sense – logically.

So, as that isn't what you mean, and what you REALLY meant was: god doesn’t lie or change its identity? Well, I think I understand the fibbing part. Which leaves ID.

What do you mean god doesn’t change its identity?

<i><b>When you wrote the sentence: “God doesn’t change” I don’t know how I was suppose to get “God doesn’t lie” out of it? Why not just write: “God doesn’t lie?” </b></i>
I don't think "God doesn't change" was the main point of what I was saying. When someone says "God doesn't change" they usually mean God's nature doesn't change. The traits that God has don't change.

<i><b>think people just like the sound of “god doesn’t change” as I have heard it from a number of Muslims and Christians.</b></i>
Well it's in the bible. When someone says "God doesn't change" they don't mean God is a rock that doesn't speak but a Rock that does speak.

Originally posted by okinrus
I have to admit, your God is unusally cruel?

Hey - it's your god, not mine!

Originally posted by okinrus
When someone says "God doesn't change" they usually mean God's nature doesn't change. The traits that God has don't change. 1)What is god's nature?
2) What are god's traits?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael
[B]1)What is god's nature?
2) What are god's traits?
----------
M*W: A while back, LaserEyes gave a very vivid description of God's physical appearance and emotional traits.

Originally posted by Nehushta
I'm not sure what you're getting at here - it almost, but not quite, sounds like you're agreeing with me (and I know that can't be the case). Please explain what you're trying to say, and what interpretation you believe I've rejected time and again.
Yes, I was almost agreeing with you - up to the point where you stopped differentiating between the prophecy and the fulfillment.

What I'm saying is that Jesus was intentionally created using this pattern (i.e., Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28), which made him the opposite of what the Jews were expecting in a Messiah. I believe it was the Gnostics who first did this, although they were not trying to fool anyone with their mythology. The outer myth was used to help them understand the inner mysteries. The Literalists came along afterward and brought this mythical godman out of his heavenly realm and down to earth as a flesh and blood man (whether from ignorance or malice, who knows?).
Jesus was a man that fit the profile - and not only the messianic profile, but a few others as well, notably the suffering servant and God's salvation. Priest, prophet and king. Heathens did not create him, and neither did the Gnostics. The differences are too specific and intentional. See Was the NT influenced by Pagan religions? (http://www.equip.org/free/DB109.htm).

But a messiah might evolve from existing myths and rumors, if one didn't actually show up in the flesh when expected. And the stories of Jesus were not well known until long after his alleged death, and the "facts" of his life were not set in stone until hundreds of years later, and only then by those with an agenda (e.g., unification of the crumbling Roman Empire).
You are blowing it out of proportion. The same is true for Judaism. Even though they had thousands of years of religion and prophets, most of the Hebrew Bible was only fixed after the destruction of the second temple, and the rest of it only after the destruction of the third. To say that beliefs only became doctrinal when they were canonized (i.e. accepted on paper) is a modern information age fallacy. For the most part, oral tradition was authorative, while the written form was secondary. Things were only written down when their corruption became a threat.

For a better perspective on how the messianic expectancy started, archaeologically (as opposed to theoretically) I suggest you read this (http://www.historian.net/dssxr.htm) as an introduction.

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SVRP

Jesus is God by YOUR interpretation. There is NOTHING in the Old Testament that refers to Jesus, and the New Testicle, what isn't plagarized, is filled with lies. is this your sense of humor, your true belief or a Freudian slip?

Originally posted by Nehushta
Cursing doesn't typically go on an on, ad nauseum - it usually ends as abruptly as it begins, consisting of nothing more than a single word or phrase uttered in frustration. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the endless and aggressive proselytizing of certain Christians. You can't be talking about Tomasito, since this was his first post (count the posts by his name), but as for the rest of us Christians, why it’s our duty; yes, day in, day out

If Jesus existed, he was as much the son of god as anyone else.

Why "god" though?

I mean, what a useless, pointless word that people work themselves up over. I think the word is entirely sickening as it carries with it the malice, ignorance and stubborness of an entire fucking planet.

Fuck "god".

Jesus was not god, I am!!

at least that is what my girlfriend calls me at nights sometimes..
(oooo!! god, ohh god) you get the drift..

At least I'm happy the guy was named Jesus!!,

It be terrible to hear my girlfriend yell (Alliya Mohammad) or something...

As for the bables interpretation of a Messiah, well that is another mess of a (beign) we have no proof existed or not. Doubtfull some Romans soldier fell sleep when Jesus walked out of the cave, back in those days guards that fell asleep were killed.

On another note, lots of the parables Jesus spoke about were all ready written by other authors, remember he spent a while in Egypt this been were he got educated.

I've drag this out, as we have some new fundis.
I thought he would be good to see what they would say to it's premis.
I hope you dont mind M*W.

Man is not God. How could man be God? Can man create the butterfly? No!
Man begins as a seed. The seed is sown. Man is born, male and female.
Jesus 'came' as a human being. From where did he come? To whom was he born and to whom did he go to? Jesus said "Why do you call me 'good'.No one is Good except God alone."
Jesus was killed. Why was Jesus killed for numbering himself with all flesh? Jesus saw God in nature and being a part of nature, Jesus saw God in his self too. Man after all is more important to us than the butterfly.
Jesus was a man. Like you. But he sought God with his whole being from an early age such was his nature to do. He realised that his act of searching bore fruit. When he was baptised by John, a voice came from Heaven saying "This is my son, with whom I am well pleased"
Now if God calls you 'His son', who the hell is man to argue?
In fact it was this very reason that Jesus was killed. God's simple declaration destroyed all of man's reasoning and also their hopes in the little kingdom's they had built to serve themselves using fear of God's almighty wrath against the poor to keep them under the thumb, not realising of course that they were to reap exactly what they had sown, whilst of course the poor would go free with Jesus.
We often, like the Pharisee's and authorities of Jesus' day, think that our rules are set in stone and we try and force other's to live by them because it suits us to have power of people. But God's laws, the ones that were set in stone, were fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ. When Jesus was baptised and God spoke about his feelings for Jesus, it is written that a dove descended from Heaven and rested upon Jesus. The Holy Spirit then completely ruled in Jesus' heart, the Spirit itself completely obedient to God's will. The Spirit is so lovely that when man receives Him, that man cannot help but be carried on it's strength such is it's power. Now Jesus who knew scipture inside and out was prompted by the Spirit to fulfill the prophecies written about him. Now the Spirit was encouraging Jesus to surrender without a fight, to humbly turn the other cheek. The act of doing this on a daily basis consistently proved to Jesus that it was The Way, The Truth and The Life. Jesus' faith was more than proved to be justified with each miracle that he performed. Jesus was as much a witness to the miracle as the people around him were which is why he could never take credit for them but instead always gave the Glory to God who was working through him by the Holy Spirit which he received.
Jesus was sent by God to suffer. To be God's suffering servant. Jesus knew that this role would not be understood by the world but to him it was revealed in it's truest glory. If you are someone's suffering servant, tirelessly serving their master's needs, how much does that master come to rely upon the servant for his own rest? Jesus knew that God valued him {This is my Son in Whom I am well pleased} and it was this relationship that was between them through Jesus, The Holy Spirit and God The Father, The Most High God, King Of Kings that so richly brought God's love into the world {For God so loved the world ...}.
When we see the three of them working together throughout the Gospels we can quite easily see the relationship.

The Holy Spirit convicts Jesus of Truth, Jesus believes the Spirit and follows the conviction that He is doing the will of the One who sent him, even unto death by crucifixion. The Spirit continuosly prompting him with scripture that takes Jesus to his final purpose, which is to say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do!".
and having not heard a reply, Jesus is alone, "Why have you forsaken me" and then "It is done". Jesus is who God says He is. "My son in whom I am well pleased." God doesnt change. He is a constant. Therefore I advise you to turn to Him who said "It is done" because in Him and only in Him is it actually done. He holds the keys so to speak. As He says "I am the first and the last", yes Jesus was the first and the last who may say "It is done" and in Him, in His heart, the sinner is justified, cleansed through His blood. Never before has man been justified in the flesh but Jesus did this. He took the full force of the law for man's sins and did not blame man even though he was just a man. This proves that in Him we are forgiven. This is why the Christian wants to know Jesus. It is about being sanctified through His death and raised to life with Him even as He was raised to life. Jesus knew that He wasn't doing his own will. Love does not seek it's own way after all. Jesus was being convivted by the Holy Spirit of his purpse, the Purpose that had been given him by the one who sent him, that we may know God's heart for us. That God , The Most High God, The King of King would send his own Son into the world to be unto Him a suffering servant that would serve to justify man by His offering. Jesus' offering? Well "Not my will be done, but your will be done". And with that He was crucified. But death could not keep Him. Obviously. He is God's son after all. God said.

peace

c20

Randolfo: Originally posted by Medicine*Woman - is this your sense of humor, your true belief or a Freudian slip?
*************
M*W: What do you think?

Hmm... Interesting topic.

My opinion about this issue can be put into one sentence.

Never did Jesus, peace be upon him, claim himself to be God.

Peace be upon you :)

Jesus is an aspect of god. Like smoke from fire, like the wind in space, like ice in water, like dust on earth - the word, "logos". The creative power of the universe, without which nothing is created. Flesh is flesh, and the flesh of jesus was "human", but in the inside he is "the word of god".

786 are you refering to the qu-ran, because you are right, if that is the case.
however you are wrong if you meant he bible, "I and my father are one".John 10:30
these are jesus own words, I think he believed he was god.

and what768 there is no wind in space, or any god anywhere.

This is the dilema for those who profess to be Christians. How can Jesus be God?

The catch of course is that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and "There is none righteous, no not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

When Paul says this (he is quoting the Psalms) he puts us all in two categories - God and everyone else. Everyone is a sinner except God. God alone is righteous. Where then is Jesus? Is he God or part of everyone else. If Jesus is not God then he is an unrighteous sinner. If Jesus is not God then he cannot be without sin and thus must die for his own sins - he cannot die for everyone else's sins. The whole Christian faith teeters on this one thought - is Jesus God.

The answer for all Christians MUST be that Jesus IS God. Those who claim to follow God (Yehovah) but deny that Jesus is God are only kidding themselves. We call these denominations Cults - Mormans, Jehovah's Witness, The Way. (What then are Jews?)

Jesus is an aspect of god. Like smoke from fire, like the wind in space, like ice in water, like dust on earth - the word, "logos". The creative power of the universe, without which nothing is created. Flesh is flesh, and the flesh of jesus was "human", but in the inside he is "the word of god".

And He calls us brothers. Imagine being with Him where He is. All of us as Temples For the Holy Ghost sharing the Bread of Life, a flowing river , love unto us purified and holy, sanctified and justified and glorified by The Word.

peace

c20

786 are you refering to the qu-ran, because you are right, if that is the case.
however you are wrong if you meant he bible, "I and my father are one".John 10:30
these are jesus own words, I think he believed he was god.

No, no, I don't "refer" to anything! But yes, Jesus is "god"! Only "his body" was flesh! He was an aspect of "god", that also means that he is "god".

and what768 there is no wind in space, or any god anywhere.

Hehe, :) I thought that sounded weird. Actually I meant the wind on "earth", but I had to say space, and earth is in space too!

Yeah, I know there is no "god" anywhere. Not the kind you're thinking of. I wouldn't believe in him either if I was you!

786 are you refering to the qu-ran, because you are right, if that is the case.
however you are wrong if you meant he bible, "I and my father are one".John 10:30
these are jesus own words, I think he believed he was god.

and what768 there is no wind in space, or any god anywhere.

I think I had addressed this verse in another thread. But oh well...Here I go again.

JOHN 10:30 "I and the Father are one [hen]." (NASU)

What did he mean by this declaration? Was he proclaiming that he was co-equal and co-eternal with the Father? Was Jesus saying that he and the Father were of the same essence or substance? Just what exactly was he trying to convey?

First, let's look at the Greek word hen (one).

In Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament, the late Professor Vincent states that hen, the Greek word translated "one" in John 10:30, is "the neuter, not the masculine είς, one person" (p. 197, vol. II).

Regarding this statement by Jesus, the Abingdon Bible Commentary says: "V. 30 does not affirm a metaphysical unity, but a moral, and we must not read the later creeds into the words" (p. 1079).

In A Commentary, Critical, Experimental, and Practical, Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown write of this verse:

Our language admits not of the precision of the original in this great saying, 'We (two Persons) are One (Thing).' Perhaps 'one interest' expresses nearly, though not quite, the purport of the saying. (p. 414, vol. III, part I)

The use of hen in John 10:30 clearly indicates that Jesus was not claiming that he and the Father were the same being. An examination of how the same Greek word hen ("one") is used in other Scriptures will help us see what Christ did intend to convey by his statement.

Let's look at Jesus's prayer to the Father on the night before his crucifixion. In this supplication, he speaks several times of the state of being "one":

JOHN 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be ONE [hen] even as We are. (NASU)

Here Jesus prays that God the Father would keep his disciples in His name.

How was it possible for Jesus's disciples to be ONE in the same way that Jesus and the Father were ONE? Are you saying that Jesus is asking to make the desciples part of the Trinity? I think you and me, and everyone else knows that that answer is NO!. Well lets not stop here. A litte later. Jesus is praying and says:

JOHN 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word; 21 that they all may be ONE [hen], as You, Father, are in me, and I in You; that they also may be ONE [hen] in us, that the world may believe that You sent me. 22 And the glory which You gave me I have given them, that they may be ONE [hen] just as we are ONE [hen]: 23 I in them, and You in me; that they may be made perfect in one [eis], and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them as You have loved me." (NKJV)

I think it is very clear. We now know how Jesus and Father were ONE. One in message, I would say.

Peace be upon you :)

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,


http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusquestions.htm

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Hahn/isjesusgod.htm

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,


http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusquestions.htm

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Hahn/isjesusgod.htm

Show me where JESUS claims to be God?

I am not interested in anyones comments. Especially on something so big.

Peace be upon you :)

Show me where JESUS claims to be God?

I am not interested in anyones comments. Especially on something so big.

Peace be upon you :)

Easy

John 5:39-44
39"You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40Yet you refuse to come to me so that I can give you this eternal life.
41"Your approval or disapproval means nothing to me, 42because I know you don't have God's love within you. 43For I have come to you representing my Father, and you refuse to welcome me, even though you readily accept others who represent only themselves. 44No wonder you can't believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don't care about the honor that comes from God alone.

That little word 'me' is what you unbelievers trip over, time and time again.
Jesus' words are for life, eternal life, not just for Christmas.

peace

c20

Easy

John 5:39-44
39"You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40Yet you refuse to come to me so that I can give you this eternal life.
41"Your approval or disapproval means nothing to me, 42because I know you don't have God's love within you. 43For I have come to you representing my Father, and you refuse to welcome me, even though you readily accept others who represent only themselves. 44No wonder you can't believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don't care about the honor that comes from God alone.

That little word 'me' is what you unbelievers trip over, time and time again.
Jesus' words are for life, eternal life, not just for Christmas.


This quote was pertaining to Jews, although you could apply it to "unbelievers" as a whole if you wish. Jews are commanded to follow the law of Moses, and Deuteronomy says even a prophet who appears works signs, but leads you away from God, to kill that prophet. If Jesus wouldn't have spoken things contrary to the law of Moses, and claimed to be God, then he wouldn't have been delivered up to the Romans for crucifixion. Yes, this could be a Jewish view. I'm not saying it's my view. ;) I don't know if the NT is completely historically accurate.

c20H25N3o: Easy

John 5:39-44
39"You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40Yet you refuse to come to me so that I can give you this eternal life.
41"Your approval or disapproval means nothing to me, 42because I know you don't have God's love within you. 43For I have come to you representing my Father, and you refuse to welcome me, even though you readily accept others who represent only themselves. 44No wonder you can't believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don't care about the honor that comes from God alone.

That little word 'me' is what you unbelievers trip over, time and time again. Jesus' words are for life, eternal life, not just for Christmas.
*************
M*W: Not written by Jesus, and not written by Paul. Who was the beloved disciple? Who was the beloved disciple writing this to?

Recent biblical archeologists and scholars believe the Gospel of John, the Beloved Disciple, to be written by Mary Magdalene about 90-95AD. Mary knew Jesus intimately and loved him with all of her being. She was a royal woman of independent means. She wasn't the wanton whore christianity made her out to be. In this passage, Mary is talking to the other disciples who lived at this late time after Jesus. She is basically calling Paul a liar. MM is admitting that the gospel of John points to her, not Jesus. MM was a mystic along the same lines as Jesus was a mystic. MM also refers to the seven seas or the seven de-mons of the world. All life comes from the seas which MM represented. Jesus cast out seven de-mons (seas of the world) from MM. It truly is MM who gives all life -- eternal life from the sea. MM was talking to Peter and Paul who she feared and told Jesus she feared them.

The little word 'me' refers to Mary Magdalene, the symbolic seven seas de mon (of the world) and also the seven de mons by the sea, or Septimania (seven heads) of the Languadoc in France. MM's words were about eternal life, which is what Jesus taught but did NOT die for. It was MM who was the savior -- not Jesus.

c20H25N3o: Easy

John 5:39-44
39"You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40Yet you refuse to come to me so that I can give you this eternal life.
41"Your approval or disapproval means nothing to me, 42because I know you don't have God's love within you. 43For I have come to you representing my Father, and you refuse to welcome me, even though you readily accept others who represent only themselves. 44No wonder you can't believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don't care about the honor that comes from God alone.

That little word 'me' is what you unbelievers trip over, time and time again. Jesus' words are for life, eternal life, not just for Christmas.
*************
M*W: Not written by Jesus, and not written by Paul. Who was the beloved disciple? Who was the beloved disciple writing this to?

Recent biblical archeologists and scholars believe the Gospel of John, the Beloved Disciple, to be written by Mary Magdalene about 90-95AD. Mary knew Jesus intimately and loved him with all of her being. She was a royal woman of independent means. She wasn't the wanton whore christianity made her out to be. In this passage, Mary is talking to the other disciples who lived at this late time after Jesus. She is basically calling Paul a liar. MM is admitting that the gospel of John points to her, not Jesus. MM was a mystic along the same lines as Jesus was a mystic. MM also refers to the seven seas or the seven de-mons of the world. All life comes from the seas which MM represented. Jesus cast out seven de-mons (seas of the world) from MM. It truly is MM who gives all life -- eternal life from the sea. MM was talking to Peter and Paul who she feared and told Jesus she feared them.

The little word 'me' refers to Mary Magdalene, the symbolic seven seas de mon (of the world) and also the seven de mons by the sea, or Septimania (seven heads) of the Languadoc in France. MM's words were about eternal life, which is what Jesus taught but did NOT die for. It was MM who was the savior -- not Jesus.

Oh please. Why would MM exalt herself above her Lord? She called Jesus her Lord. Now why would she do that? Did Jesus rebuke her for calling Him that? Of course not! Given that Jesus is who He is, why would MM be afraid of anyone given that Jesus would extol the virtue of "Do not be afraid of those who can hurt the body and do no more."
Why would a savior be afraid of anyone except God Himself? Come on M*W. I tell you the truth MM herself would say she didn't know you whilst you preach such blatant rubbish about her Lord.

peace

c20

I tell you the truth MM herself would say she didn't know you whilst you preach such blatant rubbish about her Lord.

How can you testify this is truth? Is it because you personally know MM?

I think I had addressed this verse in another thread. But oh well...Here I go again.

I think it is very clear. We now know how Jesus and Father were ONE. One in message, I would say.

Peace be upon you :)

can you please explain these from jesus, as they all say he's god.

this is to make it clear of gods intentions
Jn.1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Jn.1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."

and in jesus'es own words.


Jn.8:58
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
Jn.10:30-31
"I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him."
Jn.10:38-39 this is your favourite
"The Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him."
Jn.20:28
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God."
Col.2:8-9
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
Titus 2:13
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
Phil.2:6
" Who, b