Imagine if you will, a 3 year old child living in a household with her mother, stepfather, aunt and grandparents. The mother and stepfather are both drug addicts and the child is in the care of her 18 year old aunt when the aunt is not at school (other times it appears she is left in the care of her mother and stepfather). The child is abused by her stepfather and the grandparents often comment on his and the mothers drug addiction and abuse of the child. Their interference stops there however.

Now imagine one day the child falls ill and begins to vomit (lets say it is a stomach upset). Her stepfather orders her to only throw up in a bucket and to not go to sleep. Unfortunately, she throws up on herself and closes her eyes. This angers her drug addicted stepfather so much that he decides to push her body against the basin in the bathroom, with his full weight bearing down onto her 15kg body. This is done in an attempt to scare her. He has apparently done this before and it has scared her enough to listen to what he wanted her to do. There is a difference this time however. The difference is she dies on this particular occasion.

Sadly this story is not one wrought from my imagination. This actually happened to a 3 year old girl.Link (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/sick-child-killed-for-vomiting/2007/11/20/1195321781953.html)

Now my question here is not about what this man's punishment should be. What I would like to ask you is whether any of you think the mother, grandparents and aunt should be charged with neglect and not contacting the authorities when they knew this little girl was being abused.

Should they have interceded on her behalf and gotten her out of the situation she was in before it ended like it did?

Quach's intention to harm Liliana was highlighted at the time of his arrest, when he told police: "(Dieu's) parents started saying stuff, they said me and Dieu were junkies and we bashed her (Liliana). I thought if I'm going to be accused of it, I might as well do it."

Another family member who lived at the house said Liliana appeared scared of Quach, who would sometimes drag her crying into his bedroom.

Do you think the other family members who lived in that house should bear some responsibility for what happened to this child under their very noses?

Absolutely yes.

The needs of the child and the safety of the child should be priority number one.

They saw trouble coming, they stuck their heads in the sand, culpable to some degree.

What I would like to ask you is whether any of you think the mother, grandparents and aunt should be charged with neglect and not contacting the authorities when they knew this little girl was being abused.
Do you think the other family members who lived in that house should bear some responsibility for what happened to this child under their very noses?

You've raised a very interesting point if only by the title of the thread ..."It Takes a Village to Raise a Child".

So, ...does that mean that the entire village should be held responsible for the death of the little girl? And if so, to what extent? I'd guess that almost everyone in the village knew about the abuse, even if they only knew about the drugs and the neglect. And remember, no punishment of anyone is going to bring the little girl back to life.

I don't know ... Are we to be our brother's keeper?

Baron Max

PS- just remember, that post was me trying to be a nice guy. The real Baron Max would just take all of them out behind the barn and shot 'em ....and be done with them. People like that have no place in society ...get rid of them, don't punish them, just get rid of them.

You've raised a very interesting point if only by the title of the thread ..."It Takes a Village to Raise a Child".

So, ...does that mean that the entire village should be held responsible for the death of the little girl? And if so, to what extent? I'd guess that almost everyone in the village knew about the abuse, even if they only knew about the drugs and the neglect. And remember, no punishment of anyone is going to bring the little girl back to life.

I don't know ... Are we to be our brother's keeper?


That's what I am asking Baron. Is it enough to say it is no one's business when something like this occurs under one's own roof? As you say, to what extent should we interfere. When should we interfere? In this instance, I personally think the child should never have been in that house. Period.

I remember getting cranky the other week when my parents were here for lunch and my eldest was acting like a terrible 2 (which he is at the moment). So I sent him to his room after a particular brutal period of high pitched screaming for no reason. The reason I was cranky was not so much for my son's behaviour, but because my father piped up and told me off in front of my son because I had dared sent him to his room. He then took my son outside and gave him chocolate. Granted I was not beating or abusing my son. I had merely sent him to his room to calm down. But I resented their interference. Had I spanked my son, I suspect I would probably have been slapped by my father.

You're right, no amount of punishment of those involved or on the sidelines will bring that girl back. But it does have a sense of justice. Hard question.

PS- just remember, that post was me trying to be a nice guy. The real Baron Max would just take all of them out behind the barn and shot 'em ....and be done with them. People like that have no place in society ...get rid of them, don't punish them, just get rid of them.

Scary to say, but I agree with you fully.

[QUOTE=Bells;1639968]The reason I was cranky was not so much for my son's behaviour, but because my father piped up and told me off in front of my son because I had dared sent him to his room. He then took my son outside and gave him chocolate. QUOTE]

Oh! Bells.
Parental condemnation of your parenting skills.
That just pushes my buttons!
I bet Daddy only has a brief view of a microcosm of your relationship with your son; yet feels completely justified in undermining you. * empathetic sympathies!*

That's what I am asking Baron. Is it enough to say it is no one's business when something like this occurs under one's own roof? As you say, to what extent should we interfere. When should we interfere?

Bells, the problem here is a big dilemma in any and all nations/villages that profess "freedoms". The cops have this dilemma shoved into their faces ten times or more a day ...and they can't do anything about it, or if they do, they and the city gets sued for "infringing on citizen's rights". And it's not just the cops, it's social workers, advocates of the homeless, addiction clinics, ..., and a whole slew of such people. In their hearts, they know what's going on is wrong, but legally, they can do nothing ....without infringing on the "rights" of others.

Justice? C'mon, Bells, as an attorney, you should know that that's really just a word that people throw around so as to sound ....intelligent. :D

I still go with my gut feelings .....shot 'em and let God sort 'em out later.

Baron Max

Could family members not be charged with accessory to murder?

Could family members not be charged with accessory to murder?

at the very least, child endangerment.

Its a very common sight in India for neighbors to get involved in any incident. Any kind of untoward or extraordinary happening just needs a loud voice or a shout and the neighbors will be banging on the door to know whats going on. I remember many instances from my childhood. I also remember that if anyone we knew was having family issues, there would be a large gathering of people who would sit and discuss what should be done. I don't recall anyone ever calling the cops. Physical abuse, emotional abuse, neglect were issues that all the old chins would mull over and decide what the best course is for the child.

Even instances like a woman suffering a difficult pregnancy or a difficult time with in-laws and sometimes sexual matters (behind closed doors and in hushed voices, unfortunately) were discussed in deep depth over endless cups of tea. Ponits of view were offered, chores distributed, meals arranged, babysitting organised. I don't know how much it helped, but having that kind of support system itself must have been a tremendous advantage. Sadly, with the nuclearisation of family today, such chai time discussions are becoming a thing of the past.

at the very least, child endangerment.

Sure, probably. But then ...how many other people knew what was going on in that house? How many others suspected something like that? Should we charge them all? And if not, why charge some people, but not the others?

See? It's not so simple ....unless we do it my way; Take those who lived in the house and knew what was going on and shoot 'em. No society needs people like in their midst. And if we start shooting such people, pretty soon everyone will be a little nicer to their kids, don'tcha' think? And we might save lots of little kids by just killing a few nasty people that no one wants anyway. Shoot 'em, let God sort it out.

We continually throw up too many "grey areas" instead of just fixing the problems. Too many homeless people? Shoot 'em, don't invent silly-assed "grey areas" of philosophical discussions about "rights" and all that bullshit. Just shoot 'em and let God sort it out later.

Baron Max

Sure, probably. But then ...how many other people knew what was going on in that house? How many others suspected something like that? Should we charge them all? And if not, why charge some people, but not the others?...

I don't know how many others knew. Considering she wasn't in school or went to a daycare, I'm gonna guess not many.

They should go to jail for doing nothing when they could have alerted someone and helped the child.

Bells, the problem here is a big dilemma in any and all nations/villages that profess "freedoms". The cops have this dilemma shoved into their faces ten times or more a day ...and they can't do anything about it, or if they do, they and the city gets sued for "infringing on citizen's rights". And it's not just the cops, it's social workers, advocates of the homeless, addiction clinics, ..., and a whole slew of such people. In their hearts, they know what's going on is wrong, but legally, they can do nothing ....without infringing on the "rights" of others.

Justice? C'mon, Bells, as an attorney, you should know that that's really just a word that people throw around so as to sound ....intelligent. :D

I still go with my gut feelings .....shot 'em and let God sort 'em out later.

Baron Max
If a crime is being committed, they are obligated to act. They being the law enforcement officers and social workers (if the wellbeing of a child is at risk for example). In a recent case in New South Wales (Australia), a seven year old girl starved to death in her bedroom.

The pathologist who carried out the post-mortem said her body was emaciated, dehydrated, muscles were wasted and she had no subcutaneous fat.

Shellay's eyeballs had shrunk, her ribs stuck out and there was no rigor mortis because her muscles were so severely wasted. There was no food in her stomach and no liquid in her bladder.

"Dr Kasinathan Nadesan concluded the death is very likely due to chronic malnutrition and neglect," court documents said.

When called to the home about 1pm on November 3, ambulance staff found Shellay dead on a mattress in a room littered with faeces, police said.

"She was wearing some items of bed clothing and three pairs of socks, which had been on for an extended period of time causing her skin to waste," the fact sheet stated.
Link (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22801091-2862,00.html)


Further links to this story. (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22797112-1242,00.html)

When questions were raised about why the Department of Community Services (DOCS) had not interfered prior to this and seeing that the family were known to DOCS as being a problem family, the answer from DOCS was to say they had attempted to see the girl often, but each time they made contact with the family, they were told the girl was away and they were refused access to the home. The little girl weighed 9 kilograms when the paramedics were called after she had died. The question that should now be asked is why DOCS simply took the parents word for the girl's absence and why they simply did not do more to see the child in the first place. Had they interfered as they were meant to do, the little girl would still be alive. What will probably come of this case? The usual inquiry and recommendations which at the end of the day, do nothing to ensure this does not happen again. In short, fuck all.

----------------------------------------------------------------

In this particular case however, it is the extended family who were fully aware of the mother's and stepfather's drug abuse in the home (they shared the same house and the mother's room was littered with needles and drugs) and they were also aware of the abuse the little girl suffered at their hands (the family had commented to the stepfather that he and the mother beat her). How they did nothing more is beyond me. Undermining the parenting skills of someone is one thing. But to blithely ignore the abuse of a child is another thing altogether. I don't know as yet whether they will face any charges. Personally I think they should. I often wonder just how far family pride, and the whole 'we keep it in the family', should really go. When someone's health is at risk, pride and privacy should be thrown out the window and everything done to help the individual in danger. Sadly, in most instances, this is not always the case.

Oh! Bells.
Parental condemnation of your parenting skills.
That just pushes my buttons!
I bet Daddy only has a brief view of a microcosm of your relationship with your son; yet feels completely justified in undermining you. * empathetic sympathies!*

Was bloody annoying. They can't help themselves. I do wonder however if the grandparents of that little girl were like my parents, whether should would still be alive today. I think if I ever did beat my children and my parents became aware of it, I would probably have the skin flayed from my body by my parents. And rightly so if I were to ever do such a thing...

They should go to jail for doing nothing when they could have alerted someone and helped the child.

Why? So they can get out of prison and do the same thing to some other little kid somewhere else?

Why do we want to protect people like that? Why does any society on Earth want people like that in their midst, in prison or otherwise?

Shoot 'em and be done with it. And the next person who thinks about hurting a child, they might think twice ...knowing they might get shot!

Why do we, as a society, put up with that kind of people? Why? Do we just want to keep reading about other little kids who are hurt or killed?

Baron Max

I recall a discussion among the local members of the social welfare committee - the official state organization that oversees welfare families and child abuse/neglect situations in the area - over whether to allow a local welfare mother to keep her children.

The most damning evidence against her was that she lived in a small house - the three chidren had to share a bedroom - and had no television. The lack of a TV particularly disturbed the committee.

So it cuts both ways. If the natural or informal community is lost, official agencies make poor substitutes.

So really, what's happening on this thread is exactly what happens in real life, right? We complain about the abusiveness and death of the child, but we're not willing to do anything to stop it ...because of some misguided ideal of rights and freedoms?

And so we'll talk about this until it's forgotten ...and still do nothing ...until the next little kid is killed. Then we'll start to talking again, the complaining again, but ...just like before, we'll do nothing to stop the abusiveness and deaths.

When this thread has died a forgotten death, let's try to remember it when, in a week or so, someone else posts an very similar thread about a different little kid that was killed. ....and we'll do nothing but talk and condemn, with no action at all ...just like in our society.

The freedoms and civil rights of the parents trumps the abuse and death of a little kid.

Baron Max

What I would like to ask you is whether any of you think the mother, grandparents and aunt should be charged with neglect and not contacting the authorities when they knew this little girl was being abused.

Should they have interceded on her behalf and gotten her out of the situation she was in before it ended like it did?

Do you think the other family members who lived in that house should bear some responsibility for what happened to this child under their very noses?

Ideally, I think they should.

But -
(1) The girl would probably have been taken away from them and placed who knows where, perhaps even worse things would happen there to her.
(2) The whole family would be branded and face a lot of trouble - with the Law, with employment, with other people.

I suspect the family members have taken this into account, and assessed that it was still better if they try to fix things on their own.

Also other people who knew about this family's situation have probably taken the above points into account. They didn't want to get into trouble (such as facing revenge or charges for not reporting it sooner), nor did they want to be responsible to get anyone else into trouble.

I think people tend to be very risk-averse nowadays. There is no easy solution to this.

So really, what's happening on this thread is exactly what happens in real life, right? We complain about the abusiveness and death of the child, but we're not willing to do anything to stop it ...because of some misguided ideal of rights and freedoms?

And so we'll talk about this until it's forgotten ...and still do nothing ...until the next little kid is killed. Then we'll start to talking again, the complaining again, but ...just like before, we'll do nothing to stop the abusiveness and deaths.

When this thread has died a forgotten death, let's try to remember it when, in a week or so, someone else posts an very similar thread about a different little kid that was killed. ....and we'll do nothing but talk and condemn, with no action at all ...just like in our society.

I understand and share this concern of yours.

However, it's not like there is nothing we could do.

In some way, the discussions here affect us in -

- how we treat other people (IRL and online),
- what opinions we state when asked (IRL and online),
- for whom and for what we vote.

Although this might seem an effect so small it is not worth talking about it, it is not nothing either.

I understand and share this concern of yours.

However, it's not like there is nothing we could do.

In some way, the discussions here affect us in -

- how we treat other people (IRL and online),
- what opinions we state when asked (IRL and online),
- for whom and for what we vote.

Although this might seem an effect so small it is not worth talking about it, it is not nothing either.

Yeah, and while we're having these silly discussion, thousands of kids are abused all over the world ...and we still keep talking ...and doing nothing.

Have you ever heard the term, "Talk is cheap!"?

Baron Max

At least the chances that we are going to abuse someone are slimmer,
if we make ourselves aware of the damaging consequences of abuse,
or spend the time here that we could have instead spend in a pub drinking ourselves into oblivion and then doing who knows what.

At least the chances that we are going to abuse someone are slimmer, if we make ourselves aware of the damaging consequences of abuse, or spend the time here that we could have instead spend in a pub drinking ourselves into oblivion and then doing who knows what.

How many people that read this site would be detered by the talk ...if they were, in fact, abusers? Do you really think that talk is going to stop them?

And millions, perhaps billions, of people do spend time in pubs drinking, yet don't abuse anyone ....and no one talked to them about it, they just knonw that it's wrong.

Talk is cheap, and this site is proof of that.

What we, as a society, need to do is to act, not to talk. We need to rid society of people who would harm little kids and defenseless people ....just get rid of them. We could pack them up and ship them to the Arctic ...it rids the society of them, plus it gives the Polar Bears something to eat!

Baron Max

Bells:

The reason I was cranky was not so much for my son's behaviour, but because my father piped up and told me off in front of my son because I had dared sent him to his room. He then took my son outside and gave him chocolate. Granted I was not beating or abusing my son. I had merely sent him to his room to calm down. But I resented their interference. Had I spanked my son, I suspect I would probably have been slapped by my father.


You let your father override your authority in regards to your children? What the hell? I always got the impression that you didn't take shit from anyone, especially men.

S.A.M:

Its a very common sight in India for neighbors to get involved in any incident. Any kind of untoward or extraordinary happening just needs a loud voice or a shout and the neighbors will be banging on the door to know whats going on. I remember many instances from my childhood.


I couldn't tolerate such god damn meddling. Privacy is very high on my list, and the thought of neighbours rushing over to my house every time I break wind causes my stomach to turn.

S.A.M:


I couldn't tolerate such god damn meddling. Privacy is very high on my list, and the thought of neighbours rushing over to my house every time I break wind causes my stomach to turn.

Societies tending towards excessive individualism breed themselves out of existence.

You've raised a very interesting point if only by the title of the thread ..."It Takes a Village to Raise a Child".

So, ...does that mean that the entire village should be held responsible for the death of the little girl? And if so, to what extent? I'd guess that almost everyone in the village knew about the abuse, even if they only knew about the drugs and the neglect. And remember, no punishment of anyone is going to bring the little girl back to life.

I don't know ... Are we to be our brother's keeper?

Baron Max

PS- just remember, that post was me trying to be a nice guy. The real Baron Max would just take all of them out behind the barn and shot 'em ....and be done with them. People like that have no place in society ...get rid of them, don't punish them, just get rid of them.

NOW, I've seen it all. :D

In response to the OP.
Yes, They should be responsible, but their guilt should have been punishment enough, In case it isn't, make em do community service or something.

Bells:


You let your father override your authority in regards to your children? What the hell? I always got the impression that you didn't take shit from anyone, especially men.

I was angry but knew enough to realise it best to not say anything in front of my son. I did not want my son to know he was the subject of an argument between my father and myself. So I said nothing until he had toddled off out of earshot and politely advised my father to butt out next time. I reminded him how much it used to make him cranky when his parents used to step in and interfere with his parental role when I was a child. He is my father and I adore him to bits, I also respect him... There are only 2 people on this planet I do "take shit from" and they are my parents.

I think people tend to be very risk-averse nowadays. There is no easy solution to this.
There is also the selfish ideology of simply not wanting to become involved. And then of course you have the family dynamics of not wanting to bring in outsiders, thereby admitting to others and the community at large, the problems in your own family. Pride, and an excessive amount of it, is partly to blame.

I think Baron is right. We do need to act. But we do not. The fear of interfering in the private family lives of people and forcing them to tow the line would receive screams of outrage from the general public. Action is needed to educate the community at large that some things will never be acceptable and a failure to report abuse (such as in this case) should and will result in severe punishment. There is a system already already in place in regards to certain professional fields, such as medicine and education (where if a doctor or teacher becomes aware of abuse of a child, they are bound to report it), and I think it is high time the same rules were applied to family members and the general community. If you know someone is abusing a child in your family, it should be your duty to report it immediately to ensure that child is removed from danger. Failure to do so should result in a fairly hefty jail sentence.

If you know someone is abusing a child in your family, it should be your duty to report it immediately to ensure that child is removed from danger. Failure to do so should result in a fairly hefty jail sentence.

Ideally so, yes. But the problem is that it is impossible to prove or disprove that one knew what was going on. The issue of eyewitnesses is too moot, so the Law rather focuses on that which can be proved directly, ie. whether the parents abuse the child; the reports of eyewitnesses being only circumstantial evidence in all this.