The Wilno Uprising (also known as Operation Ostra Brama) was the armed struggle started by the Polish Home Army against the Nazi occupiers of Wilno (now Vilnius), during World War II. It started on July 7, 1944 as a part of a plan of all-national uprising codenamed Operation Tempest and lasted until July 14.

On June 12, 1944 gen. Tadeusz Bór-Komorowski, Commander-in-Chief of the Home Army issued an order to prepare a plan of liberating Wilno from German hands. Wilno and Nowogródek Home Army districts were to liberate the city before the Soviets could reach it. Commander of the Wilno Home Army District, General Aleksander Krzyżanowski "Wilk", decided to regroup all partisan units in the north-eastern Poland for the assault - both from inside the city and from the outside.

The starting date was finally set to July 7. Approximately 12,500 Home Army soldiers attacked the German garrison and managed to seize most of the city centre. Heavy street fights in the outskirts lasted until July 14. In the eastern suburbs the Home Army units cooperated with reconnaissance units of the Soviet 3rd Belorussian Front.

General Krzyżanowski wanted to group all partisan units into a re-created Polish 19th Infantry Division. However, the advancing Red Army entered the city on July 15 and the NKVD started to intern all Polish soldiers. On July 16 the HQ of the 3rd Belorussian Front invited Polish officers to a meeting and arrested them.

The internees, almost 5,000 officers, NCO's and soldiers, were sent to a provisional internment camp in Miedniki, a vilnian suburb. Some of them were given the possibility of joining the Soviet-controlled 1st Polish Army, while the majority were sent to prisons and GULAGs in the USSR.

After that the remnants of the local Home Army HQ ordered all units to retreat to Rudniki Forest. It is estimated that by July 18 almost 6,000 soldiers and 12,000 volunteers reached the area. They were soon encountered by Soviet Airforce and surrounded. Commanders decided to split their units and try to break through to Bialystok area. However, most of the Home Army forces were caught and interned.

An unknown number of soldiers under Lt. Col. Maciej Kalenkiewicz "Kotwicz" stayed in the forests around Wilno until early August. On August 21 a minor battle between them and the NKVD occurred. Very little is known of their fate.

Oh man, burnt! The Polish rose up against the Germans, which resulted in a Polish victory. Then the Russians stomp in, arrest most of the soldiers who liberated the area, and go "LOL, you're off to the Gulags, boy!"

Funny how stuff like this is never mentioned in history class. Just 'Yay, cool ally Russians helped liberate Germany and save the Jews."

heh what school did you go to?

evil soviets invaded and conquered eastern europe while americans saved the jews and punished evil nazi is more like it...

Oh, and the same thing happened in Lwow. Polish uprising in 1944, victory against the Germans. Soviets send the victors to the Gulags. BOOYAH!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_Uprising


Lwów Uprising

Polish soldiers fighting in the University of Technology area
Date: July 23 to July 27, 1944
Location: Lwów
Result: Polish Victory

On July 23 the Home Army forces in Lwów (now Lviv) started an armed uprising in cooperation with the advancing Soviet forces. The city was liberated in four days. After that the civil and military authorities were summoned for a meeting with Red Army commanders and captured by the NKVD. The remaining forces of col. Władysław Filipkowski were either forcibly conscripted to the Red Army, sent to Gulag or returned to the underground.


abs:

heh what school did you go to?

An Australian school. Australia didn't suffer as badly from the 'Red Scare', so I'm guessing that as a result, our views of Soviet actions during and after WW2 is a little less harsh. All we ever learnt about was how evil the Nazi Regime was. The evils of the Stalin Regime were never mentioned.

When the Warsaw uprising began in 1944, the Russians--who were just outside the city at the time--stopped their advance so that the uprising could be crushed by the Germans without their interference. When the Germans did finally crush the uprising, they literally levelled Warsaw--and then the Russians came in and continued their advance westward. While the Warsaw Uprising was going on, British and American 'planes were dropping supplies of weapons/ammo to the Polish Resistance--and Russians were trying to shoot them down to stop the deliveries. By the way, the Katyan Forest Massacre was down to the Russians as well. :mad:

Yay, cool ally Russians helped liberate Germany

I think they left out something about a 'Berlin Wall'.

Oh man, burnt! The Polish rose up against the Germans, which resulted in a Polish victory. Then the Russians stomp in, arrest most of the soldiers who liberated the area, and go "LOL, you're off to the Gulags, boy!"

Funny how stuff like this is never mentioned in history class. Just 'Yay, cool ally Russians helped liberate Germany and save the Jews."

I learned this in schoolbut then that was decades ago :eek: So 2 questions.

1. What backwater school did you attend?
2. Were you awake during class? :p

The soviets had plans for Poland after the war and the fewer possible troublemakers there were the better.

'Yay, cool ally Russians helped liberate Germany and save the Jews."

Ask the countries Russia occupied - Hungary, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania - what Russians are like.

Their answer will be like this - "You cannot kill too many Russians. Even if there are none left."

Russians are a failed culture, a failed population, and a failure in history.

android:

Ask the countries Russia occupied - Hungary, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania - what Russians are like.

From memory they also occupied Ukraine (where they starved 7 million Ukrainians to death), and Finland (where a force of 10,000 Finnish soldiers held off the Russians for months).

Mountainhare:

The Finns fought brilliantly. Then again, one cannot have too much praise for Finns (in my experience).

And now the death-rate in Russia exceeds the birth-rate--I don't hate the Russians, I just think they're a tragic culture in a lot of ways. The things is they fucked over very badly by the Mongols (Batu and Ogatai Khan and their army) in the 13th Century, and they've had a psychological hangup about it now for 700 years. Their agression towards neighbours is part of that problem, because they have spent that time trying to ensure that they never get conquered again, by putting as much space as they can between them and anyone else by conquering territory in all directions. The moral of the story is to try and not have a big neighbour with a chip on its shoulder. :(

lol. you guys sure are friendly. Its good to have only the history you were taught to believe in and leave the other unwanted part (regarding your posts). I mean...I guess I can tell you that there are many rusophobians out there, including the ones writing wikepedia, and the fact that the uprising one of you guys mentioned was to separate from the russians. Say... here's an example, you ask a country to help defeat a common enemy, and then once that enemy is defeated, you tell the country you asked help to **** off, basically forgetting the fact that if it wasnt for that country, you wouldnt even be alive.

Now of course thinking deeper the Gulags were a major problem anyways, what Stalin did was simply inacceptable, but... who was this Stalin who ordered the massacre of so many people? well the full name of this monster is Joseph Yissarionovich Jugashvili...now if you might notice the name is not russian at all...in fact the guy came from the country Georgia...and what a coincidence...Isnt Georgia the country, that is the mastermind behind todays Chechnya separatist movement? a violent country indeed. No? remember Beslan? Ok well...that sort of justifies the existence of Gulags...you couldnt budge Stalin, he had too much power. Ok... so... lets now discuss the polish folks... Now them angels are not as angel-like as they desire to be. Now I gotta say that my ancestors probably came from Poland, because my last name clearly resonates with the last names them folks in Poland have. So if I were to bias Poles, I would biasing myself.

Ok...what else do I have to say about all these posts...oh right...the one that mentioned the Russian culture as a failure is pathetic. I mean the culture is obviously awsome, lots of achievments in science (take Mendeleev for example), math (nowdays every math journal or even science journal has a slavic russian name in it as part of the people who contributed to that journal)...the ballet...space thing...arctic explorations (bunch of them)...lots of theaters...music (Chaikovsky)...books(Tolstoy, and ... the one who wrote about the Pride and Prejudice)...
Ok, I am trying to thing what else is there in culture?, that polish people seem to have as an unfailed culture...hmmm...I have no idea...I mean I love this Polish writer his name is Stanislaw Lem and thats about it, they also made some pritty good films...Which reminds me, the russian culture made a film War and Peace, as written by Tolstoy.
Ok...what other accusations were there? something about the finnish people? right? I fully support liberation of Finland from Russia, in fact they shouldnt have attacked Filand at all. The vikings came thru Finland to Russia and basically added up to the Russian culture it is known now...
Ok, so there was also someone mentioning the fact that all Baltic countries, especially Estonia, if asked now, would say that being under Soviet/Russian authority was one of the worst periods in the lifetime of the country. Well I do know that many of these Baltic countries, if not all, had wars with Russia constantly, trying to cut off pieces of Russia one way or another. So, today what the Baltic countries are saying is that Soviet armies have oppressed them, used them, by beatung the Germans first and then staying in their countries. Yeah...To that I can say, that Russian armies should have never helped or invaded these countries ever, but then if they didnt the Baltic countries would use the situation with Germany and form an alliance to defeat a common foe, Russia. So, what Russians should have done was not invade any of the Baltic countries and let them welcome their new German friends. Which as I presume would have caused deaths to all of them, thus they wouldnt be complaining today, because they wouldnt even exist. Yeah, thats what the Russian armies should have done. But, darn Stalin, he had to act otherwise, didnt think of the future complaints from these countries.
Well that kind summons my reaction to the many biases/complains/shitting of one of my countries I am a citizen of and thus am loyal to defend. Ill be taking your "shots-you-damn-russian" now, ask away. :D

i don't know man
the polish army was well trained, had excellent discipline, and good moral
where they failed was equipment they did not have modern gear
the tanks of the germans lasted longer than the horses of the polish army

Funny how stuff like this is never mentioned in history class. Just 'Yay, cool ally Russians helped liberate Germany and save the Jews."

Wow, man, you've figured it out :) One point, why brave, sivilized, etc. poles stick their heads into German arses in 1942. for example? Why would brave Poles needed to wait for the Soviet barbarians to approach Polish borders to pull heads out and start all those pointless, flippery "apprisings"? Lemme give you an anology, a jackal hiding in bushes until lion cripples a zebra, just to make a final kill and claim the victory. It's not a good analogy though, because Polish did not really make a final kill of the Germans (they killed 10-20+ thousands of German civilians during post WWII ethnic cleansing though). Modified analogy: jackal watching lion killing zebra, bites struggling zebra's leg ..... Those Polish apprisings were utterly pointless from military point of views, it was all about politics.

Oh, and the same thing happened in Lwow. Polish uprising in 1944, victory against the Germans. Soviets send the victors to the Gulags. BOOYAH!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_Uprising



Well, I know you couldn't care less to know, but Soviet armies outflanked Lwov (or Lviv), there were no need to street fight for Lwow. Germans were fleeing to escape encirclement. Lwow was largerly preserved from WWII style total urban destruction. Whatever polish were doing in Lwow was utterly useless from a military standpoint. They were showing off to make a political claim later on, that's about it. Polish winning WWII battles and Soviets taking credit for victories:) That's so absurd, it's not even funny. But as long as this way of looking on things makes you happy......

i don't know man
the polish army was well trained, had excellent discipline, and good moral
where they failed was equipment they did not have modern gear
the tanks of the germans lasted longer than the horses of the polish army

How bout being outnumbered by several times?

Russians are a failed culture, a failed population, and a failure in history.

PROOF that Russia is a homosexual country! ;)

How bout being outnumbered by several times?

Poles are a failed culture indeed, didnt even have an army worthy. :p

PROOF that Russia is a homosexual country! ;)

You are proving something based on a statement that is false in nature. Otherwise you better back it up by some real facts, were you clearly state how Poland isnt a failure culture in essence whereas Russia is a failure culture. You also should back up your claim of Russian culture being homosexual with real stats of the ratio of homosexuals/heterosexuals in Poland and homosexuals/heterosexuals in Russia. Otherwise your statement is farse.

Poles are a failed culture indeed, didnt even have an army worthy. :p

Indeed they are, as are every other country and culture, except one. Only Americans haven't failed. The rest of the world consists of homos, fags, queers, and bizecksual dykessss. :mad:

You are proving something based on a statement that is false in nature. Otherwise you better back it up by some real facts, were you clearly state how Poland isnt a failure culture in essence whereas Russia is a failure culture. You also should back up your claim of Russian culture being homosexual with real stats of the ratio of homosexuals/heterosexuals in Poland and homosexuals/heterosexuals in Russia. Otherwise your statement is farse.

http://www.gay.ru/english/

Here you go, Mr. Smarty-pants. Just check out the fine young lad on that first page! Isn't that proof?

And if you need more proof, just ask Vadim here:

http://www.geocities.com/russiaboys/00841.html

He's single AND submissive. Must be a member of the Polish army! ;)

Indeed they are, as are every other country and culture, except one. Only Americans haven't failed. The rest of the world consists of homos, fags, queers, and bizecksual dykessss. :mad:

And were do these Americans come from? from Europe....homos, fags, queers, and.... thus these Americans are also these homos, fags, and queers, and bisexual dykes. Now personally I do not believe any culture is a failure, and the only reason I claimed of Poland to be a country of failure was to show you how silly it is to claim of a country to be a failure. None iis a failure, because these countries still exist and have power. Do you want an example of a country as a failure? Iraq, why? because the country couldn't defend itself, where have all the arab brotherhood gone?



http://www.gay.ru/english/

Here you go, Mr. Smarty-pants. Just check out the fine young lad on that first page! Isn't that proof?

And if you need more proof, just ask Vadim here:

http://www.geocities.com/russiaboys/00841.html

He's single AND submissive. Must be a member of the Polish army! ;)

Well, I guess you cant read or something, didnt I say give a ratio that of numbers of homosexuals/heterosexuals in both Poland and Russia, and now you give me links to gay Russian sites. So since you been so attentative let me give you some gay poles sites for you "kindness", http://www.gays.pl/
or maybe you want a gay pole ref. site? well here it is watch till you die all you want: http://cracow.gayguide.net/Gay_Guide/Gay_Media/
http://postfarm.net/uploads/gtfo_copy3.jpg

Russian superstar!

http://members.tripod.com/RussianUSA/shows/img/dolina_small.jpg

Лариса Долина! Lol!

All I see is hosted by tripod...please find a pic that allows external linking.

I guess you'll just have to click on the link instead. Sorry.

I could have posted more Russian gay links for you, but they were awfully.... you know. Stuff.

ok the link doesnt work...
...And I could have posted more Polish gay links for you, but I hate all gay stuff.
ALso, I never liked Larisa Dolina, cause I think she is ugly, old, and cant sing
Groups that I like are: Ruki Verh, Russkiy Razmer, Mnogotochie, NTL, Delphin (All russian of course, all rap)
Listen, I never said I hate Polish culture or Poland, I just did not agree to the guy who made this thread comments of Russia as failure.

...And I could have posted more Polish gay links for you, but I hate all gay stuff.

Cool! I'm sure someone somewhere wants to hand you your large golden phallus trophy. Question is, will the meeting take place?


ALso, I never liked Larisa Dolina, cause I think she is ugly, old, and cant sing

And I think you are a gay queer. And just for that, I love Larisa all the more! :D

Groups that I like are: Ruki Verh, Russkiy Razmer, Mnogotochie, NTL, Delphin (All russian of course, all rap)

All crap, of course. Bortnyansky is excellent, though.

Listen, I never said I hate Polish culture or Poland, I just did not agree to the guy who made this thread comments of Russia as failure.

And my gay comments were but a joke, dudette! :rolleyes:
Don't start plucking the feathers just yet, dear heart! I was only pulling your leg (the third one). ;)

Enough of this gay banter!
Let's get back to the real topic.

So much fucking ignorance in this thread, and so much bullshit racism coming from both sides.
After a futile debate with a homophobe on another forum, I've made a policy of not dignifying retarded claims with a decent response, since it's merely a waste of my time. I'm not going to address their bullshit directly, although I might add my thoughts to the issues that they are babbling about.

However, I feel some clarification is needed. I merely created this thread to point out the hardships and treachery suffered by the Poles during WWII. The Jews were not the only ones to suffer a considerable amount. German, Polish, French and Russian civilians all suffered terribly. However, German and Russian casualties are waved off. After all, who gives a shit about what happened to the evil Nazis/Commies (*sarcasm*). Nobody likes or gives a shit about the snobby, independent French, and who the fuck were the Poles? People know diddly squat about Polish history, despite it being long and proud. I guess there are so many countries in Europe, you can only focus on the ones which have stirred shit up in the past 100 years.

I also felt that the thread might help in explaining why the Poles still have a rather hostile attitude towards the Russians. Sure, everyone can understand why the Polish don't really like the Germans, but why the Russians? Didn't the Russians save Polish ass during WWII? That's a common misconception amongst Australians and Americans, although I don't exactly know why.

Perhaps the suspicious attitude of many countries occupied and suppressed by the Soviets isn't justified, but you can't blame a particular race or nationality for still disliking another country/race after recent grievances. Many Jews don't exactly like the Germans as a people, despite the apologies and compensation which flow out of Germany to the Jews. How many apologies, and how much compensation, has anyone who was attacked/conquered by the Russians, received? Once again, I don't really give a shit either way. Personally, I like the Germans, they are a very polite people in general. They have a proud, ancient history, and they have always had a tendancy to kick ass. The only disappointment is how much they bend over backwards to kiss ass today. The Germans of today are the Allies of WWII... desperate to appease.

Anyway, I just thought that people might want clarification on why there anti-Russian sentiment amongst the Polish people. I also didn't know about the particular uprisings, and I hate to say it, but I found treachery practiced by the Russians grimly amusing. The Gulags were a reward to the Poles for preventing Russian deaths.
The Polish people could have just sat back and be liberated by the Russians. It would have been a hell of a lot easier. So why didn't they? Well, I'm sure that part of the reason was due to politics, and nationalism. Despite being under occupation for 100+ years, they still believed that they were Poles, and that Poland would never cease to exist as long as they lived. Poland wanted to fight for its independence because they felt independent, and wanted to establish a government which wasn't a vassal to the Soviets or the Nazis. So they waited for their occupiers to loosen their grip, and then they stuck out.
That's the logical thing to do when one is occupied by a superior military force. Poland had learnt from the past that attempting to rise up against occupiers when the time wasn't right led to genocide and oblivion. Poland had numerous uprisings against its three annexors in an attempt to shake them off, all meeting with some success at first, but all eventually being crushed by the superpowers of the time. Poland also attempting uprisings against the Nazis, and were crushed, like the uprisings elsewhere against the Soviets and the Nazis. So they waited, and they struck when their occupier was weak. Good decision. The Arabs done it to the Ottoman's, the Algerians done it to the French, and the South Africans done it to their white oppressor. There is nothing shameful about fighting against your occupier when he is weak. Its just damn sensible.

I'm sure that another part of the reason was revenge. Poland had been occupation by the Nazis for years, and it wasn't a kind occupation. Millions of Poles where in the Concentration Camps, including my grandfather. Hell, everyone wanted a piece of Nazi ass, including the Americans and the Russians. So why wouldn't a country under the Nazi occupation want to join in?

Whether the Poles were ridiculously weak at the time, and what their motivations were, isn't the point. The point is that the Russians should have been grateful for Polish assistance. The Polish made the conscious choice to assist the Russians in driving out the Nazis. As a result, the Russians didn't have to sacrifice their lives in order to root out entrenched Nazi garrisons. The Poles did it for them, thus preventing more Russians deaths.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that the Russian army was a machine of destruction. It was getting its ass whooped all over the place prior to the Lend-Lease act and American intervention, which is why it needed a pact with Hitler in order to grab part of Poland, the Baltic States, and Finland. We can't know exactly how many casualties the Russians would have suffered if they had attempted to take on two cities which had heavy Nazi garrisons, but I doubt they would have came away unscathed.

Someone mentioned that the Nazis were fleeing to escape encirclement. They failed to produce any evidence whatsoever to support their claim (why the fuck was their a garrison in the first place, if they were attempting to flee), but let's assume that the Nazis in the particular towns were fleeing. Where would they flee too? The most logical course to take would be to flee back to Berlin, or a position which is more defensible. So once again, if the Polish hadn't have dealt with those Nazi soldiers, the Russians could have been in for one hell of a fight later on down the road, which would have resulted in casualties. We just don't know how badly the Soviets would have been smacked around without aid, and to claim that the neutralization of Nazi garrisons by the Polish didn't aid the Russians in the slightest is delusional.

And the second, perhaps more important point regarding those particular uprisings, is that the Russians promised their aid and support, and then turned around to stab the Poles in the back. For preventing the death of potential Russian soldiers, the Soviets rewarded the Poles by with-holding aid during the Warsaw Uprising, and then imprisoning the Polish victors of later successful uprisings.

And as to anyone who claims that Russia is a failed country and a failed country, that's a matter of opinion. I'd suggest that you STFU until you can demonstrate why your BS conjecture is fact. While Russia has been responsible for acts of imperialism and suffering, how many acts of imperialism, brutality and suffering has America been responsible for? Panama, Cuba, Mexico. Millions dead while interfering in a civil war in Korea. Millions dead in South East Asia during the debacle in the 1970's in order to promote capitialism. Two invasions of Iraq, and the invasion of Afghanistan. Supporting corrupt and murderous regimes. Abducting and torturing suspected Communists.

And what about the French and the British? Are you going to deny that they were imperialistic? Holy shit, at the time Britain was bitching about Nazi imperialism, their Empire encompassed about 1/4 of the land mass on Earth. How many colonies did France have? How many Africans and Asians were oppressed by non-Russians? How many blacks were tortured in the Congo when it was a colony of the Belgians?

I could go on and on, but I don't think it's necessary to drive my point home with a sledgehammer, because anyone with even half a brain will get the point. Before criticizing the culture and history of another country, perhaps it would be a good idea to turn that critical eye on your own. Because when you point an accusing finger at someone, 3 fingers are pointing back at you.

Someone pointed out that the Poles don't exactly have an angelic history (although I have yet to see a Pole ever claim that they do). This is true. During the height of its power, Poland mistreated the Cossacks, and engaged in acts of imperialism against Russia in the Time of Troubles (when Russia was going through a crisis due to issues of succession and banditry). Such things were natural back in those days, but to say that any country has a clean history is the height of naivety. Every country needed to kill or conquer something to establish its borders.

.....I merely created this thread to point out the hardships and treachery suffered by the Poles during WWII....The Jews were not the only ones to suffer a considerable amount....German, Polish, French and Russian civilians all suffered terribly...... However, German and Russian casualties are waved off. After all, who gives a shit about what happened to the evil Nazis/Commies (*sarcasm*)....... who the fuck were the Poles?

A: After all, who gives a shit what happened to the evil Nazis and lazy Poles(*sarcasm*)....who the fuck were the Poles? Oh and I noticed that you had the russian casualties listed as the last...ever seen the numbers of the russian casualties in WWII? the greatest of them all, unlike the poles, they actually fought. The Jews died, yes they suffered, but they did almost nothing to end the war. While the poles were crushed with almost no resistance.
_________

.....Didn't the Russians save Polish ass during WWII?....That's a common misconception amongst Australians and Americans, although I don't exactly know why.

A: Ever thought that what you have been taught is bias? you don't exactly know why Americans and Australians believe in what you called a misconception, well people can distinguish what is truth and false in this world.

_______________

....Once again, I don't really give a shit either way. Personally, I like the Germans, they are a very polite people in general. They have a proud, ancient history, and they have always had a tendancy to kick ass.....

A: Personally since you like the Germans, then personally you should have allowed the Germans to fuck your nation in WWII. And the fact that you dont give a shit is apparent, you dont have to clarify that.

_____________________

The Gulags were a reward to the Poles for preventing Russian deaths.

A: Really, they prevented Russian deaths? They gave a shit on preventing any deaths of russians, just like you do. By the way, it seems to me that you dont know about the maaaaaaaaaaaany Gulag-like facilities in Poland, ever heard of the Warsaw CIA jail? no? check it out on the news.

__________________

The Polish people could have just sat back and be liberated by the Russians.

A: And thats exactly what they did, or at least tried to do

__________________

Poland had learnt from the past that attempting to rise up against occupiers when the time wasn't right led to genocide and oblivion.

A: Thats right, after Russians drove off the Nazis, the Poles knowing that the Russian forces have decreased in numbers decided to use the moment. Oh...the russian helped us...lets use the moment while they are weak and kill them... But luckily, they were sent were they belong.

_________________

There is nothing shameful about fighting against your occupier when he is weak.

A: nothing shameful, right....it wouldnt be shameful if your "opponent" hadn't saved your ass from the Germans

_________________

Whether the Poles were ridiculously weak at the time, and what their motivations were, isn't the point.

A: Oh yes it is the point, the poles were weak, and if it werent for the russians they wouldnt even exist today. I am sorry to admit...but if the Russian armies didnt do something in Poland, the polish would have made a pact with Germans or would have been made by Germans to fight the Russians, and the poles dont give a shit of the russians, so they would have done so.

_________________

The point is that the Russians should have been grateful for Polish assistance.

A: You just said the Poles were weak, what fucking assistance are u talking about? The Poles' armies arent worth a penny, couldn't beat anyone.

_________________

So once again, if the Polish hadn't have dealt with those Nazi soldiers, the Russians could have been in for one hell of a fight later on down the road, which would have resulted in casualties.

A: lol...the Poles as u said were weak, plus they gave a shit of russians anyways, as a result the battles the poles fought were shit, I am sure less russians would have died then if it was without the poles. The fact that you hate Russian culture is apparent, you are trying to defend your grandpa and the history of Poland along the way.

_________________

We just don't know how badly the Soviets would have been smacked around without aid, and to claim that the neutralization of Nazi garrisons by the Polish didn't aid the Russians in the slightest is delusional.

A: You are repeating yourself oncemore, the Polish aid was shit, if you hate russian culture you want do much to help it, you hate it now, they hated it then, they gave a shit.

_________________

And the second, perhaps more important point regarding those particular uprisings, is that the Russians promised their aid and support, and then turned around to stab the Poles in the back.

A: Oh...wait...werent it you who said that that there is nothign shamefull of the poles using the situation and drive off the russians? So lets see, the Poles decide to strike the russians since the russians helped them against the Nazi, and now the Poles seeing that Russian armies are not as strong decided to shit those armies. Now what would you do if you were the country to be shitted? Ill shit them right back with the same shit.

__________________

And as to anyone who claims that Russia is a failed country and a failed country, that's a matter of opinion.

A: And as to anyone who claims that Poland is not a failed country and not a failed culture, that's a matter of opinion.

__________________

I'd suggest that you STFU until you can demonstrate why your BS conjecture is fact.

A: I'd also suggest that you STFU until you can demonstrate why your bias/shit conjecture is fact

__________________

Before criticizing the culture and history of another country, perhaps it would be a good idea to turn that critical eye on your own.

A: Notice that I didnt start criticizing Poland, you started criticizing Russia in most if not all of the Poland problems. SO why dont you follow your own advice, and turn the critical eye on yourself.

________________________

Every country needed to kill or conquer something to establish its borders.

A: Well now... lets discuss Poland...

LOL, you've got to be kidding, dragon. You expect me to dignify that mess with a response? I've never seen anyone spin so much bullshit in my life. Remember, having me address your claims is a privilege, not a right. Before expecting civil discourse, try learning a little unbiased history, and actually understanding the context of my claims. I might have been tempted to educate you, but I'm not sure if it is legal to learn about unbiased history in Russia.

Although this bit of your little 'rebuttal' is interesting:

mountain_hare: I'd suggest that you (individuals claiming that Russia is a failed country/history/people) STFU until you can demonstrate why your BS conjecture is fact.

A: I'd also suggest that you STFU until you can demonstrate why your bias/shit conjecture is fact

Are you aware that the people I was telling to shut up were the individuals claiming that Russia was a failed country/people/history?


mountain hare perceptively pointed out:
And as to anyone who claims that Russia is a failed country and a failed country, that's a matter of opinion. I'd suggest that you STFU until you can demonstrate why your BS conjecture is fact. While Russia has been responsible for acts of imperialism and suffering, how many acts of imperialism, brutality and suffering has America been responsible for? Panama, Cuba, Mexico. Millions dead while interfering in a civil war in Korea. Millions dead in South East Asia during the debacle in the 1970's in order to promote capitialism. Two invasions of Iraq, and the invasion of Afghanistan. Supporting corrupt and murderous regimes. Abducting and torturing suspected Communists.

Are you, a Russian citizen, DISPUTING the above?! Are you disputing that Russia isn't the only country to have a long history of imperialism, brutality, and causing suffering?

I think you need to read my entire post over again. I know it's long, but you should be able to manage.