Hia all, this is my first post on this board. I do realize that it is going to be very short and won't really have much to it, but I thought I would bring it up and hope to have some discussion about it. I would appreciate some logical and or open minded answers/people as a reply. I don't want Rev. Fucknut to come in and start quoting the Bible or things like that. I would like you to sit back... open your mind free from previous beliefs...that means all of you not just Christians.... and listen....


I was raised in a Lutheran Church and to be a Lutheran...... I defiantly from a small age saw that these stories (to me at least) were very questionable, many questions I had about things could not be answered other than a "because that's the way it is" answer. Which is basically saying" because I said so", which is even easier to understand from a childs perspective. The first point I want to make is, how can you be sure you are so right? What makes your religion 100% full proof? What makes you think that humans now, especially way back when, could comprehend the making or creation of a universe when they didn't even have an idea something other than earth existed. How can a human comprehend something this vast.... I don't think they can. I have started reading a book by the name of Flatland.... much like in flatland we are subjected to what we have known since we can remember.... The only things we know to really be true 100% is in our memory.... the reason it can be 100% accurate I believe is because everything is a matter of perspective, the whole "if you think 5+2 =8 then to you it's true and no one can change it" thing. I feel others can only say that to them and others they know 5+2=7. IMO then again this also is more based upon how flawed language is, but anyhoo. I feel that every religion is exactly the same, or at least it has the same purpose, obviously to explain the nature of reality... however, in flatland they only know 2 dimensions..... and a sphere passes through flatland, or something to that extent, (if not my example still conveys what im trying to say). A square or some other shape sees the sphere and has the 3rd dimension explained to him. Before this sphere came, there was no possible way the 2D shape could of thought let alone comprehend what the 3-rd dimension was. It was something completely unthinkable. I feel religion is kinda trying to explain what the sphere did, only religion and philosophy is a 2d shape that never had seen or heard the sphere. I am sorry, about the rambling BTW this was all written spur of the moment aka I didn't have a planed form on how to write what I am, I just sat down and started to type (Even though its probly obvious). Basically what I am trying to say is all religions are correct.... but in that.... all religions are equally wrong. Sure the 2d square might have by change made up something that was just like the spheres land and explanation, but the likelihood of the square guessing that is very very very slim. All we can say is "This is my set of beliefs, it is my own, don't try to change them, however I respect your different beliefs, because the chance of mine being right, as opposed to yours is 100% equal." So in this, a large amount of "major religions" are polytheistic. They all have different stories and different rules and customs, but they all seek and praise the same thing. For instance, lets say that Christians worship Zuel, and Boboists worship Hamadriv , and pognists worship familet. FOR EXAMPLES SAKE ONLY lets say the "real god or heavenly body, gaia, ect," are not at all like these religions think it is, these are the only religions available. Now what I am saying is, even though all these religions worship different gods in different ways, they are still when it comes down to it worshiping the force that is responsible for everything, all of them are. So in that fact, they are technically all worshiping the "true force" in their own unique way. Making them all correct, but different, but still making all of them wrong. Now for another example thingy, let say that the Boboists where right and the god/force Hamadriv is the actually force of all creation, evolution, everything whatever ya want,ect. Everyone is still right though, because everyone is still worshiping the force of all, just in different ways. The only thing it does is make the Bobists is not wrong. Now lets mix this with a little bit of our reality, if the powerful force is something that we would call living and conscious to the point of human feelings, it could be mad or happy at the religions worshiping it in different ways. But if a religion like christianity comes along and claims that it is all forgiving, but then claims that it still will punish those who worship it in a different way that it really is, then they contradict themselves. For if it had human emotion somehow, and was as forgiving and perfect as they say it is, then it would surely not punish others for worshiping it in their own different and unique ways. The reason I come to this conclusion is that I (according to Christian belief) am less perfect and all forgiving ect, but I would tell you right now that if I was a God in their sense of the matter, I would be happy to see my creations become so creative and diverse and still believe in me in their own way, be it religion philosophy, science, evolution, music, literature, ect. And since this heavenly god in christian belief is much better than I it would surely have to be that much more forgiving and that much more accepting than even what I stated above. Meaning that if the christians are correct in the way of their god, then they are incorrect in the way they go about worshiping him and bring on rules. And if they are correct in they rules they have about their worship, then they are incorrect about the perfection and greatness of their god. For the statement of great forgiveness contradicts the message that the god would allow his creations to go to hell, their god would not allow his creations to go to hell if he forgave them so and was so open-minded. So if you think that you are correct in the fact that souls go to hell, then you as a christian would also have to accept the fact that your god is petty, cruel and mean spirited, something to be feared rather than something to be loved. Another question I would like to ask you christians out there.... why would your god give you free thought if it would only punish you for using it, the only reason is if it was a cruel joke. And if we don't have free thought and god controls our thinking, why is he having me think all that I am typing now that goes against himself. And if Satan is responsible for my lack in faith and God or Jesus cares so much about their children (which I am to understand, their love is equal for everyone, making me as important to them as you are) why don't they just manifest themselves over New York or something in full daylight non tabloid or propaganda photos and say, hey guys.... ummmm its true we do exist, just thought we would let you know so you can start worshiping properly and not be tricked. Or why wouldn't god who is supposed ot have power over everything just destroy satan and let people think clearly. It basically boils down to either you have a really sick twisted god, who gets off on watching his creations wander around aimlessly without his help and then punishes them for it even though he could have stopped them at any time, or your way of worship is flawed and wrong and your trying to save others and pushin your "drug" on others is the only real thing that is making god mad, that you are responsible for hatred against you. Hell if Marilyn Manson's christian school he went to as a child didn't punish him for believing in the good nature of god, he would probly be a "normal" person. They punished him for bringing in a photo of what looks ot be an angel that his grandma took. He believed until the very people meant to teach it became corrupt with greed power and bastardized the religion. So next time you find someone who doesn't believe in god, just ask yourself if standing on a street corner like a whore in chicago selling your religion to those who don't want it, and yelling and singing will actually get this person to "believe", or will it just make them think your more crazy and dismiss you. Try being civil and try not to force anything. Hell I know I would probly believe in a "god" if my mother didn't force me to go to sunday school as a small child every weekend. A child needs to understand his environment first, before he even should make an attempt to understand how it came about. You loose one everyday you do this..... you socialize them to associate bad with your churches and you socialize them to associate anger, and stress, and negativity with it, your just killing yourselves one child at a time. I hope you enjoy what your doing to yourselves, its really too bad because there are actually some nice lessons in your bible they could learn if only it wasn't shoved down their throats. Also tell me.... without saying the lord would have shown me the way.... if you were to grow in in say... India.... would you still be christian??? Any logical person would say that you would have a completely other set of "absolute" beliefs........


Holy shit I really got waaaaay from my topic...... well I suppose I will try to actually post it again.... I promise next time I will be more organized... oh yea and if you were wondering anyone, I have developed my own philosophy/belief about the nature of reality.... I will try to explain that sometime too, maybe it already exists and I don't know about it. Anyhoo I guess I will be getting some posts from Toney1 and the others... I hope even though my rambling was rather skitzo in the fact that it didn't have much of a pattern, I can get some backup/support from you others who I would like to call friends, I have read a lot on the evolution boards... I don't necessarily think that evolution if proven fact, but I believe if we give it time and proper research we will show them all :). But lets not get into that one again lol. Oh yea and if anyone maybe has got something or some point out of what I typed please post and start to discuss it, my main problem is that I have so much to talk about I tried to cover it all and ran into other things I thought of. So if we can break this down at all I might be able to clarify what I mean or finish a story/example I might have forgot to after running into something else to explain lol. Oh yea I also was thinking I want to clarify something, that fact that we place human characteristics on gods and things is because we can't comprehend the mindset of something else, even other animals, let alone a heavenly being, we can only describe them in terms that have been presented to us, hence making every explanation we have, more than likely wrong. Lol enough from me for now... /peace

PPPSSS Sorry it got turned into Christian bashing in the end, that was not my intention believe it or not, I do realize it is childish and im sorry lol.

Welcome to Sciforums, caonight. I am afraid that I am not the one who will tear your post apart for I enjoyed the thought expressed in it and it hits close to home. Perhaps closer than I want to admit. You will find some inflexible and they will do what I do not. I do not post much here but have starting reading the forum, as it seems quite active when others are not. I wait with anticipation to see the inflow of posts to this one.

Well I suppose my mind just must not be good enough for this forum, I am enjoying reading many of the posts you all have made and maybe will try to add to those in effort be be more well known first before I bring on some of my theories. Many of the things I have said might also have already been debated before, for this im sorry lol, but I hope to see and get to know more of you better. I see many funny things I wish to comment about however in some of the posts I read. It seems that many people on both sides of arguments are bound and determined to stay on their side and debate to defend, I am here for a different purpose however, my purpose is to go into every post with an open mind being objective to both sides to form a conclusion. Many people here seem to be posting for the sake of argument, and nothing seems to come of them other than just that, an argument that changes no ones views and mind. I would like to ask a question however, was it ever said in the Bible that the snake had lied to Adam and Eve? Also if God was omniscient (I think that's how its spelled, maybe not hehe) why was he confused and wandering around the garden looking for Adam and Eve after they ate of the tree of knowledge? Wouldn't he know just where they were and what happened. I feel that maybe the "they have become like us" might be referring to some other gods or beings of equal transcendence as the god told of in the bible. The one wandering and punishing them was a different less powerful god, and he not being the god of forgiveness punished adam and eve. This is the reason why god seems to second guess himself at this point, or so it was said by others on this forum. These different forces have different views and opinions. These other god could be considered angels or whatever you want. The god who has told the rest of the story in the Bible past the creation might have been this different power, that is why it would destroy and reduce man kind to nothing, if another shift in power happened after this and a kind and wise god then took over, humans would explain this with saying that he repented of his ways and decided never to do such a thing again, in our current state it seems that if the above is true, I can only come to one conclusion. The gods put all their effort in trying to get humans to realize their own worth, They want humans to be able to feel whole without the need of slaving themselves to the gods. They have created you, tried to get as many as they could to become independent, much like that of a mother bird pushing the baby out of the nest, if it has learned anything from the mother bird it will fly and survive, if not it crashes to the ground in failure and death. I think that if there is any truth to the bible that this is a very good theory that could come up. I have not really read the entire bible HOWEVER SO I might be very flawed, but it makes sense to me. I refuse to believe that a book has kept the same translations and meanings after as many versions it has gone through. How can we trust ancient kings who could have easily bent the words for their own purposes. I read on a post that god doesn't give up on you, that it is you who choose to be with god and in heaven or not to and choose hell. I believe that since he hasn't seemed to make any effort in recent history to show the mass public he exists, that it is only his own fault. For if everyone believed everything in blind faith then we would never know the world is not flat, and we would not know that waves carry sound and vision to us. I have also never read anything about god creating life on another planet besides earth. There has been life in the form of plant fossils or small few celled organisms on other planets if im not mistaken. The reason you can't find that in the Bible is that humans had no knowledge of such things like other planets existing, and if they did, they did not have the in depth knowledge we have now. Therefore it is excluded in the Bible, pushing another point to the team who says it is a man made story. I personally don't believe in most of the happenings of the Bible, but I do think in certain instances there is a good lesson to be learned. Like fables, if you see how wrong it is to kill countless people for stupid reasons, you will then have that knowledge and I hope not do such things lol. I hope that I might get some replies about what ya'll think on this post and maybe the one I had before this.

/peace

"The reason you can't find that in the Bible is that humans had no knowledge of such things like other planets existing, and if they did, they did not have the in depth knowledge we have now. "

"And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?"

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious."

Maybe it just wasn't relevent to talk about them except when speaking with the Greeks who's religion was based on them.

When you have no idea what the purpose of the Bible is, it's no surprise it confuses you to see that some things aren't talked about.

Ben

My point was that other life was not mentioned at all as existing on these other planets... I personally think life on other planets would be something rather major to discuss or reveal in such a book, considering it is supposed to enlighten ect.

What does life on another planet have to do with our salvation and the nature of God?

The Bible leaves out a bunch of scientific information because it's not a science book. It's a religious text which focuses on human nature and our need for God using science only where relavent.

Maybe there is no life on other plantets and that's why it doesn't mention it.

And also, it'd be pretty difficult to relate to the stories in the Bible if they were talking about people you'd never meet the likes of.

There was a reason for God comming down as a human and not a wombat or Zorkian. It was so we could relate to him on some level.

Ben

well the kind of life I am speaking of is the plat life and the various microbes and things found and already proven, not to mention the possiblility of other races. It would seem that the story of creation is awefully uncomplete without the mentioning of these things, however you do make a good point and I will be sure to give it some thought. :)

If there is no other life in the universe why are there so many stars and planets? Even our solar system has 9 planets, we only need 1 don't we? Not to mention the trillions of others out there.

There must be life in other places, the evidence for it keeps adding up. For example, last year scientists found sugar (more specifically, glycolaldehyde) in a large cloud of gas about 26,000 light years distant (Sagittarius B2 (North)). Although this is a simple form of sugar, it can combine to form Ribose, which is one of the ingrediants for DNA, and glucose which is found in fruits. Astronomers have also found a few planets orbiting a nearby star. Although these are gas giants (very small ones at that) it was to be expected since solid planets would be much harder to detect.

*Originally posted by caonight
I would like you to sit back... open your mind free from previous beliefs...that means all of you not just Christians.... and listen....*

Oh oh.
Pretty much every false religion starts out like that.
Well, may as well present yours.

*What makes you think that humans now, especially way back when, could comprehend the making or creation of a universe when they didn't even have an idea something other than earth existed.*

I realize that this may be a stretch, but some people may have looked up at night.

*I believe is because everything is a matter of perspective, the whole "if you think 5+2 =8 then to you it's true and no one can change it" thing. I feel others can only say that to them and others they know 5+2=7. IMO then again this also is more based upon how flawed language is...*

Yeah, language is pretty flawed when you could have a person believing that 5+2=7.

*Even though its probly obvious*

Yeah, it is.
This flatland thing is nothing new.

*All we can say is "This is my set of beliefs, it is my own, don't try to change them, however I respect your different beliefs, because the chance of mine being right, as opposed to yours is 100% equal."*

Well, we could just say, "You're wrong."
It takes up less space.

*But if a religion like christianity comes along and claims that it is all forgiving, but then claims that it still will punish those who worship it in a different way that it really is, then they contradict themselves.*

Luckliy, the real Christianity doesn't say that.
It merely says that almost everyone can be forgiven, not that everyone will be.

*The reason I come to this conclusion is that I (according to Christian belief) am less perfect and all forgiving ect, but I would tell you right now that if I was a God in their sense of the matter, I would be happy to see my creations become so creative and diverse and still believe in me in their own way, be it religion philosophy, science, evolution, music, literature, ect.*

How fortunate for you, that you are God in your own religion.

*And since this heavenly god in christian belief is much better than I it would surely have to be that much more forgiving and that much more accepting than even what I stated above.*

On the other hand, such a God may have thought things through a little better.

*So if you think that you are correct in the fact that souls go to hell, then you as a christian would also have to accept the fact that your god is petty, cruel and mean spirited, something to be feared rather than something to be loved.*

So, if cups are porcelain then you would have to accept that airplanes are made of lead?

*Another question I would like to ask you christians out there.... why would your god give you free thought...*

It's to see the flaws in your reasoning.

*And if Satan is responsible for my lack in faith and God or Jesus cares so much about their children (which I am to understand, their love is equal for everyone, making me as important to them as you are) why don't they just manifest themselves over New York or something in full daylight non tabloid or propaganda photos and say, hey guys.... ummmm its true we do exist, just thought we would let you know so you can start worshiping properly and not be tricked.*

Maybe it's because Satan isn't responsible for your lack of faith.
You started out by describing how smart you were at an early age to detect all the flaws in Christianity.

*Or why wouldn't god who is supposed ot have power over everything just destroy satan and let people think clearly.*

"Clearly" only means something relative to its opposite.
You are what we can compare clear thinking against.

*They punished him for bringing in a photo of what looks ot be an angel that his grandma took.*

And they didn't think to ask what brand of camera she was using?

*you socialize them to associate bad with your churches and you socialize them to associate anger, and stress, and negativity with it, your just killing yourselves one child at a time.*

Hey, I think you've hit upon the reason for the existence of some religions, e.g. Catholicism, and some of its offshoots, like Lutheranism.

*if you were to grow in in say... India.... would you still be christian??? Any logical person would say that you would have a completely other set of "absolute" beliefs........*

How does that explain the presence of Christians in India?

* if you were wondering anyone, I have developed my own philosophy/belief about the nature of reality.*

No, really?

*Sorry it got turned into Christian bashing in the end, that was not my intention believe it or not, *

No biggie, that happens a lot with people who invent their own religions.

*was it ever said in the Bible that the snake had lied to Adam and Eve?*

No.
He started right in with a question.
Oddly enough, most atheists seem to agree with Satan's approach.
Two problems.
1. Questioning means you don't know.
2. That's one of the ways Satan tricks you, in that he can rightfully claim that he didn't lie, since he was only asking a question. He just lets your mind wander. Just see the crap taught as evolution to see what flights of fancy a wandering mind can come up with.

*why was he confused and wandering around the garden looking for Adam and Eve after they ate of the tree of knowledge?*

You don't understand the nature of questions.
Questions don't necessarily mean that the questioner doesn't know, nor does it mean that the questioner doesn't know what the replier will answer, except in the case of atheists.
In that case, God was asking so that Adam would know that there was something different, such as not ever having been asked that before.

*The one wandering and punishing them was a different less powerful god, and he not being the god of forgiveness punished adam and eve.*

You really weren't paying attention.
Adam and Eve weren't punished, they were completely sucked in.
Satan didn't deliver what he promised, (what are the odds?) and they were cursed, not punished.

*The reason you can't find that in the Bible is that humans had no knowledge of such things like other planets existing*

Oh come oooon.
The planets have been visible for thousands of years.

*I personally think life on other planets would be something rather major to discuss or reveal in such a book*

It would be, so the fact that it isn't might be a hint.

*well the kind of life I am speaking of is the plat life and the various microbes and things found and already proven, not to mention the possiblility of other races.*

It is proven in science fiction, for sure.
As a matter of fact, in science fiction, that kind of thing is part of the background.
In real life, however....

Oh come oooon.
The planets have been visible for thousands of years.
Yes, but thousands of years ago no one had any idea what they were.
How fortunate for you, that you are God in your own religion.
This coming from a guy that is invunerable to everything of this world? Hmm... :confused:
well the kind of life I am speaking of is the plat life and the various microbes and things found and already proven, not to mention the possiblility of other races.
Hell, our sun could be alive for all we know. "Life" doesn't have to be carbon based to be life.

*Originally posted by Xelios
Yes, but thousands of years ago no one had any idea what they were.*

For people who had no idea what they were, it seems strange that they would call them planets, instead of stars.
They must have had some idea since they called them something different from stars.

*This coming from a guy that is invunerable to everything of this world? Hmm...*

Wink, wink, just play along.
I'm just avoiding completely disrupting caonight's delusion.

For people who had no idea what they were, it seems strange that they would call them planets, instead of stars.
They must have had some idea since they called them something different from stars.
We must be talking about different times here. When our ancestors first looked up at the sky, they had no idea what they were seeing. Of course, now it's a proven fact that Mars and other planets exist. We know exactly what they are. We've even sent probes to them.
Wink, wink, just play along.
I'm just avoiding completely disrupting caonight's delusion.
....riiight... :confused: