Livni: Qana attack led to turning point in support for Israel ( http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html)
It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.
Revealing is that in targeting an area for destruction that no rockets were being fired from, Israel has just proven that the rockets were not a real priority for their invasion of Lebanon .
'There is no ceasefire. There will not be any ceasefire' (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0%2C%2C1834536%2C00.html)
Israeli PM Olmert issues grim warning as US blocks moves for immediate cessation of hostilities
Taken together with this story, this proves Israels real agenda is not 'self-defense', but conquest.

I could say the same for Hezbollah, who routinely use indescriminate weapons against Israeli cities. So, they made a mistake and hit a non-military target. How does this assist in conquest? If conquest was their goal, military targets would be preferrable.

Again, you refuse to show the complete context:
It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.
OK

The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.
Admitting mistakes, that's good, right?

The site was included in an IAF plan to strike at several buildings in proximity to a previous launching site. Similar strikes were carried out in the past. However, there were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike.
Oh, so there were rockets coming from that area in the past. That's different than no rockets at all. Maybe Hezbollah wanted those civilians dead for their PR campaign, it's not like they have any morals.

Wasn't there something about how most of the deaths were from the building collapse, which occurred eight hours after the strike?

Also, the Red Cross was supposed to have posted only 23 deaths, yet Lebanese authorities claimed 50 or so. Any civilian deaths are too many, of course: one hopes this kind of thing would discourage Hezbollah from firing their rockets from civilian areas.

I could say the same for Hezbollah, who routinely use indescriminate weapons against Israeli cities. So, they made a mistake and hit a non-military target. How does this assist in conquest? If conquest was their goal, military targets would be preferrable.

Again, you refuse to show the complete context:
I gave an Israeli newsarticle so there wouldnt be any question from zionist defenders as yourself over the source . However what brought about the admission was the Red Cross .
'No Hezbollah Rockets Fired from Qana' (http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34186)
QANA, Aug 1 (IPS) - Red Cross workers and residents of Qana, where Israeli bombing killed at least 60 civilians, have told IPS that no Hezbollah rockets were launched from the city before the Israeli air strike.
You see Israel got caught out .
OK
No its not OK to deliberately murder and lie about it .
Admitting mistakes, that's good, right?
It wasnt a mistake , no rockets were fired from the building , and Israel being caught out is making up bullshit to get out of it . As HRW says that Southern Lebanon has been turned into a free fire zone (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5232434.stm)
Oh, so there were rockets coming from that area in the past. That's different than no rockets at all. Maybe Hezbollah wanted those civilians dead for their PR campaign, it's not like they have any morals.
Again it is the Haaretz source and Israel claims that , no proof has been offered , I provided the article to show IDF admission there were no Hezbollah activity , however would like more ? Here Human Rights Watch (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5232434.stm) where they said responsibility for Qana rested "squarely with the Israeli military".
Wasn't there something about how most of the deaths were from the building collapse, which occurred eight hours after the strike?
Or was that the Israeli claim ?
Also, the Red Cross was supposed to have posted only 23 deaths, yet Lebanese authorities claimed 50 or so.
Because as the removal of bodies from under rubble takes some time and there is no question now as to how many have died , 54 the worlds media has film of it .
Any civilian deaths are too many, of course: one hopes this kind of thing would discourage Hezbollah from firing their rockets from civilian areas.
Rockets fired in retaliation to an Israeli aggressive military advance , and remeber Israel started it by It's war by any other name (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html)
It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory.
" It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel " ;)

There was no rocket activity that day, but there had been in the past. So, they were not acting on an immediate threat, which might have been more justifiable, they were acting on intel they gathered in the past.

Yes, the IDF is the immediate cause of civilian deaths, that is not under dispute. That this amounts to murder is not so clear, as it is in the context of a war on Hezbollah. Israel feels this campaign in general is in self-defence, and mistakes happen in war, which Hezbollah is gleefully capitalizing on and perhaps encouraging.

Again, no context for your statement, no proper acknowledgement of the complexity of events:

It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel

Let me fill you in.

It started on July 12, when the Hezbollah began "Operation Truthful Promise", to capture Israeli soldiers with the goal of a prisoner exchange.

Hezbollah guerrillas crossed the border and launched a surprise attack on two Israeli Humvees, killing three soldiers, wounding two and capturing the two others, the Israeli army said.

Israel quickly sent armored vehicles over the border on a rescue mission, but one of the tanks rolled over a mine, killing the four soldiers inside and sparking a battle that killed another soldier, the army said.
---------------
Wikipedia illustrates the two conflicting accounts:

Beginning of conflict
At 9:05 AM local time, a ground contingent of Hezbollah militants attacked two Israeli armored Humvees on a routine patrol along the Israel-Lebanon border near the Israeli village of Zar'it with anti-tank rockets, abducting two Israeli soldiers, and killing three.[12] Five others were killed later on the Lebanese side of the border on 12 July during a mission to rescue the two captured soldiers. [13]According to the Lebanese police force and Hezbollah, the Israeli soldiers were attacked and captured on the Lebanese side of the border on 12 July during a mission to infiltrate the Lebanese town of Ayta al-Sha`b.[14]
-------------
Haaretz provides this account:
The militants attacked two IDF armored Hummer jeeps patrolling along the border with gunfire and explosives, in the midst of massive shelling attacks on Israel's north. Three soldiers were killed in the attack and two were taken hostage.

Later in the day, four IDF soldiers were apparently killed when their tank hit a mine some 6 kilometers inside Lebanese territory...

Hezbollah said its guerrillas destroyed two Israeli tanks that attempted to cross the border into Lebanon on two different occasions Wednesday.

The IDF had Wednesday afternoon sent troops across the border to search for the missing soldiers, marking the first incursion into Lebanon since the withdrawal in May 2000.

Who were they trying to free in this prisoner exchange?

Samir Kuntar Arabic: سمير القنطار‎ (born July 20, 1962 in Aabey, Lebanon), is a Lebanese who participated in a terrorist attack on Israeli civilians in 1979. He has been held in Israeli jails under a four-times-life sentence since his conviction in 1979 on charges of murder and terrorism, for murdering 3 Israeli civilians (a 28-year-old male and his 4-year-old daughter) and killing two Israeli policemen. [wiki] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Kuntar)

spidergoat:

There was no rocket activity that day, but there had been in the past. So, they were not acting on an immediate threat, which might have been more justifiable, they were acting on intel they gathered in the past.

1. We don't really know whether they were acting on 'intel they gathered in the past'. For all we know, that is merely a weak rationalization to cover their ass. Unless Israel has proof, then there word is worth dog shit on my boot heel.

2. The fact remains that when Israel did bomb that building, there were women and children inside, and no terrorists. I guess you could try claiming that every brown skin is a potential terrorist, but the people inside that building died innocent according to the law, and according to common sense. If they weren't firing rockets, then it's a safe bet to assume that they were civilians.

Quite simply, I don't give a shit about what Israel 'thought'. I do give a shit about what they 'did', and their 'results'. The fact that they murdered women and children, while not even getting one terrorist in the bargain, tells me that they fucked up big time. And that their fuck up is unacceptable.

How about the same for Hezbullah?

Such mistakes happen in war. That doesn't overrule the justification for the war itself, or prove that the objective is not self-defense. We wouldn't know that there wasn't any rocket fire coming from the building that day if Israel hadn't admitted it, so you wouldn't know if they fucked up at all if not for the word of the IDF.

Buffalo:

How about the same for Hezbullah?

Why are you bring Hezbollah into this? We're discussing Israel, buddy. Don't try to deflect attention from Israel.

spidergoat:
Such mistakes happen in war.

Such 'mistakes' are not justified. They are strictly against the Geneva Conventions. Either Israel needs to stop targeting civilians, or it needs to get its act together and be a little more precise.


That doesn't overrule the justification for the war itself,

Of course not. Hitler may have had perfect justification for re-united the age old German Empire. That still doesn't justify the numerous atrocities of the Nazis.


or prove that the objective is not self-defense.

Demolishing civilian structures, and then engaging in aerial bombardment which has resulted in a large loss of civilian life, are not acts of self defense. They are vindictive acts of aggression, revenge, and a desire to crush all thought of independence, resistance, and national pride.


We wouldn't know that there wasn't any rocket fire coming from the building that day if Israel hadn't admitted it, so you wouldn't know if they fucked up at all if not for the word of the IDF.

You're quite right in that all we have is the IDF's word. However, until an investigation is done into the matter by an IMPARTIAL tribunal, then what actually happened is unknown. What we do know is that there was a massive loss of civilian life. At worst, Israel targeted civilians. At best, they made a military blunder, which is not what you would expect from a professional army with state of the art equipment and intel.

So Brian, when are you going to Lebanon to fight for Hezbollah? Have you accepted any Palastinians to live with you yet??

Mountain,

If Hezbollah dresses like Civilians, hides in Civilian areas, shoot weapons from Civilian areas, uses Civilians as human shields- How exactly do you expect there to be a low civilian casualty count? Not to mention we have no real idea how many of those Civilians are Hezbollah being that they do not wear uniforms.

Typical blah blah blah from you two.

Not to mention we have no real idea how many of those Civilians are Hezbollah being that they do not wear uniforms.
hizbollah itself identified which of its members have been killed in lebanon.

There was no rocket activity that day, but there had been in the past.
No , Israel backtracked and claimed first up that rockets were fired from that building , and when this version of events was debunked , the claim was that in the village were Hezbollah rocket launching sites and arms dumps . Now the claim is that rockets were fired from there in the past , so now the IDF will hide behind the old " Im so sorry but it was out dated intel mistake " . Sorry I am not buying it .
Again, no context for your statement, no proper acknowledgement of the complexity of events:
No I fully uderstand and appreciate the sources of what I post , it is just your plain pig ignorance to stare facts directly in the face and ignore them .
Let me fill you in.
No I will fill you in !
Here are 2 reputable western news sources first Forbes
Hezbollah Captures 2 Israeli Soldiers (http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html)
The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them. The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity
And now a French source :
Liban: le Hezbollah capture deux soldats israéliens, sept autres tués (http://fr.news.yahoo.com/12072006/202/liban-le-hezbollah-capture-deux-soldats-israeliens-sept-autres-tues.html)
AITA AL-CHAAB (AFP) - Le Hezbollah libanais a capturé mercredi deux soldats israéliens et sept autres ont été tués à la suite d'une opération destinée selon son chef à obtenir la libération de détenus libanais en Israël, qui a riposté par une série de raids contre le sud du Liban.
TRANSLATION :
According to the Lebanese police force, the two soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aïta Al-Chaab close to the border, whereas Israeli television indicated that they had been captured in Israeli territory.
See " in the area of Aïta Al-Chaab " now go to a map and where is " Aïta Al-Chaab " ?
http://www.fourwinds10.com/PhotoManagement/10189.gif
Got it !!! INSIDE LEBANON NOT ISRAEL !!!!
Such mistakes happen in war. That doesn't overrule the justification for the war itself, or prove that the objective is not self-defense. We wouldn't know that there wasn't any rocket fire coming from the building that day if Israel hadn't admitted it, so you wouldn't know if they fucked up at all if not for the word of the IDF.
No , no , no get it through your head , The Red Cross , HRW and the UN are all there in Lebanon and are watching what is transpiring Israel cant LIE it is being found out . Israel admitted there were no rockets fored from the building when observers witnessed the event . Whats amazing is Israel backtracking and deliberate deceptive information and your gullability to accept what Israel says . I gave you the benefit of the doubt , I believed you were unbiased in your beliefs as regard to the mideast/Isreal conflict , in fact you are just an apoligist for the theocratic Zionist state . And as for your " right-wing lies cost lives " you are a defender of right wing LIES .

So Brian, when are you going to Lebanon to fight for Hezbollah?
Oh this infantile shit again .
Have you accepted any Palastinians to live with you yet??
Why their homes are in what is now Israel , and if you are so concerned about justice why arent you fighting for their return ?
If Hezbollah dresses like Civilians, hides in Civilian areas, shoot weapons from Civilian areas, uses Civilians as human shields-
The "hiding among civilians" myth (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/index_np.html)
Israel claims it's justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn't trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.
Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

Typical blah blah blah from you two.
Typical non-sensical over emotional bullshit from you ....again .

Israel claims it's justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn't trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.

LOL

Yeah, thats why there are numerous pictures of Hezbollah fighters wearing civlian clothes in civilian areas.

"Far away as possible"

LOL

You cant honestly believe that. A guerilla group staying away from Civilians...riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iight

You cant honestly believe that. A guerilla group staying away from Civilians...riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iight
All the ground engagements between the IDF , who by the way are seeking out Hezbollah , have been fought away from civilian centres , in the mountains . Or do you have proof that ground fighting is taking place near civilian centres ?

Or was that the Israeli claim ?

I have two websites that mention the strange delay of having a building bombed, then collapsing 8 hours later, and people still being inside it:

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/8997.htm

http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/188571.php

In other news, a Lebanese website is blaming Hezbollah for the deaths:

"We have it from a credible source that Hizbullah, alarmed by Siniora's plan, has concocted an incident that would help thwart the negotiations.
Knowing full well that Israel will not hesitate to bombard civilian targets, Hizbullah gunmen placed a rocket launcher on the roof in Qana and brought disabled children inside, in a bid to provoke a response by the Israeli Air Force. In this way, they were planning to take advantage of the death of innocents and curtail the negotiation initiative," the site stated.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284514,00.html#n

http://www.libanoscopie.com/fulldoc.asp?doccode=994&cat=2



Because as the removal of bodies from under rubble takes some time and there is no question now as to how many have died , 54 the worlds media has film of it .

Not at all - a very recent Ynet article indicates that the Red Cross only pulled 28 people out of the wreckage.

Lebanese minister of justice states that Israel's attacks constitute war crimes, crimes against humanity, and wonders how pictures of Qana did not bring about ceasefire. Red Cross publishes that 28 corpses evacuated from Qana, contrary to Lebanese reports that 57 people were killed.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284627,00.html

Even one of course is too many, but there's no doubt whatsoever that Hezbollah has been encouraging civilian casualties by firing from civilian areas, and from beside UN compounds, such as the one where the four Peacekeepers were killed. Besides being a fairly sick PR tactic, it demonstrates no concern for human life, not even that of other Lebanese.

Rockets fired in retaliation to an Israeli aggressive military advance

From the same article:

In this week's events in Lebanon, the one set of parties, which include Syria, the Palestinians, Iran, Arab nationalists in the Middle East and North Africa, along with jihadi Muslims in the Muslim World, believe that escalation is the only solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Pretty much says it all.

Of course the other big problem is that now there seem to be emerging some doubts about the staging of the photos taken by AP:

NEW YORK - Three news agencies on Tuesday rejected challenges to the veracity of photographs of bodies taken in the aftermath of an Israeli airstrike in Lebanon, strongly denying that the images were staged.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060801/ap_on_re_us/mideast_photos

A British website has a compelling case from the timestamps on the photos that there was quite a great deal of staging of photos, apparently:

For example, the Web site draws attention to a photo by AP's Lefteris Pitarakis time stamped 7:21 a.m., showing a dead girl in an ambulance. Another picture, stamped 10:25 a.m. and taken by AP's Mohammed Zaatari, shows the same girl being loaded onto the ambulance. In a third, by AP photographer Nasser Nasser and stamped 10:44 a.m., a rescue worker carries the girl with no ambulance nearby.

AP claims that the pics are released according to news value; but why not simply address all such criticisms by releasing the original time stamps? Why too the posing of the bodies and the guy carrying them?

Wierdest of all, the same guy was seen doing the same thing in 1996.

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/who-is-this-man.html

A good question indeed. Who is that guy?

now the IDF will hide behind the old " Im so sorry but it was out dated intel mistake " . Sorry I am not buying it .

Too bad for you. They were indeed firing rockets from there earlier, whether you like it or not. I simply don't buy your "Hezbollah is innocent and their farts smell like roses" facade.

Here Foley makes an interesting error: he deliberately mistranslates the cite on this French article.

CORRECT TRANSLATION:

Hezbollah captures two Israeli soldiers, seven others killed.
AITA AL-CHAAB (AFP): On Wednesday, Lebanese Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers and seven others were killed after an operation conducted, according to its leader, to obtain the liberation of Lebanese prisoners in Israel, which was responded by a series of raids against the south of Lebanon.

The paragraph he refers to - where he accepts uncritically the Lebanese version of events - is actually further down.

Incidentally, the above translation suggests that it was Hezbollah that initiated the entire conflict. How coincidental that they had all those missiles stocked up, too.

See " in the area of Aïta Al-Chaab " now go to a map and where is " Aïta Al-Chaab " ?
http://www.fourwinds10.com/PhotoManagement/10189.gif
Got it !!! INSIDE LEBANON NOT ISRAEL !!!!

Actually, that appears to be where the AP story was posted. Foley, please consult the original French article and tell us all where the attack actually occurred. Thanks.

I also note the article was submitted by "Jihad Saqlawi".

Nuff said.

The Red Cross , HRW and the UN are all there in Lebanon and are watching what is transpiring Israel cant LIE it is being found out .

Is that the same Red Cross that only reported 28 casualties, not 54? The same UN that protested ("strongly", even) when Hezbollah repeatedly used half a dozen UN positions to launch attacks?

I hope we're talking about the same organizations here.

Such 'mistakes' are not justified. They are strictly against the Geneva Conventions. Either Israel needs to stop targeting civilians, or it needs to get its act together and be a little more precise.

Utter idiocy, as per usual. Mistakes are permitted; deliberate targetting of civilians - which is Hezbollah's strategy, and Hamas' - is not. Mountainhare's head need a shake.

At best, they made a military blunder, which is not what you would expect from a professional army with state of the art equipment and intel.

Because professional armies with state of the art equipment and intel cannot make mistakes, of course.

Circle the arguments; the Zionists are coming.

crazy:

If Hezbollah dresses like Civilians,

Why wouldn't they?


hides in Civilian areas, shoot weapons from Civilian areas,

Silly bullshit. In urban warfare, guerillas are forced to fight in the streets. And ironically, Hezbollah went to great effort to evacuate civilians.


uses Civilians as human shields

More silly bullshit.


- How exactly do you expect there to be a low civilian casualty count?

Easy. Don't engage in indiscriminant bombing. A five year old could have told you that.


Not to mention we have no real idea how many of those Civilians are Hezbollah being that they do not wear uniforms.

And I could say the same regarding Israeli 'civilians'. How many 'civilians' are actually members of the Reserves?
In fact, there are many sects of the American forces who don't wear military uniforms.

I have two websites that mention the strange delay of having a building bombed, then collapsing 8 hours later, and people still being inside it:
Websites , websites , both rightwing beacons , yet he never offers credible media sources such as the BBC .
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/8997.htm
Yeah right this source claims Hezbollah staged the deaths Hollywood style , Fuck me your loon blogs are taking on a Disneyworldesque world of their own.
http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/188571.php
And this one claims the footage was faked by Hezbollah , ok , jokes over how about something credible that doesn’t include the Sasquatch .
In other news, a Lebanese website is blaming Hezbollah for the deaths:
Yeah what an unbiased source ROFL .
The Lebanese website LIBANOSCOPIE , associated with Christian elements in the country and which openly supports the anti-Syrian movement called the "March 14 Forces," reported that Hizbullah has masterminded a plan that would result in the killing of innocents in the Qana village, in a bid to foil Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora's "Seven Points Plan", which calls for deployment of the Lebanese army in southern Lebanon and the disarming of Hizbullah.
Could you provide legitimate news sources ok .
Too bad for you.
Lets have proof , independent verification , that Hezbollah had been firing from there .
Here Foley makes an interesting error: he deliberately mistranslates the cite on this French article.
I dont speak French and that is how the translation came out . You have been caught out Lying about sources before , when you clkaimed on several occasions you could not access my sites , therby avoiding answering me . This was rectified by 3 posters verifying my links did indeed work .
Foley, please consult the original French article and tell us all where the attack actually occurred. Thanks.
Well , Fuck if you opened your eyes and right at the beginning of the top left hand corner you will see written in capital letters :
Liban: le Hezbollah capture deux soldats israéliens, sept autres tués (http://fr.news.yahoo.com/12072006/202/liban-le-hezbollah-capture-deux-soldats-israeliens-sept-autres-tues.html)
AITA AL-CHAAB
;) You see now .
Nuff said.
Precisely my sentiments , go away , you , ignorant , utterly ignorant Arse head .

Silly bullshit. In urban warfare, guerillas are forced to fight in the streets. And ironically, Hezbollah went to great effort to evacuate civilians.

This is utter bullshit, and unsupported bullshit at that.

Easy. Don't engage in indiscriminant bombing. A five year old could have told you that.

Which, of course, the Israelis aren't doing and Hezbollah is. In light of MH's statement, it's difficult to know who's dumber: him or Hezbollah.

And here comes that I-Heart-Hamas statement:

And I could say the same regarding Israeli 'civilians'. How many 'civilians' are actually members of the Reserves?

Nothing like a pampered git sympathizing with Hamas.

In fact, there are many sects of the American forces who don't wear military uniforms.

"Sects"? What - does he mean the 7th Mormon Light Cavalry? Or the 81st Baptist Parachute Division.

Sects, I ask you.

Websites , websites , both rightwing beacons , yet he never offers credible media sources such as the BBC .

Foley only likes the BBC when it agrees with him anyway. In other times it's a pack of reactionaries. And what the hell does the source matter here? Can't do the math on your watch?

Yeah right this source claims Hezbollah staged the deaths Hollywood style

Even look at the pictures? The way the dead were presented? Course not; silly of me to ask if you'd think about your opinions.

And this one claims the footage was faked by Hezbollah , ok , jokes over how about something credible that doesn’t include the Sasquatch .

Answer the questions or don't. Your choice.

Yeah what an unbiased source ROFL .

Well I admit it's no al-Jazeera...

Could you provide legitimate news sources ok .

Could you?

Lets have proof , independent verification , that Hezbollah had been firing from there .

What's independent? They fired from everywhere else, but just not from there? Please.

I dont speak French and that is how the translation came out .

Well, frankly that's a lie. There is no translator in the world that would generate anything like that. Don't know why you're lying about it; don't care.

You have been caught out Lying about sources before

A lie.

when you clkaimed on several occasions you could not access my sites

I couldn't. One of them at the very least was clearly made up. Don't get mad - I'm only using the rules you treat me and other with on the forum.

This was rectified by 3 posters verifying my links did indeed work .

Another lie. Geez.

Well , Fuck if you opened your eyes and right at the beginning of the top left hand corner you will see written in capital letters :

No, that's where the AFP story was filed from. Where were the attacks?

Foley - I don't expect much from you, but something, please.

I'm just going to backtrack to something said before

Mountainhare:

Originally Posted by mountainhare
Such 'mistakes' are not justified. They are strictly against the Geneva Conventions. Either Israel needs to stop targeting civilians, or it needs to get its act together and be a little more precise.

Have you read the Geneva Convention? Probably not, its a load of legal mumbo jumbo, gave me a headache and took me three decent attempts to get through it and understand it. Its one of those documents people bandy around a fair bit with little understanding of the actual content. As far as most people are concerned POW's and Civilians are protected by it... Full stop. Actually the conventions are unclear when it comes to the definition of Combatants and non-combatants, military targets and non-military targets... etc... It leaves alot to be debated.

Also another misconception is that the Geneva Conventions are applied equally to all those who signed it. When states became signatories to the document they reserved the right to change certain legalities of it so it would fit in with their law, also there have been 3 subsequent protocols that, among other things, make an effort to further define non-combatants in reference to "Guerilla Warfare". Israel signed the original 4 conventions but changed certain legalities of it to suit their own law, and they havn't signed any of the subsequent protocols.

What i'm trying to get at, is as long as they are going for military targets, and as long as they can give proof to this, then ultimately everything they are doing, including the "collateral damage" is perfectly legal according to the Geneva Conventions. If say for example, they bombed a target that had or was a staging point for rocket launchers (which it is increasingly becoming obvious it was), despite the fact that its in the middle of a civilian centre, according to the Geneva Convention, it is fair game. I believe that the question should not be the legality of it but the morality of it.

That is the real debate. So please keep the cries of Geneva Convention violations to a minimum. It is a very hard law to violate deliberately these days and if it were the case then there would be at the very least, an investigation conducted by the UN.

space:

Have you read the Geneva Convention?

I have read the portions which are relevant to current issues.


Its one of those documents people bandy around a fair bit with little understanding of the actual content. As far as most people are concerned POW's and Civilians are protected by it... Full stop.

Since we are discussing the deaths of civilians, then I am justified in mentioning the Geneva Conventions. Because as you admit, civilians ARE protected by it... full stop.


What i'm trying to get at, is as long as they are going for military targets, and as long as they can give proof to this, then ultimately everything they are doing, including the "collateral damage" is perfectly legal according to the Geneva Conventions.

Cite the passage of the Geneva Conventions which supports your assertion. You might want to include the principle of proportionality.

spaceman steve:

"which it is increasingly becoming obvious it was"

You're behind with the news; Israel has admitted there were no rockets coming from there.
This of course was done only after Red Cross workers declared there had been no rockets fired from there.

An average of more than 100 civilians per day were killed in Iraq last month, the United Nations reported Tuesday, registering what appears to be the highest official monthly tally of violent deaths since the fall of Baghdad. Suicide bombings and Sunni Shite violence account for the loss of lives.
Iraqi's kill their own and nobody cares!!!,
Oh its just civil war thats ok,..as long as they are moslem it doesn't matter!!.. but if a non-moslem force drops a bomb on Qana..its a big deal.
Whats the difference?, all of them are civilians too...
Its one thing to count the dead in one war and make a big deal out of it and totally ignore it in another one.
Thanks to the media !!!

An average of more than 100 civilians per day were killed in Iraq last month, the United Nations reported Tuesday, registering what appears to be the highest official monthly tally of violent deaths since the fall of Baghdad. Suicide bombings and Sunni Shite violence account for the loss of lives.
Iraqi's kill their own and nobody cares!!!,
Oh its just civil war thats ok,..as long as they are moslem it doesn't matter!!.. but if a non-moslem force drops a bomb on Qana..its a big deal.
Whats the difference?, all of them are civilians too...
Its one thing to count the dead in one war and make a big deal out of it and totally ignore it in another one.
Thanks to the media !!!

My greatest objection to this war is that the number of dead children far outweigh the number of dead soldiers. War is about soldiers, who are trained in combat, expect it and can counter it. Not about sleeping or disabled children or about children subjected to white phosphorus or cluster bombs.

Samcdkey,
your missing the point!.
Iraqi civilians are killed on a daily basis children,women ordinary civilians!!!
Not by soldiers but by Iraqi insurgents and Sunni -Shite mobs!!
Suicide bombings are almost daily . Does that make it alright?
There are still dead women and children in this conflict!!

Samcdkey,
your missing the point!.
Iraqi civilians are killed on a daily basis children,women ordinary civilians!!!
Not by soldiers but by Iraqi insurgents and Sunni -Shite mobs!!
Suicide bombings are almost daily . Does that make it alright?
There are still dead women and children in this conflict!!

Yes and something should definitely be done about it.

Iraq is a long list of bad decisions gone awry. Even the US is at it's wits end.
It increasingly looks like Saddam was the lesser evil.
But the problem in Iraq is that it's not the government of Iraq nor the US government (at least I hope it is not) who are directly involved in the deaths. The problem is that some fundamentalists want to take advantage of the shaky government in order to grab power.


Who are the suicide bombers of Iraq? By the radicals' account, they are an internationalist brigade of Arabs, with the largest share in the online lists from Saudi Arabia and a significant minority from other countries on Iraq's borders, such as Syria and Kuwait. The roster of the dead on just one extremist Web site reviewed by The Washington Post runs to nearly 250 names, ranging from a 13-year-old Syrian boy said to have died fighting the Americans in Fallujah to the reigning kung fu champion of Jordan, who sneaked off to wage war by telling his family he was going to a tournament.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/14/AR2005051401270.html


This has happened before in Afghanistan, when the Taliban did it.

At this point these fundamentalists are using car bombs and suicide bombers to further their objectives. I doubt there will be any resolution in the short term. I also doubt that the Iraqis themselves want any part of it. But they have been under a repressive regime and have no resistance groups to help them combat. US interets take precedence over Iraqi interests for the Americans and they are primarily involved in keeping their own losses low.

It might help if the US were to involve the UN. But then what about the oil?

Mountainhare:

Cite the passage of the Geneva Conventions which supports your assertion. You might want to include the principle of proportionality.

Its not just one passage, it is the whole document. Military targets are fair game. The problem is it doesn't define military or non-military targets properly, and it doesn't define when you can't fire at these military targets. Thats what i'm trying to get at.

The definitions that are covered by the document are very VERY hazy to say the least.

Since we are discussing the deaths of civilians, then I am justified in mentioning the Geneva Conventions. Because as you admit, civilians ARE protected by it... full stop.

I'm not denying whether or not they are protected by it, but when it comes to "collateral damage", That is where the conventions fail. Like i mentioned above, very very hazy definitions.

The whole document needs a reworking to fit with modern warfare. These were designed ages ago when warfare was still a somewhat gentlemans affair, and everything was about a fair fight...

Samcdkey:

If what you say is true then i retract my statement. But that still doesn't change the actual legality of the general situation in Lebanon. Unfortunately. My point i was trying to get at is that if Israel continue to bomb "Military targets", and can give proof as to the reasoning behind the classification. Then the "Collateral Damage" that we are seeing is not covered by the Geneva Conventions... like i said, unfortunately.

Legally it is ok

morally........???

That should be the debating point not the legalities of it.

Steve, my question is the Morality of letting your own troops die, if you change the definition of when you can hit a target in self defense, you just have opened it up for every terrorist in the world to embed into the civilian infrastructure and kill you at will, if anything the convention should make the lose of civilians fall upon the entity that deliberately set up the battle field to generate civilian casualties, and doesn't try to evacuate the local population before they start the fight, didn't explain this well but I think you understand my point.

a big problem with that, buffalo....it is very difficult to prove "setting the battlefield up".
i agree, however.

Agreed. The responsibility, in this type of conflict, shouldn't be solely on one party. In this case Israel cops alot of flak for the bombing. Now we all have to admit that Hezbollah is doing a decent job of confusing Israeli intelligence... Such confusion leads to... well... horrific incidents like Qana.

Now the way i see it, is Hezbollah is creating the confusion and shaping the battlefield such that civilians are the main casualty. Why is this all Israel's fault? Sure Israel should take a little more care, but at the end of the day Hezbollah is causing things to go this way. Now lets say for example, Hezbollah had all of the civilians best interests at heart, they go out and fight in the plains, the mountains and leave major population centres alone... would we have this problem?

the conflict would last about 6 hours if it were not being fought in residential areas.

if hezbollah were to engage in a straight up fight with the israeli military, it would be suicide...pointless and stupid.

i did see an interesting anderson cooper report that showed hezbollah setting PR stunts up though...

the truth lies somewhere in the middle of all this name calling and backbiting.

2 thumbs down for israel, 1 and a half thumbs down for hezbollah.
2 thumbs UP for iran and syria, for not escalating the conflict.

Not really, in this case, look at the videos, and read reports from Lebanese who live there,

And another Lebanese opinion:

30 July 2006
A Lebanese Shia explains how Hezbollah uses human shields
Judeoscope

In a letter to the editor of the Berlin daily Der Tagesspiegel a Lebanese Shia explains how after Israel’s withdrawal from South Lebanon, Hezbollah stored rockets in bunkers in his town and built a school and residence over it.

I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajun that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like me. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to have the say in our town and all other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters, they appeared armed to the teeth and dug rocket depots in bunkers in our town as well. The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers! A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rocket depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians. These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda. As long as they continue existing there, there will be no tranquility and peace.

Dr. Mounir Herzallah
Berlin-Wedding

I do believe this constitutes setting up the battle field.

the question is..can things like this statement be verified?

Watch the videos, the speed at which the Katushia launchers are driven into the buildings, no maneuvering to get the trucks into cover, just a straight in duck and cover, the entrances and the underground areas have to be specially constructed to do that at the speed that they are doing this.

Agreed. The responsibility, in this type of conflict, shouldn't be solely on one party. In this case Israel cops alot of flak for the bombing. Now we all have to admit that Hezbollah is doing a decent job of confusing Israeli intelligence... Such confusion leads to... well... horrific incidents like Qana.

Now the way i see it, is Hezbollah is creating the confusion and shaping the battlefield such that civilians are the main casualty. Why is this all Israel's fault? Sure Israel should take a little more care, but at the end of the day Hezbollah is causing things to go this way. Now lets say for example, Hezbollah had all of the civilians best interests at heart, they go out and fight in the plains, the mountains and leave major population centres alone... would we have this problem?

All assumptions based on Israeli statements.

Frankly after the last two weeks, I doubt the veracity of their statements.
Lets look at the facts.

Have you seen this?
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/index_np.html
The "hiding among civilians" myth
Israel claims it's justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn't trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.

They have lied about the "involvement" in bint Jbael where they aimed 350-360 bombs in half an hour completelty destroying the city. Their justification of a "ground fight" there with the Hezbollah is very puzzling, since the CNN crews were unable to find any arsenal consistent with a ground fight (eg no shells or bullets). The only aresenal was the remanants of Israeli missiles.


They have attacked UN convoys with Australian flags and fired on German journalists. The extent of destruction in bint Jbael and Beirut is inconsistent with an attack on militants and more consistent with complete and utter destruction of infrastructure. The Israelis have also fired at convoys after being informed about their presence.

There have been no pictures of destroyed rocket launchers and the figures of Hezbollah fighters killed (as said by the Israeli army to the reporters) vary from 3 to 100. No proof of Hezbollah fighters killed or engaged (bodies, names) are forthcoming from the Israelis, in those locations where the civilian casualties were maximum.

They have lied about providing a "humanitarian corridor" as evidenced by their refusal to allow humanitarian aid to pass.
30 July- WFP cancelled the delivery of an aid convoy to the southern Lebanese town of Marjayoun amid intensified bombardment of roads and villages in southern Lebanon and after the Israeli Defence Forces declined to give their agreement to the shipment going ahead- WFP
http://www.irinnews.org/lebanonKey.asp

They have provided videos implicating Hezbollah's involvement in Qana which were later proved false due to eyewitness accounts by the Red Cross.

What does an objective look at these facts indicate?

Sam:

Appreciated, but i have seen photo's of Hezbollah militants operating their machines in civilian area's, i posted the link for BR a little while back. Another note was that some of them were wearing civilian clothing.

This wasn't released by Israel, it was released by an independant reporter who had to smuggle the photo's out of Lebanon.

In my opinion, an independant reporter is a little more unbiased than Israel or Hezbollah, so i'll stick with that

A small point, nobody is claiming that they are hiding in the civilians populations, the point is that they are fighting from behind the civilian population, which they use for cover and propaganda, and again look at were their fighting positions, armories, command structure, and launch positions, are located, then look at the IHL and Geneva Conventions, in whole and that would be a start at a objective look at the problem.

Sam:

Appreciated, but i have seen photo's of Hezbollah militants operating their machines in civilian area's, i posted the link for BR a little while back. Another note was that some of them were wearing civilian clothing.

This wasn't released by Israel, it was released by an independant reporter who had to smuggle the photo's out of Lebanon.

In my opinion, an independant reporter is a little more unbiased than Israel or Hezbollah, so i'll stick with that

There are many wings of the Hezbollah and the fighting militants (all 5000 of them) are a highly trained covert group who are aware that there is a history of Maronite Christians affiliated to the Israelis.

They would be foolish to give the opportunity to be photographed since this would be contrary to the safety of the fighting elite. Do you think the Hezbollah are so foolish? The other wings, the political and social, do the drudge work and are the visible enities. In fact a lot of Shiite youths who are not officially Hezbollah work for them. So how can you say these are the militants?

A small point, nobody is claiming that they are hiding in the civilians populations, the point is that they are fighting from behind the civilian population, which they use for cover and propaganda, and again look at were their fighting positions, armories, command structure, and launch positions, are located, then look at the IHL and Geneva Conventions, in whole and that would be a start at a objective look at the problem.

All the "ground fighting" between the Israelis and Hezbollah (whether real or imagined) has taken place only in the mountains- first in bint Jbael then in Baalbek, both known Hezbollah strongholds.

There have been no known reported engagements anywhere else.
Is that because civilians/humanitarian workers were present in these other places who could verify/contradict Israeli statements? :rolleyes:

Israel has a history of doing as it pleases and then lying about it but wants to cry foul when the other guy does not play by the rules. I believe that all actions will eventually have consequences; what goes around comes around.

As a person who has been there, in other situations, I can tell you that from observation with out the full set of fact, anything stated by civilians/humanitarian workers who were present, is only their opinion of what they saw in their small area of obersavition, and what went on around the corner from them is unknown, and their are reporting is after the fact, as they go in after the action is over. One other point is that most of the quote Humanitarian Aid / Civilians are Hezbullah personnel.

As a person who has been there, in other situations, I can tell you that from observation with out the full set of fact, anything stated by civilians/humanitarian workers who were present, is only their opinion of what they saw in their small area of obersavition, and what went on around the corner from them is unknown, and their are reporting is after the fact, as they go in after the action is over. One other point is that most of the quote Humanitarian Aid / Civilians are Hezbullah personnel.

And what about the reporters?
BBC reporters have done walkthroughs through the areas with massive destruction and pointed out the lack of evidence of any Hezbollah involvement.

Of course this is not shown on US media to the same extent.

After the fact, and escorted on their trip by Hezbullah escorts, to selected areas.

After the fact, and escorted on their trip by Hezbullah escorts, to selected areas.

So there is no real proof either way. No facts.

And I have yet to see remnants of any launchers at any of the civilian sites.

Yes, but I've seen the launchers disappearing into underground parking, which would not be visible to a reporter doing a walk through, especially if escorted, and not allowed to poke around for embarrassing evidence.

I'm currently trying to hack into a military satellite, once I have full control I will beam the pictures of the launch sites directly to you guys...

shh!!..don't tell anyone... :D

Yes, but I've seen the launchers disappearing into underground parking, witch would not be visible to a reporter doing a walk through, especially if escorted, and not allowed to poke around for embarrassing evidence.

But we have only the Israelis word that the videos are not doctored and no other independent verification. If, as they say, they have been targeting the lauchers and vehicles and Hezbollah organizations, why is there absoultely no hard evidence at all?

I'll wait for more conclusive facts before making up my mind.

Plus the Israelis changed their statements about the video on two points: the site (they showed a video of a different site than the one under discussion) and the timing (they claimed it was an older video of the same site). And they said the surrounding buildings were civilian, but is it confirmed?. Not conclusive at all.

2 thumbs down for israel, 1 and a half thumbs down for hezbollah.
2 thumbs UP for iran and syria, for not escalating the conflict.

I dunno Devil - Iran's been rattling their sabres for a while, and Syria's been supplying Hezbollah (probably it's Iranian supplies moving through Syria, but that's as bad).

I'm currently trying to hack into a military satellite, once I have full control I will beam the pictures of the launch sites directly to you guys...

shh!!..don't tell anyone... :D
good luck vega!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sam your reaching.

Not really, in this case, look at the videos, and read reports from Lebanese who live there,

And another Lebanese opinion:

30 July 2006
A Lebanese Shia explains how Hezbollah uses human shields
Judeoscope

In a letter to the editor of the Berlin daily Der Tagesspiegel a Lebanese Shia explains how after Israel’s withdrawal from South Lebanon, Hezbollah stored rockets in bunkers in his town and built a school and residence over it.

I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajun that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like me. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to have the say in our town and all other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters, they appeared armed to the teeth and dug rocket depots in bunkers in our town as well. The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers! A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rocket depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians. These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda. As long as they continue existing there, there will be no tranquility and peace.

Dr. Mounir Herzallah
Berlin-Wedding

I do believe this constitutes setting up the battle field.

He's not even certain if he lives in a small village or a town.

And I bet this was published on a propaganda website, since it never made any mainstream newspapers.

Sam your reaching.

I'm looking at facts.

The problem may be that this was translated from Arabic to German to English and I have seen the problems in just translating between two languages.

But are you really, from my side I am looking at facts to? and the pictures go along with my experience from the military.

But are you really, from my side I am looking at facts to? and the pictures go along with my experience from the military.

Lets look at the facts:

1. There is a letter from an unknown Lebanese to the editor of a newspaper that the Hezbollah hide rockets in bunkers in schools.

Have they found any bunkers under schools?
The Israeli army itself has declared that the bunkers have been found in the mountains

2. According to the Israelis, the Hezbollah use civilians as shields.

This is refuted by all the reporters and makes no logical sense as a tactic for a highly trained covert group.

In addition, the Hezbollah is made up of the sons and daughters of the people who live there. So these suggestions are an attempt to dehumanize the Hezbollah and make them appear as "animals". This is strange considering that in the past 6 years the Hezbollah have been actively engaged in social work, have opened schools and hospitals and even now are helping to keep track of the dead, to bury them as fast as possible and are providing food and water in those areas where they can.

Hezbollah not only has armed and political wings but also boasts an extensive social development programme. The civilian wing also runs hospitals, news services, and educational facilities. Its Reconstruction Campaign ('Jihad al-Bina') is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructural development projects in Lebanon.[16][17] The group currently operates at least four hospitals, 12 clinics, 12 schools, and two agricultural centres that provide farmers with technical assistance and training. It also has an environmental department and an extensive social assistance programme. Medical care is also cheaper than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members.[4] Most experts believe that Hezbollah's social and health programmes are worth hundreds of millions of dollars annually.[4] wikipedia

Can you see the contradictions?

Also only the US and Israel see the Hezbollah as terrorists.
In the ME, Europe and Asia, they are not labeled as such.
Why?

Finding bunkers in the mountains doesn't mean they're only in the mountains.

Do you have a link or article about Hezbollah not being considered terrorists in Europe?

A small update about the supposed targetting of ambulances can also be found here:

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2006/08/more_propaganda.html

Something smells a bit fishy about the presumed ambulance attack.

Finding bunkers in the mountains doesn't mean they're only in the mountains.

Do you have a link or article about Hezbollah not being considered terrorists in Europe?

A small update about the supposed targetting of ambulances can also be found here:

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2006/08/more_propaganda.html

Something smells a bit fishy about the presumed ambulance attack.

Do you mean the Israelis are keeping secret about the ones they found in the hospitals and schools? Anyway I'm basing it on what they said
http://washingtontimes.com/world/20060720-095532-3181r.htm

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200607/INT20060724a.html

Did the Israelis deny the ambulance attack?

Foley only likes the BBC when it agrees with him anyway. In other times it's a pack of reactionaries. And what the hell does the source matter here? Can't do the math on your watch?
Im sorry but the links you provided were people surmising and offering their opinions on the event and attempting to conclude the whole Qana affair was a staged incident by Hezbollah . Im sorry that is absolutely ridiculous Geoff for me to accept .
Could you?
Ok seeing you will not accept the French source , take the American source I provided , Forbes ,
Hezbollah Captures 2 Israeli Soldiers (http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html)
The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them. The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity
Southern Lebanon , that seems a good start .
What's independent? They fired from everywhere else, but just not from there? Please.
So you cant answer it with valid news sources .
Well, frankly that's a lie. There is no translator in the world that would generate anything like that. Don't know why you're lying about it; don't care.
OK so you dont accept the source , Im happy with that , lets take my first news source Forbes , its in English , and explain that , lets move the debate on , and quit with your stalling tactics , you have to prove yourself here .

i love the double standards its ok for hezbullah to kill the innocent civilians willingly but when israel does it on accident OMG THOSE BASTARDS. How are you hezbullah backers so blind to your hypocrisy?

most wars have far more civilian casualties then military casualties this conflict is just like every other conflict. if they wanted to kill civilians they would carpet bomb the country

but instead its been strategic bombing early on followed by tactical joint operations as of late. Strategy you would expect with the goals of trying to retrieve soldiers and eliminate hezbollah.

There is no evidence that Israel is out to kill civilians.

samcdkey:

2. According to the Israelis, the Hezbollah use civilians as shields.

This is refuted by all the reporters and makes no logical sense as a tactic for a highly trained covert group.

But have you read the news reports quoting lebanese civilians who claim that this is exactly what is going on. One person even said "Please tell the world that this is going on". Now i know this isn't exactly conclusive but it does point evidence in the other direction.

Although i won't deny that Hezbollah aren't always in civilian areas, like you said alot of fighting is happening in the mountains, but there seem to be elements hiding in civilian centres. Now what do these elements consist of? Highly trained militants, or just civilians trained to operate equipment on a basic level? that is something we don't know, but highly trained or not they are still combatants.

The problem is, situations like this can severely polarise peoples beliefs. Now on one hand we have Israel apparently targetting militants but causing alot of "Collateral Damage", on the other we have Hezbollah targetting civilians rather indiscriminately. Both sides have to share the blame here, but at the end of the day two facts can be drawn, Israel isn't going anywhere, Hezbollah has been told to disarm by the UN. What i would like to see is a cessation of hostilities on both sides, Israel withdrawing from the area, and Hezbollah, with UN force if need be, Disarming, and finally the lebanese government actually doing something. The amount of silence from the lebanese government in this situation, and their lack of action is quite defeaning.

I think it is a bit contradictory for a political party to have two factions the way hezbollah does. You can't expect to achieve a political aim, which i assume includes diplomacy, and have a militant aim aswell. If they want a military then attempt to control the lebanese government which would give them control of the military there.

There are alot of issues not being debated here

There is no evidence that Israel is out to kill civilians.
Yeah , really ! Have you been living in a cave for the past 2 weeks ?
Health minister: 600 civilians killed in Lebanon (http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=nation_world&id=4406546)
(Beirut, Lebanon-AP, July 27, 2006) - Up to 600 civilians are believed to have been killed in the Israeli offensive in Lebanon, including as many as 200 buried in the rubble of destroyed buildings, the health minister said Thursday
Colour me unconvinced .

The Israelis deliberately kill civilians in an effort to punish those that would dare live in an area of Hezbollah supporters and fighters. Anotherwords the native Shia population that Voted for them. It is an extermination campaign.

The Israelis deliberately kill civilians in an effort to punish those that would dare live in an area of Hezbollah supporters and fighters. Anotherwords the native Shia population that Voted for them. It is an extermination campaign.
More properly it is a tactic of collective punishment , and Im so sure the Israeli objective is Hezbollah here . A lot of IDF activity is happening on the Syrian border .

"In the ME, Europe and Asia, they are not labeled as such.
Why?"

1) The ME funds Hezbollah and hates Isreal.
2) Asia doesnt Care
3) England isnt part of Europe?

Im sorry but the links you provided were people surmising and offering their opinions on the event and attempting to conclude the whole Qana affair was a staged incident by Hezbollah . Im sorry that is absolutely ridiculous Geoff for me to accept .

Given your predilection for conspiracy, I find your opinion hard to accept myself.

Ok seeing you will not accept the French source , take the American source I provided , Forbes ,

Which actually seems to be saying that Hezbollah captured the men on a cross-border attack, and that the Israelis responded by crossing the border themselves. What? You can't read?

So you cant answer it with valid news sources .

Actually, I just used yours.

And no, it's not a question of source, it's a question of your ignorance, Foley. I never said I didn't accept the source.

Do read the source, old timer.

Samcdkey,
your missing the point!.
Iraqi civilians are killed on a daily basis children,women ordinary civilians!!!
Not by soldiers but by Iraqi insurgents and Sunni -Shite mobs!!
Suicide bombings are almost daily . Does that make it alright?
There are still dead women and children in this conflict!!

...and it's a dog-gone-shame that prior to the US sticking there wicked little fingers in the oil, none of this was going on! [now lets hear how suddam this and suddam that....]

Small update on the Qana incident: Hezbollah inflated the casualty estimate.

Lebanese hospital: Number of casualties from Qana air strike is 28, not 52

By The Associated Press and Haaretz Service

A Tyre hospital on Thursday revised the number of casualties resulting from Israel's air strike on the south Lebanese village of Qana from 52 down to 28.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745828.html

Sorry Foley: even one casualty is too many (which is why Hezbollah should stop), but you were wrong yet again.

Small update on the Qana incident: Hezbollah inflated the casualty estimate.

.

Wasn't the original estimate based on the number of people (in the registry of the Red Cross) who were taking shelter there?

Given your predilection for conspiracy, I find your opinion hard to accept myself.
I take that as an admission you cannot provide any credible media source to verify your claims that Hexbollah had been previously firing rockets from Qana .
Which actually seems to be saying that Hezbollah captured the men on a cross-border attack, and that the Israelis responded by crossing the border themselves. What? You can't read?
Hmmm " across the border in southern Lebanon " that seems clear enough to me that it was a cross border raid by Israel .
Hezbollah Captures 2 Israeli Soldiers (http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html)
The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them.
Of course anyone can see that .
And no, it's not a question of source, it's a question of your ignorance, Foley. I never said I didn't accept the source.

Do read the source, old timer.
So I can say here you cannot back your mouth up .
Small update on the Qana incident: Hezbollah inflated the casualty estimate.
Haaretz uses the Human Rights Watch figures and report , ok great , now we can go to another media source The Chicag Tribune to get a better perspective .The Red Cross and Lebanese authotrities stand by their figures , as well they should afterall they pulled the bodies from the wreck .
Toll in Lebanon bombing in dispute (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0608030276aug03,1,6836386.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed)
However, the Lebanese government and the Lebanese Red Cross said they had confirmed 57 deaths in the attack and they stood by their figures after the report was released.

"It's confirmed that there are 57 bodies," said Elias Diab, an official in the Lebanese Red Cross operations room in Beirut. "Twenty-seven of them are children."
And as a note Geoffs Haaretz article uses HRW figures from their released report , so if Geoff stands by that HRW report he must also standby HRW's report claim that there was no prior Hezbollah activity in Qana .
The report said researchers who visited the Qana site found no evidence of recent Hezbollah military activity in the area and accused Israel of a "systematic failure" to distinguish between military and civilian targets in its bombing of Lebanon.
Also damning from HRW report is Israel is deliberately targeting civilinas .
"In dozens of attacks, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target," the report said. "In some cases, the timing and intensity of the attack, the absence of a military target, as well as return strikes on rescuers, suggest that Israeli forces deliberately targeted civilians."

Hmmm " across the border in southern Lebanon " that seems clear enough to me that it was a cross border raid by Israel .

Blinder and blinder.

Hezbollah Captures 2 Israeli Soldiers
The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them.

Couldn't be clearer, frankly. Across that part of the border in southern Lebanon. Israel reacts, and sends ground troops to look for them.

So I can say here you cannot back your mouth up .

No. What you can say here is that, yet again - besides lying about the translation, and then lying about the lying about the translation - that you deliberately painted an article containing arguments for both parties as an unequivocal damning of Israel.

So, par for your course.

Haaretz uses the Human Rights Watch figures and report , ok great , now we can go to another media source The Chicag Tribune to get a better perspective .The Red Cross and Lebanese authotrities stand by their figures , as well they should afterall they pulled the bodies from the wreck .

Well, HRW went to the site too.

And as a note Geoffs Haaretz article uses HRW figures from their released report , so if Geoff stands by that HRW report he must also standby HRW's report claim that there was no prior Hezbollah activity in Qana .

I must? That's odd. I don't feel I must.

Also damning from HRW report is Israel is deliberately targeting civilinas .

Which, of course, they aren't. They thought there were terrorists there.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060803/ts_nm/mideast_inquiry_dc_2

Yet, Hezbollah is deliberately targeting Israeli civilians with rocket attacks (and, prior to that, with various means), and Lebanese civilians by firing from their areas. You don't really seem to care about that. And why would you? You're not the one being fired on, after all.

Couldn't be clearer, frankly. Across that part of the border in southern Lebanon. Israel reacts, and sends ground troops to look for them.
and also launches a half scale military offensive against lebanon

Couldn't be clearer, frankly. Across that part of the border in southern Lebanon. Israel reacts,
Not to you , but Southern Lebanon is Southern Lebanon , if the supposed incident happend in Israel I imagine the correct text would read "Across that part of the border in Northern Israel" .
No. What you can say here is that, yet again - besides lying about the translation, and then lying about the lying about the translation - that you deliberately painted an article containing arguments for both parties as an unequivocal damning of Israel.
No I didnt Lie thats your perserve , you dont accept the link , fine I agreed there was the second link I provided , and evenhere on this link which is in English you are attempting to argue interpretations of the text . Im sorry it is just one of your stalling tactics , its proof you cannot present any facts to bolster your case . You did this sometime back when you kept falsely tellinh me my links were all broke , that is until 3 other posters verified they worked .
Well, HRW went to the site too.
No HRW conducted interviews with Journalists and residents of Qana HRW never went to Qana , the figure of 28 I believe was what was originally pulled from the building .
Human Rights Watch catalogues Israeli war crimes in Lebanon (http://www.asiantribune.com/index.php?q=node/1398)
Apart from survivors and Qana residents, HRW interviewed dozens of journalists, rescue workers, and international observers. Apart from survivors and Qana residents, HRW interviewed dozens of journalists, rescue workers, and international observers.
28 is their total the red cross is 54 .
Which, of course, they aren't. They thought there were terrorists there.
Sorry but you wrong
The report also produced further evidence that the Israeli military has systematically covered up and lied about its attacks on Lebanese civilians. “Human Rights Watch found no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF [Israeli Defence Force] attack,” it stated, contradicting Israeli claims. “In none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in this report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah forces or weapons were in or near the area that the IDF targeted during or just prior to the attack.”
I would like sources from you .

Not to you , but Southern Lebanon is Southern Lebanon , if the supposed incident happend in Israel I imagine the correct text would read "Across that part of the border in Northern Israel" .

Sorry, not the way the text is written.

No I didnt Lie thats your perserve , you dont accept the link , fine I agreed there was the second link I provided , and evenhere on this link which is in English you are attempting to argue interpretations of the text .

Another lie - again: first about the trans, then about lying about the trans, and now about deliberately drawing a biased conclusion from the article.

No HRW conducted interviews with Journalists and residents of Qana HRW never went to Qana , the figure of 28 I believe was what was originally pulled from the building .

HRW says they went there. Take it up with them. I believe them.

Sorry but you wrong

I wrong? I so sorry. What part Australia you from, anyway? No have verb "to be" there?

I would like sources from you .

Google it and don't be ridiculous. I recommend the first link, where the UN humanitarian chief Jan Egeland blames Hezbollah for the deaths of civilians:

“Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children,” he said. “I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don’t think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060724/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_aid

The second one is good: from the Herald Sun in Australia. It shows Hezbollah terrorists mixing in with civilians quite clearly, as the story author points out.

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.

The photographs, from the Christian area of Wadi Chahrour in the east of Beirut, were taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend.

http://www.news.com.au/sundayheraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

Also:

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20060730-093558-9976r.htm
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=17511217%26method=full%26siteid=50082% 26headline=%2dhezbollah%2dused%2dcivilians%2das%2d shields%2d%2d-name_page.html

Etc etc, ad nauseam.

Not only civilians, but of course the UN are also being used as shields, as the UN themselves point out:

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr010.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr011.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr012.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr013.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr014.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr015.pdf

They've even attacked UN troops - and close-up, with small arms (which, I point out, means you need to see your targets clearly) as opposed to long-distance attacks with rockets and bombs:

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr08.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr09.pdf

Are the civilians trying to get away? Of course. Is Hezbollah letting them?

Well, no.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278026,00.html

GeoffP:

I posted that Herald Sun article a while back but it seemed to have been forgotten to people. Thanks for recovering it :p

I read the newspaper that day and saw the pic... got my blood boiling, with all the bad media coverage Israel is getting, it was about time that the "Freedom Fighters" got a bit of it too. I mean both sides are doing some bad things, but i reckon Israel is closer to justified than Hezbollah could ever be.

note: I didn't say they were justified, just said they were closer to being just... So don't rip my head of ppl's

Please dont say anything bad about israel. They are gods chosen people and they have every right to kill children, women and men......and whatever infrastructure which support the human life in lebanon, and if they don't have that right then who does? they are the army of god and take over the world soon or atleast arab world. So no more israel bashing they are good guys and they have a right to destroy their neighbors and take whatever land the wish to take. Thank you.

so its ok for one group to kill civilians and not the other?

go slap a guy thats bigger then you in the face what would you expect him to do? give you candy OR knock you to the ground straddle your chest and pummel your face in.

567:

Please dont say anything bad about israel. They are gods chosen people and they have every right to kill children, women and men......and whatever infrastructure which support the human life in lebanon, and if they don't have that right then who does? they are the army of god and take over the world soon or atleast arab world. So no more israel bashing they are good guys and they have a right to destroy their neighbors and take whatever land the wish to take. Thank you.

I don't think its a case of not saying anything bad about Israel, but the reality is that Hezbollah is not exactly doing its best to minimize civilian casualties. Israel has tried, sometimes failed miserably, but atleast has somewhat tried. They have also tried to target legitimate targets, once again sometimes failing miserably, but atleast has somewhat tried. They have targetted infrastructure in order to halt Hezbollah's resupply lines, this has had a double edge effect when it comes to civilians, but a somewhat legitimate target.

In contrast Hezbollah, have fired rockets directly onto civilians in Israel, with the purpose of hurting civilians, they have hidden in civilian structures, purpose unknown but pretty easy to guess, they have engaged in a warfare not seen before. A warfare where by every civilian death which they help cause can be used as propaganda again Israel.

My first question is what are they trying to achieve with the rocket barrages? I can guarentee the majority of people they have targetted are not Zionist, but pure and simply jews living in Israel. If they wanted to stop zionism this is certainly the wrong way about it.

My second question is why do the feel hiding amongst civilian structures, with civilians around will help their cause? Clearly it has helped, because the people who are there who can let the people know about this atrocity, usually end up dead. Israel isn't totally in the right when it comes to its tactics, but at the end of the day its Hezbollah who shouldn't be hiding in the first place

My third question is why do Hezbollah insist on hiding in the first place? Wouldn't it be more nobler, more courageous to fight man to man against Israel? Ofcourse it would mean their destruction but they would bring honour (whatever honour can be achieved by a terrorist organisation anyway) to their cause. And hey what if they managed to win a battle or two? Kudo's for them. Atleast they have stopped hiding (P.S. I don't support Hezbollah in anyway so don't take that wrong :p)

I just think although both sides have been doing wrong things, the question is being debated who is more in the wrong. No-one here can deny that Israel has been a bit too heavy handed with tactics. But the problem is people are making the wrong assumptions about this war too quickly. Israeli bomb kills 20 people, Israel is completely in the wrong... those sorts of assumptions. Alot of people fail to look objectionally at Hezbollah. Any civilian death in war is an absolutel tragedy, but who is causing them?

Sorry, not the way the text is written.
Sorry your attempting to pick flyshit out of pepper .
Another lie - again: first about the trans, then about lying about the trans, and now about deliberately drawing a biased conclusion from the article.
OK , this is another media source which itself uses the AFP article and quotes , they use the same translation I did :
Kidnapped in Israel or Captured in Lebanon? (http://www.antiwar.com/frank/?articleid=9401)
As the AFP reported, "According to the Lebanese police force, the two Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aitaa al-Chaab, near to the border with Israel, where an Israeli unit had penetrated in middle of morning." And the French news site www.VoltaireNet.org reiterated the same account on June 18, "In a deliberated way, [Israel] sent a commando in the Lebanese back-country to Aitaa al-Chaab. It was attacked by Hezbollah, taking two prisoners."
Now you know GeoffP is lying .
HRW says they went there. Take it up with them. I believe them.
HRW never claimed anything of the sort , I want you to prove this , it is your claim .
I wrong? I so sorry. What part Australia you from, anyway? No have verb "to be" there?
Cam down Geoff its only a debate , that youare losing , you ought to be used to it by now and such inmmature displays should be a thing of the past .
Google it and don't be ridiculous. I recommend the first link, where the UN humanitarian chief Jan Egeland blames Hezbollah for the deaths of civilians:
Yeah , ah , um Geoff this same Jan Egeland blamed Israel for the carnage at first and not Hezbollah .
UN Slams Israel Over Lebanon Brutality (http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=85835&d=24&m=7&y=2006)
UN Humanitarian Emergency Relief Coordinator Jan Egeland, in Beirut to launch an urgent appeal for funds for half a million people made homeless by the conflict, made no attempt to hide his fury as he toured bombed-out areas. “This is destruction of block after block of mainly residential areas. I would say it seems to be an excessive use of force in an area with so many citizens,” he told reporters in the southern suburb of Beirut, a Hezbollah stronghold. Asked if the Israeli raid that destroyed the burned-out buildings before him constituted a war crime, he replied: “It makes it a violation of humanitarian law.”
Then some 48 hours later after a massive US and Israeli reaction to his original comments he modified it to include Hezbollah .
The second one is good: from the Herald Sun in Australia. It shows Hezbollah terrorists mixing in with civilians quite clearly, as the story author points out.
An AA gun in a city which is at the moment being bombed , and adults soldiers are sitting on it , how unusual and the secound photo that of the same picture this time up close , and the third of a guard with a machine gun and in the far distance a town on fire .



Also:

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20060730-093558-9976r.htm
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=17511217%26method=full%26siteid=50082% 26headline=%2dhezbollah%2dused%2dcivilians%2das%2d shields%2d%2d-name_page.html

Etc etc, ad nauseam.

Not only civilians, but of course the UN are also being used as shields, as the UN themselves point out:

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr010.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr011.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr012.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr013.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr014.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr015.pdf

They've even attacked UN troops - and close-up, with small arms (which, I point out, means you need to see your targets clearly) as opposed to long-distance attacks with rockets and bombs:

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr08.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr09.pdf

Are the civilians trying to get away? Of course. Is Hezbollah letting them?

Well, no.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278026,00.html
No thanks I will give the rest of your post a miss , its the shit .

Anyone here remember the Spartans? 100 or so guys held off a vastly superior Army for a couple of days and they all died in glory. They altered the course of History. Now obviously anyone here can search about the Spartans. Here is my point. If Hezbollah stood up and fought Isreal instead of hiding among civilians like a bunch of little girls then they might actually win something in the long run. Would they get stomped? Yes. But oh imagine the glory their cause would recieve! It will never happen. Hezbollah is a group of little girls.

think of all the virgins!!! If i beleived that shit i would die asap.

No thanks I will give the rest of your post a miss , its the shit .

you do understand that saying that something is "the shit" is giving it a very high compliment, right?

perhaps you meant "teh shit", which would be an insult.

Sorry your attempting to pick flyshit out of pepper .

OK , this is another media source which itself uses the AFP article and quotes , they use the same translation I did :

Sorry, still wrong. The translation given did not match the French source. Ask any francophone on here.

Or, to put it another way:

Si tu veux le donne comme point de référence, il faut que tu donnes une osti adresse URL plus spécifique.

HRW never claimed anything of the sort , I want you to prove this , it is your claim .

Why would I bother looking up the quote again? You've shown no inclination to accept evidence of any kind in my last posting. You're clearly not capable of listening to anything that contradicts your position regarding anything associated with Israel or with Judaism. You even doubted the Katyusha attacks on Israel, something that only someone living in a fantasy world would not accept. Why would I provide more evidence of something already well known?

Yeah , ah , um Geoff this same Jan Egeland blamed Israel for the carnage at first and not Hezbollah .

Did Jan Egeland claim anything of the sort? I want you to prove this , it is your claim. Also, when did he claim this? Ah, yeah, ah, um - answer below:

Then some 48 hours later after a massive US and Israeli reaction to his original comments

Utter hearsay. Prove he changed his position in response to the US and Israeli comments, and not to his impressions of the events on the spot itself.

An AA gun in a city which is at the moment being bombed , and adults soldiers are sitting on it , how unusual and the secound photo that of the same picture this time up close , and the third of a guard with a machine gun and in the far distance a town on fire .

Proof that the city was at that moment being bombed? This is your claim, you must prove it.

No thanks I will give the rest of your post a miss , its the shit .

Why thanks! It is indeed "the shit", in the modern parlance. You might have also said "the shizzat". In either event, it's a very good post.

I'm not surprised you ran from the rest of the links, though. They prove:

i) Hezbollah fires from civilian areas
ii) Hezbollah fires from UN sites
iii) Hezbollah fires on UN troops

Sorry, still wrong. The translation given did not match the French source. Ask any francophone on here.

Or, to put it another way:

Si tu veux le donne comme point de référence, il faut que tu donnes une osti adresse URL plus spécifique.
Again ! Amazing ! So the second link I use , and their translation is the same as my first source , yet he will not accept it . I told you I don’t speak French , I used the translation they provided , you are questioning the translation , do you want a third or fourth source that provides the smame translation ? And the US source , which is in English and clearly writes the raid took place in Southerrn Lebanon , he even argues that as being out of text .
Why would I bother looking up the quote again?
You never bothered to provide a quoted media source to back your claim that HRW was indeed in Qana , I clearly provided a source from HRW about Qana in which they said they never were in Qana and only conducted interviews with survivors and aid workers .
You've shown no inclination to accept evidence of any kind in my last posting.
The only evidence you have provided is from 2 rightwing blog sites where posters have placed their personal opinions in the comments where they attempt to like yourself to portray Qana as a staged Hezbollah incident .
You're clearly not capable of listening to anything that contradicts your position regarding anything associated with Israel or with Judaism.
This from a poster whose sole thread content on sciforums is 100% anti Islamicist , perhaps if you could actually provide the proof I might be convinced , however with your intellect thats impossible .
You even doubted the Katyusha attacks on Israel, something that only someone living in a fantasy world would not accept.
And now here Geoff is attempting to distort the debate , I claimed very clearly on this thread that no artillery rockets were fired from Qana , therby contradicting Israels claim of Hezbollah activity which led to the atrocity.
Why would I provide more evidence of something already well known?
Because you cannot provide evidence Geoff you have failed to back your arguments up , you are attempting to wriggle out of this debate .
Did Jan Egeland claim anything of the sort? I want you to prove this , it is your claim. Also, when did he claim this? Ah, yeah, ah, um - answer below:
Unbelievable , I provided the actual words he said , can anyone reading this debate , read below , and verify that this is what Jan Egeland actually said
UN Slams Israel Over Lebanon Brutality (http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=85835&d=24&m=7&y=2006)
BEIRUT, 24 July 2006 — The UN relief chief condemned Israel yesterday for “violating humanitarian law” over its blistering raids on Lebanon as the Jewish state killed more civilians in another wave of attacks.
UN Humanitarian Emergency Relief Coordinator Jan Egeland, in Beirut to launch an urgent appeal for funds for half a million people made homeless by the conflict, made no attempt to hide his fury as he toured bombed-out areas. “This is destruction of block after block of mainly residential areas. I would say it seems to be an excessive use of force in an area with so many citizens,” he told reporters in the southern suburb of Beirut, a Hezbollah stronghold. Asked if the Israeli raid that destroyed the burned-out buildings before him constituted a war crime, he replied: “It makes it a violation of humanitarian law.”
And here is an Israeli source :

UN aid chief says Israel has 'created a generation of hatred' (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292006828&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)
United Nations humanitarian chief Jan Egeland accused Israel on Wednesday of committing "catastrophic mistakes" in its attack on Hizbullah, which have caused civilian casualties and alienated the Lebanese public.
"It will create a generation of hatred," he said in an interview held with The Jerusalem Post after he had concluded tours of northern Israel, Gaza and Lebanon.
Utter hearsay. Prove he changed his position in response to the US and Israeli comments, and not to his impressions of the events on the spot itself. Utter hearsay. Prove he changed his position in response to the US and Israeli comments, and not to his impressions of the events on the spot itself.
Yeah , Im sure , he just changed his mind , colour me unconvinced , especially after Kofi Annan was forced to apologize for saying Israel commited a war crime in bombing the UN post .
Why thanks! It is indeed "the shit", in the modern parlance. You might have also said "the shizzat". In either event, it's a very good post.
It is indeed the shit you post .

I'm not surprised you ran from the rest of the links, though. They prove:

i) Hezbollah fires from civilian areas
ii) Hezbollah fires from UN sites
iii) Hezbollah fires on UN troops
No thanks in order for me to read them I was going to have to download a PDF licence , for which I was prompted for , but I am sure you could provide the URL links on the UN site .

Translation: GeoffP shows that Foley is wrong. Foley gets upset and refuses to read it.

wait wait....i predict foley will declare victory now, and refuse to give an inch on anything he has been schooled on.

who wants to take bets?

No thanks in order for me to read them I was going to have to download a PDF licence , for which I was prompted for , but I am sure you could provide the URL links on the UN site .

funny how i have no difficulty accessing the site. you must be lying about needing a special pdf license...i mean...if someone else can read it with no difficulties, you MUST be lying about your access, right?

Translation: GeoffP shows that Foley is wrong. Foley gets upset and refuses to read it.
Oh , God , Hahahaha wait , Foley is wrong , this from you , we are still waiting on your definite proof that there is no DU in bunker busting bombs , yeah , what was your excuse for not anteing up on that proof ? I cant because its classified by the military , LOL .

Im still waiting for your definite proof that there is no cow shit in bunker buster bombs. Besides you are the one making the accusations and as such the burden of proof is on you. Do you think you could win a court case with the 'proof' that you have provided? Hardly.

Foley: 0wned!

The Devil Inside: Just take a look at the Israeli Video Taunts Hezbollah thread, its already happened :p

Im still waiting for your definite proof that there is no cow shit in bunker buster bombs. Besides you are the one making the accusations and as such the burden of proof is on you. Do you think you could win a court case with the 'proof' that you have provided? Hardly.
You’re the one taking me to task on it I provided several links all said the bombs contained DU one link in which one an expert on atomic affairs said it contained DU . Not ONE , not one of your links even mentioned DU , that the bombs either contained DU or simply had no DU at all . Come on ante up ! In fact show your worth on this thread , seeing Geoff is incapable of providing proof over Qana you take over , or are simply just like Geoff a no show , all horn and no driveshaft . Prove Geoffs claim Qana was a staged Hezbollah publicity event , prove to me Hezbollah was firing rockets from Qana .

Foley why would they even mention D.U. if the weapon described contained no D.U. they are describing said weapon, and would have no reason to talk about something not connected to the weapon.

Im gonna go out on a limb here and say israel doesnt really care for the health of the people they are dropping BOMBS on. If DU is their biggest concern their doing pretty good.

You know I wonder where Foley gets his information. I mean is he unintentionally misreading things, intentionally misinterpreting them, or flat out lying. If we knew then perhaps we would know how to deal with him.

As to DU in bunker buster weaponry, it is certainly possible however extremely unlikely considering the mission profile. An easier, cheaper, and more effective way would be tandem charge weapons. A shape sharge that blows a hole for a HE warhead.

Regarding Qana, the Israelis admitted there were no rockets fired from Qana that day. It was however the launch site on several prior days. In fact they have video of rockets fired from Qana. There is no disputing this Foley. Israel is the victim on un provoked attacks. They are simply eliminating an ongoing threat. One that is civillians hiding among civillians. So far they are doing an admirable job limiting collateral damage.

not DU and bunker busters again please!!!

i would rather lick mpiss off a nettle than be subjected to any more posts on this boring topic

You know I wonder where Foley gets his information. I mean is he unintentionally misreading things, intentionally misinterpreting them, or flat out lying. If we knew then perhaps we would know how to deal with him.
Oh my little 30 something Star Trek fan comes back , Misreading what ? maybe you can help me then because I am yet again having one hell of time keeping Geoff on line with his proof . I am waiting on Geoff to provide me with proof of his assertion that Hezbollah staged the entire Qana incident . Even look at the pictures? The way the dead were presented? Course not; silly of me to ask if you'd think about your opinions. Thats his answer no hard facts just some outlandish claim . I imagine this ridiculous claim of Geoffs would seem plausible , but I would like an answer . And seein Geoff made a claim that the Human Rights watch visited Qana as well Well, HRW went to the site too. which they didnt so I am waiting for him to show me proof of his his claim , his answerHRW says they went there. Take it up with them. I believe them. And then the next claim of Egelund
UN's Egeland Denounces Israeli Strikes (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-07-23-UN-israel-strikes_x.htm)
USA Today - 23 Jul 2006
Then 2 Days later Mr Egeland changes his mind :
Cowardly' Hezbollah criticized (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1153779010151&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724)
The Star.com Jul. 25, 2006
See the dates ;)
Then So could you PM Geoff and ask him as favour to you to present his evidence as a favour to me hey moonbeam .
Regarding Qana, the Israelis admitted there were no rockets fired from Qana that day.
After being caught out Lying by independent observers .:
Livni: Qana attack led to turning point in support for Israel ( http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html)
It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.
The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.
It was however the launch site on several prior days. In fact they have video of rockets fired from Qana. There is no disputing this Foley.
Right from I have only claimed there was no Hezbollah activity nor rocket firing there on that day .
Israel is the victim on un provoked attacks. They are simply eliminating an ongoing threat. One that is civillians hiding among civillians.
No Hezbollah is engaging Israeli troops in the South of Lebanon , all these Lebanese civilians have been murdered by Israeli bombs being dropped on their infrastructure .
So far they are doing an admirable job limiting collateral damage.
Killing 31 Syrian fruit pickers and nearly 60 people in Qana 17 of them handicapped kids great Israel .

EU-No intent yet to add Hizbollah to terror list (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/BRU004839.htm)
RUSSELS, Aug 1 (Reuters) - The European Union does not intend to place Hizbollah on its list of terrorist organisations for the time being, EU President Finland said on Tuesday.

"Given the senstitive situtaion, I don't think this is something we will be acting on now," Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja, told a news conference following an emergency meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels.

Tuomioja's comments were in response to a letter signed by 213 members of the United States Congress sent to EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana asking that the EU add Hizbollah to its terrorist list.
Thats gotta hurt ;) , looks like Israel has really fucked itself over this Lebanon , and with America going down the economic tubes Israel is going to be in a very lonely position in a yaer or two .

(Killing 31 Syrian fruit pickers ) what were they picking pineapple hand grenades?

(Killing 31 Syrian fruit pickers ) what were they picking pineapple hand grenades?
Buffalo, how are you doing my friend

Where did this statement come from??? I'm a bit confused.

Peace

Again ! Amazing ! So the second link I use , and their translation is the same as my first source , yet he will not accept it . I told you I don’t speak French , I used the translation they provided , you are questioning the translation , do you want a third or fourth source that provides the smame translation ?

Comme on dit: tete-a-merde, as-tu jamais considere que le traduction, c'est fou au debut?

Or: sorry, chimpy - the trans was still wrong. Nothing I can help you with about that.

You never bothered to provide a quoted media source to back your claim that HRW was indeed in Qana , I clearly provided a source from HRW about Qana in which they said they never were in Qana and only conducted interviews with survivors and aid workers .

And conducted them how? By pigeon carrier?

The only evidence you have provided is from 2 rightwing blog sites where posters have placed their personal opinions in the comments where they attempt to like yourself to portray Qana as a staged Hezbollah incident .

Whatever their position on the spectrum, they have logic and insight, whereas all you have is invective and a poopy diaper. I think I'll take their view over yours. Besides, the 28 number is being accepted more uniformly now anyway, so it's pretty clear what really happened. And it isn't the only time that Hezbollah has deliberately inflated casualty estimates:

Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said Monday that one person was killed in an Israeli airstrike on the southern village of Houla, not 40 as he had earlier reported.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/07/mideast.main/index.html

In the same article: "Lebanese media reported 65 survivors were pulled from the rubble, more than half of them children. " That strikes me as a pretty strange demographic, frankly.

This from a poster whose sole thread content on sciforums is 100% anti Islamicist , perhaps if you could actually provide the proof I might be convinced , however with your intellect thats impossible .

It would indeed be impossible - or seems to be - impossible for my intellect to relate to yours. I think perhaps I see things a bit too clearly for you. Anyway, if you had tracked back your little snipe-hunt properly, you'd have seen that I comment on a variety of issues, including evolution, poetry, Israel and indeed islamofascism. And what precisely is wrong with being anti-islamicist anyway? Should I be pro-islamicist?

The proof