http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3287380,00.html
Israeli Arabs: "Finish off with Nasrallah!"

Greetings, Israeli Cyber-soldier,

How are you?

- N

Israeli Arabs?? born in Palestine and borrowed a foreign nationality! :rolleyes:

You didn't know that there were Arabs and Palestinians with Israeli citizenship? They do live in peace with the Israelis and have good jobs to boot, oh I forgot that don't go with the Anti-Israeli Line of most of the posters here.

You didn't know that there were Arabs and Palestinians with Israeli citizenship? They do live in peace with the Israelis and have good jobs to boot, oh I forgot that don't go with the Anti-Israeli Line of most of the posters here.
Israeli Arabs should be viewed as American supporters of British occupation in the days of the Revolution. Not too tough to sort that one out.

You didn't know that there were Arabs and Palestinians with Israeli citizenship? They do live in peace with the Israelis and have good jobs to boot, oh I forgot that don't go with the Anti-Israeli Line of most of the posters here.

Buffalo where do you get your information? :D

I swear your ignorance is so abysmal its almost funny.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4493525.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism#Anti-Arabism_in_Israel

Personnel knowledge, in the Officer exchange program with the Israelis the sent two to my unit to training us in Israeli tank tactics over 3 years, as for ignorance Sam you are not doing so well your self, a little to much gossip taken as fact.

as for ignorance Sam you are not doing so well your self, a little to much gossip taken as fact.

Ignorance? Gossip? Ah yes, we're supposed to believe one person, you, who babbles on about "military experience" when numerous media sources state otherwise?

Gossip? Heh. You've shown no proof other than "trust me", yet you complain about so-called gossip? LoL!

- N

ZNet |Israel/Palestine | Israel’s Citizenship Law To Be Renewed
Over 100000 Palestinians have received Israeli citizenship since the Oslo Accords were signed. Only twenty of these people have been engaged in acts of ...
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=7630

Solving the Palestinian/Israeli Conflict: Free Muslims Coalition
As proof that this solution can work is the fact that Israel has one million Palestinians with Israeli citizenship and they are not demonstrating, ...
http://www.freemuslims.org/issues/israel-palestine.php

Palestinians Who Cling to Israel - article by Daniel Pipes
To stop this Palestinian Arab rush for Israeli citizenship, the ranking Islamic official in Jerusalem issued an edict prohibiting it, and the Palestine ...
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2737

Not that I doubt the overall information, just your source. Try something a bit more credible.

- N

Arab MK: Israel world's most racist state
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3248807,00.html

Arabs lose Israeli terror stipend
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4198754.stm

6-5 Majority of Supreme Court Approves Most Racist Law in State of Israel
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4717.shtml

Just a question...

Experience counts for nothing in this forum?

I mean sam, in another thread you stated that in your experience with the indian army, they release legal documents themselves... etc etc

If we take Buffalo as an honest individual, and to be honest he's more trustworthy than alot of other people that are here, then we should accept what he says.

Everyone has experienced alot, everyone has experienced something that might contradict what another person says, and in my opinion, Experience is the most credible bit of information you can have.

Just a question...

Experience counts for nothing in this forum?

I mean sam, in another thread you stated that in your experience with the indian army, they release legal documents themselves... etc etc

If we take Buffalo as an honest individual, and to be honest he's more trustworthy than alot of other people that are here, then we should accept what he says.

Everyone has experienced alot, everyone has experienced something that might contradict what another person says, and in my opinion, Experience is the most credible bit of information you can have.

Experience does not indicate absence of bias, bigotry or self-delusion.

Do you mean to say his experience is more credible than the racist marriage laws?

Yes but experience helps in forming an opinion that is much more credible than reading opinion, newstext or anything else on the internet. Its all hearsay.

I'm just saying that experience is the only really credible thing you can have.

What does marriage laws have to do with anything?

Yes but experience helps in forming an opinion that is much more credible than reading opinion, newstext or anything else on the internet. Its all hearsay.

No its not. You might be biased or mistaken or even be made a fool of by manipulative people or just by plain circumstance.

I'm just saying that experience is the only really credible thing you can have.

It's not. Your experience is subjective. It is affected by internal and external factors unique to the situation in which you find yourself. It may be a controlled experience because you don't know if the people around you are expressing their true opinions or are acting or do not trust you enough to confide their true feelings to you. The most consistent face of evil is that it is banal and indistinguishable from the loving father and the conscientous officer. Look at the Nazis.

You might want to read the book by Hannah Arendt on this subject.


What does marriage laws have to do with anything?

Are you following the discussion?

I wasn't following the discussion, i was merely pointing out something that was said

You were able to cite experience as evidence in another thread, so why can't BR?

So lets go by what you say for a second. Experience is subjective. A journalist, reporter or whomever experiences something, they write this something down in the form of a news article, opinion piece etc etc, This then faces editing, which then goes out to the masses.

So at the end of the day if you say that experience is not credible enough, then just about everything that anybody links on here is not. You see my point?

I wasn't following the discussion, i was merely pointing out something that was said

You were able to cite experience as evidence in another thread, so why can't BR?

So lets go by what you say for a second. Experience is subjective. A journalist, reporter or whomever experiences something, they write this something down in the form of a news article, opinion piece etc etc, This then faces editing, which then goes out to the masses.

So at the end of the day if you say that experience is not credible enough, then just about everything that anybody links on here is not. You see my point?

So you believe all media is unbiased and accurate?

That all journalists are same?

Reputation is acquired by accuracy and integrity which are based on objective reporting on facts regardless of subjective feelings. One who chooses to believe news that support his bias and disregards those that oppose it is not, in my opinion a reliable reporter.

In the same way, the "experience" of two Israeli Arabs employed in the Israeli military are not representative of the discrimination faced by thousands of Israeli Arabs in Israel and citing them as an experience makes no sense to me.

I'm not saying experience is not important, but it cannot replace facts

If you base your judgement on experience alone rather than facts, you will get nothing but disappointment and disillusionment.

No i don't think media is unbiased and accurate...

I'm just extrapolating from you comment that experience is not credible, that all media, human rights groups etc etc, reports are not credible either. Probably even more so.

The experience of the two Israeli Arabs, is just that. Two of them. But it cites evidence that there are a number of Israeli Arabs who are somewhat happy, i do not think BR was trying to discredit a number of Arabs who might be oppressed for whatever reason. It was just a bit of information that he passed on stating that their are a number of peaceful/happy Israeli Arabs.

What is wrong with that?

Methinks you are making it something more than it actually is

No i don't think media is unbiased and accurate...

I'm just extrapolating from you comment that experience is not credible, that all media, human rights groups etc etc, reports are not credible either. Probably even more so.

The experience of the two Israeli Arabs, is just that. Two of them. But it cites evidence that there are a number of Israeli Arabs who are somewhat happy, i do not think BR was trying to discredit a number of Arabs who might be oppressed for whatever reason. It was just a bit of information that he passed on stating that their are a number of peaceful/happy Israeli Arabs.

What is wrong with that?

Methinks you are making it something more than it actually is


I wish you would at least read the thread.

This is what Buffalo said:

"You didn't know that there were Arabs and Palestinians with Israeli citizenship? They do live in peace with the Israelis and have good jobs to boot, oh I forgot that don't go with the Anti-Israeli Line of most of the posters here."

Yes he said that there were Arabs and Palestinians with ISraeli citizenship, that they do live in peace etc etc... Some people on this thread wouldn't agree with that.

A simple truth... what is wrong with that?

And this is the marriage law:

" Today, 14 May 2006, a majority of the Supreme Court of Israel, in a split of 6-5 Justices, issued a 263-page decision in which it dismissed a petition filed by Adalah, and six other petitions joined by the Court to the petition, including a petition filed by the Association for Civil Rights in Israel. The petitions demanded the annulment of the Nationality and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order) 2003, which violates the right of Israeli citizens to family unification with their Palestinian spouses from the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPTs)

In its response to the decision, Adalah pointed out that, on this day, the Supreme Court effectively approved the most racist legislation in the State of Israel; legislation which bars the unification of families on the basis of national belonging: Arab-Palestinian. Drawing a comparison, Adalah added that, “In 1980, during Apartheid, a Court in South Africa refused to approve orders similar to the Nationality and Entry into Israel Law, because they contradicted the right to a family.” Adalah’s General Director Attorney Hassan Jabareen emphasized that today, the Supreme Court has instituted three tracks of citizenship on the basis of ethnic background: a direct track for Jews under the Law of Return; a middle track for foreigners according to the graduated procedure; and the harshest track, for Arab citizens.

The law denies Palestinian Citizens of Israel the right to acquire any status in Israel for their spouses from the OPTs solely on the basis of their national belonging. Since the enactment of the law, it has forced thousands of affected families to separate, live outside of Israel, or live illegally within Israel under constant risk of arrest and deportation. "


And this is their policy of apartheid:

Apartheid
Whether they reside in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, or in Israel, Palestinians are discriminated against in a variety of forms and denied equal individual rights on the grounds of their descent, national and ethnic origin. These policies and practices of segregation and domination bear striking similarities to those adopted in apartheid-era South Africa, and its illegal occupation of Namibia.

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/149.shtml

And?

I ultimately don't care about the issue. What i care about is when people try to either read too much into what someone says, or completely blows the comment out of proportion. I think you are doing that with me too...

BR said that there are arabs with israeli citizenship, that they do have jobs, etc etc, he cited two experiences he had as reference. And i'm going to speculate here, but probably cited them because they were good references...

What is wrong with stating a truth? It might not be a whole representation of the situation over there but it is a truth none the less...

I couldn't care less about the issue being talked about, It just seemed however that you were quick to dismiss BR's comment just because it doesn't fit with your view. I don't think you should ignore examples like that. Sure there are laws and unhappy arabs there, but there are clearly some who are quite the opposite. Can we accept that as fact and leave it?

I'm just saying that experience is the only really credible thing you can have.

As you say, experience is the only credible thing you can have.. but not everyone else. ;)

Experience is fine and dandy, just good luck having other's believe you unless you have some other reference to back-up that experience, otherwise we just gotta blindly trust you, ya know? In other words, no different than unofficial blogs and whatnot which most people don't find to be hugely credible to use in a discussion, even if what stated may be 100% truth.

- N

Neildo:

Oh no don't get me wrong, i'm not saying people should trust blindly someones experience. But ultimately if experience is not credible then what the hell is? that was my question. Reference in most cases is someone elses experience, so what makes their experience credible aswell? See my point?

In this case i pretty much witnessed someone shrugging off someone elses experience but at the same time elsewhere cite their own experience as evidence. Just a bit hypocritical that is all.

Reference in most cases is someone elses experience, so what makes their experience credible as well? See my point?

The credibility of the person. It's kind of why people trust an accredited BBC journalist's experience over an amateur article on someone's MySpace page. ;)

Not to mention people on forums such as these can be annonymous and make up their past experiences. At least news agencies have to state who's who, and are official

- N

If I was blowing smoke, the military people on the site would know, that is one of the things about being in the military is that you know the difference between wantabes and people who have been there, That is one of the reasons why on weapon systems I can find a lot of the esoteric information, is because I know the right word to give Google to go to the information, and can also tell when a so called expert with a degree in a unrelated field is full of shit, most of these weapon systems are out growths, of the systems I helped bring on line through out the 70 and 80, one example is the constant reference to Hezbullah missiles, Hezbullah isn't using missiles, they are using Katushia and Frogs ( Free Rocket Over Ground ) rockets, and the flight profile and time of flight make shooting them down almost imposable, besides the fact that they come at you in groups 12 to 24 rockets at a time, and that is from a single launcher, now put two or three of these launchers together in a barrage, systems become over whelmed, the reason that the anti missile systems works is the time of flight of a guided missile, it allows acquisition, tracking, counter launch, and interception, you pick up a guided missile as it comes over the horizon at the edge of space, rockets never leave atmosphere and most never rise above a altitude of 20, 000 ft, they fly a parabolic path to their target, this allow for anti mortar radar to compute for a launch point and fire counter battery but they cannot intercept the rocket of mortar rounds in flight, they only can hope to get the launcher and crew.

In this case i pretty much witnessed someone shrugging off someone elses experience but at the same time elsewhere cite their own experience as evidence. Just a bit hypocritical that is all.

An experience with a specific protocol (which I clearly stated and which may not be the same worldwide and can be refuted as such if it is not) is not the same as the experience of 2 employed men applied to a whole population a large portion of whom have been refugees for the better part of a half century.

Sam I had the honor of drinking with these men, they followed their religious compunctions and I followed mine, the C.C. was fine, I ask question of them about their live and how they dealt with the situation and they answered the questions with honesty, there were thing they didn't like with the system, but, they also said the solution was peace with Israel, that the Palestinians should use the money they received to take care of their people first and stop worrying about the war with Israel, that if they would work with Israel they would have been light years ahead of the rest of the middle east but also would have had a home land 50 years ago, they told me how the rest of the Arab world had treated the Palestinians and just used them for a excuse to divert the attention from their own failures, so they made their own peace and have never look backed, One at the time was a Captain, the other was a Lieutenant.

So what are they doing for the thousands of Palestinian refugees?

Or have they made their "peace" with that too?

And what did they think of the Wall? And of Israeli soldiers going into the houses of Palestinians and taking away their children (boys mostly 12-18) away for 18 hours and beating them up and bringing them back? Did they make their peace with that too? Such men disgust me.

samcdkey, the hyperbole of the Arabs knows no bounds, proof please, I have posted information on at least a million Palestinian and Arabs who have realized that peace and citizenship with Israel is better than war as a stateless person under the Arabs, at least their children didn't become dead martyrs as suicide bombers, and by now they may themselves be in the military or other business inside Israel. Isn't that what you want the children to grow up and have a chance, Israeli, Palestinian, Arab? or never forgive, never forget, never have peace, become a endless parade of martyrs to Allah to die as a use less Hero? And no I don't know what they think of the Wall as I haven't been in contact with them for 25 years, all I can tell you is my experience with them, then.

ps: why should they disgust you, their children grew up, with a future, they themselve prove that Israeli and Palistinan can live together to the bennifit of both peoples.

Why don't you get in touch with your friends and ask them directly.

As it were you will not believe anything else.

And I do not use Arab media for my research.

Sam if you would pay attention this was 25 years ago,


ps: why should they disgust you, their children grew up, with a future, they themselve prove that Israeli and Palistinan can live together to the bennifit of both peoples.

Sam if you would pay attention this was 25 years ago,


ps: why should they disgust you, their children grew up, with a future, they themselve prove that Israeli and Palistinan can live together to the bennifit of both peoples.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/isrlpa12224.htm

Of course I don't expect you to read or believe this.

I'm pretty sure you will come up with a justification for everything, judging from your previous remarks.

And I'm not surprised that an American places greater value on self-interest than on patriotism. It is the culture of the US- every man for himself alone.

samcdkey , have the Palistinans tried a true peace?

I see you read very very fast since not even 10 minutes have elapsed between posts.

edit: I wonder if you even realised that this report was just for the 2005 -2006 period.

Arab MK: Israel world's most racist state
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3248807,00.html

Arabs lose Israeli terror stipend
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4198754.stm

6-5 Majority of Supreme Court Approves Most Racist Law in State of Israel
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4717.shtml

1) you're taking hyperbole as fact
2) some of those sources, particularly the last one are beyond biased
3) Israeli Arabs have more rights in Israel than other Arabs have in their Arab countries
4) Israeli Arabs are not obliged but indeed do join the Israeli army and often die and kill while serving
5) many Arabs are even staunch supporters of Israel. here are 2 as an example, but there are more (google them up):
- Azzam Azzam
- Ishmael Khaldi
6) there are several "affirmative action" programs in Israel towards the Arab sector (look it up)
7) there are many cab drivers in Canada who used to be physicists and scientists and programers in India / Pakistan. they simply can't get jobs here, although young non-brown, non-recent-immigrant, university graduates with no experience are hired all the time... does that mean that Canada is systematically racist as a country and people towards Indians and Pakistanis? i doubt that, and i'm sure you'll agree... the same goes for Israel and Israeli Arabs

if you look at recent Israeli victims, you'll see that many of them are Arab. that makes sense since over 20% in Israel is Arab... so considering Hizb are shooting relatively indescriminantly, they have a 1-in-5 chance to hit an Arab person

if you look at recent Israeli victims, you'll see that many of them are Arab. that makes sense since over 20% in Israel is Arab... so considering Hizb are shooting relatively indescriminantly, they have a 1-in-5 chance to hit an Arab person

Do you claim that Israeli Arabs are treated equally in Israel?

"equal" thats such a broad word! what the hell does that even mean?

i mean, technically, Indians and Pakistanis are "equal" in Canada, but obviously they are not.

considering the situation in the Middle East Arabsare treated very well.. both by the government/laws and by the citizens. especially considering that some of their extreme element (which does not represent the majority -- and this isn't just PC-speak) rejoice at a suicide bombing.

any discriminant treatment by the laws is minimal - and is very liberal considering the history, threats, and circumstances... what i'm saying is that they are not "unequal".

when I lived in Israel, before the 2nd intifada, as a boy with my dad we used to shop for food, shoes, clothes, and other stuff in Arab villages in Israel... they were always very nice, and so were we.

the media makes it look much worse than it is.

-- i just remembered- some Arabs serve as ambassadors of Israel!!! (e.g. Ali Yahya to Finland)

Why are they not allowed to buy land? And why do they not have right of return?

And what was the reason for the marriage law where they were separated from spouses who were Palestinians?

edit: also what is the reason for the Wall, since it cuts off access to agricultural lands which were a source of livelihood to Palestinians? Doesn't unemployment and starvation produce more suicide bombers? What can Israel hope to achieve with it?

And what about the 2000+ incursions into Gaza in 2005 alone? with over 600 children dead? What does this achieve?

If you can explain these to me maybe I can understand the position better.

* buy land - as far as i know the state owns most of the land - to prevent a situation where any citizen can buy land which could build up to a security situation because clearly this can be exploited by foreign agents. Jews too can't buy most land as far as i know

* right of return - this is a Jewish concept. the official stand is that Jews are the original inhabitants. and only they can return. besides, many countries have far more discriminatory immigration policies.

* marriage laws - similar to above point. re: marriage laws, Japan has it much worse - it is much more discriminating against non-Japanese nationals. also you have to take into account Israel's security and demography interests

i can't imagine any other country facing the same threats as Israel having as liberal laws as Israel has. it's very fine for, for example, Sweden to tout liberalism and no-border policy... but they are facing no threats! not security-wise, not demography-wise... nothing!

speaking of tightening up the borders, some countries in Europe are either planning or have implemented policies in restricting immigration from Middle East and North Africa ... Israel is in good company :)

-------
i was purposly waiting for the most obvious argument till the end so you hear all the other good arguments
look at the countries in the Middle East - look at their policies/laws and private citizens...

equality? tolerance? more like "Jews are illegal"
some countries it's not as bad but Jews are severely restricted. you can do the research yourself

What do you mean not to buy land, and right of return, they are Israeli nationals, they have all the rights of a Israeli citizen, who should have the right of return, and return to were?

edit: also what is the reason for the Wall, since it cuts off access to agricultural lands which were a source of livelihood to Palestinians? Doesn't unemployment and starvation produce more suicide bombers? What can Israel hope to achieve with it?

And what about the 2000+ incursions into Gaza in 2005 alone? with over 600 children dead? What does this achieve?

If you can explain these to me maybe I can understand the position better

wall = 9% of the barrier. the rest is a fence.
the reason is obvious - security.

the reason for incursions? Israel has [probably illegaly] kicked out Jews from Gaza - evacuated its soldiers, and have left as a gift the local infrastructure to "Palestinians"

for nothing in return

the answer for this was more terror. laucnhing of Qassams (just like Hizb are launching their rockets now) and suicide bombings. so you gotta go in there and make them stop it.

* buy land - as far as i know the state owns most of the land - to prevent a situation where any citizen can buy land which could build up to a security situation because clearly this can be exploited by foreign agents. Jews too can't buy most land as far as i know

How can buying land lead to a security situation? Isn't a man more likely to defend a land he owns rather than one he is not allowed to buy?

* right of return - this is a Jewish concept. the official stand is that Jews are the original inhabitants. and only they can return. besides, many countries have far more discriminatory immigration policies.


As against those who have actually lived there for generations spanning thousands of years?

* marriage laws - similar to above point. re: marriage laws, Japan has it much worse - it is much more discriminating against non-Japanese nationals. also you have to take into account Israel's security and demography interests

And this law improves security and demographic interests? :confused:

i can't imagine any other country facing the same threats as Israel having as liberal laws as Israel has. it's very fine for, for example, Sweden to tout liberalism and no-border policy... but they are facing no threats! not security-wise, not demography-wise... nothing!


And I cannot imagine how having such laws, it can still claim to be liberal.

speaking of tightening up the borders, some countries in Europe are either planning or have implemented policies in restricting immigration from Middle East and North Africa ... Israel is in good company :)

Yes, I remember they turned away Jews running from Nazi Germany or returned them, forcing them to die in concentration camps. Is that what you mean by good company?

-------
i was purposly waiting for the most obvious argument till the end so you hear all the other good arguments
look at the countries in the Middle East - look at their policies/laws and private citizens...

equality? tolerance? more like "Jews are illegal"
some countries it's not as bad but Jews are severely restricted. you can do the research yourself

So Israel's aim to reach standards established by umm, say, Saudi Arabia?

i have to study for my exam so i will answer some of ur questions tomorrow.

wall = 9% of the barrier. the rest is a fence.
the reason is obvious - security.

the reason for incursions? Israel has [probably illegaly] kicked out Jews from Gaza - evacuated its soldiers, and have left as a gift the local infrastructure to "Palestinians"

for nothing in return

the answer for this was more terror. laucnhing of Qassams (just like Hizb are launching their rockets now) and suicide bombings. so you gotta go in there and make them stop it.

So what exactly is the problem right now?

Why is there such a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza? I heard the only electric(?) tower was blown up by the IDF and that there is a severe shortage of food, water, and medical supplies. Also that starvation is very rampant and severe.
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/PressR/English/2006/34-2006.htm

i have to study for my exam so i will answer some of ur questions tomorrow.

Ok all the best.

If the Palestinians end the fighting they will end the starvation, if they make real peace they will end the dieing, if they put the money they have into building infrastructure instead of weapons of war, they will have electricity, what is so hard to understand about that?

If the Palestinians end the fighting they will end the starvation, if they make real peace they will end the dieing, if they put the money they have into building infrastructure instead of weapons of war, they will have electricity, what is so hard to understand about that?
Of course it's all in Arabs' hands, especially since Israel gave them land for nothing in return, or better yet, they got more terrorists attacks in return.