Israel's policy has been for some years now to hold off its Arab nations with two powers: its submarine-delivered nuclear missiles and the military might of the United States. Jews and Muslims know their faiths are incompatible and that one alone can rule the Middle East.


An intelligent policy for Israel would be to admit that only ethnic Jews belong in Israel, and to exclude all others and cease trying to influence broader policy in the region. This contradicts the Western mandate of multiculturalism and would make Israel an obvious "bad guy" according to centuries of Judeo-Christian thought, so this cannot be publically admitted. A grotesque compromise results.


When Muslims look at the United States, they see a country that elects exclusively church-going leaders. They see a right wing dominated by radical Christian interests, and a left predominantly financed and driven by radical Jewish interests. They see AIPAC, the American-Israeli Political Action Committee, be accused of stealing state secrets and executing phone taps, and no vast action being taken.

http://www.corrupt.org/articles/israel/


I have my doubts there is a solution that both:

(a) works
(b) will be accepted by Western leaders.

I find this dismaying. More will die, nothing will change!

This contradicts the Western mandate of multiculturalism

this multi-culti crap has only come in the last several decades. at the time of Israel's creation, and especially in the few decades prior, countries tended to be more homogenous and nationalistic, which is why Israel's "raison d'etre" was nothing unusual - it's what other countries were like at the time. with time those countries have changed because of laws re: refugees were changed in a post-WW2 world to prevent a situation where refugees that were running away from genocide were being turned away at borders. this change has been made pretty much exclusively because of the Nazi Holocaust...
most countries have refused entry to any Jewish refugees at the time... even here in Canada
there's a famous story about a ship wit Jewish refugees escaping Germany, floating for weaks from country to country and repeatedly being refused entry so its passengers may seek asylum. when the ship came to Canada and Canada refused, the passengers said "maybe you can accept only a few?" and the PM at the time (Mackenzie King?) answered with his famous line "none is too many"

so after WW2 countries came out with new rules for war (Geneva Conventions), and new rules for handling refugees

ironically these same laws have changed the face of the Western world in such a way that is against Israel's interests... it is so because now you can't just be a nation-state.... you gotta be multicultural...
the West is multicultural, so obviously it is the best way. countries which aren't multicultural are probably racist...

the idea today of a pure nation-state is not very PC, despite being a recent idea - but let me assure you, there is nothing wrong with it, as it's been the model of countries for millenia

however if you look at Israeli demographics you will be surprised to see that there are Jews from all over the world - all with their own cultures and baggage from their country of birth. you've got European Jews (Eastern and Western) with their inner differences, Iranian / Arab Jews, Ethiopian Jews, North American Jews... then you've got the different sects of Judaism (orthodox / conservative / "kippa sruga"), some are non-observant...

then you've got the non-Jewish population:
Druze, Christian Arabs, Muslim Arabs, the Bedouin, the Orthodox Church, Armenian / Greek... many other communities which are unique to Israel because it's the Holy Land...

there are also the foreign workers (Thailand, African countries, China ...)

on a recent visit to Israel of Aboriginal leaders from Canada they said that they were shocked to see how multi-cultural it was - they had no idea

everybody lives in relative harmony - despite the fact that there are always provacations from terrorist motherfuckers.

---
all that Israelis want is that a Jewish government (NOT a religious one) will be in charge, to maintain the Jewish character of the state, because there is no other country like this on earth - a country that will protect Jewish interest. this is nothing unreasonable if you ignore the recent PC developments of multi-culti. this was every country's mandate up to a few decades ago, before borders were opened in masses to other peoples and refugees...

Unfortunately most of the middle east countries don't know much about Israeli society. They only know what their media tells them. And Arab media is always anti-Israeli to the point it demonizes the jews and everyone in Israel.

they don't particularly care about multiculturalism in Israel... they don't even think of it as a positive thing as it is thought of in the West.
for them, a good Jew is a dead Jew - be it a multiculutral, nationalist, religious, secular, living here, living there..... it doesn't matter

The Jews are Within Their Ancient Right to Take What Is Their's.
While The Poor Miserable Palestinians Are Left To Fend For Themselves.
I See Total Annialation of Both These Races In The Battles Ahead Where A New Middle East will be Forged From The Ruins Of Their Wasteful Wars. One That Is Planned By Those Who Stage The Global Theatre Of Destruction.

So I assume you are some prophet of end times or something?..

He's got the avatar for it...

his post sounds like an intro from Warcraft 3 (http://www.blizzard.com/war3/)

When Muslims look at the United States, they see a country that elects exclusively church-going leaders. They see a right wing dominated by radical Christian interests, and a left predominantly financed and driven by radical Jewish interests.Then for a people who are still killing each other over things that happened 1,200 years ago, they are awfully impatient with the pace at which someone else's history is unfolding. Most of this is quite recent and many of us see it as fundamentalist Christianity's last burst of desperate energy before it fades away. Just thirty years ago it seemed like America was throwing off the Abrahamic religions except as fully secularized cultural motifs. Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny were the extent of its intrusion into the lives of many "Christian" Americans, and most "Jewish" Americans were busy assimilating. This "born again" crap came up at about the same time as disco and it will be only slightly less transitory. Ditto for the current infatuation with Orthodox Judaism.

And Jews are abandoning the "left" moving to the "right" en masse. Someone simply is not paying attention.They see AIPAC, the American-Israeli Political Action Committee, be accused of stealing state secrets and executing phone taps, and no vast action being taken.America's love affair with Israel is perhaps more genuine, but still it's less than sixty years old. We became spiritually united with Europe during WWII, so we shared their collective guilt over thousands of years of antisemitism... that never reached the draconian level worthy of inspiring that guilt on these shores. Many Americans are getting pretty damn impatient with Israel, many more are thinking it just has no relevance to us in a post-Cold War world, and the rest just don't have the attention span to hang onto this romance very much longer.

If the Muslims can't see this or don't understand it, then they must be brainwashed even worse than our people.

The story of the refugees that were turned away is recorded in a book "Ship of Fools" that was made into a very good movie,
Te Geneva Rules existed before WWII.

If the Muslims can't see this or don't understand it, then they must be brainwashed even worse than our people.

yup.

...Many Americans are getting pretty damn impatient with Israel, many more are thinking it just has no relevance to us in a post-Cold War world,....I hope so on both points, but am 99% sure the second ("no relevance") is 100% wrong. See my recent post in the "Oil at $200 a barrel" thread of this forum to understand why Israel's US supported actions may very soon send US into "armed gang chaos."

The concept of ethnicly "pure" or even predominant states belongs in the past. Israel cannot peacefully persist, nor can any state persist in the future that is founded on principles of ethnic separatism. Zionism and all forms of ethnic separatism simply have no future, and all that transpires in the meantime is collective insanity. Jews don't get an exclusive state in a more just and orderly world. Neither can Muslims or Mormons or Moonies.

Israel is morally forfeited.

Israel as an ethnically pure state would be morally forfeited.
Israel as a liberal democracy would not.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3273263,00.html

Curious how you let the ethnic predominance part just slip by there, Zephyr. Only an insignificant detail, right? Still, the omission makes me wonder: Imagine the Northeastern USA suddenly replaced by a liberal, democratic Homeland for the Catholics named Catholica (where previously landed and wealthy Jews would be forced to abandon their properties for refugee camps in neighboring countries). Would you consider such a development as morally kosher?

Curious how you let the ethnic predominance part just slip by there, Zephyr. Only an insignificant detail, right?

Ah, so any country with a majority of X type of people is morally forfeited?

I live in a country ethnically dominated by black people but with a white minority. What should we do - join the EU to even things out?

By all means, dissolve the world's states and institute a world government. (That won't entirely solve the problem: there may be slightly more Asians than the desirable average but we'll let that slip since the alternative 'trimming' of populations would be unethical.) If it works, I'll post a picture of cake in congratulations ;)

Imagine the Northeastern USA suddenly replaced by a liberal, democratic Homeland for the Catholics named Catholica (where previously landed and wealthy Jews would be forced to abandon their properties for refugee camps in neighboring countries). Would you consider such a development as morally kosher?

Assuming the lack of a world government - well, if a third of the world's Catholic population had just been wiped out, and a bunch of refugees (having lost their homes and barred from immigrating to most other countries) were allowed to immigrate into north-eastern USA by an occupying power, where they bought land from absentee landlords thereby pissing off the local peasant landed-and-wealthy-Jews population, who then went on riots and killed civilians, and guerilla groups rose and commited atrocities on both sides, and the UN decided on a partition plan which left the Catholics with an indefensible border, which it accepted anyway, leading to internal civil war which led to the expulsion and fleeing of the landed-and-wealthy-Jews population who had been launching guerilla attacks from their villages. Then surrounding US states (who had rejected the plan) inavade and attack it, etc...

Well, I wouldn't exactly call that morally kosher/halaal/suitable for Lent, but I'd say the whole situation is just a tad too complicated to blame one side exclusively, wouldn't you?

"I'd say the whole situation is just a tad too complicated to blame one side exclusively, wouldn't you?"

I don't blame any one side for allowing Zionism to run amok. I have not advocated any "world government" as a solution. I have only observed that ethnic separatism breeds conflict, and is therefore unworkable.

I thought you were saying ethnic predominance is unworkable. The only solution I could think of for that is a world government. Either that or forced population transfer to even out the distribution of various ethnicities.

Curious how you let the ethnic predominance part just slip by there, Zephyr.

It's easy to be misunderstood on this topic. Of course ethnic distributions remain. It's when a nation decides to impose ethnic predominance where it did not exist before that peaceful living becomes impossible.

I don't think the solution will come from a higher power. It will come when Zionism is recognized as a similar malignancy to white separatism for example.

I don't think the solution will come from a higher power. It will come when Zionism is recognized as a similar malignancy to white separatism for example.

You think so? The UN passed a resolution equating Zionism with racism, sponsored by the USSR as an obvious jab at a US proxy in the Cold War. What did this achieve? Israel saw the UN as an enemy bent on its destruction and refused to consider UN-negotiated peace deals for decades. It was the ultimate in non-constructive criticism, labelling Israel in its entirety as evil without providing it any path for change. (Not to mention the obvious hypocrisy in neglecting resolutions for countries like Malaysia which have racism codified into their laws.)

There's racism in America. Does that mean the American Dream is racism? How will 'recognising' that help? Zionism is similarly a broad term. Narrowly categorising it is a great way to alienate people, though.

http://headheeb.blogmosis.com/archives/015236.html

"There can be no denying that certain threads of Zionist philosophy are racist - all it takes is one look at the Hebron settlers to prove that. However, all this shows is that any ideology can be corrupted. The United States, for instance, has been guilty, during its history, of racist acts much more severe than anything Israel has dreamed of committing. However, this does not mean that the United States is a racist nation or that American ideals are racist. In fact, the American ideals of freedom, equality and fairness are a great deal of the reason why the United States has come so far in overcoming its racial heritage.

Zionism - the right kind of Zionism - will do the same thing for Israel. In fact, it already has. The ideals of Labor Zionism are the reason the Arabs in Israel after 1948 became citizens rather than South African-style subjects. These same ideals were seen again during the "olive wars" this fall, when groups of Israeli and American Jews protected Palestinian olive growers from attacks by the wrong kind of Zionists - West Bank settlers. These Jews were not left-wing activists or opponents of Israel, and the reason they gave for protecting the Palestinian farmers was that "it was the Zionist thing to do." This kind of Zionism was also seen when Amram Mitzna, as mayor of Haifa, stated that he would block the deportation of Arabs from the West Bank with his own body, and when the police chief of Hadera responded to an attack on Arabs at a beach picnic by attending the next picnic himself. They didn't do these things in spite of being Zionists, but because they were Zionists. This is Amram Mitzna's kind of Zionism, Amos Oz' kind of Zionism - my kind of Zionism. The kind that looks forward to cooperation on the basis of equality and dignity rather than dwelling endlessly upon past hatreds and present revenge."

Because of anger over Lebanon (I grew up there) I am having some difficulty staying level-headed on this topic. Still I think that Israel has more against it than the present USA in terms of being defined as a politically isolated separatist state. Even with sweeping reforms, Israel would remain a foreign body in the Mideast. I would like to see Israeli Arabs allowed to buy land in Israel, and for dispossessed Arabs to be compensated for the "Nakba". But even with such dramatic moves toward pluralism, Israel would remain in name a state for one ethnicity. In name or in practice, it won't work. Arabs and Jews in the Levant will never prosper through separatism, but will only move forward into normal progress after reconciliation through gradual voluntary integration- just as we have been learning in the USA.

"
When Muslims look at the United States, they see a country that elects exclusively church-going leaders."

Name one Arab leader who doesnt go to mosques.

When Americans look at the Arab States, they see countries that elect exclusively mosque-going leaders.

How are you going to complain about the US when the majority of the leaders in the ME are dictators/kings or Religious crazies. Look in the mirror before you complain.

Religious alignments are only part of a veneer. The converging, escalating conflicts of the Mideast are about coveted earthly resources, and about universally human obsessions involving personalized/nationalized power. The religious wrappers are interchangeable and meaningless distractions from the issues.

Name one Arab leader who doesnt go to mosques.

Name one Arab leader who invaded the US to bring "democracy" :p

Sam,

Arab leaders would never invade for democracy. They would invade to bring a Theocracy...or as I like to say a Theocrazy....

The term theocracy is commonly used to describe a form of government in which a religion or metaphysical faith plays the dominant role. It refers to a form of government in which the organs of the religious sphere replace or dominate the organs of the political sphere as clerical or spiritual representative(s) of god(s).
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Word history
* 2 Introduction
o 2.1 Ecclesiocracy & Hierocracy
* 3 History of the concept
* 4 Current states with theocratic aspects
o 4.1 Iran
o 4.2 Saudi Arabia
o 4.3 Israel
o 4.4 Norway
o 4.5 The Vatican
o 4.6 Religious communities
* 5 Historical theocracies
* 6 Parties and movements with theocratic aspects
* 7 See also
* 8 Notes
* 9 Sources and external links

LOL looks like 2 peas in a pod...

Sam,

Arab leaders would never invade for democracy. They would invade to bring a Theocracy...or as I like to say a Theocrazy....

Most Arab governments are dictatorships that use religion to further their objectives and control the people. I would not call them theocracies.

The term theocracy is commonly used to describe a form of government in which a religion or metaphysical faith plays the dominant role. It refers to a form of government in which the organs of the religious sphere replace or dominate the organs of the political sphere as clerical or spiritual representative(s) of god(s).
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Word history
* 2 Introduction
o 2.1 Ecclesiocracy & Hierocracy
* 3 History of the concept
* 4 Current states with theocratic aspects
o 4.1 Iran
o 4.2 Saudi Arabia
o 4.3 Israel
o 4.4 Norway
o 4.5 The Vatican
o 4.6 Religious communities
* 5 Historical theocracies
* 6 Parties and movements with theocratic aspects
* 7 See also
* 8 Notes
* 9 Sources and external links

LOL looks like 2 peas in a pod...


Iranians are not Arab, they are of Persian origin and there are minorities who are Kurds, Persian Jews and Christian Armenians

So I assume you are some prophet of end times or something?..

Creeping Death is the prophet of Fluffy.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/8484/fluffyqu1.jpg

Beware The Coming Of Fluffy Whose First Sign Is The Turmoil Of Israel.

Arabs and Jews in the Levant will never prosper through separatism, but will only move forward into normal progress after reconciliation through gradual voluntary integration- just as we have been learning in the USA.
I agree, but I think that integration might be likelier to happen peacefully (e.g. the EU) than by force. I know Israel and Hezbollah's recent actions make it less likely, but time and friendship could probably do a lot better than time and emnity. In the worst case emnity-scenario, Israel's neighbours would get angry enough to destroy her and her inhabitants ... and they would get back their 22 thousand km² land and get revenge on 7 million inhabitants, but they would lose far more land, and hundreds of millions of inhabitants to nuclear radiation...

Has Israel ever invaded Egypt or Jordan since their peace treaties? I wonder what would have happened if Syria and Lebanon, and later Hamas had managed treaties too...

My sympathies on Lebanon; unfortunately there's nothing I can realistically do other than hope a ceasefire happens soon.

I see Israel's metamorphosis coming not through warfare or military defeat, but instead through crisis, reforms, and finally integration. First Israelis must tire of the futility of fighting for the respect of Arab coinhabitants, and instead focus on the less instantaneous but far more effective process of earning regional and global respect peacefully. Foremost, Israelis must abandon the ideology of Zionist exceptionalism and separatism.

I see Israel's metamorphosis coming not through warfare or military defeat, but instead through crisis, reforms, and finally integration. First Israelis must tire of the futility of fighting for the respect of Arab coinhabitants, and instead focus on the less instantaneous but far more effective process of earning regional and global respect peacefully. Foremost, Israelis must abandon the ideology of Zionist exceptionalism and separatism.

The only way I can see that happening is if by some miracle, the Arab world forgets all its internal differences and unites against Israel. The only forseeable future I see right now is that all the militants will join ranks against Israel, to capitalize on whats happening. Hezbollah and Hamas are already together, Al-Qaeda has offered its support to Hezbollah and although under normal conditions, Nasrullah would never have considered it, he may well consider it now. And the latest I hear is the Egytian low profile militant group Gamaa Islamiya has joined Al-Qaeda. Iraqi militants will also support Hezbollah, both the Sunnis and the Shiites, if the demonstration in Baghdad was an indication.

I forsee dark days ahead.

crisis, reforms, and finally integration.
Looking at the last few years, if you call the second intifada a crisis for Israel ... that seems to have gone in the opposite direction. Fence, travel andwork restrictions, family reunion restrictions...

The more threatened they feel by their neighbours, the more reason they have to cling to separatism.

And the more they cling to separatism, the more reason they will have to feel threatened. Israelis are intelligent people- I believe they will decide/be compelled eventually to break the cycle.

Life In Dried Bodies Has Awoken
From The Depths Of Their Mortal Burdens
They Reach For That Moral High Ground To Justify Their Sufferings Yet
Winged Demons Drink Their Blood
They Are Forever Banished Into An Abyss Of Pain

Time oF Darkness Is At Hand

i cant wait for nothing to happen, creeping death.

I Trample The Cross Of Hypocrisy.

Arab leaders would never invade for democracy. They would invade to bring a Theocracy...or as I like to say a Theocrazy....

Seems the USA is a Theocracy, just a Christian one.

http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/JesusMessiah.jpg

nope, he sure isnt.

fluffy is.

And the more they cling to separatism, the more reason they will have to feel threatened. Israelis are intelligent people- I believe they will decide/be compelled eventually to break the cycle.

I'm not sure how much good intelligence does in politics. And given the problems in the Arab world - mistreatment of Copts in Egypt, persecution of Bahai'is in Iran, refugees unable to buy land in Lebanon - is there any reason Israelis should want to submit to similar treatment?

Serbia is splitting. Iraq may very well split. If things go well the states that made up Serbia will join the EU and coexistence will restart ... but until then, might separate countries not be better than everlasting civil war?

If it weren't for the recent violence, combining Lebanon and Israel into one country could've been an attractive idea ... and would've given the refugees in Lebanon an automatic right of return. After all, both countries were artificially carved out by imperial powers.

If it weren't for the recent violence, combining Lebanon and Israel into one country could've been an attractive idea ... and would've given the refugees in Lebanon an automatic right of return. After all, both countries were artificially carved out by imperial powers.

I'm not sure if you're eternally optimistic or wilfully unknowing. Regardless of this civil war, after 20 years of occupation, the Lebanese would never have accepted a merger with Israel.

Eternally optimistic. Because if people can't start living together, eventually there'll probably be a nuclear war - and the only optimism I can find there is that it might frighten the rest of the world out of making war ever again.

Eternally optimistic. Because if people can't start living together, eventually there'll probably be a nuclear war - and the only optimism I can find there is that it might frighten the rest of the world out of making war ever again.

People have very short memories; we tend to forget history or reinterpret it to suit our bias. Hence the insanity (definition of insanity- doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different response every time)

It might give humanity pause for a few decades at least.

Still, at the moment there only seem to be three options: two state solution, which some call separatism; one state solution, which some call impossible; no state solution, which some call genocidal war.

But, I suppose it's up to the middle east to thrash that out. Literally or diplomatically...

Well, at the moment there only seem to be three options: two state solution, which some call separatism; one state solution, which some call impossible; no state solution, which some call genocidal war. But, I suppose it's up to the middle east to thrash that out.

I think some solution must at least be attempted though. Does the new UN resolution address any issues?

NO, the only time a U.N. resolution ever has had any effect is when the parties involved have both agreed to it, and the Arabs have never held up their end of any U.N., or any other peaces agreement, before the ink is dry they are attacking Israel again.

It is equally true that Israel does not obey UN resolutions either.

Proof please, they seem to have given back a lot of conqured land in the vain hope for peace, and the only thing it got them is rockets deeper into their country, and more sucide bombing of their cildren and loved ones!