The assassination by helicopter of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin is only the most recent, and perhaps most brazen of such official Israeli acts. Like US President Bush's doctrine of "Pre-emptive War", Israel's policy creates a very serious challenge to international order, not only by inciting retaliation, but by lowering the bar, or ignoring the bar, of international law.

Israel's expediency could be to escalate the conflict while the world political climate, especially in the USA, is most reliably conducive to giving them a pass on any actions they see fit to take.

A UN condemnation will be forthcoming, and the US will have to decide if the usual veto in Israel's defense will be appropriate. As a team, the US and Israel are making for some very turbulent years ahead.

hey. war is war.
and this killing is not extra judicial. at least not in Yassin's case.
he was given a life sentence, only released because of the scum running Jordan made us. he's still guilty. he's still a murderer.

as far as the whole process of "extra judicial killing", it is war. when someone attacks you, you attack him, not give him a trial
but it's easy to speak from north america, hype, where you or your family are not in any danger, and nobody has been blown up

well, WTC and pentagon were, and look at USA...

anyway, moral superiority (something we possess anyway) never won wars.

btw, the terrorists in Fatah said that it will "target zionists in Israel and abroad for this great crime"
after Israel killed the leader of Hezbollah in 1994, shit went exploding in Argentina.. what are they gonna do now? are there any condemnations for THAT extrajudicial killing?
how about for extrajudicial bus bombings, and extrajudicial car shootings
or how about extrajudicial lynching of 2 arrested Israeli soldiers? (at the beginning of the intifada)

oh no.. not a word from the mighty noble west

The Israeli army is so brave that they needed AMERICAN provided Apatchi with Missiles to kill 67 years old wheel chair bound helpless man !!

All I can say is this: The Zionist jews will hear from us soon, in fact, hizbollah already started bounding Northern Israel...more to come soon.

you're a disgrace for the Ummah, ya kafir.
why aren't you strapping a dild... a bomb on and go martyr yourself?
be the hero of Islam

btw, we did just fine before 1967 without US weapons or support. we'll do just fine without it now.

You were defeated WITH the US weapons from South Lebanon by small group of mujahids like Hizbollah and you will be crushed soon from all Palestine.

no my friend. since Israel is a law abiding country, when a UN security counsil resolution was passed, telling us to leave S.Lebanon, we left.

you know, i cannot tell you how happy i am. i've been singing the whole morning.
now I understand why the 'palestinian' scum keep exploding themselves... every time one happens it gives them hope.

Israe is law abiding country !! what a joke !!!

Death without trial. In any other (especially Muslim) country this would cause cries of 'human rights abuses' and statements like 'only barbaric regimes would kill people without trial.' I doubt that would happen in this case - not even for his bodyguards.

Israel proved yet again that it is mafia based entity with some terrorists running the gang.

I do not know why the Palestinians are so upset. If guys like this Hamas leader die, he is becoming a martyr in the Palestinian view. So what is the problem? He got his wish, gets his virgins, heck, they should be thanking Israel. Why are they so upset, if so many wish to be martyrs, they can get it.

I do not know why the Palestinians are so upset. If guys like this Hamas leader die, he is becoming a martyr in the Palestinian view. So what is the problem? He got his wish, gets his virgins, heck, they should be thanking Israel. Why are they so upset, if so many wish to be martyrs, they can get it.


Thats a hell of alot of virgins...

you know, i cannot tell you how happy i am. i've been singing the whole morning.

I really wonder how many Israelies (LIVING in Israel) are singing this morning. Do you really think that they and their children are feeling safer today?

I really wonder how many Israelies (LIVING in Israel) are singing this morning. Do you really think that they and their children are feeling safer today?


Ask yourself how would the average american feel if bin ladin would have been blown to bits.

Ask yourself how would the average american feel if bin ladin would have been blown to bits.

They would feel great because there's an ocean separating Alqaida from US and American boarders are infinitly more sucure than any walls in Israel/Palestine. You can't be serious with that analogy!

If I were Israeli I would not feel too comfortable, this is the most powerful group within the Pals. Territories and their leader killed will cause I think attacks the Israeli's can't even imagine. I think it's painfully obvious that Sharon wants the situation to escalate into a more dangerous predicament for Israel. As we all know Israel thrives on threats, and persecution. The wall will now be justified because of the "unexpected teworists attacks", and the occupation will be strengthened.

Ask yourself how would the average american feel if bin ladin would have been blown to bits.

They should be scared shitless! You aren't dealing with a gov't here; you are dealing with an ideology which is only centralized in the fact that it has an ideological leader. Should that leader be killed the situation will turn fanatic, revenge would be #1 on their lists. Americans may feel jubilation (so they should) but they chant forget that this is a de-centralized organization that can harm the US OBL or not.

They would feel great because there's an ocean separating Alqaida from US and American boarders are infinitly more sucure than any walls in Israel/Palestine. You can't be serious with that analogy!



Funny cause more people were killed in WTC than Israelis in all the intefadah. Yeah Im not kidding.

I really wonder how many Israelies (LIVING in Israel) are singing this morning. Do you really think that they and their children are feeling safer today?

lots of them, i'm sure.
they're not feeling any more safer than they felt 48 hours ago.
hamas was not going to stop its attacks anyway. they would've murdered Israelis regardless of Yassin being killed.

as i've said in previous posts, they can't threaten or do things that they haven't threatened or done before.

there is no reasoning with them. they want to kill Jews and destroy Israel... not in the sense of destroying Israeli gov't, but expelling the Jews out of Israel.

will killing Yassin escalate tensions in the short-term? yeah. considering the free incitement the arabs are getting courtesy of CNN and NYT... but it'll die down.

anyway, when they're pissed, they're making mistakes (all fanatics are like that), and will expose themselves, for further liquidation.

i'd say it's a very smart tactical move

http://allisonkaplansommer.blogmosis.com/history/023486.html

Death without trial. In any other (especially Muslim) country this would cause cries of 'human rights abuses'
I am surprised that you have a problem with death without trial. I remember many, many times where you supported instances of death without trial against... just about anyone non-Muslim or non-Arab. A number of those instances were in this very thread.
The Israeli army is so brave that they needed AMERICAN provided Apatchi with Missiles to kill 67 years old wheel chair bound helpless man !!
An old helpless man with bodyguards and a number of heavily armed followers. And who cares about bravery? Bravery gets you killed when ther is a better way to do things. My father always said “You never want to be in a foxhole with someone dumber than you are or braver than you are”. A missile attack doesn't seem more cowardly or a worse way to die than the ways I know you endorse.
All I can say is this: The Zionist jews will hear from us soon, in fact, hizbollah already started bounding Northern Israel...more to come soon.
Hmmmm... seems like you place a higher value on the life of one of your own people than one of another's. I also feel its strange because you endorse the idea of Palestinians blowing themselves to Jello in order to take a few children or a Starbuck's with them.

Since the assassination I have heard you endorse the killing of innocents up to and beyond the point of genocide, suicide bombings, and a number of other nasty things. You need to get your head together because your credibility is slipping real fast.

maybe this (http://www.masada2000.org/FightFair.html) is how the world wants us to fight terrorism?

when i say "we", i mean the civilized world

Just to make sure, we the civilized world means the west no? Well if I am not mistaken it was this same civilized world that gassed 6 million Jews, and 6 million others to their deaths. It was our civilized world that put over 25 million ppl in the Gulags of Siberia, it is us the civilized world that imprisons ppl without a hearing, it is us the civilized west that funds terrorist regimes from Israel to Pakistan, to Uzbekistan. So in order to be a civilized world I guess we need to prop up the uncivilized. Fanatic Zionism along with fanatic Islam is the most barbaric waste of human intellect, and you two deserve each other. Bomb away!

Just for measure:

There were furious denunciations from Muslim countries, the European Union condemned what it called an “extra-judicial killing”, and Kofi Annan, the UN's secretary-general, said the attack broke international law. America denied accusations from some Palestinian groups that it had been involved in, or had advance knowledge of, the killing.
------------------------------------------------------
Mr Sharon has also been seeking American support for Israel hanging on to several settlements in the West Bank in return for withdrawing from Gaza. Recent weeks have seen intensive shuttling between Washington, Tel Aviv and Cairo, as the Bush administration questioned Israel on the details of the plan, and Egypt tried to draw up a security strategy for the Palestinian Authority (PA) once Israeli troops had left Gaza.
-------------------------------------------------------
The killing of Mr Yassin is a great gust in the PA’s house of cards. While it nominally governs the Gaza strip and its 1.2m Arab inhabitants, Israeli incursions and checkpoints have weakened the grip of the PA’s security forces on the territory. As the PA has become riven by factional infighting, support for Hamas has steadily grown—in Gaza, its influence now exceeds the PA’s.

What a tangled web we weave.

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2533990

I really wonder how many Israelies (LIVING in Israel) are singing this morning. Do you really think that they and their children are feeling safer today?

EXACTLY !!! Already one Israeli cabint minister asked: how many Israelis will lose their lives for this act ???

Ask yourself how would the average american feel if bin ladin would have been blown to bits.

Or ask them how they will feel if George Bush was blown to bits !!

Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia are not representative of the west (at least not to us sane people). BTW, Russia is 'east', not 'west'.


Hitler was western; Germany just did not disappear for 12 years. Stalin's Russia was brought from our civilized ideologies, and he 25 million ppl died under his direct rule. But those are merely only two of the great genocides that the West has committed, Slavery, Amerindian holocaust, imperialism, Congo holocaust...may I go on? Before you utter the words civilized know that they mean.

and what do you mean "prop up the uncivilized"?

Billions in aid, weaponry, and political support. Israel is not alone...note I am not absolving the Pals. They are just as guilt of this senseless violence.

People are people so why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully

So we're different colours
And we're different creeds
And different people have different needs
It's obvious you hate me
Though I've done nothing wrong
I never even met you
So what could I have done

we've changed, haven't we?
and that doesn't mean there's no more work to be done.
but we're improving.

while the muslim world has worsened.
this disgusting extremism wasn't there 10 years ago. well i mean it was, but suicide bombings were unheard of.

PM would you like to be a shahid? would you like to strap on a bomb, blow yourself up in an Israeli bus and go to heaven?

we've changed, haven't we?


Have we? We support these tyrannical regimes all over the Muslim world. Do you even wonder why they hate us? Who propped Saddam, the West, who propped the Shah? The West. We the civilized world invaded a nation for no reason other then for power, killing at least 12,000. Is that civilized? That is terrorism, our western way of thinking tells us; Uniform absolves us of responsibility, it doesn't. The West, we are the imperialist barbarian’s oth. We have created the problems in the Middle East. Before 1918 the region was peaceful, Christian, Jew, Muslim lived together in peace. It was the European powers that created this mess, and now the US is merely extending it.

while the muslim world has worsened.


The Muslim world is very large, Malaysia just voted in a secular party, Iran is fighting for democracy, and Turkey is Islamic are they getting worse? Don't be so broad with you terms.

this disgusting extremism wasn't there 10 years ago. well i mean it was, but suicide bombings were unheard of.

Ask yourself why...

How many people here play FPS games?

Look ... I was just shaking this one off and trying to let the news not get to me this morning when I heard CNN's phrasing of it. And then I thought, that must be wrong. And then I saw the pictures.

Now let's just get this straight: soldiers shot a man in a wheelchair with a rocket.

This wasn't about just killing Yassin. The Israelis could have done that with a rifle. The terroristic rocket attack was designed to hurt and kill more Palestinians than just the target.

Let's make another thing clear: those are acts of war.

Which means another year of listening to FOX News talk about arriving on the scene just in time to watch the crews pull the head of the suicide bomber out of the bent metal framing of the bus stop.

Wheelchair. Rocket. I generally only see overkill like that in a video game.

Ask yourself why...
because Israel showed weakness. it decided to start the Oslo bullshit. before Oslo there was no incentive for arabs to start suicide bombings. as soon as they saw some hope, they decided to 'speed shit up a little'
i mean, if Israel started to crack, maybe they can get more than just a finger... they'll go for the whole hand
and of course it was quickly transformed to be a 'muslim thing', so bin-Laden adapted this technique.

if Israel refused to go through with Oslo, the WTC might still be standing now... think about it

Now let's just get this straight: soldiers shot a man in a wheelchair with a rocket
and bin-Laden is just a man with a stick

those are acts of war.
i am happy you finally recognize it for what it is.

i'm sorry, i can't find any bloody images of a suicide bombing (Israelis don't post this thing for all the world to see), but these clearly were not acts of war

The Israelis could have done that with a rifle.
or with a knife, like Abu-Abass's thugs did to a wheelchair-bound Jewish 80-something year old man on the hijacked Achile-Lauro cruise

PM would you like to be a shahid? would you like to strap on a bomb, blow yourself up in an Israeli bus and go to heaven?

Yes, I would like to be SHAHID, but I am not going to blow up myself, I want to die in the battelfield fighting the nazi jews face to face, this will be my ultimate happiness, I mean, it is the HONOUR and the DREAM of every muslim to die a martyer.

''And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: 'They are dead.' Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.'' (The Noble Quran, 2:154)"

"Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord. They rejoice in the Bounty provided by Allah: And with regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve. They glory in the Grace and Bounty from Allah, and in the fact that Allah suffereth not the reward of the faithful to be lost (in the least). (The Noble Quran, 3:169-171)"

You guys cant understand that MARTYERDOM is the ultimate goal of every single Muslim on this earth.

because Israel showed weakness. it decided to start the Oslo bullshit. before Oslo there was no incentive for arabs to start suicide bombings.

Israel before oth went through 5 years of the first intifada, this was merely a new tactic. But remember the suicide bombings did not derail the talks with Israel, by 2000 things were going very well. What changed everything was Sharon going to the Temple mount claiming for Israel. He knew that saying that and going there was off limits. It was the political disintegration that caused this to happen. Also remember that Yassin did offer talks with the Israeli's if they pulled out of the occupied territories. Why is a simple answer oth, after 37 years of illegal occupation you can't expect ppl to love you.

and of course it was quickly transformed to be a 'muslim thing', so bin-Laden adapted this technique.

Bin Laden was doing that in the 80s in Afghanistan...

Wasn't Leon Klinghoffer shot?

EXACTLY !!! Already one Israeli cabint minister asked: how many Israelis will lose their lives for this act ???
Theoretically, not a one. Assorted islamist terrorist groups have essentially put a price on the head of every Jewish person in the Middle East long before the assassination took place. This is just moving up their schedule.

Now let's just get this straight: soldiers shot a man in a wheelchair with a rocket
and bin-Laden is just a man with a stick That was really stupid.

I'm curious what your problem is? I can't figure out which is the less-damaging excuse for you, that you can't read or that you don't have a real point to make.

Give it another try, and if you're still incapable of understanding, I'll float you a clue.those are acts of war.
i am happy you finally recognize it for what it is.Again, that was really, really stupid. I'm one of the folks around here who has never really pretended it was anything else.The Israelis could have done that with a rifle.
or with a knife, like Abu-Abass's thugs did to a wheelchair-bound Jewish 80-something year old man on the hijacked Achile-Lauro cruiseLook, Otheadp, if you have nothing useful to lend to the discussion, perhaps you could at least show a little dignity.

I hold myself answered: get yourself a point and try again.

Seriously, Otheadp, do you consider that position you're arguing from either valid or intelligent?

oh boy, you really showed me!
ouch, those points totally made me open my eyes!

isn't there a fat joint waiting for you? go smoke it.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39950000/jpg/_39950687_ululating_203indexap.jpg

they killed gandalf!
thems gonna pay.

All the back-and-forth about who has killed, who deserves their revenge utterly misses the issue I am attempting to collaborate in examining. What imperfect order we have between nations is predicated on the assumptions that states conform to basic rules of international law.

That terrorists act ruthlessly and illegally must not be confused as any justification whatever, absolving states from acting lawfully. Apprehending terrorists through legal means is necessary, because if states cross the line beyond the law, the established system of law under which terrorists and other criminals can be prosecuted breaks down. When state officials fatally ambush suspects or perpetrators, law, and more importantly- order - are sacrificed. For similar reasons, if your local police organizations ignore the law, they become legally precluded from legitimacy and lawful enforcement.

The natural progression the Israeli government is setting in motion is a serious degeneration into total war, where all rules are progressively disregarded. This is a very dangerous trend for both Israel and the entire world, that not only will incite more terrorism, but also presents a grave threat to international order. Israelis should understand all to well that in a contest using the only the law of the jungle, they will ultimately and catasrophically lose. Especially in a region struggling with explosive ethnic tensions, the rule of law is an irreplaceable suppressor of unbridled violence. Especially in the case of confronting terrorism, states seeking to maintain legitimacy must adhere to fundamental international law- if not for ethical reasons, then to not suffer the long-term consequences of becoming a pariah state.

In Israel's vulnerable situation, it should be understood that the United States may not forever wield sufficient leverage to provide present levels of cover and absolution for illegal and internationally condemned acts of the Israeli state. As time passes, if the state legitimacy of Israel is to be increasingly accepted in the region and world at large, there are responsibilities of lawful states that are obligatory. Today's Gaza spectacle has moved Israel away from the legitimacy and peace she seeks, and the resultant damage to Israel's security will unfortunately be incalculably greater in blowback than was ever the threat presented by one bellicose old cleric.

ouch, those points totally made me open my eyes!I do confess it's hard to make a point about what you say when you give nothing substantial to work with.

Your responses demonstrated entirely a lack of comprehension; that lack seems rather quite willful, as the primary alternative is that you really are illiterate.

I suppose the shorter response would have been to look at your post and ask, And your point being?isn't there a fat joint waiting for you? go smoke it.Actually, I was thinking that I might go lobotomize myself with a nail gun, return to the conversation, and undertake your points again on a more level playing field.

Seriously ... if that's your contribution to the discussion, Otheadp, why bother?

I mean, they weren't even good jokes.

But actually, I don't smoke joints very often. I smoke out of glass utensils in order to cut the unnecessary particulate exhaust.

And yes, there is a phatty-phat-phat-phat waiting for me. Thank you for the reminder.

As a personal appeal, Otheadp, it's just that as much as I would like to figure out the issues motivating the pro-death movement, it's very hard to do so when there's nothing resembling a coherent argument coming out of it.

Take the Palestinian side of it, for instance; even in our American values, there are some things "worth dying for," and while that idea makes sense in the sense of a suicide bomber, it doesn't reconcile as neatly with reality as one would desire in order to find a simple solution to the problem; the reality is that suicide bombers are not always from desperately poor families; in fact, that's one of the puzzling issues about it. But at least I have something to work with. The rest can come later.

Take, from the Israeli side a phrase like "homicide bomber." I remember laughing when I heard Sharon use it and explain it on FOX. It is admittedly propaganda, because the Israeli government feels the phrase "suicide bomber" invokes sympathy for the bomber. Yet, technically, properly-dispatched soldiers in a legitimate conflict can be "homicide bombers." Properly-dispatched pilots in a legitimate conflict can be "homicide bombers." The Israeli death squads are "homicide bombers." Actually, they're "homicide rocketeers," mostly, but the exploitation of the phrase "homicide bomber" reflects the degree of political slant in the Israel position; reality is subordinate to political desire.

The question is one of peace or pride. The answers don't necessarily make sense from either side, but to the Israeli side in this death-festival I must stress that your arguments make even less sense than the madmen with dynamite strapped to their chests.

When all you've got is illiteracy and spite? Try making sense for once.

Oh, and remember: get everybody in the Middle East good and stoned and give them lots of munchees and maybe some good trippin' tunes like The Seeds, Morphine, Screaming Trees, and so forth, and we can start fixing things right off.

While we were bombing Afghanistan, Pearl Jam flew Rahat Ali Khan and his troupe to Seattle and gave them time on a bill that also featured REM and Alanis Morisette. Thirty-seven hours in flight, straight from the airport, and they still knocked the crowd over.

Seriously ... perhaps it's time for "Camping Out: Pearl Jam plays the Palestine." Maybe pull the mythical stunt with the joints, or burn censers of Lebanese hash onstage. Get the people mellow, feeling good about themselves. Give them a reason to not dread the rising of the sun save for the notion that it's a good day to die.

man, if i don't meet your standards for "good discussion" then why are you bothering to descend upon me with your mighty and lobotomized ass and wisdom?

just leave me alone.

...i don't have time now but i'll get to the actual points later on

Wheelchair bound, blind but still a fanatic. Hamas live by the sword and they will die by the sword. The sword of righteous christianity!

revenge
there's an element of revenge here. of course. jail time for any offence is partially made up of a revenge factor.
but this guy presented danger and threat to Israeli lives, which is a much bigger factor
him being in a wheelchair doesn't mean he's not an active player
he's handling millions of dollars in donations
gives spiritual guidance and support for terrorism
coordinates different parts of hamas
etc. etc. etc.
to say that he's in a wheelchair and therefore not dangerous is just stupid

Apprehending terrorists through legal means is necessary, because if states cross the line beyond the law, the established system of law under which terrorists and other criminals can be prosecuted breaks down.
the world doesn't even have a legal definition of a "terrorist"
that's the first step in creating the legal framework (if such thing is even applicable here) for fighting terrorism.
such framework does not exist
lack of it does not mean terrorism should not be fought

When state officials fatally ambush suspects or perpetrators, law, and more importantly- order - are sacrificed.
which law? the one that doesn't exist?
order will be sacrificed either way.

you see, they don't go after random "suspects"
this guy's hands are full of blood. from past to present.

For similar reasons, if your local police organizations ignore the law, they become legally precluded from legitimacy and lawful enforcement
they have clear definitions of "illegal acts", as well as clear procedures on handling the criminals.
as i've said above, with terrorism, there is no one global definition what's "illegal" and the clear procedure on the "legal" ways of dealing with the perps.

a serious degeneration into total war, where all rules are progressively disregarded
there were never any rules stopping the 'palestinians' from doing anything.
but we stopped ourselves. slowly we're taking our gloves off.
if this goes on a few more years i wouldn't be surprised if the 'palestinian' population has roadblocks every 100 meters, and more civilians get hurt.
maybe a transfer will take place.. who knows..
i hope it doesn't get to that

"homicide bomber."
i thought that phrase was coined by Bush

the reality is that suicide bombers are not always from desperately poor families; in fact, that's one of the puzzling issues about it
this refutes the myth that bad economic conditions (i.e. desparation) create the suicide bombing phoenomenon. they're used to be living in shit conditions. not only in Yesha (Yehuda, Shomron, Aza, aka Judea, Samaria, Gaza) but in the rest of those shit countries .. some are better than others, but in general, there's nothing to write home about.
it's not about national aspirations either.
it's only about the territories Israel is holding.
when "West Bank" was held by Jordan, no 'palestinian' was talking about a state there.
when Gaza was held by Egypt, no 'palestinian' was talking about a state there either.
it is when Israel, the Jews, took over, is when they decided to turn on the propaganda direction towards the "a People seeking national aspiration" angle

in fact there are 2 factors in this whole terrorism campaign
1 - hope
for the destruction of Israel. before Oslo, there were no suicide bombings. there was no 'distant light at the end of the tunnel'
as soon as that light appeared, it gave them hope. it gave them incentive. throw in the whole world being duped thru the massive propaganda network of the big networks looking to make a buck (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=34012), and you've got a very big hope factor

2 - deep religious beliefs
if you check the Arab Propaganda (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=34042&page=1) thread that was closed down, you'll find plenty of examples.
just check the local fanatic, Proud_Muslim... he's a perfect example

3 - the current culture of the death-cult
it's everywhere. you cannot escape it. on tv, in mosques, in schools, in newspapers... this is what 'palestinian' society has become... and steadily going even further down the spiral towards that direction

anyway,
the answer to terrorism is resolve, not surrender
at any rate, Israel should not (although it is) listen to the world on how, or ask for permission, to protect itself.
no nation in the world would be!

this terrorist fucker is the highest level terrorist killed to date. you keep condemning it, and smoking your bowls, and listening to Pearl Jam and The Seeds
this doesn't really concern you anyway

Pothead: ”with terrorism, there is no one global definition what's "illegal" and the clear procedure on the "legal" ways of dealing with the perps”

From UN (http://www.un.org) website:

1. League of Nations Convention (1937):
"All criminal acts directed against a State and intended or calculated to create a state of terror in the minds of particular persons or a group of persons or the general public".

2. UN Resolution language (1999):

"1. Strongly condemns all acts, methods and practices of terrorism as criminal and unjustifiable, wherever and by whomsoever committed;

2. Reiterates that criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other nature that may be invoked to justify them". (GA Res. 51/210 Measures to eliminate international terrorism)

3. Short legal definition proposed by A. P. Schmid to United Nations Crime Branch (1992):
Act of Terrorism = Peacetime Equivalent of War Crime

4. Academic Consensus Definition:
"Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby - in contrast to assassination - the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperilled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought" (Schmid, 1988).

Every nation with any system of laws has penalties for violent political acts.

”when "West Bank" was held by Jordan, no 'palestinian' was talking about a state there.
when Gaza was held by Egypt, no 'palestinian' was talking about a state there either.
it is when Israel, the Jews, took over, is when they decided to…”

Because only Israel carried out ethnic cleansing and apartheid.

”the answer to terrorism is resolve, not surrender”

I agree. Where we differ is when I contend that states must not incite or descend to the brutality of terrorism by acting illegally.

”Israel should not (although it is) listen to the world on how, or ask for permission, to protect itself.”

In order to participate in the community of nations, especially as a smaller nation, it is important to conform to international standards, such as the Geneva Convention, and UN resolutions. As a practical matter, failure to do so as an egregious pattern may result in serious economic and strategic pressure.

”this doesn't really concern you anyway”

Israel is wrapped up in a conflict with Islamist and Arab terrorists that is not only escalating but globalizing. When a fight breaks out in a public setting, and threatens bystanders, it is usually necessary and important to restrain all violent individuals. In much the same way, when Israel is irresponsible, the consequences can have effect on other nations. For Americans, the consequences are especially severe, because the United States is Israel’s leading bankroller and political apologist. I have personally been in mortal danger on several occasions because of retaliation on Americans for Israeli policy. There are places I love that I do not go now, because the danger is too great. People I care about are in danger now, and even here in the US, I am in slightly greater danger whenever the Arab-Israeli conflict is escalated. Therefore, this concerns me.

The killing of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin was actually a victory for Hamas. The effect of the Israeli attack is consolidating and reuniting the Islamic world to support Hamas. I mean what more can the Hamas group ask for?! Yassin, as a leader of the terrorist group, is much more effective dead than he ever was alive. And they have Sharon to thank for that!

Sadly, that's very true, ds

i thought that phrase was coined by Bush Perhaps. My understanding of it goes Sharon -> FOX News -> Bush Administration.this refutes the myth that bad economic conditions (i.e. desparation) create the suicide bombing phoenomenon.)Very Antoinette.

I agree it complicates things, but it refutes nothing.they're used to be living in shit conditions. So why should we continue to oblige them to?they're used to be living in shit conditions. not only in Yesha (Yehuda, Shomron, Aza, aka Judea, Samaria, Gaza) but in the rest of those shit countries .. some are better than others, but in general, there's nothing to write home about. Which, by what logic, is reason to perpetuate the situation? Oh, the poor ingrates, wishing for a better existence. How dare they be so ... so ... so goddamned human!

:rolleyes: it's not about national aspirations either.
it's only about the territories Israel is holding.
when "West Bank" was held by Jordan, no 'palestinian' was talking about a state there.
when Gaza was held by Egypt, no 'palestinian' was talking about a state there either.
it is when Israel, the Jews, took over, is when they decided to turn on the propaganda direction towards the "a People seeking national aspiration" angleI consider the limiting of the proprietary claim to the West Bank and Gaza a concession: Yet during these last years the basis for a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict had been defined. In 1988 the Palestinian National Council (PNC) met in Algiers and voted in favour of a two-state solution based on security council resolutions 242 and 338, which call for Israel’s withdrawal from the lands occupied in the June 1967 war. This historic decision meant recognition, not just of Israel’s right to exist, but also to exercise that right on 78% of historic Palestine. The PNC agreed to a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, including Jerusalem - that is to say on just 22% of historic Palestine. In agreeing this, the Palestinians - the original inhabitants of Palestine - recognised an Israel living in peace and security within the 4 June 1967 borders. (1 (http://mondediplo.com/2000/12/12campdavid))Twenty-two is less than one-hundred percent.

It seems to me that Jordanian control of the West Bank wasn't nearly as problematic to the Palestinians as living under the Israeli occupation.

Nonetheless, I would say that the issue of the West Bank looks back to the Israeli occupation in 1967. So I have a hard time sharing your sentiment of faulting the Palestinians for making a concession in their demands.in fact there are 2 factors in this whole terrorism campaign The destruction of Israel is reflective of the initial displacement of the Palestinians and Israel's failure to work and play well with its neighbors. Deep religious beliefs are a problem outside Palestine. The current culture of death, as well, is not exclusively Palestinian.anyway,
the answer to terrorism is resolve, not surrender
at any rate, Israel should not (although it is) listen to the world on how, or ask for permission, to protect itself.
no nation in the world would be!And neither should Iraq, Iran, Nepal, Uzbekistan, the United States, China, Sudan, Liberia . . . .

Any nation that wants to be part of the world community has an obligation to respect that community.this terrorist fucker is the highest level terrorist killed to date. you keep condemning it, And you keep condemning suicide bombings. It's all crap.

But think of it in terms of your family: Some people will protect their families with guns. However, would you fire a tank round into your house while your family is asleep in order to get a suspected burglar? Would you fire an RPG past the fleeing burglar into your neighbor's living room? Was the thief Hispanic? Why not get a helicopter, fly over to the Hispanic district, and drop a large bomb on him. Yeah, you'll take care of your problem. And you'll kill some other folks, too, and piss off a lot of people.

Golda Meier once said, "We can forgive the Palestinians for killing our children, but not for making us kill theirs." There's a point in my life that I would have believed that. But the Israelis seem to enjoy it now.and smoking your bowls, and listening to Pearl Jam and The SeedsIt's pretty sad that you're so obsessed with such pettiness when there's so much more afoot.

We know you don't have anything else to offer.

Prove us wrong.this doesn't really concern you anyway Now I'm going to borrow one from you: Those points totally made me open my eyes!

:rolleyes:

Look, if you want me to leave you alone, stop addressing me. But then again, I thought you said you were going to "get to the actual points later on."

Let me know when you're up for it.

... wheelchair bound... rocket...

The more I chew on it, the more pathetic the whole struggle seems.

Thanks to the U.S. backing of Israel, the Palestinians simply can't contend; the Israelis, be they wrongful Zionist pigs (as PM views them) or not, are capable of smashing these terrorists flat.

Suicide bombers are a joke.
The Jews are always going to win. This episode, in particular, confirms it.
Is anyone here, other than PM, really ready to believe otherwise? How can one argue with a rocket hitting a cripple?
There's just NO CONTEST.

If I remember correctly, this individual(if he's the same guy I'm thinking of) has quite a history with the Israeli "justice" system. They had him in prison at one time, agreed to realize him in a prisoner exchange, and upon releasing him sent two agents to kill him. They failed and were themselves taken prisoner.
Given that, its hardly surprising that they'd do this.

Israel's "extrajudicial executions", in which they blow up crowds of people to kill one target, along with all the other oppresive practices that they engage in(bulldozing, roadblocks, etc.) are all actions of the Israeli government. Palestinian suicide bombings are the actions of individuals and groups largely in response to those practices. Although the official mantra of these groups may be "from the river to the sea", if Israel stopped killing people, knocking people's houses over, and building fences and walls everywhere, these groups would likely have a harder time finding recruits willing to die for that principle.

What exactly have they tried to "win" by this assasination? Justice? Fine. A bad man has been brought to justice. Infinitly more important, Israel has "lost" any chance of peace and security for its people.

Precisely- and of course that alone won't end the conflict, but must be followed up with negotiated solutions, which must be followed up ultimately with total repudiation of ethnic segregation and ethnic inequality. I feel obliged to add this, because in these debates alternatives are often summarily dismissed for not instantly solving everything that military escalation can't.

As an unavoidable first step from here, Israel must establish her legitimacy. This necessitates acting very prudently not only in the eyes of militant zionists, but also in the eyes of surrounding nations, and in the eyes of the world. It's a very tall order, but that's what self-evidently presents itself, and that's what clearly cannot be ignored, in the aftermath of hacking out a homeland by force in the modern era.

• Economist Global Agenda. "A wave of fury at Yassin's killing." The Economist, March 22, 2004. See http://economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2533990

It seems that the chance for peace is a running theme:When Mr Yassin co-founded Hamas in 1987, the Islamic group’s aim was not just to end Israel’s occupation of the Gaza strip and West Bank (which had both been seized in a war 20 years earlier) but also to destroy Israel itself. In January, he signalled that he was ready in principle for a truce. But Israel dismissed his gesture, doubting its sincerity, and kept his name on its list of targets.

Besides avenging the Ashdod bombing, the assassination of Mr Yassin may have been a show of strength by Israel, ahead of its proposed pull-out from most of the Gaza strip . . . .

. . . . The killing of Mr Yassin is a great gust in the PA’s house of cards. While it nominally governs the Gaza strip and its 1.2m Arab inhabitants, Israeli incursions and checkpoints have weakened the grip of the PA’s security forces on the territory. As the PA has become riven by factional infighting, support for Hamas has steadily grown—in Gaza, its influence now exceeds the PA’s . . . . Now, with Mr Yassin’s death . . . hopes of a ceasefire seem dashed. Meanwhile, Hamas seems likely to grow stronger, not weaker, on the wings of its newly martyred leader.Also:

• Phillips, Alan. "It may have been right to kill Yassin, but it was also stupid." The Telegraph, March 23, 2004. See http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/03/23/do2301.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2004/03/23/ixopinion.html
An interview with Ahmed Yassin is one of the most confusing encounters in a reporter's career. The unsuspecting journalist would scour the room for the subject of the interview, the spiritual leader of Hamas, whose word was enough to start a blood-spattered campaign of suicide bombings.

The room seemed to be empty apart from his attendants. Only on closer inspection did I see a tiny, frail form emerge - once when I interviewed him slumped in a wheelchair, once propped up on pillows in bed. He could speak only in a whisper, the spark of life barely discernible in the wreck of his body.

That flickering spark finally left him yesterday morning, driven out by three Israeli rockets as he returned from prayers at the mosque near his home in the Gaza Strip.

The fact that this paraplegic was killed as he returned from religious observance, on a route he used daily, will give Israel's friends pause for concern. We live in a world where image counts for a lot. His wheelchair blown apart by the best of Israeli and American technology will become an icon for the Islamic world . . . .

. . . . Much diplomatic effort behind the scenes has gone on to persuade the world that Mr Sharon is serious in his disengagement plan. Apart from vacating Gaza, it will also involve abandoning some two dozen settlements on the West Bank, in return for being allowed to annexe the larger settlements to Israel.

The outside world is even more confused than before. If this is a serious proposal, it is hard to see how the disengagement has been brought forward by yesterday's events.

The alternative is that it was never serious, but a bone thrown to world opinion. Perhaps it is simply a twin-track approach, but that suggests less than full commitment to Mr Sharon's goal of full disengagement from the Palestinians.Sometimes the compromise is a rough one. But even if we speculate that Yassin would have lived another ten years naturally, I'm betting the death toll would be lower if Israel chose a better route.

(A note for Rappaccini: Did you catch that? Three rockets? For some reason, the phrase, "Really f@cking clear!" comes to mind. I think it's from a war movie.)

this refutes the myth that bad economic conditions (i.e. desparation) create the suicide bombing phoenomenon.
I think the world is aware of why these people feel so desperate that they blow themselves up as a form of self-defence. It is not just economical factors, but the fact that they were dispossessed of their land, have no right of passage through the land they have left, they have no rights altogether, they are forced to live in crowded camp conditions, living with the fear that what land they have left can be taken from them at any time, etc. The myth of bad economic conditions is just that, a myth. The reason for the suicide bombings runs much deeper than that.

they're used to be living in shit conditions. not only in Yesha (Yehuda, Shomron, Aza, aka Judea, Samaria, Gaza) but in the rest of those shit countries .. some are better than others, but in general, there's nothing to write home about.
So you feel no guilt or shame that they were run off their lands and out of their homes (which their families had occupied for hundreds of years) to force them to live in the, what you called, shit conditions? Yes that's right, they had homes with all the mod-cons and were forced to leave all behind and forced to live in tents and homes that had no running water, plumbing, electricity, just so that you could live there. Lucky you. Yes the Jews living in Isreal have such a right to be aggrieved. They got free housing (at the cost of others losing their very homes), they got easy employment (at the cost of others losing theirs), they got free land (at the cost of others losing theirs), they got money (at the cost of others losing theirs from their bank accounts through seizures and at the cost of American tax payers), etc... yes they are really hard done by. I have always felt disgust and revulsion at the thought of someone blowing themselves up while killing innocent civilians, but when I think deep down about it, I realise that they have no other weapon, desperate means and reasons always lead to desperate measures.

it is when Israel, the Jews, took over, is when they decided to turn on the propaganda direction towards the "a People seeking national aspiration" angle

Refer to above about the Jewish land grab which continues even today. You are given a shitload of land, to the detriment of the Palestinians who lost their land as a result, yet you're still not satisfied? You take more and more, dwindling away what little land they have left. You knock down their homes and profit from their farms and produce, giving them nothing but feelings of shame, distrust, anger, hatred in return. Your 'a People seeking national aspiration' angle is a laugh Oth. Those 'people' are only out to get what they can to the detriment of another group. It never ceases to amaze me how we are all taught the horrors perpetrated against the Jews in WWII, but I hope that one day in the future, children will learn about the horrors perpetrated against the Palestinians by the very same Jews who survived WWII. The war as you call it Oth is the result of a greed for land and a hate for the Palestinians who've more right to be there than the majority of any other group.

in fact there are 2 factors in this whole terrorism campaign
1 - hope
for the destruction of Israel. before Oslo, there were no suicide bombings. there was no 'distant light at the end of the tunnel'
as soon as that light appeared, it gave them hope. it gave them incentive.
Yes, they really should never dream of getting what's rightfully theirs back. How dare they?!? How dare they have hope that they could get their homes and land back?!? The thought of having that as an incentive?!? :rolleyes:

2 - deep religious beliefs
PM's rantings aside, you fail to account for the fact that many Palestinians are actually Christian. You take away their right to access deeply religious grounds for worship, you drop a bomb on top of the head of their wheelchair bound religious cleric. And you wonder why they do it? Suicide bombings are vile, but the reasons why they're forced to take such measures are even more disgusting.

3 - the current culture of the death-cult
I don't see it as a death culture. The majority of the educated world don't see it as such. Instead they see a few desperate individuals who feel they have no other way out. And they'll keep going down the spiral with each piece of land you illegally cease.

Another important aspect of Israeli provocation is that the Sharon government quite evidently does not wish for the conflict to de-escalate. The goals of the Sharon strategy are difficult to extrapolate, but there is ample reason to infer that the intention is to make gains in conflict and not negotiation. I suspect that the Sharon government could have a sense that the maximum conflict must be pursued while the geopolitical climate and especially American zeitgeist is at its most belligerent in general. Chris McGreal (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1175850,00.html) reflects along these lines from Gaza City for TheGuardian:
said Ali Jarbawi, a political analyst at Bir Zeit university. "Sharon doesn't want negotiations, he wants a managed conflict because it justifies his strategy of unilateral disengagement on his terms. Killing Yassin ensures that the conflict goes on. It also weakens the Palestinian Authority because it looks impotent and unable to protect its citizens in the eyes of the Palestinian population."

Wheelchair bound, blind but still a fanatic. Hamas live by the sword and they will die by the sword. The sword of righteous christianity!

You mean Israel live by sword and will end by sword, after all, this is how Israel was established by the biggest armed robbery in the 20th century, as for the sword of christianity, this is how the sword is working nowadays:

Church may end up as sect, warns bishop

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1174137,00.html

ENJOY!

:D

Listen to this:

Israel’s killing of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas, has been met by Palestinian threats of revenge, European condemnation and American denials of involvement

http://economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2533990

Even the neo cons who run America are too scared to be associated with this murder, they know that the Muslim rage will burn them forever !! :mad:

Another point: in the whole history of the IRA struggle with the U.K., the UK did not even dare to assassinate JERRY ADAM the leader of the SINN FIEN ( the political wing of the IRA ) it is only rouge terrorist states like Israel which kills like MAFIA STYLE GANG.

Another important aspect of Israeli provocation is that the Sharon government quite evidently does not wish for the conflict to de-escalate
Right on Hype.
Sharon is not stupid he knows what he is doing. I can't see the whole game plan from here but whatever his goals he's prepared to sacrifice Israeli civillians to achieve them.
I've just been watching the video feeds coming in there's a scene where one of the locals holds up a buckled and charred wheel from the chair, other bits and bobs lie scattered about in the street. Behind him we see crowds and shopfronts with blast damaged windows.

Israel sent a helicopter gunship to fire rockets at 67 year old quadrapegic being pushed down a busy street in his wheelchair.

Thats astounding IMHO
It could not possibly be the only way to get the job done.
What were they thinking of?
I can perhaps accept there are no innocents in this conflict but such action will not gain Isreal any sympathy or security.

That attack was calculated to shake the wasp jar.
Now why would they want to do that?
Crazy Days indeed.
Dee Cee

Peace to you all, shalom/salam etc...
I started reading this thread this morning, it is now 17:32.
I have taken the time, not only to research a little but to deliberate and debate with myself the multitude of complex issues which attach themselves to any argument that involves the middle east, I also wanted to be clear in my own mind with regards to any response I made on this issue.

The reason I mention my own deliberations is that it seems, on the evidence available, that everybody involved with this issue, weather it be on the ground or on this forum, gets caught up in the emotion that flows into a tide of immediate violent response. Be it literal or literary.

We seem to only be perpetuating a very tragic and, in terms of human suffering, costly cycle of action and reaction.
Who is winning this David and Golliath battle? Who are the winners? The Jews, the Gentiles, the arabs of other denominations?

I beleive their are no winners in the current conflict, only losers.
Israeli's and Palestinians both mourn their dead, they both have to bury them in the dirt regardless of what colours adorn the flag that flies up a pole on said soil.

Issac and Ishmail where brothers were they not? I read somewhere today that a large percentage of Palastinians are Christians, well as far as I know the only difference between Jew and Christian is the conspiracy of Flavius Valerius Constantinus and his taking advantage of the apostasy of the church, in that they tried to extricate themselves from the jews, were they all not beleivers in Yeshua anyway?
I could go on but I don't beleive history will solve anything here as there is too much of it and too much antipathy involved.

What may be the only answer is to break the cycle now and for the future.
An example, a child is born into an abusive enviroment, he/she grows up and in their own relationship perpetuate the violence in front of their own offspring, and so it continues.
Lets rise above the past and act like good, honest, peace loving, intelligent human beings, we're supposed to be evolving not devolving, which means we should be getting better, each generation a slight improvment on the last.

We should start in the classrooms and instead of laying the blame for our ills on someones doorstep consider how to better our lot, concentrate on the possitive as opposed to the negative, because to be quite honest with you, reading through these posts makes such depressing reading and an answer to the problems seems as far away as ever.
We need to try a new tact.
I also don't beleive having an ex millitary man with right wing agendas can benifit this delicate situation.
The same way I don't beleive Arrafat with all the Israeli blood on his hands should have any say in any new Israeli/Palastinian peace accord.
Lets start again, educate our young in the good things about each others cultures, this is where it all starts in the formative years, the hatred or love will sow its seeds.
It is , I beleive, easier to hate than to love, it takes more of a man to turn the other cheek, say I forgive you, than it does to pick up a gun.
I truely beleive that a real man can put down his arms and hold out his hand.
We should at least try.
We seem to just be playing the blame game, but as I said before it's a game with a horrendous cost and NO winners, why keep playing it????
If I play a FPS I don't enjoy I just put a different game in, same with music, it's about time we changed the record.
BTW there's a silver linning and a lesson to be learnt in every event no matter how tragic, sometimes it's a little hard to find but it's there for everyone, for me today, thinking about this and looking through various links I discovered this blogging thing.
Could anyone please tell me how you go about setting up to blog?

One last comment, one of the comments that sticks out the most for me today was one about people in Israel waking up and celebrating the death of the spititual leader of Hamas, I find two things very wrong with this;
On a practical level, the only leader Hamas has left out of the three they had up until recently is one Rantisi, who by all accounts isn't the most agreeable chap when it comes to negosiation.
On another level, it speaks volumes and sums up everything that's wrong that anybody would rejoice in the murder/killing/assassination/whatever verb you want to call it, of any other human being.

Why the hell did Sharon, even before he was elected, go to the Haram Al-Sharif mosque compound in October 2000? Why for G-ds sake did he do that???? What sort of leader (as he was to become) deliberatly goes out of his way to antagonise and enflame such a delicate situation? It just doesn't seem like the action of a logical and rational person, more like the rattling of a sabre, an aggressive war like stance from someone who never really quit the millitary.
I don't want to take sides but just a few things stick out, like memories of buses blown up in Haifa, where I myself once caught eggit on my journey down to Eliat, and Sharon going to that Mosque.

I shouldn't make my posts so long because then it puts people off reading them, maybe I should post more with less said in each, but as the Beatles said reference the "white album" when you've got so much to say get it out there and then you can get on with whatever's next.

"why did they kill a poor man on a wheelchair... and with a rocket??"

Does ANYONE here have any idea what crimes this man commited?
And apart from that, people here seem to think hitting him with a rocket is overkill. Please! enlighten me as to how we could have shot him?

The IDF would have had to fight its way to his house, that would cost hundreds of lives, to shoot him,

so quit saying trash when you have no idea what you are talking about.

"why did they kill a poor man on a wheelchair... and with a rocket??"

Does ANYONE here have any idea what crimes this man commited?
And apart from that, people here seem to think hitting him with a rocket is overkill. Please! enlighten me as to how we could have shot him?

The IDF would have had to fight its way to his house, that would cost hundreds of lives, to shoot him,

They couldn't have shot him from the helicopter with a rifle? really I wouldn't know, maybe they couldn't, but it seems the rocket is Israel's preffered method of executing people it doesn't have in custody.
Even if they had chosen a different method of killing him, it wouldn't change things too terribly much, it would still be an act that could lead only to more violence and serve no useful purpose.

We realize, of course, that it's only a matter of time before people with rocket launchers just sit and listen for the helicopters and then do the job.

Eye for an eye? Homicide bombing for a homicide bombing? Quite obviously, the Palestinians are willing to play that game in significant numbers.

The United States strongly denied any involvement in the assassination on Monday of Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and appealed for calm in the region following his death but DID NOT condemn this murder !

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=4620771

Let us compare the American action with that of the rest of the world:

UK condemns 'unlawful' Yassin killing :

Tony Blair today condemned Israel's assassination of the Hamas spritual leader,Ahmed Yassin, calling it a "setback" for the peace process.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/foreignaffairs/story/0,11538,1175312,00.html

Annan condemns Yassin killing; U.N. Council consults :

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan condemned Israel's assassination of Hamas
leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin on Monday and said it would do nothing to help Middle East peace efforts.

http://www.reuters.com/locales/newsArticle.jsp;:405f2c1f:5979195614b016f3?type=wo rldNews&locale=en_IN&storyID=4624489

http://tinyurl.com/2uzko

EU condemns Hamas leader killing

http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story.asp?StoryId=Cqf5Y0eidBwLKzwfZDc12Aw9 Szw5Jzs1LDq

Turkey condemns killing of Sheik Yassin

http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/262648.asp

Mubarak condemns Israeli assassination of Yassin

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-03/22/content_1378740.htm

Chirac condemns Israel's killing of Hamas leader

http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/040322174358.nd6tj5o8

Bulgaria Condemns Killing of Hamas Leader Yassin

http://www.novinite.com/newsletter/print.php?id=32519

Vatican condemns killing of Sheikh Yassin

http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en58286&F_catID=&f_type=source

SA condemns assassination of Hamas founder

http://www.sabcnews.com/south_africa/general/0,2172,76368,00.html

Indonesia condemns Hamas killing

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,9049118%255E1702,00.html

European Jews for a Just Peace: Statement on the assassination of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin:

We wish to express our feelings of outrage and horror at the targeted killing of
Sheikh Ahmed Yassin by the Israeli army .

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5921.htm

Gush Shalom Condemns Assassination:

The assassination of Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, with its concomitant careless killing of passers-by, is a mad provocative act by a government which lost all
restraint.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5919.htm
And the americans wonder why we hate them !!! :mad:

cool :bugeye:

Can you please elaborate more ?

Can you?

:m: Peace.

Your last comment was.....

"And the americans wonder why we hate them !!! "

Who is We?
Muslims as a whole? Fundamentalist Muslims? The Whole World? Just you? People in your country (whichever country that may be)?

Who are the Americans?
it's people? It's politicians? It's military leaders? It's press secretary?

And why do you hate people, don't you realise that hatred is the kind of things which creates murder. your attitude seems no better than that of the people you claim are out of control.

I just don't understand why people are so angry.

when i say angry, i mean people in general, not specifically over the killing of the Sheikh, which was a tragic event.

Your last comment was.....

"And the americans wonder why we hate them !!! "

Who is We?
Muslims as a whole? Fundamentalist Muslims? The Whole World? Just you? People in your country (whichever country that may be)?

Well, My country is SYRIA ( another reason to hate America ), we is MUSLIMS with all their affiliations: extremists, moderates..etc

Who are the Americans?
it's people? It's politicians? It's military leaders? It's press secretary?

The American public because as you know in democracies there is NO difference between the people and the government.

And why do you hate people, don't you realise that hatred is the kind of things which creates murder. your attitude seems no better than that of the people you claim are out of control.

It is very nice to sit from the comfort of your home in America and preach about hate !!! I beg you to have a visit to the occupied palestinean land just for 1 week and I guarantte you will understand what the word HATE really means !!

I just don't understand why people are so angry.

We are angry because the Israeli COWARS used AMERICAN provided Apachi with 3 AMERICAN missiles to kill an old man in wheel chair just few steps from a mosque...we are angry because the whole world condemned this israeli cowardly murder apart from America !! do you understand why the Muslim world is now boiling in rage !!! and you know very well what this rage can produce !! :(

The American public because as you know in democracies there is NO difference between the people and the government.

No of course not. There's no difference. Leave aside the fact that the majority disagree with their Government. Forget the fact that there are many Muslims who form part of the American public. Just ignore all of that. Place them all in the same basket and blame them all the same way. Kind of the same as when the uneducated few out there blame all Muslims for terrorist attacks... because after all, the dickheads who flew the planes on 9/11, who blew up the bombs in Bali and Madrid were all Muslims right? So that would mean that there's no difference between them and the rest of the Muslim population around the world. Do you see where I'm going with this PM? You blame the whole for the actions of the few.

Bells:

I am still waiting to hear your condemnation for the Israeli muder which did not only kill shiekh Ahmad yassin but also the raid killed 9 innocent worshippers !!!! :bugeye:

?

I would have assumed that any person who read my posts on this issue would have realised that I find Isreal's actions in killing Yassin to be wrong and basically pretty damned stupid.


PS. And if I'm ever unfortunate enough to go into politics, I'll be sure to make any condemnation clearer for you :rolleyes:

look at that, eh... (hey, PM, check it out)
[extremely graphic. don't look if you just ate]
http://members.rogers.com/9o9/y/y1.jpg
http://members.rogers.com/9o9/y/y2.jpg
that's what you get if you kill our children
(notice how the arabs quickly took these disgusting pic and made them available on the net for every big network and duped westerner to see)

but, at least he's where he wanted to be, right?
http://members.rogers.com/9o9/y/yp1.jpg
http://members.rogers.com/9o9/y/yp2.jpg
http://members.rogers.com/9o9/y/yp3.jpg
http://members.rogers.com/9o9/y/yp4.jpg
http://members.rogers.com/9o9/y/yp5.jpg
because every Muslim yearns to be a martyr :rolleyes:
altho these 5 are no virgins...

they're used to be living in shit conditions
i meant that it never made them suicidal maniacs before, and it's not the reason now.

It seems to me that Jordanian control of the West Bank wasn't nearly as problematic to the Palestinians as living under the Israeli occupation
of course. they don't want a "national home" if Jordan is there. only when Israel took over they decided to ask for one.

and besides, when Arabs kill Arabs, the world doesn't care.
when Abdullah the father, killed 10,000 palestinians in one day in Jordan in 1970-something, no body said anything
'palestinians' were scared shitless though.
it gave example to the rest of them in the other countries not to ask for anything.
and then, the arab leaders directed the blame on Israel.

cause you see, it's Israel's fault that the palestinians are being suppressed in all the countries they live in as refugees.
they don't get full property rights and are not allowed to work inside their 'host' countries (these are reserved for citizens only).. except some exceptions.
they don't get emancipated.


hype:
your quotes from UN, those are not definitions. they say "all forms of terrorism is bad"
but they don't say what it is exactly.
also "all criminal acts that create terror"
which are?

and where are the resolutions to fight "terror"?
all this vague language is on purpose, so they won't have to commit themselves to anything they don't really want to do

i don't see UN lifting one finger to fight Arafat or Hamas
not even General Assembly resolutions... let alone Security Council resolutions.

So you feel no guilt or shame that they were run off their lands and out of their homes
how is it their lands? they were immigrants to Palestine from syria, iraq, lebanon, egypt, lybia, etc. etc. just like the European Jewry were from east europe
baby, you were duped into believing they're a "people"! read some history

and why should i feel shame for what the 7 arab armies did?
they're the ones who created the refugee problem in the 1st place. let them deal with it

that's what you get if you kill our children, fucker!Something about the current culture of the death-cult goes here. Wipe your mouth.i don't see UN lifting one finger to fight Arafat or Hamas
not even General Assembly resolutions... let alone Security Council resolutions.(A) The problem is not Arafat or Hamas, but rather Israel, which maintains an illegal military occuptaion.
(B) The United States is the primary obstacle at the UN when it comes to dealing with Israel.

More Israeli aggression against Gaza, just in the Israeli navy is shelling...yes you heard me shelling Gaza. I will provide a link ASAP!

how is it their lands? they were immigrants to Palestine from syria, iraq, lebanon, egypt, lybia, etc. etc. just like the European Jewry were from east europe


Actually that is a lie; all the stats show that there were hundreds of thousands of Arabs living on that land well before the first Zionist set foot on that land. 1820 the population was 332,000 persons. Do tell me how did all those Yids get there so fast?

and why should i feel shame for what the 7 arab armies did?


You should feel shame for illegally occupying, colonizing, and aculturalizing a people who are the victims of European crimes.

they're the ones who created the refugee problem in the 1st place. let them deal with it

Like the Lehi gang didn't help perpetrate that exodus of about 700,000 innocent Arabs?

holy shit...
this (http://www.alburaq.net/forum/thread.cfm?CFB=1&Tid=36516) is the most graphic shit i've ever seen in my life!

WHY ARE THEY POSTING THIS?

out of respect for the dear "spiritual leader" i suppose
...
who should wipe off what, tiassa?

Jewish body parts look different probably.. maybe that's why the world reacts so strongly to Yassin's death, but not to Jewish deaths

who should wipe off what, tiassa?Wipe the blood off your mouth, you vampire. At least have some decency. Jewish body parts look different probably.. maybe that's why the world reacts so strongly to Yassin's death, but not to Jewish deathsIs there a part of this discussion that you're willing to conduct with your head not safely ensconced where the sun don't shine?

I would make a point about world reaction here, but you ignored it last time in order to be a smarmy punk.

Keep on celebrating death and destruction. We see what you're made of.

if only you were so emotional after every suicide bombing you f*ckin hypocrite!

if only you were so emotional after every suicide bombing you f*ckin hypocrite!More repugnant to me than the war declared against Palestinians is the celebration of murder in the name of righteousness.

More honest than Golda Meier in the modern day would be the phrase, "We can forgive the Palestinians for killing our children, but not for causing us to become Nazis." However, the Israelis seem to enjoy it so much that there's nothing to forgive.

What does one want in the end? What is important? Peace and stability, or the rhetoric of "victory"?

The Israeli line doesn't make any sense: We're going to occupy territory that's not ours, put Israeli human shields out there, and then complain about the backlash.

Israel's in charge over there. They draw the battle lines.

Two factors to consider:

• Mandatory service in the IDF
• "Civilian" colonists

Mandatory service in the IDF does not automatically make every Israeli child a future enemy of the Palestinians, but it does blur the line somewhat, as a military campaign must not only account for the present, but disrupting the future of the conflict for the enemy.

The problem of civilian colonists or settlers is that they are essentially human shields in an occupation; a slow version of what we criticized so greatly in the West about Saddam Hussein and his forces.

As a general principle, I look to the authority to be responsible during a time of crisis; the uprising, resistance, opposition, &c., is not given a blanket endorsement to mayhem and murder, but this is war and occupation, and the rules of this engagement are so perverse that events are only taken in consideration of the situation; nothing can be compared against naked and neutral principle, as nothing is so directly honest or clear in that fight.

You might also recall that my initial point in this topic to which you responded had to do with the overkill and terroristic intent of not just taking down your target, but trying to kill and injure other people as well. If I accept the Israeli line, then a terrorist setting off a dirty bomb in Jerusalem will only draw a radiologically-based objection from me as long as it hits a "dangerous" target (e.g. police or military facility), and the collateral damage of such an attack would be considered somehow "acceptable".

Such a condition is so absurd to me that it is strong enough in itself to reject the Israeli line without further consideration. I demand responsibility of my own nation in times of warfare, I expect it of others. In the end it is bodies of people that are important to me, and the fact remains that the world faces a choice: endorse Israeli injustice or oppose it. At the center of this damned conflict is an illegal occupation that the United States has helped shepherd. Between boasts of Al Qaeda with a nuke and Palestinian organizations threatening the US, I suppress a chortle out of respect to the situation in general, and note that the one thing I can tell from the situation is that treating the "Islamic threat" the way we have has only served to piss off more people.

Here's an intersting question, but for another day: What if the Israeli people are the victims insofar as the US is willing to play this game solely in order to manipulate the Middle East?

The only real difference is that instead of serving a "Jewish master" :rolleyes: the blueblooded institutions of America would, in fact, be robbing them.

It's all a big f@cking mess. I just don't see how your refusal to take the situation seriously, or your need to be so damned disrespectful could possibly help anything.

~Bomb has been planted~




Yassin: WTF!!!!!!!!


KERSLAM!



~Counter-terrorists win~


Sharon: gg noob



:rolleyes:

He Otheadp!
WHY ARE THEY POSTING THIS?
Same reason you provided the link. To demonstrate their 'point.'

I think if it wasn't for this murder/death thing I believe you and PM could be happy flatmates. If you had a spare room Vienna could move in too.
The similarities outweigh the differences.

Anybody else round here think this or is it just me?
Dee Cee

this is an occupation but not of "palestinian" land. rather of disputed land.

whatever the conflict may be, NOTHING justifies what Israeli citizens have gone through in teh past 3 years.
nothing

eliminating terrorists is a moral obligation of every government
i'll expand later

this is an occupation but not of "palestinian" land. rather of disputed land.

Disputed because it is Pal. land, in any case it is not Israeli.

Re: Yassin corpse pictures

I'm thinking about getting out an old FPS and naming one of the bots "Yassin" so I can just hit it with rockets over and over again. Unfortunately, there is no "wheelchair-bound, decrepit man being escorted from a mosque" setting, so there's only so much realism I can enjoy. Of course, we'll be warring at a castle on an asteroid, so ... yeah, that sounds about right.

I hope the Israelis aren't disappointed that there's enough of him left to put on a cracker.

but, at least he's where he wanted to be, right?
http://members.rogers.com/9o9/y/yp1.jpg
http://members.rogers.com/9o9/y/yp2.jpg
http://members.rogers.com/9o9/y/yp3.jpg
http://members.rogers.com/9o9/y/yp4.jpg
http://members.rogers.com/9o9/y/yp5.jpg
because every Muslim yearns to be a martyr :rolleyes:
altho these 5 are no virgins... ROFL/ :D

Gandalf doing pr0n :bugeye:

I really do wish that I had NOT looked at the photos of Yassin while eating my vegemite on toast. You ruined my breakfast.

Oth

I suggest you read some real history and anthropology books child. Archaeologists (Jewish ones mind you :) ) have found that the Palestinians resided in what you call Isreal since before the time of Jesus. In fact, the evidence has shown that what later became to be known as the Palestinians and the Jews native to the area actually developed alongside each other (just picture tribes).

they're the ones who created the refugee problem in the 1st place. let them deal with it
Ah really? Interesting. So the fact that they were forced out of their homes to accomodate YOU means nothing? I know what you could do! Bomb them all and then you can take ALL their land without having to deal with them pestering you to give them their land back. Live guilt free. Out of sight, out of mind. :mad:

DeeCee is right. You are like all the PM's and Vienna's out there, only with different doctrines.

I am feeling left out. :(
Well, I guess my saving grace is that I am just a tad more subtle.

[edited] And perhaps my disturbing belief that we are just really smart animals with guns and while ethics rarely means jack irrational behavior can doom us all. I guess depression has its upsides.

But you've had time to adjust and refine, Clockwood.

A very silly song comes to mind; "It's all in how you say it."

bells i'm sorry about your breakfast, but i did put a disclaimer up.

if you believe those arabs that call themselves 'palestinians' today are there from the time before Jesus, you are sadly mistaken.
in fact, you're goofily mistaken. what on earth are you reading?

civilian colonists or settlers
those people that are called "settlers", who live in the "settlements", as emotionally described in the media, are Israelis, who live in villages and towns.

calling the people "settlers" and the towns and villages as "settlements" implies that they should not be there, that they are on foreign land, that they are a colonialist adventure.
that's biased reporting, which influences world opinion (evidently)

also saying that they should not be there is advocating ethnic cleansing.
nobody is asking them to stay there and accept a 'palestinian' government.
they are being told (with bombings, rockets, and massacres of whole families by infiltrators with AK-47s) to leave the place where they've lived for 3 generations (8 generations in some cases e.g. Hevron) so a pure, homogenized arab population will be there.
in the case of Gaza, we're not even talking about a huge Jewish population. a ridiculously small number of 8500 Jews, living among over 1,200,000 arabs.
but even that is too much for the arabs or the world
it must be pure!

We're going to occupy territory that's not ours
there was not a single state in the area formerly known as 'palestine' since the ancient states of Israel and Judah. it was always occupied by some foreign power, but never a sovereign state.
that's until the UN partition allocated some land for a Jewish state, and some land for an arab state (where Jordan is now)

then, the Jewish part (20% of what was originally promissed) was even furtherly split, to create an additional arab state.

that was rejected by the arabs, they launched a "war of extermination" against us (1948), lost, created refugees, annexed 'west bank' and gaza, launched another war (1967), more refugees, lost 'west bank' and gaza, another war (1973), more land lost and more refugees....

1) there's a pattern of them invading, losing, whining about it, and blaming it on us
2) there has to be a price for aggression
3) wherever there is good faith on the other side, we are willing to negotiate (e.g., Sinai with Egypt... almost did Golan with Syria)

this conflict is not about 'palestinians' vs. Israel. it is about the middle east vs. Israel.

the arab states have to clean up their mess.
and it is not the land of some arab immigrants to 'palestine' (biblical palestine, btw, includes iraq, jordan, and south syria... and even lebanon if i'm not mistaken)... so there's nothing to "return" to a fictitious "people"

but even considering this fact, if there is goodwill from the arab world, and a genuine will to stop this ridiculous genocidal terrorism campaign for extermination, we are willing to talk!

but in the mean time, we will protect our citizenry.

spiritual leader (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12700), eh?

as for the new "democratically elected" "spiritual leader" of Hamas, Dr. Abdel-Aziz al-Rantisi (a child physician / killer), his positions are nice and clean
in line with Dr. Mengale and Ayman al-Zawahiri

"the palestinian nation must cleanse its soil (http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/1121-2.stm)" from zionists
and "suicide bombings will continue whether the palestinian people support it or not"

but Rantisi's son, unfortunately, will not be participating (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/726468/posts). he is clearing the way for other martyrs to blow evil bus-riding children-of-zionists

how nice of him

So one asshole is splattered and replaced by another, while Israelis, Jews everywhere, and Americans brace for vicious reprisals, Palestinians brace for reprisals for reprisals, and the Roadmap to War is seared into thousands more angy minds. This assassination was worthwhile why?

I think it could be because the Likud is preparing the Final Solution for the Palestinian Ghettos.

Source: United Nations (http://www.un.org/); Miftah (http://www.miftah.org/)
Article link: http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3337&CategoryId=8
Article date: March 18, 2004
Article title: "Question of the Violation of Human Rights in the Occupied Arab Territories, Including Palestine," by John Dugard (Commission on Human Rights)

United Nations rapporteur John Dugard released last month an addendum to the Special Rapporteur's report of September, 2003:The situation in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) continues to be a matter of grave concern. Although the road map promoted by the Quartet offers some prospect of peace in the region, it is important to record that the past six months have seen continued violations of human rights and international humanitarian law.

Terrorism is a constant feature of the conflict in the OPT and neighbouring Israel. Both Palestinians and Israelis have been responsible for inflicting a reign of terror on innocent civilians. Measures must be taken to prevent terrorism, but not at the expense of fundamental principles of law.The above is from the report summary; a PDF link is available at the Miftah page.

I would refer here to earlier posts of mine:

• "This wasn't about just killing Yassin. The Israelis could have done that with a rifle. The terroristic rocket attack was designed to hurt and kill more Palestinians than just the target."

• "(P)roperly-dispatched soldiers in a legitimate conflict can be 'homicide bombers.' Properly-dispatched pilots in a legitimate conflict can be 'homicide bombers.' The Israeli death squads are 'homicide bombers.' Actually, they're 'homicide rocketeers' . . . ."

• "Any nation that wants to be part of the world community has an obligation to respect that community."

• "More repugnant to me than the war declared against Palestinians is the celebration of murder in the name of righteousness . . . . More honest than Golda Meier in the modern day would be the phrase, 'We can forgive the Palestinians for killing our children, but not for causing us to become Nazis.' However, the Israelis seem to enjoy it so much that there's nothing to forgive."

A note for Otheadp: The issue isn't about whether or not Israel has the right to defend itself; the Palestinians also declare their right to resist an illegal occupation, and the paper record in the World Community reflects the illegality of that occupation. What bothers me, Otheadp, about your response to the world reaction to Israeli terrorism is that if we apply the Israeli justifications to, say, the American War on Terror, there is an easy solution to handling Osama bin Laden - get an approximate notion of his location in, say, Pakistan and nuke the area.

The issues aren't necessarily about the right of defense or revenge, but rather of scale and method.

Terrorists win when nations forfeit rule of law and abandon justice in their quest for vengeance in the guise of security.

All Israel accomplishes with these sorts of murders is a public admission in forty-mile high burning letters on the mountainside: "Sorry, we're too stupid to think of anything better."

This great brave MARTYER scared Israel alive and is scaring Israel from his grave !!!

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-03/23/article06.shtml


Fear Grips Israel After Yassin Assassination

The Israeli army, police and domestic security service all stepped up their level of alert in the wake of the barbaric helicopter raid.
Police reinforcements were deployed in shopping malls across Israel and security was raised on buses, police said, adding that the alert could be maintained for several weeks...

A Thrill Of Fear

Sitting among a small handful of people travelling on the number 18 bus heading into town, Nili Davidor, a 17-year-old from occupied Jerusalem who is just about to enter the army, admitted that despite her apparently calm exterior, she was actually very scared. "This [assassination] won't stop them, it will do the complete opposite and there will be more attacks," she said...

----------

May Allah Almighty bless your soul, Shiekh Yassin, your martyrdom is an example for all Muslims, lucky you, lucky you, lucky you !!

http://www.islamonline.net/english/Media/2004/03/YassinTheMan/images/yassin_02.jpg

oh tiassa...
you are so cute
it is very fine being rhiteous when sitting in a nice comfy sofa, stoned, in the US of A, being phylosophical about the world's evils

when shit starts exploding in your neighbourhood, we'll see what you will say.

Otheadp

It would have been nice, in this discussion, if you'd put any effort into it whatsoever.

Seriously--let's imagine that Hamas or Hizb Allah manages to lob one into the US. Now let's pretend that the US knows exactly who did it and where he is.

Now let's use a nuke to cover the area.

With at least half of Jerusalem missing, Israelis dying in the millions, and the Jewish state shattered, would you be upset? Why? The United States has the right to defend itself.when shit starts exploding in your neighbourhood, we'll see what you will say.I will cry for my neighbor's children in Seattle no more or less than I cry for my neighbor's children in Iraq or Afghanistan, Sudan, Uganda, Liberia . . . .

I'm aware that there's a war afoot, Otheadp. When "they" finally reach US soil for a sustained campaign, it's no more than we deserve.

Remember that Americans, by and large, want wars. Wars are good for our economy and our hegemony.

So don't tell me about my fucking neighborhood. My immediate neighbors hold their lawns in higher esteem than their children.
Anarchism is the great liberator of man from the phantoms that have held him captive; it is the arbiter and pacifier of the two forces for individual and social harmony. To accomplish that unity, Anarchism has declared war on the pernicious influences which have so far prevented the harmonious blending of individual and social instincts, the individual and society.

Religion, the dominion of the human mind; Property, the dominion of human needs; and Government, the dominion of human conduct, represent the stronghold of man's enslavement and all the horrors it entails. Religion! How it dominates man's mind, how it humiliates and degrades his soul. God is everything, man is nothing, says religion. But out of that nothing God has created a kingdom so despotic, so tyrannical, so cruel, so terribly exacting that naught but gloom and tears and blood have ruled the world since gods began. Anarchism rouses man to rebellion against this black monster. Break your mental fetters, says Anarchism to man, for not until you think and judge for yourself will you get rid of the dominion of darkness, the greatest obstacle to all progress.

Property, the dominion of man's needs, the denial of the right to satisfy his needs. Time was when property claimed a divine right, when it came to man with the same refrain, even as religion, "Sacrifice! Abnegate! Submit!" The spirit of Anarchism has lifted man from his prostrate position. He now stands erect, with his face toward the light. He has learned to see the insatiable, devouring, devastating nature of property, and he is preparing to strike the monster dead . . . .

. . . . Indeed, the keynote of government is injustice. With the arrogance and self-sufficiency of the King who could do no wrong, governments ordain, judge, condemn, and punish the most insignificant offenses, while maintaining themselves by the greatest of all offenses, the annihilation of individual liberty. Thus Ouida is right when she maintains that "the State only aims at instilling those qualities in its public by which its demands are obeyed, and its exchequer is filled. Its highest attainment is the reduction of mankind to clockwork. In its atmosphere all those finer and more delicate liberties, which require treatment and spacious expansion, inevitably dry up and perish . . . ." (Emma Goldman (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/anarchism.html))Religion, property, government. It's a matter of what anyone wants in the end. Victory or justice? Victory or peace? Pride of old or new pride?

Very simply: If callous recklessness is the best Israel can manage in "defense" of itself, then no, it does not have the right to carry out that defense.

I hold others to the same standard: Liberians United for Reconciliation and Democracy should be indicted as war criminals for their indifferent and even intentional shelling of civilians.

All is fair in love and war? Not if you're part of human society.

All is fair in love and war? Not if you're part of human society.
that's a matter of opinion.
you seem to disagree, but that is because you haven't experience a personal loss, or very recent genocidal actions against your people. and no, i'm not talking about fellow Seattle residents (although that would be sufficient).

i'll repeat -
it is very fine being rhiteous when sitting in a nice comfy sofa, stoned, in the US of A, being phylosophical about the world's evils, when you are not personally affected - when your personal existence is not at risk - when your children are not at risk - when your children have not been blown to pieces (G-d forbid!)

this rhiteous position you're taking, from the comfort of the sofa, is irrelevant and invalid.

all is valid in love and war. moral superiority never defeated anyone... and it certainly does not give you good press coverage.

considering what Israel has been through, it has conducted itself extremely morally

I remember in Canada during WWII, (when there was a big panic, without even a single attack on Canadian soil) the Japanese-Canadians were one of many groups who were sent to internment camps. nice eh?

guess what, even now, after numerous Israeli Arabs personally involved in terrorism, giving help to the enemy, Arab MK's meeting with enemy officials, treterous diatribe by citizens, they still enjoy equal rights (there's always room for improvement, but institutionally, it's equal rights)

imagine an Oklahoma bombing once a week... the US would've carpet bombed Gaza and 'west bank'
so would other country

you say Israel is immoral? i say keep toking buddy

to give you a better understanding i'll give you an example -

would you kill someone with your bare hands?
would you kill someone with your bare hands if they killed someone's child far away from your view?
would you kill someone with your bare hands if they killed someone's child in front of your eyes?
would you kill someone with your bare hands if they killed yourchild in front of your eyes?

you would be screaming and foaming "fuck jail and fuck rules" and you'd get down to business.

incredibly enough, successive governments in Israel, for 3.5 years, has been looking at its children being slaughtered in front of their eyes, and responding in the most pathetically minimal (http://www.masada2000.org/FightFair.html) ways.

Pothead, we're all agreed that personal rage and revenge are undeniable responses to murders and trauma. Traumatized individuals who commit revenge killing may even gain personal sympathy from some, but in civilized society they nevertheless forfeit their freedom- or in fundamentalist states, often forfeit their lives. In much the same way, states large and small face serious consequences for behavior that is not only excessive, but dangerous to international order. It is not necessary for an ideal UN or other higher international power to exist, for there to be serious, if gradually accumulating penalties, as profound as those that are older than Torah regarding individual vigilantes.

For all of the Bush Administration rhetoric and collusion, Israel's war on Terror does not justify the unleashing of Total War, nor incremental crippling state attacks directed upon civilians and civilian infrastructure. In the present highly assymetrical Palestinian-Arab war, a state, as legal institution, is required by written and unwritten conventions of legitimacy to exercise much restraint, even while opposing the most vicious terrorists who heed no law whatsoever. Crossing the line beyond acceptable restraint, a state becomes gradually more subject to tangible and intangible sanctions directly impacting political and economic viability; In the extreme, this trend can reduce a state effectively to equivalent illigitimacy in the eyes of the world as the terrorist being retaliated upon.

Because Israel is eroding her legitimacy in the eyes of the world outside, and because this is a very difficult commodity to repair or recoup, there is danger in pushing it too far, and reaching a breaking point.

The United States is arguably in a similar process of losing authority in the world, producing instances of considerable "shock and awe" when it is discovered in lofty places that military superiority can not untangle every gordian knot of hostility. A popular, but fatally flawed old paradigm held that total warfare is the last resort of states in conflict when all else fails. The United States and Israel are presently both behaving in ignorance of demonstrated fact that war in the face of terrorism 1) can fuel the growth and mutation of terrorist movements, and 2) can undermine the international legitimacy of the state conducting traditional warfare against terrorists.

Confusing total warfare as a "last resort" creates a fatal obsession whereby even a militarily dominant state can exhaust itself in trying to annihilate an enemy structured in such a way that destruction through primarily military action is impossible, no matter to what degree of escalation, logically not to exclude even strategic nuclear weapons.

If the illusion that War on Terror is truly a last resort holds out until the end in Israel, the conflict has intensifying risk of ending in a national Masada. An obsessive military response to terrorism requires ever greater application of force, in a feedback cycle of greater violence that can only have one horrific conclusion.

That is not the only danger that must be considered. In the particular case of the Israeli-Palestinian war, a threshhold has already been crossed where further escalation decreases the political capital of Israel, while increasing it on the Palestinian side. Even without blind escalation into total war, both Israel and the United States face unpredictable threshholds of economic paralysis, because neither state is independent of the world outside.

I suspect that this unpredictable risk is very much on the mind of Ariel Sharon and his strategists, and they are entering a high-stakes period of gambling with deliberate escalation, which they intend to continue to the razor edge of the economic breaking point, which is unknown, with the objective of breaking the Palestinians, which is impossible: If every Arab in Palestine were killed tomorrow, the Palestinian diaspora and Arab world in general would continue the fight.

Israel must get off the gas and on the brakes now, because something unexpected in the near future, as this war speeds up beyond the reaction time of human reason, may be catastrophic.

I think Depeche Mode got it right:

You wear guilt
Like shackles on your feet
Like a halo in reverse

I can feel
The discomfort in your seat
And in your head it's worse

There's a pain
A famine in your heart
An aching to be free

Can't you see
All love's luxuries
Are here for you and me

And when our worlds they fall apart
When the walls come tumbling in
Though we may deserve it
It will be worth it

Bring your chains
Your lips of tragedy
And fall into my arms

And when our worlds they fall apart
When the walls come tumbling in
Though we may deserve it
It will be worth it

Song: Halo


To me that is exactly the mentality of these two sides. The world around them is falling apart and they deserve it, but hey to save face it's worth it. Thanks Depeche!

The U.N. Human Rights Commission has adopted a resolution condemning Israel for the assassination of Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin. The vote was 31 in favor, two against and 18 abstentions.

http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=DF23425C-6046-465D-847386D0617AB0B3

that's a matter of opinion.You're right. It is not a matter of fact that

• 191 states are party to the Geneva Conventions of 1949
• 161 states are parties to the Additional Protocol I
• 156 states are parties to the Additional Protocol II

While it's true that both Israel and the United States are noted to hold a "Reservation/Declaration," which indicates a "unilateral statement . . . made by a State when ratifying, acceding, or succeeding to a treaty, whereby it purports to exclude or to modify the legal effect of certain provisions of the treaty in their application to that State . . . ," so, too, are the good folks of, say, Canada, Germany, Poland, and New Zealand . . . . (Yemen, Iran, both Koreas . . . .)

The larger point being that it's a matter of fact that nations have agreed that all is not fair in love and war.you seem to disagree, but that is because you haven't experience a personal loss, or very recent genocidal actions against your people.One of the "nice things" about being able to bomb our enemies from thousands of miles away is being thousands of miles away in the first place. Our American occupation of Iraq even has a rubber-stamp legality that the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories does not, and while 9/11 shows that oceans on two and a half sides of us can't protect us entirely, it's still a matter of comfort. Were we occupying, say, Mexico, and the backlash merely had to cross an abstract line in the dirt to get here, Americans would feel significantly differently about their military occupation.i'll repeat -
it is very fine being rhiteous when sitting in a nice comfy sofa, stoned, in the US of A, being phylosophical about the world's evils , when you are not personally affected - when your personal existence is not at risk - when your children are not at risk - when your children have not been blown to pieces (G-d forbid!)

this rhiteous position you're taking, from the comfort of the sofa, is irrelevant and invalid.End the illegal occupation by Israel. Give me some substantial, and not merely political leverage against an unreasonable response to an unreasonable situation.all is valid in love and war. moral superiority never defeated anyone... and it certainly does not give you good press coverage.Then don't whine at me about being personally affected. If you endorse the illegal occupation, then you accept its results.considering what Israel has been through, it has conducted itself extremely morallyNow that is a matter of opinion.
imagine an Oklahoma bombing once a week... the US would've carpet bombed Gaza and 'west bank'
so would other country I refer you to the above bit about occupying Mexico.you say Israel is immoral? i say keep toking buddy Now that's a convincing argument.

This is the game Israel chooses to play. This is the price they will pay. End the illegal occupation and you give the world greater leverage against the bombings.

The world is already aware of the situation that Israel apparently cannot afford, of all things, any sense of justice, due process, or rule of legitimate law. Even I'm stunned by the poetic aspect of what Israel has become.would you kill someone with your bare hands?
would you kill someone with your bare hands if they killed someone's child far away from your view?
would you kill someone with your bare hands if they killed someone's child in front of your eyes?
would you kill someone with your bare hands if they killed your child in front of your eyes?No; no; how did I fail to prevent the killing; same issue, but acknowledging the strong possibility of such irrationality that yes, I would.you would be screaming and foaming "fuck jail and fuck rules" and you'd get down to business. It might make me feel better in the moment, but who pretends it would help anything?

If killing Palestinians is just about feeling better ... come on, despite my frustration with Israel's role in the situation, I have a better opinion of Israelis than that.

I generally claim to defer to rule of law, and no matter how much it might hurt, it doesn't change the fact that I would be murdering someone. Nor does your example for a "better understanding" even pause to consider why someone would be killing my child. Arbitrarily? Certes, that's one thing. But if my kid gets killed in front of my eyes while stealing from and brutalizing others, yeah ... killing someone might make me feel better but hey--at