Israel normalizes trade ties with Iraq (http://www.menareport.com/story/TheNews.php3?sid=254740&lang=e&dir=mena)

marking the Jewish state’s recognition of Iraq as a hostile-free nation

I dont think Iraqi agree . Oh well , maybe they can vote on it someday .

Israeli companies can now trade and invest in Iraq without facing any sanctions from the government

Yes exploit

A group of Israeli industrial representatives reportedly made a trip to Baghdad last month in order to scope out business opportunities related to the reconstruction effort.

Yeah lets go check out the goods

According to Haaretz, a number of Israeli firms are planning to open commercial offices in Iraq and are looking into the possibility of appointing local agents in the country.

Yeah settlements

US commerce officials have advised Israeli firms interested in reconstruction deals team up with Jordanian counterparts.

Yeah go with those trators they'll help ya out .....
Toobad they gonna have to settle for becoming a "community" rather than a state soon enough though .......

http://www.menareport.com/img/news/200306/251511_P1.gif

Barf !!!!
:mad:

lol

How twisted and demented you are Ghassan Kanafani, I guess any other nations that have corporate ventures in Iraq are also as vile? Is Syria and Iran trying to take over Iraq with is their evil corporations?

How uninformed you are WellCookedFetus .

Is Iraq to be included in greater Persia or greater Syria ? Yes ?

However it is in the map of Yeretz Isroel , you dont seem to understand that to certain peoples (who happen to run that shithole today) every inch on that map is theirs , weither that inch is in Saudi Arabia , in Iraq , in Syria , in Jordan or in Palestine .

http://www.mediamonitors.net/images/israelsgranddesign.gif

Do Syria & iran have any means to become influential coorporal in a new Iraq ? Are Syrian & Iranian governments consider democratic and non-hostile as Iraq is considered by USA and Israel today ?

But besides all of this , who is getting the contracts today ?

How naive of you ......

Oh I was aware of that. sure the contracts go to the winners of war and its allies, its not called war profiteering for nothing.

Also as for Israel achieving its biblically foretold holly land when that happens Jesus will come back and annihilate or convert all disbeliever, isn’t it just wonderful how the world is rule by christen fundamentalist that pay the Jewish state solely for the purpose of bring back their god?

MUTUAL expoitation. Its the basis for all trade and it helps people both sides. Nobody trades unless they can make some money off of it.

Brother Ghassan:

Dont worry to much, the puppets in Iraq are trying now to please the American terrorists who occupy their land, soon, after we kick the american ass from Iraq, IsraHELL will be back on the black list.

Dont worry too much...did you see what the normal iraqis did when they heard a rumors that an oil pipe line is sending Iraqi oil to Israel ?? THEY BLEW IT UP................

So, I am not that worried.

That should mean Iraq will have less money to work with and will have an even slower recovery.

Originally posted by Clockwood
That should mean Iraq will have less money to work with and will have an even slower recovery.

If you think trading with nazi Israel will help the Iraqis recover, then you are too navie my friend.

By definition trading helps. You give them something you dont need in exchange for somthing you do or the money to buy it with. Iraq gives oil and Israel or whoever else is buying gives money, goods, or services to Iraq.

If its not benificial for you to trade with somebody you just find somebody else to trade with. Its not like a pipeline will suck the oil out of iraq without anybody's control.

If its not benificial for you to trade with somebody you just find somebody else to trade with. Its not like a pipeline will suck the oil out of iraq without anybody's control.

So tell us Clockwood, since there is no Iraqi government save that appointed by the US military (as opposed to elected by the Iraqi people), who is controlling what trade agreements are signed???
And by what authority are they signing them?

Ghassan I find your last post disturbing. That map of a "greater israel" from tne nile till the euphrates. I never saw it in israel, I never heard of it beeing put in schools or used for education, and I never heard an Israeli (yes and I am fond of political arguments with my fellow citizans) say we need that kind of land. The biggest fanatics wanted an Israel ruling both sides of the jordan river but that was 50 years ago, most Israelis support the Idea of 67' borders more or less. So what if there are fanatics who want more? its the majority that counts.

I really cant understand the point of the map or the implication that we are trying to "settle" iraq..

Axes:

Out of curiousity, would you consider these options:

1) Land split, in approx 50-50 ratio, thus establishing a fully independant autonomous state of Palestine. Jerusalem would have to be under some sort of "Separate" neutral jurisdiction.

or:

2) Complete state of Palestine, Jews given full citizenship as they have in any other country.

MUTUAL expoitation. Its the basis for all trade and it helps people both sides. Nobody trades unless they can make some money off of it.

OK so you tell me which company in Iraq can invest in Israel? Also since Iraqi bureaucrats are littered with Bat'thists you think the US would allow that? The only side who is going to make $$ is Israel... But it is clockwood, what else do i expect. It's like saying that East Timor will not be exploited. :rolleyes:

Axes

I know you are in the IDF, I was also wondering are you wiling to accept this for Israel:

http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/arton2059.jpg

With Jerusalem under UN control? Hey Ben Gurion was wiling to accept that.

With Jerusalem under UN control? Hey Ben Gurion was wiling to accept that. [/B][/QUOTE]


Ben Gurion was willing to accept it, the arabs didnt, so in my opinion its their peoblem. Times change things change, and in the areas Israel captured in this war now live millions of jews, so this map is irrelevant. Both Israelis and palestiniens agree on a line somewere in the former 1967 borders and I support this Idea. Palestiniens deserve their independence and Israelis security. Question is is it feasable now...

Both sides are totally distrustfull of eachother now and all hope of a new middle east are dashed.

I think Israel should NOT withdraw from the territories now until we see palllys doing some seriouse progress against terror. I would like to leave those places as fast as possible, its cancer to our sociaty, but its allso a bargening card which without it I doubt the PA will do anything to stop the terror and dismantle the terror network.

My work in the army is as a War room NCO in a base in the north. I can tell you we get 60 average calls a day to terrorist alerts. Thats as high as it was before PA agreed to stop fighting, meaning we dont see any seriouse progress here. Its hard to feel safe listening every few minuts to a new terror alert,
My hope is in the security fense.


Jerusalem should be split, its jewish part part of Israel and the eastern part Palestinien. The old square will be split by its holy quarters to each Nation.

Right of return to palestiniens is a red line to every Israeli, even the palestinien-loving Israelis which smoke weed and talk about world peace, right of return is a death sentance to Israel. We fought too hard to gain this country to lose it to statistics of demography, sad, maybe unfair, but reality none the less.

I think Israel should NOT withdraw from the territories now until we see palllys doing some seriouse progress against terror.

Yes that is feasible, considering that the IDF destroyed the Pals. security apparatus. The only way to stop terror is simple, stop terror. Israeli terror mus end before Pals. why? It was Israel in 1967 that illegally occupied the W.Bank and Gaza. Do you honestly expect the Pals. to sit back and be conquered by Zionists? :rolleyes: Israel defends herself with a hige military Pals. defend themselves with terror. I see no difference.

My hope is in the security fense

I think it that has the Berlin wall effect, it will only make the Pals. want to kill you more. It will not help the situation at all, there are towns in the W.Bank that are going to be cut or surrounded, and Illegal settlements like Arial are going to steal land with this wall.

Jerusalem should be split, its jewish part part of Israel and the eastern part Palestinien. The old square will be split by its holy quarters to each Nation.


Sounds good, but what about the Israeli settlers living in the East?

Axes let me ask you some questions, what do u think about settlers? and should they live under Pal. control?

Originally posted by nico
I think Israel should NOT withdraw from the territories now until we see palllys doing some seriouse progress against terror.

Yes that is feasible, considering that the IDF destroyed the Pals. security apparatus. The only way to stop terror is simple, stop terror. Israeli terror mus end before Pals. why? It was Israel in 1967 that illegally occupied the W.Bank and Gaza. Do you honestly expect the Pals. to sit back and be conquered by Zionists? :rolleyes: Israel defends herself with a hige military Pals. defend themselves with terror. I see no difference.


In this point we defer in our opinions. I think Israel is way more carefull in conserving civilian casualties than the US, brittain and surely russia. The number of civilians killed in 2 weeks of campeign in Iraq are 3 times higher than 2.5 years of intefadah. IDF destroyed the PA's security groups because they were aiding the terror organizations and not preventing it. did you expect us to sit idle?

1967, known fact was a war of agression from the arab side, though we should have immediately left the territories we captured. (on that note i dont think the arabs were ready for peace after that humiliation).

Palestiniens do not defend themselvs with terror since terror started this whole conflict, its absence will end it. Remember palestiniens are beeing occupied for 30 years, the intefadah is 2.5 years old. you didnt see IDF military operations before.

PS: there are other ways of defence except terror.

b]My hope is in the security fense

I think it that has the Berlin wall effect, it will only make the Pals. want to kill you more. It will not help the situation at all, there are towns in the W.Bank that are going to be cut or surrounded, and Illegal settlements like Arial are going to steal land with this wall.


Berlin wall was to keep civilians INSIDE, the Israeli security zone is to keep terrorists OUT. big difference. And yeah I agree with you it should be built on fairer ground (pally wise) so all or allmost all palestinien towns will be on the other side.

Jerusalem should be split, its jewish part part of Israel and the eastern part Palestinien. The old square will be split by its holy quarters to each Nation.



Sounds good, but what about the Israeli settlers living in the East?

They should be evacuated willingly or not, and given proper payment from the goverment to build a new life inside Israel.

Axes let me ask you some questions, what do u think about settlers? and should they live under Pal. control? [/B]


I think most settlers are people who bought houses there cause they are way cheaper than Israel proper, but the "idealistic" ones are scum, pure and simple. religiouse or nationalistic fanatics who have very little reguard to palestinien life, and will single handedly ruin our own country if we let them have their way. They are the cancer of our nation allthough they see themselvs as the true zionists.

I am a zionist and a proud one. But i believe zionism is OVER. we got our country, if we start colonizing places afterwords, its just like old europe and I dont like that idea at all. We jews shouldnt be a conquering people, it goes against all my ideals.

I am a zionist and a proud one.

Ok Axes I am warning you now ok, you are going to be lambasted on this one. Good luck!

I think Israel is way more carefull in conserving civilian casualties than the US, brittain and surely russia.

Certainly more than Russia, but the UK is VERY careful on civie deaths, they don't want to seem imperilistic. But Israel is notorious for it's tactics against Pals. Like mouseholing, or telling a man in a house to come out and be used as a shield against a terrorist. Israel has shown it is a calious state in Jenin, and the seige in Bethlehem. The Israeli's truly don't care for the standard of living for the average Pal either by the week long curfews and the like.

Palestiniens do not defend themselvs with terror since terror started this whole conflict, its absence will end it. Remember palestiniens are beeing occupied for 30 years, the intefadah is 2.5 years old. you didnt see IDF military operations before.


Yes terror did start this whole conflict in 1967, when Israel invaded. You cannot blame the Pals for fighting you, you occupied there land, settling on it, and stealing there water. What do you want? Pal. terror is wrong, but it is justifiable, same with israeli. 1967 was the operation before Axes.

Berlin wall was to keep civilians INSIDE, the Israeli security zone is to keep terrorists OUT. big difference. And yeah I agree with you it should be built on fairer ground (pally wise) so all or allmost all palestinien towns will be on the other side.


This wall isn;t to keep the Pals. inside? LOL, please man don't play these games. As long as settlements like Arial exist you won't see peace anytime soon.

Also Axes I hope you realize that a true Jew shouldn;t be in Israel! Let the games begin!

let's colonize iraq:D

Originally posted by nico
I am a zionist and a proud one.

Ok Axes I am warning you now ok, you are going to be lambasted on this one. Good luck!


I doubt it


I think Israel is way more carefull in conserving civilian casualties than the US, brittain and surely russia.

Certainly more than Russia, but the UK is VERY careful on civie deaths, they don't want to seem imperilistic. But Israel is notorious for it's tactics against Pals. Like mouseholing, or telling a man in a house to come out and be used as a shield against a terrorist. Israel has shown it is a calious state in Jenin, and the seige in Bethlehem. The Israeli's truly don't care for the standard of living for the average Pal either by the week long curfews and the like.

Then explain the high civilian casualties in Iraq. more than 7000 dead.

Mouseholing, telling a man in a house to come out, human shields, yeah its wrong I agree, commanders do it against the basic laws that created the army in 48', they should be diciplined, some commanders do it others refuse no matter what OUR casualties are. You wont hear on BBC "today Israeli commanders were carefull in,...".

My friend was in a reserve unit in operation defensive shield, they entered a home and had to destroy a couple of walls, alot of them were in the peace movement others just sentimental, they each gave some 70$ to the family (at the commanders encouragement). some 3000$ was given. Things like that you wont hear on the news.

Palestiniens do not defend themselvs with terror since terror started this whole conflict, its absence will end it. Remember palestiniens are beeing occupied for 30 years, the intefadah is 2.5 years old. you didnt see IDF military operations before.


Yes terror did start this whole conflict in 1967, when Israel invaded. You cannot blame the Pals for fighting you, you occupied there land, settling on it, and stealing there water. What do you want? Pal. terror is wrong, but it is justifiable, same with israeli. 1967 was the operation before Axes.


1967, pre-emptive action, totally justified in my opinion.


Berlin wall was to keep civilians INSIDE, the Israeli security zone is to keep terrorists OUT. big difference. And yeah I agree with you it should be built on fairer ground (pally wise) so all or allmost all palestinien towns will be on the other side.


This wall isn;t to keep the Pals. inside? LOL, please man don't play these games. As long as settlements like Arial exist you won't see peace anytime soon.


Some of the biggest settlements are too big to be evacuated, thats why I said about 67' borders. if arial stayes Israeli then Palsetiniens will get other land instead.

Also Axes I hope you realize that a true Jew shouldn;t be in Israel! Let the games begin! :D :D :)


2 years ago this sentence would have enraged me, but there are alot of people who dont believe we have a right to exsist. Its all fun for liberal europiens to feel sorry for a jew whos landless and open to abuse, but the "macho" Israeli who wont turn the other cheek, oh that is too much

Sorry bro got carried away, I guess it still does disturbe me, But since my family felt the death camps on their skin, we pretty much understand why we need our own country, even if you dont.

Damnit nico how do I quote and reply without my own format beeing lined?

I know it man!

1967, pre-emptive action, totally justified in my opinion.


Yes I agree, but was the occupation of Gaza, Jerusalem, W.Bank, Golan, and the Sinai nesscary? The war was justifiable not the occupation. Israel was doing it's "Greater Israel" scheme.

Some of the biggest settlements are too big to be evacuated, thats why I said about 67' borders. if arial stayes Israeli then Palsetiniens will get other land instead.


This idea makes sense, but the question becomes will the land they get be in the Negev where no one can live or in hosbitble land?

2 years ago this sentence would have enraged me, but there are alot of people who dont believe we have a right to exsist.

I never said you don't have a right to exist, of course you do. But Israel is not supposed to be around today.

Sorry bro got carried away, I guess it still does disturbe me, But since my family felt the death camps on their skin, we pretty much understand why we need our own country, even if you dont.

Okay about this Jewish homeland, since Jews aren't a race, we have to look at it in a religious perspective. Now Many Jews don;t believe in Israel and actually believe it is a sin. The Torah says that Jews are not supossed to return to Israel until the comming of the messiah. But that seems to be neglected, which is one of the big boys in the Torah.

http://nkusa.org/

http://nkusa.org/Activities/Demonstrations/20July03/londonny0703.jpg

Even Jews think that Israel and Zionism are evil.

Okay about this Jewish homeland, since Jews aren't a race, we have to look at it in a religious perspective. Now Many Jews don;t believe in Israel and actually believe it is a sin. The Torah says that Jews are not supossed to return to Israel until the comming of the messiah. But that seems to be neglected, which is one of the big boys in the Torah.

Even Jews think that Israel and Zionism are evil. [/B][/QUOTE]

Race, people, as long as they see themselvs as one... "entity?" then it doesnt really matter does it. Like any people who see themselvs as different deserve self-determination. Jews arnt supposed to return to israel until... well too bad zionism isnt religiousely based :)

Israel is Evil? how can you name a country evil? so does france have no right to exsist since it killed over a seventh of the population of algieres? Sometimes I wonder...

Of course it does, a country is based on a race, and that race has always been there. Jews are not a race, Hebrews are. They should have a Israeli state. Israel is a Pariah state. Isreal is not based on anything but Zionism, it's like saying that NK is a real state. (NK and Israel are VERY similiar) I suggest you read this to realize this:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...&threadid=23570

Jews arnt supposed to return to israel until... well too bad zionism isnt religiousely based


But then if it is not then who does it represent? Not Jews obviously.

Israel is Evil? how can you name a country evil? so does france have no right to exsist since it killed over a seventh of the population of algieres? Sometimes I wonder...

I don't care about the evil-ness of countries so, sorry if you think I meant that. But France has always existed as a country even before Roman times, Gaul. The Brits the Americans and Israel have all done what the French did in Algeria.

Originally posted by nico
Of course it does, a country is based on a race, and that race has always been there. Jews are not a race, Hebrews are. They should have a Israeli state. Israel is a Pariah state. Isreal is not based on anything but Zionism, it's like saying that NK is a real state. (NK and Israel are VERY similiar) I suggest you read this to realize this:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...&threadid=23570

Jews arnt supposed to return to israel until... well too bad zionism isnt religiousely based


But then if it is not then who does it represent? Not Jews obviously.

Israel is Evil? how can you name a country evil? so does france have no right to exsist since it killed over a seventh of the population of algieres? Sometimes I wonder...




I don't care about the evil-ness of countries so, sorry if you think I meant that. But France has always existed as a country even before Roman times, Gaul. The Brits the Americans and Israel have all done what the French did in Algeria.



A country has to be based on Race? Funny cause what will that make palestiniens? they are arabs, arabs have a few countries so... does it mean they have no right for self-determination? WRONG, palestiniens identify themselvs as a nationality, not egyptian or jordanian.

Americans arnt a race, but they deserve their country, so this argument is pretty much over.

Israel was accepted by the UN, so it is not a priah state, period.

Vast majoirty of the time.

Funny cause what will that make palestiniens? they are arabs, arabs have a few countries so... does it mean they have no right for self-determination? WRONG, palestiniens identify themselvs as a nationality, not egyptian or jordanian.


Well the thing is that Arabs consider themselves to be a race as one, the nations of the Arab world are made up but the Imperialistic nations of Europe and the Ottomans. So they never really had a chance. And you must agree that none of the Arab leaders would give up on there own countries. Now Arab states are also Pariah so you are not alone.

Americans arnt a race, but they deserve their country, so this argument is pretty much over.

Race is only one aspect of the Pariah state, I suggest you read the link I gave you there are 4 reasons for Pariah, Israel pretty much fits all of them. Also no state in the Americas has a race based country.

Israel was accepted by the UN, so it is not a priah state, period.

Not really, the Arab states did not agree. So it was not really fair was it? Now thus it lacks some legitimacy so yes it is Pariah!

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23570

Try that.

So if the Arabs descide they dont like the Idea of france on the map then its priah? :P

Seriousely bro those 4 reasons are your opinion, but they dont apply to the world so they dont really matter. UN is built on majority descitions, not 100% agreements cause that most likely will never happen. Majority descided on creating a jewish state.

Its allmost 1 am here i gotta take the 6 am train to base so im gonna say Gnight :) was fun arguing with you. See ya in 2 days.

No, because it France territory is not in contention. Israel wasn't even in existance. And Arabs were the vast majority in Palestine before the Jews came. 700,000 Pals were forced to leave, sound fair.

Seriousely bro those 4 reasons are your opinion, but they dont apply to the world so they dont really matter.

It would be true if I provided no examples, but I did so yes it is VERY much a fair theory. I just think you don't want to admit that Israel is Pariah.

;)

UN is built on majority descitions, not 100% agreements cause that most likely will never happen. Majority descided on creating a jewish state.


But that dosen't create legitmacy. That is what matters, Israel needs to get recongized from the Arabs to be at least of a Pariah.

Originally posted by nico
But that dosen't create legitmacy. That is what matters, Israel needs to get recongized from the Arabs to be at least of a Pariah.


it does create "legitimacy" (an interesting word. think what it means for a second). israel doesn't require "recognition" from arab states to gain "legitimacy" from the world. arabs can whine all they want about "illegal" this and "illegal" that...when they base the "illegal" on their own twisted legalities

Don't be coy with me otheadp.

israel doesn't require "recognition" from arab states to gain "legitimacy" from the world.

I suggest you think about the word, world. There is this huge void in the "world" that dosen't recognize you.

when they base the "illegal" on their own twisted legalities

Just like the UN saying that the occupiation of the Pals. land is twisted? LOL... RIGHT! ;) Your too funny.

give me some resolutions that were passed re "UN saying that the occupiation of the Pals. land is twisted"
also, whether it was security council or general assembly, and what was the vote count.

and don't forget the votes are never objective. the oil factor is very influencing.

Don't be coy with me
what's that supposed to mean?

and re "world recognition", the majority of the world is enough. and it's a big ass majority, not a 51-49%

Originally posted by otheadp
give me some resolutions that were passed re "UN saying that the occupiation of the Pals. land is twisted"
also, whether it was security council or general assembly, and what was the vote count.
and don't forget the votes are never objective. the oil factor is very influencing.

Hmmm. Let's see here...
http://www.vicpeace.org/fact-sheets/FactSheet6vpn.pdf
http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/special-edition/terrorism50/unresolu.htm
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

Don't be a arrogant shit with moi ok. :p

and re "world recognition", the majority of the world is enough. and it's a big ass majority, not a 51-49%

World is all not some get it, good. ;)

Great links and accroding to your sources the US should be getting ready to invade other violators of the UN S.C:

Israel
Turkey/Cyprus
Morocco
Croatia
Armenia
Sudan
India/Pakistan
Indonesia


So when will that happen Bush? Don't you value the UN S.C Bush? LMFAO! :rolleyes:

WCF
Oh I was aware of that. sure the contracts go to the winners of war and its allies, its not called war profiteering for nothing.

Then why would you ask weither other nations that have corporate ventures in Iraq to be vile , or taking over , as you are aware the one who is there is the one winning the war . That is not Iran nor Syria but USA and Israel .

Also as for Israel achieving its biblically foretold holly land when that happens Jesus will come back and annihilate or convert all disbeliever, isnÂ’t it just wonderful how the world is rule by christen fundamentalist that pay the Jewish state solely for the purpose of bring back their god?

It is , Christian zionists who try to speed up their desired second-coming of whoever are quite influential in the USA and its government .

Or what about the Jewish zionists themselves ?

But lets not forget the atheists who really wanna just make a buck or 2 as every profit points to Israel since everybody is trying to push it there .

And when everybody in power agrees on the same thing , a system develops that takes it over , you could call it dialectics IMO .

Syrian
So, I am not that worried.
we kick the american ass from Iraq, IsraHELL will be back on the black list.

Well I am very worried because :
A) We wont be kicking out anybody they will only leave if they chose to do so (surely we can help them chose) .
B) As soon as they are out there is Anarchy and Israel is coming in . Do not think they will miss out on a chance as this one , they have means they have motive and no Arab army could do anything about it .

And dont forget there are 2 other Hawks on the lookout for Arab land , the Turks and the Iranians .

I doubt that UN could deal with :

* internal anarchy
* pressure from Israel/Turkey/Iran to come in .

Endless optimism is Arabs self-betrayel and has been for the past 100 years .

Face it we wont do shit we should have stayed with the Turks from the beginning . :(

Nico :
a country is based on a race

Is the racist in you loose again ? Should a country be based on race ? What bullshit is that ?

Hebrews are. They should have a Israeli state.

No they shouldnt , and they dont exist anymore either . Should you white boys have a cave-state because thats your original land ? I dont think so ....

No you are full of bull on this one Nico ....
The Jewish race argument has little to do with this .

it's like saying that NK is a real state

Its more real than Belgium I can tell you that . Screw your race bull ofcourse a state can base itself on ideology .

Now Arab states are also Pariah so you are not alone

Based on race their a pariah state as well even if one on your defintions . I think you misunderstand pariah , if the peoples believe it , then it becomes real . If you dont agree , then my argument is that race isnt real either go check biology section .

So if you can make that up , you can make everything else as well .

Race is only one aspect of the Pariah state, I suggest you read the link I gave you there are 4 reasons for Pariah

Yes we're familliar with your "3 out of 4" logic but thats not scientific so im told . So your pariah defintion goes to waste dude .

Also no state in the Americas has a race based country.

What race ? A white one ? So then why wouldnt Yugoslavia be a non-pariah state ? They're all white ? Why are they different ? Because they consider themselves so ? because their defintion of race is more detailed ?

I say pariah depends weither peoples are in agreement with what they are unified by . If they believe they are the same then that is so . Pariah is usual fase between agreement and destruction . Israel is not in that . Nor is NK .

I just think you don't want to admit that Israel is Pariah.

He shouldnt its not anymore . It was when there was the questions with the Ethiopians and all those incoming Arab Jews , but now its not anymore that serious of a difference issue , they all consider themselves Israeli today .

Lets hope it becomes Pariah soon again .

Axes :
That map of a "greater israel" from tne nile till the euphrates. I never saw it in israel, I never heard of it beeing put in schools or used for education, and I never heard an Israeli (yes and I am fond of political arguments with my fellow citizans) say we need that kind of land. The biggest fanatics wanted an Israel ruling both sides of the jordan river but that was 50 years ago, most Israelis support the Idea of 67' borders more or less. So what if there are fanatics who want more? its the majority that counts.

I really cant understand the point of the map or the implication that we are trying to "settle" iraq..

* You have never seen it as a map ? Rumors say its in some governmental room (I dont say its not so I say I dont know at this minute) . And you should very well know about that coin , that was no joke that scared my peoples into doomsday .

* It was policy before Israel was created even , and we know that the rightwinged zionists of Likud (the rulers remember?) come from that very line of LEHI/Irgun through Heirut that persued this goal of a greater Israel .

* Its not that Israeli colonization of Arab land is the most unthinkable thing ever . I mean lets have a bit self-honesty here , its there its colonized and shit it isnt even 3 years (is it ?) since you pulled out of Lebanon and you still hold Golan and lets not mention the shithole thats left out of Palestine .

I mean ..... you cant blame a person for not trusting your expanionist policy one bit , cant you ?

* And then there's settlers who are ... well what they do is simply actualize this proces , I mean thats what they do . They go into a land and settle there ... sure they havent settled in Iraq yet , but why wouldnt they ? Is that land not Gods given ?

* And then there's that loony tunes group of yours who throw rocks on peoples who drive cars on sabbath , lol . But i think they're importance is overrated (although they are vastly growing and your bring-em-in policy of birthright & co is doing em a nice job) they are not who's talking Likud is .

In any ways I understand its your propaganda group , thats why that Kahane group was put on "terrorist" list , lol . I mean you're doing a fine job holding the "extremists" down this way and the Palestinians are not . Its brilliant , but thats old news .

Anyways your settlement in Iraq is first of all corporal , we are seeing Israel and Zionist-Amerikan companies settle there and create an environment prosporous to Israeli interests . I mean maybe you can start organizing some tours in the future , and surely the first loony Brooklyn settlers would come in with their Hussain-hate .

But I personally believe it might go a bit different , Iraqi will resist and the casualties on USA side will be too much . They will if their peoples whine , however anarchy makes it attractive for as well Israel as Turkey and Iran . USA has little problems ofcourse with Israel and Turkey (toobad for the Kurds) especially if Iran and "fundamentalists" are fighting on the other side .

In any ways the interests are open for everybody to see , the motivations of all those surrounding nations are obvious . Israel is just one of them , however they always seem to end up on the winning side :rolleyes:

But for that map ...... you know you should see it in the exact same way as you see the Palestinian goal ultimatly to be Israeli destruction , so is the Israeli goal ultimatly expansion into actualization of inhabiting your Eeretz Ysroel as a whole .

Times change things change

Yes we know Gurion was the socalled left ...... and now we have the socalled right . Hey I think we made a similar shift ..... oh wait no we didnt . But Israel would want us to , yes sir .

I think Israel should NOT withdraw from the territories now until we see palllys doing some seriouse progress against terror. I would like to leave those places as fast as possible, its cancer to our sociaty, but its allso a bargening card which without it I doubt the PA will do anything to stop the terror and dismantle the terror network.

You are aware that your on the wrong moral side when we are talking about the occupation of Gaza & WB are you not ? I understand your tactical consideration , but a moral consideration it is not .

However as far as tyactical goes : Now there is Hudna , and now you can show for yourselves .

Forget dreaming about dismanteling however , they are our army for as long as we dont have a Palestinian state . Just like your armies where LEHI and Irgun , and just as you did (create a state and include them as political influences under a national military) so will we .

Also ..... lets not forget the policy the Likud is having with this Intifadah . Hamas has only gotten stronger and PA weaker . You cannot ask a cop to get a crook while kicking him . PA infrastructure is totally done with Arafat is proud owner of a wall , I mean be honest a bit ok ?

PA is in no position whatsoever to stop any terror , or they would have to wage civil war to force things . And Israel has happily helped this proces .

I can tell you we get 60 average calls a day to terrorist alerts. Thats as high as it was before PA agreed to stop fighting, meaning we dont see any seriouse progress here.

Your allerts are irellevant , what is relevant is assaults .

Its hard to feel safe listening every few minuts to a new terror alert,

"feeling" safe is depending on your state of mind as much as it depends on the situation outside of it . As I said your alerts are of no use , your assaults are .

Right of return to palestiniens is a red line to every Israeli, even the palestinien-loving Israelis which smoke weed and talk about world peace, right of return is a death sentance to Israel. We fought too hard to gain this country to lose it to statistics of demography, sad, maybe unfair, but reality none the less.

I actually understand this point very well , however you are indeed right it is no way near fear ...... but hey your entire existence there isnt fair so .... nothing new .

I think the right of return is only relevant in a 1 state solution , in a 2 states solution I see no reason why Palestinians cannot be in their state . However all I would want to see in return is $ and souvereignity . IMO we could even become allies one day , and maybe in years both Israeli opinion as well as Palestinian might shift . But economical equality is necesarry for this , you stole the land and you chased away the peoples .
Least you could do is pay up .

My hope is in the security fense.

If our side of the fence can be as nice as yours I have no issues .
You just pay up and IMO everything can be settled .

there are other ways of defence except terror.

Wanna trade toys ?

a tank for a belt ? no ?

Palestiniens do not defend themselvs with terror since terror started this whole conflict, its absence will end it. Remember palestiniens are beeing occupied for 30 years, the intefadah is 2.5 years old. you didnt see IDF military operations before.

No , Israeli occupation started this whole conflict . And no there is occupation for 55 years but ok .... I understand how you reason from 67 .

Anyways there is little logic to your reasoning here . You say :

* We occupied
* They didnt do nothing
* Now they do
* And thats why we act out .

It doesnt really make the point that terrorism started anythng , sine you already occupied . BTW terrorism didnt start this Intifada but in 94 . And before 94 there werent any talks about a state of Palestine .... so we did something good dont you say ?

They should be evacuated willingly or not, and given proper payment from the goverment to build a new life inside Israel.

All settlers outside of Israel ?

I am a zionist and a proud one. But i believe zionism is OVER. we got our country, if we start colonizing places afterwords, its just like old europe and I dont like that idea at all. We jews shouldnt be a conquering people, it goes against all my ideals.

See IMO we could get thing sorted , as I am not opposed to zionism by its definition , not even in Palestine . However I do believe in equality and a peacefull life for all peoples , and I believe you might just as well . However both your as well as mine peoples extend you and me , and they extend todays generation , or yesterdays or those of tomorrow .

Zionists will always want the big piece , and we will always oppose even a shitty piece . Our cultures ask it , our religions ask it , even the Christians seem to agree . Be it today , tomorrow or over 200 years there has to be a clash eventually , it is written we are destined everybody agrees . On our day you get lost , on yours babylon falls and for the Christians they get to see Jesus again .

And then there is the rest who simply wants to make money and does so because of the entire situation .

I mean , do you honestly think this could ever be settled ?

same with israeli. 1967 was the operation before

Excuse me ? And hows that ? Did they play with play-doh ore-67 ?

I think Israel is way more carefull in conserving civilian casualties than the US, brittain and surely russia.

I agree , however this is not because of moral superiority (well maybe it is compared to the russians , lol)

1967, pre-emptive action, totally justified in my opinion.

pre-emptive leads to circular logic . The whole self-defence thing is being switched into self-attack , I mean ..... come on now .

Anyhow , occuying a peoples is justifiable ? Yes for your own good it is , but thats ethical egoism and shows your bias , but I cant blame you for that .

But since my family felt the death camps on their skin, we pretty much understand why we need our own country

Now apart from actuality (if thats possible) , do you historically support zionism ? I know families who've been through that , and their opinion is really quite opposite of this . And as far that I can understand zionism , its bloody history and its anti-semitical psychology , I can understand very well why . But what I dont know is your position toward this . It is mentioned before but you didnt get into it .

Its a shame , your position would be a very interesting one .

but there are alot of people who dont believe we have a right to exsist.

And you dont , what right do you have ? The entire : we need Israel argument is full of lies and racism , and itself its an appeal to pity .

Dont get me wrong I agree that every peoples (no matter how they're related as long as they feel 1) who want should have self-determination . However the way how , and where is what determines its righteousness . You dont have any of that , yours is simply an unwanted colony as many others have been/are .

Race, people, as long as they see themselvs as one... "entity?" then it doesnt really matter does it. Like any people who see themselvs as different deserve self-determination.

IMO you are right as stated above , however you do understand the importance for the entire : justified Israel argument . The argument of Israel was : its our land since Roman times .

The Jews were regarded as a race (the whites from Europe) and it has been the reason for the establishment of the Jewish state .

Im happy you agree its not a race (as few zionists would) , but by this you destroy your original argument for the country . Are you aware of this .

well too bad zionism isnt religiousely based

You know what I think is pretty funny . How God gave you the land , but lots of you dont really believe in God . I mean honestly , if I would be Arik ..... I would just die over this one .

so does france have no right to exsist since it killed over a seventh of the population of algieres?

Im for an Arab state in France
(well not in ... just as replacement)

:)

If they pay up we can settle them as well .

Anyways your conclusion is incorrect as France actually left Alegria (sort of) into their own land ..... but you dont have that and are still there .

is built on majority descitions, not 100% agreements cause that most likely will never happen. Majority descided on creating a jewish state.


So you think because certain nations have more power than others but they are not directly involved should have ability to decide ? The Arabs have more to say about their own lands than the Brits of French who stole and occupied it .

But then again , I didnt expect another point of view as zionism requires to come from elsewhere in the first place , so who cares what the region has to say .


Otheadp
when they base the "illegal" on their own twisted legalities

I was hoping you can provide your own argument for this legitamcy of yours that isnt based on deity imaginations , racism , or ..... but we're there now ..

give me some resolutions that were passed re "UN saying that the occupiation of the Pals. land is twisted"


LOL

USA vetoes everything , lol .

majority of the world is enough

What world ? The ones in power ? Oh get real man learn something about life instead of trying to make wrong right in your head with your zionist justifications all day .

Clockwood :
MUTUAL expoitation. Its the basis for all trade and it helps people both sides. Nobody trades unless they can make some money off of it.

What are you talking about ? Your companies are going to install peoples there who run and pay them to do so , those peoples will be our trators as they sell out the peoples wealth to you since you pay them to do so .

There is absolutely no talk of an Iraqi exploiting an Amerikan/Israeli as visa versa is done .

That should mean Iraq will have less money to work with and will have an even slower recovery.

Here is that appeal fallacy WCF was talking about , funny .

Anyways , you have a good point somewhere . We would be better of if we would not resist and let the colonists rebuild it IF thats what they wish . Then when they're done we should chase them out ....... allas thats not gonna be possible anymore by then

By definition trading helps. You give them something you dont need in exchange for somthing you do or the money to buy it with. Iraq gives oil and Israel or whoever else is buying gives money, goods, or services to Iraq.

Very nice , however this way we are used to sell out our wealth TO THE ENEMY because we are in a bad position . So no , trading is not good by defintion . There is no choice , it is robbery with a smile and flower .

If its not benificial for you to trade with somebody you just find somebody else to trade with

Sure ...... that is if there would be the FREEDOM to pick our business partners . hello ? Are you just up or what ?

Its not like a pipeline will suck the oil out of iraq without anybody's control.

Its in controll of YOUR ALLIES hello ? are we there ? anyone home ? You're the law there , remember ?

Ghassan Kanafani,

I did not know Israel was part of that war? Iran hated saddam as well if they have any corprate ventures in iraq they sould be considered with Israel.

But lets not forget the atheists who really wanna just make a buck or 2 as every profit points to Israel since everybody is trying to push it there .

Really? I don't, It seems like a rather unstable market to me, China seems to stay clear of Israel and they are very atheist.

To me race is a signifcant factor in a nation, now sure maybe race dosen't exist. But to the vast majority of ppl in the country they think they are a race and that's that. I mean a white person is not a black person are they? They are the same race? No, would a white majority country decleare itself black? No. Not all nations are based on race granted, in the Americas because each country is a result of immigration race cannot really play a role. Now I don't think that a Spanish,Italian and Portugese ppl are different,they are basicly the same race. Some races like the Arabs are heavily mixed, but they are like the Mestizos they are a race,distinct physical characteristics.

Should a country be based on race ?

A country should be based on race, sure why not? What is wrong with that? You put a negative connotation I don't.

No they shouldnt , and they dont exist anymore either . Should you white boys have a cave-state because thats your original land ?

Are we so sure? Iran and the Caucasus is where my anestors are from, and since you are near that region same for you. So Cave dwellers we are all decened from them.

Its more real than Belgium I can tell you that . Screw your race bull ofcourse a state can base itself on ideology .


Belgium is a interesting case, I mean she could be split in two one side goes to France and the other to the Netherlands. But NK/SK has no reason to be independant apart from ideology. Which in the end of the day is dangerous and faux.

I think you misunderstand pariah

Of course since it's my own theory I would misunderstand it. LOL common man!

Yes we're familliar with your "3 out of 4" logic but thats not scientific so im told .

Science, so what? Is religion a waste as well? I believe in a god does that make me stupid? Science is for it's realm politics, and religion are on it's own.

So then why wouldnt Yugoslavia be a non-pariah state ?

Yugo was VERY much a Pariah, Slav, Greek, Magyar, Albanian and German. Then not to mention the linguistic differences, the religious one's and the fact that ideology is the only thing that kept her together.

A country whose sole basis is ideological will always be Pariah, no matter how much of faux nationalism is built it is nothing more than a sick manifestation of someone's imagination.

WellCookedFetus

I did not know Israel was part of that war?

Not military no . But hey lets be realistic here , the whole war was
because of Israel , to them Saddam was a danger . He could seriously militarize the resistance in Palestina that he supported with passion . He could indeed get WMD and start nuking .

Saddam was Israel's biggest enemy in the ME , dont forget that . They're on to this one as never before , they're zionist alliance within USA is bigger than the Brittish be sure of that .

Just not military . I say thats smart for now .

Iran hated saddam as well if they have any corprate ventures in iraq they sould be considered with Israel.

How should they be considered with Israel ? Iran and Israel arent going along together does interests are not shared . Iran wont be allowed to get a hand in Iraq and Israel will have Bagdad where she wants , how are they to be considerd the same ?

Really? I don't, It seems like a rather unstable market to me, China seems to stay clear of Israel and they are very atheist.

No dont misunderstand me please , I was speaking about the atheists in the West and USA specifically . There is a Jewish zionist ideologic interest as well as a Christian zionist ideologic interest . However atheists wont have any of those interests other than economical ones , wich should make up for it . That was my point , and as I think about it .... they do have ideologic ties : Israel is considered western democracy .

Nico :

To me race is a signifcant factor in a nation, now sure maybe race dosen't exist. But to the vast majority of ppl in the country they think they are a race and that's that

Yes indeed ........ they THINK , get my point . NK thinks and so does Israel ....... oh how does Israel think they're thye most stubborn believers you will find around .

They're more aware of their "race" then any Frenchman or whatever is .

What is wrong with that? You put a negative connotation I don't

So then in itself its irellevant ?

Are we so sure? Iran and the Caucasus is where my anestors are from, and since you are near that region same for you. So Cave dwellers we are all decened from them.

Dont fanatsize tomuch on Iran lets stick with Tiblisi shell we ?

Anyhow I have some other mix so there's a chance I can stay :D

The point is that there is no relevant original point you can choose and base it on . What ios relevant is what the peoples believe at that moment , as they construct value to race by psychologic motives and sociologic means .

Belgium is a interesting case, I mean she could be split in two one side goes to France and the other to the Netherlands

Why ? They dont feel French nor Dutch , and I dunno bout the French but the Dutch sure dont accept them as Dutch .

And besides , there's no racial difference whatsoever , and that was my point .

NK/SK has no reason to be independant apart from ideology.

So ?

Race is then no longer an issue you cant count it as those peoples dont believe in it . Their race is Juche . comprende ?

Of course since it's my own theory I would misunderstand it. LOL common man!

LOL wait na minute , it doesnt exist ? No Im sure I read more about this doo somewhere ...... wait :

Hey check what cool book I found :
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/pariah-contents.htm

Anyways there were 142.000 google hits so there must be something out there .

If not ... then consider your theory failure as race is mentally fabricated in the way of your sociologic use of it , thus its equal to ideology thus can replace it .

Science, so what? Is religion a waste as well? I believe in a god does that make me stupid? Science is for it's realm politics, and religion are on it's own.

* yes believeing in omniscientic/omnipotent creautures does make u stupid . Its amazing how u religious fellows can seperate things like that . Its all about the premis I guess ?

* politics IMO should be approached scientific , I understand that its a mix of several issues (jornalism/philosophy etc) but it all should be approached in logical way very the least .

Its very simple we can debate race on anthropological level , but in politics its nothing but an ideologic issue . There is no race , you have no logical distinction of things , it simply fits the bias that is pre-set . That is why you cant tell me why Yugoslavia whites are different races and USA white is not .

A country whose sole basis is ideological will always be Pariah, no matter how much of faux nationalism is built it is nothing more than a sick manifestation of someone's imagination.

What other basis are there ? Your race is imagined as you have no logics for it . Your Blacks in America are not mono-racial nor are your whites there .

And also , 3/4 logics doesnt go u need exclusion .

Yes indeed ........ they THINK , get my point . NK thinks and so does Israel

:bugeye: Well maybe Israel, but not NK. If NK thought that was true why would they call SK's brothers? Now you and me know that NK is no different than SK in terms of race. Now Israel well that is a mosaic race.... LMFAO!

They're more aware of their "race" then any Frenchman or whatever is .

Too bad it dosen't exist, hey I believe I am Jesus believe me? :rolleyes:

So then in itself its irellevant ?


Well no because IMO race is not a bad thing, it seperates us humans from each other. Is that bad? No, because it makes us create distinct cultures and mores. You GK believe and put a negative connotation to race. That is your opinion and it's justifiable as is mine.

Dont fanatsize tomuch on Iran lets stick with Tiblisi shell we ?

Well Iran may have been a strecth but it is certainly where Indo-European culture orginiated from. And instead of Tblisi, let's say....... Batumi, nice and hot. :)


The point is that there is no relevant original point you can choose and base it on . What is relevant is what the peoples believe at that moment , as they construct value to race by psychologic motives and sociologic means .


So GK you are telling me there is NO difference btwn a Nubian, a Caucausiod, a Sino, and a Indian, or a Inca? Common man. Race exists.

Why ? They dont feel French nor Dutch , and I dunno bout the French but the Dutch sure dont accept them as Dutch .


Belgium is very interesting wouldn't you say so? I am wondering since Belgium itself only dates to the early 1800's is it based on Imperialism?

And besides , there's no racial difference whatsoever , and that was my point .

You are right that Belgium has no racial difference.

Race is then no longer an issue you cant count it as those peoples dont believe in it . Their race is Juche . comprende ?


Oh ALLAH! LOL, but seriously Juche is a ideology you are adding fuel to my arguement. Juche is ideology which is transformed in nationalism. Thanks GK.

LOL wait na minute , it doesnt exist ? No Im sure I read more about this doo somewhere ...... wait :


Well that is rather interesting... but I like mine better. : p

politics IMO should be approached scientific

AS long as you recongnize it's your opinion. See the problem I have with science and politics is that politics itself really can't be proven. It is abstract, like conscience it is there but science can't really prove it's existance. Can we prove Communism? Can we prove a theory? No.

That is why you cant tell me why Yugoslavia whites are different races and USA white is not .

Well there are main races in the world:

Black
Mongoloid
Turkic
Han Chinese
Indians
Cacaususoid
Semetic
Natives in America (may be different types but not aware of them)


So these are the main divisions of race in the world, now the rest is cultural differences, and you yourself GK are indeed a culturalist.

GK
you're a crackhead.
you keep changing your standing on things every other post and your logic is simply non existant. it's impossible to even argue with you.

reading your posts is the highlight of my day becuase i literally laugh out loud when i read them.

keep up the good humor :cool:

Im happy it is you who is saying so Othead , now do as I said go sit in the corner and bow down .

And no dont make things up I dont change my standards only when I am wrong and become aware . However no such incorrectness has accured while communicating with you .

Should we otherwise recap your glorious intelligence ?

Now be a good little boy and read the previous post and try to let those undevelopped braincells do their jobs , yes ?

Come on I havent heard a funny thing yet today , give it a shot .

Nico :

Well maybe Israel, but not NK. If NK thought that was true why would they call SK's brothers? Now you and me know that NK is no different than SK in terms of race. Now Israel well that is a mosaic race.... LMFAO!

Ok , indeed I believe they consider SK brothers . But obviously there is huge difference between the 2 , however NKoreans might simply not even be aware of this (hey its Orwellian who knows whats in their crazy minds) .

Israel is a made up race/culture/peoples , but they all believe it and slowly it has developped into an "Israeli" from Israelite .....

Hey you might say the same for Amerikans ...... in a sense (and in some cases) .

Too bad it dosen't exist, hey I believe I am Jesus believe me?

Frenchman as a race doesnt exist either . You believing your Jesus is just as much as you believing you're a race . What race are you ? The "creole" race ? lol .

The point is , in the current way you are using race its sociological wich and has its essence in an idea rather than scientific reality .

Well no because IMO race is not a bad thing, it seperates us humans from each other. Is that bad? No, because it makes us create distinct cultures and mores. You GK believe and put a negative connotation to race. That is your opinion and it's justifiable as is mine.

* How does race seperate human other than in merely physical difference ? How important is physical difference , how important should it be ?

* Race doesnt make us create distinct cultures one bit you're full of bull , culture is totally irrelevant of race . The fact that physical difference comes along just as culture does for a peoples doesnt make the one depend or relate in any way to the other .

* I put negative connotation to value race in the manner as you do . I also think its worthless to value something you have no idea of how the structure is . Your list of races later on is hilarious .

Well Iran may have been a strecth but it is certainly where Indo-European culture orginiated from. And instead of Tblisi, let's say....... Batumi, nice and hot.

No it didnt originate in Iran where did you get this from ? Why do you pick Iran ?

So GK you are telling me there is NO difference btwn a Nubian, a Caucausiod, a Sino, and a Indian, or a Inca? Common man. Race exists.

Yes there is difference , but you can view race in various ways :

* Todays lables of race are completely insignificant to almost anmything other than sociologic makeover .

* There is no biological evidence that can prove the existence of race . (That doesnt mean any cant be found though)

Check out : http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25513

Belgium is very interesting wouldn't you say so? I am wondering since Belgium itself only dates to the early 1800's is it based on Imperialism?

everything eventually is .

Oh ALLAH! LOL, but seriously Juche is a ideology you are adding fuel to my arguement. Juche is ideology which is transformed in nationalism. Thanks GK.

read again : Race is then no longer an issue you cant count it as those peoples dont believe in it . Their race is Juche . comprende ?

Obviously no comprende there , the point was that racial-value has been replaced by ideological value . This referring to where I say that racial and ideological are 1 and not 2 items as both are made up (one philosophically another sociologically) .

Well that is rather interesting... but I like mine better. : p

yours already failed
:D

AS long as you recongnize it's your opinion. See the problem I have with science and politics is that politics itself really can't be proven. It is abstract, like conscience it is there but science can't really prove it's existance. Can we prove Communism? Can we prove a theory? No.

Yes a political theory can be proven by the practice of it
:rolleyes:

There's no difference whatsoever as you put it .

Well there are main races in the world:

Black
Mongoloid
Turkic
Han Chinese
Indians
Cacaususoid
Semetic
Natives in America (may be different types but not aware of them)

So these are the main divisions of race in the world, now the rest is cultural differences, and you yourself GK are indeed a culturalist.

Oh yes I surely discriminate based on culture no doubt about that .

However as far as races go , your list is just hilarious . There's no logic in it whatsoever .

Look :

*Turkic = mostly Caucasoid (and some bit Mongoloid maybe)
*Semetic = Blackish skin ... so what is Black ? (also semtic might have some Caucasoid as well)
*Indians ? lol
*Chinese=Mongoloid (mostly)

In anways , check out that thread this list is worthless .

You might as well have said :

*Brown
*White
*Yellow
*Red

lol

Frenchman as a race doesnt exist either . You believing your Jesus is just as much as you believing you're a race . What race are you ? The "creole" race ? lol .


There is no such thing as a creole race it is a culture. But I am essentially a white person.

How does race seperate human other than in merely physical difference ? How important is physical difference , how important should it be ?


It shouldn't be that important but it is, that is reality. GK your getting somewhat idealistic here. Apartheid, if that wasn't based on racial difference than I don't know what is? Zionist Apartheid as well, also you yourself always say that Jews in Israel aren't Hebrew, but white. Thus you yourself are putting value into race.

Race doesnt make us create distinct cultures one bit you're full of bull , culture is totally irrelevant of race . The fact that physical difference comes along just as culture does for a peoples doesnt make the one depend or relate in any way to the other .


Well are we sure, look at the US. They live in the same region and yet whites and blacks have a very different culture. How so?

No it didnt originate in Iran where did you get this from ? Why do you pick Iran ?


I could have sworn that Iran was the origin of Indo-European culture.

There is no biological evidence that can prove the existence of race . (That doesnt mean any cant be found though)


So there is NO genetic role in the colour of our skin, nose size, hair texture? LMFAO:rolleyes:

Obviously no comprende there , the point was that racial-value has been replaced by ideological value . This referring to where I say that racial and ideological are 1 and not 2 items as both are made up (one philosophically another sociologically) .


THAT is exactly my hello GK, don't you see. NK is ideological as you say, thus Pariah. No real reason to exist other than to maintain the ideology.

You might as well have said :

*Brown
*White
*Yellow
*Red

Sure why not?

About the races, then there are what three main races:

Mongoloid
Black (Nubian)
Cacasusoid.

This you cannot deny can you? lol.

yours already failed

According to whom? Pariah still makes logical sense thus still burning. :D

It shouldn't be that important but it is, that is reality. GK your getting somewhat idealistic here.

The question was not weither others give it value , but your valuation of it . That is a should , and yes it surely was idealistic but I do not expect any lower of an intelligent person .

also you yourself always say that Jews in Israel aren't Hebrew, but white. Thus you yourself are putting value into race.


I give it anthropological & historical value , not any other . They are the ones who give race value as they chose a race to be , I merely show the anthropological incorrectnes . Do I care they are white and not purple ?

Well are we sure, look at the US. They live in the same region and yet whites and blacks have a very different culture. How so?


Many dont , many Blacks are just as amerikan as a white or jewish amerikan . Same with latino's etc .

That is why I said : in certain cases . No its most definetly not a majority .

I could have sworn that Iran was the origin of Indo-European culture.

Why ? And why allofasudden its culture that matters to you know , and not race ?

So there is NO genetic role in the colour of our skin, nose size, hair texture? LMFAO

Read that thread

THAT is exactly my hello GK, don't you see. NK is ideological as you say, thus Pariah. No real reason to exist other than to maintain the ideology.

race is just as ideological , made up . Dont you get it ? You say you're white , but whats that ? A color , what ? You made you are white , just as they made up they are juche supporters . Their creation is philosophical , yours is sociological (and psychological) .

You cant dismiss ideology as fabrication while you do not the same with race , wich is just as fabricated .

Sure why not?

This is what im talking about .... sure why not ? Come on now are we making up things here and just go with it as they suith ? I might as well said Chinkey race , Hooknose race , Waterhead race and Hairy race . Wtf ?

Mongoloid
Black (Nubian)
Cacasusoid.

This you cannot deny can you? lol.


read that thread if you care to know .

According to whom? Pariah still makes logical sense thus still burning

You have a 3/4 situation where 2 of the 4 are in essence the same , no it failed dude . No logical sense there .

Now I think this debate should end, not because I can't answer your posts. But the reason why is because we have different ideologies. You feel that race is only a mechination of our minds. Ok that is your view, I dispute that since these two things are not the same:

http://search.csmonitor.com/durable/1999/09/10/csmimg/p19s1g1.jpg

To me these two are physically different. It is natural, it is human, race is a distinction. Should we make people less because of there race? No, but many people do. Black, white, Yellow, Red whatever you are you are different. Now I am a realitvely intelligent person who happens to believe in race. About this DNA thing, how is then that someone is black, and someone is white? Using the logic of no race then should we all born the same skin color, no one should have different nose sizes? I don't buy it, but I am not wiling to into that racial debate either. That is why I think this part of the debate should end. It's not like I am going to change your mind, and visa versa. So let's call it a truce.

About this pshycologists have 3/4 to check for mental illness, or doctors with a disease. And those things are scienticifly proven. Thus yes it does make logical sense, if a country fits all four then hooray!

Also the 4 are not the same, more like they are intertwined:

1) False nationalism based on ideology
2) Extreme militarism to safeguard the ideology,et all.
3) ostracize the local population
4) Imperial map making

I don't think those are the same.

Nico

I agree we should end the debate on racial reality , however because of different reasons .

The most important reason is that in an argument as such I would have to quote what would be in the other thread I linked you to , and i think you can do very well reading it there (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25513) .

I ams asking you to do so because you are simply uninformed , and based on that your premisses are fals . If you would actually read it you would see that I understand very well your point on racial reality .

And yes you would change your mind , as so have I . You just read the thread and you will find yourself more informed I promis .

The Ideological problem however I have with you isnt based on this biological understanding of race , but rather the misuse you have for it based on psychological factors within sociological context .

The fact that you cannot appoint some race in a logical sense (as your list proved) , shows the sociological makeover of it .

What I object most is that you were valueing these races your "race" in moral/asthetical ways .

But I think you pretty much gave up this position , did you not ?

Now as for your Pariah ... :

About this pshycologists have 3/4 to check for mental illness, or doctors with a disease. And those things are scienticifly proven. Thus yes it does make logical sense, if a country fits all four then hooray!

No because there is no exclusiveness . Scientifically nothing is proven how you put it , however there is an assumption of a certain chance of a disorder .

Your 3/4 checks for mental illness do not prove anything , they indicate possibility . The point however with your possibilities was that there is no logic to them :

1) False nationalism based on ideology


See this doesnt exist , there is no such thing as true nationalism based on something else then ideology . Nazi germans were no more true nationalists than zionists in this sense .

2) Extreme militarism to safeguard the ideology,et all.

I dont agree with this is a strong point either , and you try to escape these difficulties by saying 3/4 , but really ......

You look at NK as you already consider them Pariah , then you see that they have a strong military , just like others you consider Pariah .

I do understand the need you see to include militarization into this , but there are quite some situations in wich such militarization can develop and I think you should rather need to look it there and formulate clearly rather than unclearly and betting on 3/4 .

3) ostracize the local population

Again everybody can do that

4) Imperial map making

Another one everyone can do .

I think your entire method to distinguish these ideas of a certain type of state you have , sucks . lol

You form some idea about unnatural states , who are rather small and act crazy , and you see what they have in common (sort of) .

I mean IMO you dont need exclusiveness to the bone , sure we can give it some slack , but this is like :

* it has a tree
* and flowers
* and earth

thus its a garden

know what i mean ?

You and me disagree on race, I understand where you are coming from. That we all intermixed and thus no real race. But of course that can be disproven by the fact that the black race is pure, and we all decend from them. FIN!

See this doesnt exist , there is no such thing as true nationalism based on something else then ideology . Nazi germans were no more true nationalists than zionists in this sense .


Well I see where you are coming from, but a state like NK, or Israel are Pariah due to the fact that the original basis of both states was ideological. They were both imposed on the people without there say. (Albeit NK claims that Koreans voted for a communist government). German nationalism existed well before Nazism you know that (I hope). Now about the Jews they are for all intents and purposes a homelandless "people". Which only makes Pariah that much worse.

You look at NK as you already consider them Pariah , then you see that they have a strong military , just like others you consider Pariah .


:confused: I assume GK this had a point? lol

I do understand the need you see to include militarization into this , but there are quite some situations in wich such militarization can develop and I think you should rather need to look it there and formulate clearly rather than unclearly and betting on 3/4 .


Militarism can either be defensive or offensive. Now Pariahs have it both (usually), they can defend and invade with efficentcy.

Again everybody can do that


They can, but do they? No, theres the difference.

Another one everyone can do .


Ohh yes of course East Timor is going to imperialize Austrialia. LOL

think your entire method to distinguish these ideas of a certain type of state you have , sucks . lol


Personal value judgement... ignored.

know what i mean ?

;) GO PARIAH!

Anyways GK this thread has gone on.. I believe the biggest tanget EVER on WEP! LOL. Iraq...trade...?

Nico

I understand where you are coming from. That we all intermixed and thus no real race. But of course that can be disproven by the fact that the black race is pure, and we all decend from them. FIN!

No you dont . And you also dont read that thread . remain ignorent then your loss .

NK, or Israel are Pariah due to the fact that the original basis of both states was ideological. They were both imposed on the people without there say.

So if its with their say it would be different ?

Albeit NK claims that Koreans voted for a communist government

My point exactly . So how then do you not distinguish this ?

Now about the Jews they are for all intents and purposes a homelandless "people". Which only makes Pariah that much worse.

Why ? Nomads have always created states , non-pariah according to your definitions.

I assume GK this had a point? lol


yes and that point is that you a certain flow over several states and you wish to link them together , but they are not the same . So you ake up several characteristics you see , and you bring in the 3/4 method even and there you go you have a defintion , but thats not how it works .

You would have to do better than those 4 points of yours for a clear defintion .

Militarism can either be defensive or offensive. Now Pariahs have it both (usually), they can defend and invade with efficentcy.

the point usually in militarization lies within a geo-poilitical situation , oftenly under threat . Perhaps you can look for it there .

They can, but do they? No, theres the difference.

Many do who you do not consider pariah .

Ohh yes of course East Timor is going to imperialize Austrialia. LOL

No , come on now dude . But obviously more non-pariah states are created out of imperial mapmaking than pariah , so where's that essence ? It has no relevance , and imperial mapmaking ....... in the end everything is made like that . There is no natural its all created by us .

Personal value judgement... ignored.

Not really , the point is that you see something that links states , and then you look for similarities , you come up with a general view (who you can make exceptions to ) and think you have it defined .

Really NK and Yugo arent the same , Israel isnt like anybody , etc etc . Your classification doesnt add up .

* You have never seen it as a map ? Rumors say its in some governmental room (I dont say its not so I say I dont know at this minute) . And you should very well know about that coin , that was no joke that scared my peoples into doomsday .


Rumor posted as fact, Ive never seen it. Even stern gangs maps were of a fantasy country of israel/palestine+jordan. no 2 rivers theme.

* Its not that Israeli colonization of Arab land is the most unthinkable thing ever . I mean lets have a bit self-honesty here , its there its colonized and shit it isnt even 3 years (is it ?) since you pulled out of Lebanon and you still hold Golan and lets not mention the shithole thats left out of Palestine .


We did a terrible mistake leaving S.lebanon without an agreement, now hisbullah borders us and keeps making excuses for small-scale attacks. We will leave the golan one day, but with a peace agreement in hand.

I mean ..... you cant blame a person for not trusting your expanionist policy one bit , cant you ?

You DO remember who started the six-day war dont you?
:bugeye:

In any ways I understand its your propaganda group , thats why that Kahane group was put on "terrorist" list , lol . I mean you're doing a fine job holding the "extremists" down this way and the Palestinians are not . Its brilliant , but thats old news .

!?!?! so when we do something good then its propaganda and when its bad then it is... "evil". When its relevent we dont care shit about PR and when it isnt suddenly we dont give a shit about it? how can I argue the facts this way!?


Forget dreaming about dismanteling however , they are our army for as long as we dont have a Palestinian state . Just like your armies where LEHI and Irgun , and just as you did (create a state and include them as political influences under a national military) so will we .


Lehi and Irgun consisted of about 1,300 members, while haganah (mainstream movement) about 35,000. Irgun and lehi were shunned by most people as fanatics, and WERE dismantled after a terrorist attack against an arab village, their ammunition ship bombed to submission... Unlike hammas and jihad which ARE mainstream in the palestiniens mind.

PA is in no position whatsoever to stop any terror , or they would have to wage civil war to force things . And Israel has happily helped this proces .


Oh PA actually contributed to the terror. When we did bomb their facilities we notified them and warned them before so they could evac the buildings... oh the horror... :D


Your allerts are irellevant , what is relevant is assaults .

Wrong. 95% of attempts to infiltrate Israel or initiate attacks are thrawted by the IDF intellegance units, so it would have been pretty close to 60 attacks if we did not work around the clock to stop them, so yes totally relevant cause it showes the PA hasnt done a thing to stop terror.

I think the right of return is only relevant in a 1 state solution , in a 2 states solution I see no reason why Palestinians cannot be in their state . However all I would want to see in return is $ and souvereignity . IMO we could even become allies one day , and maybe in years both Israeli opinion as well as Palestinian might shift . But economical equality is necesarry for this , you stole the land and you chased away the peoples .
Least you could do is pay up .

return to THEIR state yes, not to OURS. 3 million palestiniens in Israel is the end of our nation. And yes I dream of co-exsistance, cause it could lead to economic prosperaty of the whole regon.
We did not steal the land it was practically empty and coverd with swamps before we dried them up. We bought the land legally from turkish(military) and arab(trible) leaders. Most palestiniens fled the land, we actually tried to stop them in Haifa and a couple of other towns, appealing to their leadership to stay.


there are other ways of defence except terror.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Wanna trade toys ?

a tank for a belt ? no ?


So the only popular resistance in your opinion is terror?
Look at india for exsample. Or attack only military targets, why kids?


Anyways there is little logic to your reasoning here . You say :

* We occupied
* They didnt do nothing
* Now they do
* And thats why we act out .

We offered over the years numerouse times to negotiate with the PLO, they said they will fight to the end and never recognize us, until oslo 93'. oh and we occupied land that was OCCUPIED by jordanians and egyptians that themselvs captured the land illigaly, palestiniens never actually HAD that land.


pre-emptive leads to circular logic . The whole self-defence thing is being switched into self-attack , I mean ..... come on now .

Anyhow , occuying a peoples is justifiable ? Yes for your own good it is , but thats ethical egoism and shows your bias , but I cant blame you for that .


After 67' the biggest question in Israeli politics was "how to prevent another war". Israelis split on this to 2 factions. The defensive ones (IE likud) and the Pieceniks. Defense said "arabs will allways try to attack us, our only chance is a strong military and strong defensive borders" IE suez cannal, jordan river and golan mountains. Their theory was that with these borders we will be safe. Pieceniks agreed that at that moment the arab nations were so humiliated they would not agree to any settlement but in the future we had to leave those lands because of:

a: Morality.
b: Peace.

This conflict of minds still goes on.




Now apart from actuality (if thats possible) , do you historically support zionism ? I know families who've been through that , and their opinion is really quite opposite of this . And as far that I can understand zionism , its bloody history and its anti-semitical psychology , I can understand very well why . But what I dont know is your position toward this . It is mentioned before but you didnt get into it .


I dont really understand what your getting at.

good post, brother.

for future, make sure you highlight the nonsense that GK writes so we can seperate his confused propaganda from your words.

Othead . I have to say that I think you have found the best position to defend your ideology and history in a debate : cheerleading .

:D

I think its a shame though , you're so much funnier when you assert your own ideas .

Axes

Rumor posted as fact, Ive never seen it. Even stern gangs maps were of a fantasy country of israel/palestine+jordan. no 2 rivers theme.

* What about the coin ?
* Stern maps Ive never seen , however there have been quite some peoples who seem to want the biblical Israel :

Ben Gurion :

* I am satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state--we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel. (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 107 & One Palestine Complete, p. 403)

* No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land Of Israel. A Jewish state in part is not an end, but a beginning ..... Our possession is important not only for itself ... through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a [small] state .... will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country." (Righteous Victims, p. 138)

It seems to Davey Green had the same ideas as the Stern (as you have put it) . So there wasnt any difference between them ?

Jabo seemed to have different thoughts :

*I devote my life to the rebirth of the Jewish State, with a Jewish majority, on both sides of the Jordan. (Israel: A History, p. 76)

But much nicer even is this article :
John Mitchell Henshaw - Israel's Grand Design: Leaders Crave Area from Egypt to Iraq (http://www.mediamonitors.net/johnhenshaw1.html)

Ofcourse , our friend Daniel Pipes (http://www.danielpipes.org/article/247)
has all the answers we need on those nasty rumors :rolleyes:

I wonder though , how exactly would you explain the expansionist policy of Likud ? I mean , is there an end to it ? And see thats the thing , the only end in sight is biblical Israel .

We did a terrible mistake leaving S.lebanon without an agreement, now hisbullah borders us and keeps making excuses for small-scale attacks. We will leave the golan one day, but with a peace agreement in hand.

But dont you understand that this is not a way to negotiate ? Yes from your perspective its a way because Arabs (outside Palestine-Israel) dont recognize your existence and dont WANT to negotiate on that . However you cannot better your position by taking whats not yours to have something to bargain for . Cant you understand that when I want you to listen to me , I cant take your car and demand recognition or else Im not giving it back . Thats not any way to base a relation of trust on , what do you think that 2 words switched about peace change the entire situation ?

In anyways I made the point on colonalization of Arab land to point out that its not unthinkable that Israel would consider to re-colonize .

But again based on my last post and whats been said in this one till now , can you understand that there is no way for an Arab to trust you ? Not only on the entire expansionist issue , but about everything that has been used to gain land has been on lies , while there was a time (and in some peoples eyes its still so) that the very existence of peoples in Palestine pre-zionism was questioned . Do you remember Golda ?

It was not as if there was a Palestinian people in Palestine and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them

Im sorry but ..... whats left ? Where is there any possibility for trust ? And that with this Likud government ? how ? tell me

You DO remember who started the six-day war dont you?

You can give me the eye on this one , but it really doesnt change any facts .

!?!?! so when we do something good then its propaganda and when its bad then it is... "evil". When its relevent we dont care shit about PR and when it isnt suddenly we dont give a shit about it? how can I argue the facts this way!?


First nobody mentiones evil ,Im sure your used to Jewish demonization by Arab propaganda but Im not into that .

As for good , how was it good for anybody than yourselves ? Do you think there is a difference between actions comitted by such groups rather than IDF ? Do you think that "intention" and "situation" and all those other wonderfull ways to talk straight bullits in heads , make any difference ?

Its merely a how , not a what . And you always care about PR , where did I say u didnt ? PR is the most relevant thing in your strategy .

In anyways the point to be made is that you have managed greatly to present Palestinian resistance as extremism to be dealt with , while at the same time you would need yourself an extreme position as well to show for . Surely your extreme position is simply your rightwing (secular rather than religious) , not in any way difference than with ours (except that ours is religious) , but to do so you need peoples in positions to point at as well .

Thats why its so brilliant for you to have your own little terrorist groups , it makes the right-wing in your state look more "normal" .

Lehi and Irgun consisted of about 1,300 members, while haganah (mainstream movement) about 35,000. Irgun and lehi were shunned by most people as fanatics, and WERE dismantled after a terrorist attack against an arab village, their ammunition ship bombed to submission... Unlike hammas and jihad which ARE mainstream in the palestiniens mind.


* If they are mainstream how come they TOGETHER only hold 30% ? How come Arafat was elected in the way he was ?

* If they are mainstream , dont you think its time to start negotiating with them rather than "minority" PA (PLO) ?

* The LEHI and IRGUN were only dismantled after there was AFTER the declaration of independance AFTER the IDF came officially into existance .

And they were shunned as fanatics (as you say) however just like Hamas , they were the ones bringin in some serious progress .

And also , the dismantlement was a military one , to be considered a simple distinction between a political fraction and included military in the IDF , as is logical in a state .

And thats the difference , I dont see a conventional Palestinian military (and you wont ever allow one as the Palestinian state ought to be demilitarized in your opinions (which is understandable you feel that way)) , nor do I see a state this military can function in . Therefor considering your own history , there is nothing other than hypocricy to demand another to do otherwise , to his own disadvantage .

Oh PA actually contributed to the terror. When we did bomb their facilities we notified them and warned them before so they could evac the buildings... oh the horror...

Very nice of you , however that does not change the fact that you destroyed their facilities , only for groups like Hamas (who originally IS a social movement rather than military) to fill the gap , the demand by the Palestinian peoples , as PA can no longer provide as decent .

In other words , your destruction of PA infrastructure has created a situation in wich Hamas could gain popularity by taking care of the social needs of the peoples .

Now Hamas is bigger then ever , while PA is left in their undies at your feet . Surely now PA wants peace , surely Hamas thinks twice about it . I dont think that an intenral conflict rising out of this situation never passed Arik's mind , nor wouldnt he have ever seen the potential advantages of such a conflict/confrontation . Oh yes , and that would lead us back to the wonderfull expanisionism mentioned previously .

Wrong. 95% of attempts to infiltrate Israel or initiate attacks are thrawted by the IDF intellegance units, so it would have been pretty close to 60 attacks if we did not work around the clock to stop them, so yes totally relevant cause it showes the PA hasnt done a thing to stop terror.

First of all , it is the resistance who has declared Hudna , the PA has no authority over Hamas and others in this sense . Secondly , are you here claiming that even though right now there is Hudna , they are attempting to attack you ?

Then why do they fail ? Why dont they fail otherwise ? Are you super-motivated and are they dismotivated by Hudna , or what ?
What the deal ?

return to THEIR state yes, not to OURS. 3 million palestiniens in Israel is the end of our nation.

Yes , as I said . In a 2 state solution it is Palestine as a new state they would be returning to . Be it that its not moral in any way (even if u pay up) , I understand your point of view very well . But how would you then look at the million Arabs who are in Israel now ? Dont you think they will threaten your existance as a state ?

We did not steal the land it was practically empty and coverd with swamps before we dried them up.

OMG its Golda . Dont lie to yourself like this man . The land was inhabited by Christian (almost half) and Muslim Arabs as well as Arabic Jews .

We bought the land legally from turkish(military) and arab(trible) leaders.

Im sorry but weither its officially legal because you pay Turkish colonists and Arab leaders , it does not make it morally any different when you decide for the fate of a peoples that live on that land , nomatter who thinks he has the owner papers .

Most palestiniens fled the land, we actually tried to stop them in Haifa and a couple of other towns, appealing to their leadership to stay.

They had very good reasons to leave the land (no not for the "Arab leaders told them" excuse )

And you tried to stop them ? Im sorry but not even Santa Claus would try to stop them .

I mean come on now man , lets be a bit honest to ourselves here . There were 700.000 peoples who have fled , and you were with the same numbers . There's no way you could hold a state together in such a situation , your altruistic assertions are a bit toomuch dont you think ?

So the only popular resistance in your opinion is terror?
Look at india for exsample. Or attack only military targets, why kids?

Oh not Ghandi again ..... lol . You as a person who has lost family in the holocaust should know better than such a peacenik mentality .

As for kids , yes there are kids attacked , however thats not even 1% of what you call terrorism .

Military targets are hardly possible , its simply stupid to attack the IDF . However there are bureaucratic as well as economical targets that IMO should be attacked other than what happens today .

But as far as "civillian" targets go , not being active as an combatant doesnt make you a civillian . Being a civillian also doesnt make you not-responsible . There is a big difference between a mature functioning "civillian" from Tel Aviv then from Misouri . And the difference isnt merely that he's a member of IDF .

We offered over the years numerouse times to negotiate with the PLO, they said they will fight to the end and never recognize us, until oslo 93'.

And how exactly does this make your failing occupation-logic any more sensible ?

oh and we occupied land that was OCCUPIED by jordanians and egyptians that themselvs captured the land illigaly, palestiniens never actually HAD that land.

* Others actions toward that land do not justify yours .
* Palestinians would prefer Jordanian/Egyptian colonization than Israeli .

a: Morality.
b: Peace.
This conflict of minds still goes on.

And that will never stop untill there is enough moral ground for you to be left in peace .

I dont really understand what your getting at.

You have family in the holocaust so I assume you are from Ashkenazim/Yiddish decend . That is what makes it for me interesting how you can embrace zionism if you hold in mind its historical essence :

* Ideologically zionism is based on self-hate and racism . Zionism is more than anything Anti-Yiddishism .
* In Germany (and other Europena nations) zionism has encouraged the nationalist movements (as they were one of them) even when those movements were anti-semitic (because the colliding interests and self-hate ideology) . This went as far as actual collaboration within the very system that has caused the holocaust , as well as active collaboration to support the holocaust itself as long as needs for Palestine were met .

I surely understand how you would embrace the post 42 zionism at it attacked nazism together with the commies , but are we forgetting what happened between 1917 and 1942 ? Do you not care in any way what zionism has caused to your own peoples in that period of time ?